Tree damaged by car accident - Insurance problems
Alan Sung
house out near the road. The tree has a 7" caliper, 21" circumference and is
about 35-40 feet high. A chunk of the bark about 18" high and about 1/3 of
the circumference was knocked off down to the bare wood.
The driver was very cordial and said that their insurance would pay for the
damage. I had a certified horticulturalist from Weston Nurseries come and
look at the tree and write a letter giving an estimate. It says "This tree
will continue to live for several more years, however, with each year this
tree will leaf out less and less, resulting in rotting branches and internal
rot of the exposed hard wood due to the extensive cambium layer scar. No
remedial action can save this tree."
The numbers were:
Tree: $5,000
Delivery w/crane truck: $275
Tree and stump removal: $600
Installation w/3 laborers and compost soil: $600
After sending this information off to Commerce Insurance, they came back and
said "We'll give you $500 because we do not think the tree needs to be
replaced and that's all that the damaged bark is worth. We sent an adjuster
to look at the tree and it looks just fine."
I am looking to get a second opinion from another certified horticulturalist
who is familiar with tree values and associated costs. Does anyone have any
recommendations or the best way to proceed?
Thanks,
-al sung
Hopkinton, MA
Doug Kanter
"Alan Sung" <a...@sung.com> wrote in message
news:Y96Xc.90515$TI1.90202@attbi_s52...
paghat
I think the arborist gave you a very sound diagnosis, & the insurance
company is doing what insurance companies always attempt to do, evade
payment.
Your next letter to them should be from your attorney, with added costs of
a second aborist's diagnosis, plus attorney fees.
But bare in mind that moving a full grown tree to a new location is not
the most certain way of getting a healthy tree. Unless it comes with a
three-year guarantee (you'll be lucky to get a one-year guarantee, from
tree movers who know it'll last that long at least so they're safe
offering that limited promise) the chances of it slowly wasting away are
very good for an uprooted & transported adult tree. A much younger tree
will settle in much more certainly.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com
zxcvbob
It might be better to file a claim against your homeowner's policy and
let your insurance company sue the other insurance co. At least talk to
your insurance agent about how to collect from the other deadbeat
insurance company. (it gets interesting if they are the same company)
BTW, around here, Norway Maple is considered an invasive exotic species.
Best regards,
Bob
Vox Humana
"zxcvbob" <zxc...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:2p4cf3F...@uni-berlin.de...
One thing to consider about filing a claim with your insurance company is
that it could end-up getting you dropped, particularly if you have filed
other claims in the last few years. Insurance companies have been
scrambling to cut cost recently with the loss of investment income coupled
with underwriting losses from large-scale disasters. In Ohio, insurers have
been reviewing their files and dropping anyone with more than two claims in
three to five years. I know of two people who were dropped this year even
though they had only filed two small claims that were related to damage
beyond their control. Another person received an advisory letter. In
addition, I learned recently that people are checking the number of claims
that a home seller has filed as part of their home search to make sure that
they can get insurance and that the premiums will be affordable. Filing a
claim may make it harder to sell your home if that is a possibility. Life
never gets more simple.
Ann
>It might be better to file a claim against your homeowner's policy and
>let your insurance company sue the other insurance co. At least talk to
>your insurance agent about how to collect from the other deadbeat
>insurance company. (it gets interesting if they are the same company)
Bad idea. Insurance claims on your own policy can lead to
cancellation.
Commerce is responsive to lawyer threats. Paghat had several good
suggestions, I'd take her advise
.
>BTW, around here, Norway Maple is considered an invasive exotic species.
Unfortunately they're still sold by the nursery industry.
--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
your house is totaled. they cancel policies and black list people faster than car
insurance companies. Ingrid
zxcvbob <zxc...@charter.net> wrote:
>It might be better to file a claim against your homeowner's policy and
>let your insurance company sue the other insurance co. At least talk to
>your insurance agent about how to collect from the other deadbeat
>insurance company. (it gets interesting if they are the same company)
>
>BTW, around here, Norway Maple is considered an invasive exotic species.
>
>Best regards,
>Bob
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.
Gardñ@Gardñ.info
news:FL7Xc.228133$fv.8...@fe2.columbus.rr.com:
> One thing to consider about filing a claim with your insurance company
> is that it could end-up getting you dropped, particularly if you have
> filed other claims in the last few years
i wonder what line of business insurance companies are planning to shift
toward?
Gardñ@Gardñ.info
4ax.com:
> Commerce is responsive to lawyer threats.
true, they pass laws that restrict usage of courts for only business
catfights.
Vox Humana
"Gardñ@Gardñ.info" <Gardñ@_fake_mail_Gardñ.info> wrote in message
news:Xns9550A0DB3...@65.245.115.2...
The business of taking your policy money for twenty years and then dropping
you when you file a claim because the siding blew off your house and then
six months later your roof was damaged by lighting.
Travis
> BTW, around here, Norway Maple is considered an invasive exotic species.
>
> Best regards,
> Bob
Unless you say where here is your statement is worthless.
--
Travis in Shoreline Washington
Frank Logullo
small claims court in your area. You can usually sue there without needing
a lawyer.
Frank
Murph
"Alan Sung" wrote
The insurance company is banking that you did not have the tree insured for
more. Your homeowners policy _probably_ would only pay $500 for removal etc
if it got hit by lightning. $500 is the normal for storm damage, be it 1
tree or 20, most policies have a $500 cap per incident (not per tree). You
should be able to verify this through your policy or a quick call to your
agent. Now if you updated your insurance, and can prove you had it insured
for over 6k, then it's a different story.
Vox Humana
"Murph" <inv...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:WnaXc.516640$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I don't see how the victim's insurance is relevant to the value of the tree.
Ann
>zxcvbob wrote:
>
>
>> BTW, around here, Norway Maple is considered an invasive exotic species.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Bob
>
>Unless you say where here is your statement is worthless.
Norway maples are an invasive exotic species all over the country.
They push out native red maples around here, along with sugar maple
seedlings. I can show you acres of forest overtaken by them around
here. They shouldn't be sold period.
Murph
"Vox Humana" wrote
> I don't see how the victim's insurance is relevant to the value of the
tree.
Your statement is exactly why every homeowner needs to keep their policies
updated.
Most homeowners basic policies cover $2k in jewelry, should you have a fire
or anyother loss which is by nature or by a person. You cannot attempt to
claim $10k in jewelry loss, unless you have an additional rider.
Should you add a shed, you need to update your policy.
ANY improvements, be it landscape or structural, you need to update your
policy. Specialty landscapes need a rider, ask your agent.
Insurance is not meant to be a windfall in instances like the OP (which is
how insurance companies look at this). The relevancy of value would come
out in court, if the OP had a rider for a specialty item. If they didn't
feel it was valuable enough for an additional premium, this is one of the
first fact findings arguements in insurance. Rest assured, precedents have
already been set for instances like this.
Policies for actual cash replacement, do not include trees. You can ask
your agent and let them explain to you.
I don't intend to prove a point, give your friendly agent a call and
inquire. Most agents are more than willing to talk about an instance like
the OP's.
If I were the OP, I would talk to my agent first before running to an
attorney. The agent has already been paid to answer questions. The attorney
will answer questions for a fee, and unfortunately some are eager to go to
court be it a win or lose situation. It would be unfortunate for the OP to
have a couple thousand dollars in legal fees, with the end result being
rewarded with $500 as intially offered by the insurance company. The OP is
already mounting fees from a horticulturalist, unless this was a freebee.
zxcvbob
policy would pay, not the homeowner's policy. The homeowner's policy
*should* be irrelevant.
I mentioned the homeowner's policy eariler because it would (I think)
cover whatever was not paid by the other guy's auto policy. The
homeowner's insurance company would have an interest in you collecting
from that other policy so they wouldn't have to pay anything.
I still don't think I explained that very well...
Bob
Murph
"zxcvbob" wrote
> I think Vox's point was that the SUV driver's automobile liability
> policy would pay, not the homeowner's policy. The homeowner's policy
> *should* be irrelevant.
>
> I mentioned the homeowner's policy eariler because it would (I think)
> cover whatever was not paid by the other guy's auto policy. The
> homeowner's insurance company would have an interest in you collecting
> from that other policy so they wouldn't have to pay anything.
>
> I still don't think I explained that very well...
>
> Bob
This is why I encourage the OP to contact their agent. Each State in the
U.S.A varies, I do know for a fact that in the State of Ohio, this would be
relevant in an instance like the OP's.
It doesn't matter what, you think, Vox thinks, or I think. I'm going by my
experience in the State of Ohio. Our insurance and precedents mean
absolutely ziltch when comparing to another State.
I repeat, the OP's agent would be the best one to contact at this time.
Warren
>
> "Vox Humana" wrote
>
> > I don't see how the victim's insurance is relevant to the value of
the
> tree.
>
> Your statement is exactly why every homeowner needs to keep their
policies
> updated.
>
> Most homeowners basic policies cover $2k in jewelry, should you have a
fire
> or anyother loss which is by nature or by a person. You cannot
attempt to
> claim $10k in jewelry loss, unless you have an additional rider.
<snip>
The insurance is the auto insurance of the guy who hit the tree. What
his homeowner's insurance would cover is irrelevant.
> If I were the OP, I would talk to my agent first before running to an
> attorney. The agent has already been paid to answer questions. The
attorney
> will answer questions for a fee, and unfortunately some are eager to
go to
> court be it a win or lose situation. It would be unfortunate for the
OP to
> have a couple thousand dollars in legal fees, with the end result
being
> rewarded with $500 as intially offered by the insurance company. The
OP is
> already mounting fees from a horticulturalist, unless this was a
freebee.
If you're talking about him going to his home owner's insurance, it's a
very bad idea to talk to him/her. If he files a claim, or even alerts
his homeowner's insurance company that there has been significant damage
to the tree, an entry will be made into the CLUE record for his house.
Not only does he run the risk of being canceled at the next renewal (or
seeing a big rise in his premium), any other insurance company he would
go to for coverage will use CLUE and see his problem.
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/julie_tripp/index.ssf?/base/business/10917937947660.xml
Talking to his homeowner's insurance agent about this problem will
likely cost him quite a bit in the long run.
On the other hand, no attorney is going to want to go to court over
damage to a single tree. That includes the insurance company's legal
department as well. But for under $100 he can get an attorney to write a
letter to the auto insurance company reminding them that they have an
obligation to pay costs, and that the certified arborist is a far more
qualified person to determine the tree's damage, and is far more
qualified to know what it costs to correct the damage, and make the
homeowner whole. That will usually be enough to shake out a good
settlement in an automobile accident with less than $10,000 damage to
another party's property, which is almost certainly below the liability
limits of the driver's policy.
Again: Do NOT get the homeowner's insurance involved.
This is a fairly simple issue in the auto insurance world. All that's
left is to negotiate the settlement. Put it in the homeowner's insurance
world, and CLUE will haunt the OP for a long, long time, and cost him
far more in the long run than if he footed the bill out of his own
pocket.
--
Warren H.
==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: "The Simpsons" 2005 Calendars and Books:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/simpsons/books.html
Warren
> I mentioned the homeowner's policy eariler because it would (I think)
> cover whatever was not paid by the other guy's auto policy. The
> homeowner's insurance company would have an interest in you collecting
> from that other policy so they wouldn't have to pay anything.
>
> I still don't think I explained that very well...
We got what you meant, but you need to, as the title of this article
says, get a "CLUE" on homeowner's insurance, and the ramifications of
making a claim.
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/julie_tripp/index.ssf?/base/business/10917937947660.xml
As was mentioned earlier, don't go to your homeowner's company unless
you have a huge claim, for example, you need to replace the house. (Then
sell it in the first year, as the CLUE record will stay with the new
house.)
Murph
"Warren" <who...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eQbXc.311406$a24.59732@attbi_s03...
You're wrong. Agents are there to answer all questions. They do not file
claims when you ask them a question. They will guide you the best route to
take. Agents know their prospective regulatory laws of their State.
I would like to know, how you know if it's relevant in the OP's State? I
know for a fact it's relevant in the State of Ohio, all States vary as I
mentioned before. It may or may not be relevant depending on the OP's laws
and precedents in the State they reside.
Negotiating a settlement without having knowledge in the field, is very poor
advice.
David Ross
tree before it was damaged, the cost of TOTAL removal (including
cutting, hauling, and grinding out the stump so that a new tree can
be planted), and the costs of submitting the claim (e.g., the cost
of the arborist's estimate). Do not include the cost of a
replacement tree (see below).
Does you local municipality or county have an arborist? Is there
an agricultural extension? Can you pay to have them appraise the
tree? I contacted a friend with our local park agency to appraise
the value of two trees, based on how the agency values its own
trees in this situation. Otherwise, get another arborist, one that
is both licensed (if they are licensed in your area) and a member
of a national professional society. (Add the cost to your claim.)
When the claim is settled and the old tree is removed, replace it
with a much younger tree (5 or 10 gallon can). In a few years, it
will be thriving and growing much more vigorously than a specimen
tree the size of your old tree. And you will have some money left
over from the settlement.
--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>
I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <http://www.mozilla.org/>.
Vox Humana
> I think Vox's point was that the SUV driver's automobile liability
> policy would pay, not the homeowner's policy. The homeowner's policy
> *should* be irrelevant.
>
Yes. That's exactly what I meant. Let's say the homeowner fell on hard
times, or was very wealthy and didn't have insurance. Would everything he
owned be considered worthless because it wasn't insured? I don't think so.
Warren
>
> You're wrong. Agents are there to answer all questions. They do not
file
> claims when you ask them a question. They will guide you the best
route to
> take. Agents know their prospective regulatory laws of their State.
>
> I would like to know, how you know if it's relevant in the OP's State?
I
> know for a fact it's relevant in the State of Ohio, all States vary as
I
> mentioned before. It may or may not be relevant depending on the OP's
laws
> and precedents in the State they reside.
>
> Negotiating a settlement without having knowledge in the field, is
very poor
> advice.
CLUE is a national database. It's used in Ohio just as well as it's used
elsewhere. It records more than just claims and payouts. A significant
inquiry can be recorded.
There may be limits to how the data can ultimately be used in each
state, but we're talking the extent of the impact, not whether there
will be an impact. Use your insurance, and your rates will go up. Become
a significant risk to the insurance company based on history, and you
may not be offered a renewal.
If the OP goes to their homeowner's insurance company for this matter,
at the very least, his premium will go up next year, and that's
regardless of what state he lives in.
The liability for the damage rests with the driver, and his auto
insurance company. Let the driver of the car deal with the higher auto
insurance premiums due to his negligence. The homeowner should not get
his homeowners insurance company involved. If the OP wants advice about
the laws of his state, the place to go is an attorney. Not an insurance
agent. I'm pretty sure that even in Ohio insurance agents can't practice
law without a license.
Steve Wolfe
and
> said "We'll give you $500 because we do not think the tree needs to be
> replaced and that's all that the damaged bark is worth. We sent an
adjuster
> to look at the tree and it looks just fine."
Insurance companies (or their CEOs) don't get rich by writing out checks.
Make no mistake about it, their business is making money, not taking care of
you. In dealing with insurance companies, I've never been able to get
anywhere near reasonable restitution without a battle. A regular adjuster
will not EVER be able to do it for you, you're going to have to go farther
up the food chain.
And, unfortunately, in the case of a tree (instead of a car), you're
probably going to have to file a lawsuit. If your locality allows that
large of damages in small claims court, and you feel sufficiently prepared
to go up against the insurance company, you can do it very cheaply. But
make no mistake about it, though, it's going to be a battle.
steve
Steve Wolfe
> tree before it was damaged, the cost of TOTAL removal (including
> cutting, hauling, and grinding out the stump so that a new tree can
> be planted), and the costs of submitting the claim (e.g., the cost
> of the arborist's estimate). Do not include the cost of a
> replacement tree (see below).
That's still not at all fair to him. That's like letting someone hit your
car, total it, and letting their insurance just tow it away. They're taking
a real-world loss to their property value by losing the tree, and in order
to be made whole, the tree should be replaced - or they should be
compensated for the loss of property value. That's not trying to stick it
to the insurance company, that's just being made whole.
I've had to deal with insurance companies of idiots who have caused me
harm and damage various times. Not in any case did the insurance company
want to even come close to an honest restitution of the damages. I didn't
ask for anything other than to be restored to what I had before their
insured party caused the damages. (I don't think that's at all unfair) In
every case, I had to fight a long, hard battle just to get that - but
luckily, so far, I've been able to eventually drag it out of them.
If I were the person who caused the accident, I'd probably feel
differently. But as an innocent victim, I have a hard time accepting the
fact that I should just bend over and take a loss just because some
insurance company feels like pocketing a little more money that quarter.
steve
David Hill
I would ask the company if they would be willing to undertake to have the
tree removed, the ground made up and a new tree; of say 15ft; planted in its
place.
Then in addition you claim a figure of say $1000 for loss of amenity (not
having the mature tree to look at).
I would not want to try to replace with like for like, not a hope in hell of
it ever being a good tree.
--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk
Alan Sung
"Doug Kanter" <ancien...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ow6Xc.2313$XG4....@news01.roc.ny...
> Is Commerce your company, or the driver's?
Commerce is the driver's insurance company.
-al
Alan Sung
news:cgk7nl$rmv$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
I asked Commerce that if they had an adjuster give them a $500 figure, then
would they be willing to come out and replace the tree or could they give me
the name of the landscape company/nursery who would perform this work for
$500. They said NO because they do not think the tree should be replaced at
all.
I then asked them who made the assessment of the damage and what their
qualifications were. They said they could not divulge that information and
the damage assessment report could only be obtained by subpoena in court.
-al sung
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
................... please people, can you top post so I dont have to scroll down
thru all the previous person's message to find the message???? It just makes more
sense if messages arent trimmed. Ingrid
Doug Kanter
Call your town/city hall and find out if you can do this yourself. In other
words, the judge who handles small claims might be able to provide a
subpoena without your having to hire a lawyer. This could end up being
cheap.
zxcvbob
They are daring you to sue them.
It's time to contact the state attorney general's office, and the state
board of insurance examiners.
Bob
S. M. Henning
> ..... please people, can you top post so I dont have to scroll down
> thru all the previous person's message to find the message???? It just makes
> more sense if messages arent trimmed.
No. But if the message is trimmed, it makes more sense to leave the
part a person is responding to at the beginning so they don't have to
repeat what they are responding to.
It makes most sense to trim and then post he reply after each section of
the trimming.
such as:
>> trimming 1
response 1
>> trimming 2
response 2
>> trimming 3
response 3.
etc.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to rhod...@earthlink.net
David Ross
> I previously wrote [also in part]:
> > Revise your claim. Your claim should include only the value of the
> > tree before it was damaged, the cost of TOTAL removal (including
> > cutting, hauling, and grinding out the stump so that a new tree can
> > be planted), and the costs of submitting the claim (e.g., the cost
> > of the arborist's estimate). Do not include the cost of a
> > replacement tree (see below).
>
> That's still not at all fair to him. That's like letting someone hit your
> car, total it, and letting their insurance just tow it away. They're taking
> a real-world loss to their property value by losing the tree, and in order
> to be made whole, the tree should be replaced - or they should be
> compensated for the loss of property value. That's not trying to stick it
> to the insurance company, that's just being made whole.
You failed to understand what I wrote. The claim must include the
value of the tree BEFORE the accident. That is exactly how a claim
in an automobile collision would be settled if the victim's vehicle
were totalled; he would get what the car was worth before the
accident, not what a new car would cost. In this way, the
homeowner would receive compensation for the loss of the value of
his property caused by the fatal damage to his tree.
In this case (a gardening newsgroup), my advice stands. (That's
planting advice, not insurance or legal advice.) Replace the tree
with something younger and smaller. It is likely to become better
established and thrive better than planting a specimen tree that
attempts to match the damaged tree in age and size. In the
meantime, since a 5-10 gallon tree would obviously cost less than
the old tree was worth, the homeowner would realize some cash as
compensation for the time it takes the new tree to grow.
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
consuming. I rarely have a problem figuring out what is being talked about cause the
messages come threaded and in order. maybe 2% of the time if I dont know what the
topic is I roll down to take a look.
yes, once in a while I will intersperse responses to specific questions. but I dont
respond to most messages.
what is most time consuming is rolling all the way down to find the response is some
variation of "me too".
Ingrid
"S. M. Henning" <pig...@aol.com> wrote:
>No. But if the message is trimmed, it makes more sense to leave the
>part a person is responding to at the beginning so they don't have to
>repeat what they are responding to.
>
>It makes most sense to trim and then post he reply after each section of
>the trimming.
Warren
> trimming is not a universal practice, which is what makes top posting
a lot less time
> consuming. I rarely have a problem figuring out what is being talked
about cause the
> messages come threaded and in order. maybe 2% of the time if I dont
know what the
> topic is I roll down to take a look.
> yes, once in a while I will intersperse responses to specific
questions. but I dont
> respond to most messages.
> what is most time consuming is rolling all the way down to find the
response is some
> variation of "me too".
Now you see, without a lot of rearranging, I can't include the comments
that lead up to yours. I could be anti-social, and top post again to
keep some of it in order, but then anyone reading the post will get
lost. Or I could spend some time pulling the relevant comments from
previous posts to put this in context, but I'm going to let this stand
totally out of context to show how top posting ruins the flow of the
discussion.
Yes, I would trim out the previous comments that had nothing to do with
posting methods. That's part of keeping the flow of the discussion
going, too. But if we had to rank things in order of important, keeping
things in order is more important than trimming the fat. Maybe you
remember everything relevant in the thread, but these posts will be
archived. A year from now, someone searching may find your post, and if
you've top posted, it doesn't make sense. Even if someone doesn't trim,
posting new comments at the bottom will result in a flow that makes
sense. People read from top to bottom.
Top posting is rude. It says "my comments are more important than
keeping the relevant parts of discussion intact". I'm probably wasting
my time because top posters are so wrapped-up in themselves that they
simply won't understand, and will refuse to change to the standard way
of doing things because it just doesn't work in their self-centered
world.
S. M. Henning
> trimming is not a universal practice, ...
But is should be. I have seen email messages with a half-dozen others
included.
> what is most time consuming is rolling all the way down ...
What is slick is a mouse with a thumbwheel on it. Then you can scroll
up and down in a fraction of a second. No time is consumed.
Vox Humana
"S. M. Henning" <pig...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:pighash-109F45...@news.isp.giganews.com...
> dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com wrote:
>
> > trimming is not a universal practice, ...
>
> But is should be. I have seen email messages with a half-dozen others
> included.
>
> > what is most time consuming is rolling all the way down ...
>
> What is slick is a mouse with a thumbwheel on it. Then you can scroll
> up and down in a fraction of a second. No time is consumed.
>
You can also page-down by hitting the space bar.
paghat
<vhu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
People who top-post, I tend to stop reading their posts after a while,
because I don't want to have to scroll down then back up again, just to
find out what the hell they think they're responding to. Their method
doubles the amount of time it takes to read the post in context, while
failing to double the value of the time spent reading.
Top-posting is outdone by people who leave nothing at all of the previous
post but respond to it anyway. No context at all!
As for people who never trim the previous posts so that each addition
makes consecutive posts longer & longer & longer, I rarely bother to
scroll to the bottom for the newest addition, because I've learned over
time if they're too dumb to know how to trim a post, they're too dumb to
say anything interesting. In some newsgroups, however, this is called
"cascading," & people make terse comments one after another until the
posts are exceedingly long. This is a tradition especially in flame
newsgroups, which pretty much reflects the value of never trimming.
I also tend to stop reading posters who don't have enough sense to turn
off MIME or html features. Again, if they're too dumb to post properly,
they're not apt to be bright enough to say anything of interest, so I'm
not likely to miss anything useful or entertaining by skipping to the
next.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com
Ge...@omitthisblueyonder.co.uk
OK, this is bottom posted, but I've thought long and hard about this
issue and realised that my view depends upon circumstances. If I am
coming to the thread where only one or two new messages have been
added since I last logged on and where I have seen and remembered
earlier messages within the last day or so when they are still
reasonably fresh in my mind, I can pick up the story quite adequately
with some reminder of old context posted above (with suitable
snipping) and new context bottom posted. In contrast, if I am playing
catch up with several week's worth of messages and multiple threads
(as I am with other threads at the moment), I have a lengthy session
where I know the content of the preceding message in the thread
because I have read it from the beginning of the thread 30 secs
earlier and it is tedious to scroll down to find the added new
comments. I have come to the conclusion that I will accept any method
of reading posts in this newsgroup in order to make sure that I don't
miss out on the intrigue, the scandal, the conflict going on, as well
as updated news about old friends, and of course ... occasionally new
tips about gardening!
(;-)
Geoff
decipher email: gal...@leavethisoutblueyonder.co.uk
Warren
> OK, this is bottom posted, but I've thought long and hard about this
> issue and realised that my view depends upon circumstances.
But if you're participating in a thread in which comments are so germane
that they should survive trimming for more than just the next response,
just one person top posting throws everything off. They guarantee that
either,
A. The next post reads out of order, (Instead of 1, 2, 3, it reads
2, 1, 3)
B. Additional work is needed to re-order the comments,
C. All previous comments get trimmed, no matter how germane they are
to the context of the thread.
D. Additional posts are needed, creating more sub-threads, to
comment on previous posts.
Let's say I'd like to also add some comments about what some other folks
have said in this thread. (I don't.) If you had top-posted, I either
have to do a lot of editing to reorder the comments, or I could only
comment on your comments here, creating a sub-thread, and go back to the
main thread to comment on everything that's been said.
Essentially, each post should have enough of the thread to put the
response in context. But it should not include additional material that
doesn't add to the context. Sometimes this means two or three (or for a
very complex subject, maybe four or five, but seldom more) layers. For
those layers to flow correctly, people need to follow the standard of
trimming, and posting responses after what the responses is to.
Sometimes this is flat-out bottom posting. Sometimes it's posting
within. But it never is top posting. Top posting blows the continuity of
the thread all to hell.
I would suggest that it's not a matter of circumstances. Top posting
says "what I say is more important than the discussion as a whole" in
any circumstance.
S. M. Henning
> You can also page-down by hitting the space bar.
depending on what Newsreader program you are using and what type of
computer you have. I have a Mac with MT_NewsWatcher on it and that
works for me.
paghatSP...@netscape.net (paghat) wrote:
> People who top-post, I tend to stop reading their posts after a while,
> because I don't want to have to scroll down then back up again, just to
> find out what the hell they think they're responding to. Their method
> doubles the amount of time it takes to read the post in context, while
> failing to double the value of the time spent reading.
I second that. That is 100% true.
And trim, trim, trim!!!
gregpresley
sentence or paragraph query. Although I've admitted guilt, I don't feel
guilty, which, as a lapsed Catholic, is the only moral aspect I care
about....lol
"S. M. Henning" <pig...@aol.com> wrote in message trim, trim, trim!!!
Steve Wolfe
> value of the tree BEFORE the accident. That is exactly how a claim
> in an automobile collision would be settled if the victim's vehicle
> were totalled; he would get what the car was worth before the
> accident, not what a new car would cost.
I've always seen them handled as the cost of a replacement. That may (or
may not) be the value of the car before the accident.
steve
David Hill
tree time to either recover or die.
Or are you all hoping there will be a reply from the insurance company in
the mean time?
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
I cut out the intervening comments, almost always they are covered in later comments.
sometimes I cut out the "who wrote" so the wrong person isnt credited with others
comments.
ascribing motives to others is pointless to any discussion. motives are unknowable.
Ingrid
"Warren" <who...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Now you see, without a lot of rearranging, I can't include the comments
>that lead up to yours.
>Top posting is rude.
self-centered
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
equally well in all applications. after scrolling down 50 posts I begin to get
repetitive motion pain. then I start deleting those posts. Ingrid
"S. M. Henning" <pig...@aol.com> wrote:
>dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com wrote:
>
>> trimming is not a universal practice, ...
>
>But is should be. I have seen email messages with a half-dozen others
>included.
>
>> what is most time consuming is rolling all the way down ...
>
>What is slick is a mouse with a thumbwheel on it. Then you can scroll
>up and down in a fraction of a second. No time is consumed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
feeling about bottom vs top posting tho. I will be scrolling down your posts of
course. Ingrid
"Vox Humana" <vhu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
zxcvbob
> well shoot, why didnt somebody tell me that before!!! way cool. doesnt change my
> feeling about bottom vs top posting tho. I will be scrolling down your posts of
> course. Ingrid
You can go straight to the bottom with the END key. (may vary depending
on your news reader)
Bob
Ann
>You can go straight to the bottom with the END key. (may vary depending
>on your news reader)
Or Control-End, if just the End key doesn't do it. Control-Home, too,
to get to the top. That works in most any window in any program,
including browsers.
--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************
Travis
> zxcvbob <zxc...@charter.net> expounded:
>
>
>>You can go straight to the bottom with the END key. (may vary depending
>>on your news reader)
>
>
> Or Control-End, if just the End key doesn't do it. Control-Home, too,
> to get to the top. That works in most any window in any program,
> including browsers.
Which key is the "END" key?
OE Quote-Fix will place the cursor at the bottom of a reply instead of
the top.
--
Travis in Shoreline Washington
Ann
>Which key is the "END" key?
>
>OE Quote-Fix will place the cursor at the bottom of a reply instead of
>the top.
It's under Home on the righthand side. The top row is Insert, Home
and Page Up, the bottom row is Delete, End and Page Down. Most
keyboards have it. Laptops have these keys in strange places.
Alan Sung
Here's an update from the OP.
I had another certified arborist come take a look at the tree. He said the
replacement value of the tree itself is in the neighborhood of $6,000, which
corresponds roughly to what the first certified horticulturist came up with.
The wound is starting to scar over and the tree may live although it is
slightly tipped from the car hitting it and may have some root stress. He
asked me how I would like a letter written up. I told him whatever he
considered a reasonable solution and would hold up in court. He said that
the insurance company would probably be able to successfully argue in court
that the tree does need to be completely replaced. To testify in court he
charges $250/hr. He said that the $500 offer from the insurance company is
probably just the driver's deductible and that they'd just be passing thru
that amount to me so that they would not have any out of pocket expense. He
recommended that the wound be trimmed and that the tree roots be spaded. He
said that Norway Maples have a much higher healing capacity than say a Sugar
Maple and that if it were a Sugar Maple, that the tree was a goner. He is in
the process of writing up a letter and has not given me an exact dollar
figure yet that he thinks this damage is worth since there is some equity
value in a tree of this size.
-al sung
Hopkinton, MA
Zone 6a
enigma
news:FL7Xc.228133$fv.8...@fe2.columbus.rr.com:
> One thing to consider about filing a claim with your
> insurance company is that it could end-up getting you
> dropped, particularly if you have filed other claims in the
> last few years. Insurance companies have been scrambling
> to cut cost recently with the loss of investment income
> coupled with underwriting losses from large-scale
> disasters. In Ohio, insurers have been reviewing their
> files and dropping anyone with more than two claims in
> three to five years. I know of two people who were dropped
> this year even though they had only filed two small claims
> that were related to damage beyond their control. Another
> person received an advisory letter. In addition, I
> learned recently that people are checking the number of
> claims that a home seller has filed as part of their home
> search to make sure that they can get insurance and that
> the premiums will be affordable. Filing a claim may make
> it harder to sell your home if that is a possibility. Life
> never gets more simple.
also, some insurance companies keep track of calls just
asking about coverage & if you make too many, even if you
never actually file a claim, they will drop you.
if you have questions about what your insurance covers *read
your policy*, don't call the agent... that could get you
dropped.
lee
Dan Hartung
> also, some insurance companies keep track of calls just asking about
> coverage & if you make too many, even if you never actually file a
> claim, they will drop you. if you have questions about what your
> insurance covers *read your policy*, don't call the agent... that
> could get you dropped. lee
Actually, the advice is don't call the 1-800 number, as that call *will*
be tracked. Your local agent is most likely independent or in some way
more dependent on your business so you can consider him an ally.
But yes, it sucks that they drop people even for making *inquiries*.
Asshattery.
rickjhe...@gmail.com
Jeff Layman
> I just had this happen on my property and the driver destroyed my lawn, 2 bushes and four trees. The driver was killed going 72 MPH on a 40 MPH rd on a 30 MPH curve. Their insurance company paid the estimate of $8,600 to clean up the mess and repair lawn and replace the trees. I called my lawyer and he said the insurance company is responsible for the damage caused by their policy holder They may require more than one estimate and decide to pay the lowest one. In the state of Delaware if the insurance company does not pay and you take them to court and if you win the claim then they have to pay for all costs including damage to your property, court costs and the fees for your attorney....all costs incurred. It was not you fault that this incident occurred. You also have the right to sue the party that caused the damage in court for mental stress. The insurance company is only responsible for the damage to your property but the insured is responsible for the anguish they caused you and your family and you can purdue this in a court of law as per my attorney.
original message was posted...
--
Jeff
larrysb...@gmail.com
hub...@ccanoemail.ca
wrote:
> And ignore all the advice here including mine.
>
rosh colman
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