Genesis/Sega CD colour counts....
REMOVE
Was reading about the Sega CD on Wikipedia (yes I know not the BEST
source of reliable info but still) & saw this interesting footnote ;
/START QUOTE/
Technical Trivia
* Using HAM (Hold and Modify) techniques with the colors used for
their games, some developers managed to display much more color than the
meager 64 that the Sega CD could normally display. This was especially
put to good use for the games Snatcher (which can display 192 colors on
screen at once) and Eternal Champions: Challenge From the Dark Side
(which displayed a whopping 256 colors at once!!)
NOTE: This is actually incorrect and it's a common myth; neither game
exceeded 64 colors on screen. You can take a raw screenshot for either
game at any point and do a color count with a program and the usual
color count will be 30-50 colors. While these games did put good use to
the Genesis/Sega CD limited colors on screen, neither Snatcher or
Eternal Champions CD exceeded. Eternal Champions CD especially looks
deceiving due to large amount of dithering.
/END QUOTE/
Scott H, you have stated that you have done colour counts on EC:CD so
what's your opinion on this ????
Any others care to comment ?
THanks,
BRad.
LocalH
> Hi all,
>
> Was reading about the Sega CD on Wikipedia (yes I know not the BEST
> source of reliable info but still) & saw this interesting footnote ;
>
> /START QUOTE/
>
> Technical Trivia
>
> * Using HAM (Hold and Modify) techniques with the colors used for
> their games, some developers managed to display much more color than the
> meager 64 that the Sega CD could normally display. This was especially
> put to good use for the games Snatcher (which can display 192 colors on
> screen at once) and Eternal Champions: Challenge From the Dark Side
> (which displayed a whopping 256 colors at once!!)
>
> NOTE: This is actually incorrect and it's a common myth; neither game
> exceeded 64 colors on screen. You can take a raw screenshot for either
> game at any point and do a color count with a program and the usual
> color count will be 30-50 colors. While these games did put good use to
> the Genesis/Sega CD limited colors on screen, neither Snatcher or
> Eternal Champions CD exceeded. Eternal Champions CD especially looks
> deceiving due to large amount of dithering.
>
> /END QUOTE/
>
HAM, as the Sega CD does no such thing (HAM is a video mode exclusive to
the Amiga computers, and has nothing to do with the way the Genesis and
Sega CD can increase the total color count in software). On the Genesis
(and thus the Sega CD as well), it is easy to change the pallet
mid-frame, allowing the hardware to display more than 61 colors. There
is also a hardware shadow/hilight mode that can, at best, triple the
available colors in a limited fashion (the additional colors are not
discrete but half- and double-bright versions of the base pallet). As I
mentioned in my WP edit, the Sonic games (the Genesis games as well as
Sonic CD) are a great way to see more than 61 colors in the water stages.
The EC:CD 256 colors statistic came from the old days, as far as I know.
When it came out, I seem to remember reading about it having 256 colors
in Game Players. Perhaps the developers were just including the "fake"
colors generated by the dithering when output using RF or composite
(which definitely blurs such dithering, this has already been tested and
confirmed).
There is also a homebrew demo ROM that can display the Genesis' absolute
maximum of 1536 colors (512 colors base pallet in shadow, normal, and
highlight mode). This is the exception to the rule, however, and would
almost certainly be useless for gaming (most tricks along those lines
are only useful in demos with little or no interactivity).
Look at Scott's website (I don't have the URL handy right now but you
can probably find it somewhere in this NG)- he covers some of this,
including the way that dithering creates the illusion of a higher color
count.
Scott H
REMOVE wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Was reading about the Sega CD on Wikipedia (yes I know not the BEST
> source of reliable info but still) & saw this interesting footnote ;
>
>
> Scott H, you have stated that you have done colour counts on EC:CD so
> what's your opinion on this ????
> Any others care to comment ?
I've got the actual color counts for Eternal Champions CD listed
here, it's in the 54 colors range. You're right though, the dithering
techniques used in EC CD are some of the best on the Genesis, right
next to Ranger X, it looks like 128+ colors easily on a TV screen or
with a slight blur applied. To my knowledge, the only game to display
over the 61 color limit is Sonic 2 (75 or so) using five palettes at
once in certain levels with water in them. LocalH is correct about the
ROM file which displays 1536 colors in a non-game environment, using
the Genesis' hardware's shadow/lighting effect. I've got a picture of
that up at the same link, along with what it would look like at 256
colors or 128.
http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/TheSegaGenesis.htm
Basically my opinion on the color counts of the TG16, Genesis and
SNES is that they are all held back by similar limitations and merely
excel in limited areas. The TG16 was technically limited to 32
palettes of 16 colors each. So the FAQ claims it could actually
display 480 colors at once (discounting the transparent color in each
palette), when it could actually only display about 96 colors at once,
which is only 6 palettes of 16 colors. The Genesis was hard limited to
64 colors at once, but as I currently understand it this was not
limited to 16 color palettes, so a background could have more than 16
colors in it, while the sprites could be using different 16 color
palettes. So you have a trade off, 96 colors on screen of 6 different
16 color palettes on different objects, or 64 colors on screen, with
some objects of 32 or so colors and others with 16. Either method
could be argued as being more "flexible".
Similarly, while the SNES was reputed to be able to display 256
colors on screen, virtually no game used this mode in gameplay, most
games floated between 90 and 120 colors, with 150 colors being the max
I've seen in gameplay. But the SNES could draw from a much higher
color palette, and could display more colors in a single object (while
sprites were typically still 16 color objects). The consequence of the
higher color counts was severly limited scroll speed, less than half
the sprites on screen of the Genesis, and less than half the background
layers (faked or no) of the Genesis. So, everything was a trade off,
even with the SNES being newer hardware by over two years.
Scott
REMOVE
> REMOVE wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>Was reading about the Sega CD on Wikipedia (yes I know not the BEST
>>source of reliable info but still) & saw this interesting footnote ;
>>
>
> <SNIP>
>
>>Scott H, you have stated that you have done colour counts on EC:CD so
>>what's your opinion on this ????
>>Any others care to comment ?
>
>
> I've got the actual color counts for Eternal Champions CD listed
> here, it's in the 54 colors range. You're right though, the dithering
> techniques used in EC CD are some of the best on the Genesis, right
> next to Ranger X, it looks like 128+ colors easily on a TV screen or
> with a slight blur applied. To my knowledge, the only game to display
> over the 61 color limit is Sonic 2 (75 or so) using five palettes at
> once in certain levels with water in them.
It's somewhat funny that Sonic 2 holds the record yet is from 1992 ! You
would think that some game after then might have beaten it ;-)
>
> Basically my opinion on the color counts of the TG16, Genesis and
> SNES is that they are all held back by similar limitations and merely
> excel in limited areas. The TG16 was technically limited to 32
> palettes of 16 colors each. So the FAQ claims it could actually
> display 480 colors at once (discounting the transparent color in each
> palette), when it could actually only display about 96 colors at once,
> which is only 6 palettes of 16 colors. The Genesis was hard limited to
> 64 colors at once, but as I currently understand it this was not
> limited to 16 color palettes, so a background could have more than 16
> colors in it, while the sprites could be using different 16 color
> palettes. So you have a trade off, 96 colors on screen of 6 different
> 16 color palettes on different objects, or 64 colors on screen, with
> some objects of 32 or so colors and others with 16. Either method
> could be argued as being more "flexible".
> Similarly, while the SNES was reputed to be able to display 256
> colors on screen, virtually no game used this mode in gameplay, most
> games floated between 90 and 120 colors, with 150 colors being the max
> I've seen in gameplay. But the SNES could draw from a much higher
> color palette, and could display more colors in a single object (while
> sprites were typically still 16 color objects). The consequence of the
> higher color counts was severly limited scroll speed, less than half
> the sprites on screen of the Genesis, and less than half the background
> layers (faked or no) of the Genesis. So, everything was a trade off,
> even with the SNES being newer hardware by over two years.
Yes it's something I never even thought of back in those days as I
wasn't aware of things like that. But seeing it more & more while
playing ROMs (SHHH!) of SNES games that fact keeps coming in my head :
Yea yea so what if the colours are more ! Boy that's jerky animation &
terrible slowdown !!!
>
> Scott
>
> www.gamepilgrimage.com
>
Air Raid
on-screen at once, in hardware, without programmers resorting to
special tricks or techniques that introduce other limitations of
movement. the hardware was released in late 1988 in Japan (the
MegaDrive). 64 colors at once was not much better than what the Sega
Master System could display, which was either 52 or 32 at once.
Master System hardware came out in 1984 or 1985 in Japan as the Sega
Mark III, and in 1986 in the U.S. going from 32~52 colors on
screen to 64 colors on screen in the space of 3-4 years is an
unacceptable improvement. one could say it is a virtual step back given
the time (not the actual number).
yet, the NEC PC-Engine (TurboGrafx) was released in Japan a whole year
earlier, in late 1987, and it could display at least 256 colors
on-screen at once, in hardware and actually 481 (240 for sprites, 241
for backgrounds)
Genesis' arcade ancestor, the System 16 board, from around ~1986 could
handle 4096 colors on-screen at once, in hardware. It would've been
good if Genesis could have had decent chuck of that, like 512 or 1024.
(remember, not talking about Genesis' color palette that was 512)
BelPowerslave
> on-screen at once, in hardware, without programmers resorting to
> special tricks or techniques that introduce other limitations of
> movement.
What!? Back then that was bad-ass. *What's pathetic* is that the SNES
could do way more...but only with limiting what else it could do at the
same time.
Bel
Scott H
> it's really pathetic that Genesis could only display 64 colors
> on-screen at once, in hardware, without programmers resorting to
> special tricks or techniques that introduce other limitations of
> movement. the hardware was released in late 1988 in Japan (the
> MegaDrive). 64 colors at once was not much better than what the Sega
> Master System could display, which was either 52 or 32 at once.
> Master System hardware came out in 1984 or 1985 in Japan as the Sega
> Mark III, and in 1986 in the U.S. going from 32~52 colors on
> screen to 64 colors on screen in the space of 3-4 years is an
> unacceptable improvement. one could say it is a virtual step back given
> the time (not the actual number).
The SMS was 32 colors on screen, the Genesis was 64, but that's
not all of the picture. There was also a dramatic increase in sprite
size and color counts per sprite character, not to mention processing
power allowing for far more parallax and sprites on screen in the first
place.
> yet, the NEC PC-Engine (TurboGrafx) was released in Japan a whole year
> earlier, in late 1987, and it could display at least 256 colors
> on-screen at once, in hardware and actually 481 (240 for sprites, 241
> for backgrounds)
You're going to have to find a game that does more than 96 if
you're going to claim this. I haven't found one, and all TG16 games
have fewer sprites and backgrounds than many Genesis games do.
>
> Genesis' arcade ancestor, the System 16 board, from around ~1986 could
> handle 4096 colors on-screen at once, in hardware. It would've been
> good if Genesis could have had decent chuck of that, like 512 or 1024.
I think that the only thing you can point to as doing this (A system
technically superior to the Genesis with more than 100 colors at once)
would be to drop $800 on a NEO GEO.
> (remember, not talking about Genesis' color palette that was 512)
>
--
Scott
Scott H
REMOVE wrote:
> Scott H wrote:
> > I've got the actual color counts for Eternal Champions CD listed
> > here, it's in the 54 colors range. You're right though, the dithering
> > techniques used in EC CD are some of the best on the Genesis, right
> > next to Ranger X, it looks like 128+ colors easily on a TV screen or
> > with a slight blur applied. To my knowledge, the only game to display
> > over the 61 color limit is Sonic 2 (75 or so) using five palettes at
> > once in certain levels with water in them.
>
> Where exactly do you find this kind of information ???!!!!!
> It's somewhat funny that Sonic 2 holds the record yet is from 1992 ! You
> would think that some game after then might have beaten it ;-)
Sorry, for some reason this one didn't show up in Thunderbird or I'd
have replied earlier. I honestly don't remember who I was talking to,
he hasn't posted much since the discussion (I could look it up, but not
now), but he told me all about the shadow and lighting effect of the
Genesis, and the ROM which displays 1536 colors at once. I then took
Sonic 2 at his suggestion and proved that it broke the 64 color limit
using Gif Movie Gear's "reduce colors" option, which shows the original
color count of a BMP or PNG image before you lower it and only works up
to 256 colors at once. With Sonic 2 being so early, and such a
technically proficient game (Aquatic Ruins is the level which breaks
the color count, a level with 6 + parallax and transparency), I'd
certainly think that another game would have done better, but I've yet
to find any.
The Shadow effect was used in so few games, and mostly literally
as a shadow for characters fighting games. The swapped palette's
techique was an advanced technique that I doubt any developers were
concerned with implementing, considering its limited application.
Apart from simulating the effect water has on object, why would you
swap palettes in blocks taking up whole areas of the screen? Now, I do
wish that Konami had used this instead of the Shadow technique for
Bloodlines, as those levels with the water reflection and the splitting
backgrounds could have looked awesome with an extra palette in there.
It doesn't seem like *anybody* is noticing this! If you've seen it and
you think it's significant, it's not just in emulation and it is
significant. It sets the SNES and the Genesis back on the equal
footing they actually were, when the loudest mouths today would have
the SNES look like a NEO GEO at the same price as the Genesis.
> > Scott
> >
> > www.gamepilgrimage.com
> >
LocalH
> I honestly don't remember who I was talking to,
> he hasn't posted much since the discussion (I could look it up, but not
> now), but he told me all about the shadow and lighting effect of the
> Genesis, and the ROM which displays 1536 colors at once. I then took
> Sonic 2 at his suggestion and proved that it broke the 64 color limit
> using Gif Movie Gear's "reduce colors" option, which shows the original
> color count of a BMP or PNG image before you lower it and only works up
> to 256 colors at once.
That was me. I posted in this discussion somewhere, but I think my ISP's
news server is acting up - occasionally, I'll not see my post the day
after posting it, but I'll see other replies in the same thread.
Scott H
Ah yeah! Thanks for all of that, it was more informative than most
discussions have been in years.
--
Scott
Ross Hunter
> Air Raid wrote:
>> it's really pathetic that Genesis could only display 64 colors
>> on-screen at once, in hardware, without programmers resorting to
>> special tricks or techniques that introduce other limitations of
>> movement. the hardware was released in late 1988 in Japan (the
>> MegaDrive). 64 colors at once was not much better than what the Sega
>> Master System could display, which was either 52 or 32 at once.
>> Master System hardware came out in 1984 or 1985 in Japan as the Sega
>> Mark III, and in 1986 in the U.S. going from 32~52 colors on
>> screen to 64 colors on screen in the space of 3-4 years is an
>> unacceptable improvement. one could say it is a virtual step back given
>> the time (not the actual number).
>
> The SMS was 32 colors on screen, the Genesis was 64, but that's
> not all of the picture. There was also a dramatic increase in sprite
> size and color counts per sprite character, not to mention processing
> power allowing for far more parallax and sprites on screen in the first
> place.
>
>> yet, the NEC PC-Engine (TurboGrafx) was released in Japan a whole year
>> earlier, in late 1987, and it could display at least 256 colors
>> on-screen at once, in hardware and actually 481 (240 for sprites, 241
>> for backgrounds)
TG16 has the same limitation as genesis for a sprite's color count ,16
colors. It does have the advantage of 32 color palletes instead of only
4. Does this mean many developers pushed it all the way? From what I
have seen in TG16 games, probably not. Besides, like the genesis, TG16
is also limited to 512 possible colors. The TG16 max resolution is
512x240. Are either of these systems pathetic? NO
Source - wikipedia