Genetic Degradation
Meg
Hope you find some points of interest regarding the question of genetic
degradation.
*********
This is sure an interesting topic. I sure believe
there can be changes over time that can happen
genetically. Somaclonal variation from tissue culture
is a prime example. Through growing material in
tissue culture one can speed up genetic changes. For
instance people have complained that Stelle d'Oro
daylily has different strains because of this. Some
don't rebloom as profusely as others and they believe
this is due to somaclonal variation from tissue
culture. When I worked at the Forest Service, one of
the White Pine projects I worked on was to develop
efficient ways to propagate White Pine in tissue
culture (they are difficult to grow in culture) for
the purpose of stimulating variation to select for
those that are resistant to blister rust.
Somaclonal variation for roundup resistance in poplar
trees occurred at that lab before I came. They kept
slightly increasing the level of roundup in the media
and kept selecting cells that survived. In the end
they regenerated plantlets and had trees that they
could spray roundup over to kill the weeds, but not
the trees. This is unlike the roundup resistance in
agronomic crops now where they transform the crop with
genes from bacteria.
So somaclonal variation occurs in tissue culture for
sure. In corn Dr. Ron Phillips tracked what was
happening, and there were immense changes happening
cytogenetically even though many regenerated plantlets
visually seemed alike. He found a very high
percentage of methylation changes followed by
chromosome aberrations like breakage, translocations,
aneuploids....
Even though roses are not generally grown in tissue
culture these things are probably happening at a slow
rate in nature. For instance we only need to look at
the advice of rose growers not to bother with root
cuttings since there are often color variations to the
blooms... The reason for this is that the meristem
layers (three of them) are altered. In regular
meristems these three layers generally keep
perpetuating themselves. If one layer is different
from a mutation or something it can continue on
without the others being changed. The most dramatic
example I can think of is spider plant and
variegation. Some have variegation on the edge and
some in the middle of the leaves. This difference is
because of which layer lost its ability to make
chlorophyll. Well, back to the rose root example.
From the root cutting a new adventitious meristem is
made and all three layers essentially all start from
the root cortical cells. If I remember right this is
produced from Layer III of the regular meristem (this
is why root cuttings for thornless blackberries come
out thorny because only LI is mutated for
thornlessness). So if there were some differences in
the meristem layers in a rose, a root cutting derived
plant will be different in that all its layers will be
derived from what was in Layer III of the original
plant. Why don't rose growers and breeders take
advantage of this and increase rates of sports this
way?????
Potato breeders in Texas and Oregon look closely for
sports in their fields and have selections from Russet
Norkota that are better yielders.
Generally I think that there is more genetic changes
happening than we realize. Just because they aren't
always obvious to our naked eye doesn't mean they
don't occur. If anything researchers are learning
that genomes of organisms are more plastic and dynamic
than once thought.
Back to the issue of old rose cultivars like Peace
genetically degrading. As you know some have said
that virus may be the reason some older cultivars go
downhill. Malcolm M. cleans some up and there are
improvements. I think some cultivars are more prone
to genetic changes than others. For instance the
Grootendorsts, Ophelia, and Margo Koster sport more
than other roses and are more genetically unstable. I
think that it's possible for "degradation" to occur,
but it depends on the rose and how careful propagators
are to use the best propagation material. If
propagators were very careful to propagate only off of
the best plants, there could be improvement over time
instead of degradation, don't you think?
Today we talked about Dolly the sheep some. Even
though she's a clone, she's aging much faster than a
normal sheep. Cells and chromosomes may be programmed
for a certain life span and just by propagating and
starting over with a new clone may not totally reverse
that time clock. Could this be the case for cloned
plants to some degree too?
It seems like there are more questions than answers
sometimes.
zuni
ie " Why don't rose growers and breeders take
advantage of this and increase rates of sports this
"Meg" wrote in
Well, back to the rose root example.
>From the root cutting a new adventitious meristem is
>made and all three layers essentially all start from
>the root cortical cells. If I remember right this is
>produced from Layer III of the regular meristem (this
>is why root cuttings for thornless blackberries come
>out thorny because only LI is mutated for
>thornlessness). So if there were some differences in
>the meristem layers in a rose, a root cutting derived
>plant will be different in that all its layers will be
>derived from what was in Layer III of the original
>plant. Why don't rose growers and breeders take
>advantage of this and increase rates of sports this
>way?????
San Francisco Bay area, on the Carquinez Straits
Bill
Me...@stny.Lrun.com says...
>My young expert sent this to me this evening.
>Hope you find some points of interest regarding the question of genetic
>degradation.
>*********
cause degrading. But since the first efforts by Armstrongs
to produce tissue culture roses was dropped and many be
because the roses never did much. I have the first three
they did and one was Touch of Class, so I rooted 15 to see
if were as good as tissue or budded. My results was all
three of the tissue culture roses did very poor with small
blooms and never had a decent basal break. My rooted
cuttings did very good but not quite as good as my budded
ToC did. Since all or most all minis are cuttings rooted if
he is right then we should expect a lot of degrading or
sports in the minis, but so far I have never even seen a
sport in a mini or noticed any of the once in commerce that
are sports. We root a lot of minis and so far never a sport
from any of them.
I suspect that a rose like Peace that has a lot of named
sports may also do what some call degrade, but I think all
that is wrong with the present Peace on the market is that
they are all sports that just are not as good as the
original Peace. I have had a lot of sports on HTs and none
were worth trying to market, until last year got a white
sport on New Zealand but when looked into getting it taken
by a grower got the bad news that there was one already and
would be sold in 99 here as Full Sail.
Bill in Alhambra Calif.
whil...@mindspring.com
5:40:50 pm 12/2/1999
Dave Amorde
Bob Bauer wrote in message <38471255...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>Meg's young expert said:
>
>> If anything researchers are learning
>>that genomes of organisms are more plastic and dynamic
>>than once thought.
>
>record indicates that long term stability is the norm,
In a mixed set this is true, but we're talking about what is essentially a
single organism - as described later in Meg's post, the effects of aging
more closely describe "Genetic degradation."
-Dave-
Bob Bauer
> If anything researchers are learning
>that genomes of organisms are more plastic and dynamic
>than once thought.
The actual mechanisms may be plastic and dynamic, but the fossil
record indicates that long term stability is the norm, and that change
when it does come, comes rapidly, but only after long periods of
stability. This is the Theory of Puctuated Equilibrium in evolution.
The ABILITY to allow for rapid change, as you are showing in the
petri dish in the lab comes from both the physical selection of
specific population variations and selection of mutations by actual
cogent people. For this to occur in nature, you would have to have an
environmental selection factor that made the new mutation or variation
more survivable.
To boil down what I just said: maybe an uglier Peace rose survives
better than a beautiful one.
> If
>propagators were very careful to propagate only off of
>the best plants, there could be improvement over time
>instead of degradation, don't you think?
Given that clonal variation of genetic material can actually happen
naturally, this is true. But it is way easier to hybridize a bunch of
seeds, grow them and see which ones look best, than to stress over
variations in an existing plant. Also, minor variations are not what
is wanted in rose hybridizing.
>Today we talked about Dolly the sheep some. Even
>though she's a clone, she's aging much faster than a
>normal sheep. Cells and chromosomes may be programmed
>for a certain life span and just by propagating and
>starting over with a new clone may not totally reverse
>that time clock. Could this be the case for cloned
>plants to some degree too?
This is an interesting concept. That the biological genetic aging
clock is still ticking in the grafted plant, could explain the
observations of older rosarians that certain varieties decrease in
vigor over time. After all it is still basically the same individual
that you started with.
Bob Bauer
Bob Bauer
>... we're talking about what is essentially a
>single organism - as described later in Meg's post, the effects of aging
>more closely describe "Genetic degradation."
As I also said later my previous post, this could POSSIBLY support
the observations of decline over time of subsequent clones. Although
aren't the 45 year old "good" bush and the 45 year old multi
generational clone exactly the same "age".
One more point here: aging, although controlled by genetic code, is
not due to a CHANGE in that genetic code. And therefore, the genetic
code is not "degraded".
After running through these arguments and thinking about this, I think
that "genetic degradation" of subsequent generations of clones could
be explained as a series of subtle mutations in different populations
that go mostly un noticed, and so continue to be cloned.
If we accept this as a working hypothesis, it would mean that Peace
roses all over the world are sublty different, but it is still
possible to get a Peace plant that is identical to the original.
Maybe I got lucky.
All this stuff is pretty interesting to think about. <g>
Bob Bauer
Meg
Steven Scanniello some years ago after visiting Bermuda.
He found several varieties growing on the island that 'looked' like OGRs but
couldn't be completely and absolutely identified as this variety or that
variety.
The conclusion that he came to was that over time and possibly due to
radiation, these varieties had indeed mutated into a completely new variety.
They had characteristics of some varieties, but different leaves, petals,
thorns, growth patterns, etc. He found it absolutely fascinating. There were
several plants that were brought to his attention, so it wasn't just a
single incident of haphazard sporting.
Colette Tremblay
Aren't you confusing "rooted cuttings" with "root cuttings"? (or am I
confused myself: please explain?)
Madame Hardy
--
Colette Tremblay
Agente de Radioprotection
Université Laval
Pavillon Charles-Eugène-Marchand, local 0167
Téléphone : (418) 656-2131 poste 2893
télécopie : (418) 656-7176
Bob Bauer
Meg noted:
That does sound interesting.
If these were gardens that had been around for a long time over
generations, these new rose varieties could have been the result of
natural hybridization caused by seeds being blown around and sprouting
by themselves.
Just a thought.
Bob Bauer
Kay Cangemi
<Me...@stny.Lrun.com> wrote:
> Another interesting observation in this discussion are comments made by
> Steven Scanniello some years ago after visiting Bermuda.
> He found several varieties growing on the island that 'looked' like OGRs but
> couldn't be completely and absolutely identified as this variety or that
> variety.
> The conclusion that he came to was that over time and possibly due to
> radiation, these varieties had indeed mutated into a completely new variety.
> They had characteristics of some varieties, but different leaves, petals,
> thorns, growth patterns, etc. He found it absolutely fascinating. There were
> several plants that were brought to his attention, so it wasn't just a
> single incident of haphazard sporting.
I thought I'd heard from Malcolm, or somebody else who has been there, that
there is a good chance those plants are seedlings. It's just not something
the rest of the world is used to - garden quality wild seedlings. Of course
a fair amount of the rest of the world is still struggling with the idea of
'rose weeds'. They just haven't encountered nearly enough multiflora.
--
Kay Cangemi
A chiel 's amang ye takin' notes - Burns
New York, USDA zone 5
http://www.ulster.net/~cangemi
Colette Tremblay
A root cutting would be a piece of root used as a cutting, instead of
the more usual piece of stem.
madame H
Bill wrote:
>
(snip)
> >
> What is a "root cuttings"? What I was talking about is a
> cutting that has been rooted vs a budded rose or a tissue
> culture rose.
>
Bill
colette....@ssp.ulaval.ca says...
>Hi Bill:
>
>A root cutting would be a piece of root used as a cutting, instead of
>the more usual piece of stem.
>
what appears to be a root but is top grow ht the came out
from below either a budded rose or a own root rose is really
just top growth below ground and these will put up
"suckers". I have had a few own root Fl. do this. Orangeaid
puts out many canes and when get old run out of room to grow
ant more and then will start putting up new basal breaks in
the center of the old bud union area and then seems it will
also put out underground suckers that appears to be growth
from roots but is really growth from normal basal breaks but
from below the union or own root knob area.
Bill in Alhambra Calif.
whil...@mindspring.com
10:37:33 am 12/3/1999
Dave Amorde
Bill wrote in message ...
>In article <3847D1E4...@ssp.ulaval.ca>,
>colette....@ssp.ulaval.ca says...
>>Bill:
>>
>>Aren't you confusing "rooted cuttings" with "root cuttings"? (or am I
>>confused myself: please explain?)
>>
>>Madame Hardy
>>
>cutting that has been rooted vs a budded rose or a tissue
>culture rose.
A "root cutting" is a section or clump of a plant's roots which are removed
from the parent plant and then planted. Many plant are reproduced this way,
including roses. Anyone who has removed a rose, only to have new Dr. Huey or
multiflora volunteers spring up has inadvertently created root cuttings.
-Dave-
Bill
mscha...@aol.com says...
> Has anyone taken into consideration cultural and climate differences
>changing roses? The Peace rose that was blooming in my parents' yard in Georgia
>when I was a child was different from the virus free Peace I bought last year
>and have been been growing here in SoCal. But the roses change colors somewhat
>anyway with the temperatures, seasons, and trace minerals in the soils. Even
>the ultraviolet light is greater now in some areas with atmospheric
>degeneration.
> It's interesting that Heirloom Roses has imported Peace from Austin in
>England, because they believe the American stock has declined so. They don't
>show a picture of it in the 2000 catalog, but describe it as a "golden yellow
>with a pink edge to each petal intensifying to almost red as the flower ages."
>Has anyone seen it? ("Will the real Peace please stand up.")
>
>Altadena Mara
>
What is being called genetic degradation is sporting of the
roses and the sports being propagated and over the years a
rose like Peace that does sport a lot and proven by the many
sports that have been named and sold. The original Peace we
had in 47 does hardly resemble the junk sold today. We also
had a climber that was identical in color and sorry I didn't
take cuttings when we moved from L.A. but got a new climber
that was close but not as vigorous and died after about 10
years. The replacement this time is still growing and is
close to a real original peace but if seen side by side it
would not be considered a true peace. We have got some peace
bushes in the last few years and none are even close, and
even the foliage is not quiet the same. The blooms are a
washed out distant cousin of a true peace.
We have an original Chrysler Imperial (it came from the
original mother block) and it is deeper red then even two
other Chryslers we have that were got about 4 years after
the original one. But we see newer ones that are not the
same rich dark red of our original.
Paula, The one you sent me that Don budded from our bud
wood is now doing good in a 15 gallon pot. Should get blooms
this year that we can compare to the original Chrysler. That
old original one is still blooming good even if now 50 years
old. It appears now to be three bushes, one on Dr Huey as
gets Huey suckers and 2 more on own roots.
Bill in Alhambra Calif.
whil...@mindspring.com
9:50:14 am 12/5/1999
Suzanne
>Paula,
***Sunny, Paula is in Las Vegas right now. She Tangled with Tango! So, she may
not see this post for a few days yet. She she'll be home soon though.
The one you sent me that Don budded from our bud
>wood is now doing good in a 15 gallon pot. Should get blooms
>this year that we can compare to the original Chrysler. That
>old original one is still blooming good even if now 50 years
>old. It appears now to be three bushes, one on Dr Huey as
>gets Huey suckers and 2 more on own roots.
***I sure hope you didn't accidently take the budwood from Huey! If the one's
the Donald has bloom little Dr. Huey's....well, he will not be pleased, ha ha.
Suzanne
P.S. Weather report: When I left for work this morning, it was 58 degrees and
raining. When I came home, the temperature had taken a nose-dive and it is now
snowing! Remind me to bury the rest of my maidens tomorrow, will ya?
lms
>
>Sunny Billy writes-
>
>>Paula,
>
>***Sunny, Paula is in Las Vegas right now. She Tangled with Tango! So, she may
>not see this post for a few days yet. She she'll be home soon though.
She will probably end up in Tango's smoker.
>Suzanne
>P.S. Weather report: When I left for work this morning, it was 58 degrees and
>raining. When I came home, the temperature had taken a nose-dive and it is now
>snowing!
we got it first.
> Remind me to bury the rest of my maidens tomorrow, will ya?
your maaaaaidens. you like that word, don't you? It's too cute. I'd take
an 8-word descriptive phrase over that word.
m
Dazzler
>P.S. Weather report: When I left for work this morning, it was 58 degrees and
>raining. When I came home, the temperature had taken a nose-dive and it is now
>snowing! Remind me to bury the rest of my maidens tomorrow, will ya?
WEATHER REPORT from beautiful downtown sotheastern PA... yesterday's temp high
was 68. We were in t-shirts and shorts. Drool, PARADISE!, drool! bwa-hahahaha
paula ballin
>
>
>
> She will probably end up in Tango's smoker.
showed me around Las Vegas, took me to Caesar's Palace to visit the
Forum Shops, bought me a strawberry daiquiri, lunch in China Town, and
would have done more, but we were tired from waking up at 4 in the
morning to catch the plane.
> >P.S. Weather report: When I left for work this morning, it was 58 degrees and
> >raining. When I came home, the temperature had taken a nose-dive and it is now
> >snowing!
###Snowing here in Chicago when we got off the plane from Las
Vegas...weather in Vegas was sunny, but windy and chilly (actually
colder than in Chicago until the weather change came through Chicago on
Sunday.
> > Remind me to bury the rest of my maidens tomorrow, will ya?
>
> your maaaaaidens. you like that word, don't you? It's too cute. I'd take
> an 8-word descriptive phrase over that word.
>
###You know, Mack, Suz is very protective of her maidens, as well she
should be. The Donalds blood, sweat and bad back goes into every one of
them. Some people I know kill the maidens before they ever get a chance
to do anything....right????? After all, Suz gets things from the Donald
she might not be able to find anywhere else.
Paula
lms
>
>lms wrote:
>>
>> She will probably end up in Tango's smoker.
>###I did not!!!!Tango was a great gentleman, and delight to meet.
How are Marsha and OJ?
>###You know, Mack, Suz is very protective of her maidens, as well she
>should be. The Donalds blood, sweat and bad back goes into every one of
>them. Some people I know kill the maidens before they ever get a chance
>to do anything....right?????
uhhhh. mmmmm. this has happent, yes ma'am.
was a bad year, a vewy bad year. the worst. a fluke. all that's changed. :)
After all, Suz gets things from the Donald
>she might not be able to find anywhere else.
well, yeah. I think maybe it's just the word maaaaaiden coming out of Princess
Velvet's mouth that gets me.
nmmnm
TANGO 2X2
>> She will probably end up in Tango's smoker.
Hahaha, Mack, are you jealous? When I smoked, I stayed away from her, knowing
that she had quited for 8 weeks.
>###I did not!!!!Tango was a great gentleman, and delight to meet. He
>showed me around Las Vegas, took me to Caesar's Palace to visit the
>Forum Shops, bought me a strawberry daiquiri, lunch in China Town, and would
have done more, but we were tired from waking up at 4 in the
>morning to catch the plane.
Thank you Paula, for the kind words!!!!. We missed the opportunity to the Rio
Hotel. They have Titanic artifacts ( 2 and half miles from the bottom of the
sea ) in display too. <sigh>
>###Snowing here in Chicago when we got off the plane from Las
>Vegas...weather in Vegas was sunny, but windy and chilly (actually
>colder than in Chicago .........
Friday was windyand cold, But Saturday was sunny and calm, wasn't it? And
Sunday too.
>###You know, Mack, Suz is very protective of her maidens, as well she
>should be. The Donalds blood, sweat and bad back goes into every one of
>them.
I wish I had met Donald too, well, next time, I hope he is not affraid of
Boeings....
Tango
Celeste
Ohhh, mann, I wanna meet Tango and Paula AND Donald.
TANGO 2X2
>Ohhh, mann, I wanna meet Tango and Paula AND Donald.
>
Thank you for the line. I got a tickle out of it !!! I can never begin to
compare myself with Paula or Donald. She has been growing and exhibiting roses
for 40 years. And she and Donald also are rose judges. 40 years ago they
started with 2 roses...........Just thought this might be of interest........
Tango
Silvirado
> I can never begin to
>compare myself with Paula or Donald. She has been growing and exhibiting
>roses
>for 40 years. And she and Donald also are rose judges. 40 years ago they
>started with 2 roses..........
Was one of them Blue Moon?
Are there any roses from 30 or 40 years ago that you wish you had held onto?
Bill
silv...@aol.com says...
don't have, Don't wish I had kept any of them.
Bill
FARHRZNS
x.whi...@mindspring.com (Bill) writes:
>>Was one of them Blue Moon?
>>Are there any roses from 30 or 40 years ago that you wish you had held onto?
>>
>>
>>
>I have some that I have had over 40 years but any that I
>don't have, Don't wish I had kept any of them.
>
We have Garden Party still (which we started with 39 years ago. ) The inability
to find really, really good plants of it now makes it tough to replace. We
still grow Peace, Pink Parfait, Permanent Wave, but, Tango the Blue Moons are
only 32 years old.
Paula