Indiana Jones Revolver
G. Hoffman
I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
--
George Hoffman tit...@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/users/titangh
Webpage contents: Lawrence of Arabia Studies, Brough Motorcycle, SMLE
Rifle, Webley Revolver
Jeff
"G. Hoffman" <tit...@hooked.net> wrote:
#I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
#Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
Yes, which looks good in the closeup, when he opens the action and
finds it empty. But when he packed his bag, it was a large frame S&W.
Ah . . . Hollywood.
In the original, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy uses both a revolver
and a 1911 auto in the barroom gunfight, but the auto was nowhere else
in the film.
Jeff/addesign
http://home...@interaccess.com/~addesign/t_other.htm
em...@acronet.net
In article <518sku$9...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, adde...@interaccess.com (Jeff) wrote:
# "G. Hoffman" <tit...@hooked.net> wrote:
#
# #I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
# #Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
#
# Yes, which looks good in the closeup, when he opens the action and
# finds it empty. But when he packed his bag, it was a large frame S&W.
# Ah . . . Hollywood.
#
# In the original, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy uses both a revolver
# and a 1911 auto in the barroom gunfight, but the auto was nowhere else
# in the film.
#
# Jeff/addesign
# http://home...@interaccess.com/~addesign/t_other.htm
In opening scenes of Batman, a Colt turns into a S&W during a fight scene
on some scaffolding.
Daniel Morris DeRight
Excerpts from netnews.rec.guns: 12-Sep-96 Re: Indiana Jones Revolver by
Je...@interaccess.com
# "G. Hoffman" <tit...@hooked.net> wrote:
#
# #I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
# #Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
#
# Yes, which looks good in the closeup, when he opens the action and
# finds it empty. But when he packed his bag, it was a large frame S&W.
# Ah . . . Hollywood.
I wish actors cared enough to ask for the same gun each time.
Honestly, with all the fuss they make over guns on a movie set, and they
do fuss, it's hard to see how they get them mixed up!
# In the original, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy uses both a revolver
# and a 1911 auto in the barroom gunfight, but the auto was nowhere else
# in the film.
It was worse than that actually. As Indy runs across the bar, the
shot cuts back and forth botween him and the thugs. As he runs for
cover, he is firing behind him, and the camera cuts to him three times.
First cut has him with the Smith, then the Auto (I thought it was a
Browning) then back to the Smith. A revolver that shoots dry, then
changes into an auto, which also shoots dry, only to change back to a
wheelgun, but refilled! I wish my guns would do that! I'd never carry
anything bigger than an Airweight!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
sod...@cmu.edu
D. LEWIS
Jeff (adde...@interaccess.com) wrote:
: "G. Hoffman" <tit...@hooked.net> wrote:
: #I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
: #Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
: Yes, which looks good in the closeup, when he opens the action and
: finds it empty. But when he packed his bag, it was a large frame S&W.
: Ah . . . Hollywood.
If I'm not mistaken, the bag packing scene is from the first
movie, which uses what looks like a large frame S&W throughout (seems
like some one in this group once speculated that it was a S&W .38/44
outdoorsman). In the second movie the same pistol was present for a time
before being lost early in the movie.
When I saw the third movie I kind of wandered why he was using a
Webley: like Jeff said, it looks good in the closeup when he was trying to
reload it. Another reason for the later selection of the Webley revoler
in the world of the thirties might have been that the British empire was
fairly expansive and a world traveling adventurer might have better luck
in finding .455 than one would have in comming across .38/44, .44 special,
or whatever it was that his earlier revolver was chambered for.
: In the original, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy uses both a revolver
: and a 1911 auto in the barroom gunfight, but the auto was nowhere else
: in the film.
The autoloader was also present during the scene on the freighter
just before it was boarded by the Nazis (it was not fired in that scene,
but it does show Indy pulling the slide back). Incidently, I think that the
auto pistol in the first movie might have been a Browning High Power, but
I'd have to watch the movie again to be certain.
-D. Lewis
Robin
Jeff wrote:
#
# #Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
#
# Yes, which looks good in the closeup, when he opens the action and
# finds it empty. But when he packed his bag, it was a large frame S&W.
# Ah . . . Hollywood.
#
# In the original, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy uses both a revolver
# and a 1911 auto in the barroom gunfight, but the auto was nowhere else
# in the film.
#
# Jeff/addesign
# http://home...@interaccess.com/~addesign/t_other.htm
I thought the auto was something he picked up from Kolonel Klinton
during the brawl. Now you got me worried.
Robin
DHoots1507
In article <517bh1$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "G. Hoffman"
<tit...@hooked.net> writes:
#
#I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
#Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
#
#--
#George Hoffman tit...@hooked.net
In the books, he's armed with a .38spl Webley *only*. Is the Mk. VI a
.38spl or the .455 ?
*******************************************
hoots...@tandem.com OR
DHoot...@aol.com
*******************************************
"The first requisite of a good citizen in this Republic of ours is that
he shall be able and willing to pull his own weight." Theodore Roosevelt
D. LEWIS
DHoots1507 (dhoot...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <517bh1$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "G. Hoffman"
: In the books, he's armed with a .38spl Webley *only*. Is the Mk. VI a
: .38spl or the .455 ?
: hoots...@tandem.com OR
: DHoot...@aol.com
The Mk. VI was in .455. It looks quite simular to the Enfield Mk.
1 which later replaced the Mk. VI in British service except that it is
much larger and (unlike later models of the Mk. 1) did not have a bobbed
hammer spur. I'm pretty sure that it was the larger Mk. VI that was used
in the third movie. Incidently, the Mk. 1 used .38 S&W (AKA .38/200), not
the more powerful .38 special which is a slightly skinnier and much longer
cartridge.
The fact that the Mk. 1 was less effective than the marginal .38
special would have been a good reason for adventurers facing mad
swordsmen, tanks, airplanes, snakes, Nepalese thugs, the Gestapo, more
snakes, Nazi Germany's navy and army, etc., etc., to go with something
a bit more powerful.
-DL
Jeff
dhoot...@aol.com (DHoots1507) wrote:
#In article <517bh1$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "G. Hoffman"
#<tit...@hooked.net> writes:
##
##I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
##Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
##George Hoffman tit...@hooked.net
#In the books, he's armed with a .38spl Webley *only*. Is the Mk. VI a
#.38spl or the .455 ?
Mark VI is a .455, unless converted to .45acp.
Mark IV is a .38/200, or .38/176 (fmj) or .38/145
which is all the same case as .38S&W, but definitely NOT .38spl.
Never seen one in .38spl.
I have a Mark IV that was proofed for .38/145/200, which may be fairly
unusual. That just means the .38 Webley (or S&W) with either a 200 or
145 grain bullet. In any event, the .38 Webley Mark IV looks nothing
like anything I've seen him use in any of the movies. I'm fairly sure
the closeup of the topbreak in Last Crusade was the larger framed
Mark V, while all other revolvers he used in any film seem to be a
large frame Smith&Wesson.
Jeff/addesign
-=STaRaNTo=-
DHoots1507 (dhoot...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <517bh1$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "G. Hoffman"
: <tit...@hooked.net> writes:
:
: #
: #I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
: #Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
: #
: #--
: #George Hoffman tit...@hooked.net
:
: .38spl or the .455 ?
Did you also happen to notice that in one scene (the bar shootout) he
manages to fire 9 rounds out of it before reloading?
-=STaRaNTo=-
Charles Winters
DHoots1507 wrote:
#
# In article <517bh1$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "G. Hoffman"
# <tit...@hooked.net> writes:
#
# #
# #I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
# #
# #--
# #George Hoffman tit...@hooked.net
#
# In the books, he's armed with a .38spl Webley *only*. Is the Mk. VI a
# .38spl or the .455 ?
#
# *******************************************
# hoots...@tandem.com OR
# DHoot...@aol.com
# *******************************************
# "The first requisite of a good citizen in this Republic of ours is that
# he shall be able and willing to pull his own weight." Theodore Roosevelt
Dear Mr. Hoots: I recall seeing the first movie, Crusaders of the Lost
Ark. In it, Jones dispatched a threatening Dervish brandishing a huge
sword by pulling out what looked like a S&W M1917 Army service revolver.
One shot to the upper chest did the trick. Am I wrong? - CW
0000000
-=STaRaNTo=- wrote:
#
# : In article <517bh1$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "G. Hoffman"
# : <tit...@hooked.net> writes:
# :
# : #
# : #I saw "Indians Jones and the Last Crusade" last night and noticed that
# : #Indy was using a Webley Mk. VI revolver.
# : #
# : #--
# : #George Hoffman tit...@hooked.net
# :
# : In the books, he's armed with a .38spl Webley *only*. Is the Mk. VI a
# : .38spl or the .455 ?
#
# manages to fire 9 rounds out of it before reloading?
#
# -=STaRaNTo=-
In the movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark" in the bar scene near the
beginning, I see Indiana firing botha revolver and a 1911 Colt Auto - at
first I thought it was explainable by some action of the character, but
I have since realized that it is entirely inexplicable except as a
film-maker's glitch.
Andreas, Harry A
In article <5218m4$p...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, 0000000 <blu...@cnw.com> wrote:
##
## Did you also happen to notice that in one scene (the bar shootout) he
## manages to fire 9 rounds out of it before reloading?
##
## -=STaRaNTo=-
#In the movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark" in the bar scene near the
#beginning, I see Indiana firing botha revolver and a 1911 Colt Auto - at
#first I thought it was explainable by some action of the character, but
#I have since realized that it is entirely inexplicable except as a
#film-maker's glitch.
I don't think it is a glitch.
I also noticed that and cycled the VCR several times to catch the switch.
As I recall, he clearly albeit quickly [in the film] switched to the .45
auto. Just a minute later he is shown fishing for magazines in his jacket
pocket while behind cover when a big lug opens the door onto him and the
brawl ensues.
This scene is set up earlier while talking to Marcus Brody in his house.
He sez: "... and besides Marcus, you know how careful I am." as he throws
his revolver into his suitcase. A careful explorer would always carry a
backup.
The revolver he uses in the first film I always thought was a S&W 1917.
In the third he has definitly switched to a Webley topbreak .455. You can
see it in the size of the cylinders when he breaks it open. Considering
that the film is set in the mid-late 30's it would not have been
re-chambered to .45 ACP as many were during the war.
regards,
Harry Andreas hand...@msmail4.hac.com
NRA life, CRPA life
SASS#9122
--
A professional is a person who can do his best at a time when he doesn't
particularly feel like it. -Alistair Cooke
Bruce McIntosh
Charles Winters wrote:
# Dear Mr. Hoots: I recall seeing the first movie, Crusaders of the Lost
# Ark. In it, Jones dispatched a threatening Dervish brandishing a huge
# sword by pulling out what looked like a S&W M1917 Army service revolver.
# One shot to the upper chest did the trick. Am I wrong? - CWThis is correct. I recall from an interview that Indy and the Dervish
were supposed to get into this involved fight scene. They reshot it
several times, never quite getting it right. Finally, Harrison Ford
just said "**** it", pulled the pistol and shot the guy, totally ad
lib. Everyone thought it was great, and went with it. :-)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce H. McIntosh pers: afn3...@afn.org
U of Florida Division of Housing work: bru...@neufhou.mail.ufl.edu
http://www.afn.org/~afn37319
parental unit(Amanda Marie 1/5/94, Pending due 11/5/96))
minstrel(guitar) ferroequinologist(HO)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Burning like fire, falling like rain; I need to hear your voice again
cu...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
7In article <52btuv$h...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Bruce McIntosh <afn3...@afn.org> writes:
# Charles Winters wrote:
# # Dear Mr. Hoots: I recall seeing the first movie, Crusaders of the Lost
# # Ark. In it, Jones dispatched a threatening Dervish brandishing a huge
# # sword by pulling out what looked like a S&W M1917 Army service revolver.
# # One shot to the upper chest did the trick. Am I wrong? - CWThis is correct. I recall from an interview that Indy and the Dervi
It has been a while since I saw ROTLA, but I seem to recall that the
revolver in question was a top-break rather than a swing-out. I
think it was double action, so it might have been a Russian model.
Bob Curry
# ---------------------------------------------------
Jeff
cu...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
#7In article <52btuv$h...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Bruce McIntosh <afn3...@afn.org> writes:
## Charles Winters wrote:
## # Dear Mr. Hoots: I recall seeing the first movie, Crusaders of the Lost
## # Ark. In it, Jones dispatched a threatening Dervish brandishing a huge
## # sword by pulling out what looked like a S&W M1917 Army service revolver.
## # One shot to the upper chest did the trick. Am I wrong? - CWThis is correct. I recall from an interview that Indy and the Dervi
#It has been a while since I saw ROTLA, but I seem to recall that the
#revolver in question was a top-break rather than a swing-out. I
#think it was double action, so it might have been a Russian model.
Nope. It looks like a large frame M&P, such as the 1917.
The only top break I've seen in any IJ film was the Webley in the last
film that started this thread.
Jeff/addesign
Buy my T-shirts!!!! I need the money for more guns!!!!
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~addesign/t_other.htm
MatQuig
I still think that it has a shorter-than 5 1/2" barrel that is atandard on
the 1917 model. Anyone got the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" movie that can
stop action and give us a confimation on the real description of this gun?
Maybe we should E-mail the studio prop guys...MatQuig/aol
Cloyce Osborn
Jeff wrote:
#
# cu...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
#
# #7In article <52btuv$h...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Bruce McIntosh <afn3...@afn.org> writes:
# ## Charles Winters wrote:
# ## # Dear Mr. Hoots: I recall seeing the first movie, Crusaders of the Lost
# ## # Ark. In it, Jones dispatched a threatening Dervish brandishing a huge
# ## # sword by pulling out what looked like a S&W M1917 Army service revolver.
# ## # One shot to the upper chest did the trick. Am I wrong? - CWThis is correct. I recall from an interview that Indy and the Dervi
#
# #It has been a while since I saw ROTLA, but I seem to recall that the
# #revolver in question was a top-break rather than a swing-out. I
# #think it was double action, so it might have been a Russian model.
#
# Nope. It looks like a large frame M&P, such as the 1917.
# The only top break I've seen in any IJ film was the Webley in the last
# film that started this thread.
# I've watched the original ROTLA several times. My impression of the revolver used was
that it was an old "Triple Lock" S&W (aka 2nd model Hand Ejector). As I recall, they
were offered in .38 Special, .44 Special and .45 Colt (what some people erroneously call
".45 Long Colt") - there may have been other calibers but I can't recall them right now.
The Triple Lock was the same size frame as the current "N" frame but had a different
cylinder lockup arrangement. They're now highly prized as collector's items.
D. LEWIS
cu...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
: It has been a while since I saw ROTLA, but I seem to recall that the
: revolver in question was a top-break rather than a swing-out. I
: think it was double action, so it might have been a Russian model.
: Bob Curry
: # ---------------------------------------------------
Just stuck the Raiders tape in the VCR. The revolver has a square
butt, has no ejector shroud, does have a forward cylinder catch, has
non-adjustable sights, has a 3 1/2" to 4" barrel, and definately has a S&W
style cylinder release. There can be little doubt that it is a S&W K or L
frame. Contemporary calibers could have been .38 special, .38/44, .44
special, etc., although judging from the recoil it would seem that Jones
either has muscles of steel or it was a .38 special. But of course its
just a movie and, regardless of the caliber, reduced load blanks were
probably used which would explain the apparent lack of serious recoil.
Also in the movie a semi-auto is some times used, and although it
could be a 1911, it looks more like a high power to me (which would
explain why he didn't go dry that often in the bar-room fight).
-David Lewis
Robert Christman
MatQuig wrote:
#
# I still think that it has a shorter-than 5 1/2" barrel that is atandard on
# the 1917 model. Anyone got the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" movie that can
# stop action and give us a confimation on the real description of this gun?
# Maybe we should E-mail the studio prop guys...MatQuig/aol
I haven't checked the gun used in the actual shooting scenes but the one
he throws in his suitcase when packing in Raiders appeared to be a S&W
Triple Lock (New Century). These were available with various barrel
lengths from 4" to 7.5" in .44 S&W, .450 Eley, and .455 Mark II. It
could also have been a Hand Ejector Second Model (same frame, different
cylinder lockup) which was chambered in .44 S&W, .44-40, or .45 Colt.
Bob Christman NRA Life USN (Ret)
Jeff
Cloyce Osborn <cosb...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
#Jeff wrote:
##
## cu...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
##
## #7In article <52btuv$h...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Bruce McIntosh <afn3...@afn.org> writes:
## ## Charles Winters wrote:
## ## # Dear Mr. Hoots: I recall seeing the first movie, Crusaders of the Lost
## ## # Ark. In it, Jones dispatched a threatening Dervish brandishing a huge
## ## # sword by pulling out what looked like a S&W M1917 Army service revolver.
## ## # One shot to the upper chest did the trick. Am I wrong? - CWThis is correct. I recall from an interview that Indy and the Dervi
##
## #It has been a while since I saw ROTLA, but I seem to recall that the
## #revolver in question was a top-break rather than a swing-out. I
## #think it was double action, so it might have been a Russian model.
##
## Nope. It looks like a large frame M&P, such as the 1917.
## The only top break I've seen in any IJ film was the Webley in the last
## film that started this thread.
## I've watched the original ROTLA several times. My impression of the revolver used was
#that it was an old "Triple Lock" S&W (aka 2nd model Hand Ejector). As I recall, they
#were offered in .38 Special, .44 Special and .45 Colt (what some people erroneously call
#".45 Long Colt") - there may have been other calibers but I can't recall them right now.
# The Triple Lock was the same size frame as the current "N" frame but had a different
#cylinder lockup arrangement. They're now highly prized as collector's items.
I think it's safe to say it appears to be a large frame S&W H.E.,
but hard to nail it down without a clear picture. I can't find my
ROTLA video.
The Triple-Lock, or New Century, is the .44 Hand Ejector First Model,
and was available in .44 Russian, .44 S&W Special, .38-40 (.38WCF),
44-40 (.44WCF), and .45 Colt; Nickel or Blue, 5 inch or 6.5" barrel.
The Second Model H.E. eliminated the third locking point. .44S&W
Special was standard, but also chambered in 38-40, 44-40, and .45
Colt; 4", 5" and 6.5"
AFAIK, no large frame S&W was chambered for .38Spcl until the .38/44
Heavy Duty, a 1930 variant of the Third Model H.E.
The .455 H.E. had a first model (triple lock) and a 2nd model (no
third lock). Jinks provides no info on barrel lengths for .455 H.E.s.
(All above derived from Roy G. Jinks, History of Smith & Wesson)
The large-frame M&P is similar to the N-frame, but not identical.
N-frame grips will not fit a 1937 Brazilian contract M1917, and I
suspect the same is true for the original M1917s.
Indy's revolver could just as easily be the .38/.44 HD as the other
large frame H.E.s. The M1917, commercial variant, or the 1937 are most
logical, if we assume that he also carried what appears to be a 1911
that he used in the bar shootout. It makes sense for him to carry two
weapons in one caliber. Unfortunately, the only time we see a closeup
of Indy loading or checking the action is the topbreak closeup in Last
Crusade.
Finally--
"The old .45 Smith & Wesson cartridge with its short case has long
been obsolete and also the short Remington cartridge for the .45 Colt.
Today we often hear the .45 Colt Peacemaker cartridge referred to as
the .45 Long Colt. Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such
animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned
out in such profusion before, during, and after World War I they
would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the
.45 Long." ---Elmer Keith, Sixguns by Keith, 1955
Alan K. Sumrall
Harry Andreas wrote:
.......
# In the third he has definitly switched to a Webley topbreak .455. You can
# see it in the size of the cylinders when he breaks it open. Considering
# that the film is set in the mid-late 30's it would not have been
# re-chambered to .45 ACP as many were during the war.
#
# regards,
#
# Harry Andreas hand...@msmail4.hac.com
# NRA life, CRPA life
# SASS#9122
#Harry:
This is the first time that I have ever heard of the .455 Webley
Mk VI having been rechambered to 45 ACP during the war. Do you have any
proof of this? Don't think it happened. It has always been my
understanding that the cut cylinder was done by Commercial Importers to
sell the surplus Webley's on the American Market. I am open for any new
info. The job is ususally so sloppy I find it hard to believe any
arsenal was behind it...one of the reasons I get hot when I see "fixed"
Webley's being sold at exorbitant dealers as collectors guns.
Al Sumrall
a...@livingston.net
Kirk Hays
In article <52paii$d...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, D. LEWIS <dle...@nmsu.edu> wrote:
#
# Just stuck the Raiders tape in the VCR. The revolver has a square
#butt, has no ejector shroud, does have a forward cylinder catch, has
#non-adjustable sights, has a 3 1/2" to 4" barrel, and definately has a S&W
#style cylinder release. There can be little doubt that it is a S&W K or L
#frame.
I have a lot of doubt, since the L frame wasn't introduced until the late
1970's.
It may be a K frame, but is most likely an N frame.
If a K frame, the caliber would be .32 S&W, .38 S&W, or .38 Special.
If an N frame, the caliber could be .45 ACP, .44 Special, .455 Webley,
or .38/44. I don't recall if .44-40 was ever offered in that era.
#Contemporary calibers could have been .38 special, .38/44, .44
#special, etc., although judging from the recoil it would seem that Jones
#either has muscles of steel or it was a .38 special. But of course its
#just a movie and, regardless of the caliber, reduced load blanks were
#probably used which would explain the apparent lack of serious recoil.
Both .45 ACP and .455 Webley are pussycats in the big N frames, as is
the .38/44 when loaded to .38 Special levels.
--
Kirk Hays
[I don't speak for Sequent.]
jeffbd
D. LEWIS wrote:
#
# The Mk. VI was in .455. It looks quite simular to the Enfield Mk.
# 1 which later replaced the Mk. VI in British service except that it is
# much larger and (unlike later models of the Mk. 1) did not have a bobbed
# hammer spur. I'm pretty sure that it was the larger Mk. VI that was used
# in the third movie. Incidently, the Mk. 1 used .38 S&W (AKA .38/200), not
# the more powerful .38 special which is a slightly skinnier and much longer
# cartridge.
The Webley Mk I service revlover was adopted in 1887 and was a .455"
calibre revolver.
# The fact that the Mk. 1 was less effective than the marginal .38
# special would have been a good reason for adventurers facing mad
# swordsmen, tanks, airplanes, snakes, Nepalese thugs, the Gestapo, more
# snakes, Nazi Germany's navy and army, etc., etc., to go with something
# a bit more powerful.
The arm that you decribe as a 'Webley MK 1' in .38" cliber was not made
by Webley. It was made exclusively by the Enfield armourments works, and
was designated 'Enfield No 2 Mk I' and was first issued in 1932.
All of the revolvers used up to 1932 by the British Army were of .455"
calibre. If an officer had a revolver of a different calibre, then he
would have to carry his own ammunition supply. Being stuck in a trench
on the Wetern Front during WW I would preclude wandering down to his
local gun shop to get fresh ammunition.
The round used originally in the Enfield No 2 Mk I was a .38" with a
lead round nosed bullet. In 1938 a jacketed bullet was introduced.
Jeff
dle...@nmsu.edu (D. LEWIS) wrote:
#cu...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
#: It has been a while since I saw ROTLA, but I seem to recall that the
#: revolver in question was a top-break rather than a swing-out. I
#: think it was double action, so it might have been a Russian model.
# Just stuck the Raiders tape in the VCR. The revolver has a square
#butt, has no ejector shroud, does have a forward cylinder catch, has
#non-adjustable sights, has a 3 1/2" to 4" barrel, and definately has a S&W
#style cylinder release. There can be little doubt that it is a S&W K or L
#frame. Contemporary calibers could have been .38 special, .38/44, .44
#special, etc., although judging from the recoil it would seem that Jones
#either has muscles of steel or it was a .38 special. But of course its
#just a movie and, regardless of the caliber, reduced load blanks were
#probably used which would explain the apparent lack of serious recoil.
Correct on the lack of recoil with movie blanks.
Howver, there were no L-frames at that time (not that the prop. dept.
would know the difference), and 4" would be the minimum for a pre-war
44 H.E. The L-frames were introduced in 1985, and all have ejector
shrouds. See my other post in this thread for correct bbls and
calibers for pre-war H.E.s.
I can't find the ROTLA I recorded off the TV, so I can't study it now,
but I did look at it fairly carefully once before. (Just can't
remember anything!). Without something in the suitcase for scale, it's
hard to judge sizes, and a 5" barrel on a large frame could look
proportionally similar to a 3.5-4" on a k-frame. But in the Dervish
shooting, it appears to be a largeframe, and probably at least a 4"
barrel. (To the best o my recollection.)
# Also in the movie a semi-auto is some times used, and although it
#could be a 1911, it looks more like a high power to me (which would
#explain why he didn't go dry that often in the bar-room fight).
I'll have buy a ROTLA video. In the words of the bank robber in the
beginning of Dirty Harry, ". . . I gots ta know." I hope to have a
copy by tonight.
Meanwhile, I've studied Last Crusade, and I am reasonably certain the
topbreak, whic is also clearly used in the horse/tank desert chase, is
a Mark I Webley .455. The serial number(last 3 digits) is visible on
the open cylinder, so it was not re-faced for .45acp with moon clips.
It apears to be a 5". The shape of the grip, visible at the beginning
of the break open sequence, when he first pulls it from his belt (why
wasn't it in his holster?) is unique to the Mark I, and the gripstock
position is different from the smaller Mark IV .38/200.
Curious though, in single-framing the break-open sequence, it looks as
though cartridge rims are visible in the cylinder when he first pulls
the pistol from his belt.
I think I had confused the open suitcase scene in ROTLA with Last
Crusade, which contains no such scene, and nothing resembling
the S&W H.E.
Jeff
adde...@interaccess.com (Jeff) wrote:
<snip>
#I think it's safe to say it appears to be a large frame S&W H.E.,
#but hard to nail it down without a clear picture. I can't find my
#ROTLA video.
#The Triple-Lock, or New Century, is the .44 Hand Ejector First Model,
#and was available in .44 Russian, .44 S&W Special, .38-40 (.38WCF),
#44-40 (.44WCF), and .45 Colt; Nickel or Blue, 5 inch or 6.5" barrel.
#The Second Model H.E. eliminated the third locking point. .44S&W
#Special was standard, but also chambered in 38-40, 44-40, and .45
#Colt; 4", 5" and 6.5"
#AFAIK, no large frame S&W was chambered for .38Spcl until the .38/44
#Heavy Duty, a 1930 variant of the Third Model H.E.
<snip>
Ok, here's my final word on Indy's revolver. I purchased ROTLA today,
and carefully studied the pistol scenes.
Yes, the automatic in the bar gunfight is most likely a Browning
HiPower. The shape of the slide is clearly HP like, and not 1911. He
does not appear to use a revolver at all in the fight, although I may
go over the beginning of the sequence again to be sure. He ducks inot
a doorway at one point, and appears to be going into his coat,
presumably for another magazine. I haven't taken trhe time to count
his shots.
The revolver he throws in the suitcase can ONLY be a .44 H.E. 2d
Model, .455 H.E. 2d Model, M1917 (or Brazilian M1937), or a .45 H.E.
Model of 1950. As noted above, the second model was available in
44spc, .38-40, .44-40 and .45 Colt, in 4, 5 and 6.5". Indy's appears
to be a 4" with pre-war commercial diamond grips, although it has the
military lanyard swivel. Also, it appears to have been shortened, and
a slip on front side soldered on, as there appears to be a thin band
around the muzzle. The sight blade is the correct type for the period.
The reason it is not a .38 M&P or other K-frame S&W, is that the cyl.
release button is clearly visible in the suitcase scene. Both pistols
use the same size button, but on the smaller M&P, the back top corner
of the button is even with the curve of the top of the frame. On the
44 H.E. sereies and similar large frame Smiths, about 3/16" of the
frame side is visible above the release button, and that is the case
on Indy's pistol. Also, the proportions of the cylinder suggest the
larger frame. I have a Victory model and a Brazilian, as well as
several books, which I referred to while studying the film. My 1937
has the same pre-war diamond grips.
The New Century (Triple Lock) or First model .44 H.E., the third,
fourth, and the .38/44 HD, ALL have shrouded ejectors. Indy's clearly
is not shrouded. Ergo, it must be a Second Model, 1917, 1937, or 1950.
In "Last Crusade," when Indy surrenders his pistol in the knight's
tomb, he holds it up in plain view, and it is clearly a Mark 1 Webley
in .455, 5 or 6" barrel, and appears to be the only pistol he uses in
this film. The holster is a flapped canvas British military type,
while the ROTLA holster is brown leather with flap.
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D. LEWIS
Kirk Hays (kh...@sequent.com) wrote:: # Just stuck the Raiders tape in the VCR. The revolver has a square
: #butt, has no ejector shroud, does have a forward cylinder catch, has
: #non-adjustable sights, has a 3 1/2" to 4" barrel, and definately has a S&W
: #style cylinder release. There can be little doubt that it is a S&W K or L
: #frame.
: I have a lot of doubt, since the L frame wasn't introduced until the late
: 1970's.
Sorry, I meant N frame, not L frame.
Stuck the tape in again and this time froze a frame and pulled out
a pair of calipers and a ruler. The frozen scene had the gun pointing at
a slight downward angle, which would alter the measurements a little (due
to perspective), but I took some measurements and compared the ratios of
various components (which I would assume are kind of standard, i.e., the
length of the cylinder release and the length of the trigger guard) to
some measurements on a K frame that I have. The ratios (of parts which I
_assume_ are standard) were the same withen expected measuring error, and
so from there I tried to extrapolate the known measurements of my K frame
against the gun on the TV screen using a ratio relating the (assumably)
standard parts on my K frame against the (assumably) standard parts on
the gun on TV.
If my method was correct, the diameter of the cylinder was 1.65",
the length of the cylinder was 1.75", the length of the barrel (from the
cylinder gap to the muzzle) was 3.8", the length of the ejector (from the
end of the ejector rod to the crane) was 1.4", and the width of the crane
(at its widest point) was 0.75". Measurements significantly different
from a modern K frame include a larger diameter cylinder. The barrel on
Indy's gun is tapered and appears to have a diameter of .5" at the muzzle.
Of course, if my assumption that S&W hasn't significantly changed the
dimensions of their cylinder releases and trigger guards over the years is
incorrect, the measurements that I've extrapolated are incorrect also.
Any S&W buffs out there that can shed some light on this?
-David Lewis
D. LEWIS
jeffbd (jbd...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au) wrote:
: D. LEWIS wrote:
: #
: # The Mk. VI was in .455. It looks quite simular to the Enfield Mk.
: # 1 which later replaced the Mk. VI in British service except that it is
: # much larger and (unlike later models of the Mk. 1) did not have a bobbed
: # hammer spur. I'm pretty sure that it was the larger Mk. VI that was used
: # in the third movie. Incidently, the Mk. 1 used .38 S&W (AKA .38/200), not
: # the more powerful .38 special which is a slightly skinnier and much longer
: # cartridge.
: The arm that you decribe as a 'Webley MK 1' in .38" cliber was not made
: by Webley. It was made exclusively by the Enfield armourments works, and
: was designated 'Enfield No 2 Mk I' and was first issued in 1932.
In looking at my original post I fail to find where I ever
described anything as a 'Webley MK 1', although I must say that what
you've written to correct what I never said is interesting reading.
: The round used originally in the Enfield No 2 Mk I was a .38" with a
: lead round nosed bullet. In 1938 a jacketed bullet was introduced.
I thought that the jacketed bullet was adopted on October 11,
1937, not during 1938. Apparently the jacketed bullet was adopted due to
a change in the British interpretation of the Hauge Convention. It was
the less than wonderful performance with the jacketed round which made a
reputation as a poor man-stoper. The original lead bullet, acording to
the British military, was roughly equal to the .455 in terms of stopping
power. That seems a bit dubious, but was the reason for going to the
smaller arm.
-David Lewis
Michael Kisor
# #There can be little doubt that it is a S&W K or L
# #frame...
#
# there were no L-frames at that time (not that the prop. dept.
# would know the difference), and 4" would be the minimum for a pre-war
# 44 H.E. The L-frames were introduced in 1985, and all have ejector
# shrouds...
If L-frames weren't introduced until 1985, it is impossible for one to
have been used as a prop in "Raiders of the Lost Ark." Raiders was
released in 1981 (summer i think -- and most likely filmed in 1980).
MRLNE95
According to an article I read in an old issue of "Firepower" Magazine,
Indy had a S&W M1917 in "Raiders." I don't know about the other movies.
I do remember he used an auto in the barfight in Nepal, and he also had it
on the ship going out of Cairo. I am not sure what it was, some kind of
M1911 of HiPower. My guess it was an M1911, because the ammo would
interchange with his M1917.
Erik D. Pakieser (MRL...@aol.com)
"Life, death, and justice are powerful subjects, and they are impossible
to discuss without offending someone."
MatQuig
Let's not forget this is HOLLYWOOD, and the prop guys could have produced
anything. I am familiar with the 1917 S&W, and the barrel on the
"Raiders" gun is just not that long (1917 is 5.5"). 4 and 4.5" barrels
were on early N-frames, and I believe it is one of these, caliber unknown.
If memory serves me correctly, the gun has a lanyard ring, which could
have been added, or the barrel cut down on a 1917, making it a custom job.
It would be nice to believe that Indy knew just what he wanted, and had
it cut down and customized. Harrison Ford lives out in Jackson Hole, WY.
Maybe we should give hime a call. Heard he goes into the the hardware
store a lot, as he loves to do carpentry work, so maybe I'll just hang out
there and ask him kind of casual-like, so as to not be a
bother.....MatQuig/aol
Jeff
hik...@magicpubs.com (Michael Kisor) wrote:
## #There can be little doubt that it is a S&W K or L
## #frame...
##
## there were no L-frames at that time (not that the prop. dept.
## would know the difference), and 4" would be the minimum for a pre-war
## 44 H.E. The L-frames were introduced in 1985, and all have ejector
## shrouds...
#If L-frames weren't introduced until 1985, it is impossible for one to
#have been used as a prop in "Raiders of the Lost Ark." Raiders was
#released in 1981 (summer i think -- and most likely filmed in 1980).
Except that all L-frames have ejector shrouds. See my "Last Word" post
on Indy's revolvers.
Benjamin Costello
I don't know about the revolver in "Raiders of the Lost Ark", but I know
that in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" Indiana Jones carries an old
British Webly revolver.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben "Magister Scurrarum" Costello Ya Pays Your Money,
cost...@U.Arizona.EDU Ya Takes Your Chances.
-Popeye
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Kisor
# ## #There can be little doubt that it is a S&W K or L
# ## #frame...
# ##
# ## 44 H.E. The L-frames were introduced in 1985, and all have ejector
# ## shrouds...
#
# #If L-frames weren't introduced until 1985, it is impossible for one to
# #have been used as a prop in "Raiders of the Lost Ark." Raiders was
# #released in 1981 (summer i think -- and most likely filmed in 1980).
#
# Except that all L-frames have ejector shrouds. See my "Last Word" post
# on Indy's revolvers.
I still think it would be pretty difficult to film a gun four years
before the first of its kind is manufactured. ;-)
Jeff
mat...@aol.com (MatQuig) wrote:
#Let's not forget this is HOLLYWOOD, and the prop guys could have produced
#anything. I am familiar with the 1917 S&W, and the barrel on the
#"Raiders" gun is just not that long (1917 is 5.5"). 4 and 4.5" barrels
#were on early N-frames, and I believe it is one of these, caliber unknown.
# If memory serves me correctly, the gun has a lanyard ring, which could
#have been added, or the barrel cut down on a 1917, making it a custom job.
# It would be nice to believe that Indy knew just what he wanted, and had
#it cut down and customized. Harrison Ford lives out in Jackson Hole, WY.
#Maybe we should give hime a call. Heard he goes into the the hardware
#store a lot, as he loves to do carpentry work, so maybe I'll just hang out
#there and ask him kind of casual-like, so as to not be a
#bother.....MatQuig/aol
If you freeze frame on the scene where he tosses it in his suitcase,
the muzzle appears to have a thin band even with and the width of the
front sight, which suggests a shortened barrel with a slip on sight.
Other than barrel length, in every regard this pistol has to be a .44
H.E. Second Model, 1917, 1937, or 1950. No other S&Ws have the
unshrouded ejector, in a large frame. The .44HE 2nd mdl was available
in 4, 5, and 6.5" barrel. Also, the .45acps have shorter cylinders
with the bbl extending into the frame. Indy's appears longer, so I'd
think .44spc, .44/40 or .45LC.
I have a 1937 with a 3" barrel, which was cut down, and the correct
blade sight added, identical to Indy's, except shorter barrel and
without that sight band. It was one of three 3" 1937's available from
a wholesaler. The 1917 and 1937 were also popularly converted to
"bellywumpers," or large calibre short barrel CWs, by such noted
smiths as Armand Swenson.
Alan K. Sumrall
MRLNE95 wrote:
#
# According to an article I read in an old issue of "Firepower" Magazine,
# Indy had a S&W M1917 in "Raiders." I don't know about the other movies.
# I do remember he used an auto in the barfight in Nepal, and he also had it
# on the ship going out of Cairo. I am not sure what it was, some kind of
# M1911 of HiPower. My guess it was an M1911, because the ammo would
# interchange with his M1917.
#
# Erik D. Pakieser (MRL...@aol.com)
#
# "Life, death, and justice are powerful subjects, and they are impossible
# to discuss without offending someone."
I have always been told (by who? I have no idea...maybe its that
"somebody" that creates so much misinformation) that in the movies 9/mm
are usually used as opposed to .45 ACP due to the greater reliability of
9/mm autos with blanks (lighter slide, etc.). I have seen several .45's
in movies that appear to be Star Model B's. I had a Star Model B, it
was very close in appearance to the .45 but the giveaway in the movies
was the exposed extractor(?) piece on the left side of the slide. It
may have been that that 9/mm was just an available and convenient prop
from Stemrick gun rentals.
AL