Black powder - patch or lube or both?
Sheldon
Some suggest using a patch/wad over the powder followed by the ball. Others
suggest the ball should sit directly on the powder and then you should cover
the ball with lube, Crisco, whatever. Others suggest using both, further
increasing the odds of not having chain fire.
What do you guys think?
--------------------------------------------------------------
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revolver. I've also used it with a dollop of Crisco over the ball. I've
also used Thompson's Bore Butter in the same manner as the Crisco. The
felt wad is much cleaner on my hands, but can get expensive. The Crisco
or Bore Butter are messy, but makes it easier to clean the powder
residue after the shooting session is over. Pick one and try it I guess?
By the way, to also help eliminate chain fire, use a ball diameter of
just the right size that a tiny bit of the outside diameter shaves off
when you press the ball into the chamber. This makes a nice tight seal.
Bill Marrs
"Sheldon" <she...@sopris.net> wrote in message
news:h2q462$1jt$1...@news.albasani.net...
# I've been reading conflicting instructions on how to load a bp
# revolver.
# Some suggest using a patch/wad over the powder followed by the ball.
# Others
# suggest the ball should sit directly on the powder and then you
# should cover
# the ball with lube, Crisco, whatever. Others suggest using both,
# further
# increasing the odds of not having chain fire.
#
# What do you guys think?
All the mentioned methods work, and I have used them all at various
times. Using wads
reduces the powder charge a bit, and is a bit of a pain in the butt,
especially if you have
fat fingers and are shooting a .36. Try different methods and see
what works for you.
The grease (crisco or whatever) does more than just seal the chamber
mouth, it also
helps keep the fouling soft. The chances of a chain fire with a
properly seated roundball
and no grease or wad is still practically zero--I suspect that more
chainfires are caused
by poorly fitting caps.
jmart...@aol.com
> ...
I do both, and have never had a chain fire. The grease is a PITA to
clean up, though.
Given that loading always takes a circle of lead off the ball, I
wonder what the chances of a chain fire would be without either wad or
grease.
John Martin
Frank
> ...
I seat the ball right on the powder and top with Crisco. Balls are
supposed to seat tight and you shear off a ring of lead when you seat
them. The Crisco is extra insurance that you don't have a chain
fire. The Crisco also keeps the fouling lose although it makes the
shooting a little more messy.
Sheldon
"Mike Corey" <AWR7...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:h2r6tl$iru$1...@news.albasani.net...
# I've used those pre lubed felt "wads" over the ball on my black powder
# revolver. I've also used it with a dollop of Crisco over the ball. I've
# also used Thompson's Bore Butter in the same manner as the Crisco. The
# felt wad is much cleaner on my hands, but can get expensive. The Crisco
# or Bore Butter are messy, but makes it easier to clean the powder
# residue after the shooting session is over. Pick one and try it I guess?
#
# By the way, to also help eliminate chain fire, use a ball diameter of
# just the right size that a tiny bit of the outside diameter shaves off
# when you press the ball into the chamber. This makes a nice tight seal.
#
I've read that, too. If the ball doesn't shave a bit off it's too small.
Thanks for the reminder.
Sheldon
I have read that most chain fires are caused by ill fitting caps, so I'm
watching that, too.
Sheldon
<jmart...@aol.com> wrote in message news:h2r6tv$is8$1...@news.albasani.net...
# On Jul 5, 7:52 am, "Sheldon" <shel...@sopris.net> wrote:
# > ...
#
# I do both, and have never had a chain fire. The grease is a PITA to
# clean up, though.
#
# Given that loading always takes a circle of lead off the ball, I
# wonder what the chances of a chain fire would be without either wad or
# grease.
#
# John Martin
#
Good point. Maybe people just need the right size balls ( :-) ) and forget
the rest.
Sheldon
"Frank" <frank....@dol.net> wrote in message
news:h2r702$itd$1...@news.albasani.net...
# On Jul 5, 7:52 am, "Sheldon" <shel...@sopris.net> wrote:
# > ...
#
# I seat the ball right on the powder and top with Crisco. Balls are
# supposed to seat tight and you shear off a ring of lead when you seat
# them. The Crisco is extra insurance that you don't have a chain
# fire. The Crisco also keeps the fouling lose although it makes the
# shooting a little more messy.
#
While many people swear by Crisco, some say to save it for your biscuits.
:-)
Roy
fouling down better than Crisco. I tried the felt wads for a time, but my Ruger OA likes a full
charge of powder...and so do I. Good fitting caps and a slightly oversize ball will greatly reduce
your chances of a chain fire.
I witnessed one back in the early 70's. One of my college housemates had been having problems with
loose caps, and had 3-4 chambers fire. Scared the crap out of both of us, him more so than me, of
course. I've been a big believer in proper sized caps ever since, or at least pinch them before
putting them on so they stay tight.
Regards,
Roy
Gunny2009
#
# "Frank" <frank....@dol.net> wrote in message
# news:h2r702$itd$1...@news.albasani.net...
# # On Jul 5, 7:52 am, "Sheldon" <shel...@sopris.net> wrote:
# # > ...
# #
# # I seat the ball right on the powder and top with Crisco. Balls are
# # them. The Crisco is extra insurance that you don't have a chain
# # fire. The Crisco also keeps the fouling lose although it makes the
# # shooting a little more messy.
# #
# While many people swear by Crisco, some say to save it for your biscuits.
I agree. Save it for the biscuits. On a hot summer day here in Nevada,
Crisco melts too easily. The air is already pretty darned hot and the gun
is hot already from the sun beating down on it and getting hotter with each
shot. Everyone seems to have a personal preference. I use a can of really
thick axle grease (and no felt wad). A popsicle stick works well if you
have fat fingers. One can lasts a LONG time and definitely won't be
melting at the lower temperatures that affect Crisco. Ask around at the
range. You'll find some guys even mix up their own formula of different
greasy components. That's one of the fun aspects of BP shooting, trial and
error and finding what works good for you. And if you can find a mix that
generates even more smoke than the others, all the better. LOL Good
luck.
Ralph Mowery
# On Jul 5, 7:52 am, "Sheldon" <shel...@sopris.net> wrote:
# > ...
#
# I seat the ball right on the powder and top with Crisco. Balls are
# supposed to seat tight and you shear off a ring of lead when you seat
# them. The Crisco is extra insurance that you don't have a chain
# fire. The Crisco also keeps the fouling lose although it makes the
# shooting a little more messy.
#
#
Here is one way to make the grease. The information you need is near the
end. I have not tried it as I do not have a BP handgun.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By Ed Harris (Revised 3�2�94)
The smoke generated by lead bullet handgun rounds on indoor ranges is as
much a function of the volume of lubricant, as thetype. The first thing
most people do for indoor gallery loads is try to use the least amount
possible, of the most effective lube, so you wouldn't require much.
Col. E.H. Harrison noted years ago that in making accurate .38 Spl.
wadcutter ammunition with the H&G No.50 bullet, that it was only necessary
to lube the bottom cannelure when using Alox Beeswax, and 2.7 grs. of
Bulleye. However, if minimum smoke is important, you may want to avoid
Alox altogether, since the additives in complex hydrocarbon fractions
produce more smoke in combustion.
The effectiveness of most bullet lubricants is determined by their ability
to flow under pressure and to coat the bore surface. This prevents the
adhesion of lead particles washed away from the bullet surface by the hot
powder gases, and also causes a wetting of powder fouling and primer
residues, so that fouling tends to remain constant as the bore is swept by
succeeding shots. To effectively coat the bore of a long barrel effectively
may require a larger volume of lubricant, depending on the specific alloy,
chamber pressure, powder type and caliber.
Some pistol powders tend to produce less smoke, so it is worthwhile to
experiment here. The best powders in my experience for light indoor
gallery loads in the .38 Special and .45 ACP,with minimum smoke are Green
Dot, Red Dot, 700�X, PB and W231,rather than the "traditional" Unique or
Bullseye.
If you want to make your own non�Alox lubricant, using readily available
materials, start with equal parts of beeswax, paraffin and petrolatum, or
petroleum jelly. A heavy petrolatum like Cosmolene is preferred, but
ordinary drugstore Vaseline works quite well, though will provide a less
stiff mixture. These materials should be melted in a double boiler taking
precautions against fire. To improve lubrication, a tablespoon per
quarter pound of straight nondetergent motor oil of SAE40 or heavier may be
added (I used 90 weight gear oil), or the same amount of RCBS Case Lube II
may be added. RCBS Case Lube II has some interestingproperties in that it
mixes readily with, and will dissolve other lubricants. I recommend its
use as an additive.
Paraffin has a coarse grain structure which impairs its flow, soit must be
used with a plasticiser, and the Vaseline serves this purpose. If using
equal parts results in too soft a lubricant inhot weather, cut the Vaseline
in half, but I would not use less than 6 ozs. of Vaseline to a pound of
paraffin. The function of If you don't have beeswax, you may substitute
anhydrous lanolinfrom the drug store. If you do this, you will not need to
add motor oil to improve the lubricity, for it will be slippery enough!
The standard U.S. Army bullet lubricant during the black powder era was 1
part mutton tallow to three parts of beeswax. This soft lubricant is well
suited for blackpowder arms and cap and ball revolvers, but it gets runny
in hot weather. If used in guns which will not be immediately water
cleaned, there is always risk of bore rusting from residual salts in the
tallow. This is more of as problem with smokeless loads in black powder
single shot rifles than with when using black powder loads which will
prompt thorough cleaning anyway.
I mix my black powder grease by substituting Crisco for the tallow, and
instead of beeswax I substitute the same proportion of a blend made from
equal parts of paraffin, Vaseline andanhydrous lanolin. This works quite
well in black powder muzzleloaders as well as in black powder cartridge
rifles and as a grease for cap & ball revolvers. Another black powder lube
favored by North-South Skirmish shooters is made from 1 part beeswax, 2
parts Crisco, 1/2 part paraffin and 1/4 part Vaseline.
I don't recommend using any solid additives, such as graphite or molybdenum
disulphide, because they increase smoke and do nothing to improve
effectiveness. Our bullet lubes work by the principle of boundary layer
lubrication and the coating action is not enhanced by the adding of
particuates. It would in fact be impaired by doing so.
To arrive at an exact mixture which works best for your climate may require
a little experimentation. If you find an especially"good" mix, I sure
would appreciate it if you would post it hereso we couild all learn from
your experiences. Good luck and safe shooting.
nord...@yahoo.com
# when you press the ball into the chamber. This makes a nice tight seal.
Another approach is offered by Track of the Wolf for those playing
with the 44 cap and ball guns:
"Most loading manuals recommend the .451" round ball, which works, but
we strongly recommend the .454" round ball, which gives better
compression and best accuracy. To load the .454" ball, without
shearing lead, your cylinder mouth must be very slightly chamfered. If
you revolver shears lead during loading, polish the cylinder mouth
with a marble and fine emery paper, until the ball is entirely
compressed into the cylinder, during loading."
RBnDFW
I have seen several messages in other fora to the effect that one must
NEVER use petroleum greases with blackpowder, only animal or vegetable
grease. I always thought it was silly, but I wonder what reasoning was
behind that, if any.
Gunny_2009
"RBnDFW" <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h2tite$q9v$1...@news.albasani.net...
#
# I have seen several messages in other fora to the effect that one must
# NEVER use petroleum greases with blackpowder, only animal or vegetable
# grease. I always thought it was silly, but I wonder what reasoning was
# behind that, if any.
#
Haven't heard that one. They're all flammable so that can't be it. I
simply like the higher melting point. Crisco used to get way too soft and
runny on hot days. I switched to axle grease 20 years ago and have never
had any bad results. Use the popsicle stick to put a dab over each ball,
also to clean off the extra and you don't even get your fingers very messy.
Gunny_2009
Glad to see another afficionado of automotive grease. I've used it for
years with great success.
Dave Griffith
# I have seen several messages in other fora to the effect that one must
# NEVER use petroleum greases with blackpowder, only animal or vegetable
# grease. I always thought it was silly, but I wonder what reasoning was
# behind that, if any.
What about beeswax? It's about the right consistency to rub off a blob
into the chamber.
--
David Griffith
dgr...@cs.csbuak.edu <-- Switch the 'b' and 'u'
Sheldon
BP shooting is starting to sound like a high school science project.
Sheldon
"Gunny_2009" <patmag...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h2u0bc$dqv$1...@news.albasani.net...
#
#
# Glad to see another afficionado of automotive grease. I've used it for
# years with great success.
#
#
It seems like shooting with wads only will not lube the barrel properly,
although some of my reading says wonder wads will do a pretty good job of
lubing without a lot of the mess.
Ray
just fine.
Ray
Roy
#
#I have seen several messages in other fora to the effect that one must
#NEVER use petroleum greases with blackpowder, only animal or vegetable
#grease. I always thought it was silly, but I wonder what reasoning was
#behind that, if any.
#
This is based on the "season the bore" theory as a method of reducing fouling buildup in a rifle. I
must admit I am a firm believer in this theory when it comes to black powder rifles, regardless of
another post I have on this thread extolling the virtues of white grease in pistols. I have no idea
if this works with Pyrodex or any of the other replica powders.
The best I recall it being explained is that you treat the bore of your muzzleloader as you would
your best cast iron skillet. Get it perfectly clean then season it by filling in all the
microscopic pores with a good grease. When I started shooting muzzleloaders back in the 70's I
listened to the advertizing hype and used various cleaning concoctions, RemOil, etc to clean and oil
my rifle. At the range, I had to clean every few shots to be able to seat the next patched ball,
and there was always a ring of heavy fouling about an inch above the breech plug.
About that time I stumbled across a group of buckskinners, one of whom introduced me to a rag called
the Buckskin Report, a magazine that had a NO BULL attitude I have yet to see in any other firearms
publication, before or since. Anyway, they had a great review of a product called Young Country
Arms Lube 103, that claimed you could shoot 103 shots in a row without cleaning if you used their
product and followed their instructions.
Well, you know what? It worked. It really and truly worked. I never tried to shoot 103 rounds in
a row without cleaning, but I do know I can shoot a couple dozen with no difficulty loading round
number 25. I don't know why it works so much better when you use an all natural lube instead of one
derived from crude oil, but there is a difference.
The trick is to thoroughly clean the bore of all petroleum based products. Use detergent, acetone,
paint thinner, whatever to completely remove the stuff, then load it up with the proper lubricant.
Put it in the sun to get hot and let the grease melt in. Swab it, sleep with it, whatever it takes
to fill all the pores with lube. Then go to the range and make sure the patches are sloppy with
lube on the powder side of the patch, and start shooting. If you have to clean at the range, use
nothing stronger than spit as a solvent. At the end of the day, use hot water or spit to do your
cleaning. Use the patch lube to grease and preserve the barrel: no gun cleaning solvents, no gun
oil, no gun grease. After one or two trips to the range, you'll realize that you're not cleaning at
the range any more. Your bore is now seasoned, and all you have to do is use the proper lube, never
any petroleum contaminants, and clean with nothing stronger than hot water or spit.
You'll be surprised just how little effort is required in cleaning. In camp I typically use 3-5 wet
patches, 2-3 dry patches, and 1 grease patch and I am done with the bore. Removable barrels get
plunked into a bucket of hot water when cleaned at home. I dry the barrel with compressed air then
grease with patch lube and I am done. Wipe down the outside of the barrel and the lock with the
same greased patch.
You can't buy Young Country Arms anymore, although I still have a small stash I break out for
special occasions. YCA claimed to be all natural components, and that you could spread it on your
bread if you wanted to. I don't recommend it as it didn't really taste that good. Wonder Lube is
pretty good lube, but it is softer and messier though than YCA, to the extent I usually have a rag
in my belt when at the range. There are others out there such as Gene's Lube. Use what you like as
long as it didn't come from crude oil. I've started fiddling with mixtures of lard/tallow and
beeswax, but am not satisfied with the results yet. I have not gotten the transition between too
stiff and too soft right as the temperature changes. May need a touch of vegetable oil.
Once you get the bore seasoned, the easiest way to get the proper amount of grease for range
shooting is to cut your patches to the proper size until you have about half a tea cup full. I cut
mine in an octagon shape since I don't have a punch. Put a big dollop of Wonder Lube or your own
concoction into the cup, and microwave on about half power until it all melts. There shouldn't be a
lot of excess grease on the patches, just a good level of saturation. If I'm shooting from the
pouch, I just lube up a strip of patching before the match or spit patch and cut the patching at the
muzzle.
Anyway, that's how my stick floats, and I think if you try this you will like it. Then again, I
also think that in-lines are an Abomination before the Lord, and I'm still not sure that those new
fangled percussion type guns are really going to work out. After all, with a flintlock, all you
need to do is pick up a rock and mount it for another shot, right?
Regards,
Roy
Roy
#
#
#Glad to see another afficionado of automotive grease. I've used it for
#years with great success.
#
#
Only with wheel guns. I also clean my OA with large squirts of WD-40 after removing the grips. Let
it drain for an hour or so, wipe it down and put it away. It works in this case, but I'd never
treat one of my rifles or pistols like this. They all get natural lube and spit for shooting and
cleaning, but that's covered in another note.
Regards,
Roy
Gunny_2009
#
# BP shooting is starting to sound like a high school science project.
#
Kinda. I admit to smoking up the school lab on more than one occasion.
But, still had fun doing it. Just like BP. LOL
John Husvar
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch5/msg00973.html
I wonder how accurate the report is.
<Hugesnip>
WHITE BUDDHA
shoot with any cartridge gun at 50 yards. I played around with
different patches and wads- "Wonder Wads" are THE best IMHO.
Sheldon
"Ray" <ral...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:h2vvne$4gv$1...@news.albasani.net...
#I use the Pyrodex pellet, then a patch and then the ball. No grease. Works
# just fine.
#
# Ray
#
Are you using the pellets with a bp revolver?
Roy
#Did a google on "Young Country Arms 103" (with quotes) and got one hit:
#
#http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch5/msg00973.html
#
#I wonder how accurate the report is.
#
#<Hugesnip>
#
#
That's a lot of info. I went out to the shop and dug out my remaining stash of YCA. It is pretty
soft, doesn't seem discolored, still tastes nasty and has to be 20 years old at least.
Anybody out there with a GC-MS that wants do an analysis on it? That would sure settle the issue
tor once and for all. I have some Wonderlube and my own concoction that could be analyzed side by
side.
Gunny_2009
#
# "Ray" <ral...@verizon.net> wrote in message
# news:h2vvne$4gv$1...@news.albasani.net...
# #I use the Pyrodex pellet, then a patch and then the ball. No grease.
Works
# # just fine.
# #
# # Ray
# #
#
# Are you using the pellets with a bp revolver?
Personally, I prefer loose powder, but many in my club do use the pellets
and like them just as much as I like the loose powder.
John Husvar
There've been lots of products that have ended up being used for things
completely unrelated to their original intended use. If it's really just
Chap-Stick, maybe one of the flavored versions would taste better?
And what the heck are you doing eating bullet lube anyway? :)
Sheldon
"WHITE BUDDHA" <emailje...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h325qd$us2$1...@news.albasani.net...
#I use "wonder wads" instead of patches in my Ruger Old Army and can
# shoot with any cartridge gun at 50 yards. I played around with
# different patches and wads- "Wonder Wads" are THE best IMHO.
#
#
I finally made it to the range and used both wads and grease and grease
only. After some more reading I probably didn't need the grease, as I
couldn't really get it down on the ball (now you tell me about Popsicle
sticks). Next time I'll screw up the courage to shoot with only the Wonder
Wads. I guess a Q-Tip would work also, to get the grease on the ball.
I have to admit it was a lot of fun. I used the minimum load in the manual,
which is about 12, and then tried the maximum at 17. Cabellas book says
that 35 is the max for a brass gun, and there was very little smoke and
recoil with my loads, so I might step it up a bit. However, even the 17
load was pretty accurate once I adjusted for the gun shooting high. If I
use the very top of the front sight I can bring it down to almost perfect.
I shot at some targets about 100 yards downrange and there was no noticeable
drop, so I assume the ball is coming out of there pretty quick.
Cleanup was pretty fast in the sink with soap and water. I don't lube
anything afterward, just let it dry. I was told any lube will only attract
more fouling, and after about 25 shots I could feel the cylinder fouling up
a bit on the pin. A lot of books say to lube the pin, but I decided to
leave it dry (mistake?). After cleanup all was good again.
Anyway, no misfires at all and no chain fires. I even felt comfortable
enough to take my shooting gloves off.
Thanks for all the advice. Anymore relating to my experience would be
welcome.
I can't see doing this all the time, but it's definitely a nice change of
pace. Everybody at the range was mesmerized by the gun.