1911 Slide to Frame Slop

[George Barrientos]

I have a new Colt Combat Elite that rattles when I shake it gently
from side to side. The slide to frame fit is pretty loose. The pistol
shoots well enough but the sloppy slide to frame fit makes me feel
like I paid top dollar for third rate quality . How does this affect
the weapons performance ?

GB

[Lone_Wolf]

In <54l8mp$j...@xring.cs.umd.edu> geor...@onramp.net (George Barrientos) writes:

#I have a new Colt Combat Elite that rattles when I shake it gently
#from side to side. The slide to frame fit is pretty loose. The pistol
#shoots well enough but the sloppy slide to frame fit makes me feel
#like I paid top dollar for third rate quality . How does this affect
#the weapons performance ?

Two ways, which cancel each other out (there are probably more, these are
what I can think of offhand).

1. Slight reduction in accuracy
2. Slight improvement in reliability (more tolerance for dirt/grime/whatever)

A sloppy frame-slide fit is NOT at all unusual on a 1911 -pattern firearm...

James

#GB

[geoff beneze]

In article <54l8mp$j...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, geor...@onramp.net (George
Barrientos) wrote:

# I have a new Colt Combat Elite that rattles when I shake it gently
# from side to side. The slide to frame fit is pretty loose. The pistol
# shoots well enough but the sloppy slide to frame fit makes me feel
# like I paid top dollar for third rate quality . How does this affect

# the weapons performance ?

Unless you're shooting bullseye level, the rattle is not only normal, but
desirable. The tighter the fit, the more apt any small bit of junk is to
bind the action.
--
geoff beneze (geof...@primenet.com)
******************************************************************
* Arizona Shooting Sports * BEAST Gunsmithing *
* http://www.primenet.com/~geoffben * Target Stands *
* The unofficial Dillon Tech Page * Air & Smallbore Postals *
* NRA Life member * *
******************************************************************

[Robert Christman]

George Barrientos wrote:
#

# I have a new Colt Combat Elite that rattles when I shake it gently
# from side to side. The slide to frame fit is pretty loose. The pistol
# shoots well enough but the sloppy slide to frame fit makes me feel
# like I paid top dollar for third rate quality . How does this affect
# the weapons performance ?

#
# GB
While this is a little unusual in factory guns, all Colt 1911's (other
than target only guns) have some play in the slide to rail area. The
military spec for this gun required it to operate when covered with mud,
sand, etc. Therefore a tight fit that would jam in this instance was
not possible. I have shot many a military gun that rattled with no
accuracy problems (at least in the sense of a duty weapon). There are
tools that a good gunsmith can use to tighten the slide up, and this is
one of the things done to create a match level gun, but the drawback is
in reliability in a field environment. If your gun shoots well enough
for you, leave it alone.

Bob C. NRA Life USN (Ret)

P.S. My own observation, the only Beretta M9 I ever had dealings with
jammed solid after the gun was dropped in soft sand. Had to be
completely disassembled (not easily either) and cleaned. I am not sold
on the open topped slide on this gun!
B.C.

[Mark Yaworski]

George Barrientos wrote:
#
# I have a new Colt Combat Elite that rattles when I shake it gently
# from side to side. The slide to frame fit is pretty loose. The pistol
# shoots well enough but the sloppy slide to frame fit makes me feel
# like I paid top dollar for third rate quality . How does this affect
# the weapons performance ?

You answered most of your own question. The pistol shoots well. Loose
tolerances in semi-autos mean that the gun is less likely to cease
functioning when it gets dirty. That is one of the reasons that GI
1911s were loose compared to a National Match 1911.

[Terry Hicks, PATRIOT]

George Barrientos wrote:
#
# I have a new Colt Combat Elite that rattles when I shake it gently
# from side to side. The slide to frame fit is pretty loose. The pistol
# shoots well enough but the sloppy slide to frame fit makes me feel
# like I paid top dollar for third rate quality . How does this affect
# the weapons performance ?

#
# GB

The 'Readers Digeat' condensed answer is this: The looser the slide to
frame fit, the more reliable it functions. The tighter the slide to
frame fit, the more accurate it shoots. And vice-versa. You have to
find a satisfactory medium. Sorry, sometimes life's a compromise. Hope
this helps.

[Dick Wells]

I have heard those who should know say that 15% of the accuracy is in the
slide to frame fit. You might try a group gripper which seems to take up
all the bbl-slide frame tolerances at the back only
Regards, RW

[Dave Re]

George Barrientos wrote:
#
# I have a new Colt Combat Elite that rattles when I shake it gently
# from side to side. The slide to frame fit is pretty loose. The pistol
# shoots well enough but the sloppy slide to frame fit makes me feel
# like I paid top dollar for third rate quality . How does this affect
# the weapons performance ?

Uh, you did say "new Colt", right??? Third rate quality is no
suprise...

--
Dave Re |"Here I stand at the crossroads edge
OIT/O&E/TS/ISD | afraid to reach out for eternity.
da...@undertow.oit.gatech.edu | One step, when I look down
| I see someone else not me."
| "Someone Else", Queensryche

"I keep looking back at someone else ... me?"

[Robert Christman]

Dave Re wrote:

# Uh, you did say "new Colt", right??? Third rate quality is no
# suprise...
#
Just for the record, a stock, non target model 1911 should have some
looseness in the slide to frame fit (for reliability). I just purchased
a "new Colt" .380 Govt. Model Pocketlite. Fit is good, accuracy if
super (for what it is, a pocket pistol), finish is very good. All in
all, a very nice little gun (when I need a little gun, i.e. when my
Commander is too big to carry with the clothes I am using). I was quite
pleased with the accuracy (I checked the fit and finish before I bought,
but couldn't shoot it first) as it shot nice groups at 25 feet with
three different loads (PMC ball, W/W Silvertips, and 88 grain
handloads). I have heard all these stories about "bad" Colt products,
and can't help but wonder what the actual percentage is, after all they
do sell a lot of guns. The Colt products I have examined in stores seem
fine, but of course, I can't shoot them for a couple of months to really
tell. Ten years ago S&W went through a period of less than sterling
quality, then came back up to their old standards (or near them anyway),
hopefully Colt, now that it has reorganized again, will get back to
quality control.

[Steve Breland]

On 25 Oct 1996 09:13:24 -0400, Dave Re <da...@undertow.oit.gatech.edu>
wrote:

#George Barrientos wrote:
##
## I have a new Colt Combat Elite that rattles when I shake it gently
## from side to side. The slide to frame fit is pretty loose. The pistol
## shoots well enough but the sloppy slide to frame fit makes me feel
## like I paid top dollar for third rate quality . How does this affect
## the weapons performance ?
#

# Uh, you did say "new Colt", right??? Third rate quality is no
#suprise...
#

#--
#Dave Re |"Here I stand at the crossroads edge
#OIT/O&E/TS/ISD | afraid to reach out for eternity.
#da...@undertow.oit.gatech.edu | One step, when I look down
# | I see someone else not me."
# | "Someone Else", Queensryche
#
# "I keep looking back at someone else ... me?"
#
Hmmm. I keep reading complaints about Colt quality, but that's not
been my experience. I purchased two 1991A1's (.45 acp) and an HBAR
Sporter in 5.56mm this year. The trigger on one 1991 is good, the
other was just OK. Yes, I paid to have it fixed. All three weapons
were so-so in reliability for the first 50 to 100 rounds. After that
break in period, no problems at all. For that matter, the Springfield
1911 I bought last spring also shows good workmanship and demonstrates
fine reliability. Heck, the low serial number stainless Colt Series
80 I purchased new back in '85 never, I mean never, fails to feed. It
has around 30,000 rounds through it. I do replace recoil springs as
needed, and the slide stop broke at around 28,000 rounds, but the
weapon still functioned. (I finished the match.)
After having gone through most major brands of semi-autos I find the
1911 design, and the Colt implementation of that design, to be the one
for me. YMMV.

-Steve Breland

[geoff beneze]

In article <54rsbe$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Robert Christman
<rjch...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

# and can't help but wonder what the actual percentage is, after all they
# do sell a lot of guns. The Colt products I have examined in stores seem
# fine, but of course, I can't shoot them for a couple of months to really
# tell. Ten years ago S&W went through a period of less than sterling
# quality, then came back up to their old standards (or near them anyway),
# hopefully Colt, now that it has reorganized again, will get back to
# quality control.
#
# Bob C. NRA Life USN (Ret)

In keeping with my current theme of the "Myths of the guns world", I have
to say that this is probably another of those kind of deals. Much like the
Proctor and Gamble "devil worship" trademark and MacDonald's horse meat
burgers, things like this get blown out of proportion and become a
lifetime legacy.

Colt did go through some hard times and this was reflected by the product.
The fact that it happened ONCE, or for some specific time frame does NOT
mean that it's a permanent condition. However, to hear the self appointed
experts (here) one occurrence is all it takes.

Wisdom, frequently, is knowning how little one actually knows.

[Andrew T Piskorski]

In article <54rsbe$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Robert Christman <rjch...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

#Just for the record, a stock, non target model 1911 should have some
#looseness in the slide to frame fit (for reliability). I just purchased

HOW MUCH? What is the optimum for best accuracy and reliability? Is there
any actual hard data on this?
--

--
Andrew Piskorski
a...@hopper.unh.edu

[Robert Christman]

Andrew T Piskorski wrote:
#
# In article <54rsbe$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,

# Robert Christman <rjch...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
#

# #Just for the record, a stock, non target model 1911 should have some
# #looseness in the slide to frame fit (for reliability). I just purchased
#
# HOW MUCH? What is the optimum for best accuracy and reliability? Is there
# any actual hard data on this

Hard data, probably not. John Browning designed the gun with a loose
slide to meet military test requirements. Gunsmiths tighten it up for
match guns to improve the accuracy. What the best measurements are for
a particular gun would depend on the desired use of the gun, cartridge
and load used, etc. I'm sure a good smith will be glad to give you his
opinion. My Combat Commander doesn't "rattle", but the slide will move
slightly on the rails. I have shot military .45's that rattled a lot,
and still shot well with ball ammo and standard fixed sights on a 25
yard course of fire. The real, serious dollar, target guns are very
tight, just enough space to allow the slide to move back and forth.
They also are very unforgiving of changing ammo, dirt, fouling, etc.
They also need tuned up more frequently to maintain this fit.

[Frank Lindquist]

This has significantly changed with Les Baer Built Matched Frames & Slides.
Les Baer uses a forge/initial machine/heat treat/surface grind process -
that produces slide to frame fit of .001" inches *by design & mfg* .

Ed Brown, amoung others, also uses the Les Baer Frames & Slides -
finding them extremely accurate & reliable.

This eliminates the built up "high spots" that occur when frames are
peened or slides are squeezed to obtain a tight fit.

regards,

Frank

[Jim Rasmussen]

On 29 Oct 1996 09:38:59 -0500, a...@kepler.unh.edu (Andrew T Piskorski)
wrote:

#In article <54rsbe$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
#Robert Christman <rjch...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
#
##Just for the record, a stock, non target model 1911 should have some
##looseness in the slide to frame fit (for reliability). I just purchased
#
#HOW MUCH? What is the optimum for best accuracy and reliability? Is there
#any actual hard data on this?
I noticed that Wilson Combats new 1996A2 is listed as having a slide
to frame tolerance of .004. That wouldn't rattle.

Jim.
Jim Rasmussen
Email: Jam...@pe.net
Idyllwild CA 92549

[Jim Rasmussen]

[Mike]

Jim Rasmussen <Jam...@pe.net> wrote:
# On 29 Oct 1996 09:38:59 -0500, a...@kepler.unh.edu (Andrew T Piskorski)
# wrote:

# #In article <54rsbe$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,

# #Robert Christman <rjch...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
# #
# ##Just for the record, a stock, non target model 1911 should have some

# ##looseness in the slide to frame fit (for reliability). I just purchased

# #
# #HOW MUCH? What is the optimum for best accuracy and reliability? Is there

# #any actual hard data on this?
# I noticed that Wilson Combats new 1996A2 is listed as having a slide
# to frame tolerance of .004. That wouldn't rattle.

The kimber doesnt rattle either

--
Mike Teague - yng...@teleport.com - http://www.teleport.com/~yngwie
AKA Yngve on #guns, THE channel for firearms enthusiasts!
A gun toting, Linux using, Libertarian Postal Worker
"I am not disgruntled"

[Pete Shirley]

geoff beneze wrote:
#
# In article <54l8mp$j...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, geor...@onramp.net (George
# Barrientos) wrote:
#
# # I have a new Colt Combat Elite that rattles when I shake it gently
# # from side to side. The slide to frame fit is pretty loose. The pistol
# # shoots well enough but the sloppy slide to frame fit makes me feel
# # like I paid top dollar for third rate quality . How does this affect
# # the weapons performance ?

I own four (4) 1911s. Two Colt Gold Cups (blue and stainless), one Colt
1991A1 Mil-Spec unit, and one stainless Springfeild Trophy Match. For
those who IMO (myself included) were looking for half decent factory
target pistol did not get all that they paid for. The sloppy slide to
frame, barrel to slide, and bushing fit, and poor trigger is normal with
Colt 1911s. The Trophy Match out of the box was everything that I did
myself to my Colts to shoot accurately and reliably with a nice trigger
pull and more!!

Anyway.... If you are looking for a reliable sidearm for personal
protection, the Colt will do. If you would like a target pistol or
would like to accurize your Combat Elite then listen to the
following.

Slide to frame fit has a small effect on accuracy (some smiths estimate
about 5-15% when tightened) To get the biggest increase in accuracy out
of your Colt without spending big bucks on smithing, get several
oversized barrel links and an oversized barrel bushing. The size of the
barrel link will probably be anywhere from .008 to .015 inches OVERSIZED
in length. Buy each one, and install each one until the lock-up of the
hood of the barrel is tight with the slide when placed in battery. Check
this by pushing down on the barrel after closing the slide. There should
be NO movement downward or play when a properly sized barrel link is
installed. When done, this will ensure that the barrel returns to the
same place shot after shot.

And about the bushing, get a BLUE bushing from Wilsons Custom
Shop. The reason I recommend the Wilson bushing is that it is
already cut to about .001 to .003 inches over the diameter of the
standard barrel outer diameter and enough "play" to ensure that the link
will unlock and barrel will properly tilt. This will make for a good fit
of the barrel in the bushing. You will have to use a dremil/file to get
the outside of the bushing to fit inside the slide. This is ALOT easier
than fitting a bushing that is undersized on the inside to a barrel. The
bushing does not have to be perfectly round on the outside, just as long
as it is done with patients and fits in the front of the slide.

[Andrew T Piskorski]

In article <9610301415.AA00109@dwrsun4>, Jim Rasmussen <Jam...@pe.net> wrote:
#On 29 Oct 1996 09:38:59 -0500, a...@kepler.unh.edu (Andrew T Piskorski)

###Just for the record, a stock, non target model 1911 should have some
###looseness in the slide to frame fit (for reliability). I just purchased
##
##HOW MUCH? What is the optimum for best accuracy and reliability? Is there
##any actual hard data on this?
#I noticed that Wilson Combats new 1996A2 is listed as having a slide
#to frame tolerance of .004. That wouldn't rattle.

TOLERANCE, or clearance?