Silhouette Mirage and Working Designs - A Grand Disappointment?

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Victor Ireland

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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In article <Xdwh4.1480$Xb7....@sapphire.mtt.net>, mik...@hfx.andara.com
says...
> When fighting most bosses, you are completely WITHOUT a method of
> replenishing your spirit gauge. Hitting them with a same attribute shot does
> absolutely nothing. Add to that, that melee attacks do zero damage, and you
> have two choices. Risk death using a low powered, low level shot to preserve
> your spirit meter, or suck that same meter dry with your more powerful
> shots, and pray you do enough damage quickly enough to finish them off,
> before losing your hard earned weapons - more on the frustation of GETTING
> those weapons later.
>

Where did you get this idea? Most of the bosses (maybe one or two you
can't) allow you to replenish your spirit guage in exactly the same way
as elsewhere in the game, hit them with the same color attribute. In
fact, this is the preferred method of offing bosses in the *US* version.
Steal their spirit until it is low or gone, launching a parasite bomb
each time you get to full power (just one at a time, then wait until
you've stolen enough for the next). Once their spirit power is low or
out, they cannot launch ANY special attacks and are lambs to lead to the
slaughter. BUT, if you don't cash-bash your way through a level, you
can't BUY the weapons you need to make the above happen.

I've noticed that the people that have the hardest time with the US
version are the ones that got used to the Japanese version. I bet you
bought Grattoni and used it heavily in the Japanese game. Unfortunately,
using a single crutch (which was EASY to do in the Japanese version),
left the player tasting only a fraction of the moves and sights/sounds
that Treasure put in there. The US version requires that you be much
more resourceful, and rewards you heavily for doing so.

If you need tips, there's quite a nice series of subjects discussing SM
strategies for the *US* version in detail at
http://www.workingdesigns.com in the FORUMS section.


--
Don't Believe the Hype -
Vic

Victor Ireland

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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In article <Xdwh4.1480$Xb7....@sapphire.mtt.net>, mik...@hfx.andara.com
says...
> It's disheartening that WD thought it could improve on Treasure's effort.
> Tweak RPGs for harder battles and altered spending, and even failure is not
> fatal. In a shooter of this intricacy, though... tweak too much, and things
> start caving in. SM's full potency is dimmed in this outing, and that is a
> shame.
>

Sorry I didn't catch this in the last reply. Actually, Maegawa-san felt
that we improved on the original game, which is a great compliment.

Mike White

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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Initially, when Spaz, Working Designs' action / shooter label, announced it
was bringing to these shores the Playstation version of one of my favourite
platform shooters, Silhouette Mirage, I was greatly impressed that they
would tackle such an original and bizarre title... however, after playing
the end product, I am filled with a sense of disenchantment, and a
smattering of disgust.

Essentially all of this emotion is created by WD's methods to increase the
difficulty of SM - a worthy goal, admittedly. However, to accomplish it,
they have made ever attack by Shyna drain from her spirit gauge. To
compensate, 'same attribute' attacks are supposed to replenish that same
gauge when used on foes.

This does little to make the levels themselves more difficult, especially if
you use nothing but your primary shot throughout the game. It does damage
enough, and drains little from the gauge. However, this totally negates the
usefulness of every other weapon... till you fight a boss.

Ye gods, the bosses.

When fighting most bosses, you are completely WITHOUT a method of
replenishing your spirit gauge. Hitting them with a same attribute shot does
absolutely nothing. Add to that, that melee attacks do zero damage, and you
have two choices. Risk death using a low powered, low level shot to preserve
your spirit meter, or suck that same meter dry with your more powerful
shots, and pray you do enough damage quickly enough to finish them off,
before losing your hard earned weapons - more on the frustation of GETTING
those weapons later.

All of this wouldn't be too bad, really, if it did not trap you into taking
all attacks with the opposite attribute, for fear of having your spirit
meter siphoned away at an insane rate by a same attribute hit by a boss,
either unreflected, or connecting behind your reflect shield. If you get hit
but once.... well, you'd best decide which shot you want to sacrifice.

Getting weapons is a trial, forcing you to hunt for money by 'cash bashing'
throughout the levels, hoarding your spirit and life in the most miserly
manner.... for if you try and just KILL enemies... half the time you'll get
a 10 spirit replenishment ball... since you will never be at full spirit for
more than a few shots. Half the chance to get money... and WD saw fit to
double the cost of the weapons over the Saturn version. It doesn't matter
much, so long as you have one potent weapon, since the other two will
probably have to be sacrificed in an idiotic boss battle. Still, it would
have been nice to have three useful weapons, as Treasure intended.

SM initially was a flawed game. It was easy, yes, but WD's changes have done
nothing but make it a smidgen harder - still easy - and a LOT more
frustrating. As opposed to a tour de force of imagination and unharnessed
devastation, it becomes a restrained exercise in spirit hoarding and cash
gathering. You spend so much time worrying about your spirit gauge, you miss
most of the fantastic design and unique boss encounters.

It's disheartening that WD thought it could improve on Treasure's effort.
Tweak RPGs for harder battles and altered spending, and even failure is not
fatal. In a shooter of this intricacy, though... tweak too much, and things
start caving in. SM's full potency is dimmed in this outing, and that is a
shame.

Simply a fan's opinion

Raymond McKeithen II

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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Mike White <mik...@hfx.andara.com> wrote in message
news:Xdwh4.1480$Xb7....@sapphire.mtt.net...
>
<snerplala>


>
> SM initially was a flawed game.

I hope that falls into the category of *opinion*; I find nothing "flawed"
about it aside from maybe it being too long.

> It was easy, yes, but WD's changes have done
> nothing but make it a smidgen harder - still easy - and a LOT more
> frustrating. As opposed to a tour de force of imagination and unharnessed
> devastation, it becomes a restrained exercise in spirit hoarding and cash
> gathering. You spend so much time worrying about your spirit gauge, you
miss
> most of the fantastic design and unique boss encounters.
>

Too easy????? Never heard that complaint levelled at it before, and I
certainly don't think it's too easy (speaking of the Saturn version). I know
some others in this NG have used the secret difficulty level select to put
it on "easy" and it's still damn hard, like most all Treasure games.

> It's disheartening that WD thought it could improve on Treasure's effort.
> Tweak RPGs for harder battles and altered spending, and even failure is
not
> fatal. In a shooter of this intricacy, though... tweak too much, and
things
> start caving in. SM's full potency is dimmed in this outing, and that is a
> shame.

How is any of this a surprise? AFAIK all of the action games have had
difficulty "tweaks" when WD's released them in the US.

HOWEVER.....

Do you *know* that WD did this to PSX Silhouette Mirage? Maybe the Japanese
version of PSX SM has the same changes compared to the Saturn version? I
don't know, that's why I'm asking...

--
Raymond
remove "suchiepai" for email


Enoryt666

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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>SM initially was a flawed game. It was easy, yes, but WD's changes have done

>nothing but make it a smidgen harder - still easy - and a LOT more
>frustrating.

Is there a reason you're posting this to the SEGA newsgroup, you little troll
prick? Learn some netiquitte and get this the fuck where it belongs.

---------------------

"If she says, 'It's not you, it's me,' then it is you and you've failed!"

"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing..."

"All I do know is that [God's] a force stronger than Mom and Dad put together
and you owe Him big."


Ronald Spillman

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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Enoryt666 wrote:

>
>
> Is there a reason you're posting this to the SEGA newsgroup, you little troll
> prick? Learn some netiquitte and get this the fuck where it belongs.
>
>

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Since when have YOU EVER learned netiquette,
boy? And perhaps it was because it was originally a SATURN, as in
SEGA, game? I'd suggest taking your own medicine before dishing
it out to others, kid.


Enoryt666

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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>BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Since when have YOU EVER learned netiquette,
>boy?

This guy is obviously a troll.

>And perhaps it was because it was originally a SATURN, as in
>SEGA, game?

And yet the guy made mention of it being one of his favorite import PLAYSTATION
games. Again, he's a troll.

>I'd suggest taking your own medicine before dishing
>it out to others, kid.

What are you talking about? He was trolling. That has nothing to do with me.

Mike White

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
> <snerplala>

> >
> > SM initially was a flawed game.
>
> I hope that falls into the category of *opinion*; I find nothing "flawed"
> about it aside from maybe it being too long.

Of course it was; everything offered on this newsgroup is an opinion, more
or less.

> > gathering. You spend so much time worrying about your spirit gauge, you
> miss
> > most of the fantastic design and unique boss encounters.
> >
>
> Too easy????? Never heard that complaint levelled at it before, and I
> certainly don't think it's too easy (speaking of the Saturn version). I
know
> some others in this NG have used the secret difficulty level select to put
> it on "easy" and it's still damn hard, like most all Treasure games.

The boomerang shot was overpowered, and allowed you to finish the game with
relative ease.

> > start caving in. SM's full potency is dimmed in this outing, and that is
a
> > shame.
>
> How is any of this a surprise? AFAIK all of the action games have had
> difficulty "tweaks" when WD's released them in the US.
>
> HOWEVER.....
>
> Do you *know* that WD did this to PSX Silhouette Mirage? Maybe the
Japanese
> version of PSX SM has the same changes compared to the Saturn version? I
> don't know, that's why I'm asking...

I do know, because they stated as much in their translator notes on the back
page of the manual.

Mike White

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
> Where did you get this idea? Most of the bosses (maybe one or two you
> can't) allow you to replenish your spirit guage in exactly the same way
> as elsewhere in the game, hit them with the same color attribute. In
> fact, this is the preferred method of offing bosses in the *US* version.
> Steal their spirit until it is low or gone, launching a parasite bomb
> each time you get to full power (just one at a time, then wait until
> you've stolen enough for the next). Once their spirit power is low or
> out, they cannot launch ANY special attacks and are lambs to lead to the
> slaughter.

The alernate form of Zohar, Delia, and Sara I'm 98% certain you cannot
siphon spirit from. A fair amount of the others, such as Malak, and Zohar,
simply move too swiftly for an effective spirit drain - damage combonation
of attacks, even if you can hit them. The case is highlighted during the
core battle with Zohar, where you're lucky to escape with two of your three
weapons.

BUT, if you don't cash-bash your way through a level, you
> can't BUY the weapons you need to make the above happen.

This smacks, to me, of forced level building in RPGs, a crutch designed to
milk more hours, and to developers, "gameplay" out of a game.

Again, I find the original game had a good balance. With a moderate amount
of cash grabbing, you could afford three new weapons. It didn't require you
to beat the money out of every enemy on the level, then go back and pray
they respawned to give you more.

> I've noticed that the people that have the hardest time with the US
> version are the ones that got used to the Japanese version. I bet you
> bought Grattoni and used it heavily in the Japanese game. Unfortunately,
> using a single crutch (which was EASY to do in the Japanese version),
> left the player tasting only a fraction of the moves and sights/sounds
> that Treasure put in there. The US version requires that you be much
> more resourceful, and rewards you heavily for doing so.

Grattoni, in my opinion, was quite underpowered when compared to Priday, who
could, and still can, eviscerate any boss it can reach.

You still have no reason to use any other weapon, save to hoard spirit. I
don't find that particularily rewarding.

I still insist that melee attacks should do a fair amount of damage, even to
bosses, to save you when you're incredibly low on spirit.... perhaps having
the bounce off the floor technique siphon a tiny fraction of spirit, enough
to get you back into the fight... then I wouldn't be so miffed.

Bosses you can grab are still rather easy, save for Zohar and a few others.
Simply use the old Streets of Rage technique.... grab, release, hit hit hit,
grab, release, hit hit hit... they are totally paralyzed, and usually beaten
with little to no counterattack. It is watching the alternate form of Zohar
hit me behind my reflector with an explosion draining half my spirit bar on
my last good weapon that I spent the last half hour earning beating the cash
out of hapless enemies that just frustrates me on the experience.

Yeah, I played the Satrun version and loved it... but I still think that
entitles me to have, and voice an opinion on the game. If others play and
love it, great. I don't, and I'm just saying why.

Mike White

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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> Is there a reason you're posting this to the SEGA newsgroup, you little
troll
> prick? Learn some netiquitte and get this the fuck where it belongs.

Um... because... the version I own... is for the Saturn. It was Sega's 32
bit machine, you know, after the Genesis? Before the Dreamcast? I know it
didn't sell too well in comparison to the Playstation, but you don't need to
pretend it never existed. I mean come on. I'm sure the team that designed
the system is hurt.

Mike White

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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> Sorry I didn't catch this in the last reply. Actually, Maegawa-san felt
> that we improved on the original game, which is a great compliment.

Most people seem to like the Final Fantasy series; I don't. Not all people
enjoy everything, and I don't enjoy the US version of SM as fully as the
Japanese. Surely I'm entitled to elaborate as to why not.

Raymond McKeithen II

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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Mike White <mik...@hfx.andara.com> wrote in message

news:sGEh4.1531$Xb7....@sapphire.mtt.net...
> > <snerplala>

>
> > > gathering. You spend so much time worrying about your spirit gauge,
you
> > miss
> > > most of the fantastic design and unique boss encounters.
> > >
> >
> > Too easy????? Never heard that complaint levelled at it before, and I
> > certainly don't think it's too easy (speaking of the Saturn version). I
> know
> > some others in this NG have used the secret difficulty level select to
put
> > it on "easy" and it's still damn hard, like most all Treasure games.
>
> The boomerang shot was overpowered, and allowed you to finish the game
with
> relative ease.
>

Hm, I didn't find that to be true, considering I still can't get anywhere
near finishing it. However, I don't think "overabuse" of one weapon is
reason to call the game "flawed." That's the same as the griping that Soul
Calibur can be won by "button smashing" when that's not how the game is
intended to be played. There's such a thing as self-control. :)

> > > start caving in. SM's full potency is dimmed in this outing, and that
is
> a
> > > shame.
> >
> > How is any of this a surprise? AFAIK all of the action games have had
> > difficulty "tweaks" when WD's released them in the US.
> >
> > HOWEVER.....
> >
> > Do you *know* that WD did this to PSX Silhouette Mirage? Maybe the
> Japanese
> > version of PSX SM has the same changes compared to the Saturn version? I
> > don't know, that's why I'm asking...
>
> I do know, because they stated as much in their translator notes on the
back
> page of the manual.
>

Ah. Well, it falls back to my first question, how is this a surprise then?
AFAIK *every* Spaz game has its difficulty changed in ways that in my (and
probably your) opinion do nothing other than artificially extend the game
difficulty/length. It was true in Raystorm and Thunder Force V, and it's
apparently true here. TFV certainly didn't need to be made any harder...

Victor Ireland

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <y4Fh4.1535$Xb7....@sapphire.mtt.net>, mik...@hfx.andara.com
says...

Sure you are, as long as you get your facts straight. You said you
couldn't replenish your spirit guage in boss battles. For all but three
of the more than 20 bosses, you were wrong. Maybe you didn't know? Maybe
you didn't have the skill. All I did was inform that, yes, you CAN
replenish your spirit guage in almost all of the battles if you're good
enough.

Victor Ireland

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <%yFh4.1923$l81....@monger.newsread.com>,
rfmc...@suchiepaijas.net says...

> Ah. Well, it falls back to my first question, how is this a surprise then?
> AFAIK *every* Spaz game has its difficulty changed in ways that in my (and
> probably your) opinion do nothing other than artificially extend the game
> difficulty/length. It was true in Raystorm and Thunder Force V, and it's
> apparently true here. TFV certainly didn't need to be made any harder...
>

TF5 difficulty wasn't tweaked. All that was taken out was the Kids mode,
so you can't blow through the game and complain it was too easy.

neo_zo...@hotmail.com

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <Xdwh4.1480$Xb7....@sapphire.mtt.net>,

"Mike White" <mik...@hfx.andara.com> wrote:
>
> It's disheartening that WD thought it could improve on Treasure's
> effort.

WD's assumption that their changes to the works of the original
developers are unquestionable improvements is perhaps their most
irritating trait.

-ZFP


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Ben Turner

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <867m2p$ggc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

neo_zo...@hotmail.com wrote:
> WD's assumption that their changes to the works of the original
> developers are unquestionable improvements is perhaps their most
> irritating trait.

Roger that.

2nd would be their atrocious voice dubs.. Lunar:SSSC is my gf's first
video game, and even she is near gagging when any one of the characters
starts speaking. Thanks to the crap voices, the anime scenes are
nearly ruined. :/

"Check THIS out!"

Ugh.

"Althena, lend me your power!"

*breaks into conniptions*

BenT <-- *sigh*
-----------------------------------------
The Definitive Guide to River City Ransom
http://www.worldlynx.net/bent/rcr/

atholbrose

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:11:55 -0800, Victor Ireland <vire...@nospam.com> wrote:
>TF5 difficulty wasn't tweaked. All that was taken out was the Kids mode,
>so you can't blow through the game and complain it was too easy.

I wanted to blow through the game. I like shooters -- and I enjoyed TF5 a
good deal, by the way, but I never have gotten very far -- but there's
nothing inherently wrong with having an easy time of it. You see, I like
'em, but I'm terrible at 'em. I played a heck of a lot of the Gradius game
on the PSX, and kept it on the beginner mode the entire time. Still got my
money's worth.

BTW, I'm enjoying Silhouette Mirage, except I never can seem to get enough
money. Gonna try it with a few tips you posted and see what happens
(wasn't too far, anyway).

neo_zo...@hotmail.com

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <slrn88enat....@shell.one.net>,

cinn...@shell.one.net (atholbrose) wrote:
>
> I wanted to blow through the game. I like shooters -- and I enjoyed
> TF5 a good deal, by the way, but I never have gotten very far -- but
> there's nothing inherently wrong with having an easy time of it. You
> see, I like 'em, but I'm terrible at 'em.

Same here. I hate it when I have to shelve a promising game because
some developer decided that people at my skill level were somehow not
worthy of seeing the whole game.

-ZFP

Darien Allen

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
Now at the time of Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:01:58 GMT,
neo_zo...@hotmail.com we were graced with this statement:

>In article <Xdwh4.1480$Xb7....@sapphire.mtt.net>,
> "Mike White" <mik...@hfx.andara.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's disheartening that WD thought it could improve on Treasure's
>> effort.
>

>WD's assumption that their changes to the works of the original
>developers are unquestionable improvements is perhaps their most
>irritating trait.

And when the creators of the original work happen to LIKE the changes
WD has made in their ports, what do you say then?


------------------------

Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081

Victor Ireland

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <h68f8s0nk47qskg0r...@4ax.com>,
darienNO...@mindspring.com says...

Nothing. That would spoil their ill-conceived notion that we're some
mercenary company randomly butchering hapless Japanese software. The
truth isn't nearly as fun or safe as fanboyland.

Victor Ireland

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <slrn88enat....@shell.one.net>,
cinn...@shell.one.net says...

> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:11:55 -0800, Victor Ireland <vire...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >TF5 difficulty wasn't tweaked. All that was taken out was the Kids mode,
> >so you can't blow through the game and complain it was too easy.
>
> I wanted to blow through the game. I like shooters -- and I enjoyed TF5 a
> good deal, by the way, but I never have gotten very far -- but there's
> nothing inherently wrong with having an easy time of it. You see, I like
> 'em, but I'm terrible at 'em. I played a heck of a lot of the Gradius game
> on the PSX, and kept it on the beginner mode the entire time. Still got my
> money's worth.
>

Yes, but here is where the cultural difference between Japan and the US
gamers causes a problem. We CAN'T leave the super-easy modes in and let
you do the whole game in an hour or two because, like it or not, there is
a significant portion of the gaming community that will put it on that
mode, blast through the game, complain it's too easy, and return it to
the store for a full refund. In Japan, when you buy a game, you OWN it.
No returns.

This problem is one of the reason home shooters are a dead/dying market
in the US. Retailers don't want the hassle, and publishers can't make
any money. We're taking active steps to FIX the problem so the genre can
thrive again like in the 16-bit days (remember the Genesis shooters?!!).
If someone else has a better solution to the problem, I'm all ears.

Raymond McKeithen II

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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Victor Ireland <vire...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.12f0e1b69...@news.mindspring.com...

> In article <%yFh4.1923$l81....@monger.newsread.com>,
> rfmc...@suchiepaijas.net says...
> > Ah. Well, it falls back to my first question, how is this a surprise
then?
> > AFAIK *every* Spaz game has its difficulty changed in ways that in my
(and
> > probably your) opinion do nothing other than artificially extend the
game
> > difficulty/length. It was true in Raystorm and Thunder Force V, and it's
> > apparently true here. TFV certainly didn't need to be made any harder...
> >
>
> TF5 difficulty wasn't tweaked. All that was taken out was the Kids mode,
> so you can't blow through the game and complain it was too easy.
>

Oops, I'm slightly confused. Is Kids mode something unique to the Japanese
PSX version? Unless I'm totally nuts (possible) I don't remember any Kids
mode in the Saturn import (can't check right now).

Enoryt666

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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>Roger that.
>
>2nd would be their atrocious voice dubs.

You're an idiot. WD has some of the best voice actors working today.

Kevin Roverud

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
In article <MPG.12f11bb1f...@news.mindspring.com>,
Victor Ireland <vire...@nospam.com> wrote:

*snip.. erased the first line of vic's paragraph by mistake...*

>gamers causes a problem. We CAN'T leave the super-easy modes in and let

That's a shame that you CAN'T leave the mode in, but what about having a
code to unlock it? I mean, there is a difference between using an option
on a menu than using a cheat code. Why not, as a joke, make the
super-easy/kids modes playable AFTER you beat teh game on normal
difficulty. Heh heh heh. Now that is humor.

>you do the whole game in an hour or two because, like it or not, there is
>a significant portion of the gaming community that will put it on that
>mode, blast through the game, complain it's too easy, and return it to
>the store for a full refund. In Japan, when you buy a game, you OWN it.
>No returns.

I never return games either. And I like a lot of Japanese games. (LOVE
Treasure, and love the whole pop culture style in Japan.) I think I'm
turning Japanese...

>This problem is one of the reason home shooters are a dead/dying market
>in the US. Retailers don't want the hassle, and publishers can't make
>any money. We're taking active steps to FIX the problem so the genre can
>thrive again like in the 16-bit days (remember the Genesis shooters?!!).
>If someone else has a better solution to the problem, I'm all ears.

What are these "active steps" of which you speak?


--
Kevin Roverud - rov...@primenet.com - http://www.primenet.com/~roverud
"Kevin is one kewl mofo." ___ -BOB (diaper...@hotmail.com)
CXLI-CCLMDCCCLXXIII-CDLXXXI

Zach Keene

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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Raymond McKeithen II wrote:

> Oops, I'm slightly confused. Is Kids mode something unique to the Japanese
> PSX version?

Nope.

> Unless I'm totally nuts (possible) I don't remember any Kids
> mode in the Saturn import (can't check right now).

It's there.

Zach Keene
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Author of many FAQs: MK2, FF1, Einhander, CSOTN, AGVS, G3, and G.Darius
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alt.games.video.shooters - Visit it again for the first time!
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Nick Zitzmann

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
Ben Turner at <ben...@my-deja.com> was hit with a Spoon for saying this in
article <867mqi$h1f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:

> 2nd would be their atrocious voice dubs.. Lunar:SSSC is my gf's first
> video game, and even she is near gagging when any one of the characters
> starts speaking. Thanks to the crap voices, the anime scenes are
> nearly ruined. :/

I didn't think Lunar's voice acting was that bad - there are far worse games
in that respect (Star Ocean, Castlevania: SotN, etc.). While I thought
Lunar's voices weren't quite on the same level as, say, Metal Gear Solid,
the only bad thing about them was their repetition. (Grandia addressed this
problem somewhat, and I'm hoping Eternal Blue does as well.)

Nick Zitzmann ICQ: 22305512

To see my real signature, finger my E-Mail address.


Darien Allen

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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Now at the time of Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:41:42 GMT,

neo_zo...@hotmail.com we were graced with this statement:

>In article <slrn88enat....@shell.one.net>,


> cinn...@shell.one.net (atholbrose) wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to blow through the game. I like shooters -- and I enjoyed
>> TF5 a good deal, by the way, but I never have gotten very far -- but
>> there's nothing inherently wrong with having an easy time of it. You
>> see, I like 'em, but I'm terrible at 'em.
>

>Same here. I hate it when I have to shelve a promising game because
>some developer decided that people at my skill level were somehow not
>worthy of seeing the whole game.

<violins play in the background>


------------------------

Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081

Victor Ireland

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <RpRh4.1631$Xb7....@sapphire.mtt.net>, mik...@hfx.andara.com
says...

> > Sure you are, as long as you get your facts straight. You said you
> > couldn't replenish your spirit guage in boss battles. For all but three
> > of the more than 20 bosses, you were wrong. Maybe you didn't know? Maybe
> > you didn't have the skill. All I did was inform that, yes, you CAN
> > replenish your spirit guage in almost all of the battles if you're good
> > enough.
>
> I will admit to not encountering every boss, (having given up after running
> into the Cyhper Za-Zohran or whatever his final version is), but all of
> those whom I did run into proved to be either a) impossible to steal spirit
> from, b) extremely hard to hit with any sort of competent weapon I could
> afford, meaning I should like to focus primarily on attacks if I didn't want
> to spend a half hour on them, or c), so ludicrously easy as to not merit
> mention.
>

But this view goes back to the original problem that you have developed a
playing style that was based on the Japanese Saturn version.

Surprise! That was a LOT different experience. Stealing spirit from MOST
bosses is not hard at all, with practice. Priday and Angara, which were
pretty useless in the Japanese version, are EXCELLENT for stealing
spirit. And that's just it. You have to RELEARN the balance of the
game, a problem that new users of the *US* version don't have to do
because it's all new to them. There are weapons you use for stealing
spirit, and there are weapons you use for straight attacks, and those you
use to clear the room. The balance is there, but as I said before, if
you played the import, you are at a distinct disadvantage because you
learned patterns and habits that are simply not very fun or effective in
the *US* version.

I'm not reaming you, and I hope it doesn't come off as such. I just want
to make it clear that playing the import has put you at a disadvantage.

Ronald Spillman

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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Enoryt666 wrote:

> >Roger that.
> >
> >2nd would be their atrocious voice dubs.
>
> You're an idiot. WD has some of the best voice actors working today.
>
>

I never thought I would say this, but I would have to agree, for the
most part; Unlike the Capcom VAs for the Resident Evil games,
for the most part, WD's VAs I have enjoyed since the Sega CD
days; really seem to get into the mood fast....unlike HotD2, which,
while a blast to play, I almost felt like wearing earmuffs....
"Don't KILL me!!!"; oyyyyyy....^_^


Victor Ireland

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
In article <ZYKh4.2046$l81.1...@monger.newsread.com>,
rfmc...@suchiepaijas.net says...

>
> Victor Ireland <vire...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.12f0e1b69...@news.mindspring.com...
> > In article <%yFh4.1923$l81....@monger.newsread.com>,
> > rfmc...@suchiepaijas.net says...
> > > Ah. Well, it falls back to my first question, how is this a surprise
> then?
> > > AFAIK *every* Spaz game has its difficulty changed in ways that in my
> (and
> > > probably your) opinion do nothing other than artificially extend the
> game
> > > difficulty/length. It was true in Raystorm and Thunder Force V, and it's
> > > apparently true here. TFV certainly didn't need to be made any harder...
> > >
> >
> > TF5 difficulty wasn't tweaked. All that was taken out was the Kids mode,
> > so you can't blow through the game and complain it was too easy.
> >
>
> Oops, I'm slightly confused. Is Kids mode something unique to the Japanese
> PSX version? Unless I'm totally nuts (possible) I don't remember any Kids

> mode in the Saturn import (can't check right now).
>

I don't have it right here, but I'm fairly certain it was in the Japanese
Saturn version. It was definitely in the Japanese PS version.

Victor Ireland

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <868ti8$d70$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, ben...@my-deja.com says...
> In article <20000120163650...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,

> enor...@aol.com (Enoryt666) wrote:
> > >2nd would be their atrocious voice dubs.
> >
> > You're an idiot. WD has some of the best voice actors working today.
>
> *laughs*
>

Which is a mechanism in fanboyland that makes all the scary facts flutter
away, but in the real world 99.999% of humanity inhabit, has no real
effect except to seem like the poster really had no legitimate comeback,
except maybe "oh yeah?! Well seiyuu ROCK!", which he realized would have
made him look even sillier.

Terrence Huey

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
> > I wanted to blow through the game. I like shooters -- and I enjoyed
> > TF5 a good deal, by the way, but I never have gotten very far -- but
> > there's nothing inherently wrong with having an easy time of it. You
> > see, I like 'em, but I'm terrible at 'em.
>
> Same here. I hate it when I have to shelve a promising game because
> some developer decided that people at my skill level were somehow not
> worthy of seeing the whole game.

*Is reminded of Joshua Kaufman auctioning TFV on ebay last week because it
was too friggin' hard*

Just wanted to say, Vic, that a friend of mine bought the import TFV for the
PSX solely because you guys had made the game harder. I played the Saturn
one a few times and although I like it, I thought it was pretty difficult
already. I can not imagine why anyone would want to up the difficulty.

Terrence Huey

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
> Which is a mechanism in fanboyland that makes all the scary facts flutter
> away, but in the real world 99.999% of humanity inhabit, has no real
> effect except to seem like the poster really had no legitimate comeback,
> except maybe "oh yeah?! Well seiyuu ROCK!", which he realized would have
> made him look even sillier.

I dunno Vic, why is it that you never rebuke that idiot troll Tyrone? Ah I
see, he's probably like your one loyal fan and despite that he's nothing but
a troll, you'll take all the support you can get.

I have no animosity towards you or your company, Vic, but gee. Stop taking
that fool seriously. Even Tyrone knows he's an idiot.

-T

Black Lion

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
Joe Ottoson wrote:

> How many other US based publishers actually bother to even cast decent
> actors at all when they can just grab a janitor to two instead?

"Now bear my arctic blast!"

--
Later,
-Black Lion

Black Lion

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
to
Instead of leaving the easy mode in - how about a fix for it like you
did for elemental gearbolt? The practice setting was chooseable, but it
only allowed the first few levels to be played... then told you to go
play it for real. I thought that was a splendid way to introduce the
game without ruining it by making it too easy.

Of course, on normal and hard mode, I find it to be incredibly
difficult, but perhaps it's just me. I keep getting blasted on the huge
ship boss on level 4.

Victor Ireland wrote:
> This problem is one of the reason home shooters are a dead/dying market
> in the US. Retailers don't want the hassle, and publishers can't make
> any money. We're taking active steps to FIX the problem so the genre can
> thrive again like in the 16-bit days (remember the Genesis shooters?!!).
> If someone else has a better solution to the problem, I'm all ears.
>

> --
> Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic


--
Later,
-Black Lion
ICQ#:5326196
AOL IM:Ben Stylus
eBay: BenStylus
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Ben Turner

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
In article <20000120163650...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
enor...@aol.com (Enoryt666) wrote:
> >2nd would be their atrocious voice dubs.
>
> You're an idiot. WD has some of the best voice actors working today.

*laughs*

BenT

Mike White

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
> Sure you are, as long as you get your facts straight. You said you
> couldn't replenish your spirit guage in boss battles. For all but three
> of the more than 20 bosses, you were wrong. Maybe you didn't know? Maybe
> you didn't have the skill. All I did was inform that, yes, you CAN
> replenish your spirit guage in almost all of the battles if you're good
> enough.

I will admit to not encountering every boss, (having given up after running
into the Cyhper Za-Zohran or whatever his final version is), but all of
those whom I did run into proved to be either a) impossible to steal spirit
from, b) extremely hard to hit with any sort of competent weapon I could
afford, meaning I should like to focus primarily on attacks if I didn't want
to spend a half hour on them, or c), so ludicrously easy as to not merit
mention.

Boss battles are merely an underline to the main point - the handling of
spirit in this version is inherently flawed, in my view. What fun is a
shooter if you have to be worried every time you shoot? In the quest for
difficulty, all that was uncovered was frustration.

All are simply my own opinions. Anyone out there who bought the game and
loves it, power to you. I'm glad you got your money's worth. Me, I'm unhappy
with the job Spaz / WD did, but still find the game good. I'll still
reccomend it to customers searching for a shooter, or a unique experience,
but I'll be a bit more reserved than I was going to be initially.

Paul Acevedo

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
Yeah, doesn't Metal Slug 1st Mission offer the Kids and Expert modes only
after completing the game? I like that, at least there's a way to lower the
difficulty (instead of screwing weak players completely).

--
Regards,

Paul Acevedo eas...@segacon.com
- DreamcastLife Editor in Chief -
http://www.dreamcastlife.com ICQ # 10745085

"Kevin Roverud" <rov...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:8686nn$9de$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com...


> In article <MPG.12f11bb1f...@news.mindspring.com>,
> Victor Ireland <vire...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> *snip.. erased the first line of vic's paragraph by mistake...*
>
> >gamers causes a problem. We CAN'T leave the super-easy modes in and let
>
> That's a shame that you CAN'T leave the mode in, but what about having a
> code to unlock it? I mean, there is a difference between using an option
> on a menu than using a cheat code. Why not, as a joke, make the
> super-easy/kids modes playable AFTER you beat teh game on normal
> difficulty. Heh heh heh. Now that is humor.
>
> >you do the whole game in an hour or two because, like it or not, there is
> >a significant portion of the gaming community that will put it on that
> >mode, blast through the game, complain it's too easy, and return it to
> >the store for a full refund. In Japan, when you buy a game, you OWN it.
> >No returns.
>
> I never return games either. And I like a lot of Japanese games. (LOVE
> Treasure, and love the whole pop culture style in Japan.) I think I'm
> turning Japanese...
>

> >This problem is one of the reason home shooters are a dead/dying market
> >in the US. Retailers don't want the hassle, and publishers can't make
> >any money. We're taking active steps to FIX the problem so the genre can
> >thrive again like in the 16-bit days (remember the Genesis shooters?!!).
> >If someone else has a better solution to the problem, I'm all ears.
>

Joe Ottoson

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
In article <868ti8$d70$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ben Turner
<ben...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> In article <20000120163650...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
> enor...@aol.com (Enoryt666) wrote:
> > >2nd would be their atrocious voice dubs.
> >
> > You're an idiot. WD has some of the best voice actors working today.
>
> *laughs*
>
> BenT

Otaku who completely misses the point #1110010101111191039458323934....

Joe Ottoson

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
In article <8691t9$k2f$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, Terrence Huey
<th...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:

> > Which is a mechanism in fanboyland that makes all the scary facts flutter
> > away, but in the real world 99.999% of humanity inhabit, has no real
> > effect except to seem like the poster really had no legitimate comeback,
> > except maybe "oh yeah?! Well seiyuu ROCK!", which he realized would have
> > made him look even sillier.
>
> I dunno Vic, why is it that you never rebuke that idiot troll Tyrone? Ah I
> see, he's probably like your one loyal fan and despite that he's nothing but
> a troll, you'll take all the support you can get.

Somehow I don't see the rationale for ignoring Tyrone when he's damn
close to the mark in this particular case. (It does happen from time to
time... Toss out enough crap and you'll eventually accidntly offer up a
semi coherant point after all.)

How many other US based publishers actually bother to even cast decent

actors at all when they can just grab a janitor to two instead? WD at
least makes the effort to get them close.

> I have no animosity towards you or your company, Vic, but gee. Stop taking
> that fool seriously. Even Tyrone knows he's an idiot.

Even so. When he says something sensible, it doesn't automatically
disqualify it just because he's a troll. What's true is true...

Andrew Ryan Chang

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
Joe Ottoson <aj...@dim.com> wrote:
>How many other US based publishers actually bother to even cast decent
>actors at all when they can just grab a janitor to two instead? WD at
>least makes the effort to get them close.

<ponders Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 3> Hmm... Okay,
granted, they're not console games, but I'd hope GF was doable on the DC.

--
"Ed is the standard text editor."
-Patrick J. Lopresti

Terrence Huey

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to

> Somehow I don't see the rationale for ignoring Tyrone when he's damn
> close to the mark in this particular case. (It does happen from time to
> time... Toss out enough crap and you'll eventually accidntly offer up a
> semi coherant point after all.)

I dunno Joe... at least on Tyrone, I won't agree with your statement. If he
were the boy who cried wolf, I'd be the first one rejoicing when I discover
his body shredded to pieces...

> How many other US based publishers actually bother to even cast decent
> actors at all when they can just grab a janitor to two instead? WD at
> least makes the effort to get them close.

I guess. But that's not to say WD's not without fault. Luna I think, was
played by Vic's wife's friend or something like that.. and some felt it was
quite obvious because her acting wasn't nearly up to par with the rest of
the cast.

-T

Joe Ottoson

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
In article <8699cv$roo$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, Terrence Huey
<th...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:

> > Somehow I don't see the rationale for ignoring Tyrone when he's damn
> > close to the mark in this particular case. (It does happen from time to
> > time... Toss out enough crap and you'll eventually accidntly offer up a
> > semi coherant point after all.)
>
> I dunno Joe... at least on Tyrone, I won't agree with your statement. If he
> were the boy who cried wolf, I'd be the first one rejoicing when I discover
> his body shredded to pieces...

I'm not saying to respect him, or to even give two farts about him, but
there has to be some kind of rational consideration of things that make
a decent amount of sense no matter the source. I'd hate to think that
(pointless Nazi comment coming) for example we'd all have to like
Hitler if Tyrone said he hated der furher. ;)

> > How many other US based publishers actually bother to even cast decent
> > actors at all when they can just grab a janitor to two instead? WD at
> > least makes the effort to get them close.
>
> I guess. But that's not to say WD's not without fault.

Of course not. Doesn't mean they should be lumped in with Capcom
(Megaman anyone?) and that ilk just becasue Tyrone said they were
better. The point is, WD usually goes further to get a decent dub than
most other console companies do. Doesn't mean they get it right all the
time. It just means that on average, they're better than others when it
comes to dubbing.

Somehow I doubt even the most jaded otaku could realistically counter
that. (Aside from demanding dubbing removed in favor of the far more
sensible and emotive subtitles that is ;)

Henry LaPierre

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
In <3887E3F6...@netset.com> Ronald Spillman <r...@netset.com>
writes:

>I never thought I would say this, but I would have to agree, for the
>most part; Unlike the Capcom VAs for the Resident Evil games,
>for the most part, WD's VAs I have enjoyed since the Sega CD
>days; really seem to get into the mood fast....unlike HotD2, which,
>while a blast to play, I almost felt like wearing earmuffs....
>"Don't KILL me!!!"; oyyyyyy....^_^
>

Not to change the topic, but Both the US and Japanese versions of
Alundra 2 have exceptional voice actors (especially Ruby).

Henry LaPierre
fre...@ix.netcom.com

Paul Acevedo

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
No joke... TF 5 Saturn is tough as nails.

--
Regards,

Paul Acevedo eas...@segacon.com
- DreamcastLife Editor in Chief -
http://www.dreamcastlife.com ICQ # 10745085

"Terrence Huey" <th...@ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:8691m3$k0t$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu...

neo_zo...@hotmail.com

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
to
In article <MPG.12f11bb1f...@news.mindspring.com>,

vire...@nospam.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>
> Yes, but here is where the cultural difference between Japan and the
> US gamers causes a problem. We CAN'T leave the super-easy modes in
> and let you do the whole game in an hour or two because, like it or

> not, there is a significant portion of the gaming community that will
> put it on that mode, blast through the game, complain it's too easy,
> and return it to the store for a full refund.

I don't think you really know your audiance, Vic. If someone plays a
game on easy, it's because they WANT to blast right through it. Denying
people that option is just elitist nonsense.

> If someone else has a better solution to the problem, I'm all ears.

Why do you think this a solution at all? Is it working?

-ZFP

neo_zo...@hotmail.com

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00