What's wrong with Sega RPG translations?
SR Dominguez
Okay, there's something I don't understand about this newsgroup. This
fanatical preference for Working Designs RPGs over Sega in-house RPGs, to
the point where people would prefer a WD game to a Sega game even if the
Sega game was much better. I swear, if Phantasy Star V came out, half the
people on the group would swear blind that they'd rather be playing Albert
Odyssey, because Working Designs did it. Whenever a new game comes out in
Japan, it's "Oh Vic! Please translate this RPG! Sega will kill it if they
do!".
The reason I'm so puzzled is that I've played every WD game in existance,
plus every Sega game and I can't see a problem. Sega let the odd bit of
Japlish slip in, but WD miss words from sentences on occasion (look at
Dragon Force where Mikhal tells captives that he wants to join his own army)
and nobody takes issue. In my mind, Sega did a wonderful translation of
Dark Savior, the excellent storyline to which saved the game from some pretty
frustrating gameplay.
If we're talking about being able to relate to characters in these games,
well I have one thing to say. Chaz from PSIV is perhaps my least favourite
RPG character of all time, but I can bet that he'd be about ten times worse
with Working Designs dialogue. I'd liken how he'd turn out to NEC's
American interpretation of Prince Logan from Dragon Slayer. There'd
certainly be better dubbing, yes, but the character would probably be the
same (only worse, what with Chaz's moralistic overtones).
Oh, and Nall's my second least favourite American interpretation of a
character, but that might be something to do with the fact that he sounds
like an extra from Alvin and the Chipmunks. As for this crass American
dialogue he uses ('Why don't you get off your butt' etc), I think we can do
without it. The same goes for many WD characters. Sega games as a whole
are more charming, Landstalker would never have worked as a WD translation,
nor would Soliel, Phantasy Star maybe, but not Shining Force. There's
nothing wrong with these games, people! At least be thankful that Sega
release them at all, if it was all down to Working Designs we'd only have
two games a year to play on the Saturn.
- Rachel Ryan
nathan stehle
u5...@cc.keele.ac.uk (SR Dominguez) writes:
>Okay, there's something I don't understand about this newsgroup. This
>fanatical preference for Working Designs RPGs over Sega in-house RPGs, to
>the point where people would prefer a WD game to a Sega game even if the
>Sega game was much better. I swear, if Phantasy Star V came out, half the
>people on the group would swear blind that they'd rather be playing Albert
>Odyssey, because Working Designs did it. Whenever a new game comes out in
>Japan, it's "Oh Vic! Please translate this RPG! Sega will kill it if they
>do!".
Sort of. I wouldn't say that this is _always_ the case for posters. The
fact of the matter is that people like what WD does for the most part. Sega
is very spotty in their translations. PS IV was well done, so was Legend of
Oasis. Mystaria was not. And I don't really think that people would swear
they would rather be playing AOG over PS V. I'd love to see a PS V, or
anything by the folks who did the PS games. I guess you missed the flurry of
posts regarding PS IV for the Genesis when it came out. If I were a betting
person, I'd rather trust a WD translation any day. But if the people who
did the Shining games and Landstalker do any Sega games, they'll be great.
I think much of the activity comes from the fact that WD is the only compnay
to actively interact with their customers on the internet (actual and
potential).
>The reason I'm so puzzled is that I've played every WD game in existance,
>plus every Sega game and I can't see a problem. Sega let the odd bit of
>Japlish slip in, but WD miss words from sentences on occasion (look at
>Dragon Force where Mikhal tells captives that he wants to join his own army)
>and nobody takes issue. In my mind, Sega did a wonderful translation of
>Dark Savior, the excellent storyline to which saved the game from some pretty
>frustrating gameplay.
Agreed. But the writing in Mystaria was awful. I just want Sega to do a
good job and not slop it. WD is a small company and a big company like Sega
should be able to get it right all the time. But I think Sega is doing the
right thing and that Mystaria was an aberration. I really want Sega to
pump out some good RPG's.
>If we're talking about being able to relate to characters in these games,
>well I have one thing to say. Chaz from PSIV is perhaps my least favourite
>RPG character of all time, but I can bet that he'd be about ten times worse
>with Working Designs dialogue. I'd liken how he'd turn out to NEC's
>American interpretation of Prince Logan from Dragon Slayer. There'd
>certainly be better dubbing, yes, but the character would probably be the
>same (only worse, what with Chaz's moralistic overtones).
Why would Chaz be worse? I guess I cannot speak to this too much since I
know zero Japanese, but I have always liked what WD has done with their
characters in the overall context of the story in a given RPG.
>Oh, and Nall's my second least favourite American interpretation of a
>character, but that might be something to do with the fact that he sounds
>like an extra from Alvin and the Chipmunks. As for this crass American
>dialogue he uses ('Why don't you get off your butt' etc), I think we can do
>without it. The same goes for many WD characters. Sega games as a whole
>are more charming, Landstalker would never have worked as a WD translation,
>nor would Soliel, Phantasy Star maybe, but not Shining Force. There's
>nothing wrong with these games, people! At least be thankful that Sega
>release them at all, if it was all down to Working Designs we'd only have
>two games a year to play on the Saturn.
I am very glad that Sega brings the games over. I hope they continue to
do so. Um, what's Soliel? Never heard of it (maybe I missed something).
I guess we never will know what Sega would do with the Lunar games,
since WD is doing them. But then Sega has not done an RPG here in the
US with voice acting, or a least a big chunk of it.
I guess it all comes down to personal taste, but I do like what WD has done and are doing. No, they are not perfect, in case anyone hasn't realized. But
they do listen to the customers, and thoughtful posts like yours go a long
way in furthering the dialogue on the group esp. in regards to RPG's.
I guess many of the posts stem from the fact that companies like Konami and
Atlus have given Saturn owners the shaft and WD tries to follow the requests
of customers as best they can.
But please, do not generalize and assume all posters in the group a blind
WD worshippers. Most posters in the group know what they like, and say it.
That does not invalidate their opinion merely because they like WD's games.
Nor is yours wrong, after all they are opinions!
--
Nathan Stehle
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Early to bed and early to rise, makes a man stupid and blind in the eyes."
Mazer Rackham in Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game"
Pablo Sanchez
Well, I'm not exactly qualified, as I've only played 1 Working Designs
game (Dragon Force). I enjoyed the game, but didn't like the jokes in the
dialogue that ruined the mood by referring to things in the real world, as
opposed to the game's universe. But then, I never found it funny in movies
like Blazing Saddles or Spaceballs, either.
But, the only Sega of America (for the saturn anyway, I've played most
Genesis RPGs) RPG I've played was Blazing Heroes/Mystaria, which was
complete garbage. The dialogue and plot was so cliche ridden and hokey.
The thing is, a lot of Japanese games seem to be translated into English
by native Japanese speakers. Which isn't a bad thing, but usually they have
a much different view of the language than a native English speaker. Mostly
it's just a cultural thing, and it's pretty noticible. (For instance, that
one Japanese's companies web TV product, Woody, the Internet Pecker. Most
native English speakers think it's hillarious, but the Japanese thought it
was a good name). The same thing applies the other way around.
Anyway, in my mind, the best translation I've seen in a recent game was
Revelations Persona by Atlus. The dialogue is great, I found myself
laughing out loud quite often: not because of out of universe references,
not because of poor translation, but because of clever and funny writing...
Any finally, WD is pretty cool because they at least bring over some
decent RPGs. I mean, Sega's brought over what? A few action ones and
Mystaria? Ick.
SR Dominguez <u5...@cc.keele.ac.uk> wrote in article
<5d00ok$9...@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk>...
Greg Sewart
SR Dominguez wrote:
>
> Okay, there's something I don't understand about this newsgroup. This
> fanatical preference for Working Designs RPGs over Sega in-house RPGs, to
> the point where people would prefer a WD game to a Sega game even if the
> Sega game was much better. I swear, if Phantasy Star V came out, half the
> people on the group would swear blind that they'd rather be playing Albert
> Odyssey, because Working Designs did it. Whenever a new game comes out in
> Japan, it's "Oh Vic! Please translate this RPG! Sega will kill it if they
> do!".
Well, I see your point, there are a lot of WD fanatics in here, but it
can be just a preference. Personally, if PS 5 ever did come out, I'd
drop anything (including Albert Oddyssey) to play it. The reason I hope
for WD to bring out certain games is because many of these games are
ones that A) Sega doesn't own or B) Sega passes on. Magical Knight
Rayearth being a perfect example. However, I am happy to play any RPG,
as long as it's of decent quality.
>
> The reason I'm so puzzled is that I've played every WD game in existance,
> plus every Sega game and I can't see a problem. Sega let the odd bit of
> Japlish slip in, but WD miss words from sentences on occasion (look at
> Dragon Force where Mikhal tells captives that he wants to join his own army)
> and nobody takes issue.
That's true, but I really can't think of any other glaring examples with
other WD games, and you have to take into account the sheer amount of
characters and text in a game like Dragon Force.
In my mind, Sega did a wonderful translation of
> Dark Savior, the excellent storyline to which saved the game from some pretty
> frustrating gameplay.
I agree, although that game was way too short, and I don't think it was
a worthy sequel to Landstalker, the story definitely made it worth going
back to. But this game is also the perfect example of a bad
translation, the type I have never seen from WD. I mean, the characters
and dialogue in Dark Savior sounded like some sort of 5th grade reader,
like some sort of robot talking, Mystaria was the same way, only _much_
worse. Don't get me wrong, I don't consider this an average Sega
translation, PS4, Shining in the Darkness, Shining Force series and
Landstalker are all examples of quality RPG translations. I just wish
Sega would get back to this type of thing, as their latest translations
leave something to be desired.
While WD may sometimes go overboard on humour an present day references,
one thing they never seem to miss is emotional dialogue, and characters
just bursting with personality. While this wouldn't suit a character
like Chaz, I can't really say that it has ever ruined any characters in
thier games, in my eyes. As for Niall, I don't know about the humour,
but he sounds the same as teh Japanese version to me.
>
> If we're talking about being able to relate to characters in these games,
> well I have one thing to say. Chaz from PSIV is perhaps my least favourite
> RPG character of all time, but I can bet that he'd be about ten times worse
> with Working Designs dialogue. I'd liken how he'd turn out to NEC's
> American interpretation of Prince Logan from Dragon Slayer. There'd
> certainly be better dubbing, yes, but the character would probably be the
> same (only worse, what with Chaz's moralistic overtones).
>
> Oh, and Nall's my second least favourite American interpretation of a
> character, but that might be something to do with the fact that he sounds
> like an extra from Alvin and the Chipmunks. As for this crass American
> dialogue he uses ('Why don't you get off your butt' etc), I think we can do
> without it. The same goes for many WD characters. Sega games as a whole
> are more charming, Landstalker would never have worked as a WD translation,
> nor would Soliel, Phantasy Star maybe, but not Shining Force. There's
> nothing wrong with these games, people! At least be thankful that Sega
> release them at all, if it was all down to Working Designs we'd only have
> two games a year to play on the Saturn.
>
> - Rachel Ryan
I agree completely, although I still feel that Sega really needs to work
on quality control with thier future RPG translations. While I don't
worship everything that is WD, I will say that I have never been
displeased while playing one of thier games due to robotic sounding
characters or bad dialogue. However, Mystaria was horrible, to me, for
that very reason. Sega needs the same people that translated some of
their older Genesis titles.
However, I am glad that Sega has decided to pay more attention to the
RPG market, as has Sony, because I feel that, in the end, we'll all win.
Another nice thing about having both Sega and WD translations is the
fact that, since the styles are so radically different, it doesn't feel
like we're playing churned out, factory RPG's.
--
Greg
Editor
Saturn Gaming Central
http://www.gaming-enthusiast.com/geo/sgcentral/
"Over-specialize and you breed in weakness."
-Ghost in the Shell
Saturn/Playstation/Nintendo64/GenesisCDX
Vance Palodichuk
SR Dominguez wrote:
>
> Okay, there's something I don't understand about this newsgroup. This
> fanatical preference for Working Designs RPGs over Sega in-house RPGs, to
> the point where people would prefer a WD game to a Sega game even if the
> Sega game was much better. I swear, if Phantasy Star V came out, half the
> people on the group would swear blind that they'd rather be playing Albert
> Odyssey, because Working Designs did it. Whenever a new game comes out in
> Japan, it's "Oh Vic! Please translate this RPG! Sega will kill it if they
> do!".
People ask WD, because Sega wont do it. Keep in mind that Shining
Wisdom, Dragon Force, and Magic Knight Rayearth are games developed by
Sega and published (or will be) by WD. Sega has hard time publishing
their own games, why would they publish a 3rd party's?
Vance
--
Vance Palodichuk - vpal...@usinternet.com
http://www.usinternet.com/users/vpalodich
Alan Brooks
Pablo Sanchez <Pa...@me.com> wrote in article
<01bc1084$9540a320$3463...@jer.inlink.com>...
<specific translation complaints snipped>
>
> The thing is, a lot of Japanese games seem to be translated into English
> by native Japanese speakers. Which isn't a bad thing, but usually they
have
> a much different view of the language than a native English speaker.
Mostly
> it's just a cultural thing, and it's pretty noticible. (For instance,
that
> one Japanese's companies web TV product, Woody, the Internet Pecker. Most
> native English speakers think it's hillarious, but the Japanese thought
it
> was a good name). The same thing applies the other way around.
>
> Anyway, in my mind, the best translation I've seen in a recent game was
> Revelations Persona by Atlus. The dialogue is great, I found myself
> laughing out loud quite often: not because of out of universe references,
> not because of poor translation, but because of clever and funny
writing...
>
I don't know.... I'd have to disagree about the Persona translation. From
what I understand, a lot of the dialogue wasn't translated so much as
simply rewritten; for example, Mark was made an African American for the US
release, and his dialogue *must* have been changed from the original. In
fact, much of his dialogue was such corny and stereotypical slang, I found
myself groaning half the time he was speaking. I mean, "wassup?" Come on,
now :p
As for what seemed to me as the only relevant issue as it pertains to
translation in this game (that is, the manual), I thought it was horrible.
As you mentioned earlier, it definitely seemed to have been translated by a
native speaker of Japanese with a good but flawed knowledge of English. It
seems to me that it's just a matter of game companies finding skilled
translators, regardless of what their native language is. The same holds
true for translated books; many of the books I read are by non-English
speaking authors, and the choices a translator makes can make or break a
good book. Occasionally a translator appears who can make you forget
you're reading a translation.
I think the problem rests in that many game companies view the translation
as somehow less important than other factors, and thus many of a
well-scripted game's nuances are lost when making the transition. In my
experience, Square games have always seemed reasonably well-translated; I
can't speak for makers of Sega games, because I've owned my Saturn for such
a short time that I haven't played any rpgs for it yet. Dragon Force is
waiting patiently for me to finish Persona, and I can't wait to check it
out.
John Ricciardi
Alan Brooks <*removethis*abr...@sprynet.com> wrote in article
<01bc113f$1a501900$98f2...@SPRY.SPRYNET.com>...
> As for what seemed to me as the only relevant issue as it pertains to
> translation in this game (that is, the manual), I thought it was
horrible.
> As you mentioned earlier, it definitely seemed to have been translated by
a
> native speaker of Japanese with a good but flawed knowledge of English.
It
> seems to me that it's just a matter of game companies finding skilled
> translators, regardless of what their native language is. The same holds
> true for translated books; many of the books I read are by non-English
> speaking authors, and the choices a translator makes can make or break a
> good book. Occasionally a translator appears who can make you forget
> you're reading a translation.
I own Persona, but I haven't played it yet myself (waiting in line behind
Suikoden, DF, and now, FF7), but I find it hard to believe that Atlus
could've pulled a complete 360 and did a good solid translation. Their last
RPG that I played was Crusader of Centy for the Genny, and while it was a
great game (IMO), the translation -sucked-. I realize it's been two years
since then, but in my experience, very rarely does a company make that
kinda turnaround in such a short time.
-John
Kazenoyume
In a way, you've answered your own question. Yes, there are some core, key
differences in the approaches that SOA and Working Designs take in writing
and translation styles. The thing about SOA's (and Square's, SCEA's, etc,
for that matter) translations is that they tend to be more literal. And
while this may be seen as more "pure" in a way, the problem is that
translating in a direct style necessarily results in a loss of meaning in
the transition from the original language. In Japanese, because of the
multiple variations and derivations of words, and the different speech
patterns they're used in, it's almost impossible to say anything to
anybody without implying what you think of the person you are addressing.
You must constantly be aware of how the type of language you choose to use
reflects on the degree of respect you hold for those around you. The most
innocuous of phrases has more underneath than is immediately apparent.
This is an aspect of the language that is simply not present in English.
Thus, in any "direct" translation, it is unavoidable that some meaning
will be lost; meaning that, in the context of a story (in this case an
RPG) could illuminate a good deal of light on the nature of the
relationship between any two characters. This often results in dialogue
that reads unspectacularly, awkwardly, and overly-simplistic to native
english speakers. This obstacle can, however, be worked around by cleverly
rewriting the text into uniquely english phrases, that, while not exactly
"direct", do more to convey the meaning of the original than a direct
conversion would. This is what WD does. The writing in WD games seems more
"alive", more vibrant, and more natural, and that, I think, is what people
respond to. Victor and the WD writers obviously understand something about
the nature of conversation, its rhythms and nuances, and thus the writing
they produce is simply more polished, more effective, and more *realistic*
than any of their competitors. They give their translations a uniquely
american flavor, within the framework of the original text. What is lost
in direct faithfulness to the source text is recouped with more artful,
colorful dialogue. However, WD seems to sometimes feel compelled to
sabotage their own efforts. The top-class quality of WD's writing is
reflective of enormous amounts of time and effort put into the
translation; obvious evidence of respect for the intelligence of the fans
who play their games. I'm just at a loss to understand why the company
feels compelled to tarnish such commendable efforts by inserting juvenile
jokes and low-grade "humor" that even a 6th grader would groan at. Is WD
trying to appeal to both the mature RPG fans with their sophisticated
writing, and also to little kids by throwing in stupid and distracting
jokes and contemporary references? It seems like WD is trying to have it
both ways, but this is not at all the proper way to do it. By including
this humor, WD merely panders to the mildly vulgar sensibilities of
children too young to truly appreciate the merits of roleplaying games,
and in the process, pisses off the older fans who are the backbone of this
market. I have never thought that Japanese RPGs are the appropriate
vehicle for feeble social satire, and I doubt many would disagree with me.
If WD would just cut the crudity, they would be as close to perfect as any
group of humans should be able to reasonably get.
Now, with that said, I'll certainly agree that "direct" translations, when
done well (that is, lack of grievous spelling and grammatical errors)
beget a certain magical charm in their simplicity. This is best seen in
Landstalker, still, IMO, the best SOA translation to date. Completely
dissimilar to a WD translation, and yet the writing was extremely
entertaining and humorous. I would definitely have to disagree that
Landstalker would just "not have worked" as a WD translation. That's
impossible. Certainly, had WD done it, the tone of the game
woulcSzBWv8Aap17gHww
<encoded_portion_removed>
qDUjag3xC2ELNeh+gp75IMSV0V8FjC0Ne9cV4lQ3xatFch has less to do with
translation philosophies than market sensitivity: that SOA censors and
edits almost every game they bring over. DS is a great example. And that's
a deadly combination when combined with literal translations because it
robs the original writing of thematically interesting elements that could
have kept the English text fresh, despite the rough edges. The worry that
SOA "kills" RPGs, compared to WD, is quite understandable. Do you think
that translations as dreadful as Mystaria and Shining Force 2 would have
ever passed muster with WD? Not to mention that SOA shortchanges the
speaking aspect of their RPGs, as the narrator in DS so beautifully
attests. So, no need to characterize WD fans as "zombies" who would forego
even an event as momentous as PS V for whatever WD has next on the release
schedule. Most WD fans are so, because they appreciate how far WD goes to
ensure quality translations, and commend them for it. But we're certainly
intelligent enough to enjoy good RPGs no matter what company they come
from.
-James McCawley
Staff Writer, Digital Savior fanzine