Crazy Taxi only has 30fps???
MWatcher
game has a slower framerate than the arcade version...or are these movies
just showing pre-alphas? I was kinda disappointed with the 'imperfect' Sega
Rally 2...so I'm not too crazy about an 'imperfect' Crazy Taxi.
MWatcher
Tempora
person who made the movies can set the FPS capture rate on the video camera
to 30 FPS to keep the video file small. Then, it boils down to the quality
of the computer (has a a lot of RAM and a fast CPU?) that is connected to
the camera that encodes the video to disk. Then it boils down to how fast
your computer decodes the video when you play it back.
Just download a Quicktime of a game you have from IGN and you'll see the
game doesn't move quite as nicely in the captured video as it does running
in front of your eyes on your TV.
--
"If everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane."
Anonymous
"MWatcher" <mwat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%kdh4.18536$Dv1.4...@news2.rdc1.on.home.com...
Steve Cutting
wrote:
>Did anyone check out the quicktime movies at dc.ign.com? It seems that the
>game has a slower framerate than the arcade version...or are these movies
>just showing pre-alphas? I was kinda disappointed with the 'imperfect' Sega
>Rally 2...so I'm not too crazy about an 'imperfect' Crazy Taxi.
The quicktime would only be 30fps or lower anyway. The game itself is
60fps apparently, but you just can't tell from a 30fps or lower video
Steve
John Kitchar
This means multiple AI, daytime tracks, great graphics, etc. Sorry, I like
my DC but I don't think it could do it----that's my opinion/prediction.
The "first gen" game excuse is getting a bit old for me---so can that idea
and give me facts if you want to argue with me.
MSR=30 fps if lucky. I wonder why it's delayed...
SegaGT=who knows, but I bet it ain't 60fps.
JMK
MWatcher wrote in message
>Did anyone check out the quicktime movies at dc.ign.com? It seems that the
>game has a slower framerate than the arcade version...or are these movies
>just showing pre-alphas? I was kinda disappointed with the 'imperfect'
Sega
>Rally 2...so I'm not too crazy about an 'imperfect' Crazy Taxi.
>
>MWatcher
>
>
Schmev
Why TXR is first generation and runs at 60fps. You don't think they can add
multiple tracks to that game(daytime tracks) in the DC's lifetime?
Sounds quite pessimistic to me.
Schmev
John Kitchar <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote in message
news:86400...@enews3.newsguy.com...
Darien Allen
spam"flash.net> we were graced with this statement:
>Why TXR is first generation and runs at 60fps. You don't think they can add
>multiple tracks to that game(daytime tracks) in the DC's lifetime?
TXR is not a smooth 60fps.
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
Schmev
racing game with daytime tracks is possible on the DC.
The hiccups TXR experiences is when you come across two AI cars, and it is a
design flaw rather than a hardware flaw.
But you knew that, Darien. Right?
Schmev
Darien Allen <darienNO...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:cmqb8ss4i5dr13nla...@4ax.com...
NonDeskript
> I HIGHLY doubt we'll see any great car racer running at 60fps on the DC.
> This means multiple AI, daytime tracks, great graphics, etc. Sorry, I like
> my DC but I don't think it could do it----that's my opinion/prediction.
Your opinion and 50 cents will buy you a coke.
> The "first gen" game excuse is getting a bit old for me---so can that idea
> and give me facts if you want to argue with me.
The first gen thing is a fact. Compare RR1 on PSX to GT2. Do /you/ have
some facts to back up this outrageous idea?
> MSR=30 fps if lucky. I wonder why it's delayed...
> SegaGT=who knows, but I bet it ain't 60fps.
Don't tell this to Acclaim who claim to have Vanishing Point running at
60fps.
-David
terrell gibbs
<jkit...@netpci.com> wrote:
>I HIGHLY doubt we'll see any great car racer running at 60fps on the DC.
>This means multiple AI, daytime tracks, great graphics, etc. Sorry, I like
>my DC but I don't think it could do it----that's my opinion/prediction.
When first-generation DC games are managing to run at 60 fps for much of the
time, with occasional drops to 30, I think there is little doubt, based on
improvements that we've seen on other consoles, that stable 60 Hz, with improved
graphics and AI, is not far away.
Gregory K
Jeff Williams
Darien Allen <darienNO...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Now at the time of Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:17:02 GMT, "Schmev" <schmev@"no
> spam"flash.net> we were graced with this statement:
>
> >Why TXR is first generation and runs at 60fps. You don't think they
can add
> >multiple tracks to that game(daytime tracks) in the DC's lifetime?
>
> TXR is not a smooth 60fps.
Yes it is. You're confusing game slowdown with frame rate slowdown.
The game slows down randomly very occasionally when it's got a lot of
math to do, but the graphics never drop below 60fps. It never gets
jerky, as SR2 does, it just gets slow.
As to MSR, it's already been announced that it's 30fps - no surprise
there. Crazy Taxi runs at 60fps just like the arcade game - any Naomi
game will run at the same frame rate on the DC. You can't compare SR2
to Crazy Taxi - SR2 was not a Naomi game.
--
// Jeff Williams
// ge...@nervhq.org
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Isaac Kuo
MWatcher <mwat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Did anyone check out the quicktime movies at dc.ign.com? It seems that the
>game has a slower framerate than the arcade version...or are these movies
>just showing pre-alphas? I was kinda disappointed with the 'imperfect' Sega
>Rally 2...so I'm not too crazy about an 'imperfect' Crazy Taxi.
Have you ever checked out any quicktime movies of any game you've
ever actually seen? Movies you download off the internet suck,
even if the original was only low resolution at 320x240 as well.
It's because they're highly compressed and captured at 30fps or
lower at low resolution to keep them down to a reasonable size.
Go and download any movie file for any game you've seen in person.
See for yourself.
The arcade Crazi Taxi is running essentially on DC hardware.
What you see in the arcades is what you should expect at home
(plus extra features, and assuming you're using a VGA box).
--
_____ Isaac Kuo k...@bit.csc.lsu.edu http://www.csc.lsu.edu/~kuo
__|_)o(_|__ ICQ 29055726
/___________\
\=\)-----(/=/ "Why does Mini-Bigglesworth not have fur?"
Schmev
for my view.
Schmev
"Schmev" <schmev@"no spam"flash.net> wrote in message
news:Xmjh4.5385$V84.2...@news.flash.net...
> Sure, but that does not come close to proving the notion that a 60 fps
> racing game with daytime tracks is possible on the DC.
>
> The hiccups TXR experiences is when you come across two AI cars, and it is
a
> design flaw rather than a hardware flaw.
>
> But you knew that, Darien. Right?
>
> Schmev
>
> Darien Allen <darienNO...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:cmqb8ss4i5dr13nla...@4ax.com...
> > Now at the time of Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:17:02 GMT, "Schmev" <schmev@"no
> > spam"flash.net> we were graced with this statement:
> >
> > >Why TXR is first generation and runs at 60fps. You don't think they
can
> add
> > >multiple tracks to that game(daytime tracks) in the DC's lifetime?
> >
> > TXR is not a smooth 60fps.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
> >
> > Darien Allen
> > ICQ-2927081
>
>
Nick Zitzmann
article <%kdh4.18536$Dv1.4...@news2.rdc1.on.home.com>:
> Did anyone check out the quicktime movies at dc.ign.com? It seems that the
> game has a slower framerate than the arcade version...or are these movies
> just showing pre-alphas? I was kinda disappointed with the 'imperfect' Sega
> Rally 2...so I'm not too crazy about an 'imperfect' Crazy Taxi.
I don't really care as long as the frame rate doesn't drop to the point
where it's unplayable (5-10 frames/sec.). 30 frames/sec. is okay with me.
Nick Zitzmann ICQ: 22305512
To see my real signature, finger my E-Mail address.
dma
>
> MWatcher at <mwat...@hotmail.com> was hit with a Spoon for saying this in
> article <%kdh4.18536$Dv1.4...@news2.rdc1.on.home.com>:
>
> > Did anyone check out the quicktime movies at dc.ign.com? It seems that the
> > game has a slower framerate than the arcade version...or are these movies
> > just showing pre-alphas? I was kinda disappointed with the 'imperfect' Sega
> > Rally 2...so I'm not too crazy about an 'imperfect' Crazy Taxi.
>
> I don't really care as long as the frame rate doesn't drop to the point
> where it's unplayable (5-10 frames/sec.). 30 frames/sec. is okay with me.
Not a flame, but 5-10 is too low... the lowest you would
want to go on a racer is around 15-20fps... luckily, we
don't have to. :)
dma
>
> Nick Zitzmann wrote:
>
> > I don't really care as long as the frame rate doesn't drop to the point
> > where it's unplayable (5-10 frames/sec.). 30 frames/sec. is okay with me.
>
> Not a flame, but 5-10 is too low... the lowest you would
> want to go on a racer is around 15-20fps... luckily, we
> don't have to. :)
Whoops, I read that wrong. You agree with me that 5-10fps
is too low/unplayable... my mistake. :)
Black Lion
game slows down... if you were moving at 10 feet per frame - at 60
frames per second that would be 600 feet in 1 second. Framerate
slowdown would still make you go 600 feet in that second.
With Tokyo Xtreme Racer, the speed of the game very occasionally drops
instead of the framerate - so you'd be going 5 feet per frame, but still
at 60 frames per second... for a total of 300 feet in 1 second, but a
nice smooth 300 feet. Everything else slows down to that speed as
well. The slowdown only lasts for about a second or so each time it
happens (I've had it happen a grand total of 5 times...in 7-8 hrs total
play), so it really doesn't bother me.
Disclaimer: The feet per frame numbers are just used as an example. 600
feet per second would be about 400 miles an hour.
howlinghat wrote:
>
> if the game slows down, so does the framerate. If the processor is
> under too much load , the video system does not recieve its data as
> fast and therefor frames are not drawn as quickly. The video system is
> not going to keep drawing the same frame while it waits for more data
> from the cpu, which would be the only way it could maintain a constant
> fps regardless.
> Also, it is not that big of deal if games only run at 30fps. This is
> faster than films run in the movies. It is better to give the cpu more
> time for A.I. and other calculations. It's great that the current games
> can run at 60fps, but that just means that the DC has room to grow if
> given twice the time to process (30fps vs 60fps).
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
--
Later,
-Black Lion
ICQ#:5326196
AOL IM:Ben Stylus
eBay: BenStylus
----------------------------------------------------
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You'll find my favourite axe.
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also uses: gar...@pacbell.net
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pokem...@xoommail.com
(Brad Lowenberg - Moorpark CA 93021)
John Kitchar
little details in the distance for examples. Again only one AI and still it
chokes when things heat up.
JMK
Schmev > wrote in message ...
>I highly doubt we WON'T see a great racer at 60 fps.
>
>Why TXR is first generation and runs at 60fps. You don't think they can
add
>multiple tracks to that game(daytime tracks) in the DC's lifetime?
>
>Sounds quite pessimistic to me.
>
>Schmev
>
>John Kitchar <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote in message
>news:86400...@enews3.newsguy.com...
>> I HIGHLY doubt we'll see any great car racer running at 60fps on the DC.
>> This means multiple AI, daytime tracks, great graphics, etc. Sorry, I
like
>> my DC but I don't think it could do it----that's my opinion/prediction.
>>
>> The "first gen" game excuse is getting a bit old for me---so can that
idea
>> and give me facts if you want to argue with me.
>>
>> MSR=30 fps if lucky. I wonder why it's delayed...
>> SegaGT=who knows, but I bet it ain't 60fps.
>>
>>
>> JMK
>>
>>
>> MWatcher wrote in message
>> >Did anyone check out the quicktime movies at dc.ign.com? It seems that
>the
>> >game has a slower framerate than the arcade version...or are these
movies
>> >just showing pre-alphas? I was kinda disappointed with the 'imperfect'
>> Sega
>> >Rally 2...so I'm not too crazy about an 'imperfect' Crazy Taxi.
>> >
>> >MWatcher
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
John Kitchar
the DC, it just seems like the hardware is being pushed just to hit 30fps.
Do I have to list every game where I see slowdown/framerate problems?
The DC is a HUGE improvement over the PSX of course and I'm very happy I
purchased two of them (Asian and US) but I feel that it could use a bit more
power. I don't like it that already, simple games outrun the system---I
expected the opposite from a brand new "powerful" system. Geeesh, you'd
think that we'd have a bit of breathing room in first gen games. But no, we
get pop-up, 10fps, stuttering loads, etc.
I don't like it that Re-Volt has this code to make the cars more detailed at
the _expence of track detail_. Let me tell you it comes with a great
expence---massive pop-up and draw right in your face. Not a pretty sight. I
heard that Re-Volt runs faster on a average PC these days. V8's textures
draw/pop-up 30 feet in front of your car. SR2 has a 30fps code. WTF is up
with this?
I believe the programmers tried everything they could think of to eliminate
these problems. OK, Namco has the skills it takes but I'm concerned that the
DC isn't powerful enough for the average developer's somewhat sloppy
programming. It should be IMO.
Yeah sure, in the future, some few developers will figure out how to make a
DC game hit smooth 60 fps but the _majority of the games_ will have
framerate problems---like we have now. Say a ratio of 20 slow games to one
smooth. They all (or most) should be smooth IMO. The DC should be made
powerful enough to handle the "average programmer"---not just the elite
Namco.
Again, I hope you all are right.
JMK
terrell gibbs wrote in message ...
>In article <86400...@enews3.newsguy.com>, "John Kitchar"
><jkit...@netpci.com> wrote:
>
>>I HIGHLY doubt we'll see any great car racer running at 60fps on the DC.
>>This means multiple AI, daytime tracks, great graphics, etc. Sorry, I like
>>my DC but I don't think it could do it----that's my opinion/prediction.
>
Michael R. Baraniecki
<866k7...@enews2.newsguy.com>:
>Hey--I really hope you all are right. It's just that in every game I
>play on the DC, it just seems like the hardware is being pushed just to
>hit 30fps. Do I have to list every game where I see slowdown/framerate
>problems?
>
>The DC is a HUGE improvement over the PSX of course and I'm very happy I
>purchased two of them (Asian and US) but I feel that it could use a bit
>more power. I don't like it that already, simple games outrun the system
>---I expected the opposite from a brand new "powerful" system. Geeesh,
>you'd think that we'd have a bit of breathing room in first gen games.
>But no, we get pop-up, 10fps, stuttering loads, etc.
Now that is exaggeration if I've ever seen it.
>I don't like it that Re-Volt has this code to make the cars more
>detailed at the _expence of track detail_. Let me tell you it comes with
>a great expence---massive pop-up and draw right in your face. Not a
>pretty sight.
I
>heard that Re-Volt runs faster on a average PC these days.
That's why it's not available right away, and is *NOT* the default. It's
just a code, you can choose to do it if you want, if you don't like it,
go back to the way it was. Secondly, I'm not too sure if this was a
Windows CE port or not... the current version is apparantly not so good
at porting games from the PC. Hence we have the "could have been much
better" SR2, the oft-delayed Rainbow 6, and other games with not so
stellar graphics.
I think if it were done from the ground up, using Sega's OS, it would be
much better. (if I'm wrong, somebody please correct me about the Windows
CE thing)
> V8's textures
>draw/pop-up 30 feet in front of your car. SR2 has a 30fps code. WTF is
>up with this?
This game I think is just a *strict* port of the Playstation/N64
versions. It runs at a higher resolution, filters it, and runs it at a
better framerate. It's akin to playing a PS game on Bleem!, I really
doubt that they put any real effort into taking advantage of the DC's
power.
SR2 falls under the Windows CE thing as well.
Notice a trend? All the games you've mentioned are ports. None designed
specifically for the system. Crazy Taxi runs at a constant 60fps (or so
it appears) in the arcade, so it should as well at home. As will probably
just about any title designed specifically for the DC.
And as for your remarks about "don't give me this first-gen stuff"...
like Terrel said, look at RR1 vs. GT2. The graphics are better in GT2,
and the physics, AI, etc are *much much* better. That should be proof
enough. Also, Spyro. When the N64 came out, I don't think anybody thought
that the PS could do a Mario 64 clone that would still look and play
well. But Spyro did it. How about Tekken 1 vs. Tekken 3? Tekken 3 looks
much nicer... heck, look at Tobal No. 2. IMO, the best looking game on
the system. That statement was just so not true.
>I believe the programmers tried everything they could think of to
>eliminate these problems. OK, Namco has the skills it takes but I'm
>concerned that the DC isn't powerful enough for the average developer's
>somewhat sloppy programming. It should be IMO.
>Yeah sure, in the future, some few developers will figure out how to
>make a DC game hit smooth 60 fps but the _majority of the games_ will
>have framerate problems---like we have now. Say a ratio of 20 slow games
>to one smooth. They all (or most) should be smooth IMO. The DC should be
>made powerful enough to handle the "average programmer"---not just the
>elite Namco.
>Again, I hope you all are right.
We are. :) Look at DOA2 and come back and tell me that the DC couldn't
have done Sega Rally 2 at a constant fps, if done with the Sega OS. I
know they're different games, but DOA2 just smooshes SR2 in terms of
looks so much, that I don't doubt it one bit. We'll start seeing a lot of
60fps racers (or car games), starting with Crazy Taxi. The examples you
gave are all cases in which the DC's power wasn't at issue. It was either
lazy programming or the crappy Windows CE. They really need to get that
new version out.
--
-Mike
Michael R. Baraniecki
uni...@netcom.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6470
Videogame MIDIs and Space Ghost sounds galore
Schmev
I bet if you interviewed the developers at Genki, they would tell you that
what you think is impossible is quite possible on the second go-around.
You get nice glimpses of 60fps on the JPN version of Sega Rally 2. I don't
think they spent alot or any time tweaking that game for US localization.
As for your requirements for AI, I'm not sure what you are asking for. For
example, Daytona Saturn has cars roaming the track, each with their own AI.
Whether each AI is completely different(like the behavior of the ghosts in
PacMan) is doubtful. Yet each car has an AI.
I think you are being a little shortsighted on the differences between games
at the beginning of a system's lifetime and the games that are produced near
the endpoint and late in a system's lifetime.
Schmev
John Kitchar <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote in message
news:866ib...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> TXR uses EVERY trick in the book to hit 60fps---one AI, night tracks with
> little details in the distance for examples. Again only one AI and still
it
> chokes when things heat up.
>
> JMK
>
>
> Schmev > wrote in message ...
> >I highly doubt we WON'T see a great racer at 60 fps.
> >
> >Why TXR is first generation and runs at 60fps. You don't think they can
> add
> >multiple tracks to that game(daytime tracks) in the DC's lifetime?
> >
> >Sounds quite pessimistic to me.
> >
> >Schmev
> >
> >John Kitchar <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote in message
> >news:86400...@enews3.newsguy.com...
> >> I HIGHLY doubt we'll see any great car racer running at 60fps on the
DC.
> >> This means multiple AI, daytime tracks, great graphics, etc. Sorry, I
> like
> >> my DC but I don't think it could do it----that's my opinion/prediction.
> >>
terrell gibbs
<jkit...@netpci.com> wrote:
>Hey--I really hope you all are right. It's just that in every game I play on
>the DC, it just seems like the hardware is being pushed just to hit 30fps.
>Do I have to list every game where I see slowdown/framerate problems?
I don't know of any system that did *not* have slowdown, framerate, or pop-up
problems in early games, which were eliminated in most games later on. That's
just the nature of the beast--it takes programmers awhile to learn how to use a
system most efficiently.
NonDeskript
> Hey--I really hope you all are right. It's just that in every game I play on
> the DC, it just seems like the hardware is being pushed just to hit 30fps.
> Do I have to list every game where I see slowdown/framerate problems?
Do I have to list every first gen title for every system ever made that
features slowdown? What makes you think the hardware is being pushed just
to hit 30FPS? Did Toshinden 1 push the PSX hardware?
> The DC is a HUGE improvement over the PSX of course and I'm very happy I
> purchased two of them (Asian and US) but I feel that it could use a bit more
> power. I don't like it that already, simple games outrun the system---I
> expected the opposite from a brand new "powerful" system. Geeesh, you'd
> think that we'd have a bit of breathing room in first gen games. But no, we
> get pop-up, 10fps, stuttering loads, etc.
Every system has these problems. The only way they could have been
avoided would have been to make the games look like PSX games while the
programmers learned how to use the system. And that would have pretty
much killed the DC.
> I don't like it that Re-Volt has this code to make the cars more detailed at
> the _expence of track detail_. Let me tell you it comes with a great
> expence---massive pop-up and draw right in your face. Not a pretty sight. I
> heard that Re-Volt runs faster on a average PC these days. V8's textures
> draw/pop-up 30 feet in front of your car. SR2 has a 30fps code. WTF is up
> with this?
The Re-Volt thing is a code. That should be self explanatory. As for V8,
its a PSX/N64 port that doesn't take full advantage of the DC hardware.
> I believe the programmers tried everything they could think of to eliminate
> these problems. OK, Namco has the skills it takes but I'm concerned that the
> DC isn't powerful enough for the average developer's somewhat sloppy
> programming. It should be IMO.
You believe the programmers tried everything? That and 50 cents will buy
you a soda. These are first gen games, the programmers couldn't have
tried everyhting. Sloppy programmers will have the same problem on every
system, always have. Luckily, they tend to be in the minority. Thats
there aren't PSX games coming out now that look like 1st gen ones. The
programmers learned how to use the system.
> Yeah sure, in the future, some few developers will figure out how to make a
> DC game hit smooth 60 fps but the _majority of the games_ will have
> framerate problems---like we have now. Say a ratio of 20 slow games to one
> smooth. They all (or most) should be smooth IMO. The DC should be made
> powerful enough to handle the "average programmer"---not just the elite
> Namco.
> Again, I hope you all are right.
Well, since you are basing this off of first generation software and
poorly done ports, I'd have to say that you are wrong.
-David
Darien Allen
(Michael R. Baraniecki) we were graced with this statement:
>We are. :) Look at DOA2 and come back and tell me that the DC couldn't
>have done Sega Rally 2 at a constant fps, if done with the Sega OS. I
>know they're different games, but DOA2 just smooshes SR2 in terms of
>looks so much, that I don't doubt it one bit. We'll start seeing a lot of
>60fps racers (or car games), starting with Crazy Taxi. The examples you
>gave are all cases in which the DC's power wasn't at issue. It was either
>lazy programming or the crappy Windows CE. They really need to get that
>new version out.
How do you compare a fighting game to a race game and make that kind
of assumption?
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
howlinghat
Incossee
John Kitchar wrote in message <866k7...@enews2.newsguy.com>...
>Hey--I really hope you all are right. It's just that in every game I play
on
>the DC, it just seems like the hardware is being pushed just to hit 30fps.
>Do I have to list every game where I see slowdown/framerate problems?
If some DC games run great at 60 fps, how is it that the hardware is being
pushed on the games that run at 30 fps? It's not the hardware, it's the
programming. New hardware takes time for developers to learn--always has,
always will. Also, with new technology and more power, a lot of programmers
simply aren't talented enough to create games that take advantage of the
added capabilities. Quick, sloppy ports, and a bad early build of Windows
CE have made games look a lot worse than what's possible (probably most of
the ones you are referring to), and what will inevitably become common over
the next year. New dev. tools will come along, programmers will get better,
they will build upon what they know, and improve. To think otherwise for
even a second would be foolish. Listen to Terrell, he's usually right.
>The DC is a HUGE improvement over the PSX of course and I'm very happy I
>purchased two of them (Asian and US) but I feel that it could use a bit
more
>power. I don't like it that already, simple games outrun the system---I
>expected the opposite from a brand new "powerful" system. Geeesh, you'd
>think that we'd have a bit of breathing room in first gen games. But no, we
>get pop-up, 10fps, stuttering loads, etc.
10 fps? I heard some accounts of Slave Zero getting down to like 15 or so,
but come on, if there are games like that, they are very rare and certainly
no reflection of the DC's performance. I'm not sure what stuttering loads
are... can't say that I've seen anything by that description.
>I don't like it that Re-Volt has this code to make the cars more detailed
at
>the _expence of track detail_. Let me tell you it comes with a great
>expence---massive pop-up and draw right in your face. Not a pretty sight. I
>heard that Re-Volt runs faster on a average PC these days. V8's textures
>draw/pop-up 30 feet in front of your car.
V8 was developed for multiple platforms (and based on the original V8 engine
for PSX), and pop up is definitely nowhere near 30 feet in front of your
car. You're really being ridiculous in your exaggerations here. It's also
worth noting that it runs at a smooth 60 fps on DC.
>I believe the programmers tried everything they could think of to eliminate
>these problems. OK, Namco has the skills it takes but I'm concerned that
the
>DC isn't powerful enough for the average developer's somewhat sloppy
>programming. It should be IMO.
There's no cure for sloppy programming. There's also no substitute for
experience. Developers will get better and more experienced, as they always
have in the past. Soul Calibur, Shenmue, and Resident Evil: Code Veronica
are visually incredible games, that mark what the new standards will be.
And there will most certainly be games that even surpass these.
>Yeah sure, in the future, some few developers will figure out how to make a
>DC game hit smooth 60 fps but the _majority of the games_ will have
>framerate problems---like we have now. Say a ratio of 20 slow games to one
>smooth.
You have a crystal ball or something? I'm totally confident that you are
wrong, because historically speaking, and simple common sense says that this
prediction is crazy. I remember when I first got my PSX, I was amazed at
Toshinden and Ridge Racer. Graphically, I was dazzled, but after seeing
those games recently, I have trouble believing that RR Type 4 and Tobal 2
were done on the same system. The PSX has come light years since it began,
with games improving on textures, polygon count, lighting, framerate,
draw-in/pop-up, and every other graphical aspect--all within the same game.
All accompanied by better AI, larger environments, more gameplay, and every
other conceivable way of improving. Nothing had to be sacrificed, as
everything was possible to improve. The standards improved, and 1st gen PSX
games bare little to no resemblence to 3rd gen games. The PSX has clearly
peaked, but the DC? If you think it's peaked already, you should go hang
out with enoryt...
SamIam
the PS2 is hurting support for the DC. Things may have changed but I
remember when developers started receiving their kits, most were saying
that the PS2 is very hard to develope for. In fact some said that there
were currently only about 5 companies (this was about a year ago) with
the resources to develope for the PS2. Could it be possible that a lot
of developers are putting most of their resources on the PS2? Just a
thought. That would help explain the delays (not the ones by Sega).
But I think your suggestions below, that these are just first generation
games, is the main reason for the 30fps.
Bart Trzynadlowski
that sort of a framerate? The less time drawing frames, the more time the system
has for meaningful CPU time. Sega Rally 2 had no noticable slowdown when I
played it. You people need to get your facts straight, and realize that FPS
isn't that important. Also, QT movies are fairly low-quality -- if its
impossible to tell what 60fps is by looking at the actual image, looking at a QT
movie won't improve your chances.
terrell gibbs
>That's the strange part about TXR - the frame rate doesn't drop when the
>game slows down... if you were moving at 10 feet per frame - at 60
>frames per second that would be 600 feet in 1 second. Framerate
>slowdown would still make you go 600 feet in that second.
>
>With Tokyo Xtreme Racer, the speed of the game very occasionally drops
>instead of the framerate - so you'd be going 5 feet per frame, but still
>at 60 frames per second... for a total of 300 feet in 1 second, but a
>nice smooth 300 feet. Everything else slows down to that speed as
>well. The slowdown only lasts for about a second or so each time it
>happens (I've had it happen a grand total of 5 times...in 7-8 hrs total
>play), so it really doesn't bother me.
It seems clear that this has nothing to do with the processor being overloaded,
because it doesn't take any more computer time to move the car 10 virtual "feet"
per frame than to move it 5 feet per frame. It sounds like a simple bug, which
fits with the rarity of the event.
dma
>
> You really can't see any difference between 60fps and 30-40fps. Who cares about
> that sort of a framerate? The less time drawing frames, the more time the system
> has for meaningful CPU time. Sega Rally 2 had no noticable slowdown when I
> played it. You people need to get your facts straight, and realize that FPS
> isn't that important. Also, QT movies are fairly low-quality -- if its
> impossible to tell what 60fps is by looking at the actual image, looking at a QT
> movie won't improve your chances.
An animation at 60fps is smooth as glass. The same animation
at 30fps will have a "blurry" look to it in comparison. One
of the reasons Soul Calibur and NFL2K look as good as they do
is because they are running at 60fps. Run either of them at
30fps and the impact they have on the viewer would diminish.
One of the first games that brought this fact to light for
Amiga owners was Shadow of the Beast. Running at 60fps with
13 levels of parallax was visually stunning for the time.
Especially in a side-scroller, if you cut the framerate in
half to 30fps, you lose an incredible amount of clarity.
You really have to see it to believe it.
Darien Allen
<tgi...@bu.edu> we were graced with this statement:
>>With Tokyo Xtreme Racer, the speed of the game very occasionally drops
>>instead of the framerate - so you'd be going 5 feet per frame, but still
>>at 60 frames per second... for a total of 300 feet in 1 second, but a
>>nice smooth 300 feet. Everything else slows down to that speed as
>>well. The slowdown only lasts for about a second or so each time it
>>happens (I've had it happen a grand total of 5 times...in 7-8 hrs total
>>play), so it really doesn't bother me.
>
>It seems clear that this has nothing to do with the processor being overloaded,
>because it doesn't take any more computer time to move the car 10 virtual "feet"
>per frame than to move it 5 feet per frame. It sounds like a simple bug, which
>fits with the rarity of the event.
Rare? Hardly. As you proceed through the game and pick up faster
cars it occurs more often.
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
John Kitchar
I'm not about to answer every post but I'll stand with these following
statements/opinions.
1) The DC was supposed to be able to "do" PC ports easily. Obviously, it
can't.
2) Programmers are smarter than we give credit. Why Slave Zero looks/runs
like shit is beyond me but I bet the guys/gals working on the game would
have liked a bit more power in the DC. The code in Re-Volt to make the cars
more detailed---why wasn't that the default mode?
3) Just because Tekken3 ran at 60fps on the PSX did not prove that PSX
racing games like RRT4 and GT would also run at 60fps. In case you missed
the point they didn't. So DOA2's 60fps means nothing. I still say that we
won't see a car _racer_ with lots of AI and "Soul Calibur" graphics running
at 60fps. MSR will be lucky to hang on to 30.
4) Crazy Taxi is a racing game? Like, racing 12-20 AI that actually races
you? I know little about the game but I bet it isn't really a racing
game---more like Driver I bet. Not a racing game. BTW, the 5 poly traffic
drones in TXR are NOT what I would call AI. Either are the slow-pokes in
SR2.
5) A racing game, like NFSHS in 640X480 running at a solid 60 fps is close
to what I'm talking about here. You know, a game where you race stuff
through streets and such. But still, I would like a bit more AI to race. I
still say the DC couldn't do it. Maybe 30 fps like MSR if everything goes
well---like luck.
6) Until we see such a game running on the DC I'm afraid I'm right.
JMK
Joe Ottoson
<jkit...@netpci.com> wrote:
> Lots of comments here---looks like we all find this interesting at least.
> I'm not about to answer every post but I'll stand with these following
> statements/opinions.
>
> 1) The DC was supposed to be able to "do" PC ports easily. Obviously, it
> can't.
Not that that is an obvious conclusion at all. There have been some bad
ports and there have been several good ports as well.
> 2) Programmers are smarter than we give credit. Why Slave Zero looks/runs
> like shit is beyond me but I bet the guys/gals working on the game would
> have liked a bit more power in the DC.
Depends on a lotta things. Some companies just ram a port though
without really allowing time for proper optimization etc. If a game
gets run though that kinda meat grinder, it's going to suck even if
they target system's more powerful than the origional's hardware target
was. (Saturn Doom's a great example of that.)
> 3) Just because Tekken3 ran at 60fps on the PSX did not prove that PSX
> racing games like RRT4 and GT would also run at 60fps.
I tend to rely on the fact that the PSx does have a few 60fps racers as
proof that the system can manage it given the right programming.
In case you missed
> the point they didn't. So DOA2's 60fps means nothing. I still say that we
> won't see a car _racer_ with lots of AI and "Soul Calibur" graphics running
> at 60fps. MSR will be lucky to hang on to 30.
Your knowledge is fractured again...
> 6) Until we see such a game running on the DC I'm afraid I'm right.
Kinda a pointless and technically lacking "right" overall but have fun
with it...
terrell gibbs
>Lots of comments here---looks like we all find this interesting at least.
>I'm not about to answer every post but I'll stand with these following
>statements/opinions.
>
>1) The DC was supposed to be able to "do" PC ports easily. Obviously, it
>can't.
"Easily" is a relative term. Nobody ever claimed that it would be impossible to
do a bad port, or that every port would run instantly at 60 fps.
>
>2) Programmers are smarter than we give credit. Why Slave Zero looks/runs
>like shit is beyond me but I bet the guys/gals working on the game would
>have liked a bit more power in the DC. The code in Re-Volt to make the cars
>more detailed---why wasn't that the default mode?
One can certainly hide poor programming with more power. On the other hand, an
improvement in an algorithm can sometimes improve efficiency by an order of
magnitude.
>4) Crazy Taxi is a racing game? Like, racing 12-20 AI that actually races
>you? I know little about the game but I bet it isn't really a racing
>game---more like Driver I bet. Not a racing game. BTW, the 5 poly traffic
>drones in TXR are NOT what I would call AI. Either are the slow-pokes in
>SR2.
I thought the whole issue was the mistaken notion that CT runs at 30 fps.
Personally, in most racing games, I can barely perceive the difference between
30 and 60 fps. I'd probably prefer it if such games ran at 30 fps, and used the
extra power for better AI, more complex character models, and longer sight lines.
Schmev
> 5) A racing game, like NFSHS in 640X480 running at a solid 60 fps is
close
> to what I'm talking about here. You know, a game where you race stuff
> through streets and such. But still, I would like a bit more AI to race. I
> still say the DC couldn't do it. Maybe 30 fps like MSR if everything goes
> well---like luck.
>
> 6) Until we see such a game running on the DC I'm afraid I'm right.
>
> JMK
>
>
Sigh.
Schmev
NonDeskript
> Lots of comments here---looks like we all find this interesting at least.
> I'm not about to answer every post but I'll stand with these following
> statements/opinions.
>
> 1) The DC was supposed to be able to "do" PC ports easily. Obviously, it
> can't.
And you base this on what exactly?
> 2) Programmers are smarter than we give credit. Why Slave Zero looks/runs
> like shit is beyond me but I bet the guys/gals working on the game would
> have liked a bit more power in the DC. The code in Re-Volt to make the cars
> more detailed---why wasn't that the default mode?
Every programmer would like every system to be more powerful. And as for
the Re-Volt code, its not the default because it lowers the track
quality. As for why Slave Zero looks and runs like shit, its for the same
reason that so many games look and run like shit. Because they are bad
games. Is Slave Zero the first bad game you've ever seen? Do you think
that there won't be games that look and run like shit on the PS2 or the
Dolphin or the X-Box? Are you really that clueless?
> 3) Just because Tekken3 ran at 60fps on the PSX did not prove that PSX
> racing games like RRT4 and GT would also run at 60fps. In case you missed
> the point they didn't. So DOA2's 60fps means nothing. I still say that we
> won't see a car _racer_ with lots of AI and "Soul Calibur" graphics running
> at 60fps. MSR will be lucky to hang on to 30.
And you base this on what? First-gen games? I think thats the reason
noone takes you seriously. If we looked at the first gen game on the PSX
or on the Saturn or on the SNES or etc etc and said "This is all this
system can do." we'd obviously be lying to ourselves. Why is the DC any
different?
> 4) Crazy Taxi is a racing game? Like, racing 12-20 AI that actually races
> you? I know little about the game but I bet it isn't really a racing
> game---more like Driver I bet. Not a racing game. BTW, the 5 poly traffic
> drones in TXR are NOT what I would call AI. Either are the slow-pokes in
> SR2.
Sure, Crazy Taxi isn't a racing game. Its more complex. Its a driving
game. Rather than driving in circles you have a much larger area to drive
that is much more complex with much more traffic.
> 5) A racing game, like NFSHS in 640X480 running at a solid 60 fps is close
> to what I'm talking about here. You know, a game where you race stuff
> through streets and such. But still, I would like a bit more AI to race. I
> still say the DC couldn't do it. Maybe 30 fps like MSR if everything goes
> well---like luck.
Luck? So we now depend on luck for good games? Jesus christ...
> 6) Until we see such a game running on the DC I'm afraid I'm right.
Sure. So I guess the DC can't handle a complex side scrolling platform
game because we haven't seen that yet either, right?
-David
Jeff Williams
Darien Allen <darienNO...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Rare? Hardly. As you proceed through the game and pick up faster
> cars it occurs more often.
I haven't noticed this. It happens when there are 3 or 4 cars on the
screen at once, usually when going through a particularly complex part
of the raceway (such as the little divided underpasses where you can
easily trap an AI car). With a faster car this might happen a tad more
often just because you're hitting those parts of the track more often
in any given period of time, but the speed of the cars itself doesn't
seem to have much to do with it, and I haven't noticed a big increase
in the slowdown as I've progressed in the game.
And to whoever said game slowdown equals frame rate slowdown (an
earlier reply to me) doesn't much know how computer graphics work. As
long as the Power VR is getting the information it needs every 60th of
a second or less from the SH-4, it'll draw a new frame. The problem is
the SH-4 apparently is being overloaded with calculations, and while it
seems to be locked into sending information to the PowerVR every 60th
of a second (I'd think this would be easy to program), it's falling
behind on the calculations themselves. But the PowerVR's not having
any trouble keeping up - it's clearly getting new information into its
frame buffer when it needs it, and the SH-4 seems to be having no
trouble with the I/O sending that information, it seems it's just the
internal math calculations that are falling behind for whatever
reason. I'd say it *is* a bug more than anything (it almost seems like
the AI just gets confused and gets caught in a momentary loop); it's
most definitely not frame rate slowdown.
--
// Jeff Williams
// ge...@nervhq.org
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jeff Williams
"John Kitchar" <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote:
> Lots of comments here---looks like we all find this interesting at
least.
> I'm not about to answer every post but I'll stand with these following
> statements/opinions.
>
> 1) The DC was supposed to be able to "do" PC ports easily. Obviously,
it
> can't.
Obviously. If you can't do a good PC port, I guess no one can, right?
> 2) Programmers are smarter than we give credit. Why Slave Zero
looks/runs
> like shit is beyond me but I bet the guys/gals working on the game
would
> have liked a bit more power in the DC.
Not what they said in interviews at the time (prior to the game's
release)...
>
> 3) Just because Tekken3 ran at 60fps on the PSX did not prove that PSX
> racing games like RRT4 and GT would also run at 60fps.
And just because R4 and GT ran at 30fps didn't prove that other racing
games couldn't run at 60fps on the system (a few did). Regardless, TXR
TXR TXR. I don't know how many times people have to say it. You may
not have played it, but it does exist, and it does run at 60fps. And
it's a first gen racing game.
> 4) Crazy Taxi is a racing game? Like, racing 12-20 AI that actually
races
> you? I know little about the game but I bet it isn't really a racing
> game---more like Driver I bet.
Yeah, a game with tons of traffic, pedestrians, waterfowl, etc. More
stuff going on than any racing game I've seen.
Not a racing game. BTW, the 5 poly traffic
> drones in TXR are NOT what I would call AI.
No, but the racers themselves have more AI than most other racing
games' entire field of racers combined.
> 5) A racing game, like NFSHS in 640X480 running at a solid 60 fps is
close
> to what I'm talking about here.
Man, my PC can run that game at 1024x768 at over 60fps and my PC is
less powerful than the DC. If you think the DC can't do that, you're
in for some surprises down the road.
> 6) Until we see such a game running on the DC I'm afraid I'm right.
Someone needs to take a logic course, I think. "Cannot" be done
and "have not been done" are separate things even using your criteria,
and your criteria is flawed as it is, as we've already got a 60fps
racer with strong AI in the first generation of DC games.
I guess "right" is a relative term to you...
terrell gibbs
wrote:
>But the PowerVR's not having
>any trouble keeping up - it's clearly getting new information into its
>frame buffer when it needs it, and the SH-4 seems to be having no
>trouble with the I/O sending that information, it seems it's just the
>internal math calculations that are falling behind for whatever
>reason. I'd say it *is* a bug more than anything (it almost seems like
>the AI just gets confused and gets caught in a momentary loop); it's
>most definitely not frame rate slowdown.
Presumably, the mathematics calculates the movement of the vehicle every delta-t
(e.g. 1/60th of a second) based on vehicle speed, and then calculates the
polygon positions based on the new vehicle positions, and sends those to the
powerVR. If the math calculations were falling behind, you wouldn't get a frame
in which the vehicle moved a shorter distance; there would be no information to
calculate the new frame at all, and the powerVR would have to display the
previous frame, resulting in a frame rate decrease. So it sounds more likely
that there is a mathematical error such that (for example) it is calculating
positions based on a delta-t of 1/120th second (but still sending it to the
powerVR at 1/60th second increments, or (what amounts to the same thing in the
final result) an error in the speed such that it is calculating the change in
position for a speed of 60 mph when the speed is supposed to be 120 mph.
Scott X
minimum of what the system can do. This is true for the first gen games of
every system. If what has been said here about the DC being maxed out by
these first run games is true then the following statements would also be
true.
The Genesis can only display a maximum five characters on the screen at
one time and one-two backgrounds at any given time, because this is what
Altered Beast, Revenge of Shinobi and Golden Axe did.
The Snes can only show four characters on screen while slowing down,
because this is what Final Fight, Super Ghouls and Ghosts, and other first
gen games did, in addition to only having one or two seperate background
sheets.
The Saturn can only display 100,000 polys per second, because this is
what VF1, Daytona and Panzer Dragoon was like. Similarly the PSX was
limited to RR1, Toshinden and Twisted Metal, and could do no better.
None of this is true, the Genesis had Shinobi 3, Sonic, Streets of Rage
1-3, and many many others have seemingly limitless sprites or backgrounds at
one time. The Snes had, er, something that proved it could display more
than four sprites at one time with paralax. The Saturn had NiGHTs, VF2,
Sega Rally, Virtua Cop 1+2, Panzer Dragoon Zwei and Saga, and countless
others that shoot above and beyond the detail limits "set" by the first run
titles, as did the PSX.
For one thing the current run of DC games were made on an older
Sega/WinCE OS than is currently available. The new Dev Kits actually make
the DC's power much more available while the prior ones used less than 60%
of its power. Most every game on the system so far is a port from another
piece of inferior hardware, there is not one game in the US yet that pushes
the DC, and only a few have actually been designed with the DC in mind. The
standard for gaming right now is the PSX and the PC, neither of which have,
or have had long enough, the poly munching power of the DC, or in the case
of the later, the texture capacity. It will take time for developers to
become willing to take the extra time to use these added capabilites, much
less all of the special effects that the PVRSG has available.
For another thing, Crazy Taxi does run at 60fps from every account I
have read, any movies are going to show lower because they do not run at
60fps, this is even true for DC native MPEG softdeck movies, even games like
V8:SO run at a higher framerate than the movie files do.
Any of you who think that the DC is limited by its first gen games, are
going to be even more dissapointed by the first gen PS2 games as not even
the great GT2000 pushes the system in the slightest and has often been
compared to TXR.
Scott X
are due to companies not wanting to release a half backed product. These
things are very normal for a new system, and the DC has a faster game flow
than any system has to date, at the same time from launch. Delays are
unavoidable even on seasoned platforms, see GT2 for a prime example.
For another thing, there are easily more games coming out that aren't
being delayed or that came out early than there are delayed games. The
problem is every delay gets reported so thoroughly by every game rag, and
none of them mention the on time releases or early releases nearly as often.
I sincerely doubt that the PS2 is causing any of this, its more likely Sega
has caused more delays in third party games by rejecting them than Sony has
with its PS2.
"SamIam" <S...@say.no.to.spam> wrote in message
news:38876061...@say.no.to.spam...
NonDeskript
> They are the bare minimum of what the system can do.
I wouldn't say they are the bare minimum any more than I would say they
are the maximum. DC can do a lot more and a LOT less than what we're
seeing right now ;)
-David
Darien Allen
<incos...@excite.com> we were graced with this statement:
>
>John Kitchar wrote in message <86944...@enews4.newsguy.com>...
>
>>6) Until we see such a game running on the DC I'm afraid I'm right.
>>
>>JMK
>
>I've never orbitted the earth in a space shuttle... I guess you'd be right
>again if you insisted the earth was flat. You really know how to make a
>persuasive argument.
It is flat you know.......
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
Incossee
Scott X
from which all future DC games will be judged. Bare minimum, anything less
will not be considered a good game.
"NonDeskript" <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote in message
news:MPG.12f26d914...@news.pdq.net...
NonDeskript
> That's true, what I meant to say is that they are the standard for DC,
> from which all future DC games will be judged. Bare minimum, anything less
> will not be considered a good game.
Again, I'm going to have to disagree. I'm hoping to see some "classics"
collection on the DC someday, and those would definitely use less of the
DC's power than the current games. And if they port the right games over
as "classics" they would still be considered good games (maybe a
Nights/Christmas Nights collection or a Sonic Complete, including Sonic
R, and that 3d Sonic game, or hopefully some of the Capcom fighters that
came out on Saturn.. mmmm a DarkStalkers collection... yummy).
-David, who's just being a nitpicking ass, for the record ;)
Scott X
mean, which I'm sure you understand anyway, without it becoming too wordy.
New games, yeah, new games will be judged by the current generation of
titles on the DC, if they are less, then they will be judged as inferior.
Is that better? :)
"NonDeskript" <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote in message
news:MPG.12f272253...@news.pdq.net...
NonDeskript
> Then I read about MSR not being 60fps. I doubt Sega GT will be 60 too.
But you base this doubt on nothing.
> _So the guys working on MSR are incompetent?_
Nobody accused any of the programmers of being incompetent, only
inexperienced with the DC hardware.
> Is MSR a first gen game? BTW how
> long (and how many games) will we be able to use the "first gen" excuse? The
> DC has been out for how long in Japan? Do we have to wait 4 years after
> Japan launch to see a 60 fps racer? Do we have to wait until the DC is in
> its last year of life to see this great racer? Man you guys are a patient
> bunch.
I think the problem is more that you are impatient. MSR is a first or
second gen game, depending on how you look at it. But even in second gen
games, the system STILL isn't being maxed out. How long did it take
developers to max out the PSX?
> My point (again) is that the DC is not powerful enought to do a great "GT"
> type racer at 60fps. "Silly" racers like Hydrothunder and this new 4wd
> monster truck thing are not what I meant. I've always been careful to
> specify that it is a game like NFSHS---a "real" looking racer with real cars
> and lots of good looking AI and more important, great AI behavior.
Actually, no you haven't "always been careful to specify" anything. IN
FACT, as you can tell by looking at the subject of this thread it was
started talking about a pure arcade driving game. You're backpedalling.
And NFSHS is hardly a "GT" type racer. Its a step between arcade racers
and GT games, but it most certainly does not feature the realism of Gran
Turismo.
> I've
> always been careful to qualify this as some clown will always find some
> 60fps fighting game to argue with. TXR is not what I'm talking about
> either---with only one AI. If Sega GT is 60 fps then I'd be wrong for
> sure---unless they stick to the old one on-screen AI Ridge Racer gameplay
> like in SR2. I doubt (heck I'd even bet) it ain't 60.
Uh huh. And you base this on what exactly? Nothing? Thanks for
clarifying.
> Looks like I'm all alone on this one---JMK
That should probably tell you something...
-David
David Oldridge
close
> through streets and such. But still, I would like a bit more AI to race. I
> still say the DC couldn't do it. Maybe 30 fps like MSR if everything goes
> well---like luck.
>
Better inform Kalisto then. They've gone through the trouble of coding
4 Wheel Thunder for the Dreamcast to run at 60fps, with decent track detail
and computer AI opponents. I'm sure they'd appreciate your telling them
that they're wasting their time doing what's impossible. Btw, how bright
and competant were you when you were at your best in your first year?
John Kitchar
games I've played that I base my opinion on.
1) SR2: not 60fps
2)TXR: only one AI with night track to hide distant track details and still
not solid 60.
3) Speed Devils: not 60, smooth 30 though
4) Monaco: not 60---30 most of the time. Jap Monaco is smoother but gives up
track details
5) Hydrothunder: not solid 30
6) Re-Volt: not solid 30 in third person---cars details lacking even to
acheive this.
7) Flag to Flag: 30 most of the time---super speed mode is 60 but they give
up the AI and lots of other things to acheive this
All "first gen" games or rushed ports with sloppy programming. FINE.
Then I read about MSR not being 60fps. I doubt Sega GT will be 60 too. _So
the guys working on MSR are incompetent?_ Is MSR a first gen game? BTW how
long (and how many games) will we be able to use the "first gen" excuse? The
DC has been out for how long in Japan? Do we have to wait 4 years after
Japan launch to see a 60 fps racer? Do we have to wait until the DC is in
its last year of life to see this great racer? Man you guys are a patient
bunch.
My point (again) is that the DC is not powerful enought to do a great "GT"
type racer at 60fps. "Silly" racers like Hydrothunder and this new 4wd
monster truck thing are not what I meant. I've always been careful to
specify that it is a game like NFSHS---a "real" looking racer with real cars
and lots of good looking AI and more important, great AI behavior. I've
always been careful to qualify this as some clown will always find some
60fps fighting game to argue with. TXR is not what I'm talking about
either---with only one AI. If Sega GT is 60 fps then I'd be wrong for
sure---unless they stick to the old one on-screen AI Ridge Racer gameplay
like in SR2. I doubt (heck I'd even bet) it ain't 60.
Looks like I'm all alone on this one---JMK
Incossee wrote in message <3888c190$1...@news.peakpeak.com>...
>
>John Kitchar wrote in message <86944...@enews4.newsguy.com>...
>
>>6) Until we see such a game running on the DC I'm afraid I'm right.
>>
Incossee
John Kitchar wrote in message <86aij...@enews2.newsguy.com>...
>Let's get back down to earth and look at a few things.
But you still haven't told us if the earth is flat or if it's round...
John Kitchar
NonDeskript wrote in message ...
>On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 07:12:33 +1000, John Kitchar wrote:
>
>
>
Let's bet. I say Sega GT won't be 60 fps. Let's bet the game---if it's a
solid 60, I'll buy it for you. If not, you buy it for me. Sound like fun?
>
>Actually, no you haven't "always been careful to specify" anything. IN
>FACT, as you can tell by looking at the subject of this thread it was
>started talking about a pure arcade driving game. You're backpedalling.
>And NFSHS is hardly a "GT" type racer. Its a step between arcade racers
>and GT games, but it most certainly does not feature the realism of Gran
>Turismo.
>
Please go back and read my first post---then come back to me. I forgive you.
I've made many previous post abouts this subject also---I was referring to
them too. Anyway, the subject line has little to do with the point I was
making and in fact, has little to do with what you are saying at the moment
too. So say good-bye to that point. Man are you digging deep on this one.
I meant that NFSHS has a "real" look about it like GT---of course it plays
differently. You are trying to steer this argument in a different direction.
Let me straighten us back out. The point is that the DC IMO, could not do
either a GT or NFSHS type racer at 60fps.
>> I've
>> always been careful to qualify this as some clown will always find some
>> 60fps fighting game to argue with. TXR is not what I'm talking about
>> either---with only one AI. If Sega GT is 60 fps then I'd be wrong for
>> sure---unless they stick to the old one on-screen AI Ridge Racer gameplay
>> like in SR2. I doubt (heck I'd even bet) it ain't 60.
>
>Uh huh. And you base this on what exactly? Nothing? Thanks for
>clarifying.
I base it on previous games and what I see---not on hope and wishful
thinking. 60fps Sega GT? You are dreaming.
>
>> Looks like I'm all alone on this one---JMK
>
>That should probably tell you something...
>
Since nobody agrees with me, I must be wrong. So just for fun and a little
profit, lets bet on Sega GT's framerate. You can't lose as everyone agrees
with you, right? Still here? Hello?
JMK
>-David
John Kitchar
of one but I'll stand firm (and alone it seems) with my opinion. The DC
could not do a GT or NFSHS multiple AI type car racing game at 60 fps. No
"funny" earth is flat/round stuff here---just that simple statement.
We'll just wait and see I guess and like I said before, I hope I'm wrong. I
would like to lose this argument but IMO, I'm right on this one. Time will
tell.
JMK
Incossee wrote in message <3889...@news.peakpeak.com>...
NonDeskript
> I need a catchy one-liner to win this argument it seems.
I think the problem is more that you fail to offer a serious rebuttle to
any of the people that disagree with you. So far the best you've been
able to say is "MSR can't do it, so no game can" which is ludicrous to
any rational person. We are still far to early in the lifecycle of the DC
to be placing such limitations on it.
> Nope, can't think of one but I'll stand firm (and alone it seems) with
> my opinion. The DC could not do a GT or NFSHS multiple AI type car
> racing game at 60 fps. No "funny" earth is flat/round stuff here---just
> that simple statement.
The reason you're alone couldn't be the fact that there is nothing to
back that statement up is there? Naw...
> We'll just wait and see I guess and like I said before, I hope I'm
> wrong. I would like to lose this argument but IMO, I'm right on this
> one. Time will tell.
Hopefully, you will decisively lose this argument when Sega GT is
released ;) My fingers are crossed.
--
-David
John Kitchar
NonDeskript wrote in message ...
>
>Hopefully, you will decisively lose this argument when Sega GT is
>released ;) My fingers are crossed.
>
>--
>-David
Mine too actually. I'm on your side you know and I'd love to eat my words on
this one. But even if it's *only* 30fps I won't mind---as long as the
gamplay and AI is there. It sure looks nice in the screenshots. I'll buy it
without even reading the reviews. BUT, I have to end this with the opinion
that it won't be running at 60 fps. You know I had to throw that in there.
Later, JMK
Takeo Shimizu
those games were released within three month of dc life cycle. yet, he
claims like they are not a first gen. racers. the point is he is a psx boy
who just can't stop loving sony psx machine. that is all. nothing to argue
over. btw, Tekken 3 for psx is not running at 60fps. if anyone think it's
runing at 60fps, their opinion toward fps means nothing. period.
Terrry
TakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizu
"A clean room is a happy room..."
Takeo Shimizu
On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, NonDeskript wrote:
> John Kitchar wrote:
> > I need a catchy one-liner to win this argument it seems.
>
> I think the problem is more that you fail to offer a serious rebuttle to
> any of the people that disagree with you. So far the best you've been
> able to say is "MSR can't do it, so no game can" which is ludicrous to
> any rational person. We are still far to early in the lifecycle of the DC
> to be placing such limitations on it.
>
> > Nope, can't think of one but I'll stand firm (and alone it seems) with
> > my opinion. The DC could not do a GT or NFSHS multiple AI type car
> > racing game at 60 fps. No "funny" earth is flat/round stuff here---just
> > that simple statement.
>
> The reason you're alone couldn't be the fact that there is nothing to
> back that statement up is there? Naw...
>
> > We'll just wait and see I guess and like I said before, I hope I'm
> > wrong. I would like to lose this argument but IMO, I'm right on this
> > one. Time will tell.
>
Darien Allen
<shim...@river.it.gvsu.edu> we were graced with this statement:
>he listed a lot of first generation racers for dc to for the argument.
>those games were released within three month of dc life cycle. yet, he
>claims like they are not a first gen. racers. the point is he is a psx boy
>who just can't stop loving sony psx machine. that is all. nothing to argue
>over. btw, Tekken 3 for psx is not running at 60fps. if anyone think it's
>runing at 60fps, their opinion toward fps means nothing. period.
Where did he claim this and who mentioned Tekken?
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
Scott X
consoles that you are drawing upon, and that is telling you that the first
year of games is all a console will ever do? *If* all of the racing games
on the DC were struggling to make 30fps, like on the PSX, then I would agree
that 60fps is too much to ask.
However, we have TXR, that runs at 60fps the whole time, with
comparativly detailed cars, extremely detailed tracks, lots of traffic and
the best AI I have ever seen in a racing game, regardless of it only being
one car at a time, and odd ball slowdown that rears its ugly head from time
to time. This game was made almost a year ago.
Then we have Sega Rally 2, which holds 60fps part of the time, or with a
code that takes off all special effects and roadside detail all of the time.
It is a port from a Model 2 step 2 machine, a machine that cost a lot more
than a freakin DC, from what I hear it was up there in the tens of thousands
or more. It was also ported on an old shoddy version of the WinCE dev kit,
a version I believe was not used for any other game. Seeing as though games
like Slave Zero run at a far worse framerate and was ported on a presumably
newer WinCE dev kit, I'd say that SR2 is a heck of a good port job, but
hardly indicitave of what the system can do.
Also, there's that silly little entire_history_of_gaming to prove to
even the most casual onlooker that first gen games, or even first year games
on any console are hardly indicitive of what the system can do, and should
be used only as a benchmark minimum for future games.
My definition of second gen is a game that started being developed after
the first release games were published, and by a company that has already
made at least one game on the system. This does not include ports of any
kind, except NAOMI of course which I consider the same as DC, and games made
on the NAOMI should fall into the same generation of DC games that were made
and released at the same time. Then there's also those games that were made
largely on an older, less functional dev kit, such as all of the games that
we have played so far. Any games made entirely, not partially, on the new
dev kits, both Sega OS and WinCE, *will_have* greater performance than the
current line-up of titles.
Considering your insistance that the current line-up is the limit of
what the DC can do, based on a notion that 3rd parties are competant enough
to max out a system the first time they make a game for the system, a notion
that is completly disproven by the Saturn, if the first run games on every
system to date don't prove it to you, I sincerely doubt that you have looked
into the development of any of these games. How long did the company work
on the development/port, how many people were on the team, how much
resources were used in the project, what dev kit revision was used for what
percentage of the project. I doubt you know any of these for any game you
have named, because you don't even have a grasp of gaming history, which
disproves your point anyway.
"John Kitchar" <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote in message
news:86bs1...@enews3.newsguy.com...
|
| NonDeskript wrote in message ...
|
| >
| >Hopefully, you will decisively lose this argument when Sega GT is
| >released ;) My fingers are crossed.
| >
| >--
| >-David
|
Incossee
John Kitchar wrote in message <86bls...@enews3.newsguy.com>...
>I need a catchy one-liner to win this argument it seems.
Actually John, you'd need a valid argument, and to have not made several
ridiculous statements to win this argument. No one takes you seriously
after some of the things you've said, and your failure to ignore common
sense, historical evidence, and the opinions of every rational person on
this news group that suggest that you have no idea what you're talking
about.
>Nope, can't think
>of one but I'll stand firm (and alone it seems) with my opinion. The DC
>could not do a GT or NFSHS multiple AI type car racing game at 60 fps. No
>"funny" earth is flat/round stuff here---just that simple statement.
Well at least it seems you've back-pedalled here. I was originally
disagreeing with some of your more enlightened statements like:
"it just seems like the hardware is being pushed just to hit 30fps."
"simple games outrun the system"
"we get pop-up, 10fps, stuttering loads, etc"
"V8's textures draw/pop-up 30 feet in front of your car."
"I believe the programmers tried everything they could think of to eliminate
these problems."
"the _majority of the games_ will have framerate problems---like we have
now. Say a ratio of 20 slow games to one smooth."
The ratio of games with framerate problems to those without is *nothing*
like 20 to 1 even NOW. (By my calculations, that means that there would be
only either 2 or 3 games for DC without framerate problems today...) You're
seriously deranged to make and defend such statements...
>We'll just wait and see I guess and like I said before, I hope I'm wrong. I
>would like to lose this argument but IMO, I'm right on this one. Time will
>tell.
How is it that you can repeatedly insist "I'm right," when you are talking
about the future. Until it is *actually* the future you can't possibly
decree "I'm right." Nevermind that you make predictions that are less
likely than seeing a Browns/Saints Superbowl. Game quality gets *better*
not worse--almost always a *lot* better. Soul Calibur only displays half of
the polys per second than what even the conservative in-game estimates for
the DC's limits are. But you know better, you're "right" because you have
this amazing ability to know that game developers have pushed the DC to its
limits with the sloppiest 1st gen games. We're just all blind Sega
devotees, who can't see clearly like you...
I'm still on pins and needles to find out if the earth is flat.
>JMK
Incossee
Incossee wrote in message <388a...@news.peakpeak.com>...
>No one takes you seriously
>after some of the things you've said, and your failure to ignore common
>sense,
That should read "failure to recognize."
Darien Allen
<Weap...@ix.Yermeatnetcom.com> we were graced with this statement:
> However, we have TXR, that runs at 60fps the whole time, with
>comparativly detailed cars, extremely detailed tracks, lots of traffic and
>the best AI I have ever seen in a racing game, regardless of it only being
>one car at a time, and odd ball slowdown that rears its ugly head from time
>to time. This game was made almost a year ago.
AI for one car vs. seperate AI routines for a bunch of competitive
races *IS* a big difference. If almost everyone here has seen the
slowdown in TXR how does that make it oddball?
> Then we have Sega Rally 2, which holds 60fps part of the time, or with a
>code that takes off all special effects and roadside detail all of the time.
>It is a port from a Model 2 step 2 machine, a machine that cost a lot more
>than a freakin DC, from what I hear it was up there in the tens of thousands
>or more. It was also ported on an old shoddy version of the WinCE dev kit,
>a version I believe was not used for any other game. Seeing as though games
>like Slave Zero run at a far worse framerate and was ported on a presumably
>newer WinCE dev kit, I'd say that SR2 is a heck of a good port job, but
>hardly indicitave of what the system can do.
It also has little to no AI.
Now for the record I don't agree with John...actually I don't agree
with either side...just thought I'd stick my nose in...as usual... ;)
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
Scott X
bunch of racers? I want to play it, that would be awesome. My point was
that TXR has really advanced AI, so just because it is one car you're racing
doesn't necessarily mean it was not pushing the system with the AI and
graphics together. I said oddball as in wierd, not rare. I don't
understand what causes the slowdown in this game, it seems to happen
sometimes when you're racing and their are two AI cars on the screen, but
that doesn't make any sense, and neither does any of the other times, it's
just random, and usually doesn't involve anything graphically impressive,
such as explosions or large scenes.
| AI for one car vs. seperate AI routines for a bunch of competitive
| races *IS* a big difference. If almost everyone here has seen the
| slowdown in TXR how does that make it oddball?
| It also has little to no AI.
Nope, it doesn't. For the record, I'd like to say that I would be very
impressed with a game with TXR's or SR2's graphics and complex individual AI
for each of the 5-20 cars on the track at one time. 30fps or 60fps wouldn't
matter to me in that case, especially on the DC. I honestly don't think
that any system we will have in this generation of consoles will be able to
do that, especially not at 60fps. I'd love to be wrong though, and I'd
especially like to see that kind of complex and numurous AI in a fast pased
Tenchu style game. I don't think that racers like GT, Sega Rally, Ridge
Racer or others really need a track full of racers as complex as those in
TXR. Just having them drive like they aren't on rails is enough for me.
anders0n
me.
Crazy taxi runs at 60 frames, go to the arcade and see for yourself. Nothing on
the PC (that is quicktime movies) runs at aconstant frame rate, plus i doubt if
quicktime playsback at 60 or records data at 60 frames (but i could be wrong)...
John Kitchar wrote:
> I HIGHLY doubt we'll see any great car racer running at 60fps on the DC.
> This means multiple AI, daytime tracks, great graphics, etc. Sorry, I like
> my DC but I don't think it could do it----that's my opinion/prediction.
>
> The "first gen" game excuse is getting a bit old for me---so can that idea
> and give me facts if you want to argue with me.
>
> MSR=30 fps if lucky. I wonder why it's delayed...
> SegaGT=who knows, but I bet it ain't 60fps.
>
> JMK
>
> MWatcher wrote in message
> >Did anyone check out the quicktime movies at dc.ign.com? It seems that the
> >game has a slower framerate than the arcade version...or are these movies
> >just showing pre-alphas? I was kinda disappointed with the 'imperfect'
> Sega
> >Rally 2...so I'm not too crazy about an 'imperfect' Crazy Taxi.
> >
> >MWatcher
> >
> >
John Kitchar
Scott X wrote in message <86dq9l$ng9$1...@nntp6.atl.mindspring.net>...
> Nope, it doesn't. For the record, I'd like to say that I would be very
>impressed with a game with TXR's or SR2's graphics and complex individual
AI
>for each of the 5-20 cars on the track at one time. 30fps or 60fps
wouldn't
>matter to me in that case, especially on the DC. I honestly don't think
>that any system we will have in this generation of consoles will be able to
>do that, especially not at 60fps.
Yes---now we are starting to agree on something. It is this type of racer
that I feel could not be done on the DC at 60fps---you think that no system
in this gen could do it huh? You could be right.
JMK
MrSuperarm
Scott X
it in this way. The mass market gamers would flock to a better looking
racer long before they would to a hard racer with intelligent AI that looks
the same as racers on other systems.
"John Kitchar" <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote in message
news:86e43...@enews4.newsguy.com...
Scott X
the code can be optimized as well and the DC wouldn't have a problem with
12-15 TXR quality AI cars in a game. Care to explain to me exacty how AI
works and why the DC can't calculate this level of AI and run DC quality
graphics at 60fps? Because, for me, its just a matter of whether or not a
developer does it. I still think that the Genesis could have given some
truly advanced gameplay, but instead we got last run games with characters
made up of ballz. That was neat. :(
John Kitchar
Incossee wrote in message <388a...@news.peakpeak.com>...
>Well at least it seems you've back-pedalled here. I was originally
>disagreeing with some of your more enlightened statements like:
>
>"it just seems like the hardware is being pushed just to hit 30fps."
>
To me, it looks like it. Monaco feels like the hardware is being pushed just
for 30fps. Revolt the same. Hydrothunder the same. I hear that new F1 game
slows down too. I could list more games also. I detect frames in almost
every racing game I play on the DC so IMO, 30fps is pushing the system for
these games. When I play a solid 30fps game like RRT4 or Speed Devils on the
other hand, I don't detect frames. So I must conclude that for whatever
reason(s) (sloppy programming, bad ports, whatever) these racers push the DC
to far. So I ask myself, would it be possible for the DC to do an _even more
complex_ GT type racing game with multiple AI at a _higher 60fps?_ IMO, no.
>"simple games outrun the system"
>
The games listed above are what I would call pretty simple---what would you
call them?
>"we get pop-up, 10fps, stuttering loads, etc"
Yes we do. In SR2, that big rock pops-up right in front of you. In V8,
weapons and hills pop-up all over the place. Great game BTW. Shadowman and
Monaco stutter and I can almost count the frames in Monaco at the start
line. So I guessed 10 fps---it could be even less IMO, especially on the
Monaco track with the big turn. With several AI cars in that turn, the game
turns into a slow motion slide-show. You don't want to hear any of this, do
you?
>
>"V8's textures draw/pop-up 30 feet in front of your car."
Well sorry, they do. Let me get pin-point specific. Go to the old Utah or
old Cal. level and drive around. The textures on the hills look like they
draw several car lengths ahead---I said 30 feet as a guess. Not an obsurd
guess at all IMO. Just look for yourself. BTW, while you are there buzzing
around, notice the huge framerate drop in the apple trees. V8 is one of my
favorite games but hey, it pushes the DC too far as you can see. Let me
re-state that: The DC is unable to run _this_ game at a solid framerate and
the pop-up and texture draw is very noticable.
>
>"I believe the programmers tried everything they could think of to
eliminate
>these problems."
I believe the guys who "improved" USA Monaco added too much (to the
Japanese version) for the USA game---they IMO, did everything they could to
keep the game stable while adding things like moving clouds and increasing
the details in the distant cities. They went a bit too far however as the DC
is unable to run _that_ game at a solid 30 fps. Not even close.
>
>"the _majority of the games_ will have framerate problems---like we have
>now. Say a ratio of 20 slow games to one smooth."
>
>
I went too far on this one yes but the ratio of slow to smooth games isn't
what I expected from a next gen system. I expected 60 fps racers before
launch though and I am a bit surprised at the actual outcome(s). I expected
games like SR2 to be a solid 60 fps before the Japan launch.
>How is it that you can repeatedly insist "I'm right," when you are talking
>about the future. Until it is *actually* the future you can't possibly
>decree "I'm right.
With only two possibilities, one of us is right. I never "insisted" but I do
think I'm right and you are wrong.
This really bugs you---I can tell. Why can't someone be right about the
future? You never guess about the future?
JMK
Darien Allen
(MrSuperarm) we were graced with this statement:
>Who gives a shit how many FPS a game has? Just enjoy the fucking game!
So much for the intelligent discussion.......
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
Incossee
John Kitchar wrote in message <86e8f...@enews4.newsguy.com>...
>
>
>
>Incossee wrote in message <388a...@news.peakpeak.com>...
>>Well at least it seems you've back-pedalled here. I was originally
>>disagreeing with some of your more enlightened statements like:
>>
>>"it just seems like the hardware is being pushed just to hit 30fps."
>>
>
>To me, it looks like it. Monaco feels like the hardware is being pushed
just
>for 30fps. Revolt the same. Hydrothunder the same. I hear that new F1 game
>slows down too. I could list more games also. I detect frames in almost
>every racing game I play on the DC so IMO, 30fps is pushing the system for
>these games. When I play a solid 30fps game like RRT4 or Speed Devils on
the
>other hand, I don't detect frames. So I must conclude that for whatever
>reason(s) (sloppy programming, bad ports, whatever) these racers push the
DC
>to far. So I ask myself, would it be possible for the DC to do an _even
more
>complex_ GT type racing game with multiple AI at a _higher 60fps?_ IMO, no.
First of all, you're jumping from games pushing DC to the limit with 30 fps,
to it can't do such and such and such and such a 60 fps racer. I never
specifically commented about this very specific hypothetical racing you keep
bringing up now.
Second, AGAIN, for the millionth time, the problem with your logic is that
you are basing all of your assumptions on what the DC is capable of on 1ST
GENERATION games. You have just stated that you think Monaco GP, Hydro
Thunder, and Re-Volt (which was a PC port done by a team of something like 1
person in 2 months) have already maxed out the DC. These games don't show
you *anything* about the DC's limits. They show you what 1st generation
software looks like, not what 2nd and 3rd generation will look like.
Third, you seriously underestimate the value of time, experience, and good
programming. Problematic programming can make a game run like a dog on a
P3-700 w/512 MB RAM (play Ultima 9 if you want to see for yourself.) It's
like you are expecting dev. kits to have telepathic hook-ups that instantly
convert ideas into a well-programmed game. We ain't there yet. Until then,
programmers are still going to have to put in work and quality to produce
higher calibur games. I've already witnessed some dramatic improvements in
graphical quality for the DC with games like Shenmue and Code Veronica,
which is evidence enough that we will see much better looking games as time
progresses. That includes racers too. My guess is Sega GT will be a
somewhat rushed product, but there will probably be a Sega GT 2, which if I
had to predict, will live up to every one of those conditions you set out
for your racing game. But that's a ways down the road.
>
>>"simple games outrun the system"
>>
>The games listed above are what I would call pretty simple---what would you
>call them?
Again, you suggest the problem lies with the system. I've seen more complex
games run better, which is pretty strong evidence that it's not the
limitations of the system, but the limitations of early/rushed software. If
you've got a PSX and access to Ridge Racer and Ridge Racer Type 4, I really
think you should put them in and compare. You'd be amazed at how far that
system has come, with RR4 outdoing RR in frame rate, polygon count,
textures, lighting, effects, detail, AI, and everything else. What you're
saying is exactly the same as saying, since Ridge Racer has pop up, the PSX
is clearly pushed to its limits to make that game. To do better would be a
fluke of miraculous programming skill. Well, I'm basically saying, you're
full of it, to make such a statement....
>>"we get pop-up, 10fps, stuttering loads, etc"
>
>Yes we do. In SR2, that big rock pops-up right in front of you. In V8,
>weapons and hills pop-up all over the place. Great game BTW. Shadowman and
>Monaco stutter and I can almost count the frames in Monaco at the start
>line. So I guessed 10 fps---it could be even less IMO, especially on the
>Monaco track with the big turn. With several AI cars in that turn, the game
>turns into a slow motion slide-show. You don't want to hear any of this, do
>you?
Actually, it's just that these problems are not at all typical of DC games.
The way you say it, and the point you're making is that these are common
problems, that are a result of hardware limitations. These are not problems
that most DC games suffer from, and there's plenty of evidence to show that
they can be avoided. In other words they represent problems in the software
not the hardware.
>>
>>"V8's textures draw/pop-up 30 feet in front of your car."
>
>Well sorry, they do
Um, NO, sorry, I've played the game a good 30-40 hours and the pop-up that
appears is nothing like 2 car lengths in front of you--the game would be
totally unplayable if this was true. Again, that's just a ridiculous bit of
exaggeration. When you exaggerate like that, it's a sign of someone making
things up so their argument sounds more valid. Unfortunately it backfired,
since I know it's absolutely false. But I suppose it might work in trying
to convince anyone out there who hasn't played the game, and doesn't
understand that 1st generation software doesn't take advantage of a system's
potential.
>>How is it that you can repeatedly insist "I'm right," when you are talking
>>about the future. Until it is *actually* the future you can't possibly
>>decree "I'm right.
>
>With only two possibilities, one of us is right. I never "insisted" but I
do
>think I'm right and you are wrong.
>This really bugs you---I can tell. Why can't someone be right about the
>future? You never guess about the future?
Umm, no you miss the point. People can be right about the future, but
people can't *know* they're right about those predictions, until they come
true or they don't. And again, the problem with your predictions is that
they defy common sense, historical evidence, technical specifications of
conservative limits to hardware, current upper-eschelon games, and
overwhelming mass consensus. It's abundantly clear that if you were to wear
the mantle of right or wrong, you'd be wrong. What "bugs" me is totally
ignorant statements made insistantly and repeatedly.
Scott X
Joe Ottoson
<darienNO...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Now at the time of 23 Jan 2000 06:26:58 GMT, mrsup...@aol.com
> (MrSuperarm) we were graced with this statement:
>
> >Who gives a shit how many FPS a game has? Just enjoy the fucking game!
>
> So much for the intelligent discussion.......
Sometimes stating the bleeding obvious works..... ;)
Darien Allen
<aj...@dim.com> we were graced with this statement:
Yeah but if we didn't argue over every little thing...what other
reason would I have to even BE here? ;)
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
NonDeskript
>
>
>
> Incossee wrote in message <388a...@news.peakpeak.com>...
> >Well at least it seems you've back-pedalled here. I was originally
> >disagreeing with some of your more enlightened statements like:
> >
> >"it just seems like the hardware is being pushed just to hit 30fps."
> >
>
> To me, it looks like it. Monaco feels like the hardware is being pushed just
> for 30fps. Revolt the same. Hydrothunder the same. I hear that new F1 game
> slows down too. I could list more games also. I detect frames in almost
> every racing game I play on the DC so IMO, 30fps is pushing the system for
> these games. When I play a solid 30fps game like RRT4 or Speed Devils on the
> other hand, I don't detect frames. So I must conclude that for whatever
> reason(s) (sloppy programming, bad ports, whatever) these racers push the DC
> to far. So I ask myself, would it be possible for the DC to do an _even more
> complex_ GT type racing game with multiple AI at a _higher 60fps?_ IMO, no.
What does the hardware look like when its being pushed? Does it shake or
something? Make funny noises? Emit smoke?
As for using the current crop of games to establish what the hardware is
and is not capable of, even you say that the problems with these games
are "sloppy programming, bad ports, whatever" so how can they be an
example of the power of the system?
> >"simple games outrun the system"
> >
> The games listed above are what I would call pretty simple---what would you
> call them?
Here's something to think about. 7th cross has extreme slowdown on the
Options menu. I mean SERIOUS slowdown. Anyone who's played it can attest
to this. And all thats on the screen is gradient colored text. Does this
mean that the DC is incapable of displaying text with gradient coloring?
> >"V8's textures draw/pop-up 30 feet in front of your car."
>
> V8 is one of my
> favorite games but hey, it pushes the DC too far as you can see. Let me
> re-state that: The DC is unable to run _this_ game at a solid framerate and
> the pop-up and texture draw is very noticable.
And this couldn't be the fault of the programmers could it? Naw...
> > "I believe the programmers tried everything they could think of to
> > eliminate these problems."
>
> I believe the guys who "improved" USA Monaco added too much (to the
> Japanese version) for the USA game---they IMO, did everything they could to
> keep the game stable while adding things like moving clouds and increasing
> the details in the distant cities. They went a bit too far however as the DC
> is unable to run _that_ game at a solid 30 fps. Not even close.
Its a first gen game. They may have done "everything they could think of"
but that is in no way everything that CAN be done. So, again, it in no
way is evidence of what the DC is capable of doing.
> >"the _majority of the games_ will have framerate problems---like we have
> >now. Say a ratio of 20 slow games to one smooth."
>
> I went too far on this one yes but the ratio of slow to smooth games isn't
> what I expected from a next gen system. I expected 60 fps racers before
> launch though and I am a bit surprised at the actual outcome(s). I expected
> games like SR2 to be a solid 60 fps before the Japan launch.
Well, you placed your expectations too high then. Plain and simple. Show
me the system that didn't have slowdown present in many first gen games.
Yes the system has more power than a PSX, but at the same time the
programmers are incorporating more into it than a PSX game (at least
graphically) without the knowledge of how to optimize it that they had
with the PSX. So however much technology improves, it doesn't eliminate
slowdown because it is basically a programming problem, not a hardware
problem.
> >How is it that you can repeatedly insist "I'm right," when you are talking
> >about the future. Until it is *actually* the future you can't possibly
> >decree "I'm right.
>
> With only two possibilities, one of us is right. I never "insisted" but I do
> think I'm right and you are wrong.
> This really bugs you---I can tell. Why can't someone be right about the
> future? You never guess about the future?
I think the problem is that you repeatedly assert that you are right
while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.
--
-David
John Kitchar
>>Incossee wrote in message <388a...@news.peakpeak.com>...
>First of all, you're jumping from games pushing DC to the limit with 30
fps,
>to it can't do such and such and such and such a 60 fps racer. I never
>specifically commented about this very specific hypothetical racing you
keep
>bringing up now.
>
Now? Go back and read my very first post---I've been referring to this type
of racer from the very beginning---even in previous posts. Then people asked
ME what I based my opinionon . Then I started citing present DC games that
made me feel the way I do.
>progresses. That includes racers too. My guess is Sega GT will be a
>somewhat rushed product, but there will probably be a Sega GT 2, which if I
>had to predict, will live up to every one of those conditions you set out
>for your racing game. But that's a ways down the road.
>
So even you feel that we will wait until Sega GT2 until we *maybe* see a
60fps racer like this. Should I now grill you on how or what you base your
opinion on? COULD IT BE THE PRESENT GAMES and their performance on the
system? Of course. Honestly, would you have predicted this before the launch
of the Japanese DC? This is what, 3-4 years after Jap DC launch until we see
(according to you) the first GT type multiple AI racer running at 60fps?
Sounds like you agree with me and you can't get yourself to admit it. Pride?
Who's "full of it" here?
>>>
>>>"V8's textures draw/pop-up 30 feet in front of your car."
>>
>>Well sorry, they do
>
>Um, NO, sorry, I've played the game a good 30-40 hours and the pop-up that
>appears is nothing like 2 car lengths in front of you--the game would be
>totally unplayable if this was true. Again, that's just a ridiculous bit
of
I own the game and play it almost every night since I got it---it is at the
moment my favorite DC game to date. But, the _textures_ pop-in very very
close---much closer than I (and you I bet) expected or like to see. What
about you? In your opinion, how would you rate the draw/pop-up in the game?
Give me a rating from one to ten on pop-up and texture draw distance. 8? 7?
6? I'm talking about the textures on the hills that line the roadsides. The
hills themselves pop-up badly too BTW, but I did not mean 30 feet ahead. The
textures (grass, rocks, etc.) on the hills pop-in or draw pretty damn
close---OK maybe not "30 feet" but just ahead half way up the turn YOU KNOW.
I did not get out my tape measure. 30 feet sounded like a reasonable
distance for textures drawing several car lengths ahead. What's your point
anyway? You are pleased with this draw distance or what exactly? I really
can't believe you when you jump on me for saying this about the game when
you can plainly see the textures draw right out in front of your car. But
no, you want to measure it exactly and call me on it---it's insignificant
and pointless.
JMK
Scott X
type
| of racer from the very beginning---even in previous posts. Then people
asked
| ME what I based my opinionon . Then I started citing present DC games that
| made me feel the way I do.
Yup, you were, but you can hardly blame him, you've been doing nothing
but listening to yourself talk for the entire length of this thread, and you
haven't even answered one of my, or his, questions that might have given
some credibility to your argument. As it stands, your just another clown
making outrageous claims about how the DC can't do something.
| So even you feel that we will wait until Sega GT2 until we *maybe* see a
| 60fps racer like this. Should I now grill you on how or what you base your
| opinion on? COULD IT BE THE PRESENT GAMES and their performance on the
| system? Of course. Honestly, would you have predicted this before the
launch
| of the Japanese DC? This is what, 3-4 years after Jap DC launch until we
see
| (according to you) the first GT type multiple AI racer running at 60fps?
| Sounds like you agree with me and you can't get yourself to admit it.
Pride?
| Who's "full of it" here?
It's entirely up to the developer, I honestly don't think most people
care about the framerate. I just had a friend over last night, who loves
games but she doesn't really have much technical knowledge about them, and I
asked her to watch Sega Rally 2 with me and tell me if she noticed the
animation getting choppy, after three tracks she said she didn't notice
anything at all. The same went for Monaco GP, while I could see the spots
where the framerate dropped down, she couldn't. I'd be willing to bet that
if Sega GT does come out at 60fps people will still argue about whether or
not it is at 60fps, because a lot of people can't tell the difference.
| I own the game and play it almost every night since I got it---it is at
the
| moment my favorite DC game to date. But, the _textures_ pop-in very very
| close---much closer than I (and you I bet) expected or like to see. What
| about you? In your opinion, how would you rate the draw/pop-up in the
game?
| Give me a rating from one to ten on pop-up and texture draw distance. 8?
7?
| 6? I'm talking about the textures on the hills that line the roadsides.
The
| hills themselves pop-up badly too BTW, but I did not mean 30 feet ahead.
The
| textures (grass, rocks, etc.) on the hills pop-in or draw pretty damn
| close---OK maybe not "30 feet" but just ahead half way up the turn YOU
KNOW.
| I did not get out my tape measure. 30 feet sounded like a reasonable
| distance for textures drawing several car lengths ahead. What's your point
| anyway? You are pleased with this draw distance or what exactly? I really
| can't believe you when you jump on me for saying this about the game when
| you can plainly see the textures draw right out in front of your car. But
| no, you want to measure it exactly and call me on it---it's insignificant
| and pointless.
The texture draw in is about midway to the horizon, and the pop-up is
further out, both are outrageously bad for a DC game. If you think for a
second that this kind of thing is a limitation of the system you're simply
fooling yourself. This same "technique" was used on the PS, because that
system can't handle the game, and they just didn't take it out for the DC
version. Along with the bad colision detection and multiple per level
glitches, I suppose these are a limitation of the hardware too? Have you
not considered the possibility that maybe some of these developers just
suck? How many years have you played video games? Obviously not very many,
because your assumptions are all have baked. You don't take into account
developer competance, track record, development time, development kit
version (which will effect available system resouces and limit quality if it
is one of the older kits), generations of games, or anything else that has
been suggested to you here in this group.
If you want proof that the DC can display graphics better than V8:SO, if
every game on the system doesn't prove it to you, then look no farther than
Sonic Adventure. Here is a game that started out for the Saturn, and then
at some early point in its development, it was decided to be for the next
system, and the development continued even though the hardware wasn't
finalized until about a month before the Japanese launch. In this game we
have occasional slowdown, and occasional pop-up, but the vast majority of
the game has neither, and other than a bad mip-map filtering method, the
textures are always drawn on the visible polygons. This game also runs
faster than any game I've seen, oh but that's just a coincidence isn't it?
The bad games on the system are what define its power, riiiiight.
You also, apparently, don't know anything about AI either, since you
didn't answer my question about why the DC can't do it efficiently. Do you
even know the tech specs for the DC? Do you know how much of the CPU's
resources are used up in rendering and how much is free after gameplay for
AI? Furthermore, do you know which multiplier was used for each of these
games you have named? Was it the 32bit ones, the 64bit, or the much
debated 4X 128bit? You don't know, and neither does any of us, because that
kind of tweaking is up to the developers. If they decide not to optimize
the chips, then the system will not perform to its max, or in the case of
the current line up, even to 1/2 of its ability. Your using V8:SO as an
example of the DC's limitations completly ruins any shaky credibility you
might have had.
I've read all of this and more, have you? I've also written an
extensive article based on everything I have read, if you would like I can
e-mail it to you, just remove "yermeat" from my e-mail address and let me
know. Enjoy...
Spec list
http://dreamcast.ign.com/hardware/59.html
PowerVR Description
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/reviews/video/neon250/4.shtml
http://pvr.gamestats.com/bobsrant/PVR250.shtml
http://www.powervr.com/Technologies/Definition.htm
Programming in WinCE DX7
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/techart/hiperflegal.htm
Online Intentions and capability
http://dreamcast.ign.com/news/12070.html
http://dreamcast.ign.com/news/12062.html
http://www.gamefan.com/hotinfo.asp?s=3872&rs=0
http://www.booyaka.com/
DC Vs PC
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/dcvspc1/
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/console/dreamcast/
Sure, not a credible source, but if he thinks so... ( TXR & GT2000 )
http://www.gamefan.com/repre.asp?g=1218&t=r
Game pics
http://www.geocities.com/weaponx013/FightingComparison.html
Developer List
http://www.sega-dreams.com/software/developers/list.html
3MPPS
http://dreamcast.ign.com/previews/11026.html
Incossee
John Kitchar wrote in message <86gs8...@enews3.newsguy.com>...
>So even you feel that we will wait until Sega GT2 until we *maybe* see a
>60fps racer like this. Should I now grill you on how or what you base your
>opinion on? COULD IT BE THE PRESENT GAMES and their performance on the
>system? Of course. Honestly, would you have predicted this before the
launch
>of the Japanese DC? This is what, 3-4 years after Jap DC launch until we
see
>(according to you) the first GT type multiple AI racer running at 60fps?
>Sounds like you agree with me and you can't get yourself to admit it.
Pride?
That's just a guess, and a guess based on another guess that Sega is going
to rush Sega GT. I think Sega GT is going to be a rushed effort to offer a
game that competes with the GT games, and will therefore not be one of
Sega's most technically impressive games, but perhaps that's just being
pessimistic. I make no presumption as to when we will see the type of racer
you speak of, just the presumption that the DC is capable of it. There's a
good chance someone else will make a different racer before then that
surpasses it. Frankly, I've played too many racers lately and I'm looking
forward to the 60 fps Crazy Taxi, but I guess that doesn't count in your
book, despite the fact that it allows you to drive anywhere in the city and
is not confined to a narrow circular track. You're the expert--with your
vast expertise, you've figured out exactly what the DC can do, based on
extensive experience with bottom-barrel 1st generation games.
BTW, maybe you should try Tokyo Xtreme Racer, a first gen 60 fps racer.
Might have a few bugs, but based on playing that, I have no doubts as to the
DC's hardware being up to the task of handling a great looking, multiple AI
60 fps racer (how does TXR fall short by your standards anyway?) The person
with a serious pride problem here is you. You make assinine statements,
then defend them to the hilt. I have no loyalty to Sega, and a perfect
willingness to admit if I make a mistake. You give yourself *way* too much
credit if you think I agree with you, or that pride prevents me from
conceding that you're anything but 100% dead wrong, or that anything you've
said rings up as more than pure feeble-minded ignorance.
For the truly thick-headed, I'll put it yet another way--the DC, according
to experts, can run a game, with effects, AI etc., featuring about1 million
polygons per second. A racer running at 60 fps could display a substantial
16,000-17,000 polygons on screen. Now mind you these aren't Sega's
propaganda numbers, these are what 3rd parties honestly believe can be done
on the hardware--it's possible that in time, they'll figure out a way to get
even more out of the system. Regardless, from a simple objective
standpoint, the DC is fully capable of doing such a game. Heck, the PSX
even has a few 60 fps racers. I've played 'em myself. Clearly, the DC is
capable of it, and clearly it's just your sheer ignorance of mistaking
sloppy/inexperienced 1st gen work for short-comings in DC hardware.
>Who's "full of it" here?
That would be you. Again. As always.
>30 feet sounded like a reasonable distance
Just one more comment. A bus is roughly 30 feet long. At chase view, if
you selected the bus, you wouldn't be able to see the front end of it
with30-feet pop-up. In short, you've got to have absolutely no sense of
distance or were just making up whatever stupidity came to mind, not mindful
that anyone would call you on it. But even if there was pop up at 3 feet
away, it has no relevance at all as to what the DC can handle. Even most
1st generation games don't have this problem, so it has everything to do
with programming (in this case a game running on the engine of an old PSX
game, the game being developed for multiple inferior platforms, code not
being optimized for the system, and 1st effort work by a very small
developer, whose only other product to date was the original V8), and
nothing to do with hardware limitations. V8:SO displays a tiny number of
polys per second relative to what the DC can actually handle, so do most 1st
gen games, particularly the inferior ones you like to point to as evidence.
Darien Allen
<incos...@excite.com> we were graced with this statement:
>BTW, maybe you should try Tokyo Xtreme Racer, a first gen 60 fps racer.
>Might have a few bugs, but based on playing that, I have no doubts as to the
>DC's hardware being up to the task of handling a great looking, multiple AI
>60 fps racer (how does TXR fall short by your standards anyway?) The person
Could I interject again as the neutral party? I think the debate comes
to down 60fps and multiple good AI. We haven't seen that yet.
>standpoint, the DC is fully capable of doing such a game. Heck, the PSX
>even has a few 60 fps racers. I've played 'em myself. Clearly, the DC is
But they either have placeholder AI, or framerate problems.
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
Michael R. Baraniecki
<8fne8s807gn30vh4i...@4ax.com>:
>Now at the time of Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:22:41 GMT, uni...@netcom.com
>(Michael R. Baraniecki) we were graced with this statement:
>
>>We are. :) Look at DOA2 and come back and tell me that the DC couldn't
>>have done Sega Rally 2 at a constant fps, if done with the Sega OS. I
>>know they're different games, but DOA2 just smooshes SR2 in terms of
>>looks so much, that I don't doubt it one bit. We'll start seeing a lot
>>of 60fps racers (or car games), starting with Crazy Taxi. The examples
>>you gave are all cases in which the DC's power wasn't at issue. It was
>>either lazy programming or the crappy Windows CE. They really need to
>>get that new version out.
>
>How do you compare a fighting game to a race game and make that kind
>of assumption?
I did state that I know they're different games, that's why I said that.
Yes they're different types of games, but look at what DOA2 pushes...
tons of polys, constant framerate, beautiful environments, etc. I *know*
it's not a racing game, but if you use an argument like that, you can
also just tell me that "How can I compare Worms to DOA2? They're
different types of games, you can't compare the graphics." That's a dumb
argument, it's plainly obvious that DOA2 pushes the system more than SR
2, and to a much greater extent, Worms, hehe. SR2 barely even had any
freakin' AI, too.
--
-Mike
Michael R. Baraniecki
uni...@netcom.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6470
Videogame MIDIs and Space Ghost sounds galore
Incossee
Darien Allen wrote in message ...
>Now at the time of Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:37:26 GMT, "Incossee"
>
>>BTW, maybe you should try Tokyo Xtreme Racer, a first gen 60 fps racer.
>>Might have a few bugs, but based on playing that, I have no doubts as to
the
>>DC's hardware being up to the task of handling a great looking, multiple
AI
>>60 fps racer (how does TXR fall short by your standards anyway?) The
person
>
LOL... neutral party? Is that what you are? That's pretty funny, Darien...
>I think the debate comes
>to down 60fps and multiple good AI. We haven't seen that yet.
Okay, so only one AI at a time in TXR, and occassional slow down. It's a
first gen game, and certainly not the most technically impressive. The
whole point is that such a game is possible on the DC. Is it your
contention that it would not be possible for the DC to handle a racer at 60
fps and multiple good AI? It should be blantantly obvious that it can be
done, if you know anything about the DC hardware, and recognize even a small
potential for growth beyond what's been done in first generation racers.
>>standpoint, the DC is fully capable of doing such a game. Heck, the PSX
>>even has a few 60 fps racers. I've played 'em myself. Clearly, the DC is
>
>But they either have placeholder AI, or framerate problems.
Yeah, and it's also being done on a system with a small fraction of the
processing and polygon pushing power of the DC. Good AI and framerate fixes
don't require anywhere near the differential in power between the two
systems. Besides, good AI isn't really much of a factor in racing games.
Most of them just use cheezy tactics like attaching tow lines if they get
behind, moving at constant speed, tracking only 1 or 2 cars at a time, and
you know what? It's perfectly fine that it works that way. Not realistic,
but as long as there's a challenge, that's what matters to most people in
the end. Lacking "good" AI is a result of it not being necessary for a
racing game. If the AI presents an acceptable level of challenge, very few
people care if it's done realistically. Because so few people care, it's
not a priority for developers of racing games.
Darien Allen
<incos...@excite.com> we were graced with this statement:
>LOL... neutral party? Is that what you are? That's pretty funny, Darien...
In this particular thread. :)
>whole point is that such a game is possible on the DC. Is it your
>contention that it would not be possible for the DC to handle a racer at 60
>fps and multiple good AI? It should be blantantly obvious that it can be
I don't believe that I contended anything.
>you know what? It's perfectly fine that it works that way. Not realistic,
>but as long as there's a challenge, that's what matters to most people in
>the end. Lacking "good" AI is a result of it not being necessary for a
>racing game. If the AI presents an acceptable level of challenge, very few
>people care if it's done realistically. Because so few people care, it's
>not a priority for developers of racing games.
And that makes it ok?
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
Incossee
Darien Allen wrote in message ...
><incos...@excite.com> we were graced with this statement:
>
>>LOL... neutral party? Is that what you are? That's pretty funny,
Darien...
>
>In this particular thread. :)
I think not... but whatever. BTW, Darien, you have a distinct tendency to
post nothing but negative comments about the DC and DC owners in this group.
I'm curious, have you ever made positive comments about the DC, or ever
corrected someone who posted untrue *negative* remarks about the system?
You do so much of the opposite... you're posting habits do not speak to
neutrality. And do you even own a Dreamcast? If so, which games do you own
and actually like? I know it's a tangent, but I'm actually quite interested
in the answers to those questions.
>I don't believe that I contended anything.
Then why continue to interject on John's behalf?
>>Because so few people care, it's
>>not a priority for developers of racing games.
>
>And that makes it ok?
Yup, it sure does, at least for the majority of people who simply don't care
about realistic AI in their racing games. If it wasn't okay, game devlopers
would have gone to much greater lengths to include it long ago. As it
stands people want lots of cars, lots of well-designed tracks, good control,
multi-player options, good graphics, good challenge, lots of gameplay modes,
and basic everyday fun in their racers. I doubt you'll see any racers
released with "Incredible realistic AI!!!" plastered on the box anytime
soon, because people by and large don't care about that. Realistic AI in
racers is not a selling point. If the market dictates that it is, I'm sure
we'll see more of it, but for now, it doesn't matter to most people.
Enoryt666
>post nothing but negative comments about the DC and DC owners in this group.
No he doesn't.
>I'm curious, have you ever made positive comments about the DC
There are no positive comments.
---------------------
"If she says, 'It's not you, it's me,' then it is you and you've failed!"
"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing..."
"All I do know is that [God's] a force stronger than Mom and Dad put together
and you owe Him big."
Incossee
Enoryt666 wrote in message <20000125014856...@ng-cr1.aol.com>...
>>TW, Darien, you have a distinct tendency to
>>post nothing but negative comments about the DC and DC owners in this
group.
>
>No he doesn't.
Congrats, Darien! It seems you've made a new friend. LOL...
For some reason I'm reminded of an old SNL sketch that had Ross Perot
driving in a car with Admiral Stockdale after the vice presidential debate
of 1992...
John Kitchar
questions, I'm ignoring him due to his many insults and the fact that he's
too far off topic. What do games like Shenmue and Sonic have to do with
racing?Until he calms down I'm leaving him alone. As for you, if you wish to
keep debating the subject, I'd appreciate you holding off in the insults
too.
Round 4, going in for the kill:
Incossee wrote in message <388c...@news.peakpeak.com>...
>
>That's just a guess, and a guess based on another guess that Sega is going
>to rush Sega GT. I think Sega GT is going to be a rushed effort to offer a
>game that competes with the GT games, and will therefore not be one of
>Sega's most technically impressive games
Every racing game that runs under 60 fps will be according to you, a rushed
effort. In a sense, I agree. Let's focus a bit on this statement. Games take
time to make--maybe it's economically unfeasable for developers to produce a
DC GT racing game that runs at 60fps. This could be the reason there is no
60 fps multiple AI GT DC racer. Maybe, because the DC is a little weak IMO,
developers opt out for an easier solution---namley 30fps. MSR is a perfect
example of this. It could be that given enough time, they could find a way
to get it to run at 60 (I doubt it though)---but that would mean a huge loss
in profit I imagine. Otherwise we'd see it happen. Again, IMO (I'm getting
sick of adding this shit---note that all future comments are IMO), I will
say that we will not see a 60 fps GT DC racer because the DC is a little
weak and thus, developers who like to profit can't afford to invest the
years it would take to optimize their racer to run at a solid 60. How long
did they work on Sonic? Shenmue? You think someone is going to invest that
much time in a racer, just to get it to run at 60 fps? Do most gamers even
notice that TXR runs at 60 and Speed Devils runs at 30? This leads into the
following discussion about the unique 60fps racer, TXR.
>
>BTW, maybe you should try Tokyo Xtreme Racer, a first gen 60 fps racer.
>Might have a few bugs, but based on playing that, I have no doubts as to
the
>DC's hardware being up to the task of handling a great looking, multiple AI
>60 fps racer (how does TXR fall short by your standards anyway?) The
person
>
I like to compare DC TXR to N64 F-ZeroX. Both game run fast of course (look
like 60 to me) but both games use unusual "tricks" to acheive their fast
framerates. Just because F-Zero runs at 60 mostly (I see slowdown), that did
not mean that a much later game like Boss' GT racer World Driver
Championship (my fav N64 racer) would ever even come CLOSE to running at 60.
Like F-Zero, TXR uses (nighttime) elevated tracks to eliminate/reduce the
distant off-track details. While F-Zero has very low poly counts for the
"cars", TXR has only one (darn good)AI. The TXR traffic is nice but not what
I would call AI and certainly, the developers cut many corners in their poly
design. I owned/beat TXR and really liked the game BTW. This game, more than
any other DC racer probably, lead me to conclude that the DC is little
under-powered for realistic GT type racers. It just ain't going to happen.
Now on to V8 again!
>Just one more comment. A bus is roughly 30 feet long. At chase view, if
>you selected the bus, you wouldn't be able to see the front end of it
>with30-feet pop-up. In short, you've got to have absolutely no .
>
Insults snipped.
Who's measuring from the back of the bus? I said the draw is ahead of your
car. Looks like I'll have to hold your hand here: Get out your tape measure.
Attach it to the front bumper. Then measure out to the untextured line in
the hillsides that line the roads in old Utah for example. I agreed before
that it's farther than 30 feet but come-on, what's your point? THE DRAW IS
TERRIBLE! Case closed---Verdict: Draw is unacceptable. Done. It's not a
racer anyway and it's just one
"first-gen/rushed-port/sloppy-programmed/third-moon-in-line-with-Jupiter
game---I listed many games with problems. Why focus on V8? It's such a great
game, let's just both agree to leave it alone.
JMK
Scott X
| post nothing but negative comments about the DC and DC owners in this
group.
| corrected someone who posted untrue *negative* remarks about the system?
| You do so much of the opposite... you're posting habits do not speak to
| neutrality. And do you even own a Dreamcast? If so, which games do you
own
| and actually like? I know it's a tangent, but I'm actually quite
interested
| in the answers to those questions.
I can't speak for Darien, but from my SegaRally 2 thread I know that he
prefers to have advanced AI in his racing games. That would be why he is
interjecting here, and he already said he doesn't agree with John. I feel
the same way, to a lesser extent than some of the new folk do here. Not so
much in racing games either, but I would like to see more realistic, meaning
detailed, environments and AI in action/platform games. Especially the
sneakin around and killin people type of platformer.
| Yup, it sure does, at least for the majority of people who simply don't
care
| about realistic AI in their racing games. If it wasn't okay, game
devlopers
| would have gone to much greater lengths to include it long ago. As it
| stands people want lots of cars, lots of well-designed tracks, good
control,
| multi-player options, good graphics, good challenge, lots of gameplay
modes,
| and basic everyday fun in their racers. I doubt you'll see any racers
| released with "Incredible realistic AI!!!" plastered on the box anytime
| soon, because people by and large don't care about that. Realistic AI in
| racers is not a selling point. If the market dictates that it is, I'm
sure
| we'll see more of it, but for now, it doesn't matter to most people.
I agree with this, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Another
case where majority rules in the wrong way. I'll put this in the same
bucket with people who make me drive below the speed limit because they
block both lanes, in city, as opposed to driving slow in_the_slow_lane!
|
|
Scott X
something negative about the subject. I was not insulting you though, I was
insulting your posts and stuborness to listen and acknowledge the facts
presented to you, such as those I gave you in my last post. This is a
challenge, not an insult. Any comments about your posts are simply my
opinion on their state, and any statements such as "you're simply fooling
yourself" are stated after hypothetical conclusions, that I was assuming you
hadn't made. Give those links that I gave you a shot, if you're interested
in learning more. If not, expect far worse "insults" than I have given,
from others I mean.
"John Kitchar" <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote in message
news:86jng...@enews2.newsguy.com...
terrell gibbs
<jkit...@netpci.com> wrote:
>I will
>say that we will not see a 60 fps GT DC racer because the DC is a little
>weak and thus, developers who like to profit can't afford to invest the
>years it would take to optimize their racer to run at a solid 60.
Fortunately, this sort of knowledge is cumulative. Once a developer acquires the
level of understanding required to program a system efficiently, future games go
much more rapidly. That is why the level of performance on PS games has
increased so dramatically from the first generation, even though developers
aren't really spending more time.
Scott X
rushed
| effort. In a sense, I agree. Let's focus a bit on this statement. Games
take
| time to make--maybe it's economically unfeasable for developers to produce
a
| DC GT racing game that runs at 60fps. This could be the reason there is no
IMO,
| developers opt out for an easier solution---namley 30fps. MSR is a
perfect
| example of this. It could be that given enough time, they could find a way
| to get it to run at 60 (I doubt it though)---but that would mean a huge
loss
| in profit I imagine. Otherwise we'd see it happen. Again, IMO (I'm getting
| say that we will not see a 60 fps GT DC racer because the DC is a little
| weak and thus, developers who like to profit can't afford to invest the
| did they work on Sonic? Shenmue? You think someone is going to invest that
| much time in a racer, just to get it to run at 60 fps? Do most gamers even
| notice that TXR runs at 60 and Speed Devils runs at 30? This leads into
the
| following discussion about the unique 60fps racer, TXR.
This is a reasonable question, one that I can't answer absolutely.
However, given the rushed productions that were Sega Rally 2 and TXR, both
of which were made on an old dev kit that limited the systems power to
arguably 1/3-1/2 the system ability, and both of which reach or sustain
60fps, I think that it is unrealistic to use them as the measurement of the
systems lack of power, rather than a measurement of its potential. The Dev
Kit bit is a fact that can be backed up by others on this group, of all
things I can't find a single mention of old Dev kits anywhere online. I
look at the current games in the light that they use 1/3-maybe 2/3 of the
systems power, based on what I have read about the dev kits, which I can't
find now. If future games are going to have 2-3X the power available to
them, I see no reason why multiple AI, realistic physics, and higher quality
graphics at 60fps is not possible. I judge this based on more than just
optimism, but on experience with past consoles, and the fact that they all
achieved much greater potential than their first gen games showed, and all
of the info, which I gave to you, regarding the DC's potential.
| I like to compare DC TXR to N64 F-ZeroX. Both game run fast of course
(look
| like 60 to me) but both games use unusual "tricks" to acheive their fast
| framerates. Just because F-Zero runs at 60 mostly (I see slowdown), that
did
| not mean that a much later game like Boss' GT racer World Driver
| Championship (my fav N64 racer) would ever even come CLOSE to running at
60.
| Like F-Zero, TXR uses (nighttime) elevated tracks to eliminate/reduce the
| distant off-track details. While F-Zero has very low poly counts for the
| "cars", TXR has only one (darn good)AI. The TXR traffic is nice but not
what
| I would call AI and certainly, the developers cut many corners in their
poly
| design. I owned/beat TXR and really liked the game BTW. This game, more
than
| any other DC racer probably, lead me to conclude that the DC is little
| under-powered for realistic GT type racers. It just ain't going to happen.
| Now on to V8 again!
Looking closely at TXR, I see flatshaded car models, which are fairly
low in polycount, but higher than most games. I see a track that seems
unfinished in areas, but stunning because of its realistic rendering and
60fps. I don't think that this game goes much over 500,000 PPS personally,
but I could be wrong. This observation could obviously go two ways, the DC
is limited and can't push very many polys at 60fps, or this game is limited
and since it looks pretty good anyway, we have a lot to look forward to in
future games. The later is supported by history and the facts and the first
is contradicted by history and the facts. The only true part of the first
statement is that the DC can't push as many polys at 60fps, it can push more
at 30fps. This is true for any system though, and I would rather see more
detail at 30fps, especially if the tracks would look barren in comparison at
60fps. I do think that we will have a lot more to look forward to than the
existing crop of games though, even if the PVR's special lighting and other
hardware effects were to be the only things implemented in future games.
| Insults snipped.
| Who's measuring from the back of the bus? I said the draw is ahead of your
| car. Looks like I'll have to hold your hand here: Get out your tape
measure.
| Attach it to the front bumper. Then measure out to the untextured line in
| the hillsides that line the roads in old Utah for example. I agreed before
| that it's farther than 30 feet but come-on, what's your point? THE DRAW IS
| TERRIBLE! Case closed---Verdict: Draw is unacceptable. Done. It's not a
| racer anyway and it's just one
| "first-gen/rushed-port/sloppy-programmed/third-moon-in-line-with-Jupiter
| game---I listed many games with problems. Why focus on V8? It's such a
great
| game, let's just both agree to leave it alone.
|
I can see how it would be a great PSX game, but this was one case where
I could not excuse the sloppy port that was done, or the glitches that came
with it. This is a good beta test game, not a good finished product. Of
course all of this is just my opinion.
Darien Allen
<incos...@excite.com> we were graced with this statement:
>I think not... but whatever. BTW, Darien, you have a distinct tendency to
>post nothing but negative comments about the DC and DC owners in this group.
>I'm curious, have you ever made positive comments about the DC, or ever
>corrected someone who posted untrue *negative* remarks about the system?
>You do so much of the opposite... you're posting habits do not speak to
>neutrality. And do you even own a Dreamcast? If so, which games do you own
>and actually like? I know it's a tangent, but I'm actually quite interested
>in the answers to those questions.
No you aren't your simply interested in trying to paint a false
picture.
And it doesn't really matter which titles I own. Scanning this
newsgroup at various times would tell you what titles I've owned/own.
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
terrell gibbs
<Weap...@ix.Yermeatnetcom.com> wrote:
> This is usenet, certain "insults" are unavoidable if you want to post a
>something negative about the subject. I was not insulting you though, I was
>insulting your posts and stuborness to listen and acknowledge the facts
>presented to you, such as those I gave you in my last post. This is a
>challenge, not an insult.
I disagree. Saying that somebody exhibits "stubborness" is an ad hominem
remark. It is quite possible to direct your comments entirely to the substance
of somebody's statement, without commenting on his personal characteristics.
NonDeskript
> I disagree. Saying that somebody exhibits "stubborness" is an ad
> hominem remark. It is quite possible to direct your comments entirely
> to the substance of somebody's statement, without commenting on his
> personal characteristics.
Except when that person is displaying Neo/Doane levels of stubborness...
;)
-David
Scott X
him right out. I appologize for that, I'd explain my reasons but what's the
point? It really never does any good to insult the other in a conversation.
"terrell gibbs" <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote in message
news:tgibbs-C084F0....@news.bu.edu...
| In article <86kd2l$4c$1...@nntp5.atl.mindspring.net>, "Scott X"
| <Weap...@ix.Yermeatnetcom.com> wrote:
|
| > This is usenet, certain "insults" are unavoidable if you want to post
a
| >something negative about the subject. I was not insulting you though, I
was
| >insulting your posts and stuborness to listen and acknowledge the facts
| >presented to you, such as those I gave you in my last post. This is a
| >challenge, not an insult.
|
Incossee
John Kitchar wrote in message <86jng...@enews2.newsguy.com>...
>Round 4, going in for the kill:
It's ok. Really. You need not commit suicide over this. The embarassment
should subside with time.
>
>Incossee wrote in message <388c...@news.peakpeak.com>...
>>
>>That's just a guess, and a guess based on another guess that Sega is going
>>to rush Sega GT. I think Sega GT is going to be a rushed effort to offer
a
>>game that competes with the GT games, and will therefore not be one of
>>Sega's most technically impressive games
>
>Every racing game that runs under 60 fps will be according to you, a rushed
>effort. In a sense, I agree.
Where did I say that? I just believe that Sega GT will probably be rushed
for the reason I just stated--but it might not be rushed, and it certainly
might run at 60 fps. I really don't know or particularly care.
>Let's focus a bit on this statement. Games take
>time to make--maybe it's economically unfeasable for developers to produce
a
>DC GT racing game that runs at 60fps. This could be the reason there is no
>60 fps multiple AI GT DC racer. Maybe, because the DC is a little weak IMO,
>developers opt out for an easier solution---namley 30fps.
And maybe, just maybe, if you actually paid attention to anything anyone's
been saying around here, it has something to do with the fact that it takes
time and experience for developers to improve the level of quality in games.
Developers learn how to use the system much more effectively as they make
more games... it's why pretty much every PSX game today looks a whole lot
better than every PSX game 4 years ago. Again, let's put your deeply flawed
logic in perspective of Ridge Racer. That game ran at 30 fps or less, it
had extremely blocky environments, low res textures, flat shading, simple 1
car at a time AI, and serious serious pop-up. Of course by your logic, the
PSX is too weak to really do any better without a developer putting a lot
more time and effort than is realistic or profitable, so therefore, we saw
in 1995 the level of quality that we should expect to see for then and
forever. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The more games are made, the better they
will be, and by a significant margin. Based on the PSX, based on the
Saturn, based on the Genesis, based on pretty much every major system ever,
based on common sense, based on the knowledge that even Soul Calibur, TXR,
and every launch title doesn't come close to the DC hardware limits
suggested by independent 3rd parts, based on the fact that better software
and dev. tools get made with time, based on current high end games, based on
all of this we know that the DC IS capable of a lot more, and developers
WILL take advantage of it. It's quite obvious to the rest of us. What is
so difficult to understand here?
>I agreed before
>that it's farther than 30 feet but come-on, what's your point?
My simple point was that as evidenced by your exaggeration of that problem,
you are more interested in trying to make your point, than actual facts...
Something you've demonstrated well enough by repeatedly ignoring every
rational argument that's been made so far.
Incossee
Darien Allen wrote in message
>No you aren't your simply interested in trying to paint a false
>picture.
Paint a false picture? Of what? Yeah, I suppose you and John are right.
Despite every bit of evidence that points to the contrary, the DC has pretty
much maxed out its capabilities with 1st generation games. Is that the
false picture I'm trying to paint? Please enlighten me, since I've got a
pretty secure sense of my own objectivity.
>And it doesn't really matter which titles I own. Scanning this
>newsgroup at various times would tell you what titles I've owned/own.
Well I just wanted to know... it really wasn't related to the thread, as I
pointed out. I'm not going to waste my time scanning old newsgroup posts to
find out, so it made a lot more sense to ask. But if you feel that whether
or not you own a DC or any games for it is something you like to keep
private, that's your choice. I haven't ever personally witnessed you say
one positive thing about the DC or any of its games, and was wondering if
you had, and I was simply unaware of it? I also happened to notice
something about editing for a PSX site or magazine or something in your
signature once. Seems you like to keep all this private, but I'll ask
anyway... do you work for a Sony site/magazine? If I'm mistaken about your
objectivity being in question, you could clear it up.
Darien Allen
<ten...@knuf.rd> we were graced with this statement:
>On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:39:23 -0500, terrell gibbs wrote:
>
>> I disagree. Saying that somebody exhibits "stubborness" is an ad
>> hominem remark. It is quite possible to direct your comments entirely
>> to the substance of somebody's statement, without commenting on his
>> personal characteristics.
>
>Except when that person is displaying Neo/Doane levels of stubborness...
>;)
Who else is capable of that? ;)
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
Darien Allen
<incos...@excite.com> we were graced with this statement:
>
>Darien Allen wrote in message
><1eqr8ssptor9rojnf...@4ax.com>...
>
>>No you aren't your simply interested in trying to paint a false
>>picture.
>
>Paint a false picture? Of what? Yeah, I suppose you and John are right.
>Despite every bit of evidence that points to the contrary, the DC has pretty
>much maxed out its capabilities with 1st generation games. Is that the
>false picture I'm trying to paint? Please enlighten me, since I've got a
>pretty secure sense of my own objectivity.
Eh no, You've NEVER seen my post that I felt the DC was maxed, I've
gone out of my way to state that I don't feel that is the case. I've
only commented on the AI and slowdown that I know exist in SR and TXR.
>>And it doesn't really matter which titles I own. Scanning this
>>newsgroup at various times would tell you what titles I've owned/own.
>
>Well I just wanted to know... it really wasn't related to the thread, as I
>pointed out. I'm not going to waste my time scanning old newsgroup posts to
>find out, so it made a lot more sense to ask. But if you feel that whether
>or not you own a DC or any games for it is something you like to keep
>private, that's your choice. I haven't ever personally witnessed you say
>one positive thing about the DC or any of its games, and was wondering if
>you had, and I was simply unaware of it? I also happened to notice
As a matter of fact I happen to be a HUGE fan of TXR and was quite to
support it at a time when most ppl where trashing it because it only
had one track. As I helped explain yes it only has one track, but the
style of racing is such that it doesn't really hurt the title much.
Sure if could use additional city courses, but it is pretty cool the
way it is set up. Of course you conveniently missed those posts,
because as usual you've got this hard on to paint me as someone
negative about the DC. But this isn't anything new because you've
been doing it for some time now. BTW TXR is one of the titles I own.
Do you want an itemized list of the others? Times and dates of
purchase? Locations too?
>something about editing for a PSX site or magazine or something in your
>signature once. Seems you like to keep all this private, but I'll ask
>anyway... do you work for a Sony site/magazine? If I'm mistaken about your
>objectivity being in question, you could clear it up.
I'm not sure whether this was suppose to be funny or not. You had me
spitting my drink up...
PT I write reviews at www.coremagazine.com where I've reviewed titles
across all 3 current systems and oh shit..I've actually written
favorable DC reviews there..oh my god......that can't be right....
Besides that I write reviews for PSExtreme and Q64 magazine.
I don't put any of that in my sig anymore because quite honestly, I
don't feel the need to advertise.
So you were saying?
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081
Incossee
Darien Allen wrote in message ...
>Eh no, You've NEVER seen my post that I felt the DC was maxed, I've
>gone out of my way to state that I don't feel that is the case.
Quite right. I missed such a post. Like I said, in all honesty, the only
posts I've read by you involved rather negative remarks about the DC/DC
owners. I definitely haven't read all of your posts, and I'll take your
word for it that you did say such things.
>Do you want an itemized list of the others? Times and dates of
>purchase? Locations too?
Nope, that's fine. :) I realize you probably read into what I was saying
as an accusation, but I was genuinely curious about whether you were a DC
owner yourself, because I didn't know.
>Besides that I write reviews for PSExtreme and Q64 magazine.
Fair enough. The only thing I saw you mention was PSExtreme in a sig in the
Sega group.
>I don't put any of that in my sig anymore because quite honestly, I
>don't feel the need to advertise.
>So you were saying?
I was asking you questions, because of skepticism based on the sampling of
your posts I had read. Thanks for answering... If everything you say is
true, I'm happy to admit that I might have been wrong. It could very well
have been strange coincidence that the only posts of yours I read were
negative about the DC, and I overlooked many positive posts of yours. I
don't generally read your posts anymore, unless they are directed at me, so
I'll take your word for it. Honest mistake.
Joe Ottoson
<incos...@excite.com> wrote:
> I was asking you questions, because of skepticism based on the sampling of
> your posts I had read. Thanks for answering... If everything you say is
> true, I'm happy to admit that I might have been wrong. It could very well
> have been strange coincidence that the only posts of yours I read were
> negative about the DC, and I overlooked many positive posts of yours. I
> don't generally read your posts anymore, unless they are directed at me, so
> I'll take your word for it. Honest mistake.
Well just for the thrill of sticking my nose where it really doesn't
belong... ;) I've always gotten the sense that Darien's more interested
in playing the part of devil's advocate than in hyping any given
system.
Now hyping certain Namco products is another story entirely... ;)
Scott X
as universal company wise as he has proven to be.