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Jungle Feed

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keith kent

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Aug 17, 2009, 6:33:27 PM8/17/09
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Hi , Any thoughts on Jungle feed and can anyone point me in the direction to
finding out what is in jungle feed ?

It is 1-0-1 , i have found out it is from a stock solution of 12.8- 4.8 -
14.5 so how do they get 1-0-1 ?

Regards Keith


keith kent

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Aug 17, 2009, 6:36:38 PM8/17/09
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"keith kent" <kei...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:YUkim.69702$Nj5....@newsfe18.ams2...
Sorry it is called Jungle Green
Keith
>
>


Ray B

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Aug 18, 2009, 8:32:53 AM8/18/09
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Read this:

http://www.orchidboard.com/community/advanced-discussion/9400-msu-fertilizer-vs-green-jungle-orchid-food.html

Ray Barkalow - First Rays LLC - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Equipment, Books, Artwork
Free Services & Lots of Info!

Ray B

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Aug 18, 2009, 8:32:53 AM8/18/09
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Dilute it about 12:1 or 13:1

12.8/12=1.07
4.8/12=0.4
14.5/12=1.21

Rounding to the nearest whole number, that's 1-0-1

Ray Barkalow - First Rays LLC - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Equipment, Books, Artwork
Free Services & Lots of Info!


-----Original Message-----
From: keith kent [mailto:kei...@ntlworld.com]
Posted At: Monday, August 17, 2009 6:33 PM
Posted To: rec.gardens.orchids
Conversation: Jungle Feed

Subject: Jungle Feed

keith kent

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Aug 19, 2009, 12:11:18 PM8/19/09
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Thanks for that Ray , i did see the orchidboard post after doing a search.
I am going to buy the Akerne orchids feed which is basically the MSU i think http://www.akerne-orchids.com/index.htm as it is the only one available in the EU .
As the feed is 13 -3- 15 does this mean that less feed will be required compared to the 1-0-1 .
If so this is just what i am looking for ,as i mix up at 160lts a time sometimes and liquid feeds ,i just use too much of the stuff even to get the mix to 350ppm .
Regards Keith  

Ray B

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Aug 19, 2009, 5:37:55 PM8/19/09
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What I have learned is that most professional growers (not just orchids), control their feeding by managing the ppm N in the solution, and letting the rest of the nutrients “tag along” in the ratios of the preferred formula.

 

I shoot for 125 ppm N in my fertilizer solution at all times.  It’s easy to determine the amount to use – just divide 10 by the %N on the label, and the result is teaspoons to add per gallon.  For you sophisticated, metricated  folks, divide 13 by the %N to get the ml/L.

 

Ray Barkalow - First Rays LLC - www.firstrays.com

Orchid Plants, Supplies, Equipment, Books

Artwork, Free Services & Lots of Info!

Kenneth

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Aug 20, 2009, 9:21:35 AM8/20/09
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On Aug 19, 6:11 pm, "keith kent" <kei...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Re: Jungle FeedThanks for that Ray , i did see the orchidboard post after doing a search.
> I am going to buy the Akerne orchids feed which is basically the MSU i thinkhttp://www.akerne-orchids.com/index.htmas it is the only one available in the EU .

> As the feed is 13 -3- 15 does this mean that less feed will be required compared to the 1-0-1 .
> If so this is just what i am looking for ,as i mix up at 160lts a time sometimes and liquid feeds ,i just use too much of the stuff even to get the mix to 350ppm .
> Regards Keith  

Keith,


Yes, "Akerne's RAIN MIX" is the MSU fertiliser for rainwater etc.
Our TAP MIX version is not there yet as we have trouble getting all
the ingredients, let us just say that one of the ingredients needed
can be used for other purposes.... making it very hard to near
impossible to get hold of.

Have a chat with my father at the BOGA fayre end of the month
concerning your concentration.
We go up to 550ppm for ALL our orchids (no exception) and this
includes, amongst others, anything from Disa, Cyrpipedium,
Paphiopedilum, Masdevallia over to Cattleya and Cymbidium.


kind regards,

Kenneth Bruyninckx
Akerne Orchids, Belgium

http://www.akerne-orchids.com

Ray B

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Aug 20, 2009, 11:56:04 AM8/20/09
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Thanks for jumping in, Kenneth.

Even GreenCare - the folks that make the original "MSU" fertilizers - have to resort to more-expensive raw materials for the tap water formula.

The whole "dissolved solids" level discussion is hard to deal with, which is why EC or going with the nitrogen loading is more manageable.

For example, using the MSU RO formula, for 125 ppm N, adding up the weight percentages of all of the cations present gives a dissolved solids level of about 355 ppm.  However, as one must add 3.55 grams of the powder to a gallon of water for 125 ppm N, that is an addition of 938 ppm.

Now I'm quite sure that all of the constituents of the mineral molecules don't contribute to the dissolved solids content - some of those are water, after all - so that suggests that the TRUE dissolved solids content is lower than that last calculation would imply, but how do you determine that?

TDS meters really are of little value, as they are just cheap EC meters with a built-in conversion factor to ppm.  Unfortunately, the factor should change with the make-up of the ionic species dissolved, so it technically cannot be a single factor for all fertilizers and solutions.  Let's also not forget that different manufacturers use different conversion factors!  I have two - at a 125 ppm N solution, one tells me the TDS is about 480 ppm, the other 610.  About all TDS meters are good for is assessing whether the solution you made up this time is different from the last time.

Ray Barkalow - First Rays LLC - www.firstrays.com

Orchid Plants, Supplies, Equipment, Books

Artwork, Free Services & Lots of Info!


-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth [mailto:ken...@akerne-orchids.com]
Posted At: Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:22 AM
Posted To: rec.gardens.orchids
Conversation: Jungle Feed

Subject: Re: Jungle Feed

keith kent

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Aug 20, 2009, 3:53:45 PM8/20/09
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Thanks Ray & Kenneth .
I am hoping to go to the Boga fayre !
Regards Keith 

Kenneth

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Aug 20, 2009, 4:44:45 PM8/20/09
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Small, but very important correction.

I meant to say that we add fertilizer to reach conductivity of 550 µS,
not 550ppm....


Kenneth.

keith kent

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Aug 21, 2009, 5:00:15 PM8/21/09
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So that is around 350 ppm ,do you feed at this rate all year round or reduce
.
Obviously in winter watering is reduced for most plants so will get feed
less frequently .
Kenneth ,can you confirm that the 2.5 kg rain mix will be for sale at the
Boga show as i am traveling some distance so don`t want to be disapointed if
it is not .
Regards Keith
"Kenneth" <ken...@akerne-orchids.com> wrote in message
news:bf29880b-0550-4f91...@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

Small, but very important correction.

I meant to say that we add fertilizer to reach conductivity of 550 �S,
not 550ppm....


Kenneth.


Ray B

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Aug 22, 2009, 11:15:38 AM8/22/09
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Keith,

Unless you're growing stuff like Den. nobile, that needs a "winter rest" - i.e., no nitrogen whatsoever - I find it advantageous to feed year round.

In fact, all of my plants get 125 ppm N (about twice the concentration Kenneth uses) at every watering.

Ray Barkalow - First Rays LLC - www.firstrays.com
Orchid Plants, Supplies, Equipment, Books
Artwork, Free Services & Lots of Info!


-----Original Message-----
From: keith kent [mailto:kei...@ntlworld.com]

Posted At: Friday, August 21, 2009 5:00 PM
Posted To: rec.gardens.orchids
Conversation: Jungle Feed
Subject: Re: Jungle Feed

I meant to say that we add fertilizer to reach conductivity of 550 µS,
not 550ppm....


Kenneth.

keith kent

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Aug 22, 2009, 3:19:18 PM8/22/09
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Hi Ray ,i have just used your online ppm calculator and inputted 13-3-15  at 0.75 teaspoon a gallon came out at
129n -p 13 -k 123  total TDS 265 ppm
This seems low to me as i would normally aim for around 400-450ppm at the most in summer then reduce to around 250 in winter.
i feed 3 weeks .once a month i use plain RO with added Cal ,mg at this time i would also use the plain RO to add Physan for the monthly treatment . 
Regards Keith
 
 

Ray B

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Aug 22, 2009, 9:29:40 PM8/22/09
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Don’t forget that the calculator you used is giving the calculated solids loading of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium only, without regard to the other minerals in the fertilizer.

 

Ray Barkalow - First Rays LLC - www.firstrays.com

Orchid Plants, Supplies, Equipment, Books

Artwork, Free Services & Lots of Info!

 

keith kent

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Aug 23, 2009, 5:11:29 PM8/23/09
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Oh, ok Ray .
So going for 0.75 with that feed is o.k ? 
Would it also be best to feed at every watering at this rate .?
Keith
   

Ray B

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Aug 25, 2009, 7:09:46 AM8/25/09
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That’s what I do.

 

Let me add that if you’re growing in “normal” culture (organic media components), I would feed for 3 out of 4 waterings, water only the 4th time.

keith kent

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Aug 26, 2009, 12:05:22 PM8/26/09
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I mainly use bark mix ,i am trying a husk mix on some Massies .So my 4th watering will be water only .
As i am using RO i have still been adding Cal & Mg and adjusting the ph when using water only  ,would you say this is good practice ?.
Or not neccessary ?
Regards Keith 

Ray B

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Aug 26, 2009, 3:25:48 PM8/26/09
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With the “rain water” formula, I believe the plants will get all they need from the fertilizer, so would not bother adding it to the flush water.

keith kent

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Aug 27, 2009, 4:46:25 PM8/27/09
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Thanks for your input Ray .
Regards Keith
 

keith kent

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Aug 27, 2009, 4:46:25 PM8/27/09
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Thanks for your input Ray .
Regards Keith
 

keith kent

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Aug 30, 2009, 4:24:15 PM8/30/09
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Hi Ray , for ml/L msu is 13 % N divide x 13 is obviously 1 ml ? is this per litre so it is 4.5 ml per  gallon water? it surely cannot be 1 ml a gallon .
Cheers Keith  

keith kent

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Aug 30, 2009, 4:42:39 PM8/30/09
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Hi Ray ,i now have my 13-3-15 MSU feed ,i have been using your conversions etc and know i need 0.75 teaspoon per gallon to get 125 N, with all the other nutrients added what total ppm should i end with in RO.So it gives me an idea of where it should be .I know with TDS meters this cannot be that accurate but if you could give me an idea what you get would be good .
Sorry to be a pain in the neck ,but i want to get it right now i know i have the right feed that i have been looking for for along time !
one more question , what else is in the feed ? as all the % of all the elements doesn`t add to 100 % or am i missing something ?
Cheers Keith   
 
 

Ray B

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Aug 31, 2009, 8:05:43 AM8/31/09
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You are correct that you would add 1ml of a 13%N fertilizer to one liter (litre) of water.  I’ll leave the conversion to imperial gallons to you.

keith kent

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Aug 31, 2009, 2:20:11 PM8/31/09
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Hi RAY ,i am using a online conversion  would you convert US gallon dry as the feed is powder form ?
Thanks Keith

keith kent

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Aug 31, 2009, 2:32:27 PM8/31/09
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Ray is it as simple as converting 0.75 us teaspoon to uk teaspoon which is 1.0408427308 ( which is as good as 1 teaspoon yeh ?) then add this to a uk Gallon which is 4.5 UK litres
What do you think ?,if i can get this right from the start then it will be easy from here .Phew !
Keith

keith kent

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Aug 31, 2009, 3:11:56 PM8/31/09
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Answer NO, i did this and the TDS came out at 650ppm .
 

Ray B

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Aug 31, 2009, 4:10:49 PM8/31/09
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A gallon is a volume measurement – liquid or powder makes no difference.

Ray B

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Aug 31, 2009, 4:31:35 PM8/31/09
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Keith,

 

A US gallon is 3.785 liters

A US teaspoon is 4.93 milliliters

 

An Imperial gallon is 4.546 liters

An Imperial teaspoon is 5.92 milliliters

 

1 US teaspoon per US gallon is 4.93ml/3.785L =  1.302 ml/L

 

1 Imperial teaspoon per Imperial gallon is 5.92ml/4.546L = 1.302ml/L

 

The ratio being identical means that 10 divided by the %N gives you the teaspoons per gallon to use for 125 ppm N, whether US or Imperial units.

 

As you put one Imperial teaspoon in an Imperial gallon, you used 1/0.75=1.333, or one-third more than necessary, meaning that the solution you now have is about 125 x 1.333=167 ppm N, so all you have to do is dilute it to ¾ of its current concentration for use.  You could take a quart of solution out and replace it with a quart of water, or if your mixing container is large enough, add a quart plus a cup of water to the gallon.

keith kent

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Sep 1, 2009, 5:01:47 AM9/1/09
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Sorry Ray , i am getting on my own nerves now !!
Your calculator & MSU comes out at 0.73 teaspoons per gallon or 0.95 m/l per litre to achieve 125 ppm N.
 
This seems high still as when i added 0.75 teaspoons per gallon the TDS was approx 650 ppm why ? as the calculator says it should be 258 ppm ,i no this doesn`t include the other elements ,but surely they don`t add up to 392 ppm
This is using RO @ 6ppm
Or is this TDS usually about right ?
I will try again 0.73 in a gallon again and see what i get  
Thanks for the below i have printed it off &  Cheers
Keith 

keith kent

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Sep 1, 2009, 5:39:06 AM9/1/09
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This really is getting silly now ! ;-)
On my 1 teaspoon is 5ml , a online conversion from 1 teaspoon to ml is 3.55163ml
I have always known 1teaspoon as 5 ml, 
This should be simple right , i only want to know how many whatever to put into a gallon to get 125 ppm N.
aaaHHHHHH
lol

keith kent

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Sep 1, 2009, 5:55:12 AM9/1/09
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1 teaspoon is 5ml , going by the calculator this is 4.54 x 0.95 =4.3 ml per gallon /4.54 l
This is way too much i think
I have put 5ml in 10 l to achieve TDS  of 320 ppm
keith

Ray B

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Sep 1, 2009, 8:12:45 AM9/1/09
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First of all, TDS meters are rarely correct.  I have two, and at a known 125 ppm N solution of the Greencare MSU RO formula, one tells me the TDS is 475, the other 600 ppm.  How are we to trust either of them for absolute readings?  Here’s a bit from my “EC & TDS” article:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

A TDS meter is really just an electrical conductivity (EC) meter that has a built-in conversion factor that displays the output in parts per million (ppm) of total dissolved solids (TDS).  The trouble is that the relationship between the conductivity of a solution and its content varies not only by the concentration of the dissolved ions, but is also based upon the charge and mobility of the dissolved ionic species.

As a very simplified explanation of that, imagine a small ion and a large ion having the same electrical charge.  The small ion will find it easier to move in the solution, so "conducts" that charge faster, so gives a higher EC for the same concentration (TDS) in the solution.  Likewise, if two ions have the same size, but one has a higher charge than the other, it too will show a higher EC.

A commercial fertilizer can be made up of dozens of different chemicals, each of which ionizes  and contributes to the EC of the solution, and different brands of fertilizer can use different chemicals to make up the total formula.  With all of that variability, how can a single "constant" conversion factor be valid?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 

That said, as you recognize, my online calculator only gives the ppm of the N, P, & K.

 

If you use the Greencare published chemistry, and calculate the contribution of the cations only, for 125 ppm N, the calculated TDS is for N+P+K is 265 ppm, and adding the minor elements brings the total up to about 355 ppm.  However, we know that some of the anionic components contribute to the TDS, but which do and which don’t?  Also, some fertilizer minerals have chemically-bound water in them, so when dissolved that water comes free but does not contribute to the conductivity or dissolved solids content.

 

Let’s look at it from the other end of the spectrum:  according to the Greencare label, one must add 3.55g of powder to a US gallon of pure water to attain the 125 ppm N level.  As a part-per-million is a milligram per kilogram, and a US gallon is 3.785 liters @ 1 kg/L, for 125 ppm N, we are actually adding 3550mg/3.785kg or 938 ppm of solids.

 

So now we have a calculated cation contribution of 355 ppm at one end, and a gross contribution of 938 ppm at the other.  The REAL answer is somewhere in between, but I’ll be damned if I have any idea what it is, and I will not trust >>>ANY<<< TDS meter to tell me a true level anyway.  (With the exception of orchid growers, professional nurserymen rely on EC of the solution, as it is directly measurable.)

 

Here’s the best advice you can get:

 

1)  Trust the manufacturer.

2)  Know your units.

3)  Mix the recommended amount.

4)  Don’t fret any longer.

 

If you want to use your TDS meter, do as I, and only use it as a guide.  Using 1, 2, & 3 above, I measure the TDS with one of my meters – let’s use the 600 one in this example – and from then on, if I check my solution and it’s between 550 and 650, I’m happy.  The actual number is meaningless, but it does allow me to measure repeatability.

 

Can we move on now, please?

keith kent

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Sep 1, 2009, 7:10:16 AM9/1/09
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I have redone this @ 0.75 /gallon
result is 422ppm/660 m/sm RO 6ppm
 
So i am thinking if this was diluted to 7 litres i should be somewhere where i want to be around TDS 250-300 ppm and feeding @ every watering  
Keith 

Ray B

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Sep 1, 2009, 9:35:30 AM9/1/09
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What’s the 660 m/sm?

 

Why do you want to dilute it further?  The recommended continuous feeding rate for the MSU RO formula is 125 ppm N.  If your 0.75 tsp/gal gives you that, why change?

pak...@usenet.pr.neotoma.org

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Sep 1, 2009, 10:29:35 AM9/1/09
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On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 09:35:30 -0400 in <000401ca2b09$2a9f8d80$0201a8c0@fro> Ray B <ray...@nospam.firstrays.com> wrote:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0092_01CA2AE7.A38206A0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

>
> What’s the 660 m/sm?
>
> Why do you want to dilute it further? The recommended continuous
> feeding rate for the MSU RO formula is 125 ppm N. If your 0.75 tsp/gal
> gives you that, why change?

Any chance ya'll could turn off the posting with a text version and
an HTML version and trim the quotes occasionally?
While this thread has been amusing me greatly, 1588 line posts which
are mostly HTML from earlier in the thread is getting a tad insane.

And as keith has finally gone metric like a good european...

PPM Nitrogen = 1000000* ((%N/100)*((fertilizer in ml)/1000)/(container size in liters)

Cancel some zeroes
PPM Nitrogen = 10 * (%N * (fertilizer in ml))/(container size in liters)

And plug in the numbers for 125PPM nitrogen... 13%N in the fertilizer...

125 = 10 * ( 13 * (x))/1

125/130 ml/l and for sanity's sake we just round to 1ml/l.

And if Keith wants to play with the amounts for other PPMs.

PPM component*container size in l/(10*%component)= ml of fert

And if Keith absolutely must find out the TDS... the UK should have
an equivalent to an agriculture extension agency which should, for a
fee, be willing to do a full sample anlysis for him.

Color me a grouch, but these calculations are a no-brainer
in metric. And if you need to end up using screwball non-metric
units, do the unit conversion from the metric answer to the screwball
units.

And Keith... there's this wonderful Unix program called 'units'.
Here's a useful conversion for you...

You have: ml/l
You want: brteaspoon/brgallon
* 0.909218
/ 1.0998462

And another useful conversion...

You have: usteaspoon/usgallon
You want: brteaspoon/brgallon
* 1.1838776
/ 0.84468191

And now I'm off to ponder asking for a half stack of mulch...
--
Chris Dukes

Robert Lorenzini

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Sep 1, 2009, 2:56:34 PM9/1/09
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On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 14:29:35 +0000 (UTC), pak...@usenet.pr.neotoma.org <pak...@usenet.pr.neotoma.org> wrote:
>
> Any chance ya'll could turn off the posting with a text version and
> an HTML version and trim the quotes occasionally?
>

Please.

> And Keith... there's this wonderful Unix program called 'units'.

Found it. I wish I had it last week.

Bob

keith kent

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Sep 1, 2009, 4:32:40 PM9/1/09
to
Ray , i took two readings one being 422 ppm other was 660 microsiemens .
To finish, i think what has put me off thinking the readings are wrong somehow is that the TDS is higher than i thought it would be @ 125 ppm N.
Especially at every watering .
 i would normally peak @ approx 500ppm in summer then reduce ppm to a low of 250ppm in winter .
I will stick to 0.75 -gallon and see what the results are !
I apologise if this has dragged on , but i needed to know what i was doing is correct to the recommended dosage.
Cheers Keith   

Ray B

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Sep 1, 2009, 4:53:20 PM9/1/09
to

If it makes you feel any better, The Greencare Orchid Special for RO Water (the original so-called “MSU” fertilizer) contributes 1000µS  to the EC at 125 ppm N.

keith kent

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Sep 1, 2009, 5:38:36 PM9/1/09
to
Ray
Do you reduce the feed rate for pleurophallids & slipper orchids
Keith

Ray B

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Sep 2, 2009, 8:38:54 AM9/2/09
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No.  I have very few pleurothallids, but lots of paphs and phrags – all in semi-hydro culture - and they grow like weeds.

 

For the last 8 years, my schedule has been to get up at 5, shower, dress, breakfast at 5:30, water the greenhouse, then off on a commute of 80km.  At 5:30, I don’t have time to “coddle” any of my plants – they all get the same watering frequency, fertilizer concentrate, etc.

 

Ray Barkalow - First Rays LLC - www.firstrays.com

Orchid Plants, Supplies, Equipment, Books

Artwork, Free Services & Lots of Info!

 

From: keith kent [mailto:kei...@ntlworld.com]
Posted At: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 5:39 PM
Posted To: rec.gardens.orchids
Conversation: Jungle Feed
Subject: Re: Jungle Feed

 

Ray

Do you reduce the feed rate for pleurophallids & slipper orchids

Keith

 

Garrapata

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Sep 12, 2009, 1:17:43 PM9/12/09
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On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 14:29:35 +0000 (UTC), pak...@usenet.pr.neotoma.org
wrote:

>
>And Keith... there's this wonderful Unix program called 'units'.
>Here's a useful conversion for you...

and for the Unix challenged, google
toolbar also does conversions
--

09=ix

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