Repotting: Why NOT Use Pine Bark?
Rod T. Rogers
Over the years, I have repotted my 50 or so phals, dens, cats, paphs, and
oncidiums in my homemade mix consisting of 70% PINE bark, 25% recycled (wine
bottle) cork chunks, and 5% charcoal. All plants are thriving and in excellent
condition. However, every one of my dozen or more orchid books refer to "bark"
or "fir bark" but NEVER pine bark, as an acceptable potting component. I
realize there are many "old wives tales" regarding various aspects of
orchid-tending, but this silence on the attributes of pine bark continues to
elude me. Is there ANYONE out there able provide a VALID horticultural
rationale as to why pine bark may be inappropriate and/or unacceptable as a
potting amendment?
Cordially,
Rod T. Rogers
L.I., NY, Zone 7
Ken Woodward
are other factors to consider, however, including your watering and
fertilizing habits. If what you are doing works for you, then it is the
correct thing for you.
Ken Woodward
Newton, MA
http://kwoodward.net
"Rod T. Rogers" <rod...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020519101338...@mb-mg.aol.com...
Rod T. Rogers
Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply. Your observation that watering
and fertilizing habits are relevant factors in my orchids' good condition are
undoubtedly correct. However, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that
pine "breaks down too quickly," for the following reason. In addition to my
recent (5 years) obsession with orchids, I have grown bonsai for over 3
decades, and pine bark is a universally-recommended organic
amendment-of-choice, due precisely to it's (relative) longevity!
A frequent contributor recently cautioned a writer against using pine bark,
but did not state the basis of his objection. Also, other contributors to this
newsgroup have noted their successful use of diverse non-traditional potting
media such as marbles and pea gravel; materials not usually mentioned in orchid
"how-to" books.
Is it possible that, in the absence of quantifiable and substantive
horticultural reasons for NOT using pine bark as an orchid potting component,
growers prefer to rely on fir or redwood bark, traditional, "tried-and-true"
materials?
Cordially,
"Rod T. Rogers" <rod...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020519101338...@mb-mg.aol.com...
> Hello Fellow Enthusiasts,
> Over the years, I have repotted my 50 or so phals, dens, cats, paphs, and
> oncidiums in my homemade mix consisting of 70% PINE bark, 25% recycled
(wine
> bottle) cork chunks, and 5% charcoal. All plants are thriving and in
excellent
> condition. However, every one of my dozen or more orchid books refer to
"bark"
> or "fir bark" but NEVER pine bark, as an acceptable potting component. I
> realize there are many "old wives tales" regarding various aspects of
> orchid-tending, but this silence on the attributes of pine bark continues
to
> elude me. Is there ANYONE out there able provide a VALID horticultural
> rationale as to why pine bark may be inappropriate and/or unacceptable as
a
> potting amendment?
> Cordially,
> Rod T. Rogers
> L.I., NY, Zone 7
>>
<<Subject: Re: Repotting: Why NOT Use Pine Bark?
From: "Ken Woodward" k...@kwoodward.net
Date: Sun, May 19, 2002 12:20 PM
Message-id: <shQF8.7830$Bn5.3...@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>
Pine breaks down too quickly, so it is not considered a good choice. There
are other factors to consider, however, including your watering and
fertilizing habits. If what you are doing works for you, then it is the
correct thing for you.
Ken Woodward
Newton, MA
http://kwoodward.net
Rod T. Rogers
L.I., NY, Zone 7
Diana Kulaga
(think pine bark for mulch as opposed to, say, cypress or eucallyptus),
there is something about pine resin that is viewed unfavorably. Just why is
beyond me, as is where I heard that, so don't necessarily take it as gospel.
Just a thought.
Diana
Kye
it caused root degradation and eventual loss of the plant. My main
observations were that the bark always maintained some level of Resinous
content, and that where the roots contacted the media, they were burnt off
quite quickly.
Kye.
"Rod T. Rogers" <rod...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020519135706...@mb-ck.aol.com...
Marc Laliberte
(20%) for most "standard" orchids (Phalaenopsis, Oncidium, Laelia, Cattleya,
Dendroobium) and I have been very satisfied with the results.
Here are two hypothesis why others may not have been as succesful:
- Not all pine species may be equals. On my bag the pine species is only
identified as "Southern Pine". It has been packed in North Carolina. I have
no idea what actual species was used.
- Pine bark will degrade more rapidely if the medium is kept wet. I try to
get the medium to dry out at least once a week (it also help with pests
control). Pine bark last for at last 2 - 3 years in this manner. If I have
an orchid species that require to be kept damp at all time I do not use pine
bark.
Does this helps?
Marc
john beasley
beneficial to orchids (and I am NOT an expert on ph). But in remembering my
college days in Tallahassee, and discussions on why "certain plants" would
not grow well in pine forests, I'm pretty sure mention was made of
unsuitable alkalinity of the soil due to the pine.
Assuming the validity of the comment, it strikes me as a likely explanation
of why pine bark is considered unsuitable for orchids. FWIW ! :>)
Rod T. Rogers
Thank you for sharing your successful pine bark experience; your reply is
helpful and reassuring. The pine bark I use is also southern - from Virginia
and labelled "screened and shredded southern pine mulch not larger than 1.5"
and containing no more than 15% cambium or wood."
Your observation that pine bark lasts for years if allowed to periodically dry
out is consistent with my own experience with both orchids and bonsai. However,
I believe that not only pine bark, but ALL organic potting materials will
degrade more rapidly if kept constantly wet.
Cordially,
Rod T. Rogers
<< Subject: Re: Repotting: Why NOT Use Pine Bark?
Date: Sun, May 19, 2002 2:16 PM
Message-id: <4%RF8.5799$FJ1.1...@wagner.videotron.net>
Rod T. Rogers
L.I., NY, Zone 7
Rod T. Rogers
Thank you for your college recollections regarding the difficulty of certain
plants to thrive in pine forests resulting from "unsuitable alkalinity of the
soil due to the pine." Although I trust you will concur it is a quantum leap to
analogize between plants in pine forests and orchids in pine bark, your
insightful speculation has nevertheless prompted me to check the ph levels in
the orchid pots, a task I will undertake tomorrow morning. Thanks!
Cordially,
Rod T. Rogers
<< Subject: Re: Repotting: Why NOT Use Pine Bark?
From: "john beasley" jbea...@nyc.rr.com
Date: Sun, May 19, 2002 3:24 PM
Message-id: <DZSF8.36945$6c7.8...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>
Rod T. Rogers
L.I., NY, Zone 7
tennis
burned the roots off both.
john beasley
I will be very interested to learn of your ph testing. Aside from questions
of degradability, it does seem a logical step to take. In the meantime,
what did Andrew mean by composted bark?
JB
"Rod T. Rogers" <rod...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020519182410...@mb-fj.aol.com...
tennis
other preparation than that most people pre-wet it by soaking it for a
few hours or a day. Composting would ruin it by breaking it down and
rendering it useless. Fir usually lasts from one to two years depending
on the size and the degree of wetness maintained in the pot.
Andrew
> <snip>
> the pines here really don't have a suitable bark structure
> for orchid growing - to flaky, not really chunky - and
> damned if the steaming doesn't remove the stuff that keeps it
> from decomposing rapidly.
Orchid bark (ie pine bark commercially prepared and package for use with
orchids) is very chunky. A lot of what I've heard and read from Australian
growers states to use the chunky bark in favour of the flaky stuff. Maybe it is
a species difference then. Or maybe the difference in structure is due to where
on the tree the bark is harvested from. Presumably if commercial orchid bark in
the US is fir bark, the chunky pine bark wouldn't be separated from the flaky
bark as it is here (most pine mulches in Oz are on the flaky side).
Andrew
Andrew
Are you referring to fir bark straight off the tree or the stuff you buy from
packaged from a nursery? When any wood based product decomposes the
bacteria/fungi use up nitrogen taking away nitrogen from any plant trying to
grow in it. This is called nitrogen drawdown. It is recommended that you cover
wood chip mulch with blood'n'bone for this reason.
Here in Australia, pine bark treatment for orchids involves heaping wet pine
bark in layers of bark and a nitrogen source (ie urea/blood'n'bone/etc) for a
few weeks. This is not enough time to decompose the bark but it does reduce the
bark's need to draw in nitrogen. This is also enough time for the pine's toxins
to be reduced. I assumed the same process was used for fir. Ray mentioned that
fir bark is steamed to remove the oils and tars. This process is also used with
pine bark instead of partial composting but composted pine bark is usually
recommended over steamed/boiled bark.
As for the life of pine to fir bark, it appears that for the chunky stuff the
break down rate is comparable.
Andrew
>
> <Snip>
> In the meantime, what did Andrew mean by composted bark?
> JB
>
See my post to Tennis about it. It's just a general treatment that is carried
out on commercially available orchid (pine) bark (in Australia at least). You
can buy pine bark and treat it yourself if you want but most people find it
easier to buy the commercial stuff. The bark is piled up in layers of bark and
a nitrogen source as you would do with a normal compost heap (although the
source of nitrogen is a little more controlled). The heap is soaked and left for
a few weeks, turning occasionally. The bark is not broken down but the effects
of nitrogen draw down are reduced. (NB: nitrogen draw down is the process by
which wood takes up nitrogen as it decomposes due to the action of bacteria and
fungi) A few weeks of soaking will also break down any of the pines toxins.
Ray @ First Rays Orchids
The outer surface of the pine bark I'm used to seeing is very porous and
flaky, but if you scrape that off, between that and the wood proper is a
layer of firmer stuff that - to my eye, anyway - would be better suited for
a medium -- assuming the oils and tars were gone.
--
Ray Barkalow <> First Rays Orchids
http://www.firstrays.com
Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info!
"Andrew" <Cory...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3CE99DA9...@yahoo.com...
Bruce SInclair
>I think you might be right, Andrew.
>
>The outer surface of the pine bark I'm used to seeing is very porous and
>flaky, but if you scrape that off, between that and the wood proper is a
>layer of firmer stuff that - to my eye, anyway - would be better suited for
>a medium -- assuming the oils and tars were gone.
.. and at least in NZ, pine bark is washed and left to age a bit IIRC. The
fine particles are mostly gone. There's certainly some treatment involved and
not just "gather bark - use for orchids" :). Some growers further wash and/or
treat the bark (eg add lime or fertilisers).
Bruce
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john beasley
know what processes are applied to our commercially packaged bark products
for orchids. Something else to find out.
However... re: compensating for the effect of nitrogen draw-down without
partial composting, traditional instructional reading simply recommends the
use of a high nitrogen fertilizer, like a 30-10-10, to put it back in. I've
also read at least one account (though I unfortunately can't remember where)
expressing the opinion that this type of compensation isn't really
necessary - that the amount of nitrogen "drawn down" isn't significant
enough to justify these traditional compensatory procedures.
These different accounts of the rate that pine breaks down is confusing.
Isn't it a softer wood than fir and redwood, and so would naturally break
down more quickly? I wonder, then, if nitrogen draw-down is more of an
issue with pine because the process happens faster ? I dunno.
Sorry about all the conjecture. It's sort've what I do when I don't know.
And there's so MUCH to know !
John
phillipd...@gmail.com
Thanks
Phillip
phonogr...@gmail.com
We humans always like to think we know more than plants. If your orchids grow well on pine bark in your climate and environment under your watering and fertilizing habits. I would continue.
Raw pine bark mulch is $3 fot a 3sq-ft bag
Its like most pharmaceudical information in the west. A lot of distracting and strategically worded "scientific" reports are put out by manufacturers of expensive bark products fir orchids so that we spend $7 dollar of a tiny bag of un-named 'treated bark".
Its a desease of our culture.
I have grown orchids everywhere and if you pay attention to the plant you can find what it needs to theive in your yard. It seems you have found it!
Steve
This seems like reasonable advice.
Agent Orange
he...@designsbyrobynlove.com
leslie Napper
> This is my question. Can I go gather say blue spruce bark from my yard and prepare it in some way to use? Can you elaborate on what you have used.
I prefer older trees 40 years plus put through a hammermill i use a acid and soak for 3 dads , remove and place on a wire netting cover with shade cloth. i saturate it with fresh water and let it dry for 3 days. The water from this process is the colour of tar -pitch black, but the bark that goes through this process is suitable for orchids. i then put the bark back into my 800ltr tub made of plastic . with 400ltrs of fresh water with lime and high nitrogen fertilizer and soak for 2 days. i remove the bark and dry it and the ph is 6 orchids grow better in a low PH . I then sive with a 6 to 9=10 to 14 =15 to 25 , and my orchids grow fine and flower well enough to take out many first and champ-s of show, i fertilize with aquasol for the past 50 years with out a problem.
Finer bark will work but breaks down faster and stays wetter. so you must ajust your watering to suite.
I grow orchids that need to be kept wetter like oncid allience and soft cane dens and cymbids.
Growing orchids is no secret see the problem before it happens and that takes a little time.
I use 4 bark =2 charcoal =1 Jumbo pearlite =1 of good quality scoria.
Remember 3 things orchids like =LIGHT AIR WATER get that right and your a champ grower.
LES,