Mario -vs- Sonic
Milton W. Kuo
[stuff concerning SMB3 subtle features deleted]
> Another place I find STHH lacking compared to SMB3 is in its' lack of a two
>player mode. I had not played SMB3 as a two player game until well after I had
>mastered it, but when I did I was amazed to find that the strategy of the game
>changes entirely. The mini-Mario Brothers game that you can pull your opponant
>into was at first just another nice little quirk, but quickly became a major
>strategic factor of the game. The map screens take on a whole new signifigance
>as you can now try to control strategic positions, etc.
I forgot about the two play mode on Super Mario Brothers 3 altogether!
Wow! I remember now how fun SMB3 was! Even though I'm a big Sega fan now,
I still think that SMB3 is the funnest game I've ever played BAR NONE. It
is just a shame that Nintendo of America with all their distribution crap
made it so I just couldn't bear owning an NES anymore. The first time I
ever played SMB3 was on a friend's Famicom and I could hardly wait for it
to arrive in the US. Sadly, Nintendo, in their infinite greed, didn't dis-
tribute enough games so I was unable to get it. Worse yet, some mail order
shops were scalping the game for $100! Thoroughly disgusted, I managed to
get rid of my Nintendo and in a few months, got a Mega Drive. Hopefully,
Sega will eventually create a game with as many surprises as the SMB series
but until then, I'm content to play the many excellent titles available and
coming soon for the Mega Drive. As for Nintendo, I will NEVER buy any of
their stuff ever again after all the crap they pulled.
> Generally speaking I feel that as impressive as Sonic is on the surface, the
>Sonic team has not yet mastered the "Art" of video game design to the extent
>that the Mario makers have. Most of Sonic's impressiveness hits you right
>away. Much of the greatness of SMB3 is hidden deep in the game and you have
>to dig to find it's treasures.
You've hit the nail right on the head here. As I mentioned in the pa-
ragraph above, I thought the most fun thing about SMB was finding all the
secrets. Stuff like hidden levels, tricks to turn bricks into coins, and
tons of other neat things. SMB3 also had the neat mini-game where you try
to match three parts of a face for free lives. It was truly unique -- SMB3
had a gameboard scene, the standard SMB action, Mario Brothers action, and
lots of other interesting types of "sub games." In my opinion, SMB3 is re-
markably sophisticated considering the machine it was designed to run on.
It's a truly remarkable game -- substantially better than its predecessors.
Sonic the Hedgehog is a big step forward for Sega. All Sega has to do
is put more surprises like SMB's. The only hidden stuff I found in Sonic
so far have been hidden rooms and hidden items. Sega should have put items
which were more surprising. Like the beanstalk that leads to the coin lad-
en clouds in SMB1!
> Any opposing or supporting comments?
You got my (honest) opinions. Even though I like Sonic, I concede
that SMB3 is better in terms of play value. There were just a lot more
techniques involves in SMB3 and as a result, it was more involving. There
was a lot more to the game than just running around, jumping, and stuff.
If I remember correctly, there were also a sliding attack, swimming scenes
where you could were a frog-suit, and you could also fly if you wore the
raccoon suit. Gee, too bad it's Nintendo that makes the SMB series :(
>Nick Ingegneri
Milton W. Kuo
mil...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Eric Scott Boltz
Comparisons with Mario 3 just aren't valid. If anyone would like to compare
Sonic to the first Mario Brothers then please do. Remember also that
Sega intends to bundle Sonic with every Genesis system. Mario 3 is definitely
a great game, but the fact that Nintendo made more PROFIT off of that one
cartridge than SEGA, NEC and Atari combined last year is a little nauseating.
And it still sells for more than forty bucks!!
Eric
Now if Sega would just drop the price of Genesis to $99 then we could
really see Nintendo squirm.
Milton W. Kuo
>Let's all keep in mind that this is SONIC I - the first!
>Comparisons with Mario 3 just aren't valid. If anyone would like to compare
>Sonic to the first Mario Brothers then please do. Remember also that
>Sega intends to bundle Sonic with every Genesis system.
Point taken. This is the first Sonic game (hopefully not the
last) and it does show a great deal of promise. However, compar-
ing Sonic to SMB3 isn't so unfair, IHMO. After all, SMB3 is run-
ning on the NES. But, if you must compare Sonic with the first
Super Mario Brothers, I still say that Super Mario Brothers has
more surprises. Granted, Sonic the Hedgehog has more visual sur-
prises but I haven't found anything but items hidden in trees and
hidden rooms.
On the other hand, when I used to have an NES, I found many
hidden things in SMB1. There were invisible blocks that had items
much like Sonic has hidden stuff in the trees although SMB is more
subtle, to paraphrase a previous posting. There are also level
warps and other hidden areas in SMB1. These hidden areas are not
always rooms either. There's the beanstalks that take you into
the clouds where there's lots of coins.
I don't know. Maybe it's just a bias I can't get rid of but
I think the SMB is superior to Sonic in execution. To be certain,
SMB's graphics and sound are crude compared to Sonic's but SMB had
something about it which made it very unique. The only thing I
find truly unique in Sonic is the high speed. It's quite inter-
esting (especially in the pinball and starlight levels) but I
really with that Sega put a lot more secret things to find in the
game.
IMHO, Mario beats Sonic by TKO (pun intended :-). Of course,
I look forward to a rematch in Sonic II :-)
>Mario 3 is definitely a great game, but the fact that Nintendo made more
>PROFIT off of that one cartridge than SEGA, NEC and Atari combined last
>year is a little nauseating. And it still sells for more than forty
>bucks!
I couldn't agree with you more here. Around here, Super Mario
Brothers 3 sells for $50 even though it has been out quite a while.
Even though SMB3 is a really great game, I can't see the justifica-
tion for selling an NES 8-bit cartridge (4 Mbits? Maybe less?) for
that amount of money. It should be selling for at most $40.
>Eric
>Now if Sega would just drop the price of Genesis to $99 then we could
>really see Nintendo squirm.
I think that would be Sega's best way to make money. Drop the
price of the Genesis to a ridiculously low price and then burn the
consumer on cartridge sales. After all, more profits are made on
cartridges than the actual unit.
Milton W. Kuo
mil...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Christopher M Songer
>graphics and sound are excellent and it has tons of play value. But seeing
>as how everyone has been raving about it and how much better it is than the
>Mario line, I wanted to say a few things in Mario's defense.
> Sonic seems to be lacking much of the subtlety of SMB3. In SMB3 there are
>so many hidden quirks to be discovered which are secondary to the main quest.
>For example, the White Mushroom House that appears when you collect all the
>coins in certain levels. Or the way you can transform the Hammer Brothers into
>a flying coin ship by getting certain combinations of coins, score, and timer.
> Another place I find STHH lacking compared to SMB3 is in its' lack of a two
>player mode. I had not played SMB3 as a two player game until well after I had
>mastered it, but when I did I was amazed to find that the strategy of the game
>changes entirely. The mini-Mario Brothers game that you can pull your opponant
>into was at first just another nice little quirk, but quickly became a major
>strategic factor of the game. The map screens take on a whole new signifigance as you can now try to control strategic positions, etc.
>Sonic team has not yet mastered the "Art" of video game design to the extent
>that the Mario makers have. Most of Sonic's impressiveness hits you right
>away. Much of the greatness of SMB3 is hidden deep in the game and you have
>to dig to find it's treasures.
>
>
I would have to agree with this impression. Sonic is a SUPER game! there is
no question of that. Never-the-less, it bears comparison to Super Mario
One rather than the later versions if you are speaking to game complexity.
Admittedly, I only played for about two hours, but that was enough time for
me to complete the first two worlds and get to act III on the third world.
(And, by the way, the Third World is AMAZING!!!!!!) I thought this was a
little easier than it should be.
Still, it was really fun to play, and I found it one of the best Gensis
games I have played. If the NES 16 bit system were not so close to release,
the promise that Sonic shows for the Genesis line of games would probably
convince me to buy one. I would hope that future Sonics will show the
depth Nick was refering to in addition to the glitz and fun play that
it already has.
-Chris
Teh Kao Yang
add my two cents in....
I think that SMB3 does have more complexity, is longer, more challenging,
and has more techniques to master. So overall it would probably have more
play value since it is difficult to finish and has so many secrets to
uncover.
Sonic, on the other hand, is in a totally different league from Mario. I
think Sonic would belong better in an arcade than a home system. Why do I
say that? Well because Sonic is like most arcade games.... not too long,
but has amazing graphics and sound. An arcade game will not make any money
if it is like SMB3. It needs awesome visuals to make someone pop a coin in.
In the end, it is hard to say if SMB3 is a better game than Sonic. People
have different opinions as to what is a good game and what is a game that
they would rather own and play. SMB3 is a good game for someone who
wants a very long and challenging game and doesn't really care about sound
and graphics. Sonic, (and most Genesis and Neo Geo games in general)
emphasize graphics over length, and will appeal more to those who would
rather have, to quote from one of Sega's ads, "a true arcade experience."
IF you want to talk about what game is more "fun" to play, I would have to
go with Sonic. FOr me, I find searching for hidden objects boring and
meaningless. How does it contribute to the "funness" of a game?? You just
have to bump or hit into every wall or block you see... it's all luck....
.. is that exciting or "fun"?? I could just ask someone who's already
played the game or look in one of those hint books to find out all the warp
zones and other stuff. Finding all these things are also all trial-and-error,
it doesn't require any of your puzzle-solving skills. And these "secrets"
are all the same stuff... just warp zones and places with more coins....
I also find the controls of Mario to be awkward. I've never gotten
the hang of it, so maybe that's why I don't play it very much. The game is
also a bit too hard for me. I have been spoiled by my Genesis RGB graphics
so much that I can't even stand watching a NES game for too long....
Well this article is getting too long but I will conclude by saying that if
they could only make Sonic a longer game, like using 8 megs, then it will
leave SMB3 in the dust in all categories.
swatek kenneth 66364
>
>coins in certain levels. Or the way you can transform the Hammer Brothers into
>a flying coin ship by getting certain combinations of coins, score, and timer.
>
>
>Nick Ingegneri
Please tell me how to transform the Hammer Brothers into a flying coin ship.
Thanks,
Ken
l...@hpljdw.hpl.hp.com
can add a little more now on the subject.
In article <1991Jul2.0...@agate.berkeley.edu> teh...@earthquake.Berkeley.EDU (Teh Kao Yang) writes:
>I think that SMB3 does have more complexity, is longer, more challenging,
>and has more techniques to master. So overall it would probably have more
>play value since it is difficult to finish and has so many secrets to
>uncover.
No disagreement here, but this is just part of the differences between the
games. Mario is so good in so many ways that it's difficult to keep track of
them all. Certainly the other companies haven't, and even the other people
defending Mario have only mentioned some of the more obvious features of it.
>Sonic, on the other hand, is in a totally different league from Mario. I
>think Sonic would belong better in an arcade than a home system. Why do I
>say that? Well because Sonic is like most arcade games.... not too long,
>but has amazing graphics and sound. An arcade game will not make any money
>if it is like SMB3. It needs awesome visuals to make someone pop a coin in.
This is a really good observation. Sonic really is an arcade game. Of course
the Genesis (not to mention Neo Geo) was primarily designed so that people
could play arcade games at home. And indeed when I bought a Genesis that was
the reason. But Sega has yet to really figure out how to write good games for
a home system; the concentration is still on graphics over content. This
applies even to the RPGs.
For me at least, and I'm probably in a minority in this group, I don't care so
much about "awesome visuals." I loved SMB3's clean colorful graphics, and was
disappointed on seeing screen shots of Super Mario World. But fortunately the
actual game has surprisingly beautiful graphics, not to mention incredible
sound.
>IF you want to talk about what game is more "fun" to play, I would have to
>go with Sonic. FOr me, I find searching for hidden objects boring and
>meaningless. How does it contribute to the "funness" of a game?? You just
>have to bump or hit into every wall or block you see... it's all luck....
>.. is that exciting or "fun"?? I could just ask someone who's already
>played the game or look in one of those hint books to find out all the warp
>zones and other stuff. Finding all these things are also all trial-and-error,
>it doesn't require any of your puzzle-solving skills. And these "secrets"
>are all the same stuff... just warp zones and places with more coins....
I can see you haven't played SMB3 or the earlier ones much. Your comments are
more a description of Sonic. The secret rooms are not in particularly
interesting places, and just contain rings and some items. This is like most
Mario imitation games. Dull dull dull.
In the Mario series, on the other hand, the hidden rooms and so forth are an
integral part of the game, and are placed very cleverly. Certainly some luck
is involved at times, but there are also many clues, some very subtle. The
puzzle-solving aspect of the Mario series is extremely strong, one of its best
points. There is almost no puzzle solving in Sonic or the other imitators.
One of the greatest moments in video games for me was finding the first warp
zone in SMB1. I was playing 1-2, and I thought "wouldn't it be neat if I
could walk on the ceiling". I tried it, and unlike most games even now where
there's very little interaction with the background scenery, it worked! Then
I thought, "I wonder what happens if you go all the way to the right,
bypassing the normal exit?" and what a wonderful surprise it was to see
what's there. If you want to use hint books that's fine, but the experience
of discovering yourself is what's so much fun.
Another very important aspect of the Mario series, and in fact many other
Nintendo-made games, is that much more so than any other games I've played,
the designers love to play psychological tricks on you. They set up
expectations and then dash them to pieces, meanwhile urging you to explore
deeper. A simple example is the warp zone in 4-2, which you might expect
leads to 5-6-7, but which in fact only goes to 5. The best psychological
games were in the original SMB2, unfortunately not released here; the game is
very similar to SMB1 and it depends crucially on having played its predecessor
for setting up the many surprises in it. (To again give a very simple
example, in area 1-2 they have sort of steps set up leading to the ceiling,
welcoming you up there!)
Let me give another example, from the upcoming Super Mario World, and this is
all documented in the game so I won't be giving anything away (there's plenty
more that's a complete surprise!). They've added some simple yet very elegant
devices to get you to explore more. One is that in each area there are 5
"dragon coins"; if you can find all of them you get an extra life. But of
course one or two will be very difficult to find (or get once you find them),
which both tells you more exploration is required, and more skill as well.
The other is that many areas are marked with a red dot rather than the usual
yellow, and this indicates there is a second exit in that area, for which you
must find a key and then the keyhole. Invariably these exits are very hard to
find, both mentally and physically. We had enormous fun trying, and once you
succeed you succeed you get what's perhaps the best possible award: whole new
worlds open up to be explored (and these in turn can help you explore more of
the areas in which you've already been!).
Super Mario is foremost an action game; there are some relaxing scenes in
early stages which help you learn the new techniques (and there are an
enormous number especially in Super Mario World), but later stages have so
much happening that there are many times where you get through but have no
idea how. And Super Mario is foremost an exploration game. The designers
have created a rich and varied world which is a joy to explore. What's more
there are many elements with simple workings, yet the interactions that can be
created with these elements are enormously complex. And they've thought of
many.
>Well this article is getting too long but I will conclude by saying that if
>they could only make Sonic a longer game, like using 8 megs, then it will
>leave SMB3 in the dust in all categories.
Super Mario World is 8 meg, incredibly long, and leaves Sonic in the dust in
all categories. Sega has a lot to learn before they try to compete with
Nintendo's best series. And by then Miyamoto and friends will making Super
Mario 5 or 6, yet another revolutionary game. I can't wait.
John Leo
l...@hpljdw.hpl.hp.com
Edcon Chang
John, Super Mario World (SMB4) is 4 megabits + battery, not 8.
Lawrence Chiu
Todd Bernhard
Nope. You compare today's products with what's available today.
A consumer can buy Sonic or SMB 1/2/3....today. They're not
going to artificially stop themselves from buying the latest
NES game to prove a point.
---todd
In article <88...@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> ebo...@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Eric Scott Boltz) writes:
>Let's all keep in mind that this is SONIC I - the first!
>Comparisons with Mario 3 just aren't valid. If anyone would like to compare
>Sonic to the first Mario Brothers then please do.
>
>Eric
--
Todd Bernhard, Sun Micro, US Field Mktg - Milpitas, CA
408-276-1542 to...@Sun.COM ....!sun!toddb
<my ideas are just that....MY ideas>
(Having the Right to be Wrong does NOT imply the Obligation.)