animal cruelty--keeping cats out of garden
newsgroup
column featured several of
her readers' suggestions on "how to keep cats out of your flowerbed."
Included in the printed suggestions, which
she described as "both informative and amusing," were setting out
mousetraps and painting the offending cat's
rectum with turpentine. One reader even gloated over an incident where he
"took [his] bb gun and waited for the cat
to come around. . . and shot the damned thing dead.". Although a few
"humane" suggestions were offered, they
received little print space compared to the cruel tactics touted by her
less humane readers.
WHAT YOU CAN DO: Please write Ann Landers and tell her that these cruel cat
control options should NEVER
have been given any print space, as they encourage people to engage in
cruel behavior. Remind her that there is a
strong connection between the abuse of animals and violent behavior toward
other people (see our HSUS website:
www.hsus.org/current/strike.html) Write to: Ann Landers; P.O. Box 11562;
Chicago, IL 60611-0562 or write to her
through her website at:
http://www.creators.com/lifestyle/write.php4?ContentId=25.
THANK YOU FOR MAKING A DIFFERENCE FOR ANIMALS --- TODAY!!
For more information on legislation, how to find your legislators, or past
, go to www.hsus.org or www.fund.org
THANKS FOR MAKING A DIFFERENCE FOR ANIMALS--TODAY!
For more information on legislation, how to find your legislators,
and past HUMANElines, visit http://www.hsus.org or http://www.fund.org
Jacklyn Marie Osgood
motion sensor, and when an animal goes beyond the acceptable area, they will be
surprised and frightened off by the sudden watering. Just a weird and relatively
humane thought to aleviate any animal problem :-)
Jacki
Dan S wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:47:57 GMT, "A. M. Hawk Widner"
> <amhw...@home.net> wrote:
>
> >Thanks - you saved me the trouble. Nothing like some fool taking things out
> >of context just to support their pet cause, hmm? Got enough of that going
> >around already. The complete column sets the record straight: Ann Landers
> >may be a senile old bat (insert friendly emoticon here), but she has never
> >and never will support cruelty to animals.
>
> Cats can be dangerous if doing their business in vegetable or fruit
> areas. I hate to gross people out, but to express the danger,
> yesterdayt I saw a worm hanging from the local cats', ahem, business
> area. It was quickly killed (the worm), but remember these are going
> straight into the dirt wherever they leave their mark. Administer
> wormer applications and keep cats OUT. They can eat anything, from
> bugs and frogs to disease-infested mice and chipmunks. The disease
> might not be so bad for rodents, but could seriously sicken larger
> mammals.
>
> Another recommendation I didnt read was applying thorns to a specific
> area. Cat gets thorn, stops walking around the area. Person removes
> thorn, becomes cats best friend :)
>
> Dan
Stinky
Dear Readers: The hot topic this week is how to keep cats out of your flower bed. "Cat-astrophe in
Tennessee" is the one who started this lively exchange, and the responses have been both informative
and amusing.
Bruce H. in Shamokin, Pa., suggested mothballs as a "sure cure." He said this will not harm the
cats, but will make their lives temporarily unpleasant, and they will not return. Emil M. of Des
Moines, Wash., wrote in with the same suggestion.
Jean K. from Ft. Worth, Texas, shared her "top secret" with us -- citrus peelings. Lemon, grapefruit
or orange peels placed in various spots in the flower bed will guarantee no more feline invasions.
Dozens of others suggested this, also.
"Constant Reader J.L." from Turlock, Calif., said she used her grandmother's solution -- a can of
red pepper spray. She wrote, "It worked like magic. After two days, there wasn't a cat to be seen.
They are fast learners." A reader in New Brunswick, N.J., concurred, saying the cats will lick their
paws after touching the pepper spray, and will not want to experience that awful taste again. Here's
more:
From Eureka, Calif.: After two seasons of having my flower beds ruined by stray cats, I decided to
use draconian measures. It was either the cats or my sanity. I set a couple of small mouse traps in
my garden, and "caught" two tomcats. When I heard the yowls, I came out and freed them. They were no
worse for the experience, and never returned to the scene of the crime.
Casper, Wyo.: To keep cats out of your flower beds, take a mayonnaise jar filled with water, and
place it in the soil. If the flower bed is large, it could take two or three jars. Place the jars
down flat on their sides. Cats do not like to see their own reflection, and when they encounter the
jars, they will leave and not return.
Lakeland, Fla.: Get several Popsicle sticks (about 4 or 5 inches long), and push them into the
ground, leaving only 2 or 3 inches exposed. The invading cats cannot sit or dig in the dirt, so they
just leave.
Billings, Mont.: Cover the ground with pine cones. Cats hate them, and will not come back. I
guarantee it.
Vista, Calif.: Please inform your readers of a 100 percent fail-safe solution to the cat problem.
Buy some cheap screening material, cut it into squares, and place it all around the area. Cover with
dirt. The invading cats will get their claws caught in the screens. They will eventually free
themselves, but they'll hate the experience, and will not return.
Dallas: The woman with the flower bed problem should purchase a bottle of turpentine, a paintbrush
and a bag of cedar chips. She should then place a light covering of cedar chips in the flower bed.
When the cat comes by, she should capture the animal, lift its tail, and paint the exposed area with
turpentine. She should then sprinkle a small amount of turpentine on the cedar chips. This will not
harm the animal, but that cat will avoid the odor of turpentine for the duration of its life.
Bolivar, Mo.: I hate cats. They are sneaky and arrogant, and have no sense of loyalty whatsoever.
They ruined my peony bushes, and killed several songbirds that I loved. When I found the last bird
dead at my doorstep, I took my BB gun and waited for the cat to come around. Before long, it showed
up, and I shot the damned thing dead. I never had any trouble with cats after that. They must have
quite an effective network. I know you won't print this, but I'm writing, anyway.
Dear Bolivar: You did not need to kill that cat. Any of the alternative solutions that appeared in
today's column would have solved the problem. You should be ashamed of yourself.
"newsgroup" <bla...@jps.net> wrote in message news:ReKg5.5338$mt6.2...@nntp3.onemain.com...
A. M. Hawk Widner
of context just to support their pet cause, hmm? Got enough of that going
around already. The complete column sets the record straight: Ann Landers
may be a senile old bat (insert friendly emoticon here), but she has never
and never will support cruelty to animals.
Hawk
--
"Vanity! Everything is vanity - say, I *am* a handsome fellow!"
--King Solomon (paraphrased)
Stinky <mrs...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8m0aqm$gkt$1...@news.panix.com...
Dan S
<amhw...@home.net> wrote:
>Thanks - you saved me the trouble. Nothing like some fool taking things out
>of context just to support their pet cause, hmm? Got enough of that going
>around already. The complete column sets the record straight: Ann Landers
>may be a senile old bat (insert friendly emoticon here), but she has never
>and never will support cruelty to animals.
Cats can be dangerous if doing their business in vegetable or fruit
Dewitt
deg
On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:47:57 GMT, "A. M. Hawk Widner"
<amhw...@home.net> wrote:
>Thanks - you saved me the trouble. Nothing like some fool taking things out
>of context just to support their pet cause, hmm? Got enough of that going
>around already. The complete column sets the record straight: Ann Landers
>may be a senile old bat (insert friendly emoticon here), but she has never
>and never will support cruelty to animals.
>
>Hawk
Rob & Molly
> areas. I hate to gross people out, but to express the danger,
> yesterdayt I saw a worm hanging from the local cats', ahem, business
> area. It was quickly killed (the worm), but remember these are going
> straight into the dirt wherever they leave their mark. Administer
> wormer applications and keep cats OUT. They can eat anything, from
> bugs and frogs to disease-infested mice and chipmunks. The disease
> might not be so bad for rodents, but could seriously sicken larger
> mammals.
Yuck! I knew there was another reason why our two cats are indoors only
- besides the very important one of protecting their own safety.
Molly K.
--
"Quondo Omni Flunkus Mortati (When All Else Fails, Play Dead)" -- Red
Green, The New Red Green Show -- http://www.pbs.org/redgreen/
------------------------------
Our home page: http://www.ior.com/~rdklug/
Judith
Why not fill up a few 1-2 litre pop bottles with water and scatter them over
the site that needs protection? For some strange reason, this really does work
and cats will avoid the area. I know - I've done it to stop my two mystic
moggies going near certain parts of the garden!
Another way is to scatter any citrus peel over the area - cats absolutely HATE
the smell and will avoid it like the plague.
Do not add bleach to the area as a deterrent. Cats LOVE the smell, but it is
poisonous to them.
As suggested, I shall be visiting Ms Landers' site and, yes, I will be emailing
her at some point to make my feelings known!
Judith Rayner
Alan Zelhart
at home. This is why cats should be indoor animals, and the only time they are
let out, is if they are on a leash. If an owner really and truely loves there
cat, this is how they will take care of it.
alan
newsgroup
around outside all the time as did their ancestors. But I'm sure they had a
shorter life span too.
newsgroup
cats indoors. I would fear for my cats if they were out and not able to get
in when they might need to. I have found that the German shepherd next door
learned how to jump the fence and took off after a cat and after that I am
leery of letting them out unless I am out there too.
> Mine sure did. She did not like being inside, so we let her go out when
> she wanted. One day she played in the road too long. She's lily
> fertilizer today.
>
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:57:28 -0700, in rec.gardens
> "newsgroup" <bla...@jps.net> wrote in
> <x7qh5.6095$1V.5...@nntp1.onemain.com>:
e...@nickennui.net
"J. Ot
> and the Princess of Tasmania
> doesn't really know where she lives.
>
David Jensen
J. Otto Tennant
>Actually, the person was cruel, is the person who did not keep the cat confined
>at home. This is why cats should be indoor animals, and the only time they are
>let out, is if they are on a leash. If an owner really and truely loves there
>cat, this is how they will take care of it.
>alan
Alan, I do not completely agree with you.
My current three cats are kept indoors: Magnificat doesn't want to go outdoors;
Hyperbole could not find his way back if he escaped; and the Princess of Tasmania
doesn't really know where she lives.
In a prior life, though, Lorenzo would not remain inside. He is my ex-cat: I
lost custody in the aftermath of a divorce. He ruled the neighborhood, and he
had many homes, although mine was the primary one. He would have been extremely
unhappy if he did not have chipmunks in his diet; and he looked longingly at
the birds taking off from the airport. The occasional sparrow was not a
subsitute for a 747.
Even though my ex-wife took his balls and his front claws, he was the
Top Cat. He could go up and down trees, and he would accompany me as
I walked the dog. If one of us took a wrong turn, I would hear him
yowling, but a word from me would gain his attention and he would
rejoin us.
Unfortunately, another cat contemporaneous with Lorenzo, ought not
to have been an outdoor cat. Jazzbo would flush chipmunks, only
to see Lorenzo get dinner. Jazzbo was not especially bright, and
had a fatal interaction with an automobile. But Jazzbo *loved*
being outside. Lorenzo, on our walks, mostly followed his own
interests. Jazzbo was the Cheshire Cat: he would be ahead of
us, and look down from a tree. When we passed him, he would
rush ahead to the next tree.
If I were in a neighborhood less dangerous, I'd let my
cats out. Lorenzo would go to the local school bus stop,
to be petted by the children. Jazzbo was a bit too shy
for that, but he had his places too.
A neighborhood cat, like Lorenzo, is a civilizing influence.
--
J.Otto Tennant jo...@pobox.com
Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit.
Charter Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
rr...@lanminds.com
wrote:
>
>A neighborhood cat, like Lorenzo, is a civilizing influence.
>--
>J.Otto Tennant jo...@pobox.com
It's not a "civilizing influence" to everyone. To people who don't
want cats in their garden, or staking out their birdfeeders, or who
just don't like cats, they are nothing but pests. When I grew up, I
lived in a pretty average, middle-class neighborhood. We had a
free-roaming cat. He came back shot twice (bb guns) and poisoned
once. So it's obvious that not everyone loved him, even though none
of the people in the area seemed like the kind to shoot cats. Also, I
have no idea if he was deliberately poisoned, or accidentally. So, if
he had died from that, it would have been entirely my fault for not
keeping an eye on him and what he was getting into. You can't ask
everyone else in the neighborhood to make things safe for your pet.
That's your responsibility.
Rebecca
Scott R.
three stay indoors all the time. Not only are the dogs and wild animals
a problem that will hurt them, but there are some BIG tom cats out
there. D'Artagnan is almost 20 lbs and I still won't let him out since
he's such a big wuss. I think it's a cat owners responsibility to their
pets to keep them same and in most cases (except maybe out in the
country or down on the farm) that means keeping them inside.
Scott R
Alan Zelhart
teenagers duct tape it to the freeway and watch a car plow into it, or when the cat
is mauled by a pack of dogs (which also should not be running loose). Tell me then
how fine this animal is, and how much you loved it, so much so, that you let it fall
prey to one of the above.
alan
"J. Otto Tennant" wrote:
> A neighborhood cat, like Lorenzo, is a civilizing influence.
> --
> J.Otto Tennant jo...@pobox.com
> Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit.
> Charter Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
--
Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
R. Alan Zelhart
CAD Software Asset Management
2100 East Elliot Road; Mail Drop EL714
Tempe, Arizona 85284
Sunset Zone: 13 - Metro Phoenix
Work Phone: (480) 413-3470
Home Phone: (480) 699-3977
Cell Phone: (602) 692-4037
Pager: (888) 996-9501
Fax: (480) 413-5723
"You can't create a reputation you haven't earned"
--Robert W. Galvin
lin...@mindspring.com
The only one that "escaped" -- my 20 pound Siamese male -- was totally lost
and came back (actually I had to find him in the bushes a few blocks away)
a few pounds lighter, torn up and totally terrorized.
We have 4 cats now, Mollie, Scoot, Mosby and PK. Only Mollie will try to go
out (she's way too bold) but she stays by the house and we've found her quickly
each escape. One time after 2 hours of me panicking over her, we found her at
the front door, yowling to get in!
linda t
florida
Scott R.
not from personal experience.
Scott R.
Alan Zelhart
experience. I was trying to make a point on how important it is to keep our pets,
all of them, protected!
alan
rr...@lanminds.com
some city... Phoenix? Flagstaff? Something like that.
Rebecca
J. Otto Tennant
[... There is a problem formatting ...]
>Tell me this when you find that cat splattered on a freeway, or when some evil
>teenagers duct tape it to the freeway and watch a car plow into it, or when the cat
>is mauled by a pack of dogs (which also should not be running loose). Tell me then
>how fine this animal is, and how much you loved it, so much so, that you let it fall
>prey to one of the above.
Well, alan, when Lorenzo was out too late, of a thunderstorm or
of a snowstorm, I would tell my ex-step-children that he had
been found by medical students and that they would next see
him in their biology class.
Lorenzo terrorized the neighborhood dogs, and did a fine job
keeping the racoons away. He had a problem with one of the
neighborhood cats, but he won in spite of his lack of balls
and claws.
And Lorenzo really liked the taste of chipmunks.
And the kids in the neighborhood really liked Lorenzo.
I do recognize differences in cats and in neighborhoods.
The cats who live with me now (Hyperbole, Magnificat, and
the Princess of Tasmania) are not allowed outside; the
neighborhood is not safe for cats, and Hyperbole is not
bright enough to find his way home.
But I am not the least bit sorry that I let Lorenzo
be a outdoor cat.
>alan
Alan Zelhart
hit. There have also been instances of kittens and cats set on fire, and I don't care
to think any farther than this. This is why I get so upset when I hear that people let
there cats run loose.
alan
rr...@lanminds.com wrote:
> Actually, I seem to recall something like this happening out around
> some city... Phoenix? Flagstaff? Something like that.
>
> Rebecca
>
> On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:26:00 -0700, Alan Zelhart
> <rpc...@email.sps.mot.com> wrote:
>
> >No, not from personal experience, and I hope it never happens, from personal
> >experience. I was trying to make a point on how important it is to keep our pets,
> >all of them, protected!
> >
> >alan
> >
> >"Scott R." wrote:
> >
> >> I don't even want to know that thought came into your head. Hopefully
> >> not from personal experience.
> >>
> >> Scott R.
> >>
> >> Alan Zelhart wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Tell me this when you find that cat splattered on a freeway, or when some evil
> >> > teenagers duct tape it to the freeway and watch a car plow into it,
> >
> >
> >
--
veruca
V.
In article <39827879...@t-one.net>, osg...@t-one.net wrote:
> Another thing I just thought of is those sprinkler hoses. Have it set up on a
> motion sensor, and when an animal goes beyond the acceptable area, they
will be
> surprised and frightened off by the sudden watering. Just a weird and
relatively
> humane thought to aleviate any animal problem :-)
> Jacki
>
> Dan S wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:47:57 GMT, "A. M. Hawk Widner"
> > <amhw...@home.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Thanks - you saved me the trouble. Nothing like some fool taking
things out
> > >of context just to support their pet cause, hmm? Got enough of that going
> > >around already. The complete column sets the record straight: Ann Landers
> > >may be a senile old bat (insert friendly emoticon here), but she has never
> > >and never will support cruelty to animals.
> >
> > Cats can be dangerous if doing their business in vegetable or fruit
> > areas. I hate to gross people out, but to express the danger,
> > yesterdayt I saw a worm hanging from the local cats', ahem, business
> > area. It was quickly killed (the worm), but remember these are going
> > straight into the dirt wherever they leave their mark. Administer
> > wormer applications and keep cats OUT. They can eat anything, from
> > bugs and frogs to disease-infested mice and chipmunks. The disease
> > might not be so bad for rodents, but could seriously sicken larger
> > mammals.
> >
David Ross
>
> ANN LANDERS PUBLICIZES ANIMAL CRUELTY: Last week, Ann Landers' weekly
> column featured several of
> her readers' suggestions on "how to keep cats out of your flowerbed."
> Included in the printed suggestions, which
> she described as "both informative and amusing," were setting out
> mousetraps and painting the offending cat's
> rectum with turpentine. One reader even gloated over an incident where he
> "took [his] bb gun and waited for the cat
> to come around. . . and shot the damned thing dead.".
You obviously did not read the entire Ann Landers column, which
appears in another response to this message. Ann most definitely
did take the BB shooter to task, condemning his cruelty. Thus,
you owe Ann an apology.
While some humans are indeed cruel and even kill cats, cat owners
who allow their animals to wander the neighborhood are equally
cruel. You see, where I live coyotes, large owls, and even eagles
are effective in controlling cats. Perhaps even the rattlesnakes
and mountain lions in the area kill a cat now and then. And no, I
don't live in some wilderness area; I'm in a suburb of houses,
condos, and apartments next to a city of approximately 110,000
people in an urban area of about 170,000.
If you truly love your cat, keep it in your own house. If you
allow your cat out to use my garden as a toilet, then the cat may
suffer a fate that YOU (not your cat) deserve.
--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 19 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a)
Gardening pages at <http://www.vcnet.com/~rossde/garden.html>
MelodyDawn
Jacklyn Marie Osgood <osg...@t-one.net> wrote in message
news:39827879...@t-one.net...
Falcon
this to say:
>Ever since I started watering my garden with my urine, the cats have kept away.
>It is just an observation nothing scientific.
>Perhaps it establishes my territory and they respect that.
>Give it a try and tell me if it works for you too.
A few thoughts on this...
1) I wonder, does it have to be your urine or would anyone's work?
2) Not all of us have that inbred trailer-trash mentality,
makes it more difficult for direct application. Any tips you care
to share? Second thought, I don't want to know. [Note to self:
Don't get a visual image...don't get a visual image]
3) The aroma on a warm summer day must be, um, powerful.
Your neighbors probably invite you to all their BBQs.
4) Very glad you did not attach pictures.
5) Must be a real conversation stopper when you mention this
at cocktail parties. Or, as the case may be, at the local
tavern where you are stocking up, "Hey, bartender! One more
for that persistent tom cat that has been coming around lately."
6) I think I'd rather have cats in the garden. By comparison
they seem a bit more civilized.
7) I suppose this can be considered an organic method as long
as you have not ingested any "interesting" chemicals.
8) Exactly how many beers does it take to get to the point
that you have the desire to urinate on your garden?
9) Have you experimented with "spray" vs. "watering" at the
ground/root area?
10) Does your stand at the local Farmers Market seem a lot
less patronized since you started using this technique?
Ciao,
Falcon
#####################################################################
################# To Reply: Cut all 7's from address ################
#####################################################################
## Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, ##
## and I'm not sure about the former. ##
## -Albert Einstein- ##
#####################################################################
Falcon
this to say:
>Pls read previous post again and again.
Nope, once was enough for me. In fact I could have led a very
happy life without reading it at all.
>You are narrow minded.
Nope, not at all. My mind is fine, it is yours that you should
question.
>There is nothing wrong with using urine if one is disease free.
>(hint, hint, hint).
Are you hinting that you would like a few jugs of my disease free
urine? Sorry, not my thing, you have to supply your own.
Falcon
had this to say:
>On Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:52:47 -0700, Falcon
><falc...@codenet7.net> wrote:
>
>>2) Not all of us have that inbred trailer-trash mentality,
>
>I've got the proper mentality, but wrong equipment. If I
>tried that I'd soak my sneakers.
Well hey, take your sneakers off and go for it. Just spread your
feet apart and watch for cactus when you squat. (Grin)
Yip Kok Lok
Yip Kok Lok
There is nothing wrong with using urine if one is disease free.
(hint, hint, hint).
> to share? Second thought, I don't want to know. [Note to self:
> Don't get a visual image...don't get a visual image]
Zhanataya
<falc...@codenet7.net> wrote:
>2) Not all of us have that inbred trailer-trash mentality,
I've got the proper mentality, but wrong equipment. If I
tried that I'd soak my sneakers.
Zhan
Paul Onstad
>
> Pls read previous post again and again.
> > 1) I wonder, does it have to be your urine or would anyone's work?
>
> You are narrow minded.
Indeed so. Marking one's territory is an effective deterrent against many
pests.
-Paul
Tim Lewis
odor if you use it lightly. Most pesty animals have a keen sense of smell
and it does not take much to ward them away. Just watch dogs mark their
yard. Not much is used and no odor. And, collecting the urnine can be done
indoors, although, a lot of us males seem to have a desire to "mark our
territory," usually under the cover of darkness. 8-O
Tim
"Falcon" <falc...@codenet7.net> wrote in message
news:hdikoso51afpd70i3...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:36:05 -0400, Zhanataya <zhan...@mindspring.com>
> had this to say:
>
RAHbert
Humans who allow their cats to roam freely are doing an injustice to the
Cat, who is then exposed to all the dangers of the "great outdoors".
--
Cheers,
BobH & Team Birman...
"DO! or Do NOT! - there is No TRY." - Jedi Master Yoda
phil.la...@windriver.com
> Humans who allow their cats to roam freely are doing an injustice to the
> Cat, who is then exposed to all the dangers of the "great outdoors".
Err.. has it escaped your notice that cats are (still) to a large
extent wild animals? Sure, they like curling up on the bottom of the
bed and being generally pampered (Slave! Where is my food?!).
But they are outdoor creatures by nature. Our three (and the 8 that my
parents and brothers have between them) all have access to the outdoors
and spend a good dwal of time outside during the summer.
I suspect that a cat allowed that freedom is a good deal more of a
well-adjusted cat than a housebound cat..
Phil.
--
===================================================
Phil Launchbury, Unix Sysadmin
Wind River Systems UK Ltd
phil.la...@windriver.com
e...@nickennui.net
That's your perception.
What they are used to dictates what they are happy with.
And it has been proven housecats are as well-adjusted,
or better, than outdoor cats.
Old wives tales, and emotions, are far different from fact.
phil.la...@windriver.com
>Actually, the person was cruel, is the person who did not keep the cat
>confined at home. This is why cats should be indoor animals, and the
>only time they are let out, is if they are on a leash. If an owner
>really and truely loves there cat, this is how they will take care of
>it.
Why? Do you lets your kids out only on a leash?
Phil
phil.la...@windriver.com
> We've had 9 cats over the last 30 years. NONE of them ever went out.
> The only one that "escaped" -- my 20 pound Siamese male -- was totally lost
> and came back (actually I had to find him in the bushes a few blocks away)
> a few pounds lighter, torn up and totally terrorized.
Possibly because he had never learnt how to deal with the outside world
because you kept him in? It's like saying 'I won't let my kid out of
the 5 foot closet that I keep him in because he is frightened by all
the space!
Phil.
phil.la...@windriver.com
> Tell me this when you find that cat splattered on a freeway, or when some evil
Cats come (generally) in two categories: Those who can cope with
traffic and those who can't. Of all the cats I have lived with in my
life (about 20!) none have been killed on a road despite the fact that
we have lived on some busy roads.
It does happen - but then accidents happen to people too. Does that
mean we should produce emotionally stunted people by stopping them
doing *anything* potentially dangerous? Of course not.
> how fine this animal is, and how much you loved it, so much so, that you let it fall
> prey to one of the above.
Or you could just let it turn into a neurotic overweight kitten (which
is what most house-bound cats turn into).
Harrisons
pets. Coyotes which are making a strong comeback here are having lunch on
cats and small dogs. The problem is worsened by the very real possibility of
rabies. Remember this when you let your housecat out. Eugenia, zone 6, two
towns west of Boston
<phil.la...@windriver.com> wrote in message
news:8n0o45$h68$1...@faringdon.swindon.wrsec.fr...
SkunkyCat
talk to children about traffic and can tell if they understand
what you are saying. Cats on the otherhand often learn
the hard way. I have never moved a child off the street
but have moved about 20 cats off the street in my life time.
I also fail to see where keeping a cat inside equates to
making people emotionally stunted. But I suppose
there is some convoluted logic there somewhere connecting
the two.
Rod
phil.la...@windriver.com
> Cats are not people or even children. You can at least
No - bu they are (reasonably) intelligent creatures who are
(understandably) afraid of traffic. Most cats that are allowed to learn
about traffic early on never become statistics. Especially if there are
older cats in the household who are traffic-aware.
> I also fail to see where keeping a cat inside equates to
> making people emotionally stunted. But I suppose
> there is some convoluted logic there somewhere connecting
There is. Ever read anything about cat psycology? A cat in the company
of its owners in in a subservient/kitten mode. A cat permanently with
its owner stays in that mode *permanently*. Not a good thing for its
mental or social development.
Cats outside (on the other hand) are allowed to develop a full adult
mentality.
Rechelle Blair
Don't go making comments like that that you can't back up. "Housebound" cats,
as you put it, are very well adjusted and are much healthier than cats allowed
access to the outdoors. It's not my opinion, it's fact. Cats are so far from
being wild animals that most wouldn't know how to survive outside. I know my
3 certainly wouldn't.
~Rechelle
phil.la...@windriver.com wrote:
> RAHbert <CAS...@iname.com> wrote:
>
> > Humans who allow their cats to roam freely are doing an injustice to the
> > Cat, who is then exposed to all the dangers of the "great outdoors".
>
> Err.. has it escaped your notice that cats are (still) to a large
> extent wild animals? Sure, they like curling up on the bottom of the
> bed and being generally pampered (Slave! Where is my food?!).
>
> But they are outdoor creatures by nature. Our three (and the 8 that my
> parents and brothers have between them) all have access to the outdoors
> and spend a good dwal of time outside during the summer.
>
> I suspect that a cat allowed that freedom is a good deal more of a
> well-adjusted cat than a housebound cat..
>
Rechelle Blair
neurotic? I have 3 house cats, not one of them is fat. I have a 17 almost 18 year old
and 2 that just turned 1 in the past few months. Not one of them is fat. One of them is
20 lbs and still not a single bit of fat on him. Proof to what you're saying Phil, or
shut up.
phil.la...@windriver.com wrote:
> Alan Zelhart <rpc...@email.sps.mot.com> wrote:
> > Tell me this when you find that cat splattered on a freeway, or when some evil
>
> Cats come (generally) in two categories: Those who can cope with
> traffic and those who can't. Of all the cats I have lived with in my
> life (about 20!) none have been killed on a road despite the fact that
> we have lived on some busy roads.
> It does happen - but then accidents happen to people too. Does that
> mean we should produce emotionally stunted people by stopping them
> doing *anything* potentially dangerous? Of course not.
>
> > how fine this animal is, and how much you loved it, so much so, that you let it fall
> > prey to one of the above.
>
> Or you could just let it turn into a neurotic overweight kitten (which
> is what most house-bound cats turn into).
>
Michele Mauro
they wouldn't turn their nose up at a cat (or small child
unfortunately). And there are black bears, and coyotes and foxes and
raccoons and skunks and cars and trucks and too many diseases out there,
none of which are healthy for pets. And animals they might munch on
could have rabies or other disease.
And lets not forget the crazy neighbors who like to leave antifreeze or
rat bait out for your pets.
Just my 2¢ worth, Michele
--
.
"Harrisons" <harriso...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:8n0rp3$g7$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Lately some of the ritziest Boston suburbs have a new problem with
their
> pets. Coyotes which are making a strong comeback here are having lunch
on
> cats and small dogs. The problem is worsened by the very real
possibility of
> rabies. Remember this when you let your housecat out. Eugenia, zone 6,
two
> towns west of Boston
> <phil.la...@windriver.com> wrote in message
> news:8n0o45$h68$1...@faringdon.swindon.wrsec.fr...
phil.la...@windriver.com
> Phil,
> Don't go making comments like that that you can't back up. "Housebound" cats,
Who says that I can't back it up? Maybe not in your experience. But
here in the UK outdoor cats are the norm and those kept indoor are very
much not. Those indoor cats I have known are generally not as complete
(personality-wise) as UK-normal cats.
> as you put it, are very well adjusted and are much healthier than cats allowed
Who said anything about health? But since you are on that:
Cats like to eat grass. Cats like to sharpen thier claws (and mark
their territory). Is more healthy for them to be able to do this
outside rather than inside? Sure it is. Cats need to exercise and to
use the facilities designed into them (stalking, hunting, hiding etc).
Is it better for them to do this in an outdoor context? Sure it is -
this is after all what they are designed for.
> access to the outdoors. It's not my opinion, it's fact. Cats are so far from
> being wild animals that most wouldn't know how to survive outside. I know my
Yeah right 'most wouldn't know how to survive outside'. Where on earth
did you get this from?
I have only ever met one cat in my life that was incapable of looking
after itself outside. And that one had been kept housebound all its
life. And if cats are not still wild creatures at heart, how can you
account for the fact that feral cats (after a generation or so) show
all the attributes of a wild cat (fear of humans, predation patterns
and group social patterns) rather than those of a 'domesticated' cat?
And if most of them couldn't survive outside there would not be a feral
cat problem in most western cities..
> 3 certainly wouldn't.
Probably because you have never given them the chance? Are they
declawed by any chance? (which, BTW is illegal )and rightly so) here in
the UK..)
Cheers,
phil.la...@windriver.com
> Again Phil, put up or shut up. Can you prove that housebound cats are all overweight &
So you think it healthy that a cat (who in its normal state has a
territory (even females) that is several hundred square yards) is
cooped up into an area of vastly less than that?
> neurotic? I have 3 house cats, not one of them is fat. I have a 17 almost 18 year old
Then I would suggest you know how to look after cats. But you
experience may not be shared by others. The majority of house bound
cats I have met are just what I said - developmentally stunted (ie not
out of the kitten mode) overweight (through lack of exercise) ones.
YMMV.
> and 2 that just turned 1 in the past few months. Not one of them is fat. One of them is
> 20 lbs and still not a single bit of fat on him. Proof to what you're saying Phil, or
Yeah right. 20lbs and no fat. Pull the other one. At that rate, it
ought to be a caracal or a serval, not felis domesticus!
> shut up.
I can only go on what I have observed and what I know of cat psycology.
As far as I am aware there have been very few studies of this other
than by people like Desmond Morris.
Helen
> they wouldn't turn their nose up at a cat (or small child
> unfortunately). And there are black bears, and coyotes and foxes and
> raccoons and skunks and cars and trucks and too many diseases out there,
> none of which are healthy for pets. And animals they might munch on
> could have rabies or other disease.
> on
> > cats and small dogs. The problem is worsened by the very real
> possibility of
> > rabies. Remember this when you let your housecat out.
I don't agree with Phil's comments - my housecats get plenty of
socialisation with three cats and two dogs in the house, and are all fit
and well-adjusted. But you Americans assume that everyone has similar
problems to yourselves - there are no bears, coyotes, alligators, skunks,
raccoons or rabid foxes in the UK, and we are mercifully short on mad
cat-poisoners and gunmen as well (although you do get a few) - this is a
global newsgroup, and US specific problems simply do not apply to everyone
that reads and posts to it - don't assume that Phil is being needlessly
reckless for ignoring non-existant threats to his cats.
Helen
lisaviolet
Michele Mauro wrote:
>
> And here in Florida, alligators prefer dogs for dinner, and I'm sure
> they wouldn't turn their nose up at a cat (or small child
> unfortunately). And there are black bears, and coyotes and foxes and
> raccoons and skunks and cars and trucks and too many diseases out there,
> none of which are healthy for pets. And animals they might munch on
> could have rabies or other disease.
>
> And lets not forget the crazy neighbors who like to leave antifreeze or
> rat bait out for your pets.
>
> Just my 2¢ worth, Michele
> --
Well, we don't have the bahr's here, but we have the other predators and
we also have hawks to contend with. I've heard many stories of hawks
flying into windows after cats they see sitting inside.
(Gee, it's kind of nice living someplace where all of the *wild* hasn't
been pushed to extinction, ya know?)
We used to let our cats free roam and one day Bobby
<http://www.lisaviolet.com/cathouse/bobby.html> was laying in our
driveway and somebody's Akita got loose and ripped bobby's leg off.
Then, five days before Christmas another year, our youngest, Holly,
<http://www.lisaviolet.com/cathouse/holly.html> got into the wrong yard
and a dog broke her back. I can still see clearly, her trying to climb
the fence to come back into our yard. *sigh*
Needless to say, they are no longer free range, but they can go into our
backyard during the day. The fence is modified so that they can't leave
our yard. Besides not getting killed or maimed, they also no longer
bother the neighbors (echoes of "if I catch the motherf*cker in my
garage again, I'll kill him"...."excuse me, but do you mind rolling your
car windows up? One of our cats likes to get into cars and mark
territory"...)
Now, in the future we're going to be moving to a place a lot wilder than
here. I flat out told hubby, after the realtor warned us that the hawks
like small pets (his neighbor's Schnauzer was picked up and taken off by
one) that the cats wouldn't be outside to become dinner for some hawk,
has come up with a way to keep the cats safe from predators from all
sides. He's going to build a giant enclosure. He figures it will cost
at least $10,000.00, but I don't care. Our cats are worth it. Luckily,
we're in areas where we *can* do this type of stuff without getting
notices that we're violating the CC&R.
I can't understand why those in the UK are so quick to judge the
lifestyles of the cats and their owners here in the US. I don't agree
with declawing and if it's safe for the cat to be outside, I don't have
a problem with it. But there is no way in hell our cats will ever roam
free again. They can roam our property, but not anyone else's.
And lest the gentleman from England says that people in the UK are very
tolerant of cats shitting in strange gardens, from posts here on these
newsgroups, it certainly would not appear to be true. Many people, not
just in the US, consider cats pests. Not all predators have four legs.
lisaviolet~~proprietor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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the best little cathouse in cyberspace
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Jim Shaffer, Jr.
>There is. Ever read anything about cat psycology? A cat in the company
>of its owners in in a subservient/kitten mode. A cat permanently with
>its owner stays in that mode *permanently*.
I know that.
> Not a good thing for its
>mental or social development.
Huh? We're talking about cats, not people.
>Cats outside (on the other hand) are allowed to develop a full adult
>mentality.
Including fighting, indiscriminate mating, and generally raising hell.
--
"I am not an Anarchist in *your* sense of the word :
your brain is too dense for any known explosive to affect it."
--Aleister Crowley
Rechelle Blair
phil.la...@windriver.com wrote:
> Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
> > Phil,
>
> > Don't go making comments like that that you can't back up. "Housebound" cats,
>
> Who says that I can't back it up? Maybe not in your experience. But
> here in the UK outdoor cats are the norm and those kept indoor are very
> much not. Those indoor cats I have known are generally not as complete
> (personality-wise) as UK-normal cats.
You know what? 1 of our cats used to be an indoor/outdoor cat. She is now
*terrified* of going outside! She much prefers to be inside and cowers whenever the
door is opened. Nothing happened to her when she was outside, she just doesn't like
it. Another 1 of ours used to be a stray. Again, she cowers when the door is
opened. She has no interest in the outdoors whatsoever. The 3rd one of ours will
*only* go outside *if* I am right there with him otherwise he is scared to death of
the outdoors. Huh, they all play, scratch their scratching posts, eat their grass,
eat their food and all wonderfully loving & healthy cats.
>
>
> > as you put it, are very well adjusted and are much healthier than cats allowed
>
> Who said anything about health? But since you are on that:
> Cats like to eat grass. Cats like to sharpen thier claws (and mark
> their territory). Is more healthy for them to be able to do this
> outside rather than inside? Sure it is. Cats need to exercise and to
> use the facilities designed into them (stalking, hunting, hiding etc).
> Is it better for them to do this in an outdoor context? Sure it is -
> this is after all what they are designed for.
Our 3 manage to do all this very well in our home! I have 3 pots of cat grass
throughout the apartment. They all manage quite effectively to stalk each other and
we have several scratching posts/pads for them. As for territory marking, our 3
don't do that because all of them are spayed/neutered.
>
>
> > access to the outdoors. It's not my opinion, it's fact. Cats are so far from
> > being wild animals that most wouldn't know how to survive outside. I know my
>
> Yeah right 'most wouldn't know how to survive outside'. Where on earth
> did you get this from?
> I have only ever met one cat in my life that was incapable of looking
> after itself outside. And that one had been kept housebound all its
> life. And if cats are not still wild creatures at heart, how can you
> account for the fact that feral cats (after a generation or so) show
> all the attributes of a wild cat (fear of humans, predation patterns
> and group social patterns) rather than those of a 'domesticated' cat?
>
> And if most of them couldn't survive outside there would not be a feral
> cat problem in most western cities..
If cats were so wonderful at surviving outside, there wouldn't be a problem with
cats being run over, being beaten by kids, poisoned by idiots or other problems.
Sorry but I don't buy for one minute that cats are wild at heart.
>
>
> > 3 certainly wouldn't.
>
> Probably because you have never given them the chance? Are they
> declawed by any chance? (which, BTW is illegal )and rightly so) here in
> the UK..)
All 3 of my cats are fully clawed!! If you would have done some snooping before
bursting in here, you would see that I am very much against the declawing of cats!
Don't EVER make assumptions about me!
~~Rechelle
>
>
> Cheers,
> Phil.
Rechelle Blair
make any assumptions about my cat and whether or not he is fat!
My guess is you don't know much about psychology Phil. You're sig file shows that you are a
SysAdmin, that doesn't require any knowledge of psychology whatsoever. You are an idiot.
Again, I have never met a housecat that was neurotic or unhealthy. I have met some that are
fat, yes, but most housecats that I have ever met aren't. It depends on the owner and what
they feed. I have seen just as many fat outdoor cats.
~Rechelle
phil.la...@windriver.com wrote:
Alley Cat
>
> And it has been proven housecats are as well-adjusted,
> or better, than outdoor cats.
I'm interested, can you post the references for your sources on that
statement please? You might be right, but I'd like to know on what you
base the claim.
> Old wives tales, and emotions, are far different from fact.
They certainly are, which is why you need to cite references if you're
going to make statements like that.
Alley Cat
rr...@lanminds.com
<spamc...@lisaviolet.com> wrote:
>Now, in the future we're going to be moving to a place a lot wilder than
>here. I flat out told hubby, after the realtor warned us that the hawks
>like small pets (his neighbor's Schnauzer was picked up and taken off by
>one) that the cats wouldn't be outside to become dinner for some hawk,
>has come up with a way to keep the cats safe from predators from all
>sides. He's going to build a giant enclosure. He figures it will cost
>at least $10,000.00, but I don't care. Our cats are worth it. Luckily,
>we're in areas where we *can* do this type of stuff without getting
>notices that we're violating the CC&R.
>
Take a look at www.just4cats.com. It's a site with plans for a
modular system. May make things easier.
Rebecca
lisaviolet
rr...@lanminds.com wrote:
>
> Take a look at www.just4cats.com. It's a site with plans for a
> modular system. May make things easier.
>
> Rebecca
We're talking huge. Telephone poles with chainlink fencing type of
thing. The entire yard (well we have 80 acres up there....we only have
1/3 of an acre here and they will have much more room to play when we
move). More like something you'd see at the zoo. He wants the cats to
have a lot of room, yet not end up some predator's meal.
Thanks for the link, what that guy has done looks pretty good.
jdc
> > And it has been proven housecats are as well-adjusted,
> > or better, than outdoor cats.
>
> I'm interested, can you post the references for your sources on that
> statement please? You might be right, but I'd like to know on what you
> base the claim.
I would suggest "The Cat Who Cried for Help"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553378546/o/qid=966027964/sr=2-3/102
-2884739-0363359
jdcxxx
wxill
lisaviolet wrote:
>
> rr...@lanminds.com wrote:
> >
>
> > Take a look at www.just4cats.com. It's a site with plans for a
> > modular system. May make things easier.
> >
> > Rebecca
>
(snip)
He wants the cats to
> have a lot of room, yet not end up some predator's meal.
>
> Thanks for the link, what that guy has done looks pretty good.
>
> lisaviolet~~proprietor
When planning your cat paradise, remember that predators come from
above as well as on the ground. We had a cat nearly taken by an owl
once. Fortunately, the cat was just a bit too much for the bird and
he was wounded, but not seriously injured. Make sure your cats have
plenty of cover.
Anne
Azion
"domesticated". Lions, tigers, cheetahs etc are "outdoor" creatures by
nature. I do agree that domesticated cats have a lot of thoe "big cat"
instincts, but being allowed to run freely outdoors is just asking for
troubles.
> I suspect that a cat allowed that freedom is a good deal more of a
well-adjusted cat than a housebound cat..
This I believe is total bull. I could say the same thing about indoor cats.
I know my two indorr cats love people and will come up anyone who is new
into our home. My neighbor, on the other hand, who lets his cat run around
at night, will not let anyone approach him, even his owner or the people
that live with them.
And if you do get close enough to pet him, he hisses at you.
I think any cat will become "adjusted" to pretty much any environment you
put them in.
I don't have the reference for this just yet but I think the following stats
are probably pretty accurate.
The life expectancy of an outdoor cat
If left outdoors all the time 1 to 3 years.
If left outdoors during evening hours 2 to 4 years
If left outdoors during daylight hours 4 to 6 years
An indoor only cat has a life expectancy of 12-15 years.
Here in San Diego, an outdoor cat has the average life expectancy of 1 to 3
years regardless of the duration or time of day let outdoors. We just had a
women lose a 16 week old kitten to a bird of prey(not sure exactly which
species) when she set the kitten in a box on her second story balcony.
We had another family who had just moved here from the San Francisco are
with there cat. Their cat was 6-7 years old and had been allowed to run
outdoors in their home. The family was warned about letting their cat run
outdoors here, but they didn't listen. Three days after arriving they lost
their cat to a coyote.
If you really love your cat, love him enough to give him a good clean, safe
and happy home...and keep him in it.
Robert
Ann
>Who says that I can't back it up? Maybe not in your experience. But
>here in the UK outdoor cats are the norm and those kept indoor are very
>much not. Those indoor cats I have known are generally not as complete
>(personality-wise) as UK-normal cats.
I generally stay out of indoor/outdoor cat issues because it's just
too inflamatory. I have grown up with and had probably 30 cats in my
life. Most of them were outdoor/indoor kitties, who came and went as
they pleased. Some we inherited, some came as strays. All were
happy, well adjusted cats. While living at my mom's house, we NEVER
had a cat killed in the road. It was a quiet, safe country lane.
Some disappeared, for whatever reason, probably to predators, but just
as likely to another home. There were a few cats who really enjoyed
being indoors, preferred it, actually, but most were 50/50. Some
wouldn't come in the house at all, unless the weather was very foul.
Then there was Wild Harry who wouldn't go in a house at all <G>.
When I moved into my own home, we got two kitties. They only lasted
two years on the street we live on, both were killed *within a week*
of each other :o/ I vowed never to have an outdoor kitty again. We
had two more kitties, one of whom lasted 18 years (the other died at 9
of a kidney ailment). We buried Barney two years ago. He was an
indoor cat, he got out twice, and was terrified by the experience. He
was, however, a very happy cat, from all we could tell. He never
tried to get out, once he went out an open window and couldn't get
back in, another time he heard a noise in the garage (it was a skunk.
He ran back into the house faster than my husband did!)
Now I have Evan, a stray who came to live with us last August. Evan
is an outdoor cat. He might stay in for a night (again if it's foul
out, although he's just as likely to stay out), but he's been an
outdoor cat his whole 3 years. I would be better off putting him to
sleep than try to keep him in, he loves the outdoors. I continue to
let him live as he pleases fully realizing he might get eaten by a
coyote, hit by a car, sprayed by a skunk, or kill birds in the area.
I'm not thrilled with it, but it's the way it is. I've fed birds in
my yard for 21 years, I've stopped until Evan is no longer with us.
If and when that happens, and we get another cat, it will be a kitten,
who will not leave the house.
But saying a cat can't develop a complete personality because it's
kept indoors is not true, IME.
--
Ann, Gardening in Zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************
http://www.annzoid.com
Ann
>Including fighting, indiscriminate mating, and generally raising hell.
And those are *bad* things?? (sorry, couldn't resist) ;->
lisaviolet
wxill wrote:
>
> When planning your cat paradise, remember that predators come from
> above as well as on the ground. We had a cat nearly taken by an owl
> once. Fortunately, the cat was just a bit too much for the bird and
> he was wounded, but not seriously injured. Make sure your cats have
> plenty of cover.
> Anne
In the post that Rebecca was responding to:
>Now, in the future we're going to be moving to a place a lot wilder than
>here. I flat out told hubby, after the realtor warned us that the hawks
>like small pets (his neighbor's Schnauzer was picked up and taken off by
>one) that the cats wouldn't be outside to become dinner for some hawk,
>has come up with a way to keep the cats safe from predators from all
>sides. He's going to build a giant enclosure. He figures it will cost
>at least $10,000.00, but I don't care. Our cats are worth it. Luckily,
>we're in areas where we *can* do this type of stuff without getting
>notices that we're violating the CC&R.
>
--
Ann
>The life expectancy of an outdoor cat
>
>If left outdoors all the time 1 to 3 years.
>If left outdoors during evening hours 2 to 4 years
>If left outdoors during daylight hours 4 to 6 years
Those are nice statistics. Too bad they aren't true. I've known many
outdoor cats who've lived far longer than 6 years. You do your cause
far more damage by using statistics (also known as lies, damned lies,
and statistics) like these.
>
>An indoor only cat has a life expectancy of 12-15 years.
Again, I've known indoor cats who've lived far longer....and far
shorter.
SkunkyCat
breath some life into the alt.animals.felines (and other)
newgroups. You gotta love it!
Rod
http://home.att.net/~nethibeault/cats.htm
Ann <ann...@thecia.net> wrote in message
news:7039ps4i7sr22a3mh...@4ax.com...
> "Jim Shaffer, Jr." <jsha...@mail.csrlink.net> expounded:
>
> >Including fighting, indiscriminate mating, and generally raising hell.
>
> And those are *bad* things?? (sorry, couldn't resist) ;->
>
A. M. Hawk Widner
My exclusively indoors cats seem quite happy, and well-adjusted. Note I
said "Seem".
Keeping cats indoors, providing all their nessecities, petting and cuddling
them, traps them in an infantile state of mental and social development.
Because they are animals, with limited abilities of higher reasoning and
emotion, I really doubt that they know this - in fact we humans only know if
we are emotionally stunted in comparison to peers. Indoors cats have no
peers with which to compare themselves, even if they have (which I doubt)
the mental capacity to make such comparisons.
Describing either indoors or outdoors cats as "happier", or "more adjusted",
is a fun anthropomorphism; and frankly, since we are not able (no matter
what certain psychics and channelers say) to know what actually constitutes
"happiness" in the feline emotional structure, I don't see how feline
happiness can be assessed. I do know that, in general, an exclusively
indoors cat - except for occasional obesity when caretakers get careless -
is healthier and lives longer than a cat that spends time outside.
None of which has anything to do with "cruelty" employed in keeping cats out
of areas where their presence is not welcomed. If I had outdoors cats, and
my neighbor was upset with them digging in his garden, I would hope that
s/he would employ means to discourage them that were 1) not likely to do
injury 2) as painless as possible and 3) effective. In fact, in such a
situation, I would likely purchase for my neighbor a bit of electric
fencing, and assist said neighbor in the installation thereof. One brush
with the fence should be sufficient to discourage further undesireable
behavior in the neighbor's garden, without inflicting more than a fraction
of a second's pain, without doing any damage. And it is certainly
preferable to so annoying my neighbor that something *violent* is done about
the situation.
Now, there will no doubt be those who will produce studies, reasoning, and
so forth to refute pretty much everything I said above. To whom I say in
advance - in a rare display of my much-balyhooed "arrogance" - bite me. IN
this I *am* right, because I say so.
Enough with the cats.
Hawk
--
"...we have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself but
nature exposed to our method of questioning."
--Werner Heisenberg
A. M. Hawk Widner
I know a very dear woman who lived much less - and have known a few who
lived much longer? On *average*, an indoor cat lives longer than an outdoor
cat. I've known many people who lived to a ripe old age while smoking -
doesn't mean cigs are safe. Knew a woman had sex with a couple hundred
guys, never got pregnant never got any diseases from it. Doesn't make
promiscuity safe and make liars of those who cite statistics showing that
such a lifestyle is likely to have unwanted consequences.
Hawk
--
The Poet and the Painter casting shadows on the water
as the sun plays on the infantry returning from the sea.
The do-er and the thinker: no allowance for the other
as the failing light illuminates the mercenary's creed
-- Ian Anderson
Ann <ann...@thecia.net> wrote in message
news:3199psc024r7t6a1p...@4ax.com...
> "Azion" <thisa...@none.com> expounded:
>
> >The life expectancy of an outdoor cat
> >
> >If left outdoors all the time 1 to 3 years.
> >If left outdoors during evening hours 2 to 4 years
> >If left outdoors during daylight hours 4 to 6 years
>
> Those are nice statistics. Too bad they aren't true. I've known many
> outdoor cats who've lived far longer than 6 years. You do your cause
> far more damage by using statistics (also known as lies, damned lies,
> and statistics) like these.
> >
> >An indoor only cat has a life expectancy of 12-15 years.
>
> Again, I've known indoor cats who've lived far longer....and far
> shorter.
>
A. M. Hawk Widner
cross-posted until too late to stop the other posts.
Hawk
--
"Stop calling T-Rex extinct! Do you know how impossible it is for T-Rex to
get a drivers license when people think T-Rexes don't exist?"
James Copeland
a garden* really that much of a problem?
If it is, what are they digging for?
James...
Kiki
: guys, never got pregnant never got any diseases from it. Doesn't make
: promiscuity safe and make liars of those who cite statistics showing that
: such a lifestyle is likely to have unwanted consequences.
It does if they state statistics that include many things not pertinent to
the situation. Such as the statistic I've seen thrown around that outdoor
cats on average live to be 5 years old. That study includes stray cats and
purely outdoor cats and doesn't take at all any consideration between cats
living in an outdoors that doesn't have as many factors (where people live
changes in what is around), and one that is on a busy street with many
stray cats around or a neighborhood with a cat hater who would kill the
cat. Statistics can be warped to prove points and not really prove them
when you look at them.
My point here is that no one can tell some one they are putting their cat
in high danger by letting them outdoors without knowing what that person's
sitaution is. Yes, they are putting them in more danger than an indoor
cat, but they are also allowing that cat many new sensations and things to
be interested in. Not to mention that more danger doesn't necessarily
equate certain early death (I don't say certain death cause it is certain
that anything alive will eventually die). It's a balancing act. How
dangerous is it outdoors as compared to how much joy they might get from
it. How would my cat handle it? I agree, I have seen situations where I
think it is foolish the person is letting hte cat outside, but just cause
they let their cat outside isn't necessarily neglect.
Tigress
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Ann
>Just as a sidebar, and someone who does not own a cat, is a cat *digging up
>a garden* really that much of a problem?
If it annoys you, then yes it is. It's never bothered me much.
>
>If it is, what are they digging for?
To go to the bathroom.
Ann
>Um - ok. So it is a lie to say the average woman lives say, 85 years, since
>I know a very dear woman who lived much less - and have known a few who
>lived much longer? On *average*, an indoor cat lives longer than an outdoor
>cat. I've known many people who lived to a ripe old age while smoking -
>doesn't mean cigs are safe. Knew a woman had sex with a couple hundred
>guys, never got pregnant never got any diseases from it. Doesn't make
>promiscuity safe and make liars of those who cite statistics showing that
>such a lifestyle is likely to have unwanted consequences.
Hawk, it just isn't true. You said in your last post just because you
said so, you were right. Well, not only am I saying I'm right, but
I've seen proof time and time again. Would you like me to go out and
gather up all my family and friends who've also had long lived outdoor
cats and have them post? Perhaps it's the area one lives in. All I
know is that cats I've known who've gone outside have lasted far
longer than 6 years.
Generally speaking I hate generalizations.
wxill
lisaviolet wrote:
>
> wxill wrote:
>
> >
> > When planning your cat paradise, remember that predators come from
> > above as well as on the ground. We had a cat nearly taken by an owl
> > once. Fortunately, the cat was just a bit too much for the bird and
> > he was wounded, but not seriously injured. Make sure your cats have
> > plenty of cover.
> > Anne
>
> In the post that Rebecca was responding to:
>
> >Now, in the future we're going to be moving to a place a lot wilder than
> >here. I flat out told hubby, after the realtor warned us that the hawks
> >like small pets (his neighbor's Schnauzer was picked up and taken off by
> >one) that the cats wouldn't be outside to become dinner for some hawk,
> >has come up with a way to keep the cats safe from predators from all
> >sides. He's going to build a giant enclosure. He figures it will cost
> >at least $10,000.00, but I don't care. Our cats are worth it. Luckily,
> >we're in areas where we *can* do this type of stuff without getting
> >notices that we're violating the CC&R.
> >
>
> --
> lisaviolet~~proprietor
I missed the post about the hawk. It sounds like you've got it
all under control. Please let us know how you put together
the enclosure and how the cats are doing.
Anne
Judith
Ann wrote:
> "Azion" <thisa...@none.com> expounded:
>
> >The life expectancy of an outdoor cat
> >
> >If left outdoors all the time 1 to 3 years.
> >If left outdoors during evening hours 2 to 4 years
> >If left outdoors during daylight hours 4 to 6 years
IF the above is true, then how come my friend's cats all lived on until
their 20's? And how come my previous two were 16 years old when they died
last year? Both my friend's moggies and mine spent a great deal of time
exploring the great outdoors, Mine sometimes ended up having fisticuffs
with other moggies, but they still lived on to a good age. My friend now
has five cats: one aged about 10, one aged 4, and the 4 year-old's
offspring aged 2. I have two other cats, both aged 18 months. All seven
of our cats spend all day outside. Does that mean their life expectancy
will be greatly reduced?
>
>
> Those are nice statistics. Too bad they aren't true. I've known many
> outdoor cats who've lived far longer than 6 years. You do your cause
> far more damage by using statistics (also known as lies, damned lies,
> and statistics) like these.
> >
> >An indoor only cat has a life expectancy of 12-15 years.
>
> Again, I've known indoor cats who've lived far longer....and far
> shorter.
>
SkunkyCat
- to protect her cats from inbound hawks!
Rod:-))
wxill <wx...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:399551A5...@earthlink.net...
>
>
> lisaviolet wrote:
Kiki
: think it is foolish the person is letting hte cat outside, but just cause
: they let their cat outside isn't necessarily neglect.
Let me clarify this cause after reading this it looks like I said because
some one let their cat outdoors ina situation I would consider a bad one
doesn't mean they are neglecting their cat (I've seen a few people post
their situations and in that situation I would consider it neglect to let
the cat outside. For example the person with the blind cat who let it roam
around outdoors).
What that should say is there are people that the situation sounds to me
that it is foolish they are letting the cats outside. But just because
*someone* (not necessarily the foolish person) lets their cat outdoors,
they are not necessarily neglecting their cat by letting them outside.
e...@nickennui.net
The statistics are averages.
(And statistics do have a very valid place in the scheme of
all things -- to say, "all statistics are meaningless" is foolish.
Its common sense. If you let your cat out -- its chance.
It might get killed the first week, 2 years, 4 years or 10.
Many people don't want to take that chance.
The person blathering about indoor cats are emotional wrecks
and maladjusted etc is not right in the least. More than
9 out of 10 professionals would tell him that. He just wouldn't
bother to listen. Doesn't change what the truth is..
Ann wrote:
>
> "A. M. Hawk Widner" <amhw...@home.net> expounded:
>
> >Um - ok. So it is a lie to say the average woman lives say, 85 years, since
> >I know a very dear woman who lived much less - and have known a few who
> >lived much longer? On *average*, an indoor cat lives longer than an outdoor
> >cat. I've known many people who lived to a ripe old age while smoking -
> >doesn't mean cigs are safe. Knew a woman had sex with a couple hundred
> >guys, never got pregnant never got any diseases from it. Doesn't make
> >promiscuity safe and make liars of those who cite statistics showing that
> >such a lifestyle is likely to have unwanted consequences.
>
> Hawk, it just isn't true. You said in your last post just because you
> said so, you were right. Well, not only am I saying I'm right, but
> I've seen proof time and time again. Would you like me to go out and
> gather up all my family and friends who've also had long lived outdoor
> cats and have them post? Perhaps it's the area one lives in. All I
> know is that cats I've known who've gone outside have lasted far
> longer than 6 years.
>
> Generally speaking I hate generalizations.
>
Ann
>IF the above is true, then how come my friend's cats all lived on until
>their 20's? And how come my previous two were 16 years old when they died
>last year? Both my friend's moggies and mine spent a great deal of time
>exploring the great outdoors, Mine sometimes ended up having fisticuffs
>with other moggies, but they still lived on to a good age. My friend now
>has five cats: one aged about 10, one aged 4, and the 4 year-old's
>offspring aged 2. I have two other cats, both aged 18 months. All seven
>of our cats spend all day outside. Does that mean their life expectancy
>will be greatly reduced?
That is my whole point. Generalizing about all cats without taking
into consideration where the cat lives, what the conditions are around
them, or lumping them in with the poor feral abandonees who live life
outside after being someone's pet.....statistics lie when they're
loaded and twisted into whatever shape or form you want them to be.
Many of the cats I've known have lived to ripe old ages, some have
died younger, all have been in or out cats, but I grew up in a rural
area. Nowadays things aren't so rural, and there's coyotes to take
into consideration. As I've said in other posts, my cats (if acquired
as kittens) stay in, but my stray I've taken in goes out and takes him
chances. That's life, after all. Taking chances.
e...@nickennui.net
chances, much less for no reason.
To just say,,,,life is about taking chances is far too
simplistic, and as such not accurate at all.
Kiki
: Its common sense. If you let your cat out -- its chance.
: It might get killed the first week, 2 years, 4 years or 10.
But, the chance lessens are increases depending on where you live. Not
everywhere is the same. Not everywhere even has the same risks.
The point is statistics that take in all sorts of different circumstances
including strays (which don't get any vet care or vaccinations and don't
have anyone to feed or care for them) aren't going to show much about a
cat that might be taken in at night, live far away from a non busy street,
don't have many strays around (diseases and such), have pet friendly
neighbors, etc. The point is the statistics saying outdoor cats live an
average of 5-6 years is misleading cause it also includes cats that live
in the worst possible circumstances but people who cite this statistic
don't mention that. I've heard statistics that don't include strays and go
much higher (more like around 12 years). I've also heard for strays
themselves the life span tends to be around 2-4 years.
And no, I won't say indoor cats are totally maladjusted. I do think
outdoor cats probably live a more fulfilling life but I don't think that
makes the indoor life miserable, specially if the cat doesn't even know
what its missing. And for some cats, I would say they prefer the indoors.
But some cats find that the outdoors enriches their life. If the risk
isn't too bad, I don't see any problem with letting them experience it
(I'm not claiming there isn't a risk to them being outdoors, I am claiming
sometimes the added benefit is worht the risk though, depending on the
benefit and the risk).
The outdoors is nto the same everywhere.
And, statistics don't prove anything until you see what was taken into
account for them, and look at the wording. It's easy to say statistics
show that the average outdoor cat lives 5 years, but you gotta find out
what their definition of the outdoor cat is. Secondly, statistics don't
say what the cause is, they only prove correlation. They are not the end
all be all. They are just tools to help find the cause, but they don't
prove the cause.
rr...@lanminds.com
wrote:
>Just as a sidebar, and someone who does not own a cat, is a cat *digging up
>a garden* really that much of a problem?
>
>If it is, what are they digging for?
>
>James...
>
It depends on what you consider a problem. Cats dig in order to bury
their feces. If it's a vegetable garden, yes, many people consider
that a problem, since the cats can carry diseases and parasites.
Other people just don't like finding feces when they are out weeding.
Rebecca
Ann
>Life is about using sense, and not taking unnecessary
>chances, much less for no reason.
>
>To just say,,,,life is about taking chances is far too
>simplistic, and as such not accurate at all.
You live life your way, I'll live it mine. I'd rather have chance in
life than live totally safe, how boring that would ultimately be.
Azion
> But, the chance lessens are increases depending on where you live. Not
> everywhere is the same. Not everywhere even has the same risks.
This is why I got out of this argument. I live in San Diego. We probably
have the ighest concentration of wild animals right smack in the middle of
city population. Mostly we have Coyote's, but we have some wild cats
(mountain lions) and birds of prey. So a cat here has a signifacantly lower
chance of surviving outdoors than most areas.
Speaking of dangers to cats, I just a cat get killed by a car today. It had
a collar but no ID, so there was no way for us to call the owner..
This I hope *everyone* agrees with. If you are going to let your pet(s)
outdoors by all means put a collar on with a name and number. If something
does happen you will at least be notified.
Robert
Azion
I think I used up all my chances. Odds are not in my favor anymore. :-) Of
course, i don't have the advantage of "nine lives" either. :-)
Robert
"Ann" <ann...@thecia.net> wrote in message
news:8tgbps42u2ji1o6pc...@4ax.com...
lisaviolet
Kiki wrote:
>
>
> And no, I won't say indoor cats are totally maladjusted. I do think
> outdoor cats probably live a more fulfilling life but I don't think that
> makes the indoor life miserable, specially if the cat doesn't even know
> what its missing. And for some cats, I would say they prefer the indoors.
Right now, it's 96 degrees both inside and out. The fans are on inside,
the breeze is blowing outside. I would venture to say it's a little
nicer outside in the shade than inside under a fan. The doors are open
so that the cats can go out if they want. I just counted fifteen of our
twenty, inside.
e...@nickennui.net
>
>
> The point is
: Its common sense. If you let your cat out -- its chance.
> : It might get killed the first week, 2 years, 4 years or 10.
>
> And no, indoor cats are not maladjusted and
> outdoor cats do not live a more fulfilling life.
What you "think" is no substitute for what the professionals _know.
e...@nickennui.net
I did not write that.
Don't credit it to me.
e...@nickennui.net
Avoid making what you think an absolute statement on a subject,
and people won't state their own beliefs, or correct you.
Kiki
: Right now, it's 96 degrees both inside and out. The fans are on inside,
: the breeze is blowing outside. I would venture to say it's a little
: nicer outside in the shade than inside under a fan. The doors are open
: so that the cats can go out if they want. I just counted fifteen of our
: twenty, inside.
And there were times my cats, even the one who much prefered outdoors,
lvoed the indoors. I would have obliged them cept for my dad who wanted
them tos tay out more. I personally like the idea of having the litterbox
inside and letting them stay inside whent hey want, and go outside when
they want (if the outdoors is not too dangerous where I live and the cat
wuold do well... my current cat would *never* be an outdoor cat).
A. M. Hawk Widner
cars, larger predators (including dogs) irate neighbors with shotguns and
poisons, and other cats carrying diseases and parasites - all of which
caused premature demise of many of our beloved vermin patrol when I was a
youngster (in rural areas, small town, and an urban neighborhood) - I made
the error of intuiting that this particular statistic, which I have heard in
one form or another from a variety of so-called experts, including vets, had
some validity.
I acknowledge your correction and withdraw from debate.
Hawk
--
It's as well we tell no lie, to chase the face that cries...so I'll sing you
no lullaby.
--Ian Anderson
Ann <ann...@thecia.net> wrote in message
news:cgeapss5h0fkcchgm...@4ax.com...
Judith
lives as indoor moggies. The reason for that was because we lived in a flat
and, therefore, had no garden. They were far from miserable - they didn't know
any different. When we moved to a flat with a garden, we kept them indoors for
a further three months then gradually let them outside. They LOVED it. Bilbo
was a bit nervous at first, but he soon got used to it. Once they'd got the
taste for the Great Outdoors, they must've thought all their Christmases and
birthdays had come at once. Daft moggies? Yes, at times. Maladjusted
moggies? NEVER!
lisaviolet wrote:
> Kiki wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > And no, I won't say indoor cats are totally maladjusted. I do think
> > outdoor cats probably live a more fulfilling life but I don't think that
> > makes the indoor life miserable, specially if the cat doesn't even know
> > what its missing. And for some cats, I would say they prefer the indoors.
>
> Right now, it's 96 degrees both inside and out. The fans are on inside,
> the breeze is blowing outside. I would venture to say it's a little
> nicer outside in the shade than inside under a fan. The doors are open
> so that the cats can go out if they want. I just counted fifteen of our
> twenty, inside.
>
Judith
deceased) with those "tags", but they kept coming home without them! The two I
have now just wear flea collars and bells. I haven't got around to buying name
tags for them - yet.
Julie Spann
looking outside. I found nothing. Two weeks later I was trimming some
olive trees on the side of the house and found a small cat had missed
jumping up or down from the fence, probably by about a quarter of an inch.
The was hanging from it's collar. I was very sad, because they have
scan-able chips that can be put under the animals skin...so if they are
found they can be scanned and returned back to the owner. This cute little
Siamese cat was returned to the owner because it's collar didn't work well
with it's outdoor environment.
I keep my cats indoors, I live in a big city off a busy road. I read an
article once showing the different lives of well adjusted cats. I thought
the cutest one was of a cat in Manhattan that was taken outdoors for fresh
air in an old fashion baby stroller. It was all the cat knew and loved it.
Judith <judith...@which.net> wrote in message
news:39968ED2...@which.net...
rr...@lanminds.com
>In rec.pets.cats.misc lisaviolet <lisav...@catlover.com> wrote:
>
>: Right now, it's 96 degrees both inside and out. The fans are on inside,
>: the breeze is blowing outside. I would venture to say it's a little
>: nicer outside in the shade than inside under a fan. The doors are open
>: so that the cats can go out if they want. I just counted fifteen of our
>: twenty, inside.
>
>And there were times my cats, even the one who much prefered outdoors,
>lvoed the indoors. I would have obliged them cept for my dad who wanted
>them tos tay out more. I personally like the idea of having the litterbox
>inside and letting them stay inside whent hey want, and go outside when
>they want (if the outdoors is not too dangerous where I live and the cat
>wuold do well... my current cat would *never* be an outdoor cat).
>
>Tigress
>
How do you tell if the outdoors is too dangerous? If you have a
free-roaming cat, you don't know where it goes. You have no idea if a
neighbor 3 blocks away works on cars a lot, or if the cat is visiting
the construction site on the next block. You probably won't know that
there is a vicious dog that is being properly confined in a backyard
until your cat decides to go visit it. You won't know if your cat is
car-smart until it has a chance to deal with them. You won't know if
there is a neighbor out there that shoots cats until yours comes home
with pellets in it. And if there is someone who traps and dumps cats,
you won't know that either. You won't know if a coyote has just moved
into the area. You won't know if the neighbors 4 houses down just had
their lawn treated, or if they are baiting for rats.
I have no quarrel with people who let their cats out in their yards.
You can control the environment, you know what the dangers are, and
hopefully you have fixed anything really hazardous. But I have no
real idea what sort of hazards my neighbors have in their yards, and I
do not want to find out the hard way.
Rebecca
David Jensen
rr...@lanminds.com wrote in <3996dc92...@nntp.lanminds.com>:
>I have no quarrel with people who let their cats out in their yards.
>You can control the environment, you know what the dangers are, and
>hopefully you have fixed anything really hazardous. But I have no
>real idea what sort of hazards my neighbors have in their yards, and I
>do not want to find out the hard way.
Is it possible to keep a cat in your yard?
e...@nickennui.net
from getting over the top of the fence hence
they stay in their yards.
lisaviolet
phil.la...@windriver.com
> None of which has anything to do with "cruelty" employed in keeping cats out
> of areas where their presence is not welcomed. If I had outdoors cats, and
> my neighbor was upset with them digging in his garden, I would hope that
> s/he would employ means to discourage them that were 1) not likely to do
> injury 2) as painless as possible and 3) effective. In fact, in such a
I always recommend that they keep a water pistol to hand (filled with
water naturally!).
A squirt with that does not harm the cat but the cat dislikes it
intensely and will then (after a few repeats) keep away from that
garden...
> advance - in a rare display of my much-balyhooed "arrogance" - bite me. IN
> this I *am* right, because I say so.
Indeed!
Phil.
--
===================================================
Phil Launchbury, Unix Sysadmin
Wind River Systems UK Ltd
phil.la...@windriver.com
phil.la...@windriver.com
> Just as a sidebar, and someone who does not own a cat, is a cat *digging up
> a garden* really that much of a problem?
> If it is, what are they digging for?
It's more what they are burying that people object to.. especially
people who like to do gardening without gloves!
phil.la...@windriver.com
> Replies throughout
> phil.la...@windriver.com wrote:
>> Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>> > Phil,
>>
>> > Don't go making comments like that that you can't back up. "Housebound" cats,
>>
>> Who says that I can't back it up? Maybe not in your experience. But
>> here in the UK outdoor cats are the norm and those kept indoor are very
>> much not. Those indoor cats I have known are generally not as complete
>> (personality-wise) as UK-normal cats.
> You know what? 1 of our cats used to be an indoor/outdoor cat. She is now
> *terrified* of going outside! She much prefers to be inside and cowers whenever the
> door is opened. Nothing happened to her when she was outside, she just doesn't like
Why do you think this is? Did she have a bad experience while outside?
> *only* go outside *if* I am right there with him otherwise he is scared to death of
Hmm.. maybe there is a common denominator here? Do you show
fear-symptoms when they go outside? As senior cat(!), if you show fear
then they will pick up on that and display the same fear.
> we have several scratching posts/pads for them. As for territory marking, our 3
> don't do that because all of them are spayed/neutered.
I assure you that spaying and neutering does not stop territory
marking! All our cats have been 'done' but our male still (even at the
age of 11) does his round of his outside territory and marks it. As
does his sister (senior female).
> If cats were so wonderful at surviving outside, there wouldn't be a problem with
> cats being run over, being beaten by kids, poisoned by idiots or other problems.
That has nothing to do with being wild! Apply the same thing to
tigers.. they are wild right? But there is still a problem with them
being shot, trapped and killed for their fur. That does not stop them
being fully capable of surviving in the natural world.
> Sorry but I don't buy for one minute that cats are wild at heart.
You didn't answer my point. What you describe is not what I would call
'surviving in the wild'. It is surviving the stupidity and cruelty of
man. Very different - for example we have no-where near this problem
here in the UK. Maybe in the part of the US that you live the only
option is to keep the cat inside. But don't think that applies to the
rest of the world as well...
> All 3 of my cats are fully clawed!! If you would have done some snooping before
> bursting in here, you would see that I am very much against the declawing of cats!
> Don't EVER make assumptions about me!
Good. (And anyway - I lurked for a couple of days or so until I saw the
original 'you hate your cat if you let it outside' nonsense. That
triggered me to answer..)
The reason that I asked is that I know it is a prevalent fashion in the
US to have cats declawed. I'm very happy that you (rightly) consider
this a horrible thing to do.
phil.la...@windriver.com
> phil.la...@windriver.com expounded:
> If and when that happens, and we get another cat, it will be a kitten,
> who will not leave the house.
> But saying a cat can't develop a complete personality because it's
> kept indoors is not true, IME.
Despite the studies that show it is? *Shrug*. Your call..