Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
Big Daddy
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?
Phisherman
wrote:
>I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
>even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?
Carnivorous animal feces should not be added to a garden nor compost.
It could contain harmful pathogens. I know someone who added dog
feces to an area that grew spearmint, but they did not use the
spearmint for consumption. Rather than adding to a compost pile, you
could probably safely add it to a "digester," which can take oils,
meat, and other things not normally suited for a compost pile.
Jane
aged so the ammonia is gone.
Jane
"Big Daddy" <BigDo...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:BigDogLinux-4339...@netnews.attbi.com...
paghat
Daddy <BigDo...@attbi.com> wrote:
> I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
> even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?
Controled experiments have found dog poo heats rapidly, composts
completely, leaves no potentially harmful pathogens behind. As for
putting it fresh & yucky right in the garden, there are indeed many
potential pathogens one might be exposed to, the more harmful if if one
doesn't follow normal hygienic practices after gardening. But at worst,
it's no more dangerous than living with an animal that poops in the yard &
scrapes its bum across the living room carpet & licks peanut butter
sandwich particles right into the kids' mouths. The hysterics one
occasionally hears about composted poo of carniverous beasties isn't 100%
baseless, but certainly exaggerated to the point of superstition -- for
what risk does exist will always be considerably less than just petting
the dog.There are in fact so many illnesses that dogs spread to humans
it's a wonder the worry-warts ever have a pet, & they should also stop
gardening & wrap themselves up in sterilized bubblewrap, since every year
quite a few people, generally elderly with no tetanus shots in 20 years,
get blood poisoning & die just from gardening in wholesome soil. If people
wanna worry about stuff that'll make 'em sick up to & including dropping
dead, they should start with their fat & sugar intake, not with the
possibility that their habit of juggling rubber dog doodies might cause
them to accidentally grab a couple fistfuls of actual dogshit.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/
Thalocean2
will transfer from your soil to your plants. When you eat these plants the
metals will collect in your brain tissue and eventually cause damage.
Laura B.
Penny Morgan
that is a carnivore (meat eating), do NOT use their waste
on gardens or in compost. Any animal that is herbivore (plant eating), DO
use in compost and gardens.
I guess that's why chicken, cow, horse, etc. seems to be the poop of choice
for fertilizers. Don't worry, I had a stupid neighbor argue
with me that her cat poop in her gardens were fertilizing her plants. It
didn't take long to see flies, maggots and dead plants. HA!
Do a search on composting and manure and I bet you'll find some info on why
certain animal waste is not used.
Penny
Zone 7b - North Carolina
"Big Daddy" <BigDo...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:BigDogLinux-4339...@netnews.attbi.com...
paghat
Morgan" <PMOR...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> The rule of thumb that I learned about composting manure is that any animal
> that is a carnivore (meat eating), do NOT use their waste
> on gardens or in compost. Any animal that is herbivore (plant eating), DO
> use in compost and gardens. I guess that's why chicken, cow, horse, etc.
> seems to be the poop of choice for fertilizers.
The problem of e-coli in herbivore poo & salmonella from chickenshit means
it's JUST AS DANGEROUS as dog & cat poo with its potential to carry
toxocara to people. Which is to say, it's not terribly dangerous if you're
not sticking poo-encrusted fingers in your mouth or up your nose. These
superstitions against dog & cat poo are hard to weed out of the gardening
community! The distinction commonly made between carnivore poo "bad"
herbivore poo "good" is completely baseless. One of the riskiest exposures
is e-coli in cowpies, & salmonella in chickenshit. Well-composted shit is
safe, regardless of the animal it plopped out of.
>Don't worry, I had a stupid neighbor argue
> with me that her cat poop in her gardens were fertilizing her plants. It
> didn't take long to see flies, maggots and dead plants. HA!
>
> Do a search on composting and manure and I bet you'll find some info on why
> certain animal waste is not used.
Do a search on the web & you can find that black people have lower IQs
than white people, that guns don't kill people, & flying saucer
kidnappings are real.
Most of what can be read throughout the Web on this topic is, err, crap.
But this page is pretty good:
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/garden/composting/composting.html
It notes that thermophilic activity at 130 degrees is sufficient to kill
ALL pathogens in dog & cat poo, with five turns at three day intervals.
This is based on actual tests at the University of Oregon. Several other
univeristy websites have contrary information -- none of them did tests so
just posted opinions without checking the actual studies. And of course
the generic garden sites are just the lamest information imaginable,
mostly rumors & myths & no facts whatsoever. The University of Oregon
study showed that temperatures ROUTINELY reach a high enough temperature
in any well-mixed pile, it is not the least bit difficult to do safely.
>
> Penny
The credible reason to avoid fresh dog & cat feces is it carries diseases
(as does herbivore poo). Yet the worries are the same as one would have
from picking up your dog's poops while walking the dog (as laws require),
or cleaning the catbox, which are if anything RISKIER activities. The
number of POSSIBLE diseases humans can get from touching the animals
themselves is so long & scary that a full accounting would probably cause
some people to get rid of all their pets immediately. People who practice
good family hygiene are not at much at risk. I'll repost a commentary on
composting dog poo:
-------
-------
MANY people compost their own dog's poo. Some people have thought there is
a risk to doing this, though a much smaller risk than having a dog at all
since pathogens are much more likely to be passed living animal to animal
(& the dog is equally likely to get something from its human). Some have
said it is best to let the turds sun-dry to kill any possible pathogenic
microbes, THEN toss into the compost. Actually, as it turns out, all
worries are pretty much groundless.
Good composting methods DO kill pathogens in dogshit contrary to
superstition. There wouldn't be a big Zoo Doo project in so many American
zoos if pathogens survived the composting process for manure composts. It
is not quite exactly the "heat" per se that breaks down matter in a
compost, the heat is a natural by-product of the endeavorings of the
bacteria, funguses & actinomycetes, the one-celled little critters &
primitive plantlifes that cause the fermentation of carboyhydrates as they
yum-yum-eatem-up their way through any kind of rotting matter turning it
from a pile of Zoo Doo or Dog Turds into rich sweet-smelling earth.
A fairly major study of this was undertaken in Alaska largely for the
benifit of dog mushers, whose kennels & training farms accumulate huge
dogshit piles, & wanted to know DEFINITIVELY if an almost pure dog-manure
compost would be a safe, healthy, high-nutrient garden soil enrichment.
Ann Rippy's Alaska study with scientific method set out to determine how
great a ratio of dogshit (nitrogen source) to woodchips or shredded straw
(carbon source) was most effective. The wrong mix was not necessarily any
less likely to be effective, but the right ratio speeded the process along
most handily. Ann Rippy found that two-thirds dogshit to one-third carbon
source is best. The heat-range in the compost was somewhere around 150
degrees (130 to 170) Fahrenheit. When temperatures fell lower, "turning"
or otherwise introducing oxygen to the mix got the temperature back up.
This temperature is more than sufficient to kill Toxicara canis (ringworm)
which is the most heat-tolerant of all pathogens ever likely to be in
dogshit. It took a scant three weeks, and only two turns to keep oxygen
level up, before the manure pile smelled like a perfectly sweet compost
pile, I wish I could make the same claim for my compost pile which doesn't
even have any shit in it. Hence Ann Rippy's study concluded: Compost from
dogshit is good, safe, & healthy to use for enriching garden soil.
paghat
thalo...@aol.com (Thalocean2) wrote:
> Carnivore and omnivore feces contain heavy metals. (mercury etc.) The metals
> will transfer from your soil to your plants. When you eat these plants the
> metals will collect in your brain tissue and eventually cause damage.
>
> Laura B.
If heavy metals were a problem in your cat & dog feces, it would be from
something in the immediate environment, & their heavy metals would
possibly match those of all the people in the same environment. It
certainly is NOT a problem restricted to carnivore or omnivore.
Composting does play a role in the introduction of unwanted heavy metals
into the gardening environment: Use of fireplace ashes, lawn clippings
from grasses fed mineral fertilizers, use of toxified lumber's shavings or
sawdust or painted material or dyed paper, & the heavy metals that pollute
CATTLE feeds hence steer & cow manures or which are even normal in sorghum
feeds & suchlike. Even STRAW can be a source of heavy metal pollutants.
There are many sources including a natural amount of heavy metals in the
soils used by plants as nutrients or picked up in cell manufacture, but
the usual causes of excess pollutants & excess phosphorus in the cattle
feeds, as in the lawn clippings or in straw, & ultimately in manure
composts (largely from herbevores), are mineral fertilizers, non-organic
gardening practices (chiefly pesticide use), bulking agents in commercial
composts, automobile & lawnmower pollutants, & even abrasion from stable
equipment. Among which the most signficant are phosphorus fertilizers
typically contaminated with zinc & cadmium; pesticides & herbicides; &
airborn pollutants from factories & motor vehicles including lawnmowers --
these are the sources that end up even in (herbevore) livestock manures
then composts. Dog poo isn't even on the map.
Some miscellaneous dog & cat poo compost facts:
Dog poo compost is higher in phosphates because dogs eat bones (or at
least dogfood with bonemeal in it).
Even clean soil can cause disease (gardening is a foremost cause of blood
poisoning, as tetanus lives in most soils) & good hygiene is certainly
necessary whether or not one is composting poo. But poor compost practices
may permit Toxocara to live some while in a heap, & hygiene becomes
especially necessary if one is turning a smelly pile. When the compost is
so well aged it smells like sweet autumn humous, even Toxocara will have
disappeared, yet because tetanus is always a risk, good hygiene after
handling composts or even regular soils remains essential. And note most
importantly, if your dog IS infected with Toxocara, then the eggs are
already all over your garden -- poo in the compost does not actually to
that risk.
Thermophilic conditions that result in pure ready compost in only three
weeks are difficult for most of us to achieve, though Ann Ripey's study
used normal backyard composting techniques. One reason it worked so well
for her is because, in fact, the presense of feces in a compost pile
itself increases thermophilic activity. If MORE of us would compost the
catbox & the dog-doo, the temperature of the compost pile would
automatically be higher. But anyone who worried about their temperatures
could just cycle the compost back into the garden after a full year.
If you read THE HUMANURE HANDBOOK - A Guide to Composting Human Manure --
you may still not want to break the law & dump your own turds in your
compost pile, but the whys, hows, & wherefores that show even human turds
would in fact be suitable for composting would help allay peoples' largely
baseless fears of composting doggy-duties & catbox gobbets.
All that said, it is still true that Toxocara is a health risk from owning
a dog or growing vegetables where dogs have access -- a risk all but the
most inveterate animal-haters have always been willing to take. And poo in
the compost is the exact level of real risk, not greater. Children are
most prone to getting worms from dogs but from direct contact with the
dog. Divisiveness on this issue is apt to remain because Toxocara will
always be a credible rather than merely superstitious worry -- but it is
the same risk from owning a dog at all. That heat-composted dog manure is
100% safe in all cases is nevertheless divisive because people will reply
that backyard composts do not sustain the reach the ideal temperature --
though in fact the 130 degree temperatures are EASILY and ROUTINELY
sustained, & when they are not it is mainly because of the lack of a fecal
component which would in fact increase the thermophilic activity. There
are arguments on both sides, but as point of fact, there are parallel
risks to steer & cattle manures & chicken manures, e-coli being only the
most ferocious of many risks, but as with dog poo, no risk at all when
fully composted.
So to me this remains central -- people who are paranoid about this sort
of thing shouldn't be gardening at all, since blood poisoning from merley
touching the ground is as great a risk, & even if they don't have pets,
some neighbor's dog probably pooped somewhere along the lawn, & risk of
toxocara is ALREADY as great as ever it gets. Indeed, the only safe thing
is never to go outside at all, & slather oneself with Pine Sol on an
hourly basis until the phenols destroy these paranoids' livers.
bunnie
:-)
I have not been so educated AND so entertained in a long time! I loved your
replies! Also your webpage is wonderful, what a wonderful outdoor
environment you have! Seriously though can you help me with my lady bug
questions I posted?
Thank you for the serious information & the long overdue laughter!
Sandra
Dwight Sipler
>
> Carnivore and omnivore feces contain heavy metals. (mercury etc.)...
I don't feed my pets heavy metals, so they must be transmuting their
organic food into heavy metals. Think of that! the ancient alchemists
must have been looking in the wrong place if they failed to create
valuable metals from dross. (PS: I'm an omnivore, so I should check my
output also).
On the other hand, maybe they're chewing on my car when I'm not looking.
TakeThisOut
>On the other hand, maybe they're chewing on my car when I'm not looking.
>
No, that would be MY car they're chewing on, and I would appreciate if you
would get them to stop, kind sir!
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TAKETHISOUT budysbackagain(@)THAT TOO a-oh-ell dot com
Beecrofter
> even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?
I have been trying to convince my dogs that their feces does not
belong in the garden but they just cock their heads to the side and
give me dumb looks. Periodically I remove it.
paghat
<his_b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Well I must say "You Know your Shit."
> :-)
> I have not been so educated AND so entertained in a long time! I loved your
> replies! Also your webpage is wonderful, what a wonderful outdoor
> environment you have! Seriously though can you help me with my lady bug
> questions I posted?
No, for that query I had not a clue.
> Thank you for the serious information & the long overdue laughter!
> Sandra
Always a good day if I successfully amused someone.
Ian
not. Just compost it and use it all the same.
Anonymo421
>I don't feed my pets heavy metals, so they must be transmuting their
>organic food into heavy metals. Think of that! the ancient alchemists
>must have been looking in the wrong place if they failed to create
>valuable metals from dross. (PS: I'm an omnivore, so I should check my
>output also).
>
>On the other hand, maybe they're chewing on my car when I'm not looking.
>
Bioamplification--little things eat minute amounts of heavy metal which
concentrate in their tissues. Larger things eat lots of them and amplify the
concentration. Those critters are eaten by even larger ones, and so the
process goes. This was the whole pesticide and eagle problem--by the time you
were up the food chain to fish that eagles ate, the toxins were at high enough
concentration to cause genetic damage. If your dog only eats dog food,
probably not an issue, but if it's a farm dog or one that otherwise has a lot
of time alone outside.... Even then, do you know what the food chain leading
up to your commercial dog food was? You may very well be feeding your pet
relatively high levels of heavy metals.
--
The US government wants the power to read citizens' email, but refuses to
defend the nation's borders. What's wrong with this picture?
Dwight Sipler
>
>...It's *not* the same and and never should be used on a vegetable
> garden...unless of course, you'd like a nice dose of ecoli
> (a single gram of dog feces can contain 23 million coliform bacteria),
> roundworm...[etc... snip]
I guess we're all doomed, since there's no way to keep the local
omnivores/carnivore (e.g. raccoons) population from defecating in our
gardens.
The above argument applies only to root crops and crops which have
contact with the soil. Bacteria/microorganisms do not travel through the
plants' vascular system to the fruit.
If the poop is properly composted, the bacteria/microorganisms do not
survive. The key word is "properly". It involves work, such as turning
your compost pile regularly to maintain a high temperature.
Just to start a parallel thread, the real problem with ecoli etc is the
overuse of bactericidal soaps etc. "In the old days" people would
occasionally get sick from such things but they weren't really bad and
people built up natural defenses/immunities. They have mutated in
response to our fight against nature so that they are now really bad.
Nostra Culpa.
paghat
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Ian wrote:
>
> > Everyone acts as if dog crap, or any other type of crap is toxic. Its
> > not. Just compost it and use it all the same.
>
> It's *not* the same and and never should be used on a vegetable
> garden...unless of course, you'd like a nice dose of ecoli
> (a single gram of dog feces can contain 23 million coliform bacteria),
> roundworm (the adult roundworm lays eggs which are passed onto the soil,
> completing the life cycle. If humans ingest the eggs, they hatch in the
> intestine and migrate to other body tissue; like lungs, liver, spinal
> cord. The larvae can even attack the retinas in the eye), tapeworm,
> hookworm, even toxoplasmosis (particularly if you're pregnant) and the
> list goes on and on ....read more at:
>
>
http://www.extension.umn.edu/projects/yardandgarden/ygbriefs/h238manure-dog-cat.html
In reality these are risks from having a catbox inside the house or having
a dog or cat shitting in the yard; these are the risks of just owning &
touching & living with & in any manner interacting with an animal. By
contrast there is ZERO risk from heat-composted dogshit. Zero risk once it
is composted. ALL pathogens are killed within 15 days at 130 degree F
temperatures (most pathogens die much sooner), & that temperature is
low-end normal temperature in well-mixed composts. Most studies recommend
temperatures of 150 degrees, erring on the side of extreme caution; a
University of Oregon study showed dog & cat poo composts needed only 130
degree F to be completely free of pathogens in half a month! I dunno
about you, but even when I push the envelope time-wise, I don't use my
compost when it is only 15 days old, but if I did, it'd already be
pathogen-free.
Most of the terror-tales implied by the above post are pure nonsense,
though the closest to reality would be the possibility of roundworm
(toxocara) in FRESH turds; it is also the last pathogen to die in the
compost & so therefore the most to be feared. But what does "most to be
feared" really add up to? Just this: THERE IS NO DOCUMENTED CASE OF ANY
COMPOST WORKER INFECTED WITH ROUNDWORMS FROM A COMPOST PILE!!! So where
to people get it? Usually from the catbox inside the house. It's also
carried to humans merely by kissing their beloved pet dog or cat, which
will have the eggs on their faces from frequently licking their asses.
So while the possibility of such infection from a compost pile might be a
far-fetched possibility but it hasn't yet been documented. By comparison
secondary pathogenic exposures (such as airborn funguses) are quite common
& not related to zoonotic pathogens in dog or cat poo. These usually only
cause allergenic response, but serious disease is not impossible from
funguses in composts, though so rare NO municipality regards amateur
composts as a public health hazard & most cities encourage even amateurs
to do it.
Anyone who seriously thinks something that has never been documented to
occur is a big thing to worry about damned well better never touch any
animal ever for as long as they live. That includes not touching human
animals. People carry so many diseases to one another, humans should all
be kept in separate plastic terrariums & never permitted to interact.
But I would love to reinforce extremist horrors about human activity
anywhere near the presence of animals, here is a mere sampling of what you
can get by owning a dog or cat -- & I assure you, the compost is safer BY
FAR so all these nervous nellies I hope I'm making scared shitless to ever
again pet their grandma's cat. YOU'LL DROP DEAD IF YOU PET THE CAT! Repost
of old article:
====
ZOONOTIC DISEASES; or, How Your Cat Is Going To Kill You
by Paghat the Ratgirl:
Cats spread more diseases to humans than do dogs, though any pet
puts a pet owner at risk.
Some dangerous diseases carried to humans from cats are most to be feared
in immunocompromised people (individuals with HIV or anyone receiving
chemotherapy or anyone otherwise allergy-prone or asthmatic). Some
diseases spread by cats are tropical hence uncommon in America or
England. Yet others are very common & all persons with pets are at risk.
Many bacteriums (but few viruses) as well as parasitic diseases spread
readily to humans from cats, especially cats manifesting overt symptoms of
illness such as diarrhea.
I've asterisked the more probable risks for the average catlover who would
not need to be paranoid to take precautions. The list was otherwise just
hastily composed from a net-search & relying mainly on laboratory sites
for the individual diseases listed below, & a couple more generic sites
(i.e., Lorraine Shelton's abbreviated overview here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~featherland/off/zoonoses.html)
but only IF they included apropos veterinarian journal citations (i.e.,:
M. R. Lappin's "Feline zoonotic diseases" in Vet. Clin. North Am. Small
Animal Practice, January 1993 , pages 57-78).
I share this with you because in part it is fun to scare people, &
people afraid of composts are bound to be especially easy to scare. BOO!
*1) Afipia and Rochalimaea henselae. Popularly known as "cat scratch
disease" one study found 40% of cats in a shelter carried the Rochalimaea
bacteria; the incidence of Afipia is not as well established. Cat scratch
fever is spread not just by scratch but also by cats' fleas. In humans it
causes systemic illness and lymph node lesions & is scarey shit especially
for immunocompromised individuals. Aggressive antibiotic treatment is
always effective in healthy young adults at least. The national incidence
of cat scratch fever in humans is high.
2) Anthrax. And you thought only the mail was scary.
3) Brucellosis. Nasty: acute or insidious onset of fever, night sweats,
undue fatigue, anorexia & weight loss, headache, and arthralgia.
4) Capnocytophaga canimorsus septicemia from cat scratch.
5) Feline pneumonitis has been proven contagious to humans in rare cases.
6) Cowpox spreads to humans through cats.
7) "Creeping eruption" a tropical disease cats can spread.
8) Dipylidium caninum. Most tapeworms are species specific & not
contageous to humans, but canine tapeworm has been known to spread to
humans from both dogs & cats.
9) Leptospirosis can spread from cats & dogs to humans. It causes severe
illness (fever, yellow skin, rash) & if untreated ends in meningitis,
kidney & liver disfunction & death. It is spread primarily by animals --
pets & livestock -- to humans in shared water, sneezes, contact with
infected eyes or nose, or even just abraded skin contact. Swimming in
ponds that may have animal urine run-off is especially risky. Fortunately
for Americans & Brits it primarily a problem in Africa, but in warmer
climates anyone who works or lives with animals is at risk.
10) Neisseria canis infects humans from cat or dog bites. Think gonorrhea.
*11) Pasteurella multocida, potentially a bad one & fairly common.
Believe that chestnut about your kitty's mouth being
cleaner than your own so it's okay to kiss each others' mouths? Over 70%
of normal healthy cats have pasteurella in their mouths. It easily spreads
from cat saliva to human bloodstream which can be achieved from your
having chapped lips or from getting bitten by a cat. It is likely spread
direct to lungs from sneezing cats as well. Fever following a cat bite
requires immediate & aggressive medical attention or kiss your arse
goodbye.
12) Yersinia pestis & other Yersinia spp. Think bubonic plague. It can be
spread by cat bites and cat fleas.
13) Pneumonic plague. Also bubonic, i.e., your worst nightmare of
sickness: septic disease, meningitis, coma & death. A case reported in the
American southwest which was fatal to the human was traced to cat.
Public parks in California have been shut down because of infected
feril cats.
14) Poxvirus. Though in some cases the cats may actually have gotten it
from their owner, a typical case would be the cat gets it from harrassing
infected squirrels then carries it home to its people.
15) Q-fever pneumonia (Coxiella burnetii) is carried to humans from
parturient cats or cats exposed to ticks. A spore form exists, closely
related to Legionaires disease, & can be carried just by breathing in the
vicinity of infected animals, even from contaminated fur. It's nasty.
Outbreaks have occurred throughout the US and Australia, everywhere
really. It can become chronic & in the elderly can result in death.
16) Rickettsia felis passed to humans from cat fleas. Think Typhus.
*17) Campylobacter jejuni and Campylobacter enteritis. C. jejuni is
similar to Salmonella but twice as bad & easily mistaken for appendicitis.
It is a growing health problem throughout the world & cases in some
regions exceed those for Salmonella. It spreads very easily from catbox to
human; cats fed raw meats will be most likely to spread it; & even just
handling raw meat then not washing your hands before you eat an apple
could do it as it's very contageous. The disease manifests as C. enteritis
when it infects the small intestin & is one of the chief diseases
generically known as "traveller's diarrhea" inducing the phrase "don't
drink the water." But you'd also have to not eat the eggs, cheese, milk,
or poultry -- nor let your kitty eat them.
*18) Salmonella spp., very common, typically spread by cat stool with the
litterbox being the source of human sickness, & the majority of cats fed
raw meat or which have access to roadkill or which capture wild birds (&
mostly sick birds are apt to be caught). Salmonelosis does not
frequently kill but severe cases certainly can do so, especially in the
elderly, & one form, Salmonella typhi, does commonly kill.
Of the commonor household variety thought of as "food poisoning"
there are as many as four million cases a year in the US alone. Cattle,
pigs, poultry, & household pets are common sources of infection.
*19) Leptospira spp. Frequently carried to people from livestock, but also
from pet cats. Common throughout the world but typically misdiagnosed or
generically diagnosed as "flu" though it is not the flu & it can kill. It
spreads easily through urine; dogs & cats, livestock, & wild animals are
all frequent sources. Though pets may in some cases get it from their
people rather than other way around, it would be more typical for the pet
to have contacted an infected rodent or its urine & then pass it on to
people.
20) Trichinellosis is a parastic worm. Cats get it from eating raw game of
almost any sort (probably shared raw with the cat by the "man of the
house" who is proud to have killed something in the woods). Everyone knows
it's carried by raw pork but it is also to be found in fox, dog, wolf,
horse, seal, walrus, bear & other game animals; you're at risk if you eat
any of these things undercooked. And there are incidents of humans getting
it from eating infected cats! So don't eat your cat.
*21) Ringworms, probably the most common infection acquired from cats;
many cats are asymptomatic & infect a great many neighborhood children
without ever being suspected.
22) Psittacosis, can spread to humans from common chlamydial eye and
respiratory infections in cats, though this would require the cat to have
had dangerous exposure to infected hardbilled birds before it could carry
anything to its people. Best known as "parrot disease" it causes pneumonia
& death in humans. Because of protections more for the poultry industry
than for humans or pets, Psittacosis is mostly under control in the US.
*23) Roundworms. Not uncommonly spread to humans, especially children, via
roundworm eggs passed in stool, meaning the catbox is the usual culprit,
though children can get it from direct facial contact with the cat.
*24) Toxoplasmosis, a coccidia that can cause birth defects in unborn
babies. It spreads to humans via eggs (typically in the catbox) & cats
that are fed raw meat are apt to be carriers. Pets are the second main
cause of Toxoplasmosis-caused human birth-defect, the greater risk comes
from humans eating raw or undercooked meat themselves. This is a much,
much worse disease risk from feeding raw meats than is Salmonella because
Salmonella recovery is more certain, but I asterisked this one less
readily because in absolute numbers it is not so high as Salmonella caught
from pets. Both diseases, however, would justify INSISTING people NOT feed
their cats raw meat because it puts humans, even unborn humans, at risk of
permanent injury. To the list of irresponsible behaviors of pregnant
women (smoking & boozing & mainlining heroin) has been
added cat ownership.
*25) Cryptosporidium's oocysts spread to humans (& to other cats) via the
catbox but Cryptosporidium is also spread from direct contact with the cat
(or any exposed pet). Cats may get this parasite merely from drinking
water outside, as it is common even in wholesome watersheds. It is one of
the "emerging diseases" in the United States that is getting worse each
year. It induces copious spewing of watery diarrhea, fun huh. It is is
life-threatening in immunocompromised humans.
26) Canine coronavirus does not spread from dogs to people but one
preliminary study suggests it may spread from dogs to cats then to people.
It may go undiagnosed as anything but a bad cold.
27) Dermatophytes (skin funguses).
* 28) Bartonella henselae. Can cause severe disease. The
infection has resulted in the amputations of human limbs,
encephalitic brain damage, & death. Though more
commonly the fever passes quickly without long term
effect, chronic fever disease is not unknown, contracted
just from cat bites or scratches.
For all these reasons & others, there are many standard warnings that
pregnant women, anyone with an artificial heart valve, & immunocompromised
people, not be exposed to cats at all.
Thalocean2
is spread all over farms in many states is first spun to remove the heavy
metals. It's a natural part of humans, dogs, cats etc. waste and when it's
concetrated to one small area, (your garden) the heavy metals can and do build
up to toxic levels. Do a quick search and look at all the court case documents
where farmers are sueing because their fields are ruined.
I disagree that herbivore feces contains nearly the amount heavy metals that
carnivore feces contains. This is taught to first year ag and biology
students.
Laura B.
(who's keeping the dog, cat, human crap out of her garden so she doesn't get
brain damage as well)
--"If heavy metals were a problem in your cat & dog feces, it would be from
something in the immediate environment, & their heavy metals would
possibly match those of all the people in --the same environment."
Karen Fletcher
: ka...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
:>
:>...It's *not* the same and and never should be used on a vegetable
:> garden...unless of course, you'd like a nice dose of ecoli
:> (a single gram of dog feces can contain 23 million coliform bacteria),
:> roundworm...[etc... snip]
: I guess we're all doomed, since there's no way to keep the local
: omnivores/carnivore (e.g. raccoons) population from defecating in our
: gardens.
: The above argument applies only to root crops and crops which have
: contact with the soil. Bacteria/microorganisms do not travel through the
: plants' vascular system to the fruit.
This isn't relevant. If soil is contaminated, any part of plant can also
become contaminated through rain splash or human handling. In parts of
the world where human wastes are still used to fertilize crops, bacillary
dysentery is endemic. There's a reason travellers to those regions are
advised to wash their vegetables and fruits thoroughly with bleach water.
: Just to start a parallel thread, the real problem with ecoli etc is the
: overuse of bactericidal soaps etc. "In the old days" people would
: occasionally get sick from such things but they weren't really bad and
: people built up natural defenses/immunities.
And which old days were those? Well into the early 1900s, people,
especially the very young and the sickly, died in significant numbers from
a very common diarrheal malady called 'summer sickness'. Sanitation of
human and animal wastes was poor, food handling practices were unsafe, and
there was no modern fly control.
If you want to 'recycle' dog waste safely, get a Doggie Dooley. Don't put
it on your compost pile.
-- Karen
The Garden Gate http://garden-gate.prairienet.org
=====================================================================
"No occupation is so delightful to me as the culture of the earth, no
culture comparable to that of the garden ... But though an old man,
I am but a young gardener." -- Thomas Jefferson, Garden Book, 1811
=====================================================================
On the Web since 1994 Forbes Best of Web 2002
paghat
thalo...@aol.com (Thalocean2) wrote:
> Yes, it is a problem with human waste as well. That's why the human
waste that
> is spread all over farms in many states is first spun to remove the heavy
> metals. It's a natural part of humans, dogs, cats etc. waste and when it's
> concetrated to one small area, (your garden) the heavy metals can and do build
> up to toxic levels. Do a quick search and look at all the court case
documents
> where farmers are sueing because their fields are ruined.
>
> I disagree that herbivore feces contains nearly the amount heavy metals that
> carnivore feces contains. This is taught to first year ag and biology
> students.
>
> Laura B.
> (who's keeping the dog, cat, human crap out of her garden so she doesn't get
> brain damage as well)
Provide citations. If it's a first year ag thing then you should have
fifty at hand, pick two that are least suspect. This must be done when
there's a risk of bullshit being composted on Usenet, so I will do
likewise. I've read scores of articles (many peer-reviewed) & never seen
any that stated carnivore poo is a heavy metals problem distinct from any
other poo. The primary sources are always listed. I will repeat them, with
some citations. If the one you would cite instead, "carnivore poo," has
even the junior high school first year biology citation you allege, should
be easy to list by author & date so that the rest of us can extend our
knowledge too, supposing we're not already braindead that is. Because the
literature I've seen when comparing, say, hog manure to chicken manure
finds chicken manure to be a huge source of heavy metals, but hog manures
have much less\
Primary sources of heavy metals in garden composts:
Pesticides [plus #1 source of dangerous organic pollutants]
[Tuft & Nichols. Poultry Science 70, 1991]
Feeds that enter into farm manures
[Sims & Wolf. Adv. Agron. 52, 1994. Van der Watt et al. J. Environmental
Qual, 1994.]
Poultry & livestock feeds which metals & metalloids As, Co, Cu, Fe, Mn,
Se, Zn -- much of it intentionally fed to them to increase egg production.
[Tuft & Nichols. Poultry Science 70, 1991]
Farmyard manure, mineral-fertilisers, & atmospheric precipitation
[Kranert & Fruth. Proceedings of Composting 2002 Symposium, Ohio State Univ]
Farmyard manure
[Reinhoffer et al. Proceedings of Composting 2002 Symposium, Ohio State Univ]
MUNICIPLE sludge & treated sewage sometimes goes into commercial composts
& while these are not in garden composts, they can enter gardens by
purchasing commercial compost products. All of the above are also sources
of heavy metals in municiple sludge & sewer-based composts, but the
primary source is a bit different:
1. Industrial waste
2.Consumer products
[Barker & Bryson, Scientific World Journal 2, 2002]
It is difficult to oversimplify because different heavy metals come from
wildly different sources. According to the Cornell University Solid Waste
& Compost Fact Sheet, the foremost source of Cadmium in solid waste &
compost is tobacco ash. Cadmium is absorbed especially well in mushrooms.
Mushrooms can thus be a source of cadmium in diet if grown in contaminated
composts, or in mushroom composts per se. But the original source even in
municiple waste is smokers. Every metal has a different story -- none of
which, it turns out, have anything special to do with carnivore poo.
Further, why farmyard manure is the most cited after pesticides &
fertilizers as the origin of heavy metals in composts, with chickens feeds
being the foremost source followed by cattle, even these are in great part
actually pesticide & fertilizer in origin, except the extravagant
pollutants from chicken manures which are heavy metals intentionally fed
to chickens.
Although kennel wastes go into municiple sludge for composts, no article
even hints that this is a source of heavy metals. Although Zoo Doo
programs nationwide compost herbivore & carnivore waste together, research
continues to indict chicken manure composts formost.
The great number of (misguided) compost experts who do not approve of
including dog & cat feces in composts use the (in great part irrational)
fear of toxoplasma as the reason -- NOT this trumped up heavy metal
argument. Toxoplasma is a red herring because kissing your dog or cat or
letting them poop ANYwhere is the actual threat & no compost worker has
EVER been documented to have contracted roundworms from compost. Heavy
metal is an even bigger red herring since each metal has a different story
about its first-source & how it gets into sewage waste &/or into composts,
& no study I can locate even hints that carnivors have anything whatsoever
to do with it, though chicken feeds & fertilizers & pesticides &
industrial wastes are mentioned repeatedly.
So if this is "first year biology" info you've shared, I strongly suggest
your junior high school biology teacher misled you. If among the thousands
of ACTUAL scientific reports on these issues you can find the rare one
about carnivore poo I will certainly read it & extend my knowledge. But
fairly obviously it's awfully far down the list of possible sources for
heavy metal contaminants since the major ones are well-documented in
scientific journals while the dumbass stuff about the extra dangers posed
by carnivore poo seems to be found chiefly among editorialists who did no
studies at all, & have no sources for their allegations.
The comical thing is, of course, IF there were any truth to the silly
notion that cats & dogs waste is a major source of heavy metal pollutants,
the only thing that could be done about it is to kill all the bloody
little bastards & let them go extinct. Because whether you throw their
turds in the garbage so that they go to landfills, down the toilet so they
end up municiple waste, or leave them in the lawn to break down naturally
then discard or compost the clippings, it all ends up ultimately in the
same environment. Fortunately, this is one dread that even the paranoids
among us can shunt aside, & worry a bit more (if you must worry about
something) about what is being fed to the chickens.
-paghat
Dwight Sipler
>
> Yes, it is a problem with human waste as well. That's why the human waste that
> is spread all over farms in many states is first spun to remove the heavy
> metals. It's a natural part of humans, dogs, cats etc. waste and when it's
> concetrated to one small area, (your garden) the heavy metals can and do build
> up to toxic levels. Do a quick search and look at all the court case documents
I assume that by human waste, you mean sewage sludge, since the
collection of human waste is basically only done at sewage treatment
plants (except for a very few outback places that still use privies).
The occurrence of heavy metals from sewage sludge is not necessarily
related to heavy metals in human waste. The heavy metals in the sewage
comes from people's practice of dumping everything down the drain in
addition to human waste.
Moreover, the availability of animal waste in large quantities (thank
you McDonalds and Col. Sanders) would render the collection of human
waste not economically feasible on a large scale outside of the sewage
treatment plants.
I have never heard of anyone spinning human waste before applying it to
fields, and I don't believe that spinning or centrifuging sewage sludge
containing heavy metals would separate them out. This process would be
extremely expensive and time consuming since the sludge would have to be
liquefied so that the heavier particles would be mobile enough in the
soup that they could settle out. The centrifuging equipment would be
costly and the same result could be obtained by letting the liquid
settle for an extended period of time. I am open to any references you
might be able to supply for this practice.
Dwight Sipler
>
>...If you want to 'recycle' dog waste safely, get a Doggie Dooley. Don't put
> it on your compost pile...
I'm not familiar with that item (not having a dog). Can you describe its
function more precisely? What does it do to/with the dog waste?
Thalocean2
>fields, and I don't believe that spinning or centrifuging sewage sludge
>containing heavy metals would separate them out.
Karen Fletcher
Your thirst for knowledge on the subject of dog waste disposal is
admirable, all the more so for being curiosity in the abstract. Try a
search for "Doggie Dooley" on Google.
Helpfully,
Karen
The Garden Gate http://garden-gate.prairienet.org
===================================================================
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need."
^and cats -- Cicero
paghat
<dsi...@haystack.mit.edu> wrote:
> I assume that by human waste, you mean sewage sludge, since the
> collection of human waste is basically only done at sewage treatment
> plants (except for a very few outback places that still use privies).
> The occurrence of heavy metals from sewage sludge is not necessarily
> related to heavy metals in human waste. The heavy metals in the sewage
> comes from people's practice of dumping everything down the drain in
> addition to human waste.
>
> Moreover, the availability of animal waste in large quantities (thank
> you McDonalds and Col. Sanders) would render the collection of human
> waste not economically feasible on a large scale outside of the sewage
> treatment plants.
>
> I have never heard of anyone spinning human waste before applying it to
> fields, and I don't believe that spinning or centrifuging sewage sludge
> containing heavy metals would separate them out. This process would be
> extremely expensive and time consuming since the sludge would have to be
> liquefied so that the heavier particles would be mobile enough in the
> soup that they could settle out. The centrifuging equipment would be
> costly and the same result could be obtained by letting the liquid
> settle for an extended period of time. I am open to any references you
> might be able to supply for this practice.
The problem of heavy metals in municiple waste & sludge is monitored &
ameleorated by several methods. Citizens should be on top of it lest
government decide to do it badly during money-crunch times. Often the
organic pollutants are very easy to remove; the heavy metal components are
more expensive to get rid of & any really polluted municiple wastes should
be rejected for compost purposes. Still & all, any attempt to key the
source of heavy metals in municiple sludge & waste to carnivores & pets is
so absurd it outdoes the usual level of superstitious horror of cat & dog
poo. The problem has to be nipped at the ACTUAL key sources of industrial
waste, flushed consumer products, fertilizers, pesticides, & machine
pollutants (chiefly automobiles).
Dwight Sipler
>
> ... Try a
> search for "Doggie Dooley" on Google...
Having done so, I find
http://www.uniquedistributors.com/doggiedooley.html. For the benefit of
other newsgroup lurkers, this site describes a "Doggie Dooley Toilet"
which appears to me to be a container which you bury in the ground, into
which you place the pet waste. It is described as a pet septic system,
although the website includes the caveat "units may not function
properly when ground temperature reaches 40 degrees or less". I looked
at only one model, which had a height of 15 inches (or a depth of 15
inches when buried). Operation, as described, is (paraphrased): insert
waste, add water and "digester powder" and close up. The "digester
powder" is described as an all natural mix of bacteria and enzymes.
Probably similar to the stuff you can buy to speed up your compost pile,
although it is likely tailored to the C/N ratio of pet waste.
I wouldn't describe it as a septic system. It's more like a cesspool. It
has to drain (since you add water), so the solids are basically
composted and the liquid filters out into the soil. This explains why it
may not work at low temperatures (i.e. when the ground freezes). I
suspect that here in New England, where the soil sometimes freezes to a
depth of 2 feet, the system would be only seasonally useful.
What strikes me is that this is am unnecessary solution. Everyone who
has indoor plumbing has a way to dispose of pet waste that is better
than this one. For one thing, your toilet works in the winter (I should
hope). For another thing, your toilet doesn't contribute to groundwater
pollution, at least to the extent that your own septic system (or
municipal waste treatment plant) is working properly. The only real
disadvantage to using your toilet is that you have to carry the stuff
through the house. However, most pet owners have some sort of litter box
so the pet waste is in the house anyway.
Dwight Sipler
>
> >[ref: spinning human waste before applying it to
> >fields]
>
> http://www.apfn.org/apfn/waste.htm
Thanks for the reference. It does refer to sewage sludge and states "At
the state-of-the-art West Point Treatment Plant in Seattle, raw sewage
is digested, heated and spun, until it's just right for shipment to the
fields." The article goes on to say that there is some concern being
expressed by Cornell University researchers and describes problems
arising from the practice and in particular from the actions of one
farmer.
A quick check on Google for <"heavy metal" sludge spin> yielded a large
number of references to rock bands or political spin on sludge
questions. I found no other reference to (physically) spinning the
sludge, although I did not look at all 1000 listed links due to lack of
time.
I would point out that the purpose of spinning is not specified in the
article. I suspect that the purpose is to separate the liquid and solid
components (not necessarily the organic and heavy metal components)
since the stuff that is spread on fields is the solid component. The
liquid component is probably 99% water, and adds weight to the sludge,
so they want to dry it as much as possible before paying someone to
truck it somewhere.
For the record, I am *not* in favor of using sewage sludge on
food-producing land. The reason is that I consider the material
inadequately controlled, particularly in the heavy metal category.
However, I believe that the heavy metals in sewage sludge come from our
hands, not from some other part of our anatomy. It's the other stuff we
put down the drain that is the problem.