SIG dropped by FBI

Jason Bayne

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Mar 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/17/98

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I know that the FBI dropped their 9mm SIGs for the Glock 23/22
recently. But I have read in two places that this was because of
epidemic frame cracking between 10,000 to 15,000 rounds. One of the
place I read this was the ".40 Something Page", the other place was a
magazine which I can't recall at the moment. Can anyone else confirm
this?

I have also read that the life expectancy of the SIG P220 is only 10,000
rounds. I have heard this from 2 different people who have called
SIGARMS to find out about the life expectancy of the 220. The rep said
"10,000 rounds, though some have been known to last longer". Any truth
to this? I am interested in buying a P220 but I am quite hesitant at
the moment.

Jason

rangrrik

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Mar 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/18/98

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Jason Bayne wrote:
#
# I know that the FBI dropped their 9mm SIGs for the Glock 23/22
# recently. But I have read in two places that this was because of
# epidemic frame cracking between 10,000 to 15,000 rounds. One of the
# place I read this was the ".40 Something Page", the other place was a
# magazine which I can't recall at the moment. Can anyone else confirm
# this?
#
# I have also read that the life expectancy of the SIG P220 is only 10,000
# rounds. I have heard this from 2 different people who have called
# SIGARMS to find out about the life expectancy of the 220. The rep said
# "10,000 rounds, though some have been known to last longer". Any truth
# to this? I am interested in buying a P220 but I am quite hesitant at
# the moment.
#
# Jason

You have heard quite wrong. The FBI did NOT DROP THE SIG as a sidearm.
The situation is this: the FBI authorizes certain guns in certain
calibers for carry by its agents. Up till now, they had not authorized
ANY gun in 40 S&W. After some tests, they have authorized the Glock 22
and 23 for carry by their agents, in 40 S&W. If you want to carry a
9mm, you'll be carrying a SIG or a Smith. If you want to carry a 45,
you'll be carrying a SIG or a Smith. That is the situation.

JoeSkyPi

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Mar 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/18/98

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Sorry, but rangrrik didn't get it exactly right. The FBI has not dropped
Sig/Sauer handguns, but has contracted for Glock 22/23 for issue to new agents.
These were not intended to replace previously-issued Sig/Sauer or S&W pistols,
although agents are now being canvassed as to whether they desire to have their
Bureau-issue pistols replaced with a G22 or 23. These Glocks are the first .40
S&W pistols ISSUED by the FBI, but not the first ones AUTHORIZED. The SW40F was
the first .40 authorized for duty if personally-owned, the second was the Glock
27 (Along with the G-26 9mm), and the third was the Sig/Sauer p229.

The FBI started to provide
all agents with a variety of semi-automatic pistols in the late 1980s. In
addition to the S&W 1076 10mm, Sig/Sauer P225s, 226s, and 228s were issued as
well as many variations of the S&W 39XX, 59XX, or 69XX series. (The S&W 1076
was intended to be standard issue for all agents, but only about 2400 were ever
issued.) Agents are also allowed two personally-owned handguns for duty use.
These include the above-mentioned weapons (except the S&W1076) and also the
Sig/Sauer P220 in .45ACP, and some, but not, all S&W .45s. Non-airweight 5-shot
S&W revolvers are also currently being approved. There has been some experience
in the FBI with frame cracks on the P220, but it is still authorized. The FBI
has not in recent history issued any .45ACP pistol other than to the Hostage
Rescue Team (A Les Baer semi-custom--the HRT once used Browning HiPowers). A
1911-style .45 is now being considered for SWAT teams. As you can see by this
incomlete discription, Bureau policy regarding handgun selection policy is not
simple, and is widely misquoted.

J. Henderson

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Mar 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/18/98

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In article <6enn16$h...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, rangrrik <rang...@gte.net> wrote:

#Jason Bayne wrote:
##
## I know that the FBI dropped their 9mm SIGs for the Glock 23/22
## recently. But I have read in two places that this was because of
## epidemic frame cracking between 10,000 to 15,000 rounds. One of the
## place I read this was the ".40 Something Page", the other place was a
## magazine which I can't recall at the moment. Can anyone else confirm
## this?
##
## I have also read that the life expectancy of the SIG P220 is only 10,000
## rounds. I have heard this from 2 different people who have called
## SIGARMS to find out about the life expectancy of the 220. The rep said
## "10,000 rounds, though some have been known to last longer". Any truth
## to this? I am interested in buying a P220 but I am quite hesitant at
## the moment.
##
## Jason
#
#
#You have heard quite wrong. The FBI did NOT DROP THE SIG as a sidearm.
#The situation is this: the FBI authorizes certain guns in certain
#calibers for carry by its agents. Up till now, they had not authorized
#ANY gun in 40 S&W. After some tests, they have authorized the Glock 22
#and 23 for carry by their agents, in 40 S&W. If you want to carry a
#9mm, you'll be carrying a SIG or a Smith. If you want to carry a 45,
#you'll be carrying a SIG or a Smith. That is the situation.

Not entirely true; the FBI has also authorized a ParaOrdnance modification
of the P13(maybe P12, I forget) that Les Baer has something to do
with...in .45 ACP of course!

JH

--
J. Henderson ****ICQ#5220907****
"When Alexander surveyed his vast domain, he wept,
for there were no more worlds to conquer."

rangrrik

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Mar 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/19/98

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JoeSkyPi wrote:
#
# Sorry, but rangrrik didn't get it exactly right. The FBI has not dropped
# Sig/Sauer handguns, but has contracted for Glock 22/23 for issue to new agents.
# These were not intended to replace previously-issued Sig/Sauer or S&W pistols,
# although agents are now being canvassed as to whether they desire to have their
# Bureau-issue pistols replaced with a G22 or 23. These Glocks are the first .40
# S&W pistols ISSUED by the FBI, but not the first ones AUTHORIZED. The SW40F was
# the first .40 authorized for duty if personally-owned, the second was the Glock
# 27 (Along with the G-26 9mm), and the third was the Sig/Sauer p229.
#

Are you certain of this? All the sources I read said that there was NO
FBI authorized 40 prior to the Glock.

rangrrik

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Mar 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/19/98

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J. Henderson wrote:
# Not entirely true; the FBI has also authorized a ParaOrdnance modification
# of the P13(maybe P12, I forget) that Les Baer has something to do
# with...in .45 ACP of course!
#
# JH

That would be for the FBI HRT only. The local FBI SWAT Teams are also
being issued a single-stack 1911 in .45. But we were discussing
authorized guns for regular field agents.

Jonathan Jones

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Mar 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/19/98

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Jason, Iam a policeman and our department issued us the sig p226 9mm. Alot
of the guys swear by it but I dont care to much for it! While iam on duty
we have to carry the sig cause its standard issue, but when iam off duty I
carry my good ol reliable glock model 22 40cal. I would trust my life with
the glock before the sig!

Jason Bayne <jba...@leisuretrends.com> wrote in article
<6enh3j$g...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...

# I know that the FBI dropped their 9mm SIGs for the Glock 23/22
# recently. But I have read in two places that this was because of
# epidemic frame cracking between 10,000 to 15,000 rounds. One of the
# place I read this was the ".40 Something Page", the other place was a
# magazine which I can't recall at the moment. Can anyone else confirm

# this?
#

# I have also read that the life expectancy of the SIG P220 is only 10,000
# rounds. I have heard this from 2 different people who have called
# SIGARMS to find out about the life expectancy of the 220. The rep said
# "10,000 rounds, though some have been known to last longer". Any truth
# to this? I am interested in buying a P220 but I am quite hesitant at

# the moment.
#
# Jason

#
#
#

Todd Louis Green

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Mar 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/19/98

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On 18 Mar 1998 21:00:57 -0500, joes...@aol.com (JoeSkyPi) wrote to
all in rec.guns:

# Sorry, but rangrrik didn't get it exactly right. The FBI has not dropped

#Sig/Sauer handguns, but has contracted for Glock 22/23 for issue to new agents.
#These were not intended to replace previously-issued Sig/Sauer or S&W pistols,
#although agents are now being canvassed as to whether they desire to have their
#Bureau-issue pistols replaced with a G22 or 23.

The FBI isn't getting any new SIGs. They're no longer issuing
them. And they're giving ALL of their agents the option to switch to
something else. I think "dropped" is a pretty fair description.

BTW, DEA is doing the exact same thing (except they've had 9mm
and .45ACP Glocks approved for half of forever already). Keep reading
those gunzine headlines for more federal law enforcement agencies to
be moving to polymer .40's ...

#The SW40F was the first .40 authorized for duty if personally-owned, the second was
#the Glock 27 (Along with the G-26 9mm), and the third was the Sig/Sauer p229.

I have never heard that the P229 was approved for the FBI. Could
you cite a source for this?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Louis Green :: .40something, The .40S&W and .45ACP Page
m...@greent.com :: http://www.greent.com/40Page
----------------------------------------------------------------------

JoeSkyPi

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Mar 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/19/98

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Todd,
The Sig/Sauer P229 ( but, as of now, not the P239) was approved by the FBI
about a year ago. Call your local field office and ask for the Principal
Firearms Instructor, If he's friendly he'll (she'll) confirm it-- Sigarms in
Exeter NH will also confirm. Don't bother with publications, they never get it
right. As all issued Sigs are 9mm, I suspect many will request a replacement
G22/23, just to get the .40 cal. Sigs are, however carried by literally
thousands of agents who really like them and would opt for the P229 as a
replacement if it were offered. The FBI has recently issued S&W and Sig/Sauer
as well as Glock--who knows who will get the next contract-- Ruger?, Beretta?,
Raven???

Sam A. Kersh

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Mar 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/19/98

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joes...@aol.com (JoeSkyPi) wrote:

# Sorry, but rangrrik didn't get it exactly right. The FBI has not dropped
#Sig/Sauer handguns, but has contracted for Glock 22/23 for issue to new agents.
#These were not intended to replace previously-issued Sig/Sauer or S&W pistols,
#although agents are now being canvassed as to whether they desire to have their

#Bureau-issue pistols replaced with a G22 or 23. These Glocks are the first .40
#S&W pistols ISSUED by the FBI, but not the first ones AUTHORIZED. The SW40F was
#the first .40 authorized for duty if personally-owned, the second was the Glock
#27 (Along with the G-26 9mm), and the third was the Sig/Sauer p229.

I wonder if the switch to Glocks has any thing to do with the report
that Glocks can't be matched to a fired bullet... The rumor/urban
legend is they all have the same type striations.

Sam A. Kersh
NRA Life Member
NRA-ILA Contributor
Second Amendment Foundation Contributor
TSRA, JPFO, LEAA
Ducks Unlimited
TP&WL Operation Game Thief
http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh/csmkersh.htmm
No Spam, Please
===============================================================
If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy.

Note: in off-seasons, substitute "fishing" for "hunting"

Read John Ross' "Unintended Consequences"

Robert

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Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98

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TRUE SIG SUCKS. I have owned the 226 and 220. I hated the 226 and dumped it
and loved the feel of the 220. My 220 frame and ramp cracked after 600 rounds
of standard ammo and I dumped it also. I have 5 Glocks from 9mm to 45acp and
have not had one problem with any of them after thousands of rounds. Glock
wins hands down.

rangrrik wrote:

> ...

DAVID DOBSON

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98

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I am not affiliated with SigArms, but I am a Sig P229 owner. I called
SigArms to pose this so-called problem regarding Sig aluminum frames. I was
told the following (paraphrasing of course):

1. Literally hundreds of agencies all over the world use Sigs because Sig
guns are TOUGH, excellently engineered, hold up excellently in the field,
and are superbly accurate right out of the box.

2. Besides the all-steel slide, the aluminum FRAME also incorporates steel
lockup and arrest mechanisms. This combination makes the Sig just as sturdy
as all-steel guns. The SigArms rep said that some other pistol companies in
the past have made ALUMINUM lockup and arrest mechanisms that would actually
crack after 10,000 rounds. Sig frames do not wear out any faster than steel
frames, BASED on many tests over the years with different materials,
including steel. They have shot 200,000 - 300,000 rounds through several
different Sigs without having to replace any frames. Yes, this is what
SigArms told me, and I have no reason to suspect their statements. If the
Sig gun is cleaned and lubed as directed, after each firing, the Sig should
hold up quite excellently, just like a steel frame.

3. It is very unusual that Sig owners request a Sig frame to be replaced;
and it's usually the result of some unusual circumstance in the field or a
very rare defect. There have been a couple cases on the Net in which the
P229 was replaced by SigArms with no questions asked, because of frame
deterioration. As far as I can tell from SigArms and experiences from Sig
owners in general, this frame deterioration is unusual; if it were the norm,
SigArms would not be able to keep enjoying their excellent reputation and
their business would be in jeopardy.
SigArms told me that wear patterns are fairly normal and occur within the
first couple hundred rounds of the break-in shooting period of the P229. The
main location that causes some people concern is on the rail, about one inch
from the muzzle end of the frame. During the break-in period, you may see
the black anodized material wear off in this area and possibly see what
appears to be some very small pits or chips. Seeing a little silver colored
stainless steel and minor wear patterns is no cause for alarm. The wear
patterns become stable during the first 1000 rounds of shooting. Make sure
to clean and lube your gun, including the rails, before each shooting
session. If your new gun shows these wear patterns then keep an eye on it
during the break-in period, to make sure the wear patterns do not degrade
the rail. If the wear patterns appear to be getting worse after several
hundred rounds, then call SigArms at 603-772-2302.

[Even though there are many happy Glock owners out there, occasionally you
hear a horror story about a particular Glock, which could be a rare defect
or a MAINTENANCE problem. With the amount of Glocks out there, the horror
story is the exception rather than the norm. So it is with the many Sigs all
over the world.]

4. Limiting the Sig guns to light/medium ammo loads only, is complete
nonsense. For all practical purposes, you can shoot anything in a Sig that
you would normally shoot in an all-steel gun, including 40s&w COR-BON 135
grain loads. Just make sure to properly clean and lube your Sig accordingly
for proper maintenance. Very simple. Shooting only hot loads in ANY gun will
cause it to wear out faster.
It is true that SigArms does not recommend +P ammo unless it is authorized
by SAAMI. The 40s&w does not have a +P authorization. To confuse matters,
COR-BON 135 grain rounds are listed on the ammo box as being +P. This is
really more of a marketing strategy from COR-BON, to let buyers know that
this is a hot load. The important thing to remember here is that the COR-BON
135 round is WITHIN the SAAMI limit of 35,000 psi. So technically, this
round is within the authorized guidelines of SigArms and SAAMI.

The Sig representative I talked with did say that the 357SIG round is
engineered to be more ballistically efficient than the 40s&w round. That is
one of the main reasons the 357SIG round is powerful, yet very pleasant to
shoot. The 357SIG round has to be mated with a tough gun that will support
it -- thus, the SIG P229 with its perfectly matched stainless steel slide
and aluminum frame with reinforced steel lockup and arrest mechanisms.

As far as ammo goes, it depends on which philosophy you follow:

The "light and fast" or the "heavy and slow" fans. If you like the heavy and
slow philosophy, use the 165 - 180 grain 40s&w rounds. If you like the light
and fast rounds, use the 40s&w 135 grain load or use the 357SIG rounds. But
having an aluminum Sig frame makes no difference whatsoever in your ammo
decision unless you go beyond the SAAMI specs.

5. On the internet, people can say anything they want, even if it is
completely bogus -- I thought this SigArms response was interesting.
Possibly, some people have had bad experiences with OTHER brand name
aluminum slides and/or frames and then assume that Sig frames might be
inferior also, without really investigating the facts. On the other hand,
there have been rare incidents of frame deterioration where SigArms has
replaced the customer's guns. Again, with proper cleaning and lubing, the
Sig guns will last for a very long time, just as long as an all-steel gun,
which is based on Sig manufacturing tests.

6. If you have any other questions, please call SigArms at 603-772-2302 to
get ACTUAL FACTS, instead of hearsay.

Jason Bayne wrote in message <6enh3j$g...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#I know that the FBI dropped their 9mm SIGs for the Glock 23/22
#recently. But I have read in two places that this was because of
#epidemic frame cracking between 10,000 to 15,000 rounds. One of the
#place I read this was the ".40 Something Page", the other place was a
#magazine which I can't recall at the moment. Can anyone else confirm
#this?
#
#I have also read that the life expectancy of the SIG P220 is only 10,000
#rounds. I have heard this from 2 different people who have called
#SIGARMS to find out about the life expectancy of the 220. The rep said

#"10,000 rounds, though some have been known to last longer". Any truth

#to this? I am interested in buying a P220 but I am quite hesitant at

VCopelan

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98

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#"DAVID DOBSON" <david....@worldnet.att.net> Writes:

#On the internet, people can say anything they want, even if it is
#completely bogus -- I thought this SigArms response was interesting.
#Possibly, some people have had bad experiences with OTHER brand name
#aluminum slides and/or frames and then assume that Sig frames might be
#inferior also, without really investigating the facts. On the other hand,

#there have been rare incidents of frame deterioration where SigArms has
#replaced the customer's guns. Again, with proper cleaning and lubing, the Sig

guns will last for a very long time, just as long as an all-steel gun,

#which is based on Sig manufacturing tests.

As I recall, in the United States Army trials in which both the SIG and the
Beretta 92 were deemed acceptable, SIG experienced frame cracking. The
Berettas experienced cracked slides.

I do not know how often these failures occur.

#The SigArms rep said that some other pistol companies in
#the past have made ALUMINUM lockup and arrest mechanisms that would actually
#crack after 10,000 rounds.

Very few handguns have Aluminum locking blocks. I have read that the Browning
BDM did have an Aluminum locking block. Hopefully, they have changed that
feature.

ger

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Mar 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/26/98

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On 24 Mar 1998 14:00:45 -0500, "DAVID DOBSON"
<david....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

#5. On the internet, people can say anything they want, even if it is
#completely bogus -- I thought this SigArms response was interesting.
#Possibly, some people have had bad experiences with OTHER brand name
#aluminum slides and/or frames and then assume that Sig frames might be
#inferior also, without really investigating the facts. On the other hand,
#there have been rare incidents of frame deterioration where SigArms has
#replaced the customer's guns. Again, with proper cleaning and lubing, the
#Sig guns will last for a very long time, just as long as an all-steel gun,
#which is based on Sig manufacturing tests.

I used to work at a gun store and the only guns that had problems with
their frames and had to be replaced by the manufacturer were Sigs.

By the way, if you believe manufacturers' little "statements" I've got some
beachfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you cheap.

PS never saw a problem with a Beretta slide.

Todd Louis Green

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Mar 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/28/98

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On 24 Mar 1998 14:00:45 -0500, "DAVID DOBSON"

<david....@worldnet.att.net> wrote to all in rec.guns:

#1. Literally hundreds of agencies all over the world use Sigs because Sig
#guns are TOUGH, excellently engineered, hold up excellently in the field,
#and are superbly accurate right out of the box.

Except the two federal law enforcement training centers, the FBI
Academy in Quantico, Virginia and the Federal Law Enforcement Training
Center in Glynco, Georgia, have both reported such severe problems
with their 9mm and .45ACP SIGs (frame life of around 12k-14k rounds)
that many agencies are dropping the gun. Similar problems have not
been noted with the aluminum-framed Beretta.

#They have shot 200,000 - 300,000 rounds through several
#different Sigs without having to replace any frames. Yes, this is what
#SigArms told me, and I have no reason to suspect their statements.

I find this simply impossible to believe. When I called them
last year regarding my SIG P220, I was told that the "estimated" life
was 10,000 rounds, but that "some guns had tested to 20,000 or even
30,000." You're suggesting that they have guns which have shot ten
times that?

#3. It is very unusual that Sig owners request a Sig frame to be replaced;
#and it's usually the result of some unusual circumstance in the field or a
#very rare defect.

Sure ... shooting 10k-15k rounds through a single gun is pretty
rare for most people. However, I know of one DEA agent (just as an
example) who used to be an armorer with SIGARMS in New Hampshire. He
loves his P220s and would never carry anything else. But he says just
his one office sends SIGs back to the factory all the time to get the
frames replaced. He, too, suggested that 10k rounds was the point
where one should "start looking for frame degradation after each trip
to the range."

#if it were the norm, SigArms would not be able to keep enjoying their
#excellent reputation and their business would be in jeopardy.

Did they happen to mention that they are, by all reports,
currently working on a polymer-framed gun? 8-)

#Very simple. Shooting only hot loads in ANY gun will cause it to wear out faster.

Yes it will. And the shorter the frame life of the gun, the
faster it will get worn out.

#5. On the internet, people can say anything they want, even if it is
#completely bogus -- I thought this SigArms response was interesting.

But one would never consider that perhaps the individual you
spoke with at SIGARMS might have some bias. 8-)

#Possibly, some people have had bad experiences with OTHER brand name
#aluminum slides and/or frames and then assume that Sig frames might be
#inferior also, without really investigating the facts.

Except it's SIGs that everyone is having problems with. NYPD
recently took SIGs off their list of approved guns, too, and at least
one source suggested to me that this was because of accelerated frame
wear. I haven't been able to confirm that, yet, though.

The important thing to keep in mind, as I've always said, is that
very very very few people will ever put 10,000 rounds through a single
gun in their lifetime. The FBI's standard is 20,000 because that is
the estimated number of rounds an agent is expected to put through his
gun during his career (training plus qualifications) -- and they were
seeing guns fail regularly, after about 10 years of use.

Some of us, however, shoot 10,000 rounds per year ... and there's
no way that a SIG (or any aluminum frame gun, for that matter) is
going to survive that kind of use the way a steel or polymer frame gun
will.

If you like SIGs, that's fine. That's great. Buy more. Shoot
more. They're excellent firearms. But, just like every other firearm
on the market, they are designed with certain compromises. If you
can't accept that, you're living in a dream.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Louis Green .40something
IDPA A-1313 The .40S&W and .45ACP Page
Certified Glock Armorer http://www.greent.com/40Page
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Midgaard

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Mar 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/28/98

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UGH!!! Thanx for the info, I'm going to pass this on to my buddy, both he
and I were planning on getting Sig P226's but given it's low round life I
certainly WON'T as I shoot ALOT of ammo each trip to the range.
Thanx

--
Mad Mardigan's Anti Spam Filter initiated.

Member of the Golden Eagles Rifle and Pistol Club in Brooklyn NY

http://www.excelsior.net/saruman
http://www.nra.org
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3964

Andrew P Clark

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Mar 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/29/98

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Midgaard <sar...@excelsior.net> blasphemed:

#UGH!!! Thanx for the info, I'm going to pass this on to my buddy, both he
#and I were planning on getting Sig P226's but given it's low round life I
#certainly WON'T as I shoot ALOT of ammo each trip to the range.

I don't know what some other people have been saying, but
there have been some nasty rumors about the frame lives of
SIGs. They are lying or ignorant, or both.

I have a P226 with 20k rounds through it, and still going
strong as my primary CCW. Two friends each have P220s with
10k (the "evil number of death for SIG frames"), and 5k each,
and no sign of wearing out. Two others have P225s with about
10k each, and again, no sign of problems.

My story, as everyone else's, is purely anecdotal. Call SIG,
talk to their service reps, and above all, know that they will
make right whatever MAY go wrong.

The rumors about SIG having low frame lives started because
SIG said they rate the P22x series for 10k rounds before major
maintainance. This is to COVER THEIR ASSE(T)S.

Grow up and realize that SIGs wouldn't have such a great rep
and be so popular if they were garbage worse than Lorcins,
Jennings, or Colts.

Drive on.

Andrew
--

Lee E. Brown

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Mar 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/29/98

to

Robert <dje...@earthlink.net> wrote:

#TRUE SIG SUCKS. I have owned the 226 and 220. I hated the 226 and dumped it
#and loved the feel of the 220. My 220 frame and ramp cracked after 600 rounds
#of standard ammo and I dumped it also. I have 5 Glocks from 9mm to 45acp and
#have not had one problem with any of them after thousands of rounds. Glock
#wins hands down.

Unless, of course, you want a tradtional double action in which
case Glock has absolutely nothing to offer.

Sitting right here next to me is my SIG P220 that now has about
SIX THOUSAND rounds through it with nothing more than a little
wear polishing here and there.

Any manufacturer can have their credibility called into question
by a batch of bad components. What's important to look at is not
so much whether there was a problem, but rather how they go about
making up for it.

JBrooks

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Mar 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/29/98

to

Shucks, I had an old model P220 for about 10years and fired about 10,000
rounds thru it. No problems. My Colt Gov't model Series 70 suffered a
cracked slide after 4,000 rounds in 1986, and that was a steel frame and
slide.

I'm curious...what part, specifically, of the frame is supposed to be
cracking?? The frame rails where the slide rides, or the bottom of the butt?
Makes a difference. Any documented data, or only heresay?

I guess diff'rent strokes and a little lucj of the draw.

I am not sure we can always assume that an agency drops a weapon because it
is defective; heresay, or "a friend rold me..." are not reliable sources..
Politics and economics play a big part. At the present, polymer-mania is
taking over. Personally, I like the P220, it is light, packs well and packs
a wallop, loads everything I feed it and goes bang every time I pull the
trigger. Which is exactly what I expect from a defensive handgun.

I had an HK USP40 for a while, but got rid of it and went back to my old
P220. The new polymers seem to be awfully blocky in appearance and have a
slide which is typically a lot wider than the P220, so do not conceal as
readily. My opinion, of course.

John Brooks

Todd Louis Green wrote in message <6fj9jn$b...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
> ...
faster.
> ...

Edmund M. Jakopchek

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Mar 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/29/98

to

Midgaard wrote:
# UGH!!! Thanx for the info, I'm going to pass this on to my buddy, both he
# and I were planning on getting Sig P226's but given it's low round life I
# certainly WON'T as I shoot ALOT of ammo each trip to the range.

My P226 has about 18,000 rounds thru it so far and it is shooting
accurately and it does not jam period. I shoot approx 3 to 6 hundred
rounds each trip to the range.

In the beginning, I have tried different powders, different rounds, but
now the ole 650 is set up for 115 full plated, 4.6 gr. bullseye.

Right now, I'm putting another thousand primers in those damn tubes...

Ed J.

Midgaard

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Mar 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/29/98

to

I'm emailing Sig for more info. I love Sig's look and a couple of my
Buddy's are just about to pickup P226's so this is of interest. I've been
getting reports saying they don't hold up then others saying they hold up
fine.

Todd Louis Green

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Mar 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/29/98

to

On 29 Mar 1998 17:52:20 -0500, "Edmund M. Jakopchek" <em...@usa.net>

wrote to all in rec.guns:

#My P226 has about 18,000 rounds thru it so far and it is shooting
#accurately and it does not jam period. I shoot approx 3 to 6 hundred
#rounds each trip to the range.

It sounds like your SIG is doing fine. However, you might want
to consider checking it for tiny cracks in the frame (particularly
near the rails) after each range trip.

Note that even if the frame does crack, it will not immediately
affect accuracy or reliability. Over time, however, the problem will
become noticeable and eventually the gun will be unsafe.

#In the beginning, I have tried different powders, different rounds, but
#now the ole 650 is set up for 115 full plated, 4.6 gr. bullseye.

This may be another reason you SIG has endured so well. You're
shooting a near-minimum load. The current Alliant manual states a max
of 5.0gr of Bullseye (starting charge is -10% or 4.5gr). The 5.0gr at
1.120" OAL with WSP primers rates 1,180fps at 31kpsi.

This isn't a criticism, BTW. I use below-max loads when I reload
for my Glock 30, and used light-recoil low-pressure CCI Blazer 165gr
TMJs for my .40's.

#Right now, I'm putting another thousand primers in those damn tubes...

PIA, aint it? <g> I just loaded 400 .45 on my 650 before I
realized I need to buy more powder. 8-)

VCopelan

unread,

Mar 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/29/98

to

Midgaard wrote:
# UGH!!! Thanx for the info, I'm going to pass this on to my buddy, both he and
I were planning on getting Sig P226's but given it's low round life I certainly
WON'T as I shoot ALOT of ammo each trip to the range.

The problem with the SIG frames is real but few pople put 20,000 rounds through
their 9mm. In the U.S. Army trials against the Beretta 92 and others, the SIGs
did experience frame cracking. Sigs are expensive, but that does not mean that
they will not break. Remember, the Sig bid for the U.S. Army contract was at a
price per unit within a few dollars of the Beretta 92. I don't recall the Sig
price in their bid but I believe it was just over $200/gun.

Until recently, Sig used mandrel bent and welded plate for all of their slides
(except Sig 230/232). This type of construction has one advantage... it's
cheap. Sig has started to use CNC stainless steel slides in some of their
newer guns because of it's higher strength which is necessary with the more
power cartridges out there.

lensman3

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Mar 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/29/98

to

Glock owners have been called nuts, and Cult Gun lovers.
My son-in-law returned one of his SIGs with rail cracks TWICE.
Any otherSIG owners willig to 'fess up?

On 22 Mar 1998 10:11:43 -0500, Robert <dje...@earthlink.net> wrote:

#TRUE SIG SUCKS. I have owned the 226 and 220. I hated the 226 and dumped it
#and loved the feel of the 220. My 220 frame and ramp cracked after 600 rounds
#of standard ammo and I dumped it also. I have 5 Glocks from 9mm to 45acp and
#have not had one problem with any of them after thousands of rounds. Glock
#wins hands down.

#
#rangrrik wrote:
#
# > ...
#
#
#
#

Peter Hauer

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Mar 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/30/98

to

Sorry, but I've shot over 3,000 rounds through my
SIG 226 without any cracking anywhere. Oh, and
I can only recall one jam with factory ammo.
lensman3 wrote in message <6fn8lc$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#Glock owners have been called nuts, and Cult Gun lovers.
#My son-in-law returned one of his SIGs with rail cracks TWICE.
#Any otherSIG owners willig to 'fess up?
#
#

#On 22 Mar 1998 10:11:43 -0500, Robert <dje...@earthlink.net> wrote:
#

##TRUE SIG SUCKS. I have owned the 226 and 220. I hated the 226 and dumped
it
##and loved the feel of the 220. My 220 frame and ramp cracked after 600
rounds
##of standard ammo and I dumped it also. I have 5 Glocks from 9mm to 45acp
and
##have not had one problem with any of them after thousands of rounds.
Glock
##wins hands down.
##
##rangrrik wrote:
##
## > ...
##
##
##
##
#
#

Fred Cerutti

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Mar 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/30/98

to

lensman3 <coon...@mail2.nai.net> wrote in article
<6fn8lc$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# Glock owners have been called nuts, and Cult Gun lovers.
# My son-in-law returned one of his SIGs with rail cracks TWICE.
# Any otherSIG owners willig to 'fess up?

OK, I confess. Your son-in-law was doing something extraordinary with his
SIG. Don't claim to know what, but if SIG replaced one frame and he blew
out a second one - well- something unusual is being done to\with the gun.

Fred Cerutti
Happy owner of:

Glocks
Sigs
S&Ws
Remingtons
Winchesters
BTW, my .40 Glocks have yet to self destruct on schedule either.

Gale McMillan

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Mar 31, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/31/98

to

VCopelan wrote:
#
# Midgaard wrote:
# # UGH!!! Thanx for the info, I'm going to pass this on to my buddy, both he and
# I were planning on getting Sig P226's but given it's low round life I certainly
# WON'T as I shoot ALOT of ammo each trip to the range.
#
# The problem with the SIG frames is real but few pople put 20,000 rounds through
# their 9mm. In the U.S. Army trials against the Beretta 92 and others, the SIGs
# did experience frame cracking. Sigs are expensive, but that does not mean that
# they will not break. Remember, the Sig bid for the U.S. Army contract was at a
# price per unit within a few dollars of the Beretta 92. I don't recall the Sig
# price in their bid but I believe it was just over $200/gun.
#
# Until recently, Sig used mandrel bent and welded plate for all of their slides
# (except Sig 230/232). This type of construction has one advantage... it's
# cheap. Sig has started to use CNC stainless steel slides in some of their
# newer guns because of it's higher strength which is necessary with the more
# power cartridges out there.
Dont tell the Seals that the 226 frame life is 20,000 rounds which would
mean they would be changing them every 6 months. Its not happening!

Rob Malkin

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Mar 31, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/31/98

to

VCopelan wrote in message <6fn862$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#
#Midgaard wrote:
## UGH!!! Thanx for the info, I'm going to pass this on to my buddy, both he
and
#I were planning on getting Sig P226's but given it's low round life I
certainly
#WON'T as I shoot ALOT of ammo each trip to the range.
#
#The problem with the SIG frames is real but few pople put 20,000 rounds
through
#their 9mm. In the U.S. Army trials against the Beretta 92 and others, the
SIGs
#did experience frame cracking. Sigs are expensive, but that does not mean
that
#they will not break. Remember, the Sig bid for the U.S. Army contract was
at a
#price per unit within a few dollars of the Beretta 92. I don't recall the
Sig
#price in their bid but I believe it was just over $200/gun.
#
#Until recently, Sig used mandrel bent and welded plate for all of their
slides
#(except Sig 230/232). This type of construction has one advantage... it's
#cheap. Sig has started to use CNC stainless steel slides in some of their
#newer guns because of it's higher strength which is necessary with the more
#power cartridges out there.
#

Let's see what kind of data we can gather on this. Anyone who's actually
worn out their SIG, speak up!! What caliber? How many rounds? What kind of
ammo? What was the factory's response?
In fact, if you've ever worn out ANY handgun I'd be interested in hearing
about it. How many rounds did it take? How hot were the loads?

In the military tests, did ALL the SIGs break? Some of them? One of them? If
several broke, were they all at the same round count? What kind of ammo?
Didn't the Beretta suffer locking block failures (we won't get into the
slide issue)?

In my opinion, talking about the service life of any product gets into a
gray area fast. What's the service life of my Toyota Camry? If I call Toyota
and they say 100,000 miles does that mean the wheels will fall off at
100,001? And will my neighbor's Camry fail at the exact same mileage? If
not, why not? You get the picture.

If you've seen frame-rail cracking on your SIG (not on a friend of a friend
of a friend's who's second cousin once saw one but on YOURS) tell us about
it and let us know the round count - please.

- Rob Malkin

VCopelan

unread,

Mar 31, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/31/98

to

Gale McMillan <ga...@mcmfamily.com> Writes:

#Dont tell the Seals that the 226 frame life is 20,000 rounds which would
#mean they would be changing them every 6 months. Its not happening!

I thought that the seals were using Berettas? I will have to ask a ex-seal
friend. BTW I guess you didn't read Todd Green's excellent post on SIG frame
problems!!!

VCopelan

unread,

Mar 31, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/31/98

to

"Rob Malkin" <rma...@ix.netcom.com> Writes:

#In the military tests, did ALL the SIGs break? Some of them? One of them? If
#several broke, were they all at the same round count? What kind of ammo?
#Didn't the Beretta suffer locking block failures (we won't get into the
#slide issue)?
#
#In my opinion, talking about the service life of any product gets into a
#gray area fast. What's the service life of my Toyota Camry? If I call Toyota
#and they say 100,000 miles does that mean the wheels will fall off at
#100,001? And will my neighbor's Camry fail at the exact same mileage?

Yes, the wheels will fall off your Toyota Camary! I actually saw Toyota Camary
wheel studs snap off as the mechanic attempted to remove a lug nut! Great
Toyota material choices I guess! No two cars or handguns will have the same
time between failures. That said, Todd Greene's post on SIG problems contained
enough facts to convince me. However, I don't own a SIG and I don't have to
rationalize my purchase with disbelief that they break.

Michael S. Purvey

unread,

Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

Rob Malkin wrote:

#
# If you've seen frame-rail cracking on your SIG (not on a friend of a friend
# of a friend's who's second cousin once saw one but on YOURS) tell us about
# it and let us know the round count - please.
#
# - Rob Malkin

In response to Robs request I'll restate what I've already mentioned
once or twice on this NG before..i.e. my personal experience with Sig
frame cracking...Your pardon if this is getting boring....

I noticed after approx 40K rds that one of the frame rails on my p228
appeared to have a crack that started on the righthand frame rail just
forward of the mag well and extended about .5" forward. The left did not
appear to have the same condition and NO effect on the operation of the
pistol was apparent. The loads used were made up of perhaps a 2-3
hundred Corbon 115+P's and almost all the rest were 122 flatpoint lead
rounds in front of about 5.7-5.9 gr of AA5, and later (after I realized
the AA5 was eroding the barrel throat) around 5.8 gr of Unique. These
were solid loads but not super hot rounds. I sent the pistol back to Sig
with a full explaination of the round count and the details of my
reloads and explained that as far as I was concerned it was my
responsibility to pay for the frame and would they kindly tell me how
much it would cost...After a very pleasant discussion with their service
manager where I voiced this opinion again, he asked if I'd mind if they
just REPLACED the gun with a new one...free of charge!? Needless to
say, I took him up on this offer after one last offer to pay something,
which was refused with grace. Frankly, after this kind of round count
and the fact that I used my reloads (which they had no way of knowing
how hot they were except my word) I considered the warrenty void and I
was on my own....

As far as the Sig alloy frames being fragile??? Guys, I know of 1911
frames my friends own that are cracked and Colt says "bring
money"...(they cracked after around 60K rds of firm 200 gr swc's)...just
bring me those old clunker 22x series Sigs when they're ready to fall
apart at 20k rds and I'll take them off your hands (grin)...

Mike Purvey
mpu...@hiwaay.net

Rob Hillier

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Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

Actually, the Seals use whatever they want and Uncle Sam buys for them. Sig,
Beretta, Taurus, H&K, Colt, etc. Speaking of Beretta, most Seals will tell you:
"you're not a Seal until you've eaten Italian steel."

Rob Hillier

VCopelan wrote:

# Gale McMillan <ga...@mcmfamily.com> Writes:
#
# #Dont tell the Seals that the 226 frame life is 20,000 rounds which would
# #mean they would be changing them every 6 months. Its not happening!
#
# I thought that the seals were using Berettas? I will have to ask a ex-seal
# friend. BTW I guess you didn't read Todd Green's excellent post on SIG frame
# problems!!!

Rob Malkin

unread,

Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

VCopelan wrote in message <6fshgv$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#"Rob Malkin" <rma...@ix.netcom.com> Writes:
#
#
##In the military tests, did ALL the SIGs break? Some of them? One of them?
If
##several broke, were they all at the same round count? What kind of ammo?
##Didn't the Beretta suffer locking block failures (we won't get into the
##slide issue)?
##
##In my opinion, talking about the service life of any product gets into a
##gray area fast. What's the service life of my Toyota Camry? If I call
Toyota
##and they say 100,000 miles does that mean the wheels will fall off at
##100,001? And will my neighbor's Camry fail at the exact same mileage?
#
#Yes, the wheels will fall off your Toyota Camary! I actually saw Toyota
Camary
#wheel studs snap off as the mechanic attempted to remove a lug nut! Great
#Toyota material choices I guess! No two cars or handguns will have the
same
#time between failures. That said, Todd Greene's post on SIG problems
contained
#enough facts to convince me. However, I don't own a SIG and I don't have
to
#rationalize my purchase with disbelief that they break.

So all this comes from reading a post somewhere!!!!????
Thanks for allowing us to calibrate the source here.

- Rob Malkin

Rob Malkin

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Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

Michael S. Purvey wrote in message <6fsk9f$7...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#Rob Malkin wrote:
#
##
## If you've seen frame-rail cracking on your SIG (not on a friend of a
friend
## of a friend's who's second cousin once saw one but on YOURS) tell us
about
## it and let us know the round count - please.
##
## - Rob Malkin
#
#
#In response to Robs request I'll restate what I've already mentioned
#once or twice on this NG before..i.e. my personal experience with Sig
#frame cracking...Your pardon if this is getting boring....
#
#I noticed after approx 40K rds that one of the frame rails on my p228
#appeared to have a crack that started on the righthand frame rail just
#forward of the mag well and extended about .5" forward. The left did not
#appear to have the same condition and NO effect on the operation of the
#pistol was apparent. The loads used were made up of perhaps a 2-3
#hundred Corbon 115+P's and almost all the rest were 122 flatpoint lead
#rounds in front of about 5.7-5.9 gr of AA5, and later (after I realized
#the AA5 was eroding the barrel throat) around 5.8 gr of Unique. These
#were solid loads but not super hot rounds. I sent the pistol back to Sig
#with a full explaination of the round count and the details of my
#reloads and explained that as far as I was concerned it was my
#responsibility to pay for the frame and would they kindly tell me how
#much it would cost...After a very pleasant discussion with their service
#manager where I voiced this opinion again, he asked if I'd mind if they
#just REPLACED the gun with a new one...free of charge!? Needless to
#say, I took him up on this offer after one last offer to pay something,
#which was refused with grace. Frankly, after this kind of round count
#and the fact that I used my reloads (which they had no way of knowing
#how hot they were except my word) I considered the warrenty void and I
#was on my own....
#
#As far as the Sig alloy frames being fragile??? Guys, I know of 1911
#frames my friends own that are cracked and Colt says "bring
#money"...(they cracked after around 60K rds of firm 200 gr swc's)...just
#bring me those old clunker 22x series Sigs when they're ready to fall
#apart at 20k rds and I'll take them off your hands (grin)...
#
#Mike Purvey
#mpu...@hiwaay.net

Mike;

This is just the kind of *documented* data gathering I was hoping to see.
Thanks for the informative post.

- Rob Malkin

MatQuig

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Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

Frames crack (stress cracks) on most any semi-auto pistol. I had a Colt. 45
that had small cracks at the common place: where the recoil spring "dust cover"
meets the rest of the frame. It bothered me. I thought about it too much. It
was aesthetically unpleasing. The gun still shot fine. I got rid of it. I
could have had it cut asnd welded. I wish I still had that gun; boy, did it
shoot! So, ignore the cracks, or get a free gun if you can from the
manufacturer. My brake rotors got stress cracks in them, too. Went a long
time on those cracks. Truck still worked. MatQuig

CLINTON L Crafton Jr

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Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

vcop...@aol.com (VCopelan) writes:

# Gale McMillan <ga...@mcmfamily.com> Writes:

##Dont tell the Seals that the 226 frame life is 20,000 rounds which would
##mean they would be changing them every 6 months. Its not happening!

#I thought that the seals were using Berettas? I will have to ask a ex-seal
#friend. BTW I guess you didn't read Todd Green's excellent post on SIG frame
#problems!!!

Um, I'd be guessing that if it comes down to Gale McMillans word vs your
"ex-SEAL" buddy's, well, your buddy is gonna loose.
FYI, Mr McMillan is a well respected expert in the firearm industry and
has directly asked SEALs (while working with them) which pistol they use.
Their answer was: Sig Sauer P226 OVER the Beretta and HK!
This made me feel good, as I have felt the P226 is the best combat pistol
going for many years now. I have owned, and do own several. I can honestly
say I have shot them for years without a single jam or malfunction, period.
(except when experimenting with cheap aftermarket magazines).

FWIW, YMMV.

CLINTON L Crafton Jr

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Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

I have the stats/results on the M9 testing (9mm pistol military testing).
I don't remember reading anything about frames cracking durring the testing.

I *do* remember reading that the P226 finished with the highest score of any
other pistol submitted for testing (including the Beretta).

Now, I do remember hearing about some pistols cracking frames when using the
SEAL SMG rounds which had a very high pressure. I thought that was Berettas
though.

At any rate, I have owned, sold and dealt with Sig Sauers for over 10 years,
and have yet to actually see ONE Sig Sauer with a cracked frame or slide
rails. I'm not saying it hasn't happened. In fact, I'm sure it has. I still
would pick the Sigs above Glocks, Berettas, HKs, Walthers, S&Ws, Rugers,
Colts, Taurus', or anything else out there.

In the appx. 20 Sigs I have owned, I have had nothing but good service.
Outstanding reliability, accuracy, durability and resale value.
I have owned Glocks, HKs, Beretta, etc etc etc... but.. Make mine Sig Sauer!

FWIW, YMMV.

AuSable1

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Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

In article <6frjq4$2...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "Rob Malkin" <rma...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:

#
#If you've seen frame-rail cracking on your SIG (not on a friend of a friend
#of a friend's who's second cousin once saw one but on YOURS) tell us about
#it and let us know the round count - please.
#
#- Rob Malkin

Right on, Rob!

So much of the negative crap laid on one weapon or another is kind of FLAME
oriented and comes from the bowles of the rumor mill. Glock owners slam Sig,
Sig owners slam Glock and on and on and on. If you have some concrete info,
share it. If not, can it.

AuSable1 - Sig Man

VCopelan

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Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

z...@iglou1.iglou.com (CLINTON L Crafton Jr) Writes:

## Gale McMillan <ga...@mcmfamily.com> Writes:
#

###Dont tell the Seals that the 226 frame life is 20,000 rounds which would
###mean they would be changing them every 6 months. Its not happening!

##I thought that the seals were using Berettas? I will have to ask a ex-seal
##friend. BTW I guess you didn't read Todd Green's excellent post on SIG
#frame
##problems!!!

#Um, I'd be guessing that if it comes down to Gale McMillans word vs your
#"ex-SEAL" buddy's, well, your buddy is gonna loose.
#FYI, Mr McMillan is a well respected expert in the firearm industry and
#has directly asked SEALs (while working with them) which pistol they use.
#Their answer was: Sig Sauer P226 OVER the Beretta and HK!
#This made me feel good, as I have felt the P226 is the best combat pistol

going for many years now. I have owned, and do own several. I can honestly say
I have shot them for years without a single jam or malfunction, period.

#(except when experimenting with cheap aftermarket magazines).

Talk about a angry post! All I said is that I was going to ask an ex-seal
friend what he used. I did not even get around to asking him and I was only
expressing my BELIEF that they used Barettas (at least when my friend was
active which was a few years ago). I THINK he used one many years ago.

I was not conducting a poll nor did I state that they used Barettas. All I
said in my post is that I thought they used Barettas. It seems that we have
some sensitive SIG owners out there who have difficulty understanding the
english language. Please, before you FLAME someone, read their post.

I think SIGs are fine guns, but I don't believe that any Aluminum framed
handgun has an unlimited MTBF. If you think your SIG or any other Aluminum
framed handgun will never wear out, I have some beach front property for you in
North Dakota.

Maurice KAMBACH

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Apr 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/1/98

to

I have no problem with the my P226's....

1st - 31,000 rounds
2nd - 57,000 rounds

... with heavy load. (5.1grain Herc. Bullseye, on a 123grain VM round)

mayby luck...

M. Kambach

Semovente

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Apr 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/3/98

to

again with the Beretta slide cracking! To my knowledge, the only slides they
managed to crack were in the SEALS tests with thousands of very high pressure
loads. The US Army reports that the Beretta slides last about 70,000 rounds
and the frames 30,000 plus .....knowing this, and how unbeliavebly reliable the
Beretta 92 inherently is, why get anything else? I've fired mine with almost
four thousand rounds ranging from very weak reloads to high pressure factory
loads with no failures. I've also witnessed sigs, glocks, and H&K jam,
although I admit it's a rare event. They're really all very good pistols that
last about as much as one could possibly expect any man-made object to endure!

Erik Reikes

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Apr 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/3/98

to

Semovente wrote:

# again with the Beretta slide cracking! To my knowledge, the only slides they
# managed to crack were in the SEALS tests with thousands of very high pressure
# loads. The US Army reports that the Beretta slides last about 70,000 rounds
# and the frames 30,000 plus .....knowing this, and how unbeliavebly reliable the
# Beretta 92 inherently is, why get anything else? I've fired mine with almost
# four thousand rounds ranging from very weak reloads to high pressure factory
# loads with no failures. I've also witnessed sigs, glocks, and H&K jam,
# although I admit it's a rare event. They're really all very good pistols that
# last about as much as one could possibly expect any man-made object to endure!

I think Berettas are a well designed piece of equipment and when made properly
perform well. The place to get good information about the reliability of a pistol
is at a range where they rent guns. The Italian made Berettas had fine durability
and reliability well into the 20k round stage. The American made ones, however
(this is a few years ago, so this may have been remedied) were dying after <2k
rounds. The slide block, not the slide was cracking allowing the slide to fly back
further and sometimes off of the frame. I personally saw 3 of these that had
failed in 1 month. They were being packaged to be sent back to the factory. All
had the same failure. 2 were American made 92FS and one was an American made 96.
They had Italian produced ones that had been around for ever. All of these guns
were about 2-3 months old. I like Berettas, but because of this I wouldn't buy and
American one until this problem was remedied.

-Erik

unread,

Apr 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/8/98

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In the case of Grenada, several SEALs were killed when they jumped into heavy
seas. This was due to bad intelligence and was not the SEALs fault. In Panama,
members of SEAL TEAM 4 were killed on the airfield on the way to destroy Noreiga's
plane. This mission could have been achieved in a number of ways. The easiest was
to place a sniper team with a .50 cal and punch some holes in the plane. However,
the Admiral in charge wanted a more dramatic mission involving multiplatoon SEALs,
running down the airport and blowing the plane up. They were discovered, caught in
a crossfire and some were killed. They managed to complete their mission
objectives despite the bad planning of the mission. The capability of the SEALs
can no longer be doubted after the Gulf war when they conducted over 270 missions
without a single casualty. If you wish to know more, I suggest you read Greg
Walker's At The Hurricane's Eye.

CLINTON L Crafton Jr wrote:

> ...

Jack Nastyface

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Apr 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/8/98

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Abe D. Lockman wrote:
#
# Since this thread (as have many others here) has a tendency to appeal to

# "what SEAL's use" as a trumping argument on defensive weapon selection,

# perhaps someone could enlighten me as to why this is the case. I'm
# familiar with the doctrinal theory of SEAL's, and I'm sure that they have
# good, dedicated, men who train hard, but does their combat record in the
# last 20 years or so justify the faith accorded to their doctrine and
# operational practice? e.g., there were some serious disasters in
# Granada. And I do know that members of the non "Special" forces elements
# of the armed forces often express disdain as to the utility of such units
# (and funds spent upon them, which could go to the regular force

# structure). Comments appreciated.
#

# adl

A couple of comments may be in order:

First and foremost, a torque wrench is a fabulous tool, but it makes
a lousy hammer. Special Forces units are just that, 'special', and you
aren't likely to win a war with them, but they make a BIG difference in
the right situations. The gulf war is a good case in point. Secondly,
although I'm not nor have been a seal, I've worked in situations where,
like them, my ability to do my job was greatly influenced by whatever
intelligence was available AND *disseminated to me*. Intelligence in
Grenada was exceedingly notable by its absence.
Does the combat records of Special Forces in general and seals in
particular justify them? You might as well ask if boomers of spooks have
been justified. I know just enough to know that the knowledge publicly
available is the tip of the ice berg. If you agree with the use of
military force, then I would say, Yes, they are justified.
--

Mountain Dwarf

"Women protect their feelings. Men protect their possessions."
(Thanks, Red!)

Martin Lum

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Apr 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/8/98

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I read somewhere that the SEALs were the first to use the Berettas, the SB model
not the FS model. They were apparently the first to break them and therefore they
use the SIG P226 designated as the M34 i think. The cause of the slide breaking
was that first of all the SEAL in question fired over 30 000 rounds in the gun.
Later models broke when suppressors were attached. The weight of the
suppressor/silencer forced the barrel down and it caused irregular resistance on
the barrel. The open cut design of the slide may have something to do with this.
The SIG was ranked 2nd in the military trials and was subsequently chosen by the
SEALs. However accuracy of the two pistols are supposedly about the same and they
function reliably. I doubt that many sporting shooters would abuse these firearms
to the point that the military does, so they are tough enough for civilian use.
They are both excellent guns and if I had the opportunity in the future I would
purchase both. I should point out that you should not buy a gun on the basis that
it used by whoever: military unit, actor in a movie, friend and so on. It should
be purchased on the grounds that it suits the shooter be it a Beretta, Glock or
whatever.
Anyway safe shooting!

Abe D. Lockman wrote:

# In article <6fsns2$8...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Rob Hillier
# <toy...@earthlink.net> wrote:
#
# # Actually, the Seals use whatever they want and Uncle Sam buys for them. Sig,
# # Beretta, Taurus, H&K, Colt, etc. Speaking of Beretta, most Seals will
# tell you:
# # "you're not a Seal until you've eaten Italian steel."

CLINTON L Crafton Jr

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Apr 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/9/98

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Martin Lum <ml...@mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:

#The SIG was ranked 2nd in the military trials and was subsequently chosen by the

This is incorrect. The Sig P226 finished with a higher score than the Beretta.
In other words, the Beretta was the *second* place finisher. The Beretta was
eventually awarded the contract due to the fact that they were cheaper.

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Apr 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/13/98

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<In article <6gp471$n...@xring.cs.umd.edu> b...@rs6a.wln.com (Business Bst Technology Dept) writes:

< With resurfacing discussions on this NG as well as on the
< currently down SIG-L, I thought I would share an exceprt
< from last week's Seattle Times:

< "State law gives the UWPD the authority to buy and
< sell its guns. But according to some police and to
< gun experts, the Sig Sauer guns are tough and
< reliable, and it would be unusual for a department
< to retire any of them after only four years of
< service.

< Marty Wagner, a customer-service representative
< at Sigarms, which manufactures Sig Sauer guns,
< said the guns are guaranteed for life and can fire
< about 5,000 rounds before any repairs are needed."

Huh? "can fire about 5,000 rounds before any repairs
are needed" is supposed to be impressive?

That'd be five MONTHS for some folks I know.

Could this be a misprint?