Sweeets 7.62 WILL pit your barrel!!
Peter Hauer
I own about ten rifles and most of them fairly often.
All of them, except for one, get cleaned with Break Free
CLP. Only one of them has been cleaned with Sweet's
7.62 Copper solvent. NOTE: This rifle is the ONLY
ONE that now has a PITTED bore.
I never soaked the bore with Sweet's. I just ran a few wet patches
through after shooting. Apparently that was enough to do some
damage. Note: the pitting is not deep, and has not yet affected
accuracy that I can tell. However, I gave the rest of my Sweet's 7.62 to my
wife for use as an amonia cleanser in the kitchen.
vty Pete (nra/goa)
Bbemory
Ammonia will not damage nor pit steel. Period. See an earliwe post of mine re
soaking a mauser bbl in ammonia for 3 weeks.
Ex Corrosion engineer
Blair
JOIN THE NRA, IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE
moonie
In article <6ij7si$n...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, cons...@earthlink.net says...
#
#I own about ten rifles and most of them fairly often.
#All of them, except for one, get cleaned with Break Free
#CLP. Only one of them has been cleaned with Sweet's
#7.62 Copper solvent. NOTE: This rifle is the ONLY
#ONE that now has a PITTED bore.
#
#I never soaked the bore with Sweet's. I just ran a few wet patches
#through after shooting. Apparently that was enough to do some
#damage. Note: the pitting is not deep, and has not yet affected
#accuracy that I can tell. However, I gave the rest of my Sweet's 7.62 to my
#wife for use as an amonia cleanser in the kitchen.
#
#vty Pete (nra/goa)
#
#
#
I use Sweets as the label says and only use it to remove guilding metal
fouling. Try using the label directions they are printed on the label for a
reason. Im not trying to be nasty, but this is not a general purpose bore
cleaner, its very aggressive on copper fouling.
Bartbob
As thousands of shooters have used Sweets to clean their bores without pitting,
you may be doing something different.
Leaving Sweets in your bore more than 10 minutes may cause pitting. And you
must completely dry the bore by using clean swabs after using Sweets.
MarkypieP
Any ammonia-based cleaner will strip all of the copper fouling out of your
barrel as well as any lubricants/preservatives. The problem is not with Sweet's
solvent, it is probably with the fact that you did not oil the bore after you
cleaned it chemically. Sorry if I offended you, but those are the facts as I
understand them.
E.G. Clayton
On 3 May 1998, Peter Hauer wrote:
# I never soaked the bore with Sweet's. I just ran a few wet patches
# through after shooting. Apparently that was enough to do some
# damage. Note: the pitting is not deep, and has not yet affected
# accuracy that I can tell. However, I gave the rest of my Sweet's 7.62 to my
# wife for use as an amonia cleanser in the kitchen.
As it says on the Sweets bottle, you need to run a patch with some oil on
it through the bore after finishing with Sweets. This neutralizes the
Sweets and prevents the damage you had.
But I'm with you, I don't like using anything that caustic on my rifle bores.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Clayton
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Oregunner
#<HTML><PRE>Subject: Sweeets 7.62 WILL pit your barrel!!
#From: "Peter Hauer" <cons...@earthlink.net>
#Date: Sun, May 3, 1998 22:07 EDT
#Message-id: <6ij7si$n...@xring.cs.umd.edu>
#
#I own about ten rifles and most of them fairly often.
#All of them, except for one, get cleaned with Break Free
#CLP. Only one of them has been cleaned with Sweet's
#7.62 Copper solvent. NOTE: This rifle is the ONLY
#ONE that now has a PITTED bore.
#
#through after shooting. Apparently that was enough to do some
#damage. Note: the pitting is not deep, and has not yet affected
#accuracy that I can tell. However, I gave the rest of my Sweet's 7.62 to my
#wife for use as an amonia cleanser in the kitchen.
#
#vty Pete (nra/goa)
Pete, sorry to hear of your bad experience, but to blame Sweets may be too
easy. I use Sweets on all of my rifles and some of my magnum revolvers, and
have been doing so for quite some time; enough time that I'm even used to the
smell! I have absolutely zero pitting in my bores. What I do have are bores
free of jacket fouling. Perhaps there is another explaination for your
predicament. I'm not a chemist, but I don't believe there's anything in Sweets
which could eat steel. I hope you find your answer.
Steve
Brian
Peter Hauer wrote:
# I own about ten rifles and most of them fairly often.
# All of them, except for one, get cleaned with Break Free
# CLP. Only one of them has been cleaned with Sweet's
# 7.62 Copper solvent. NOTE: This rifle is the ONLY
# ONE that now has a PITTED bore.
#
# I never soaked the bore with Sweet's. I just ran a few wet patches
# through after shooting. Apparently that was enough to do some
# damage. Note: the pitting is not deep, and has not yet affected
# accuracy that I can tell. However, I gave the rest of my Sweet's 7.62 to my
# wife for use as an amonia cleanser in the kitchen.
#
You should have sent it to me.
Kosta
I've used Sweets without problem for several years in my M1 (GI barrel)
and do not see any indication of pitting.
My method has been to clean the powder fouling with Hoppe's #9, patches,
and brass brush - when the powder/carbon fouling has been removed I
use the Sweets to remove copper fouling - run a wet patch thru the
barrel and let it set about 10 minutes, then run a dry patch thru the
barrel. I usually do a few repetitions of Sweets and then the patches
show only faint traces of blue from the copper being removed.
After the Sweets I ALWAYS use a patch wet with Hoppe's #9, and then
dry patches.
I would not leave a barrel wet with Sweets (or other strong cleaners
that contain ammonia) for more than 10-20 minutes.
Plain Hoppe's #9 will also removed copper fouling, but it takes much
longer than with Sweets.
Jay Kosta
----------------------------------------------
# vty Pete (nra/goa)
#
#
#
#
#
Warren Potter
Sorry Pete, but your experience doesn't mean much to thousands of Aussies
who have used Sweets for decades with no such problems. If anything Sweets
was the only solvent you have used that has removed enough fouling to SEE
the pitting.
Anybody else had problems? One bad batch of Bisleys got through a few years
ago, rusting out a few barrels out here. All I'm saying is IF Sweets has
caused problems it is VERY unusual.
Warren Potter/Australia
Peter Hauer <cons...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<6ij7si$n...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
N5ODJ
Howdy,
Maybe your barrel was already pitted and the ammonia removed the copper,
which was hiding the pitting. Hey, it could happen......
Robert Lewis
Lockhart, TX
Join the NRA
Bbemory
I thought everyone knew to oil their gun after cleaning and not leave a copper
solution in the bore, especially in a damp climate. Copper is anodic to steel
and sets up a galvanic cell which can cause concentration cell corrosion.
Copper greatly accelerates steel corrosion. Ammonia (high pH) inhibits
corrosion. Cupro-ammonia salts may be hydroscopic and promote corrosion, but
this is the fault of the operator, not the product.
K9BNF
In article <6ij7si$n...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "Peter Hauer"
<cons...@earthlink.net> writes:
#
#I never soaked the bore with Sweet's. I just ran a few wet patches
#through after shooting. Apparently that was enough to do some
#damage. Note: the pitting is not deep, and has not yet affected
#accuracy that I can tell. However, I gave the rest of my Sweet's 7.62 to my
#wife for use as an amonia cleanser in the kitchen.
#
After a few wet patches, did you clean it out with something else
to nutralize it? I hope you did'nt leave it in there for more than 10
minutes.
John.....K9BNF.....Milwaukee, Wis
Milwaukee Police Officer Retired.
Good Police Work is 95% B.S.
GCA, NRA, WRPA Member
PRhodes
Is it possible that the pits were caused by something else and the
Sweets uncovered them as opposed to caused them?
Paul
Keith Whaley
The other possiblilty is that Sweet's fully cleaned the bore and exposed
pits you never saw before, because they were filled up with junk!
Sweet's cleaned it so thoroughly, now they show up?
Could be. . .
keith whaley
Eric Williams
In a previous post, Peter Hauer (cons...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: I own about ten rifles and most of them fairly often.
: All of them, except for one, get cleaned with Break Free
: CLP. Only one of them has been cleaned with Sweet's
: 7.62 Copper solvent. NOTE: This rifle is the ONLY
: ONE that now has a PITTED bore.
: I never soaked the bore with Sweet's. I just ran a few wet patches
: through after shooting. Apparently that was enough to do some
: damage. Note: the pitting is not deep, and has not yet affected
: accuracy that I can tell. However, I gave the rest of my Sweet's 7.62 to my
: wife for use as an amonia cleanser in the kitchen.
Did you use any other solvent in the same barrel? I've been told that
Sweet's combined with some solvents like Shooter's Choice can form a
combination that is corrosive.
--
Ask not what your country can make other people do for you.
jwi...@llnl.gov
In article <6imvug$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>#1/1,
mark...@aol.com (MarkypieP) wrote:
#
# Any ammonia-based cleaner will strip all of the copper fouling out of your
# barrel as well as any lubricants/preservatives. The problem is not with Sweet's
# solvent, it is probably with the fact that you did not oil the bore after you
# cleaned it chemically. Sorry if I offended you, but those are the facts as I
# understand them.
#
Ammonia forms a chemical complex with copper. That means it attacks metallic
copper vigorously and drives it into solution if the solution is a high pH
(you cannot have free available ammonia in a low pH solution). Ammonia nor
high pH solutions have any appreciable effect on iron (that means any steel
alloy). However Sweets, and any ammonia containing cleaner, use water as the
solvent. Ammonia is not soluable in oil. If you leave the Sweets behind, the
ammonia evaporates and eventually you are left with a bore wet with water.
That is what will pit the bore over time. Water containing ammonia will not
hurt any bore over a short period of time. The way to use any ammonia based
cleaner is to swab it in, wipe it out after a few minutes, redo until the
copper is gone (this will not take long because ammonia goes after copper
vigorously). When done, swab bore with oil, WD-40, alcohol then oil, or
anything else to assure the water is completely removed.
My procedure is:
1. I mount a nylon (or plastic) bore brush. Do not use a bronze brush! The
ammonia will go after the brush.
2. I wrap a patch around the brush. The purpose of the brush is to hold the
patch only.
3. I dip the brush/patch combination into a bottle of the cheapest ammonia
containing household cleaner. I think it cost me $1.35 for a half gallon.
4. Stroke it back and forth through the bore a few times. Replace patch.
5. Repeat 3 and 4 until all copper is gone. BTW, all the powder residue will
be gone also.
6. Rise brush under faucet.
7. Patch brush and wet with water only. Run through bore.
8. Repeat 6 and 7. This is to remove all soap residue left from the cleaner.
9. Swab bore with "Ed's Red".
10. Repeat 9.
Store the rifle. The bore is spotless, there is not a trace of water and it
is coated with oil. And. . .it is cheap!
Regards,
John Wilder
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Chiz45
After reading the responses to the Sweet's post, just had a question about
Shooter's choice. which is better, and do they work the same way? i have been
using shooters choice for a while, and would switch to sweets if i could find
it. the local shops dont carry the stuff. any comparisons of these two
products would be greatly appreciated. Please reply directly to my account.
Kalani
Fluid
Someone wrote:
#
# Ammonia nor high pH solutions have any appreciable effect on iron...However
# Sweets, and any ammonia containing cleaner, use water as the
# solvent....If you leave the Sweets behind, the ammonia evaporates and
# eventually you are left with a bore wet with water....The way to use any
# ammonia based cleaner is to swab it in, wipe it out after a few minutes,
# redo until the copper is gone...When done, swab bore with oil...
Another factor is that Sweets will sometimes react with some of the
components of other solvents like Shooter's Choice to form a pitting
chemical - this has been documented in Precision Shooting, etc.
Apparently the problem occurs when some Sweets is left in the bore, and
SC is applied and left in the bore to soak. If the Sweets is completely
removed first, and the bore is not stored with SC, the pitting and light
frosting reported does not occur. Many current bore cleaners recommend
NOT to use amonia-based cleaners in conjunction with them.
Jay T
Don Giroux
To all,
If you're looking for the BEST bore cleaner, lubricant, and long-term
preservative, try going to
"www.borecote.com" and take a little time to read what's there. These 2
products will
unquestionably make your gun maintenance much easier, and significantly more
effective. The
Borecote cleans as well, and perhaps better, than any other cleaner on the
market, it lubricates
BETTER than any petroleum-based lubricant, and protects against rust for up
to ONE YEAR.
The other product will add about one additional year of rust protection.
Read the info, THEN
TRY IT, YOU'LL LIKE IT.
P.S. Your gun ends up ABSOLUTELY DRY when you're done.
Don Giroux
PPS. The attached letter may also be enlightening.
DG
[MODERATOR: <snip> See author for binary.]
Rick Booth
Chiz45 wrote:
#
# After reading the responses to the Sweet's post, just had a question about
# Shooter's choice. which is better, and do they work the same way? i have been
# using shooters choice for a while, and would switch to sweets if i could find
# it. the local shops dont carry the stuff. any comparisons of these two
# products would be greatly appreciated. Please reply directly to my account.
#
# Kalani
I missed the original posting. There is some disagreement about using
ammonia based solvents in match grade barrels (see Precision Shooting
magazine) so I am not sure I would use it on a regular basis. That
said, I have used it and nothing beats it for getting out copper
fouling...shooters choice doesn't quite work as well.
take care
Rick
rutledge
Rick Booth wrote:
#
# Chiz45 wrote:
# #
# # After reading the responses to the Sweet's post, just had a question about
# # using shooters choice for a while, and would switch to sweets if i could find
# # it. the local shops dont carry the stuff. any comparisons of these two
# # products would be greatly appreciated. Please reply directly to my account.
# #
# # Kalani
# I missed the original posting. There is some disagreement about using
# ammonia based solvents in match grade barrels (see Precision Shooting
# magazine) so I am not sure I would use it on a regular basis. That
# said, I have used it and nothing beats it for getting out copper
# fouling...shooters choice doesn't quite work as well.
# take care
# Rick
Rick ... right! Not just match grade, but I believe match grade
stainless in particular. As I recall, the ammonia attacks one of the
components of the stainless alloy, leading to cracking of the bore
surface; this is speeded by heat and pressure, and will cause the rifle
to throat out much quicker than it otherwise would. Further, it is not
something that stops when you quit using Sweets. The ammonia bonds with
the metal in deep (on a microscopic scale) cracks. Further, as I
recall, the ammonia in Sweets reacts with other solvents like Shooter's
Choice and Hoppes and their product is quite corrosive and stubborn as
hell ... nigh impossible to remove. I believe some shooters have
resorted to using weak acid solutions to try to remove the ammonia salts
.
All in all, nasty stuff. Much better to avoid Sweets with stainless
barrels.
As I recall, it was developed for cleaning heavy copper out of M1A match
rifles. Every one of those I ever saw had a blued steel barrel, which
is not as succeptible to the corrosion caused by Sweets. Further, being
shot with iron sights, they simply do not require the same level of
accuracy that a benchrest rifle, or possibly even a varmint rifle,
requires ... though saying that will most certainly piss off a few
highpower competitors.
The big problem, then, is using a product for a job it was not intended
to do.
The answer to heavy fouling, in stainless rifles, in my experience, is
not harsh copper solvents, but instead, mildly abrasive compounds
designed for physical removal. Benchrest shooters have been using JB,
USP, and Rem Clean for years with no problems. These mild abrasives
have a very fine grit, so fine that they do not effect dimensional
changes, but if anything, polish the bore yet smoother. It is important
with 'em to use a bore guide, 'cause they COULD bell the muzzle and
affect the throat similarly if a cleaning rod with 'em on it were pushed
hard against those areas.
Personally, I use USP in my stainless rifles that foul badly, then used
patches with Shooters Choice to "hose" it out, and follow with a little
Kroil oil.
Tom
Owen Dare
On 13 May 1998 18:38:19 -0400, rutledge <rutl...@sou.edu> wrote:
<SNIP>
#
#Rick ... right! Not just match grade, but I believe match grade
#stainless in particular. As I recall, the ammonia attacks one of the
#components of the stainless alloy, leading to cracking of the bore
#surface; this is speeded by heat and pressure, and will cause the rifle
#to throat out much quicker than it otherwise would. Further, it is not
#something that stops when you quit using Sweets. The ammonia bonds with
#the metal in deep (on a microscopic scale) cracks. Further, as I
#recall, the ammonia in Sweets reacts with other solvents like Shooter's
#Choice and Hoppes and their product is quite corrosive and stubborn as
#hell ... nigh impossible to remove. I believe some shooters have
#resorted to using weak acid solutions to try to remove the ammonia salts
#.
#
#All in all, nasty stuff. Much better to avoid Sweets with stainless
#barrels.
I haven't read the reports but Sweets is used very heavily here in
Australia both in benchrest and for hunting rifles.
#
#As I recall, it was developed for cleaning heavy copper out of M1A match
#rifles. Every one of those I ever saw had a blued steel barrel, which
#is not as succeptible to the corrosion caused by Sweets. Further, being
#shot with iron sights, they simply do not require the same level of
#accuracy that a benchrest rifle, or possibly even a varmint rifle,
#requires ... though saying that will most certainly piss off a few
#highpower competitors.
Sweets 7.62 was developed in Australia for use in Full Bore competition.
This is competition using military issue ammunition (7.62 x 51) in up to
1000 yd competition withg iron sights. Rifles are typically heavy barreled
bolt actioned single shots. Many a stainless as are many of the benchrest
guns that use Sweets here without any apparent problem.
Most shooters use Sweets to get out the copper and something else top get
out powder fowling.
#
#The big problem, then, is using a product for a job it was not intended
#to do.
#
#The answer to heavy fouling, in stainless rifles, in my experience, is
#not harsh copper solvents, but instead, mildly abrasive compounds
#designed for physical removal. Benchrest shooters have been using JB,
#USP, and Rem Clean for years with no problems. These mild abrasives
#have a very fine grit, so fine that they do not effect dimensional
#changes, but if anything, polish the bore yet smoother. It is important
#with 'em to use a bore guide, 'cause they COULD bell the muzzle and
#affect the throat similarly if a cleaning rod with 'em on it were pushed
#hard against those areas.
Anything abrasive enough to polish the bore must by definition also be
rounding off lands etc. If you picture an bore as a surface with various
projections and hollows which tear of minute paricles of copper and hold
them in the hollows, in order to get the copper out, you must cut back the
metal to remove the low spot (this is the polishing you refer to). If you
don't remove that copper which lays in the hollows, it will quickly gather
more copper on subsequent shots because similar metals tend to gall quite
severely. So I would suggest that a solvent which actually removed *all*
the copper is a better method. Those cleaning methods that use
electrolosis might be even better (RCBS etc).
I'm not qualified to comment on whether Sweets attacks or bonds to any
particular alloy of Stainless steel... Just thought I'd share the Aussie
experience :)
BTW, my wife would agree with you just so I didn't stink the house up with
the stuff anymore ;-)
#
#Personally, I use USP in my stainless rifles that foul badly, then used
#patches with Shooters Choice to "hose" it out, and follow with a little
#Kroil oil.
#
#Tom
#
cheers,
Owen Dare E-mail: ow...@globec.com.au
River City BBS ow...@rcbbs.ambience.com
Brisbane, ICQ# : 1512158
Australia BBS. (07) 3805 5332
http://www.globec.com.au/~owend/rcbbs/