Simunition-anybody use it?
Ken V
training ammunition. It is 89 grain polymer projectile, marked "For MP5
ONLY". Has anybody used any of this? If so, in what weapon? The
distributor claims it is moderate pressure and good in anything-thoughts
and experiences welcome.
Ken
. . . . . . . . . .
Info on moderated group rec.guns is at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
ROBKABOB 1
ken wrote:
#I have just purchased a couple cases of Simunition Greenshield frangible
#training ammunition
# Has anybody used any of this? If so, in what weapon? The
#distributor claims it is moderate pressure and good in anything-thoughts
#and experiences welcome.
we use simi (or "simunition") in our berettas. it is a great training tool,
espectially if you go in tee shirts (with face/neck shields of course). it
teaches you with quick, direct reinforcement, and it makes you think. it stings
like a mother though. though we use mp-5's, we use the simi's in our berettas
only. we have the replacement barrels which ensure that no real live rounds are
chambered. i think that if your basics are solid, they really improve your room
entry techniques. quick-like.
Bill D.
function normally
).
In SW you have to keep them really clean.
Bill
ROBKABOB 1 wrote:
> ...
Mr. Jeffrey W. Shwartz
simunition company. Greenshield frangible ammo is a lead/polymer combo
that is definitely fatal if youre hit. It is made for steel plate and
indoor range training. Simunition training ammo, with the plastic
cap, is for real time training against people wearing protective
clothing, as discussed above. They are not the same thing!
I dont want anyone to get them confused, thanks!!
DOUGinFL
In article <6v19ub$3...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "Ken V" <globa...@bigfoot.com>
writes:
#
#I have just purchased a couple cases of Simunition Greenshield frangible
#training ammunition.
Where and HOW did you get it!!!!
William P.N. Smith
#"Ken V" <globa...@bigfoot.com>
##I have just purchased a couple cases of Simunition Greenshield
#frangible
##training ammunition. It is 89 grain polymer projectile, marked "For
#somebody was hit. (It also left definite bruises and welts. Heavy
#clothing is recommended.) The simunition we used was 38 caliber and
#training was very effective - we learned REAL FAST that finding cover
#is all important!
Is it just me, or is this "firing guns at people" thang a little
scary. Definately not for civilians...
William Smith wp...@compusmiths.com N1...@amsat.org
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
Rosco Benson
William P.N. Smith <wp...@compusmiths.com> wrote in article
# Is it just me, or is this "firing guns at people" thang a little
# scary. Definately not for civilians...
# William Smith wp...@compusmiths.com N1...@amsat.org
Unless one has eschewed the notion of self-defense and relegated
his guns to the status of remote paper-punch or game animal
harvesting devices, then one may have to fire his gun "at people",
in legitimate self-defense, before the day is through. If one, instead,
accepts the role of the firearm in self-defense, then training
conducted using Simunition training ammo and human opponents
is extremely valuable. Unlike paper targets, human opponents move,
fight back, and cheat. The fact that being hit with a Simunitions round
hurts enhances the realism of the training and one's retention of
the lessons learned. As with any potentially dangerous activity, there
are strict safety rules which must be followed regarding protective
equipment, excluding any "live" weapons from the scene, et cetera.
As to the notion of this training not being "for civilians", I must
disagree.
In cultures where self-defense is denied to the "civilians", those
"civilians"
are not citizens...they are subjects and serfs. Also, bear in mind that
the police (excluding MP's and such) ARE "civilians". Would you
also deny "civilians" the opportunity to spar with live opponents in a
martial arts setting? The parallel between this and Simunition
"force-on-force" training should be apparent.
Rosco Benson
my opinions....not my employer's
Ken V
Please beware! I sent the original post and wish all interested in
Simunition to check out their site:
www.simunition.com
If anybody shoots Simunition Greenshield at a living being, there is an
excellent chance you will kill it. This stuff is not the marker ammunition
some are thinking of.
Ken V.
DOUGinFL
In article <6vue90$t...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, wp...@compusmiths.com (William P.N.
Smith) writes:
#Is it just me, or is this "firing guns at people" thang a little
#scary. Definately not for civilians...
I guess you don't train. BTW nice peasant attitude.
ow to "beat the system," (perhaps by acquiring a NR
#CCW in another state and having it be valid here) if at all possible.
#
#
For YOU, all you would need to do is apply for a NH CCW, Gergia recognizes it
and from what I've read. Check out: http://home.att.net/%7Emgawley/carry.htm
DOUGinFL
Could one use simunitions in one's house without attracting too much attention?
In orther words is it real loud? Perhaps I sould get a suppressor?! ;-)
Rob
Rosco Benson wrote:
# As to the notion of this training not being "for civilians", I must
# disagree.
# In cultures where self-defense is denied to the "civilians", those
# "civilians"
# are not citizens...they are subjects and serfs. Also, bear in mind that
# the police (excluding MP's and such) ARE "civilians". Would you
# also deny "civilians" the opportunity to spar with live opponents in a
# martial arts setting? The parallel between this and Simunition
# "force-on-force" training should be apparent.
#
# Rosco Benson
WELL SAID, Rosco.
That was very well said. half an hour in a kill house with Simunition force on
force training would give the average gun toting citizen a whole hell of a lot
more to think about than countless magazine articles and days in in one of the
self-appointed "guru-academies"
Rob
What is simunition Greenshield ???
Ken V wrote:
> ...
Karl Rehn
#That was very well said. half an hour in a kill house with Simunition force on
#force training would give the average gun toting citizen a whole hell of a lot
#more to think about than countless magazine articles and days in in one of the
#self-appointed "guru-academies"
It has only been in the past year that Simunition has opened up their
instructor training program to civilians. I was one of 2 civilians in an
instructor class this summer on the West Coast. I agree completely that
force-on-force training is extremely useful in teaching defensive shooting
and tactics, especially when it is preceded by less stressful levels of
roleplaying. If you don't know what to do in a simple scenario with
"red guns" all that will happen when you go force-on-force is that you'll
be overwhelmed and gain little from the training experience except
bruises.
Certainly you can buy some water pistols and do some informal training
with friends, family, etc but force-on-force training is a lot more complex.
Not sure where you think you'll get access to a shoot house, well designed
training exercises and the appropriate safety gear outside a "guru academy".
Sim FX marking cartridges can only be fired in modified firearms, and
the cartridges and kits can only be purchased by a certified instructor.
I've got well over $2000 invested in training and equipment specific to
Simunition exercises in order to run them safely and realistically.
Most of the "guru academies" are at the forefront of simulation training,
particularly COMTAC (that runs NTI). Add to that list Ayoob's LFI,
Firearms Academy of Seattle, Combative Concepts, and InSights. I know
that instructors from Gunsite and Front Sight have also attended the
Sim instructor training program - there are probably many others that I'm
not aware of.
Karl
re...@krtraining.com
http://www.krtraining.com
Rothman11z
before us and there was a fair amount of 9mm simunition all over the place.
Rob
Karl Rehn wrote:
# Most of the "guru academies" are at the forefront of simulation training,
# particularly COMTAC (that runs NTI). Add to that list Ayoob's LFI,
# Firearms Academy of Seattle, Combative Concepts, and InSights. I know
# that instructors from Gunsite and Front Sight have also attended the
# Sim instructor training program - there are probably many others that I'm
# not aware of.
#
# Karl
# re...@krtraining.com
# http://www.krtraining.com
Karl, I am familiar with almost every operation you listed and they are all very
reputable. I was speaking more of the local "get your CCW permit classes here"
"schools" that are run in the backs of gunshops or movie rental operations all over
the country by retired police officers or well-meaning NRA instructors. while some
of these mayhave some good things to offer, I actually went to sit in on one class
oin my area to see what they were doing... get this they were showing one of those
videos by that guy and his wife from californiam, the same guy who makes the "bikini
& Machine gun" videos, the one with the little buxom blonde wife with the terminator
glasses... anyway, that was a major part of their class. If this is anyway near the
calibre of the instruction given by the classes abvertised on the internet and above
urinals in Hooters we are in trouble!
DOUGinFL
In article <362644E3...@bellsouth.net>, Rob <trend...@bellsouth.net>
writes:
#What is simunition Greenshield ???
This is for ranges that want to shoot ammo that is safe for the enviorment, not
the same stuff as their "Simunition FX" brand which IS a marking round and safe
to fire at a person.
Robert R. Hollingsworth
> ...
Hmmm. The NRA recommends a video during one three hour block of
instruction. The video, who's name escapes me, mainly serves to point
out thinks like "Don't try to clear your home, this is a job for
professionals." "Use the strong room concept" "Have a plan" "Call the
police" "Don't open the door to strangers without proper ID" Could this
be the video you mean? I found it no worse than Ayoob's videos he uses
in all his classes.
When our local club teaches the NRA personal protection course several
times a year we do it as a 12-14 hour course just as the NRA calls for
it. Besides basic handgun safety and shooting this includes the
recommended video, two hours of avoidance/security training and three
hours of legal familurization. Over the past three years about half of
the NRA certified instructors involved in the class have been graduates
of Ayoob's LFI-1.
It is somewhat upsetting to be lumped in with the two-hour gunshow
classes as examples of what us non-professionals can do. BTW our club
members try to bring "professional" training into the area, we've had
both LFI and Gunsite here and recommend these courses to our students
and club members. We even recommend they take additional NON-NRA basic
instruction courses where ever they can find them to get broader
experience and we encourage competition.
Just a non-professional venting my spleen,
Bob
Dean Speir
# ...half an hour in a kill house with Simunition force
# on force training would give the average gun toting
# citizen a whole hell of a lot more to think about than
# countless magazine articles and days in in one of
# the self-appointed "guru-academies"
Rob, have you ever attended one of those "self-appointed
'guru-academies' " for which you display such disdain? Or,
for that matter, have you ever participated in a force-on-
force Simunition role play, and if so, where and under whose
tutelage?
And please, O PLEASE!, don't tell us that your entire first
person experience in this regard came from auditing a
screening of a Lenny & Tammy Magill video.
- Dean Speir / Industry Intelligencer
FIREARMS FOURTH ESTATE
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
It's not a perfect world out there... it's why we _have_ guns!
Rob
as you admitted, a vast number (it would seem the majority in texas by your
numbers..3000 vs 500) of these schools are not as good as they could be. That
is what concerns me. It sounds like you have a great school, keep up the good
work!
Robert R. Hollingsworth wrote:
> ...
Bill D.
Sounds kinda like a loud cap pistol. We use eye protection, actually a
helmet that encloses the head, gloves and pad other sensitive areas
(like the neck, groin, etc) but not hearing protection.
You would be amazed at the accuracy.
Bill
Rob
# Rob tells Rosco Benson:
#
# # ...half an hour in a kill house with Simunition force
# # on force training would give the average gun toting
# # citizen a whole hell of a lot more to think about than
# # countless magazine articles and days in in one of
# # the self-appointed "guru-academies"
#
# Rob, have you ever attended one of those "self-appointed
# 'guru-academies' " for which you display such disdain? Or,
# for that matter, have you ever participated in a force-on-
# force Simunition role play, and if so, where and under whose
# tutelage?
#
# And please, O PLEASE!, don't tell us that your entire first
# person experience in this regard came from auditing a
# screening of a Lenny & Tammy Magill video.
I have been through several force on force training situations, primarily under
the tutelage of the US Army. Besides, can't someone not know that medical
school will help people learn surgical skills without actually having attended?
Isn't Intuitive knowledge, regardless of experience, how people get jobs
writing articles anyway?
Now, I know what I am about to see opens me up to flames-a-plenty, but:
One thing I highly recommend to people is to, laugh if you will, go play
paintball in a building some time. Most people don't have access to
Simunitions, nor do they have time/money to go to a worthwhile school.
I have played paintball several times in an abandoned Jail (with the property
owners approval). You would be amazed how many LEOs and other supposedly
tactics and gun wise people were thoroughly overwhelmed by the concept of
shooting somone without getting shot in that simple scenario.
People leave those "games" with entirely different views of the value of
seeking good cover and holding your ground. They also seem to realize that gun
battles are quick and ugly things. Imagine what will happen if someone comes up
with a way to safely convince people that hiding people sheetrock walls or
their couches isn't going to help them much either....
We have one school in our area that I think is certainly worth more that they
charge, it is taught by a police officer a lawyer, and a few fully qualified
(according to the state's system) AIs. Not only is the Gun stuff covered, but
the legal side of carrying also.
BTW, are you advocating the use of those videos in CCW permit classes? If so,
my respect for you is going to take a bit of a nose dive.
Karl Rehn
#paintball in a building some time. Most people don't have access to
#Simunitions, nor do they have time/money to go to a worthwhile school.
In my experience indoor paintball has some training value, but after
the first few times you've learned about all you can from it, without
setting up some structured exercises that teach and/or test something
relevant to self defense. Doing exercises with cops and paintball guns
was probably more relevant than what most people would get from playing
indoor paintball with the 16 year olds that usually inhabit commercial
pball businesses.
To correct something I posted previously: the instructors at COMTAC
have, in the past, been involved with NTI but I've been informed that
they don't currently run it.
Todd Louis Green
<dsp...@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote to all in rec.guns:
#Rob tells Rosco Benson:
#
## ...half an hour in a kill house with Simunition force
## on force training would give the average gun toting
## citizen a whole hell of a lot more to think about than
## countless magazine articles and days in in one of
## the self-appointed "guru-academies"
#
#Rob, have you ever attended one of those "self-appointed
#'guru-academies' " for which you display such disdain? Or,
#for that matter, have you ever participated in a force-on-
#force Simunition role play, and if so, where and under whose
#tutelage?
I have, on both counts, many times, and you know it, Dean. And
I would have to agree with Rob's comments. A single SIMUNITION FX
experience tends to change most people's ideas about what they
should and shouldn't focus on in their defensive firearms technique
libraries.
Training is good. Professional instruction is good. Being
shot at or simply knowing that you CAN be shot when
searching/clearing a house ratches things up by about three orders
of magnitude, however.
At the COMTAC Alumni Reunion this past weekend, my wife had her
first experience with a SIMUNITION-like product called "Code Eagle,"
which is basically a low-powered SIMUNITION FX cartridge which works
only in revolvers. Although she had been through "shoot house"
clearing exercises before, she came out of COMTAC's barn
hyperventilating and, in the one instance where she was shot,
crying.
It is *not* the same.
--
Todd Louis Green, m...@greent.com CALIBERS - The Handgun
Ammunition Information
Beretta-L Resource
http://greent.com/beretta http://greent.com/40Page
--
Todd Louis Green
wrote to all in rec.guns:
I assume we're talking about SIMUNITION FX Marking Cartridges
here, correct?
#The 9mm and 38 spl can be used in or outdoors.
Yup. It's a low-energy round, the bullet of which is nothing
more than soap, food dye, and some plastic. Won't even break *most*
windows.
#Sounds kinda like a loud cap pistol. We use eye protection, actually a
#helmet that encloses the head, gloves and pad other sensitive areas
#(like the neck, groin, etc) but not hearing protection.
Sound level is below OSHA hearing protection requirement level.
SIMUNITION recommends covering *all* skin, and gloves, throat
protection, eye/face protection, and groin protection are required.
If you don't think throat protection is important above and
beyond a face shield, you've never been unlucky enough to take a
round at just the right angle and have it bounce off your adam's
apple.
#You would be amazed at the accuracy.
I think they claim 6" groups at 50 feet.
Bill D.
accurate or capable of longer distances.
Some SWAT teams and SEALS still train with them.
Downside is not using your actual tactical weapons like Simunition
allows.
Bill
Rob wrote:
> ...
Joshua R. Poulson
# If you don't think throat protection is important above and
# beyond a face shield, you've never been unlucky enough to take a
# round at just the right angle and have it bounce off your adam's
# apple.
Did that with a .68 caliber paintball at 300fps at 10 feet.
I didn't enjoy it.
Dean Speir
# Paintball is great - they hurt more than simunitions
Then you, sirrah, have had the good fortune to have never
have been fetched up a good hit with a Simunitions
projectile.
I wore a dime-sized scab on my solar plexus for a fortnight after
being hit with a Simunitions round from a P226 during NTI III.
- Dean Speir / Industry Intelligencer
FIREARMS FOURTH ESTATE
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
It's not a perfect world out there... it's why we _have_ guns!
thpaw, have the ambi lever
removed. Or suck it up and and go for a Model 3913LS if you're
secure enough in your own masculinity.
Or hunt down one of the discontinued Models 3913NL.
- Dean Speir / Industry Intelligencer
FIREARMS FOURTH ESTATE
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
It's not a perfect world out there... it's why we _have_ guns!
. . . . . . . . . .