SNES v.s. Genesis
;A/sF
seemed to have similar graphics and game play. My beef is with the price.
What does the SNES have that the Genesis doesn't to warrent price $40 - $50
above that of the Genesis? I don't think that it does. And, with the amount
of games availible for the Genesis I cannot see paying more money for a lesser
system.
Also, is it true that most games for the 16-bit systems do not require 16 bits
to run them. I've been told that many of the so-called 16-bit games could
run on an 8-bit system. Just wondering.
THANKS
TRAV
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
James Hague
>
>Also, is it true that most games for the 16-bit systems do not require 16 bits
>to run them. I've been told that many of the so-called 16-bit games could
>run on an 8-bit system. Just wondering.
Most games hardly need any processor power. Even games which look
like they would, like Sonic, don't need nearly as much processor speed
as you would think. The internal logic is complex, yes, but not anything
which a slow 8-bit processor would have any trouble with (there are
some exceptions--Populous being one).
The amount of compuation required to run most games pales in
comparison with the vast quantities of graphic data which need
to be shuffled around at high speed. But the graphics processor
takes care of that, not the CPU.
--
James Hague
exu...@exu.ericsson.se
Brian
First of all, I'd like to start out by saying that I am sure
this is a plot. By whom, you ask? I have no idea, but whomever it is
wants us desperately to argue about which machine is better onto
infinity (hell, we all know it's the Genesis) and waste as much time
as possible. Of course, I actually ENJOY these arguments cuz' I KNOW
which is better. ;)
In article <1991Dec30....@cas.org> tj...@cas.org (;A/sF) writes:
>I have played both the SNES and Genesis, and liked both fairly well. They both
>seemed to have similar graphics and game play. My beef is with the price.
>What does the SNES have that the Genesis doesn't to warrent price $40 - $50
>above that of the Genesis? I don't think that it does. And, with the amount
>of games availible for the Genesis I cannot see paying more money for a lesser
>system.
___________________________________________________________
The Nintendo has 1) higher resolution 2) bigger color palatte
3) is able to display more color at one time 4) can use more sprites
on screen 5) slow processor 6) scaling and rotation (only w/o background)
The Genesis is 1) runs twice as fast 2) has more games 3) used
by more people over 16 4) better sound, I THINK. 5) is made by a
company that is not as evil as Nintendo 6) cheaper
But remember, the faster machine may have that as an edge.
The faster your data path, the quicker you can throw up new colors and
"move" your lessor resolution.
Don't listen to those dweebs who say that you should buy the system
that plays the games you like. The games we all like usually poor
coin-op translations that aren't worth the $55 we paid for them. Have
you ever spent $55 on one game at the arcade? Probably not.
_____________________________________________________________
>Also, is it true that most games for the 16-bit systems do not require 16 bits
>to run them. I've been told that many of the so-called 16-bit games could
>run on an 8-bit system. Just wondering.
> THANKS
________________________________________
With the Power Base converter, you can run Sega Master System
carts (and eventually Game Gear). For whatever reason, Nintendo does
not have a converter for their S-NES. I would assume that it is
possible, but likley to be cost prohibitive. Also, remember that chips
are chips and a 16bit does not an 8 make. Next thing you know someone
is going to say that you could run 2 regular 8 bit Nintendo carts on
the 16bit S-NES at the same time. Wow! the S-NES has multi-tasking even!
I don't know. Maybe I'm truly in denial. Should I get rid of
my Genesis and buy a S-NES? Nah!
--
-brian
_______________________________ | __________________________________
/ bhos...@ucs.indiana.edu \|/ "You've had your whole FUCKING life\
| bhos...@iubacs.bitnet | to think things over, what's a few |
\ bhos...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu /|\ minutes more going to do you now?" /
Douglas S. Rand
I have played both the SNES and Genesis, and liked both fairly well. They both
seemed to have similar graphics and game play. My beef is with the price.
What does the SNES have that the Genesis doesn't to warrent price $40 - $50
above that of the Genesis? I don't think that it does. And, with the amount
of games availible for the Genesis I cannot see paying more money for a lesser
system.
It's called marketing. Nintendo is selling SNES for what it thinks it
can get. If it has trouble finding buyers then the price will go
down. Sega probably lowered the price on Genesis (it was $200)
to maintain a competative edge against the SNES when it came out.
Genesis does, of course, have many more cartridges out today. How
could it be otherwise? I believe that buying the SNES makes sense
if you want the kind of games that will be available on it, the same
goes for Genesis. IMHO having a longer term view is of value here. I
happen to believe that Nintendo is a better marketer and will garner
a similar share in the 16 bit market to that it holds in the 8 bit
market.
As far as the abilities. Eh. I don't care about the SNES's mode 7
(actually I wish the developers were a little less excited about it,
I'm getting tired of the background zooming up at me). The SNES has
a little better specs on graphics, and quite a few people believe
slightly worse specs on the CPU. Who knows. There is a fairly
even handed discussion of what specs are public in Video Games and
Computer Entertainment (I get this title right?) this month.
Also, is it true that most games for the 16-bit systems do not require 16 bits
to run them. I've been told that many of the so-called 16-bit games could
run on an 8-bit system. Just wondering.
No, they couldn't. You don't need the CPU so much as the
graphics engines on the 16 bit machines. Think of "16-bit" as a
label like "small", "medium" and "large". While you could pair
an advanced graphics controller with a 8 bit CPU, the processing
wouldn't be there, some even would say that it isn't there for the
SNES with a narrow data path to ROM. In any case, you need the
extra processing for the larger number of calculations and greater
quantities of data movement that the 16 bit games require.
--
Douglas S. Rand
Internet: <dsr...@mitre.org>
Snail: MITRE, Burlington Road, Bedford, MA
Disclaimer: MITRE might agree with me - then again...
Amateur Radio: KC1KJ
Dave Meeks
>seemed to have similar graphics and game play. My beef is with the price.
>What does the SNES have that the Genesis doesn't to warrent price $40 - $50
>above that of the Genesis? I don't think that it does. And, with the amount
>of games availible for the Genesis I cannot see paying more money for a lesser
>system.
>
>Also, is it true that most games for the 16-bit systems do not require 16 bits
>to run them. I've been told that many of the so-called 16-bit games could
>run on an 8-bit system. Just wondering.
Just as a point of interest, though I am a Genesis fan and have wondered why
I would pay more for the SNES as well, remember that with the SNES you get
two controllers, with the Genesis just 1. An additional controller costs
about $20. So, it would cost me $149 + $19.99 for a controller, which is
$169, for the Genesis to get the comparable set-up as the SNES, which runs
$200. So, it is not as bad as it looks, but still $30 more. All this for
an inferior CPU and fewer and, in general, poorer games. The SNES has some
things that could make it a great system, between it's specialized scaling
and such, as well as all of it's potential software development routes.
But, at this point, I think the problem comes down to one thing...
As Flavor Flav would say... "Don't Believe the Hype", cuz' it looks like
the SNES is more hype the anything else.
>
>
> THANKS
> TRAV
>
>
>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
--
David T. Meeks || "Let us not go gently to the endless
VMark Software, Inc. || winter night" - Rush
uvmark!da...@merk.com || "Alive at both ends, but a little dead
...uunet!merk.com!uvmark!davem || in the middle" - Genesis
Michael Portuesi
>Genesis does, of course, have many more cartridges out
>today. How could it be otherwise? I believe that buying
>the SNES makes sense if you want the kind of games that
>will be available on it, the same goes for Genesis. IMHO
>having a longer term view is of value here. I happen to
>believe that Nintendo is a better marketer and will garner
>a similar share in the 16 bit market to that it holds in the
>8 bit market.
While I agree that you should make your buying decision
on the kind and quality of games that are available for a
particular system, I think you may be wrong about Nintendo
dominating the 16-bit game console market. Articles that
I have read recently in both Fortune and BusinessWeek
magazine (and maybe even the local newspaper) are saying
that the Genesis has been outselling the SNES this holiday
season, and that SNES sales have been well below
Nintendo's expectations.
The Fortune article blamed Nintendo's delay in introducing
the SNES to the U.S. marketplace for the problem. By
delaying its intro until they had milked the 8-bit market
for all its worth, Nintendo allowed Sega to come in and
establish themselves in the marketplace. Sega still does
not have the same amount of name recognition as Nintendo,
but they have successfully established their name in the
marketplace. In recent months, Sega's stock has been
climing rapidly, while Nintendo's has been falling.
This is not to say that the SNES is a failure -- far from it.
Nintendo will no doubt sell lots of systems, and there will
be plenty of software support. But it appears that it is too
late for them to dominate the 16-bit market to the extent
they did with the 8-bit market. In my opinion, this is
nothing but good news -- Nintendo finally has a real
competitor in the video game marketplace, and the only
people who stand to benefit from this competition are us
customers, whether we own Nintendo or Sega.
--
Michael Portuesi Silicon Graphics, Inc. port...@sgi.com
Craig Gruneberg
The price differential shrinks after you buy a second controller for the
Genesis.
--
Craig Gruneberg***[c...@cs.psu.edu]***PennState University
john gay
>
> While I agree that you should make your buying decision
> on the kind and quality of games that are available for a
> particular system, I think you may be wrong about Nintendo
> dominating the 16-bit game console market. Articles that
> I have read recently in both Fortune and BusinessWeek
> magazine (and maybe even the local newspaper) are saying
> that the Genesis has been outselling the SNES this holiday
> season, and that SNES sales have been well below
> Nintendo's expectations.
Just one data point on Genesis sales vs. SNES sales:
When I asked my nephew what he wanted for Christmas he said Sega Genesis.
I asked him about the new SNES (just for reference I would not buy him
a SNES because of Nintendo's past business practices). He said he didn't
want a SNES because it couldn't run any of his NES games. He also thought
they were stupid for doing this. He said that all his friends had or
wanted Genesis machines. He is 12 and all his friends are 11-13.
When I went shopping for a Genesis for Christmas I had trouble finding one.
It took me 3-4 days to locate one. Every place that I went was getting in
15-20 a day and selling 15-20 a day. They could have been selling twice
that. All these places also were selling SNES machines. They all had
several in stock ( course maybe they were getting 50 a day, I didn't ask ).
Every one of the people that I asked that were working at the places that
I looked (all males, looked to be 16-22) said that they would (and all had)
buy a Genesis over a SNES. Most could list 7-10 games that they owned and
2-3 that they would highly recommend. I finally got a Genesis at Babbages,
last one of their daily shipment. I bought it at noon. About 30 seconds
after I grabbed it off the shelf a boy about 8-10 came by asking if they
had any Genesis left. I asked the guy who wrung up the sale how many they
had gotten in that day - 16.
I don't think that Nintendo can catch up in the 16 bit market. I don't know
anybody with a SNES, but quite a few with Genesis. If my nephew is any kind
of indication, even the kids are fed up with Nintendo (not to mention the
parents). Also, if my nephew's friends are any indication, all the other
kids either want or have Genesis - it is the new, cool machine to own. If
all your friends own Genesis and you get a SNES then who are you going to
trade games with or borrow games from. I don't know about SNES games, but
I do know that Blockbuster's does rent Genesis games and (according to my
nephew) Genesis game machines. I think Nintendo blew it big time.
john gay. jg...@digi.lonestar.org
"A third theory [on the creation of the Earth] is the one offered by my old
theological buddy Bobby Joe Dearing, who speculates that the world was
originally created as a science fair project. "The problem," says Bobby
Joe, "is that God made it the night before he had to turn it in, and he's
probably going to get a 'D' on it."
- John Anders, Dallas Morning News Columnist
James Hague
>
>I don't think that Nintendo can catch up in the 16 bit market. I don't know
>anybody with a SNES, but quite a few with Genesis. If my nephew is any kind
>of indication, even the kids are fed up with Nintendo (not to mention the
>parents).
I think it is very hard for a new product to get rolling in an already
established market, especially when it doesn't offer anything new
and/or different. I think the bottom line is that both systems are
pretty much equal when it comes to playing games. Both systems are
also well-advertised and widely available. The price on the Genesis
box is $50 less and it is sitting next to an impressive rack of games.
And as John mentioned, it has word of mouth behind it. The public
doesn't care about the technology, as witnessed by the continued
dominance of the Game Boy in the portable market.
IMO, the whole battle between these two systems is stupid, as they
are both just more of the same. You can get scroll-to-the-right-
and-kill-the-boss platform games for both systems and you can get
scrolling-power-up-kill-the-boss shooters for both systems and you can
get beat-up-ethnic-minorities-in-the-street games for both systems.
When you weed out all the derivative "let's make a quick buck" garbage
which EGM goes wild over, then there really isn't all that much to get
excited about. Some racing games maybe, incrementally improved sports
games, and some standouts like Populous, Klax, and Pilotwings.
Maybe I'm just getting picky, but it has been a while since any game
has really been worth getting excited about. There was a lot of hype
about Actraiser, and it ended up being Yet Another Platform game,
albeit one with pretty nifty graphics. And everyone's getting worked
up about the Mega-CD, though it seems the initial games are just more
shooters and such.
Just some pointless ramblings...
--
James Hague
exu...@exu.ericsson.se
Michael Portuesi
Maybe I'm just getting picky, but it has been a while
There was a lot of hype about Actraiser, and it ended up
being Yet Another Platform game, albeit one with pretty
nifty graphics. And everyone's getting worked up about
the Mega-CD, though it seems the initial games are just
more shooters and such.
Well, I'm pretty excited about Toejam and Earl...it's loads
of fun to play, has an original play mechanic, has lots of
style, and some of the best sound effects I've heard out of
the Genesis. Friends of mine who are not into video games,
but have played Toejam and Earl on my system started
asking me questions about buying a Genesis ("How much
is it? Can I make it work with my Mac monitor?")
I agree with you though, that so far the Mega-CD looks
like a lot of hype. In fact, according to Mega Play,
the first batch of games for the Mega-CD are going to
be released here in the U.S. as 8-Mbit carts for the
Genesis (Sol-Feace and Heavy Nova are two that were
mentioned). I'm sure the carts will lose something in the
translation, but it seems pretty indicative that the
cartridge games and the Mega-CD titles aren't
fundamentally different.
m.
Christopher M Songer
>(Matheus Arcuarius MKA Matt Stum) writes:
>>ba...@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:
[Stuff about SNES && Genesis and Slowdown]
I own both Systems. They are distinct. The SNES is better than the
Genesis in sound and color. This means if you have a nice TV and a stereo
it pays you to own a SNES. Looking at Castlevania IV for the SNES shows
a really fun game for the SNES that could not be done on the Genesis.
The sound is amazing! The detail, depth and quality of the graphics requires
the extra color depth of the SNES.
The Genesis has shown itself better than the SNES in the ability to
move large numbers of objects. ThunderForce III is a super game for the
Genesis that could probably not be done on the SNES.
Nintendo is also good at lining up companies to write good software
for the system. The introductory line of software for the SNES is MUCH
better than the introductory Genesis line was. People who play the SNES
for several hours, see it slow down and then proclaim it a dead machine
are being silly. The SNES has merits the Gensis does not have. Playing
on a normal TV, the choice of Genesis or SNES is a question of what kind
of games you like to play. The Genesis lineup suffers from an inordinate
number of shooters and Altered Beasties. The SNES (in Final Fantasy II)
already has an RPG better than all the Genesis RPG's I've played (PS II,
PS III, Might && Magic, Super Hydlyde). On the other side, the SNES
will probably never produce as fast moving a shooter as the Genesis. If
one has "Joe TV" one needs to decide how much this style of game means
to them.
If one has a stereo that is close to the TV and a recent model "nice"
TV, the SNES becomes the much stronger contender. The difference between
the Genesis and SNES hooked to this type of system is astounding. On a
new TV one can see the stunning images the SNES produces. On a stereo
the Genesis sounds good, the SNES sounds amazing! On the proper system
the SNES produces a game which has unmatched graphics and sound. (Not
owning a Neo Geo, I don't feel qualified to comment about it.)
In all the two systems are different but probably equivalent. The
price, apparently higher for the SNES ($190 around here) gets closer when
you add the price of a controller and stereo jack to the Genesis($170 total
system). The bottom line -- if you are buying, rent the systems, hook
them up to your TV/Stereo and decide for yourself. The net seems Genesis
biased, the goofey video rags seem SNES baised. I own them both -- I
don't really have a bias. They are both good, fun game machines.
Sincerely Tired of My System's Better Posts,
-Chris
broadsword!ch...@ecn.purdue.edu
Bryan Parker
--
br...@sal.lonestar.org
TurboCit Salamandria -- (214) 238-5539
Rocky J Giovinazzo
>anybody with a SNES, but quite a few with Genesis. If my nephew is any kind
>of indication, even the kids are fed up with Nintendo (not to mention the
>parents). Also, if my nephew's friends are any indication, all the other
>kids either want or have Genesis - it is the new, cool machine to own. If
>all your friends own Genesis and you get a SNES then who are you going to
>trade games with or borrow games from. I don't know about SNES games, but
>I do know that Blockbuster's does rent Genesis games and (according to my
>nephew) Genesis game machines. I think Nintendo blew it big time.
I do agree that Genesis has established themselves much better, but
I wonder if your "neighborhood" just happens to be exceptionally
Genesis dominated. I know 3 Genesis owners (2 for 1+ years, 1 a new owner)
and 2 SNES.owners. The Genesis people happen to be in their early 20's
and the SNES's are about 10.
Also, I haven't been to Blockbuster lately, but 2 video stores I
recently visited had about equal numbers of Genesis and SNES cartridges
rented. (I suppose however that one could argue that SNES cartridges have
this high rental rate because it just came out.)
Rocky Giovinazzo
Rocky J Giovinazzo
In article <1991Dec30....@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> you write:
[stuff deleted]
> With the Power Base converter, you can run Sega Master System
>carts (and eventually Game Gear). For whatever reason, Nintendo does
>not have a converter for their S-NES. I would assume that it is
>possible, but likley to be cost prohibitive. Also, remember that chips
>are chips and a 16bit does not an 8 make. Next thing you know someone
>is going to say that you could run 2 regular 8 bit Nintendo carts on
>the 16bit S-NES at the same time. Wow! the S-NES has multi-tasking even!
> I don't know. Maybe I'm truly in denial. Should I get rid of
>my Genesis and buy a S-NES? Nah!
Unless I've got things mixed up, the SNES uses a 65816 chip which
handles both 8 and 16 bits right? This is also the chip used in the
Apple IIGS architecture which runs both 16 bit software and old 8 bit Apple II
software.
(Also, when SNES came out in Japan a few years ago, there was a
converter -- so I was told by a Japanese internet user-- that allows it to
run NES games. If this wasn't just a rumour, then I suppose we can blame
marketing for not getting it here in the US yet.)
Rocky Giovinazzo
Rob Laddish
> The price differential shrinks after you buy a second controller for the
> Genesis.
Yeah. Also, the A/V cable for the genesis is separate ($15 including tax)
and the silly thing doesn't put out stereo! The A/V cable is mono only. I
really enjoy playing (some!) SNES games with the sound coming out my stereo.
I was disapointed about the genesis cable. (However, when I'm not so lazy, I
might wire up the headphone output to my stereo. I just want to make sure that
I don't zap my stereo inputs)
IMHO, I've seen real stinkers (sound and all) for both systems, as well
as some pretty good games. I have both, so I can buy the games I like the best
for either system.
Rob
---------___----------------------------------------------------------
/ / Robert Laddish AT&T: 707-577-3767
HEWLETT/hp/PACKARD HP Santa Rosa, Ca. Telnet: 1-577-3767
/__/ mail stop 4USQ ro...@hpnmd.hp.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian
>john gay writes:
>>I don't think that Nintendo can catch up in the 16 bit market. I don't know
>>anybody with a SNES, but quite a few with Genesis. If my nephew is any kind
>>of indication, even the kids are fed up with Nintendo (not to mention the
>>parents).
>are both just more of the same. You can get scroll-to-the-right-
>and-kill-the-boss platform games for both systems and you can get
>scrolling-power-up-kill-the-boss shooters for both systems and you can
>get beat-up-ethnic-minorities-in-the-street games for both systems.
>When you weed out all the derivative "let's make a quick buck" garbage
>which EGM goes wild over, then there really isn't all that much to get
>excited about. Some racing games maybe, incrementally improved sports
>games, and some standouts like Populous, Klax, and Pilotwings.
>Maybe I'm just getting picky, but it has been a while since any game
>has really been worth getting excited about. There was a lot of hype
Amen! I thought I loved video games, as I frequented the
arcades a lot in my youth (mid-eighties) and then later on. So I went
out and bought a Genesis when it first came out. I hardly ever play
it. For some reason, every cart that comes out is just like the
previous. And they're all over-priced. Now I've got a Lynx so that I
can play my favorite arcade games at home, but the screen is too small
and the game play just isn't the same. How much money did I spend on
an arcade game I liked? $10? After that I got bored. Now I have to
spend $50 for a genesis game or $35-40 for a Lynx. I'm over it all.
Has anyone ever heard of I, Robot or Tempest being ported over
to some home machine? I've got a beta version of Tempest for the Mac
that kicks butt, but it's only 5 or 8 levels long. If I could just
find those games in some arcade somewhere, I wouldn't care about carts.
david r watters
>The price differential shrinks after you buy a second controller for the
>Genesis.
When you get a system that includes 2 controllers, you obviously pay for both as
part of the system price.
For this reason, I am greatful the genesis didn't come with a second pad. I spent
that money in a much better way... the arcade powerstick.
Eventually when SNES owners buy a joystick, if they wish, once p.o.s. thumpad
controller will gather dust.
David
Harry Herman
>Also, I haven't been to Blockbuster lately, but 2 video stores I
>recently visited had about equal numbers of Genesis and SNES cartridges
>rented. (I suppose however that one could argue that SNES cartridges have
>this high rental rate because it just came out.)
>Rocky Giovinazzo
I have been trying to rent Castelvania IV since 12/24, and have called
Blockbuster three or four times a day, and either told that it was due
back, or that it had already been returned and checked back out.
I have also been to Blockbuster 4 or 5 times between 12/26 and 1/2, and
have never seen more than 2 SNES games on the shelves, and one of those
is always Super Mario World (which presumably would only be rented by
somebody renting the SNES base system). When I suggested to a clerk
that maybe they should carry more than one copy of each title, he claimed
that "Everybody got a SNES for Christmas, so no matter how many copies
we had of the games, they would all be checked out."
--
------------------------------------------------
Harry Herman Corpane Industries, Inc.
UUCP: her...@corpane.uucp
Internet: herman%cor...@uunet.uu.net
Harry Herman
>Rocky Giovinazzo
I have called Nintendo's Customer Service number, and been told that no
converter has been released because they intend to continue supporting the
8-bit system "forever", including new games AND new peripherals. He also
claimed they were going to include the adapter with all the base systems,
but figured anybody who wanted NES games, probably already had a NES, so
would not want an adapter, so they did not include it, in order to keep
the base system price down. On another occasion, I was told that no decision
had been made on whether to release one.
All those comments sound to me like marketing decisions, not technical
decisions. So, if you want one, call Nintendo and tell them.
Elf
$55, is nothing, I bet some of the local kids spend that much every other
week, I know theres been weeks when I've spent $20-$30 on SF2
I've probably spent about $300-$400 on sf2 this year (school year)
and about half that much on sf1, I don't want to think about how much
I'll spend on sf3...
-Elf
Tommy Szeto
>
> I have also been to Blockbuster 4 or 5 times between 12/26 and 1/2, and
> have never seen more than 2 SNES games on the shelves, and one of those
> is always Super Mario World (which presumably would only be rented by
> somebody renting the SNES base system). When I suggested to a clerk
> that maybe they should carry more than one copy of each title, he claimed
> that "Everybody got a SNES for Christmas, so no matter how many copies
> we had of the games, they would all be checked out."
Isn't this something they should capitalize on?!?!
I just visited West Coast Videos in Boston (formerly Blockbuster) and saw that
they had many SNES carts for rent, including duplicates (up to 3) of the more
popular ones like UN Squadron, Final Fight, etc. They even had Ultraman and a
few of the less known ones as well. I saw Castlevania IV and SG&G, but decided to
rent UN Squadron and Super Darius Twin because I was in a mood for a shooter.
--
+-----------------------------------------------+
| Tommy Szeto | tsz...@sneezy.ts.stratus.com |
+-----------------------------------------------+
| "Be excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted |
+-----------------------------------------------+
Brian Sullivan
of a vacuum, and some information is conflicting (some people have a
problem with the slowdown, others do not), and this raises a question.
I can think of no type of game which has more sprites in simultaneous
motion than a football game. With the potential of 22 sprites in motion
simultaneously, is there any slowdown exhibited?
---
Brian Sullivan
su...@cray.com
Michael Portuesi
Who says it's the sprites that cause the slowdown?
It could be due to lots of other things.
There's an article about the internals of the Super NES
in this month's Video Games and Computer Entertainment.
There are several interesting aspects of the SNES design
that could affect its performance in different situations.
Both the internal RAM and ROM run at three different
clock rates, depending on which banks of memory you
are selecting. The CPU can talk to the graphics hardware
only during the video blanking interval. The
graphics coprocessor offers several different display modes,
some of which may use more processing cycles and/or
memory bandwidth than others. The sprite generator
can produce sprites in several different sizes, all of which
use up memory bandwidth in varying amounts.
In short, unless you have more complete hardware specs
for the system, or have source code for the game in
question, it's really hard to tell where the source of the
problem may be.
If you are concerned about "slowdown" problems, your
best advice is to try before you buy.
James Hague
>
>The sprite generator
>can produce sprites in several different sizes, all of which
>use up memory bandwidth in varying amounts.
Something to keep in mind is that you don't get anything for
free. Upping the resolution and having a zillion colors and
sprites will cost you, one way or the other. All that data
has to be shuffled around somewhow.
>In short, unless you have more complete hardware specs
>for the system, or have source code for the game in
>question, it's really hard to tell where the source of the
>problem may be.
Bingo. This problem is much too difficult to analyze for anyone who
hasn't actually written game code the the system. Computers (and video
games) are not just a set of discrete parts, the different components
work together in complex ways. Saying one system is better because it
has a faster clock speed or the like is just way off base.
Back to the games...
--
James Hague
exu...@exu.ericsson.se
Erica Lane
number of sprites is exceeded. This effect can be best observed if you
can get Sonic the Hedgehog into debug mode, and add jumping fish
until you notice Sonic moving more slowly
The number of sprites on screen appears in the Time field in
the upper left corner of the screen.
PS Can someon email me the debug and level select button sequences? I seem to
have forgotten them...
***** email replies to al...@maya.mit.edu !!!!! *****
Harry Herman
>In article <1992Jan04.1...@corpane.uucp>, her...@corpane.uucp (Harry Herman) writes:
>>
>> I have also been to Blockbuster 4 or 5 times between 12/26 and 1/2, and
>> have never seen more than 2 SNES games on the shelves, and one of those
>> is always Super Mario World (which presumably would only be rented by
>> somebody renting the SNES base system). When I suggested to a clerk
>> that maybe they should carry more than one copy of each title, he claimed
>> that "Everybody got a SNES for Christmas, so no matter how many copies
>> we had of the games, they would all be checked out."
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Isn't this something they should capitalize on?!?!
I thought so too, but the clerk's attitude during the conversation was so
lousy that I decided not to point out that they carry 10-50 copies of
popular movies for the same reason.
>I just visited West Coast Videos in Boston (formerly Blockbuster) and saw that
>they had many SNES carts for rent, including duplicates (up to 3) of the more
>popular ones like UN Squadron, Final Fight, etc. They even had Ultraman and a
>few of the less known ones as well. I saw Castlevania IV and SG&G, but decided to
>rent UN Squadron and Super Darius Twin because I was in a mood for a shooter.
If I go to Blockbuster this weekend and they still have most of the games
rented out, I will talk to the manager about getting more copies, and point
out that they are losing lots of money in rentals from people who want to
rent and can't.
>--
>+-----------------------------------------------+
>| Tommy Szeto | tsz...@sneezy.ts.stratus.com |
>+-----------------------------------------------+
>| "Be excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted |
>+-----------------------------------------------+
--
John Ryder
[stuff deleted about slowdown in Sonic the Hedgehog]
>PS Can someon email me the debug and level select button sequences? I seem to
>have forgotten them...
Could somebody *post* this information again, or repost an FAQ article that
contains the information? I'm new to this group, and I've seen numerous
postings providing info on entering debug mode (for Sonic), but none that
discuss entering the level select mode. I've seen numerous requests for this
information, so I know I'm not the only one who'd like to have it. Thanks.
John Ryder - Tellabs Inc.
Dave Arlington
In article <1992Jan8.1...@athena.mit.edu>, erd...@athena.mit.edu (Erica Lane)
writes:
|> The Genesis system will slow down considerably if a certain
|> number of sprites is exceeded. This effect can be best observed if you
|> can get Sonic the Hedgehog into debug mode, and add jumping fish
|> until you notice Sonic moving more slowly
|>
but until very recently I hadn't noticed it. (I think because the slowdown
probably still isn't as slow as my reflexes! :-)) But when I rented Marvel
Land (which is an enjoyable fun game anyway) is when I first some real
SERIOUS slowdown, slowdown that even affected game play. I forget which level
it was on but there was a lot of things jumping around at the time.
But that's the only game I ever saw it in myself.
"Remember, save the planet, defy authority, and watch your cholesterol!"-PLCL
"Nulla Quaestio!" Dave Arlington
Brian Bishop
>
>There's an article about the internals of the Super NES
>in this month's Video Games and Computer Entertainment.
>There are several interesting aspects of the SNES design
>that could affect its performance in different situations.
>Both the internal RAM and ROM run at three different
>clock rates, depending on which banks of memory you
>are selecting. The CPU can talk to the graphics hardware
>only during the video blanking interval. The
>graphics coprocessor offers several different display modes,
>some of which may use more processing cycles and/or
>memory bandwidth than others. The sprite generator
I noticed this when I got Radical Psycho Machines. It is clearly
higher resolution than SMW and flickers like interlace (yes, I AM an
Amiga owner...).
Also, could someone please state clearly the SNES - S- Video deal?
Do you need a special cable, what is that video type anyway, and is it
worth getting? I was dispensing free advice at the Eletronic Boutique
the other day, and all I could tell a guy was 'yes, the SNES can
generate that s-video mode your Sony TV has'.....
--
Brian Bishop, Software Engineer, Zyga Corporation (br...@grebyn.com)
"There on his tombstone, so bare and bold / The words are clear and strong /
This one is for the eyes of the other dogs to come."
Mike Arms
>
>In article <1992Jan8.1...@athena.mit.edu>, erd...@athena.mit.edu (Erica Lane)
>writes:
>|> The Genesis system will slow down considerably if a certain
>|> number of sprites is exceeded.
>
>but until very recently I hadn't noticed it. (I think because the slowdown
>probably still isn't as slow as my reflexes! :-)) But when I rented Marvel
>Land (which is an enjoyable fun game anyway) is when I first some real
>SERIOUS slowdown, slowdown that even affected game play. I forget which level
>it was on but there was a lot of things jumping around at the time.
>
> But that's the only game I ever saw it in myself.
I have seen a slow down on the Sega Genesis. A prime example is with
the game, MUSHA. When you get to about the fifth level, you start getting
lots of enemies, shots, dumb missiles, and seeking missiles on the screen.
The slowdown is very pronounced but does not usually last very long as
your firepower "cleanses" the screen by vaporizing most of them. Even
the "canyon-run" level where you have to fly between the big rocks
across your path, there is an enemy that is snake-like. It is composed of
lots of little pieces that move snake-like toward you firing. This thing
always casues slowdown as soon as it appears.
Another example of Genesis slowdown is with the game, Forgotten Worlds.
In some of the later levels, the number of things moving on the screen
again is quite numerous and slowdown occurs.
I have seen slight slowdown with the Genesis game, Hellfire, when I'm
not killing things fast enough and I let too much get on the screen.
In each of these, the slowdown is very noticable. Fortunately, it does
not tend to last long as it stops when enough items are cleared from
the screen. And usually, gameplay is not adversely affected by the
slowdown (i.e. the slowdown is easily adapted to and no commands are lost).
I have not played a SNES yet to compare the slowdowns.
--
Mike Arms
uucp: ...{ucbvax | gatech}!unmvax!sandia!marms
InterNet: unmvax.unm.edu!sandia!marms
Mike Arms
>
>Could somebody *post* this information again, or repost an FAQ article that
>contains the information? I'm new to this group, and I've seen numerous
>postings providing info on entering debug mode (for Sonic), but none that
>discuss entering the level select mode. I've seen numerous requests for this
>information, so I know I'm not the only one who'd like to have it. Thanks.
>
>John Ryder - Tellabs Inc.
I have a brand new Genesis, bought (12/22/91) right before Christmas.
It does have the "..licensed by Sega..." message at boot-up for all
carts.
To bring up the Sonic Level-Select screen:
------------------------------------------
At the title screen where Sonic appears through the title logo and
signals with his index finger a "#1" sign, hit Up, Down, Left, Right.
It should chime with a little bell sound. Then hold down the A button
and press Start. You should then be presented with a screen that lets
you listen to the sound effects, or start at any stage including the
Special Zone. Later, whenever you are back at the title screen without
turning off the power, you may invoke the Level-Select screen by simply
hitting A+Start.
Bryan Parker
Jim Jagielski
>In article <1992Jan8.1...@athena.mit.edu>, erd...@athena.mit.edu (Erica Lane)
>writes:
>|> The Genesis system will slow down considerably if a certain
>|> number of sprites is exceeded. This effect can be best observed if you
>|> can get Sonic the Hedgehog into debug mode, and add jumping fish
>|> until you notice Sonic moving more slowly
>|>
> I know people have said that the Genesis can experience serious slowdown,
>but until very recently I hadn't noticed it. (I think because the slowdown
>probably still isn't as slow as my reflexes! :-)) But when I rented Marvel
>Land (which is an enjoyable fun game anyway) is when I first some real
>SERIOUS slowdown, slowdown that even affected game play. I forget which level
>it was on but there was a lot of things jumping around at the time.
> But that's the only game I ever saw it in myself.
In 'Streets of Rage', I once-in-a-blue-moon experience some slowdown,
invariably when the 'crazy juggler' is on-screen and there are lots of other
bad dudes.
Never seen it any other time...
--
==============================================================================
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
Jim Jagielski NASA/GSFC, Code 711.4
j...@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov Greenbelt, MD 20771
"If we took the bones out, it wouldn't be crunchy now would it?"
Chuck Machala
>su...@cray.com (Brian Sullivan) writes:
>> I'm trying to gauge the degree of the alleged SNES slowdown in somewhat
>> of a vacuum, and some information is conflicting (some people have a
>> problem with the slowdown, others do not), and this raises a question.
>>
>> I can think of no type of game which has more sprites in simultaneous
>> motion than a football game. With the potential of 22 sprites in motion
>> simultaneously, is there any slowdown exhibited?
>>
>> ---
>> Brian Sullivan
>> su...@cray.com
>
>Well, football for SNES hasn't come out yet!
You're wrong. John Madden football has been out for two months and
suffers no slowdown.
--
Suspicion Breeds Confidence
Chuck Machala Texas Instruments
David Johnson
The slow down is actually interesting to watch. At least for that game, if
it did not slow down under that condition you are dead meat anyway.
Isao Takeda
Speaking of Pit Figher, I am MAJORLY disappointed with the Genesis
version of Pit Fighter. What makes Pit Fighter a great game is the
distinctively funky background musical tunes. On the Genesis version,
they sounded more like the SMS (NES) style beeps & blips 8-bit beepers!
Arcade Pit Fighter really pumps me up, makes me sweat, and makes me pant
hard. Genesis Pit Fighter makes me chicken out in front of public and
run away from the enemy (opponent). This is when I learned not to buy
an arcade-converted game for a home system for the rest of my life.
There hasn't been a SINGLE arcade-converted home system game better than
the original arcade version. (Maybe Strider came close, and that is
only `close'.) I enjoy playing Genesis games made FOR the Genesis
system hardware. Likewise for TG-CD. If I want to play arcade games, I
just go to arcade! If there is no arcade nearby, I would buy the REAL
arcade games.
IST
Ian Finch
>
> In 'Streets of Rage', I once-in-a-blue-moon experience some slowdown,
> invariably when the 'crazy juggler' is on-screen and there are lots of other
> bad dudes.
>
things he is juggling. That causes slowdown. It's slightly more frequent
than once-in-a-blue-moon, but I don't see what the fuss about slowdown is!
Hey, even Street Fighter II has got slowdown!
Cheers,
Ian
The WEZ
>
>You're wrong. John Madden football has been out for two months and
>suffers no slowdown.
>--
>Suspicion Breeds Confidence
>
>Chuck Machala Texas Instruments
I've talked to a friend of mine who has been playing Madden
football on the Genesis for about a year. His roomate got a SNES
and it's version of Madden football. He said it was way to slow to
play after playing the Genesis... I've heard similar stories from
others.
Also, the Wall Street Journal reported that the Genesis
sales doubled the SNES sales over Christmas. I tried to find a
Genesis on Dec.26-27 and no store in San Diego county had one...
Just some tidbits...
Steve Wilson
Peter A. Cohen
>In article <machala.694984601@romulus> mac...@romulus.ti.com (Chuck Machala )
writes:
>>
>>You're wrong. John Madden football has been out for two months and
>>suffers no slowdown.
> I've talked to a friend of mine who has been playing Madden
>football on the Genesis for about a year. His roomate got a SNES
>and it's version of Madden football. He said it was way to slow to
>play after playing the Genesis... I've heard similar stories from
>others.
>
around for a while, no?
> Also, the Wall Street Journal reported that the Genesis
>sales doubled the SNES sales over Christmas. I tried to find a
>Genesis on Dec.26-27 and no store in San Diego county had one...
>Just some tidbits...
Same problem here- the local Electronics Boutique gets them in a dozen at a
time, and their usually gone in a day. Lechmere, a local home equipment
department store, can't move them too easily, mainly because their salespeople
aren't trained enough to sell them effectively. Toys R Us always have them,
but TRU are HUMUNGOUS anyway. I had to wait until the first week in January
before I could find one.
- Peter
The WEZ
>around for a while, no?
Yeah, Madden '92 has been out for about two months, but of
course it sold unexpectably well that EA ran out before Christmas,
but they just got 18,000 more from the factory. They still havn't been
shipped yet, though so of course Madden '92 is still unavilable to purchase
right now (as of yesterday, anyway) in San Diego and L.A. as well.
They are supposed to be shipping them out to the dealers now
though... Finally!
Steve Wilson