LC 72 Ammo: Let's put the rumors to rest!
Ordinary_Guy
Folks, here's the final word:
#Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:03:59 -0500
#Organization: Civilian Marksmanship Program
#
#To whom it may concern:
#
#As per questions on the LC 72 ammo, I can find no authentication
#that the subject ammunition is or was so-called "machine-gun" ammo.
#
#There have always been rumors of so called "ammunition produced only for
#use in machine-guns, submachine-guns, etc." I well recall the rumors of
#certain foreign military 9mm ball produced only for use in
#submachine-guns. I have never been able to authenticate such rumors.
#There was some ammunition made for use in submachine-guns because the
#commercial variety was too mild to operate the rather heavy bolts in the
#blow back operated European submachine-guns, but it was always perfectly
#safe to use in any modern handgun. It seems that there were some truly
#marginal 9mm Parabellum Lugers brought back from WWI and the U. S. Ammo
#companies deliberately loaded their ammunition down to prevent damage to
#the more questionable of the war trophies. In this case the ammunition
#was deliberately underpowered to prevent inadvertent injury or damage to
#any of the suspect pistols.
#
#My point here is that no ammunition company would deliberately load
#ammunition to higher than acceptable pressures. Such ammunition issued
#in combat might be the cause of a weapon malfunctioning at critical
#times, and of course with "Murphy's Law" in full swing it would be
#virtually impossible to guarantee that none of the high powered
#ammunition would find its way into a service rifle.
#
#Most of the rumors of the M1 not being able to handle normal pressures
#were essentially laid to rest in "Hatcher's Book of the Garand" (1947)
#where he debunked the idea that the M1 could (or would) not take the
#pressures of the so called M1 Service Ammunition (essentially the same
#as the later 172/3 grain National Match ammunition). The M1 Rifle was
#specifically designed around the 172-174 grain bullet traveling at
#approximately 2700-2800 fps.
#
#You may rest assured that the U.S. Government would never allow suspect
#lots of ammunition to exist in service, suitable to be utilized only in
#special weapons. Any lot of ammunition that is in the least suspect is
#immediately taken out of service and destroyed. There HAVE been lots of
#ammunition designed to be fired in machine-guns that were to be utilized
#in overhead fire (as in the old infiltration courses). These lots of
#ammo were selected because of their extreme uniformity to preclude the
#possibility of having a stray shot inadvertently strike a trainee.
#
#As far as M1 operating rods, they are subject to the whims of the great
#"Architect of the Universe." I have had operating rods that would last for a
#number of years without bending (or "going dead" as they used to call
#it) and I have also had rods that wouldn't (or didn't) last for two full
#times over the National Match Course. It is my personal opinion that any
#ammunition that is safe to fire in your weapon will not cause your rod
#to be bent or damaged... what the rod does on its own is left to your
#own imagination and the will of Allah.
#
#Best regards,
#
#Dave Willis
#Director of Civilian Marksmanship
Best regards,
Walt
The Ordinary_Guy
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Please see sig for details
On 14 Nov 1997 17:31:29 -0500, wjku...@pipeline.com (Ordinary_Guy) wrote:
~Folks, here's the final word:
~
~#Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:03:59 -0500
~#Organization: Civilian Marksmanship Program
~#
~#To whom it may concern:
~#
~#As per questions on the LC 72 ammo, I can find no authentication
~#that the subject ammunition is or was so-called "machine-gun" ammo.
~#
~#There have always been rumors of so called "ammunition produced only for
~#use in machine-guns, submachine-guns, etc." I well recall the rumors of
~#certain foreign military 9mm ball produced only for use in
~#submachine-guns. I have never been able to authenticate such rumors.
<snip for brevity>
~#Best regards,
~#
~#Dave Willis
~#Director of Civilian Marksmanship
~Best regards,
~
~Walt
Many thanks Walt. A voice of reason as always. I've got an ammo can full of
LC72 that I bought years ago for plinking and practice. Guess it's safe to
load up the clips.
--
Dan - y...@wco.com
I love the smell of Hoppes #9 in the morning.
Follow the Money - Who funds the election of your Congresscritter - www.opensecrets.org
Ken Marsh
Hi,
We have two layers of misinformation going on here! :(
(read on)
Please see sig for details <y...@wco.com> wrote:
#On 14 Nov 1997 17:31:29 -0500, wjku...@pipeline.com (Ordinary_Guy) wrote:
#~#Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:03:59 -0500
#~#Organization: Civilian Marksmanship Program
#~#As per questions on the LC 72 ammo, I can find no authentication
#~#that the subject ammunition is or was so-called "machine-gun" ammo.
#~#
#~#There have always been rumors of so called "ammunition produced only for
#~#use in machine-guns, submachine-guns, etc." I well recall the rumors of
#~#certain foreign military 9mm ball produced only for use in
#~#submachine-guns. I have never been able to authenticate such rumors.
#<snip for brevity>
#~#Dave Willis
#~#Director of Civilian Marksmanship
#~Walt
#
#Many thanks Walt. A voice of reason as always.
Well, the voice of reason is wrong, and in this case, so is Dave
Willis, as the BATF issued a warning about a certain lot of
Hirtenberger 9mm ammo, which was echoed on this newsgroup.
Stop!
Check out:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/text/press/fy97-4.htm
As you can see by the BATF web page, The subgun ammo story IS TRUE.
Contact 1-800-858-2666 / cas...@rosenet.net for details, they were
selling it this time last year, with lots ogf caveats and warnings.
Here is the full text of the NRA-forwarded warning:
NRA-ILA is forwarding this BATF press release in the interest of
warning gun owners about potentially dangerous ammunition.
==========
Department of the Treasury
ATF Office of Public Information
For Immediate Release FY-97-6
Contact: Vickie Saunders Date: November 7, 1996
HAZARDOUS AMMUNITION
Washington--The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
(ATF) has been advised by Hirtenberger AG, Hirtenberg,
Austria, that certain 9Xl9 mm caliber ammunition
produced by Hirtenberger is unsafe for use in any
handgun.
The ammunition, designated L7A1 and produced ln the
years 1990 through 1992, was produced for the British
Ministry of Defense specifically for use in
submachineguns under adverse conditions. The
ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in
excess of that intended for use in handguns.
The manufacturer advises that up to 12 million rounds
of this ammunition has recently been sold on the world
surplus market. The ammunition can be identified by
the following head stamp located on the bottom of the
cartridge case
12 O'clock position: HP
3 O'clock position: 90, 91, or 92
6 O'clock position: L7Al
9 O'clock position: the marking of a cross within
a circle
This ammunition should not be fired.
We are not aware of any of this ammunition being
imported into the United States. ATF will take action
to prevent the commercial importation of this
ammunition.
For additional information, contact, Mary Jo Hughes,
Chief, Firearms and Explosives Imports, (202) 927-8320.
=+=+=+=+
This information is provided as a service of the National Rifle
Association Institute for Legislative Action, Fairfax, VA.
This and other information on the Second Amendment and the NRA is
available at: http://WWW.NRA.Org
(end quote)
I've got an ammo can full of
#LC72 that I bought years ago for plinking and practice. Guess it's safe to
#load up the clips.
Sure, it'll go "bang" and nothing SEEMS wrong...
I'd suggest pulling a few bullets like Jeff Bartlet suggests.
Ken.
--
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Guns R Me2
##There was some ammunition made for use in submachine-guns because the
##commercial variety was too mild to operate the rather heavy bolts in the
##blow back operated European submachine-guns, but it was always perfectly
##safe to use in any modern handgun.
I shoot a subgun and I do have some 9mm+p+ chamber pressure 44,000cup Normal
9mm is 37,500 IT IS NOT TO BE USED IN HANDGUNS! It was manf. for the British
to be used in the Sterling subgun by Hirtenburger of Austria. You can shoot
some out of a handgun and I'll remove the slide from your head. Do you
remember the Beretta 92 slides fracturing?
Mike Gilliam
Claflin Cartridge, Inc. is selling the Hirtenberger 9mm in SGN. They state
that it is for machine gun use only. 1350fps @ 44,000psi
Mike
John W. Engel wrote in message <64qml2$a...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#I don't know about the U.S. LC 72-produced ammo, but there MOST DEFINATELY
#has been recently imported a batch of Hirtenberger 9mm marked for
#the Sterling (L2A1 headstamp) that is WAY too hot for most 9mm handguns.
#Hirtenberger wrote BATF a warning letter about this stuff, which
#was recently published in either Machine Gun News or Small Arms Review.
#This has been documented, and is real. I do not recall the exact pressure
#spec on this stuff, but seem to remember that it is in excess of
#42K psi. This will trash many well-made 9mm pistols.
#Regards,
#whit
#
JBart1948
Dan:
Before you fire any of your LC72 in an M1 Garand, please pull a bullet and
weigh the powder charge. If you have more than 54 grains of ball powder
(WC852), don't shoot it in the M1. The chamber pressures will be OK, but the
port pressures will be excessive and too rough on the op rod. These waivered
lots of WC852 used in most of the LC72 Ball M2 ammo is nothing more than like
IMR4350 or IMR4831 in ball powder form. Handloaders have been cautioned for
decades to never use powders that slow for M1 ammo because of excessive port
pressures.
The ammunition data cards on these lots of LC72 show the ammo as either
'waivered' or 'restricted' - 'for MG use only'. These cards came with the
ammo when it was sent to Red River Arsenal for repack.
Regards - Jeff Bartlett
Ordinary_Guy
kma...@charm.net (Ken Marsh) wrote:
#Hi,
#We have two layers of misinformation going on here! :(
(major snip)
Hi, Ken,
Here's the answer to the Hirtenberger question:
" This sounds to be the ammunition mentioned in a BATF alert I received
some months ago. If so, it is special purpose ammunition loaded for use in
arctic conditions. It is not "submachine gun" ammunition and is dangerous
for use in any firearm. The alert indicated that it was believed none had
been imported, but warned dealers to be aware of its existence and to avoid
selling any if it should show up.
Entirely FWIW...
Kyrie"
So much for smg ammo. Sheesh.
Ordinary_Guy
wh...@cs.utexas.edu (John W. Engel) wrote:
#I don't know about the U.S. LC 72-produced ammo, but there MOST DEFINATELY
#has been recently imported a batch of Hirtenberger 9mm marked for
#the Sterling (L2A1 headstamp) that is WAY too hot for most 9mm handguns.
#Hirtenberger wrote BATF a warning letter about this stuff, which
#was recently published in either Machine Gun News or Small Arms Review.
#This has been documented, and is real. I do not recall the exact pressure
#spec on this stuff, but seem to remember that it is in excess of
#42K psi. This will trash many well-made 9mm pistols.
#Regards,
#whit
Hi, Whit,
I have been informed that this is actually Arctic ammunition intended for
all Paras, including pistols, in subzero weather.
Clay Maugans
JBart1948 wrote:
# The ammunition data cards on these lots of LC72 show the ammo as either
# 'waivered' or 'restricted' - 'for MG use only'. These cards came with the
# ammo when it was sent to Red River Arsenal for repack.
#
# Regards - Jeff Bartlett
Hello Jeff,
Please clarify. Are you saying?:
A: Because of the data cards, this lot was set aside and never put on clips.
or
B: The fools! Even though this ammo was labeled for MG use only, the morons
loaded it up on M1 clips anyway.
Jeff/addesign
wh...@cs.utexas.edu (John W. Engel) wrote:
#I don't know about the U.S. LC 72-produced ammo, but there MOST DEFINATELY
#has been recently imported a batch of Hirtenberger 9mm marked for
#the Sterling (L2A1 headstamp) that is WAY too hot for most 9mm handguns.
#Hirtenberger wrote BATF a warning letter about this stuff, which
#was recently published in either Machine Gun News or Small Arms Review.
#This has been documented, and is real. I do not recall the exact pressure
#spec on this stuff, but seem to remember that it is in excess of
#42K psi. This will trash many well-made 9mm pistols.
Wonder how they'd work in the 9mm CZ52s. The original 7.62x25 version
was designed with the super-strong roller lockup for handling Czech
machine gun ammo. Anyone know how much pressure (or beating) the 9mm
can tolerate?
(I don't have the 9mm yet, but I'm still thinking about it.)
Jeff/addesign
Arne Carlsten
The Swedish M/39B 9mm loading comes readily to mind as well. It's one of
the major reasons the Lahti pistol was taken out of service in Sweden.
--
Arne Gustav Carlsten
Flagstaff, Arizona
Chomh da/na le muc...