Mauser, 1891 Argentine
Doug McKay
A friend has an 1891 Argentine Mauser that is in excellent condition,
barrel seems like new, serial number on stock matches bolt and receiver.
Made in Berlin. He's willing to trade for my Russian SKS which I was trying
to sell to him. Here's the bad news. The stock has been shortened to
sporterize the appearance. The barrel is unaffected. The sights are all
the same. The stock where it's shortened looks well done, but it's
definitely not what it was.
And this stock is in very good condition. If the cutting and shaping hadn't
been done this rifle would look excellent. Maybe the stock was refinished,
now that I think about it. Otherwise it'd be apparent it was cut and sanded
and it's not unless you know it's not the right length and shape. Maybe the
gun was reblued. It sure looks good. But the stamping on the receiver is
clear. I'm not experienced enough to be able to tell. He got the rifle from
a friend some years ago and hasn't shot it.
Well, in any case, I'm wondering if these are very rare nowadays - if it's
a good trade (value wise) even with the stock wrong. To be honest I think
it's ugly the way the stock was butchered, and in any case I wouldn't shoot
it. But if the gun without the stock (or a replacement stock) is valuable
in some way maybe I should do the swap.
Any thoughts?
Doug McKay
NRA Life, NRA-ILA, SASS, Old West Society of Minnesota
:Jake Ambrose Hawthorne:
The Second Amendment is the RESET button
of the United States Constitution.
Dennis Kroh
"Doug McKay" <mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
#A friend has an 1891 Argentine Mauser that is in excellent condition,
#barrel seems like new, serial number on stock matches bolt and receiver.
#Made in Berlin. He's willing to trade for my Russian SKS which I was trying
#to sell to him. Here's the bad news. The stock has been shortened to
#sporterize the appearance. The barrel is unaffected. The sights are all
#the same. The stock where it's shortened looks well done, but it's
#definitely not what it was.
#
#And this stock is in very good condition. If the cutting and shaping hadn't
#been done this rifle would look excellent. Maybe the stock was refinished,
#now that I think about it. Otherwise it'd be apparent it was cut and sanded
#and it's not unless you know it's not the right length and shape. Maybe the
#gun was reblued. It sure looks good. But the stamping on the receiver is
#clear. I'm not experienced enough to be able to tell. He got the rifle from
#a friend some years ago and hasn't shot it.
#
#Well, in any case, I'm wondering if these are very rare nowadays - if it's
#a good trade (value wise) even with the stock wrong. To be honest I think
#it's ugly the way the stock was butchered, and in any case I wouldn't shoot
#it. But if the gun without the stock (or a replacement stock) is valuable
#in some way maybe I should do the swap.
#
#Any thoughts?
If the gun still has the Argentine crest on the top of the receiver then
its a good deal. If the crest has been ground off (and most were in the
30's) then pass. BTW, these are very good shooters, and the 7.65x53
cartridge is excellent!
Jwrawles
"Doug McKay" <mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
#A friend has an 1891 Argentine Mauser that is in excellent condition,
#barrel seems like new, serial number on stock matches bolt and
The following is a brief description of the differences between the
various older smokeless era Mauser bolt actions, and some answer to
frequently asked questions.
For full details on Mausers, see the book "Mauser Bolt Rifles" by Ludwig
Olson, or Robert W.D. Ball's newly released book "Mauser Military Rifles
of the World." Here is a decription of smokeless powder era (but still
pre-1899 "antique"/exempt) Mausers, in a nutshell:
Model 1891: Single column magazine (5 rd.) that protrudes below the stock
(like on a Carcano), small ("tab") extractor, small ring diameter barrel,
usually chambered in 7.65 mm Argentine Mauser (also sometimes called 7.65
Belgian Mauser. You may also see it labelled as 7.65x53 or 7.65x54. This
is a relatively hard to find cartridge. None of the major North American
manufacturers load for it. Ballistically, it is a good cartridge (about
like a .300 Savage). Right now, the only maker of soft nose (boxer primed)
7.65 Argentine ammo is Norma. It sells for about $25 a box. There is also
quite a bit of Berdan primed (non-corrosive) original Argentine military
full metal jacket ("ball") available. It is packed in boxes of 15 rounds,
and sells for only about $6 a box.
Model 1893/1894/M1895/M1896. This was the first modern-style Mauser
action. Used by Brazil, Chile, Sweden, Spain, Turkey, and several other
countries. Double column magazine (5 rd.) that does not protrude. It has
a full length extractor that is much larger than that of the M1891. (It is
very similar to the Model1898 extractor).
An aside: This is the same extractor that Winchester just put back on its
Model 70 rifle. (They had this style extractor on their pre-1964 model
70s.) They are touting it a some radical new development called "Positive
Feed". Actually, the guys at Winchester just re-adopted a 102 year old
Mauser design. (Those dweebs!)
The Model 1893 through 1896 were esentially low-pressure actions.
Like the M1891, they are small ring Mauser actions. Most are chambered
in 7 x 57 Mauser or 6.5 x 55 (Swedish) Mauser, which are relatively
low-pressure smokeless cartridges. However, many of these guns (mainly
Turkish contract 1893s and a few Spanish and Chilean Model1895s) were
re-heat treated and arsenal upgraded to 8 x 57 mm Mauser, .308, and even
.30-06. These particular ones are perfectly safe rebarrel and to shoot in
moderate pressure chamberings like: .250 Savage, .300 Savage, 6.5 x 55 mm
(Swedish) Mauser, .35 Remington, and 7x57 mm. Some folks still re-barrel
re-heat treated examples Model 1893/94/95/96s to higher pressure
chamberings like .243, 6mm Remington, .257 Roberts, and .308. I used to
do this as well, but have discontuinued making up these rifles due to
concerns about liability lawsuits. (Even if it was a remote possibility, I
wanted to err on the side of caution.)
Larry Ellis was nice enough to provide the following info on the Chilean
contract Model 1895 Mausers produced by Ludwig Loewe of Berlin and DWM:
Contrary to popular belief, the M1895 "Chilean" did *not* have a third
safety lug like the Model 1898 Mausers. To quote Olson's "Mauser Bolt
Rifles":
"... Another feature of the Chilean Model 95 action was a shoulder on the
receiver a few thousandths of an inch behind the bolt handle. The bolt
handle would engage this shoulder and serve as a safety lug if the
locking lugs would let go." The third locking lug (or in the case of the
Chilean M95, the receiver shoulder) comes into play only *after* there has
been a catastrophic failure of the bolt. They are intended to protect the
shooter from being hit in the face by the bolt after both locking lugs
have been sheared off. This arrangement was not considered an adequate
safety feature and was replaced by the third locking lug on the Model 1898
Mauser. (See description below.)
If you want to build a sporter on the M1893/94/95/96 type action, I
recommend the Model 1893 receivers that were originally made in Oberndorf,
Germany under contract for the Turkish government. These are currently
available at very reasonable prices from Century International. Production
for this contract ended in 1897, so ALL of these receivers are legally
antique. (I'd be happy to send anyone who requests it a hard copy of a
BATF letter that confirms this, and also states that sporterizing or
re-barreling or re-chambering them does not change their exempt status.)
The M1893 Turkish actions are currently the best choice because they are
as I already stated, very inexpensive, and because they were all made
before 1898, and because they were re-heat treated in the 1930s, when they
were arsenal rebarreled from 7.65 mm Belgian Mauser to 8 x 57 Mauser.
This makes them a bit stronger than other pre-1899 Mausers.
Because 1893/94/95/96-series rifle production spanned the the legal
"antique" threshold (Dec. 31, 1898--under the U.S. Gun Control Act of
1968), not all of them are legally antique. Some of them, like the Swedes,
are clearly marked on the receiver bridge with the year of manufacture.
So are many of the Mausers made in Spain. I wish that they all were,
because it would make identifying "antiques" vs. "moderns" a lot easier.
The Model 1898 Mauser was a slight improvement over the M1893-to-1896. It
uses a "large ring" barrel (about .20 inches larger diameter in the thread
diameter), and virtually all M1898s are high pressure actions. Most are
also about .30 inches longer in bolt throw than the M1893/95 series,
making them capable of accepting very long cartridges (like .270 and
.30-06). Combined, this has made the model 1898 a natural for building
sporters for the North American market for many years. This was the most
successful Mauser, with total production of over 100 million rifles. It
also had the largest number of variations.
At one time or another almost all the world powers have produced a copy of
the M98. Countries which have produced significant numbers of M98 Mausers
include Germany, the Czechs, The Yugoslavs, Hungry, Belgium, Austria,
Spain, Argentina, Mexico, China, and the United States. Most of the
visible differences between the M1895 series rifles and the M1898 are in
the bolt. The M98 cocks on opening (unlike the M88 and M93 which cocked on
closing); the gas ports in the bolt were enlarged, the front portion of
the bolt shroud was extended to form a larger gas shield, a locking device
was added to the bolt shroud to prevent the shroud from unscrewing during
firing, a third locking lug (the "safety lug") was added to the bolt, and
the shape of both the firing pin and the interior of the bolt body were
changed to prevent the tip of the firing pin from protruding through the
bolt face unless the bolt was fully closed.
Unfortunately, 99 percent of Model1898s you will find were made AFTER
January 1, 1899. Thus, they don't have the legal (FFL exempt) status
advantages of most of the earlier production Mausers. (Bummer!)
Ballistically, both 7 x 57 and 8 x 57 are good cartridges. The 7mm has
higher velocity, and is a bit flatter shooting. The 8 x 57 slightly lower
velocity, but can accept bullet weights of up to 240 grains! (This makes
it great for mule deer, elk, or moose). Expect 1.5"-to-2" groups at 100
yards from either cartridge in a well-bedded rifle. Some of my 8mms have
dark grooves, so they may group a little wider.
Winchester and Remington both make factory soft nose for both 7 x 57 and 8
x 57. Dealer cost is around $11.80 a box. Full retailis close to $19.00 a
box. It is all boxer primed and reloadable. I've got some available
(mail order) if you can't find any locally.
Military surplus ball for both 7mm and 8 mm Mauser is cheap and plentiful
for both cartridges--just make sure you specify stuff that is
non-corrosively primed. (That is what I sell, and I refuse to sell
anything that is corrosive.) Nearly all of the military surplus Mauser
ammo is Berdan primed and not reloadable without special tools.
There has been a LOT of discussion on the net about Mausers chambered in
6.5 x 55 mm (Swedish). Suffice it to say that it is an excellent deer
class cartridge. It is very flat shooting and extremely accurate.
Remington and federal now load for it, so the cost of ammo has fallen to
about $12.00/box wholesale. (Full retail is $18.75 a box.) There is also
a large quantity of Berdan-primed Swedish military surplus ball ammo on
the market at relatively low prices. I've got Remington soft nose
commercial ammo available (mail order) if you can't find any locally.
About the only drawback of the 6.5 x 55 is that it uses a different rim
diameter from the other Mauser cartridges. This makes reloadable brass
hard to find--at at least for now. With the increasing popularity of this
cartridge in North America, there should be good supplies of once-fired
boxer primed brass available within a couple of years. The stripper clips
for this cartridge are also currently hard to find. They often sell for
$1.50 each or more at gun shows. (I buy them in quantity, so I can sell
them for $1.00) Again, it is the odd rim diameter that causes the
scarcity.
It is difficult to buy a M1896 Swedish Mauser without an FFL.
Unfortunately, full scale production of the Swedish M1896 rifles didn't
begin until 1899. That makes 99%+ of them legally MODERN, and
they have to be sold FFL-to-FFL (4473 "yellow form" paperwork and all that
nonsense...).
The other option is perhaps looking for a Model 1894 Swedish Mauser
carbine. Nearly half of these were made before 1899, and are thus
legally antique. They are handy little dudes, with a 17.7 inch barrel, and
kick just a bit more than the rifles (M1896s) or short rifles (M1938s).
The Swede carbine in my personal collection was made in 1898 at Carl
Gustafs Gevarsfaktori . I previously owned one (in rougher condition)
that was made in 1895 at Oberndorf, Germany.
I really like the Swedish carbines. They are very compact and handy.
Unfortunately, they are scarce enough that they sell for between $275 and
$550, depending on condition, and whether or not they are pre-1899.
S.O. Wendell provided the following answers to FAQs about the brass stock
disks and the aluminum trajectory compensation plates found on many
Swedish Mausers:
The Model 1896 was originally made for the round nose m/1894 6.5x55 mm
bullet. It was replaced by a pointed bullet in 1941. Since the sights
were for the round nose the rectangular aluminum plate was added to show
how thepoint of aim, and the distance markings on the sights, had to be
changed.
"Sikte for trubbkula" means "Sights for round-nose bullets"
"Skjutning med spetskula" means "Shooting with pointed bullets"
"Avstand" means "Distance"
"Sikte/Rp" (Rp is short for Riktpunkt) means "Sights/Point of Aim"
The figures, i e "100-250 300/-3" mean that at an actual distance of
100 to 250 meters you should use the 300 meter scale on the sights,
and aim low (I'd say 3 decimeters, or 1 foot low), since the higher
velocity of the pointed bullet means a flatter trajectory. At an
actual distance of 400 meters you should use the scale for 500 meters
and aim dead-on, and so on.
It seems like the M1896's, with sights for round-nose bullets, were
fitted with the aluminum plate during the war, while the Model 1938
carbines (those made after 1941 at least) had sights made for the pointed
bullets, and had yellow decals (or aluminum plates) on the stock
indicating point of aim for shooting with round-nose bullets.
A round brass disk in the stock tells the exact measurement of the bore.
It has a scale that goes from 6.46 mm up to 6.59 mm. The exact bore
diameter is marked on the disc with a small triangular mark. The state of
the barrel, in three steps, 1, 2 and 3 could also be indicated.
In closing, antique Mausers are fun to shoot, historically interesting,
and incredibly well built. They exhibit true Old World craftsmanship!
They are also a relative bargain--especially compared to Colts or
Winchesters made in the same era. A rifle with comparable fit and finish
if built today would cost well over $1,000. Unlike many other pre-1899
rifles, most M1891 and later Mausers are perfectly safe to shoot, and
chambered in modern, smokeless powder, high velocity cartridges.
Jim Rawles, Proprietor The obligatory quote...
Clearwater Trading Co. "A billion here,
c/o P.O. Box 2289 and a billion there...
Orofino, Idaho 83544 And pretty soon you're talking
voice: (208) 476-4440 REAL money."
e-mail: Jwra...@aol.com - Senator Everett Dirksen
Let me know if you'd like my UPDATED and expanded catalog of
shootable antique guns (primarily pre-1899 production "No FFL"
Mausers and Winchesters), gun accessories (mainly clips and
magazines), ammunition, backpacks, sleeping bags, and waterproof
gun/gear cases. (Due to AOL e-mail length restrictions, you'll get the
catalog in two parts.) You can also now read my new shareware novel,
The Gray Nineties. It is piece of speculative survival fiction about a
socio-economic collapse and its aftermath. Hard copies are *NOT*
available, but you can download a soft copy of the entire text free of
charge from the web site at:
http://www.eskimo.com/~hmcom/4/db/gn/cover.html
Robert Sacher
Charles Nylander <Nyla...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
#"Doug McKay" <mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
##A friend has an 1891 Argentine Mauser that is in excellent condition,
##barrel seems like new, serial number on stock matches bolt and receiver.
##Made in Berlin. He's willing to trade for my Russian SKS which I was trying
##to sell to him. Here's the bad news. The stock has been shortened to
Snip>
#
Another route: Splice in a piece of similar grained wood with the joint
under the lower band, stain to match, and get upper band, etc. from Gun
Parts, Inc.. I did that on a 98 Krag 'economy sporter' that now looks
right, shoots <2 MOA and preserves the original cartouches. The orig.
stock was damaged anyway and said repair won't fake out a future
collector.
Tanker 06
In article <4n4von$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jwra...@aol.com (Jwrawles)
writes:
# 7.65 mm Argentine Mauser (also sometimes called 7.65
# Belgian Mauser. You may also see it labelled as 7.65x53
# or 7.65x54.
# This is a relatively hard to find cartridge. None of the major
# North American manufacturers load for it.
Norma is the only sporting ammo that I've seen marketed for
this caliber, but there have been a **LOT** of FMJ military surplus
ammo just dumped onto the market. Cases of 1K are going for
about $115 or so, and it's `80's ammo.
Jerry
Tank...@aol.com
-
For those who have fought for it, freedom has a taste
that the sheltered will never know.
USA Vet, 1985-1993 Panama/Desert Storm
----
In memory of Lt. Tina Ricca
1966- 1993
My partner, my best friend and more
Tipsy McStagger
In <4ocacr$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> tank...@aol.com (Tanker 06)
writes:
#
#In article <4n4von$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jwra...@aol.com
(Jwrawles)
#writes:
#
## 7.65 mm Argentine Mauser (also sometimes called 7.65
## Belgian Mauser. You may also see it labelled as 7.65x53
## or 7.65x54.
#
## This is a relatively hard to find cartridge. None of the major
## North American manufacturers load for it.
#
# Norma is the only sporting ammo that I've seen marketed for
#this caliber, but there have been a **LOT** of FMJ military surplus
#ammo just dumped onto the market. Cases of 1K are going for
#about $115 or so, and it's `80's ammo.
#
#Jerry
#Tank...@aol.com
If you run across a nice 1909 Argentine, the chamber can be reamed out
to take .30-06 size brass and then you can reload the '06 brass with
311 bullets. I would *not* do this with an 1891 though.
Mortalis
--
*************************************************************
"A new study shows..." and "Yes, but what about the children?"
The two most dangerous phrases in American politics.
E-mail Mort...@ix.netcom.com re: selling or trading classic martial small arms.
*************************************************************
Gale Barrows
mort...@ix.netcom.com (Tipsy McStagger) wrote:
#In <4ocacr$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> tank...@aol.com (Tanker 06)
#writes:
##
##In article <4n4von$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jwra...@aol.com
#(Jwrawles)
##writes:
##
### 7.65 mm Argentine Mauser (also sometimes called 7.65
### Belgian Mauser. You may also see it labelled as 7.65x53
### or 7.65x54.
##
### This is a relatively hard to find cartridge. None of the major
### North American manufacturers load for it.
##
## Norma is the only sporting ammo that I've seen marketed for
##this caliber, but there have been a **LOT** of FMJ military surplus
##ammo just dumped onto the market. Cases of 1K are going for
##about $115 or so, and it's `80's ammo.
##
##Jerry
##Tank...@aol.com
#If you run across a nice 1909 Argentine, the chamber can be reamed out
#to take .30-06 size brass and then you can reload the '06 brass with
#311 bullets. I would *not* do this with an 1891 though.
#Mortalis
The 7.65 ammo is easily formed from .30/06, 7mm Mauser, 8mm Mauser and
many others so why bother with rechambering and handloading the .311
bullets?