Titanium Bullets?
John Kruse
A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal (a machinist with
too much time on his hands I guess). If so, what should the thickness
of the copper jacket be for a .30 or 30.06 round?
Carl Donath
John Kruse wrote:
#
# A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
# private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal
Sounds like a waste of perfectly good titanium...
--
--- mailto:ctdo...@rpa.net ------------------------------------------
------------------------------------ http://www2.rpa.net/~ctdonath ---
Ken Finney
John Kruse wrote:
#
# A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
# too much time on his hands I guess). If so, what should the thickness
# of the copper jacket be for a .30 or 30.06 round?
I won't dare to guess why someone would want something like this, but
titanium, other than being a bear to machine is LIGHT. Bullets need to
be made out of things like lead, bismuth, or depleted uranium because
these things are HEAVY.
Dan Brown
John Kruse <jkr...@ball.com> wrote:
# A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
# private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal (a machinist with
# too much time on his hands I guess).
It would be perfectly legal (federally--state laws may vary),
if useless. The hardness would probably help penetration, but the low
density would tend to hurt it. Of course, they'd be as expensive as
all hell, too, not to mention (as you suggest) taking half of forever
to make.
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, da...@a.crl.com
Finger bro...@holmes.uchastings.edu for public key & Geek Code
E-Mail published at my discretion.
Mike Sumner
John Kruse wrote:
#
# private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal (a machinist with
# of the copper jacket be for a .30 or 30.06 round?
VERY illegal. Steel, tungston, solid bronze, etc are all considered
Armor Piercing and Illegal. But...for acedimic study, the core, titaium
in this case, should be at least a few thousands less than the diameter
of the lands of the rifling of the gun it will be fired in. Then, make
the jacket as thick as necessary to make the bullet the correct
diameter. The importand thing is to make sure only the copper touches
the barrel.
ra...@ih4ssd.ih.lucent.com
Why would it be illegal under Federal law? Doesn't Federal law simply
proscribe the use of seven different bullet materials (let me think,
(1) iron, (2) steel, (3) bronze, (4) depleted uranium, (5) copper and
(6) nickel or (7) brass?)
On the other hand, in the People's Republic of Illinois law, thanks
the the efforts of the "GUN LOBBY" anything other than LEAD is illegal
(yes, this means your anti-werewolf Silver bullets are verboten!) as
is your Teflon coated bullets! One could can only conclude the anti-gun
lobby in Illinois is dominated by ghouls; an accusation I'm sure they
would deny as they slither among their slimey brethren... :-(
The only other anti-bullet material law now on the books thanks to KKKlinton
is one preventing bullet jackets from being too much a percentage of the
total mass of the bullet (25%??); apparently the KKKlinton regime was afraid
it's Nazi goons would taken out by heavily jacketed Swedish 9mm Para rounds.
That doesn't mean there aren't other very hard heavy materials that would
be legal under the current Federal statutes aren't feasible to construct; a
molybdenum bullet with a jacket is certainly legal and could be constructed
with some difficulty (it's VERY hard)...
Tom Mosca
Dear John,
Titanium cored bullets are currently in commercial production.
They are expensive, but may still be cheaper than home-made.
Take care, Tom
On 11 Nov 1996, John Kruse wrote:
# A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
# private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal (a machinist with
# too much time on his hands I guess). If so, what should the thickness
# of the copper jacket be for a .30 or 30.06 round?
#
#
#
William Barwell
In article <3287FA...@boeing.com>,
Ken Finney <kenneth....@boeing.com> wrote:
#John Kruse wrote:
##
## A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
## private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal (a machinist with
## too much time on his hands I guess). If so, what should the thickness
## of the copper jacket be for a .30 or 30.06 round?
#
#I won't dare to guess why someone would want something like this, but
#titanium, other than being a bear to machine is LIGHT. Bullets need to
#be made out of things like lead, bismuth, or depleted uranium because
#these things are HEAVY.
#
Not necessarily. Some light bullets have their uses.
For example Magsafe Agent Loads were very light +P+
bullets that travelled fast enough in larger calibers
to penetrate body armour.
French made THV bullets were a hard copper alloy, hollow
and with a peculiar 'reverse ogive' shape. Launched from a .357 magnum
loaded to +P, HTVs weighing only 45 grains reached 2,800 FPS.
Body armour won't stop them. French anti-terrorist squads
use these. If it hits flesh, the flesh almost literally explodes,
and three inch entry wounds result. The exit wound is usually larger.
I am not sure a titanium bullet would be a good idea in a steel barrel,
probably being hard on a barrel, possibly even dangerous if it galled and
seized upon being fired.
A similar bullet to the THV was the Archane. It was an 80 grain
pointed .357 copper bullet that had a 2,400 FPS velocity.
These were expensive because each bullet was made on a lathe.
These bullets did not have much range, they lose velocity quickly, but
pistol bullets are meant to have much range anyway. At reasonable
ranges, these lightweight type bullets are pretty nasty.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
William Barwell
In article <56ap9c$g...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Michael Zimmet <mzi...@technetplus.net> wrote:
#Seeing as how we're talking titanium, would anyone care to comment on
#the advantages/disadvantages of a titanium gun? Say, a titanium
#1911A1, or a titanium .44 magnum revolver? (I assume one of the big
#disadvantages would be that the gun would cost as much as a BMW
#sedan.)
#
#Now, I'm not talking about titanium plating, or small titanium parts
#(firing pin, and the like).
#
#Should I expect to see a $5,000, titanium Colt Anaconda anytime soon?
#Is titanium rust-proof? I know it's hard as anything, but is it the
#right kind of hardness and strength for a gun? (As you can tell,
#metalurgy isn't my area of expertise.)
#
I have seen a titanium .50 caliber AE rifle. I do not remember who made
it. I was working at a place where we had a neighbor in the industrial
park who was a photographer. He had us make a plexiglass stand
to hold this gun up in a fashion the stand would not be seen when he
photographed this beast.
It was beautifully made and surprisingly light. 5 1/2 pounds I was told.
This was 7 or 8 years ago.
One problem with titanium is that titanium on titanium galls
terribly. Titanium also reacts badly with other metals. I have had
friends who were bicycle mechanics who worked with expensive bikes
where titanium parts were not uncommon. Frozen bolts and other problems
were common. Probably these sort of problems are what would make
titanium guns unlikely on a production basis.
Keith Whaley
Carl Donath wrote:
#
# #
# # private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal
#
# Sounds like a waste of perfectly good titanium...
#
# --
# --- mailto:ctdo...@rpa.net ------------------------------------------
# ------------------------------------ http://www2.rpa.net/~ctdonath ---
I think it would be perfectly legal to *manufacture* Titanium bullets -
it's in the selling of them or the making them into cartridges or the
shooting of them where you might get into trouble. . .
Depends on your state laws and such, but look for "armor piercing" and
other words about full metallic (non-lead) bullets.
They might say "iron-containing" or words like that, that are
prohibited, but if you try to get around the legal definition by making
Titanium bullets, you might STILL have your tip in the wringer. . .
keith
Gene Pitts
Ken Finney wrote:
#
# John Kruse wrote:
# #
# # A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
# # too much time on his hands I guess). If so, what should the thickness
# # of the copper jacket be for a .30 or 30.06 round?
#
# I won't dare to guess why someone would want something like this, but
# titanium, other than being a bear to machine is LIGHT. Bullets need to
# be made out of things like lead, bismuth, or depleted uranium because
# these things are HEAVY.
I think his machinist friend isn't telling everything. This bullet
would be very hard, very light, and have a very high muzzle velocity.
Suspect its kinetic energy would be very high... Like you, I don't even
want to begin guessing what this guy has in mind...
-woods b.
In article <3287A8...@ball.com>, John Kruse <jkr...@ball.com> wrote:
#A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
#private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal (a machinist with
#too much time on his hands I guess). If so, what should the thickness
#of the copper jacket be for a .30 or 30.06 round?
#
I'm unaware of any "laws" against Titanium bullets. However,
using titanium seems foolish to me - reduces ballistic coeff.
and mismatched with likely barrel twist rates. Maybe your friend
should find some gold laying around and jacket it - that would
be more like it. Maybe the T. bullets could be sold as a set
with T firing pins... :-)
BDW
Tyson Lee
Actually, Titanium rounds wouldn't be illegal unless they were
able to be discharged from a handgun. At least that what it states in
the BATF dealer handbook.
T.L.
Eric W. Bryant
Michael Zimmet (mzi...@technetplus.net) wrote:
[snip]
:* Should I expect to see a $5,000, titanium Colt Anaconda anytime soon?
:* Is titanium rust-proof? I know it's hard as anything, but is it the
:* right kind of hardness and strength for a gun? (As you can tell,
:* metalurgy isn't my area of expertise.)
:*
OK, to answer your questions first - yes, titanium is very
corrosion-resistant (it forms an oxide layer that is extremely tough),
and no, I don't think you could use it for a gun by just replacing
steel.
First off, titanium is not very hard. It is, however, difficult to
machine as it tends to gall (stick to other metals, including itself).
This would also make, say, slide operation somewhat less than smooth.
You certainly wouldn't want to use it for sears, or anything that would
affect trigger smoothness. Titanium is rather tough (it's very elastic, as
metals go), but it's ultimate strength is below that of most chrome-moly
steels. You could make a very strong gun out of it, one that would be
lighter than it's steel counterpart (due to its lighter density), but it
would be bulky. I wouldn't want to try just replacing critical parts
(like receivers, cylinders, bolts, etc.) with titanium parts of the
exact same dimentions, as you'd loose strength.
It would be an interesting exercise to design a gun around titanium
parts, but I don't think it would work nearly as well as its steel
counterpart (due to the galling problem) and would probably cost a
small fortune (material and machining costs). With a nicely polished
or bead-blasted surface, though, you'd get the looks at the range:)
--
Eric Bryant Electrical Engineering undergraduate
ewbr...@mtu.edu Michigan Technological University
finger ewbr...@kirchhoff1.ee.mtu.edu for various info
Dan Brown
Mike Sumner <psyc...@smartlink.com> wrote:
# VERY illegal. Steel, tungston, solid bronze, etc are all considered
# Armor Piercing and Illegal. But...for acedimic study, the core, titaium
Yes, steel, tungsten, and bronze (among others) in _handgun_
ammo are considered armor piercing. However, titanium is not on the
list, unless there's another definition than the one at 18 USC sec.
921 (a) (17) (B).
Michael Duffy
ra...@ih4ssd.ih.lucent.com wrote:
#
# |# A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
# |# private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal (a machinist with
# |# too much time on his hands I guess). If so, what should the thickness
# |# of the copper jacket be for a .30 or 30.06 round?
#
# |Armor Piercing and Illegal. But...for acedimic study, the core, titaium
# |of the lands of the rifling of the gun it will be fired in. Then, make
# |the jacket as thick as necessary to make the bullet the correct
# |diameter. The importand thing is to make sure only the copper touches
# |the barrel.
#
# Why would it be illegal under Federal law? Doesn't Federal law simply
# proscribe the use of seven different bullet materials (let me think,
# (1) iron, (2) steel, (3) bronze, (4) depleted uranium, (5) copper and
# (6) nickel or (7) brass?)
#
# On the other hand, in the People's Republic of Illinois law, thanks
# the the efforts of the "GUN LOBBY" anything other than LEAD is illegal
# (yes, this means your anti-werewolf Silver bullets are verboten!) as
# is your Teflon coated bullets! One could can only conclude the anti-gun
# lobby in Illinois is dominated by ghouls; an accusation I'm sure they
# would deny as they slither among their slimey brethren... :-(
#
# The only other anti-bullet material law now on the books thanks to KKKlinton
# is one preventing bullet jackets from being too much a percentage of the
# total mass of the bullet (25%??); apparently the KKKlinton regime was afraid
# it's Nazi goons would taken out by heavily jacketed Swedish 9mm Para rounds.
#
# That doesn't mean there aren't other very hard heavy materials that would
# be legal under the current Federal statutes aren't feasible to construct; a
# molybdenum bullet with a jacket is certainly legal and could be constructed
# with some difficulty (it's VERY hard)...
Actually I believe that the only AP ammo that is banned by the ATF, is
any that can be fired from a pistol. Or one that is made in pistol
calibers.
Today I can go down to the local gun store and buy Lake City
30.06 AP steelcore blacktips. Or, SS109 or M885 steel core .223
greentips.
Yet I believe that it is illegal to make your own.
George Hough
John Kruse <jkr...@ball.com> wrote in article <3287A8...@ball.com>...
# A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
# private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal (a machinist with
# too much time on his hands I guess). If so, what should the thickness
# of the copper jacket be for a .30 or 30.06 round?
#
#
There is an excellent article on titanium bullets in Precision Shooting
magazine. A copy of this article can be found at
http://www.shooters.com/index.htm
follow the link under featured articles to Precision Shooting magazines
section and you will find the article listed there. They do not offer
technical information there but there are names of the innovators of the
bullet who may be of some assistance. George Hough
Ordinary_Guy
mzi...@technetplus.net (Michael Zimmet) wrote:
#Seeing as how we're talking titanium, would anyone care to comment on
#the advantages/disadvantages of a titanium gun? Say, a titanium
#1911A1, or a titanium .44 magnum revolver? (I assume one of the big
#disadvantages would be that the gun would cost as much as a BMW
#sedan.)
#Now, I'm not talking about titanium plating, or small titanium parts
#(firing pin, and the like).
#Should I expect to see a $5,000, titanium Colt Anaconda anytime soon?
#Is titanium rust-proof? I know it's hard as anything, but is it the
#right kind of hardness and strength for a gun? (As you can tell,
#metalurgy isn't my area of expertise.)
Michael,
Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc.'s Pinetree Castings Unit is a leader in
titanium casting (e.g., the Callaway Big Bertha). Ruger has made many
titanium prototypes but has no plans as of this date to make
all-titanium guns. They have implied that the use of titanium for
selected gun parts was a possibility.
Regards,
Walt
Ruger Collectors' Association #97
John Kepler
I'll add another reason for asking why the heck anyone would want to make
a titanium core bullet.......the stuff has a weird and and quite high
bending modulus. The stuff is tougher than a $2 steak in shear, but
bends like taffy! All that and a pill that would have to be 2" long to
mass 100 gr.! Talk about your solution searching for a problem!!!
John
George Hough
# There is an excellent article on titanium bullets in Precision Shooting
# magazine. A copy of this article can be found at
#
# http://www.shooters.com/index.htm
#
# follow the link under featured articles to Precision Shooting magazines
# section and you will find the article listed there. They do not offer
# technical information there but there are names of the innovators of the
# bullet who may be of some assistance. George Hough
I must correct myself before I get toasted. The article referred to speaks
of TUNGSTEN bullets, NOT titanium. Sound alike anyway. George Hough
-woods b.
In article <56ap9c$g...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Michael Zimmet <mzi...@technetplus.net> wrote:
#Seeing as how we're talking titanium, would anyone care to comment on
#the advantages/disadvantages of a titanium gun? Say, a titanium
#1911A1, or a titanium .44 magnum revolver? (I assume one of the big
#disadvantages would be that the gun would cost as much as a BMW
#sedan.)
#
#Is titanium rust-proof? I know it's hard as anything, but is it the
#right kind of hardness and strength for a gun? (As you can tell,
#metalurgy isn't my area of expertise.)
I'm not a metalurgist either. But the gunmaker with probably the
most expertise in that field is Sturm Ruger & co. They have done
a lot of work in Titanium - eg, they do the castings for many
titanium golf clubs that have hit the market the last 2 years.
They have played with titanium for guns but, there are some
problems with titanium's primary use in guns: expense, difficult
to machine (cast parts also need some machining & finishing), re-
sistance to wear, obtaining both the toughness & hardness needed
etc. {There's an article by Ruger in the December Guns & Ammo
which gets into this issue.}
BDW
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
On Ti for a gun, I was reminded that Ti is sensitive to contamination by
other metals and chemcals, and might have to be religated to parts that
wouldn't kill you if they broke. A frame or other major portion of a gun
could well be done in Ti, but barrels would be iffy, and would need a
bore liner to prevent galling
The Polymath
Michael Zimmet <mzi...@technetplus.net> wrote in article
<3288d639...@luzskru.cpcnet.com>...
| Seeing as how we're talking titanium, would anyone care to comment on
The useful aspects of titanium are: Approximate strength of steel,
approximate weight of aluminum, retains its strength at unusually high
temperatures.
Use in an application that doesn't require at least two of the above is
pure hype (and expensive hype, too).
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP)
poly...@pacbell.net
http://www.babcom.com/polymath
(818) 882-6309
Mark McWillis
Michael Zimmet wrote:
#
# Seeing as how we're talking titanium, would anyone care to comment on
# the advantages/disadvantages of a titanium gun? Say, a titanium
# 1911A1, or a titanium .44 magnum revolver? (I assume one of the big
# disadvantages would be that the gun would cost as much as a BMW
# sedan.)
#
# Now, I'm not talking about titanium plating, or small titanium parts
# (firing pin, and the like).
#
# Should I expect to see a $5,000, titanium Colt Anaconda anytime soon?
# Is titanium rust-proof? I know it's hard as anything, but is it the
# right kind of hardness and strength for a gun? (As you can tell,
# metalurgy isn't my area of expertise.)
--
There have been attempts at this over the years. I believe that Ruger is
messing around with it now. The trick, if you want to call it that, is
to cast, or forge, the Ti as close to net shape as possible. This cuts
down on machining. This is also how Ruger makes nearly everything.
For some perspective Nesika Bay makes a Benchrest action in your choice
of 17-4 Stainless or titanium. 17-4 is about $1300.00 Ti is about
$4500.00, last time I checked.
Mark McWillis
sr...@aol.com
Titanium is both very hard and very resistant to oxidation...
but for the money you could buy a crate full and evrybody you know could
have a pair of 1911's
With Kindest Regards,
Scott
Eric W. Bryant
The Polymath (poly...@pacbell.net) wrote:
:*
:* The useful aspects of titanium are: Approximate strength of steel,
:* approximate weight of aluminum, retains its strength at unusually high
:* temperatures.
:*
Careful on this one. It's twice as heavy as aluminum, so you can't just
go replacing Al parts with Ti ones - they'd be heavy if they were of
the same design (you could redesign them to be stronger and lighter
weight than equivilant Al parts, but that would add even more cost).
It's also not neary as strong as steel, so you wouldn't want to
replace, say, a bolt with Ti piece of the same size. Once again, with
a proper redesign, you could get the same strength, but it would be a
larger part.
:* Use in an application that doesn't require at least two of the above is
:* pure hype (and expensive hype, too).
:*
You're right on the money here. For examples of excessive marketing of
titanium parts, see the bike industry.
:* --
:* The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP)
:* poly...@pacbell.net
:* http://www.babcom.com/polymath
:* (818) 882-6309
:*
:*
John Scott McNab
In article <56bhf0$j...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
William Barwell <wbar...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> wrote:
##John Kruse wrote:
###
### A friend of mine unable to access rec.guns would like to know if the
### private manufacture of titamium bullets would be legal (a machinist with
### too much time on his hands I guess). If so, what should the thickness
#
#I am not sure a titanium bullet would be a good idea in a steel barrel,
#probably being hard on a barrel, possibly even dangerous if it galled and
#seized upon being fired.
How about paper patching the titanium bullet?
-John Scott McNab
#########################################################################
#########################################################################
Dan Brown
Michael Duffy <mduff...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
# Today I can go down to the local gun store and buy Lake City
# 30.06 AP steelcore blacktips. Or, SS109 or M885 steel core .223
# greentips.
SS109 isn't AP anyway, even if it were handgun ammo. AP ammo
is defined as handgun ammo "which is constructed _entirely_ (excluding
thepresence of traces of other substances)" of the "evil" metals.
Since the SS109 bullet has only a partial steel core, it isn't a
problem.
Marko Cunningham
# #I am not sure a titanium bullet would be a good idea in a steel barrel,
# #probably being hard on a barrel, possibly even dangerous if it galled
and
# #seized upon being fired.
#
Titanium is a lousy bullet material. It is too hard to be comfortably
worked with, and it is way too light for this purpose. Also, it would wreak
havoc on any barrel. It would make nice, light, robust cases, though.
The Polymath
Eric W. Bryant <ewbr...@mtu.edu> wrote in article
<56dn08$o...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
|The Polymath (poly...@pacbell.net) wrote:
|:*The useful aspects of titanium are: Approximate strength of steel,
|:*approximate weight of aluminum, retains its strength at unusually high
|:*temperatures.
|Careful on this one. It's twice as heavy as aluminum, so you can't just
|go replacing Al parts with Ti ones - they'd be heavy if they were of
|the same design (you could redesign them to be stronger and lighter
|weight than equivilant Al parts, but that would add even more cost).
|
|It's also not neary as strong as steel, so you wouldn't want to
|replace, say, a bolt with Ti piece of the same size. Once again, with
|a proper redesign, you could get the same strength, but it would be a
|larger part.
You're the second person who's corrected me, so I apologize for the
incorrect information. I was repeating from memory what I was taught in
A&P mechanic school, back about 1969 or so. If my memory's right, they got
it wrong.
Sorry about that.
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP)
JT McBride
An additional problem with a Titanium gun is the metal's reaction to
exposure to halides, significantly the chlorides found in many gun
cleaning solvents. Halogenated titanium looses all tensile strength,
becoming extremely brittle. You wouldn't want to shoot a Ti gun that
you didn't know the complete history of.
I think this argues strongly against it's use in parts. Note that the
Ti firing pins advertised around, are plated to protect the Ti.
Jim
--
"There is already a ban on ALL CRIME. It is not working." - Thomas Sowell
Michael Spangler
In article <56dn08$o...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, ewbr...@mtu.edu (Eric W.
Bryant) wrote:
#The Polymath (poly...@pacbell.net) wrote:
#:*
#:* The useful aspects of titanium are: Approximate strength of steel,
#:* approximate weight of aluminum, retains its strength at unusually high
#:* temperatures.
#:*
#
#Careful on this one. It's twice as heavy as aluminum, so you can't just
#go replacing Al parts with Ti ones - they'd be heavy if they were of
#the same design (you could redesign them to be stronger and lighter
#weight than equivilant Al parts, but that would add even more cost).
#
#It's also not neary as strong as steel, so you wouldn't want to
#replace, say, a bolt with Ti piece of the same size. Once again, with
#a proper redesign, you could get the same strength, but it would be a
#larger part.
#
Actually, it's stronger than steel, although it might not be more rigid,
depending on the alloy.
Very corrosion resistant, unless it gets too hot, then it burns hotter
than magnesium. I've seen a Titanium fire, and I don't want to ever see
one again.
A Ti barrel shouldn't catch fire, but the bullets might if they aren't
jacketed thick enough. Hell of a tracer.
Personally, I'll stick to blued steel.
Mike S.
--
Mike Spangler
University of Idaho
span...@uidaho.edu
Keith Whaley
The Polymath wrote:
#
# Eric W. Bryant <ewbr...@mtu.edu> wrote in article
# <56dn08$o...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# |The Polymath (poly...@pacbell.net) wrote:
#
# |:*The useful aspects of titanium are: Approximate strength of steel,
# |:*approximate weight of aluminum, retains its strength at unusually high
# |:*temperatures.
#
# |Careful on this one. It's twice as heavy as aluminum, so you can't just
# |go replacing Al parts with Ti ones - they'd be heavy if they were of
# |the same design (you could redesign them to be stronger and lighter
# |weight than equivilant Al parts, but that would add even more cost).
# |
# |It's also not neary as strong as steel, so you wouldn't want to
# |replace, say, a bolt with Ti piece of the same size. Once again, with
# |a proper redesign, you could get the same strength, but it would be a
# |larger part.
#
# You're the second person who's corrected me, so I apologize for the
# incorrect information. I was repeating from memory what I was taught in
# A&P mechanic school, back about 1969 or so. If my memory's right, they got
# it wrong.
#
# Sorry about that.
#
# --
# The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP)
# poly...@pacbell.net
# http://www.babcom.com/polymath
# (818) 882-6309
Sorry guys, but there are STILL some inaccuracies and misconceptions
here. . .
Titanium is NOT twice as heavy as aluminum.
Alum. is about .099-.100 lb./cu. in., while Titanium, in almost any of
it's alloys, is about .160-.161 lb./cu. in.
Strength-wise, Titanium 6Al4V, for instance, can be heat-treated up to
WAY beyond that of most steels, when it comes to pure ultimate tensile
strength.
This does not consider the differences in coefficient of friction, the
gap between ultimate and yield strengths or a number of other things.
Nor the suitability of Titanium for use in all things. Strength isn't
everything!
In any case, to say that "Titanium" is not as good as this or that, you
really ought to be a bit more specific. . . Pure Titanium is rather
useless for any mechanical items, but any number of it's alloys are
excellent!
And the same goes for rather pure Carbon or stainless steels of any
kind. Including many/most Aluminum's as well.
Alloying is all, when it comes to enhanced properties!
keith whaley <== gunsmith/M.E./owner, WHALEY's, Los Angeles
Jeffrey A. Del Col
In a previous article, mcwi...@benchmade.com (Mark McWillis) says:
#Michael Zimmet wrote:
##
## Seeing as how we're talking titanium, would anyone care to comment on
## the advantages/disadvantages of a titanium gun? Say, a titanium
## 1911A1, or a titanium .44 magnum revolver? (I assume one of the big
## disadvantages would be that the gun would cost as much as a BMW
## sedan.)
##
## Now, I'm not talking about titanium plating, or small titanium parts
## (firing pin, and the like).
##
## Should I expect to see a $5,000, titanium Colt Anaconda anytime soon?
## Is titanium rust-proof? I know it's hard as anything, but is it the
## right kind of hardness and strength for a gun? (As you can tell,
## metalurgy isn't my area of expertise.)
#
#--
#There have been attempts at this over the years. I believe that Ruger is
#messing around with it now. The trick, if you want to call it that, is
#to cast, or forge, the Ti as close to net shape as possible. This cuts
#down on machining. This is also how Ruger makes nearly everything.
#
#For some perspective Nesika Bay makes a Benchrest action in your choice
#of 17-4 Stainless or titanium. 17-4 is about $1300.00 Ti is about
#$4500.00, last time I checked.
#
#Mark McWillis
The price differential is quite appropriate.
Working with titanium is a nightmare. It is very difficult to machine
and has a weird tendency to "creep" back to its original shape if it isn't
very painstakingly heat treated past a critical temperature in a carefully
controlled inert atmosphere. It also reacts badly to contaminants in
cooling water used during shaping operations. Lockheed had to use
de-ionized water to make parts for the SR-71 after they discovered that
the chlorine in the tap water was causing problems.
On the other hand, once made into a finished product, it is very strong,
light, and able to withstand tremendous heat ( the Blackbird
gets red-hot in places at Mach 3, but the heat doesn't phase the titanium
at all.)
An all titanium .44 mag would be a marvel of gunsmithing, fantastically
expensive, very light, and very tough, but it would probably kick
like a howitzer.
J. Del Col
--
Jeff Del Col * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics.
A-B College * Be there."
Philippi, WV *
* ----Charles Simic----
Frank Crean
In a previous article, ra...@ih4ssd.ih.lucent.com wrote:
Interesting stuff deleted to conserve bandwidth
->The only other anti-bullet material law now on the books thanks to KKKlinton
->is one preventing bullet jackets from being too much a percentage of the
->total mass of the bullet (25%??); apparently the KKKlinton regime was afraid
->it's Nazi goons would taken out by heavily jacketed Swedish 9mm Para rounds.
->
->That doesn't mean there aren't other very hard heavy materials that would
->be legal under the current Federal statutes aren't feasible to construct; a
->molybdenum bullet with a jacket is certainly legal and could be constructed
->with some difficulty (it's VERY hard)...
-
Or how about getting pre-formed half-jackets and filling with Osmium? Either as
granules or powder(sintered?), the total weight would be more than lead or
depleted uranium. Think of it, a 160-grain .32 S&W Long slug. :)