Analog control in Nights - what is the point?
The Mario Monks
After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
It serves no purpose within the game; you don't need it. Since Nights is
NOT a 3-D game, and the fact that you are always constrained by a
time limit, causes the analog controller to become defunct. The player has
to be constantly moving quickly. You have no time to slow down and
explore, and no enemies to evade, thus moving leisurely is pointless. The
analog control becomes useless.
It seems that the analog controller is further proof that Sega is
a video game industry follower. The controllers real purpose is Sega's
futile attempt to prove that their R&D is not as dilatory as Nintendo's.
We are sure the Sega suits were very worried when they first saw the
greatest game ever created and said to themselves, "Nintendo has an analog
controller, so we have to have one. Who care if we don't have any games to
use it with.Just make one!". How pathetic. Unlike the greatest game ever
created in which the use ofthe analog controller enriches the gameplay
experience, (you couldn't play the greatest game ever created without it)
the analog controller in Nights is just a gimmick. But what did you expect
from a 32-bit generation that is saturated with sterile ideas. The only
leader in this industry is Nintendo and our God, Mario. Once you all
except this fact, you will all be on the path to reaching a higher plateau
of video gameplaying. May Mario bless you all on Sept. 29!
The Mario Monks
Frank Goldman
Maybe if you freaks actually played NiGHTS for more than 2 hours and tried to use the
regular controller you would see the difference. The analog offers better precision
when it comes to loops, links, etc. I have played the N64 and Mario64 and enjoyed
it immensly but with only 2 games I actually want for it I will do just fine with
Saturn and one of the most original games ever, NiGHTS !!!!!!
Long live NiGHTS !
Colt Duncan
Med student
The Mario Monks wrote:
>
> After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
> unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
Why are you bitching about a Saturn game in the PSX newsgroup?
Drew Holland
The Mario Monks wrote:
>
> After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
> unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
That's a pretty good point. Nights really doesn't need a analog
controller. Further more no Saturn game will ever require the analog
controll since not everyone will have it. Unlike the N64 in which every
game has been designed with the analog stick in mind.
Drew Holland
R. Allen
The Mario Monks (Wor...@theway.of.mario) wrote:
: After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
: unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
the analog controller, or did you actually play the game, Mario Meathead?
- Rob
MASHOOD KHAN
On 1 Sep 1996, The Mario Monks wrote:
> After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
> unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
> It serves no purpose within the game; you don't need it. Since Nights is
> NOT a 3-D game, and the fact that you are always constrained by a
> time limit, causes the analog controller to become defunct. The player has
> to be constantly moving quickly. You have no time to slow down and
> explore, and no enemies to evade, thus moving leisurely is pointless. The
> analog control becomes useless.
> It seems that the analog controller is further proof that Sega is
> a video game industry follower. The controllers real purpose is Sega's
> futile attempt to prove that their R&D is not as dilatory as Nintendo's.
> We are sure the Sega suits were very worried when they first saw the
> greatest game ever created and said to themselves, "Nintendo has an analog
> controller, so we have to have one. Who care if we don't have any games to
> use it with.Just make one!". How pathetic. Unlike the greatest game ever
> created in which the use ofthe analog controller enriches the gameplay
> experience, (you couldn't play the greatest game ever created without it)
> the analog controller in Nights is just a gimmick. But what did you expect
> from a 32-bit generation that is saturated with sterile ideas. The only
> leader in this industry is Nintendo and our God, Mario. Once you all
> except this fact, you will all be on the path to reaching a higher plateau
> of video gameplaying. May Mario bless you all on Sept. 29!
>
>
> The Mario Monks
>
>
>And i suppose with a name like the "Mario Monks" you are not in the
slightest bit BIASED.
Mash
David Aldridge
Drew Holland (bun...@nwlink.com) writes:
> That's a pretty good point. Nights really doesn't need a analog
> controller. Further more no Saturn game will ever require the analog
> controll since not everyone will have it. Unlike the N64 in which every
> game has been designed with the analog stick in mind.
The exact same reasoning could be used to say why 64DD games will never be
as good as CD titles for the Saturn or PSX.
Btw, you must have forgotten about games which are being designed with the
analog controller in mind such as Daytona Circuit, Dark Saviour, etc. It's
also nice to suddenly be able to get analog control out of older games
designed for the analog Racer, such as Sega Rally.
John Tisch
Drew Holland wrote:
>
> That's a pretty good point. Nights really doesn't need a analog
> controller. Further more no Saturn game will ever require the analog
> controll since not everyone will have it. Unlike the N64 in which every
> game has been designed with the analog stick in mind.
>
Yeah all ... 2 of them ... ooppss ...
- John
terrell gibbs
: That's a pretty good point. Nights really doesn't need a analog
: controller. Further more no Saturn game will ever require the analog
: controll since not everyone will have it. Unlike the N64 in which every
: game has been designed with the analog stick in mind.
Most likely, future games will be designed like NiGHTS, to work OK with
the standard controller, but better with the analog controller. This is,
after all, the approach Sega has taken with the 6-button Genesis
controller and with the gun controller for VC.
kag...@imap2.asu.edu
Med student (@netmail.hscbklyn.edu) wrote:
: The Mario Monks wrote:
: >
: > After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
: > unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
: Why are you bitching about a Saturn game in the PSX newsgroup?
Because they're cocksuckers who like it in the ass.
--
Net-Surfer
Chris.
___________________________________________________
|The Greatest Films of All Time |
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|___________________________________________________|
|kag...@imap2.asu.edu |
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Zen Zenith
John Tisch wrote:
>
> Drew Holland wrote:
> >
> > That's a pretty good point. Nights really doesn't need a analog
> > controller. Further more no Saturn game will ever require the analog
> > controll since not everyone will have it. Unlike the N64 in which every
> > game has been designed with the analog stick in mind.
> >
>
> Yeah all ... 2 of them ... ooppss ...
LOL Yeah... heh that's the exact same number as the Saturn.. NiGHTS and
Daytona.. hmmm ... so N64 and Saturn are even.. oh... wait... heh.. I
forgot... Saturn has *other* games to.. :)
>
> - John
Zen
--
___ ___ _ _
|_ | __| \| | "The problem with the past is
/ /| _|| .` | that it keeps turning into
|___|___|_|\_| the future" -- Calvin & Hobbes
shane sux
On 1 Sep 1996 17:20:33 GMT, The Mario Monks <Wor...@theway.of.mario>
wrote:
> After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
>unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
>It serves no purpose within the game; you don't need it.
sigh. the multi-controller is totally useful and wonderful in Nights,
you probably have no clue as to what analog control is, so you would
not have noticed.... also, it was not just developed for use with
Nights, several other games will use it (Dark Savior and Enemy Zero
come to mind)...
but your opinons are so obviously invalid, i cant imagine Anyone Ever
Caring about a single, asinine thing that you could ever write, so why
dont you just unplug your computer, ok?
^_^ -neifirst
Schmack Daddy
The problem with Sega's new control pad is that you can't use the d-pad AND
analog at the same time...not true with Nintendo's...
--
Schmack Daddy
jcb...@concentric.net
Carl-Henrik "Kungen" Skårstedt
Schmack Daddy wrote:
> The problem with Sega's new control pad is that you can't use the d-pad AND
> analog at the same time...not true with Nintendo's...
It would have to be a very simple game to allow such a complicated control...
I mean, if you are controlling one aspect of a game with your right hand,
and another with your left and the controls were kind of similar on both
hands, then I for one would be very confused about the two directional controllers.
I think SEGA games in general (compared to Nintendo games) requires more of
attention to the game than to the controller itself.
--
/Carl-Henrik Skårstedt
-"If it was easy, then anyone with a cool
haircut and an attitude could do it."
/My publisher.
John C. Alexander
Med student <@netmail.hscbklyn.edu> writes:
>The Mario Monks wrote:
>>
>> After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
>> unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
>Why are you bitching about a Saturn game in the PSX newsgroup?
Still, don't you find it amusing that they are bitching about the
analog controller built in, when they're own (N64) controller also has
one?
--
Topher afo...@atlas.vcu.edu
ru...@connect.ab.ca
On 3 Sep 1996 05:54:29 GMT, "Schmack Daddy" <jcb...@concentric.net> wrote:
>The problem with Sega's new control pad is that you can't use the d-pad AND
>analog at the same time...not true with Nintendo's...
>--
Actually, when in O mode (analog) both D-pads are useable but it relies on the
game itself for them to work.
Dark Saviors uses both D-pads at the same time; one for movement and the other
to control camera angle.
>Schmack Daddy
>jcb...@concentric.net
>
>
-Rune
Greg Sewart
The Mario Monks wrote:
>
> After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
> unassuming Mario Monks,
Unassuming, hehehehehe.........
Greg
"Over-specialize and you breed in weakness."
-Ghost in the Shell
Saturn/Genesis/SegaCD
PsychoKick
The analog controller improves the control immensely. You can fly in
any direction at any degree whatsoever instead of just the eight compass
directions, and at different speeds no less. Anyone who's played a game like
"Wing Commander" with a digital pad knows the huge difference an analog
controller makes in flying games.
--
-PsychoKick
http://www.panix.com/~wyoon
School of Hard Nox and other chaos...
Richard T Jordan
> The analog controller improves the control immensely. You can fly
in
>any direction at any degree whatsoever instead of just the eight
compass
>directions, and at different speeds no less. Anyone who's played a
game like
>"Wing Commander" with a digital pad knows the huge difference an
analog
>controller makes in flying games.
Great in a game like WC, but Nights flying sequences are
2D....hence the topic of this post :)
terrell gibbs
In article <01bb995b$c5b57da0$8571...@jcbrick.concentric.net>, "Schmack
Daddy" <jcb...@concentric.net> wrote:
:The problem with Sega's new control pad is that you can't use the d-pad AND
:analog at the same time...not true with Nintendo's...
If you have 3 hands...
Dragonmaster Lou
"Schmack Daddy" <jcb...@concentric.net> wrote:
>The problem with Sega's new control pad is that you can't use the d-pad AND
>analog at the same time...not true with Nintendo's...
Actually you can. I've done it myself in the opening menu screens in
NiGHTS. I use the reg pad to select the game, and then the analog pad
to play w/o switching.
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Yupasawa
"Carl-Henrik \"Kungen\" Skrstedt" <ca...@funcom.com> wrote:
]Schmack Daddy wrote:
]> The problem with Sega's new control pad is that you can't use the d-pad
AND
]> analog at the same time...not true with Nintendo's...
]It would have to be a very simple game to allow such a complicated
control...
]I mean, if you are controlling one aspect of a game with your right hand,
]and another with your left and the controls were kind of similar on both
]hands, then I for one would be very confused about the two directional
controllers.
]I think SEGA games in general (compared to Nintendo games) requires more
of
]attention to the game than to the controller itself.
Uhh... Robotron, Smash TV, Battle Zone, Cyber Sled, Virtua On...
All games with "kind of similar [controls] on both hands." ;) It would
be nice if game designers did have the option to let the player use both
directional controls in the same game... I could see that feature being
very useful in a 1st person mecha combat game.
Later,
Yupa
Zen Zenith
Troy D Radeke wrote:
>
> Well I think that Sega is just trying to get an analog controller out.
> An analog controller is a good idea and I think many games will
I agree. Sega said (And I qoute) "this isn't a "NiGHTS" controller".
Meaing it isn't just for NiGHTS.
Although I do find the cotroller helps me when playing NiGHTS quite a
lot... I can move much more smoothly.
Drew Holland
>
> :The problem with Sega's new control pad is that you can't use the d-pad AND
> :analog at the same time...not true with Nintendo's...
>
use the analog and digital controls at the same time becouse the
controller only allows one or the other.
Drew Holland
Charles Doane
I do like the 'analog' control, but I usually let my opponent have the
analog controller in two-player VS mode. I can do some really vicious
rebounding Paraloops with the digital controller that I can't pull off
with that analog one. Analog seems to have grace, but speed belongs to
digital. I usually use analog in one-player mode, though.
--
eppur si muove... 'and yet it does move'... Galileo,
after recanting his assertion of the Earth's motion.
Troy D Radeke
Well I think that Sega is just trying to get an analog controller out.
from it. I found some driving game on the PSX unbearable because there
was no gradient of control. On a real car you can make minor through
major course adjustments. On that game you couldn't. Anyways I think it
is good to have both analog and regular controllers. Maybe for Nights you
are right and it doesn't make sense--I haven't played it.
Troy
Marty Chinn
Carl-Henrik \"Kungen\" Skårstedt (ca...@funcom.com) wrote:
: It would have to be a very simple game to allow such a complicated control...
: I mean, if you are controlling one aspect of a game with your right hand,
: and another with your left and the controls were kind of similar on both
: hands, then I for one would be very confused about the two directional controllers.
: attention to the game than to the controller itself.
Seems to work for Virtual On, and Smash TV, as well as other games....
: --
: /Carl-Henrik Skårstedt
: -"If it was easy, then anyone with a cool
: haircut and an attitude could do it."
: /My publisher.
--
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Marty Chinn
shane sux (neif...@iglou.com) wrote:
: sigh. the multi-controller is totally useful and wonderful in Nights,
: you probably have no clue as to what analog control is, so you would
: not have noticed.... also, it was not just developed for use with
: Nights, several other games will use it (Dark Savior and Enemy Zero
: come to mind)...
Well since you know so much about Analog, then you should know it is only
used in walking in Nights. Flying makes no use of analog. It may be
easier to use than the d-pad but it makes no use of analog.
: ^_^ -neifirst
Marty Chinn
terrell gibbs (tgi...@bu.edu) wrote:
: In article <01bb995b$c5b57da0$8571...@jcbrick.concentric.net>, "Schmack
: Daddy" <jcb...@concentric.net> wrote:
: :The problem with Sega's new control pad is that you can't use the d-pad AND
: :analog at the same time...not true with Nintendo's...
: If you have 3 hands...
Uh i don't follow, what does three hands have to do with this? Just
because the N64 pad has three handles, that doesn't mean you need 3 hands
to use it. Think Terrell think...
Rob Leonardo
vids...@netcom.com (Marty Chinn) wrote:
>Well since you know so much about Analog, then you should know it is only
>used in walking in Nights. Flying makes no use of analog. It may be
>easier to use than the d-pad but it makes no use of analog.
>: ^_^ -neifirst
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Marty Chinn *** 50 Virtua Fighter 3 Picturs Now At Our Web ***
>Video Source PlayStation, Nintendo 64, Saturn, Imports
>973 Foxglove Dr. M-F: 9:30-6:00, Sa: 10:00-3:00 PST, Sun: Closed
>Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Mailing List, Ordering, and Preordering info at:
><408> 720-8575 Voice E-Mail: vids...@netcom.com
><408> 720-8576 FAX WWW : http://www.video-source.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Nights, analog is used for direction. You can fly in 360 degrees
as opposed to only 8 directions with the digital pad. Try to fly at a
15 or 30 degree angle with the digital pad and you'll see that you
can't, but with the analog pad it is pretty easy.
Rob Leonardo
Richard T Jordan
>Well I think that Sega is just trying to get an analog controller out.
>An analog controller is a good idea and I think many games will
benefit
>from it. I found some driving game on the PSX unbearable because
there
>was no gradient of control. On a real car you can make minor through
>major course adjustments. On that game you couldn't. Anyways I think
it
>is good to have both analog and regular controllers. Maybe for Nights
you
>are right and it doesn't make sense--I haven't played it.
A valid point. Sega bundles the analog controller with a high
quality game...in the consumers eyes not only are they getting a great
game and a great controller, but the analog lends to the "unique"
nature of this particular Saturn game. It is yet to be seen, however,
if the analog will get much support (The Mario paint mouse and
Bomberman 4-player multi-tap are examples....a surge of aps that
utilize these controllers, then not much more).
Jon Allegrezza
Unlike the N64 in which every
>game has been designed with the analog stick in mind.
Like KI Gold and MK Trilogy...oh, wait a minute...
I would think of more, but not many N64 games in general are coming to
mind, let alone ones that won't be using the analog.
Jon Allegrezza - Visit my Gaming Fan Art site at
http://www.tiac.net/users/heyimjon
John Chih-Wei Tang
Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<vidsourcD...@netcom.com>...
> Uh i don't follow, what does three hands have to do with this? Just
> because the N64 pad has three handles, that doesn't mean you need 3 hands
> to use it. Think Terrell think...
True, you don't need three hands to use both analog and digital D-pads at
the same time, though that would prove to be a difficult task for most
people. Think about it -- it's analogous to that rubbing your head and
stomach at the same time exercise. Sure, some people could do it quite
well, but many have difficulty. And yeah, games like Virtua-On and Smash TV
use two sticks, but they don't exactly require precision movement for the
thumb. All the actions in those two games essentially break down to
knee-jerk reactions using your entire arm. And heck, some people *STILL*
have trouble with that sort of control(however rare).
John
Marty Chinn
Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
: In Nights, analog is used for direction. You can fly in 360 degrees
: as opposed to only 8 directions with the digital pad. Try to fly at a
: 15 or 30 degree angle with the digital pad and you'll see that you
: can't, but with the analog pad it is pretty easy.
Funny, I can with the digital pad.
: Rob Leonardo
Carl-Henrik "Kungen" Skårstedt
> ]and another with your left and the controls were kind of similar on both
> ]hands, then I for one would be very confused about the two directional
> controllers.
> ]I think SEGA games in general (compared to Nintendo games) requires more of
> ]attention to the game than to the controller itself.
>
> All games with "kind of similar [controls] on both hands." ;) It would
> be nice if game designers did have the option to let the player use both
> directional controls in the same game... I could see that feature being
> very useful in a 1st person mecha combat game.
With the N64 you have a difficulty in reaching that many buttons if you
hold both D-Pads at the same time. It is true that SEGA is in a way limiting
control by setting the buttons on one hand and directions on the other.
You could probably fake it by using B-Y-Z-C for directions as well.
What games except helicopter/tank/robot fighting games would be possible
with 2 d-pads? (One being analog, the other digital).
Hanson
"John Chih-Wei Tang" <joh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote in article
><vidsourcD...@netcom.com>...
>> Uh i don't follow, what does three hands have to do with this? Just
>> because the N64 pad has three handles, that doesn't mean you need 3 hands
>
>> to use it. Think Terrell think...
>
>True, you don't need three hands to use both analog and digital D-pads at
>the same time, though that would prove to be a difficult task for most
>people.
Have you done studies? Read any studies? *Sniff sniff* -- I smell...
spurious assumption.
>Think about it -- it's analogous to that rubbing your head and
>stomach at the same time exercise. Sure, some people could do it quite
>well, but many have difficulty.
*Sniff* -- I smell it again.
>And yeah, games like Virtua-On and Smash TV
>use two sticks, but they don't exactly require precision movement for the
>thumb. All the actions in those two games essentially break down to
>knee-jerk reactions using your entire arm. And heck, some people *STILL*
>have trouble with that sort of control(however rare).
>
>John
There are spazzolas out there. Some people can't even handle a D-pad
alone. It happens. What boggles my mind is people making up crap
without a) empirical evidence or b) *any sort of proof whatsoever*.
Making spurious assumptions is the reason people started believing
that the Great Wall of China is the only man made structure visible
from the moon or that you shouldn't swim until 1 hour after eating.
Hanson
"Take your stinking paws off of me, you damn dirty ape!"
- George Taylor
terrell gibbs
In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com (Marty
Chinn) wrote:
:terrell gibbs (tgi...@bu.edu) wrote:
:: In article <01bb995b$c5b57da0$8571...@jcbrick.concentric.net>, "Schmack
:: Daddy" <jcb...@concentric.net> wrote:
:
:: :The problem with Sega's new control pad is that you can't use the d-pad AND
:: :analog at the same time...not true with Nintendo's...
:
:: If you have 3 hands...
:
:Uh i don't follow, what does three hands have to do with this? Just
:because the N64 pad has three handles, that doesn't mean you need 3 hands
:to use it. Think Terrell think...
OK, try this experiment. Put your left thumb on the D-Pad, your right
thumb on the A-pad, then try to press the buttons on the right side of the
pad.
The point is that both arrangements have their virtues--there is no design
that is perfect for all games. There are a handful of games (such as
Robotron) for two joypads are optimum, and you don't need anything else.
Most of those can be managed reasonably well using one directional pad and
a 4-button diamond (or conceivably you could turn the Saturn pad sideways
and use the 2 pads--it's a little awkward that way, but no more so than
games that require you to push multiple buttons simultaneously, so that
you have to put your fingers on top rather than your thumb). On the other
hand, I can see many options for game design that would use both pads
*and* all the buttons, which is easy with the Saturn design, but requires
a lot of awkward hand switching on the N64 pad (unless, of course, you
have 3 hands)..
terrell gibbs
:Well since you know so much about Analog, then you should know it is only
:used in walking in Nights. Flying makes no use of analog. It may be
:easier to use than the d-pad but it makes no use of analog.
It seems to me that I have 360 degree directional control with the A-pad,
but only 8-direction control with the D-pad, and I know that others have
had the same impression. Do you know for a fact that this is not true?
mario marcaida felarca
vids...@netcom.com (Marty Chinn) writes:
>Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In Nights, analog is used for direction. You can fly in 360 degrees
>: as opposed to only 8 directions with the digital pad. Try to fly at a
>: 15 or 30 degree angle with the digital pad and you'll see that you
>: can't, but with the analog pad it is pretty easy.
>Funny, I can with the digital pad.
Funny, you are really reaching now. The point Rob made is valid, not only
does the A-pad allow you full range of motion, it also allows you to control
rate at which direction change occurs. If you are going one direction, and
gently roll to another with the A-pad, you will get a slow turn, if you roll
the A-pad tighter or quicker, you will get a quicker change.
I know, you can also change directions with varying speed using the D-pad, but
the point is control, it is not as percise, not as variable in speed, and
not nearly as consistent.
Finally, one is able to fly at any angle using the D-pad, it would be
ridiculous for the game to not allow it since some people will obviously
not use the D-pad, but the argument Marty is that with the analog pad,
Nights can take any bearing off his current flight path...any of the 360
degrees, as opposed to having to move at a certain angle, then change paths
again (even ever so slightly or subtlely), and then again, to get on the
true heading you wanted.
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Marty Chinn *** 50 Virtua Fighter 3 Picturs Now At Our Web ***
--
"The only process you've mastered is the | Mario Felarca
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do it in the toilet!" -Ender Wiggin | http://jeeves.ncsa.uiuc.edu/~mfelarca
TUFFY LANGENBERGER
The Mario Monks (Wor...@theway.of.mario) wrote:
: It seems that the analog controller is further proof that Sega is
: a video game industry follower. The controllers real purpose is Sega's
: futile attempt to prove that their R&D is not as dilatory as Nintendo's.
Nintendo systems and controllers have the annoying tendancy to fall behind
in the state-of-the-art race rather quickly. For example, the NES was
quickly outmuscled by the SMS, the SNES was quickly outdone hardware-wise
by the Jag and 3DO, the Gameboy was quickly outdone by the GameGear, etc. etc.
Additionally, the games availible have always governed just what kind of
controller becomes standard. For example, the SNES controller came
with 6 buttons. Almost by sheer luck, that's exactly how many most fighting
games needed. So, when fighting games became increasingly popular, Sega's
6-button pad became more popular.
Another example of games governing controller popularity concerns the
light-gun craze. Sega and Nintendo both released and marketed their own
brands of guns. But, when few games appeared to support such controllers,
both bombed miserably.
: We are sure the Sega suits were very worried when they first saw the
: greatest game ever created and said to themselves, "Nintendo has an analog
: controller, so we have to have one. Who care if we don't have any games to
: use it with.Just make one!". How pathetic.
Support for a new controller is often limited. In the Saturn's case,
Nights supports the pad, but so does Rally, Daytona and PD1/2.
And, since the pad isn't an exclusive item (like a steering wheel, which
would be hard to play something like Guardian Heroes with), it isn't as if
you're losing out by buying one.
: Unlike the greatest game ever
: created in which the use ofthe analog controller enriches the gameplay
: experience, (you couldn't play the greatest game ever created without it)
: the analog controller in Nights is just a gimmick.
The whole point behind getting a new controller is to improve CONTROL.
Perhaps you feel that Nights isn't improved sufficiently to warrent such
a controller, but there are already games that would be improved with
analog rather than digital control.
: But what did you expect
: from a 32-bit generation that is saturated with sterile ideas. The only
: leader in this industry is Nintendo and our God, Mario. Once you all
: except this fact, you will all be on the path to reaching a higher plateau
: of video gameplaying. May Mario bless you all on Sept. 29!
I think it's about time that analog control made it to the home platforms.
After enjoying its benefits on my Apple //e so many years ago, I'm surprised
it took so long to gain acceptance. However, I think it's somewhat ironic
in that while Nintendo may have developed its own analog pad first,
Sega's pad is the one that made it to American shores first (not counting
imports, naturally). Who is the leader and who is the follower in this case?
Nintendo certainly has a good R&D department, but they tend to be outdone
very quickly.
If you want to discuss the games themselves, that's a whole other thread.
But in terms of hardware itself, Nintendo never stays the leader for long.
Thomas R. Oakley
> > Well I think that Sega is just trying to get an analog controller out.
> > An analog controller is a good idea and I think many games will
>
> Meaing it isn't just for NiGHTS.
I use it to play Panzar Dragoon. It takes a little getting used to, but
it works much better.
-tro
-----
A multinomial distribution is the joint distribution for the random
variables, Y1, Y2,......Yk, the numbers of elements in a random sample of
size n that belong to each of the k classes of the multinomial
population, Yj being the number that belong to the jth class.
Justin Nation
In rec.games.video.nintendo terrell gibbs <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote:
: In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com (Marty
------------
Uhh.... I think you are missing the point here Mr. Gibbs. The honorable
Mr. Chinn was telling you that the game makes no use of ANALOG. Now... lets
take a moment to analyze what an ANALOG joystick does. While it does niftily
go 360 degrees around, that is actually the more minor of its functions. The
primary advantage ANALOG joysticks have over DIGITAL joysticks (sorta like
those groovy Atari 2600 puppies) is that they are sensitive to degrees of
input.
The best example for this is playing any sort of simulation game, particularly
driving or flying. With a DIGITAL joystick when you push right... you just go
right at some really random rate. To navigate a tight turn you can hold right
the whole time, but small turns require you to jerkily pump right to keep from
careening off the track. Now, with the ANALOG stick all turns are much easier.
Why? Because on the big turn you can cut hard like always, but on the smaller
turns you just push the stick over a little bit... making your rate of turning
lower the less you push the joystick over.
So now... if flying in Nights uses the anolog control in flying you will be
able to greatly alter your flying speeds depending on how hard you push on
the stick. If it isn't using analog, while you have a full 360 degrees of
movement, you will have no such speed control. Thus, another poor soul
comes to understand the ways of analog.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Justin Nation (jna...@smart.net) http://www.smart.net/~jnation/
"In fact I'd rather have this bottle in front of me than...
A FRONTAL LOBOTOMY!"
Yuji Higaki
John Chih-Wei Tang (joh...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: True, you don't need three hands to use both analog and digital D-pads at
: the same time, though that would prove to be a difficult task for most
: stomach at the same time exercise. Sure, some people could do it quite
One of the most interesting controller designs I have used is the Negcon
controller, made by Namco. It has a digital D-Pad, but it twists in the
middle. (The twisting is analog, of course). I've only used it for
driving games, but I'd imagine it would be nice for flight sims (D-Pad
for changing altitude/turning - twisting for banking).
I was wondering if anyone has bought an adapter and used the Negcon
on the Saturn. I would like to try Rally with my Negcon. (Of course
even if it did work, you probably can't calibrate it).
--
Yuji Garett Higaki Sun Microsystems
cab...@rescomp.stanford.edu yuji....@eng.sun.com
Department of Electrical Engineering Networking Products
Stanford Univeristy
Marty Chinn
Carl-Henrik \"Kungen\" Skårstedt (ca...@funcom.com) wrote:
: With the N64 you have a difficulty in reaching that many buttons if you
: hold both D-Pads at the same time. It is true that SEGA is in a way limiting
: control by setting the buttons on one hand and directions on the other.
: You could probably fake it by using B-Y-Z-C for directions as well.
: What games except helicopter/tank/robot fighting games would be possible
: with 2 d-pads? (One being analog, the other digital).
With the N64 pad you have two options. If you use the d-pad and the
analog pad, you have 2 buttons, possible four. The two are L shift, Z,
and then the possibility is A and B. A and B are close enough to be
within reach to use. If this will ever be done it is unknown. Then there
is using the analog pad and the C d-pad which i beleive one game is
actually using. The C d-pad is on the left side by A and B and its not
connected like a d-pad, but it is four buttons you can use as a d-pad
since all d-pads are four buttons anyways, so this would give you, A, B,
Z, and R-shift.
: --
: /Carl-Henrik Skårstedt
: -"If it was easy, then anyone with a cool
: haircut and an attitude could do it."
: /My publisher.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty Chinn *** 50 Virtua Fighter 3 Picturs Now At Our Web ***
PsychoKick
In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com says...
>
>Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: In Nights, analog is used for direction. You can fly in 360 degrees
>: as opposed to only 8 directions with the digital pad. Try to fly at a
>: 15 or 30 degree angle with the digital pad and you'll see that you
>: can't, but with the analog pad it is pretty easy.
>
>Funny, I can with the digital pad.
No, you can't, unless you continually change the pressure between two
of the eight compass directions. With an analog pad you just press in the
direction you want to go, at any angle, and hold it. For a digital pad, you
must continually tap between two extremes. Not what I call intuitive control.
--
-PsychoKick
http://www.panix.com/~wyoon
School of Hard Nox and other chaos...
Richard T Jordan
>> Uh i don't follow, what does three hands have to do with this? Just
>> because the N64 pad has three handles, that doesn't mean you need 3
hands
>
>> to use it. Think Terrell think...
>
>True, you don't need three hands to use both analog and digital D-pads
at
>the same time, though that would prove to be a difficult task for most
>people. Think about it -- it's analogous to that rubbing your head and
>stomach at the same time exercise. Sure, some people could do it quite
>well, but many have difficulty. And yeah, games like Virtua-On and
Smash TV
>use two sticks, but they don't exactly require precision movement for
the
>thumb. All the actions in those two games essentially break down to
>knee-jerk reactions using your entire arm. And heck, some people
*STILL*
>have trouble with that sort of control(however rare).
Games such as Cybersled (The arcade version, not that horrible PSX
version), Virtua-on, Smash-TV, and all those other 2 joystick games
would not be the only ones to benefit from 2 directional controls. How
about games that would benefit from moving your charecter and moving
the weapon/gun turrent at the same time? How about a Zelda64-ish type
game where you could move your charecter and move your sword manually
at the same time? (I know that you may or may not be able to do this in
Zelda64, it just makes for a good 3D game example).
Some people may have a hard time with 2 controls at once, but then
again some people just have trouble with the whole analog idea. But
for the most part, many gamers would have no trouble at all adjusting
to a new control concept.
Louis Cappitelli
Boy, this is dumb. Who cares if either of the systems have analog
controller. If they both have it, great! If not, who cares.
Personally, I think many people have done quit well since 1985 without
an analog controller.
---------
On 1 Sep 1996 17:20:33 GMT, The Mario Monks <Wor...@theway.of.mario>
wrote:
> After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
>unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
>It serves no purpose within the game; you don't need it. Since Nights is
>NOT a 3-D game, and the fact that you are always constrained by a
>time limit, causes the analog controller to become defunct. The player has
>to be constantly moving quickly. You have no time to slow down and
>explore, and no enemies to evade, thus moving leisurely is pointless. The
>analog control becomes useless.
> It seems that the analog controller is further proof that Sega is
>a video game industry follower. The controllers real purpose is Sega's
>futile attempt to prove that their R&D is not as dilatory as Nintendo's.
>We are sure the Sega suits were very worried when they first saw the
>greatest game ever created and said to themselves, "Nintendo has an analog
>controller, so we have to have one. Who care if we don't have any games to
>use it with.Just make one!". How pathetic. Unlike the greatest game ever
>created in which the use ofthe analog controller enriches the gameplay
>experience, (you couldn't play the greatest game ever created without it)
>the analog controller in Nights is just a gimmick. But what did you expect
>from a 32-bit generation that is saturated with sterile ideas. The only
>leader in this industry is Nintendo and our God, Mario. Once you all
>except this fact, you will all be on the path to reaching a higher plateau
>of video gameplaying. May Mario bless you all on Sept. 29!
>
>
> The Mario Monks
>
Rob Leonardo
jna...@smart.net (Justin Nation) wrote:
Are you saying that full 360 degrees of movement is not analog? There
isn't a law that says for something to be analog it must have speed
control.
It is rather pointless to say that the flying sequences make no use of
analog because it is obviously using analog directional control. I
agree that it isn't using all of the features of the pad like the
speed control or the analog triggers, but to say that it does not use
analog at all is just plain false. Maybe Marty should have made it
more clear that the game didn't utilize all of the features of the
analog pad in his original post.
Rob Leonardo
Rob Leonardo
vids...@netcom.com (Marty Chinn) wrote:
>Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In Nights, analog is used for direction. You can fly in 360 degrees
>: as opposed to only 8 directions with the digital pad. Try to fly at a
>: 15 or 30 degree angle with the digital pad and you'll see that you
>: can't, but with the analog pad it is pretty easy.
>Funny, I can with the digital pad.
>: Rob Leonardo
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Marty Chinn *** 50 Virtua Fighter 3 Picturs Now At Our Web ***
>Video Source PlayStation, Nintendo 64, Saturn, Imports
>973 Foxglove Dr. M-F: 9:30-6:00, Sa: 10:00-3:00 PST, Sun: Closed
>Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Mailing List, Ordering, and Preordering info at:
><408> 720-8575 Voice E-Mail: vids...@netcom.com
><408> 720-8576 FAX WWW : http://www.video-source.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I went back to play Nights after I read this, and I still can't
seem to fly at a 15 or 30 degree angle with the digital pad like I can
with the analog pad. 45 degree increments on the digital pad is what
I can only seem to do. If I want to make Nights fly at an angle other
than a 45 degree increment I have to keep on alternating between 0 and
45 degrees. So, what am I doing wrong?
Rob Leonardo
Daniel Jevons
In article <50cgl1$c...@cabernet.niagara.com>, The Mario Monks
<Wor...@theway.of.mario> wrote:
> After completing Nights (in less than two hours) we, The
> unassuming Mario Monks, found absolutely no use for the analog controller.
> It serves no purpose within the game; you don't need it. Since Nights is
> NOT a 3-D game, and the fact that you are always constrained by a
> time limit, causes the analog controller to become defunct. The player has
> to be constantly moving quickly. You have no time to slow down and
> explore, and no enemies to evade, thus moving leisurely is pointless. The
> analog control becomes useless.
> It seems that the analog controller is further proof that Sega is
> a video game industry follower. The controllers real purpose is Sega's
> futile attempt to prove that their R&D is not as dilatory as Nintendo's.
> We are sure the Sega suits were very worried when they first saw the
> greatest game ever created and said to themselves, "Nintendo has an analog
> controller, so we have to have one. Who care if we don't have any games to
> use it with.Just make one!". How pathetic. Unlike the greatest game ever
> created in which the use ofthe analog controller enriches the gameplay
> experience, (you couldn't play the greatest game ever created without it)
> the analog controller in Nights is just a gimmick. But what did you expect
> from a 32-bit generation that is saturated with sterile ideas. The only
> leader in this industry is Nintendo and our God, Mario. Once you all
> except this fact, you will all be on the path to reaching a higher plateau
> of video gameplaying. May Mario bless you all on Sept. 29!
>
>
> The Mario Monks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You stupid cocks! The analogue control in NiGHTS lets you perform
different sizes of loops, as well as giving more than just eight
directions of movement, but then you probably wouldn't know that. The idea
of the game is to score points, not just finish it, and the analogue
controller helps the control of the character at high speeds a lot.
And on the subject of Super Mario 64, I bought it on the same day as
NiGHTS and played it non-stop for two weekends. I got all 120 stars and
haven't touched the fucking thing for 2 months. NiGHTS, however, has been
played more than anything else, and still is. So stuff your "analogue
controller is shit bollocks" up your arse.
THE PINK FLOYD
terrell gibbs
In article <50ipd7$3...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Cyb...@ix.netcom.com(Richard T Jordan) wrote:
: A valid point. Sega bundles the analog controller with a high
:quality game...in the consumers eyes not only are they getting a great
:game and a great controller, but the analog lends to the "unique"
:nature of this particular Saturn game. It is yet to be seen, however,
:if the analog will get much support (The Mario paint mouse and
:Bomberman 4-player multi-tap are examples....a surge of aps that
:utilize these controllers, then not much more).
In the end, it comes down to whether there are general advantages to
analog control that apply to a wide variety of game types. I think that
there are. They include:
Emulation of vehicle controls that are naturally analog (e.g. steering
wheels and aircraft joysticks).
The possibility of establishing a 1-to-1 correspondence between analog pad
position and screen position, so that you can move a cursor rapidly to a
particular screen location (in contrast, an 8 directional d-pad must be
"driven" to a particular position on the screen, which is inherently a
slow process). This allows an A-pad to emulate a mouse or a light gun much
better than a D-pad can.
True 360 degree directional control instead of being limited to the
cardinal 8 directions.
Velocity control based upon amount of pressure.
William Harlow
Richard T Jordan wrote:
>
> >Well I think that Sega is just trying to get an analog controller out.
>
> >An analog controller is a good idea and I think many games will
> >from it. I found some driving game on the PSX unbearable because
> there
> >was no gradient of control. On a real car you can make minor through
> >major course adjustments. On that game you couldn't. Anyways I think
> it
> >is good to have both analog and regular controllers. Maybe for Nights
> you
> >are right and it doesn't make sense--I haven't played it.
>
> quality game...in the consumers eyes not only are they getting a great
> game and a great controller, but the analog lends to the "unique"
> nature of this particular Saturn game. It is yet to be seen, however,
> if the analog will get much support (The Mario paint mouse and
> Bomberman 4-player multi-tap are examples....a surge of aps that
> utilize these controllers, then not much more).
Hey, the analog controller isn't essential for Nights,
but it's a cool bonus for the money. It also makes Sega
Rally a lot more fun. I have an Arcade Racer too, so at
least both players get precise control in split-screen
competition.
Bill
Marty Chinn
Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Are you saying that full 360 degrees of movement is not analog? There
: isn't a law that says for something to be analog it must have speed
: control.
Its not analog by that definition. Analog is a gradual change as you
increase the distance. Digital is a consistant change as you increase
movement. Now rotating a controller around will always have the same
cosistance of movement for every degree you move. However analog say in
walking in Nights, where the farther you move forward, the faster you
move, as well as in Mario or in Sega Rally where the more you turn the
faster you make the turn where as with digital you would be turning at
the same incriment. Turning a 360 doesn't get any faster, its the same
constant movement. While the controller makes it easier to turn that
doesn't mean its analog, its just easier to rotate than the d-pad. Thats
like saying a joystick is analog cuz its easier to rotate than a pad.
Marty Chinn
terrell gibbs (tgi...@bu.edu) wrote:
: In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com (Marty
: Chinn) wrote:
: :Well since you know so much about Analog, then you should know it is only
: :used in walking in Nights. Flying makes no use of analog. It may be
: :easier to use than the d-pad but it makes no use of analog.
: It seems to me that I have 360 degree directional control with the A-pad,
: but only 8-direction control with the D-pad, and I know that others have
: had the same impression. Do you know for a fact that this is not true?
Shrug, I know for a fact that i can do everything i can on the d-pad that
i can with the analog pad. Go any direction I want to.
Marty Chinn
terrell gibbs (tgi...@bu.edu) wrote:
: The point is that both arrangements have their virtues--there is no design
: that is perfect for all games. There are a handful of games (such as
: Robotron) for two joypads are optimum, and you don't need anything else.
: Most of those can be managed reasonably well using one directional pad and
: a 4-button diamond (or conceivably you could turn the Saturn pad sideways
: and use the 2 pads--it's a little awkward that way, but no more so than
: games that require you to push multiple buttons simultaneously, so that
: you have to put your fingers on top rather than your thumb). On the other
: hand, I can see many options for game design that would use both pads
: *and* all the buttons, which is easy with the Saturn design, but requires
: a lot of awkward hand switching on the N64 pad (unless, of course, you
: have 3 hands)..
The point is the N64 pad is more versatile in design than the Saturn
analog pad. Thats the whole point. With the Saturn pad it was designed
for basically 3 different possibilities where as the N64 pad can be used
in 4 different possible ways. You could use digital and analog with 2-4
buttons, or you can use digital with 8 buttons, or two digital with 4
buttons, or the analog with the left hand digital and 4 buttons.
John Chih-Wei Tang
Hanson <fat...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<322d486a...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> There are spazzolas out there. Some people can't even handle a D-pad
> alone. It happens. What boggles my mind is people making up crap
> without a) empirical evidence or b) *any sort of proof whatsoever*.
> Making spurious assumptions is the reason people started believing
> that the Great Wall of China is the only man made structure visible
> from the moon or that you shouldn't swim until 1 hour after eating.
I never said what I was offering was cold, hard fact. They are merely my
observations, and I presented them as such. Since when did a casual opinion
require empirical evidence? Besides, if my opinion is full of crap, as you
seem to imply, then perhaps it's good to know that this crap makes the
usenet interesting, eh? Hell, this crap even spurs conversation. Sheesh.
John
Rob Leonardo
vids...@netcom.com (Marty Chinn) wrote:
>Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: Are you saying that full 360 degrees of movement is not analog? There
>: isn't a law that says for something to be analog it must have speed
>: control.
>Its not analog by that definition. Analog is a gradual change as you
>increase the distance. Digital is a consistant change as you increase
>movement. Now rotating a controller around will always have the same
>cosistance of movement for every degree you move. However analog say in
>walking in Nights, where the farther you move forward, the faster you
>move, as well as in Mario or in Sega Rally where the more you turn the
>faster you make the turn where as with digital you would be turning at
>the same incriment. Turning a 360 doesn't get any faster, its the same
>constant movement. While the controller makes it easier to turn that
>doesn't mean its analog, its just easier to rotate than the d-pad. Thats
>like saying a joystick is analog cuz its easier to rotate than a pad.
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Marty Chinn *** 50 Virtua Fighter 3 Picturs Now At Our Web ***
>Video Source PlayStation, Nintendo 64, Saturn, Imports
>973 Foxglove Dr. M-F: 9:30-6:00, Sa: 10:00-3:00 PST, Sun: Closed
>Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Mailing List, Ordering, and Preordering info at:
><408> 720-8575 Voice E-Mail: vids...@netcom.com
><408> 720-8576 FAX WWW : http://www.video-source.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The point I am trying to make is that you can make Nights fly at any
degree from 0 degrees to 360 degrees with the analog pad. If I
wanted, I could make him/her fly at 5 degrees, 36 degrees, 333
degrees, or whatever. Isn't this analog? I am not limited to only 0
degrees, 45 degrees, 90 degrees, 135 degrees and so on as with the
digital pad.
Can we talk about something else now? How about: Is Nights a 3-d game
or a 2-d game?
Rob Leonardo
Schmack Daddy
Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<vidsourcD...@netcom.com>...
> terrell gibbs (tgi...@bu.edu) wrote:
> : In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com (Marty
> : Chinn) wrote:
>
> : :Well since you know so much about Analog, then you should know it is
only
> : :used in walking in Nights. Flying makes no use of analog. It may be
> : :easier to use than the d-pad but it makes no use of analog.
>
> : It seems to me that I have 360 degree directional control with the
A-pad,
> : but only 8-direction control with the D-pad, and I know that others
have
> : had the same impression. Do you know for a fact that this is not true?
>
> Shrug, I know for a fact that i can do everything i can on the d-pad that
> i can with the analog pad. Go any direction I want to.
> --
I agree with this...I can move just as well, and in any direction, with the
d-pad as with the analog pad.
Marty Chinn
Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
: The point I am trying to make is that you can make Nights fly at any
: degree from 0 degrees to 360 degrees with the analog pad. If I
: wanted, I could make him/her fly at 5 degrees, 36 degrees, 333
: degrees, or whatever. Isn't this analog? I am not limited to only 0
: degrees, 45 degrees, 90 degrees, 135 degrees and so on as with the
: digital pad.
Didn't you bother reading my post? I explained why its not analog....
: Rob Leonardo
Kenichiro Tanaka
> Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : Are you saying that full 360 degrees of movement is not analog? There
> : isn't a law that says for something to be analog it must have speed
> : control.
>
> Its not analog by that definition. Analog is a gradual change as you
> increase the distance. Digital is a consistant change as you increase
> movement. Now rotating a controller around will always have the same
> cosistance of movement for every degree you move. However analog say in
> walking in Nights, where the farther you move forward, the faster you
> move, as well as in Mario or in Sega Rally where the more you turn the
> faster you make the turn where as with digital you would be turning at
> the same incriment. Turning a 360 doesn't get any faster, its the same
> constant movement. While the controller makes it easier to turn that
> doesn't mean its analog, its just easier to rotate than the d-pad. Thats
> like saying a joystick is analog cuz its easier to rotate than a pad.
This is, quite simply, wrong. When you talk about a controller being
"analog," you're referring to the fact that it has a continuous range of
values along a dimension, as opposed to discreet values. Even if the Sega
controller had just on/off for velocity, it would still be an analog
controller if you had a full 360 degrees of motion. The rate of change has
nothing to do with "analog" and "digital." It's the specifiable values
that makes a difference--analog has infinite resolution, digital does not.
(And we'll ignore the issue of "faked" analog for now. As I understand it,
the N64 controller uses a 128x128 matrix but the resolution is fine enough
that it's equivalent to an analog controller for the applications it's
going to be used for. I don't know if the Sega controller is truly
analog.)
In Nights, you can point Nights in any direction. (As a practical matter,
it's probably limited to 64 directions or something, but again, this is
quibbling.) It doesn't matter if you can't control his speed. Please go
look up "analog" before you comment further.
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Marty Chinn *** 50 Virtua Fighter 3 Picturs Now At Our Web ***
> Video Source PlayStation, Nintendo 64, Saturn, Imports
> 973 Foxglove Dr. M-F: 9:30-6:00, Sa: 10:00-3:00 PST, Sun: Closed
> Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Mailing List, Ordering, and Preordering info at:
> <408> 720-8575 Voice E-Mail: vids...@netcom.com
> <408> 720-8576 FAX WWW : http://www.video-source.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Kenichiro Tanaka -- tan...@maya.com |
| http://www.maya.com/Local/tanaka/ |
terrell gibbs
:Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
:
:: In Nights, analog is used for direction. You can fly in 360 degrees
:: as opposed to only 8 directions with the digital pad. Try to fly at a
:: 15 or 30 degree angle with the digital pad and you'll see that you
:: can't, but with the analog pad it is pretty easy.
:
:Funny, I can with the digital pad.
:
Really? How? Think, Marty. A digital pad is electronically only capable of
generating 8 different signals, because it only has 4 switches and a
maximum of two can be triggered at any one time. Digital logic, remember?
Directionally, that corresponds to 45 degree increments. So you cannot
move in a straight line at any other angle, although you might be able to
approximate it with a stairstep.
Chris Fisher
In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>,
Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Its not analog by that definition. Analog is a gradual change as you
>increase the distance. Digital is a consistant change as you increase
Thats a mighty funny definition of "analog" you have there. No wonder
people have so much trouble understanding your ramblings, you keep using
word meanings from a very broken dictionary.
chris
--
zenmoo: znmoo nemo oom e mn zeoo mneoo nemz mo ozen omne moo ze
(NeXTmail accepted) FreeBSD/NeXTstep/OSF/VSTa/Ultrix/SunOS/
URLs: www.nsa.org www.unix.org Linux/Unixware/Sco/Solaris/MicrosoftOS*
Yuji Higaki
: : isn't a law that says for something to be analog it must have speed
: : control.
: Its not analog by that definition. Analog is a gradual change as you
I'm sure Marty means well, but I think he needs a lesson in basic
electronics. I'm sure you're reading this, Marty, so here is a _very_
basic introduction to analog versus digital.
Disclaimer: I am an engineer, not a teacher. :)
Imangine your favorite song playing on the radio. If you're familiar
with waveforms, you know that the waveform for your song (if you could
see it on a scope) would be a bunch of squiggly lines going across the
screen. This is what we call an analog signal. Now, use your
imagination a little more and try to freeze that waveform for a
second. You'll notice that the squiggly line is a continuous squiggly
line, with every point from the minimum amplitude up to the maximum
amplitude represented. It's quite amazing when you think about it
because just between 0 and 5, you can have an infinite number of
values, if you add infinite numbers after the decimal point.
Now let's pretend we want to feed your favorite song to a computer.
I don't know about your computer, but I have a digital computer
that processes 1's and 0's. In order for the computer to understand
the analog signal which forms your favorite song, we would have to
change it to 1's and 0's. Now, the 1's and 0's that we choose to
represent the extremely complex waveform of your song is only a
best approximation.
This is the difference between a digital system and an analog
system. The analog system has all possible values in a range,
while the digial system is restricted to discrete values.
In the case of computers, we have a _binary_ digital system,
where all values are restricted to either 1 or 0.
Now to end this long winded little primer (sorry for the
length), Nights utilizes the analog function of the stick by
allowing you to choose angles other than 0, 45, 90, 135, etc.,
that the digital pad is restricted to. With the analog stick,
you can choose to fly at an angle of 13 degrees, if you wish.
Conclusion: Marty is correct in saying that flying speed
is not an analog function in Nights (as it is in Mario), but
he is clearly wrong when he says that the digital pad can
reach all directions that an analog pad can.
Richard T Jordan
>Conclusion: Marty is correct in saying that flying speed
>is not an analog function in Nights (as it is in Mario), but
>he is clearly wrong when he says that the digital pad can
>reach all directions that an analog pad can.
You're correct about the analog controller's range of motion, but I
think Marty may have been refering to digital pad controlled rotation
that doesn't involve any movement on the digital pad except one. What
I mean is lets say you press away on your controller (The left arrow)
and your charecter begins to rotate counter-clockwise. Press the right
and he begins to rotate clockwise. That may have been what he was
thinking of when he was saying digital controllers can do 360 degrees
of movement. But even in light of this fact, analog controllers are
far better for faster rotation and move complex movement in games.
terrell gibbs
:Rob Leonardo (robl...@netcom.com) wrote:
:
:: Are you saying that full 360 degrees of movement is not analog? There
:: isn't a law that says for something to be analog it must have speed
:: control.
:
:Its not analog by that definition. Analog is a gradual change as you
:increase the distance. Digital is a consistant change as you increase
:movement. Now rotating a controller around will always have the same
:cosistance of movement for every degree you move. However analog say in
:walking in Nights, where the farther you move forward, the faster you
:move, as well as in Mario or in Sega Rally where the more you turn the
:faster you make the turn where as with digital you would be turning at
:the same incriment. Turning a 360 doesn't get any faster, its the same
:constant movement. While the controller makes it easier to turn that
:doesn't mean its analog, its just easier to rotate than the d-pad. Thats
:like saying a joystick is analog cuz its easier to rotate than a pad.
:
Actually, analog simply means that the signal is a continuous variable,
rather than one of a fixed number of discrete values. With respect to a
joystick/pad-type controller, it means that instead of getting a signal
from 4 switches, defining only 8 possible positions, the system gets an
X-Y signal, defining the precise position of the joystick. Analog
joysticks have been used in computer games in a variety of ways for years.
The main virtues of an analog stick are:
1. Being able to define more orientations than the cardinal 8 of the
digital joystick--an advantage exploited by Nights in both the walking and
flying scenes.
2. Being able to move a cursor directly to a specific point on the screen.
For example, it is possible to draw with an analog control, but nearly
impossible with a digital one.
3. Being able to determine, not only the orientation of the control from
the center point, but also the angle of deviation, which can be used (for
example) to determine velocity of movement--an advantage exploited by
Nights in the walking scenes.
It is silly to insist that only (3) is analog control, because all 3 of
these features are possible only with an analog controller.
Evan
Kenichiro Tanaka wrote:
>
> This is, quite simply, wrong. When you talk about a controller being
> "analog," you're referring to the fact that it has a continuous range of
> values along a dimension, as opposed to discreet values. Even if the Sega
> controller had just on/off for velocity, it would still be an analog
> controller if you had a full 360 degrees of motion. The rate of change has
> nothing to do with "analog" and "digital." It's the specifiable values
> that makes a difference--analog has infinite resolution, digital does not.
> (And we'll ignore the issue of "faked" analog for now. As I understand it,
> the N64 controller uses a 128x128 matrix but the resolution is fine enough
> that it's equivalent to an analog controller for the applications it's
> going to be used for. I don't know if the Sega controller is truly
> analog.)
>
> In Nights, you can point Nights in any direction. (As a practical matter,
> it's probably limited to 64 directions or something, but again, this is
> quibbling.) It doesn't matter if you can't control his speed. Please go
> look up "analog" before you comment further.
Has anyone tried using the analog controller with Wing Arms? I have,
and when you go to the controller options it assumes you are using the
mission stick. While flying, you have analog control Try it!
-Evan
Van Hoang Nguyen
In article <322F7E...@pacbell.net> Evan <ev...@pacbell.net> writes:
>Has anyone tried using the analog controller with Wing Arms? I have,
>and when you go to the controller options it assumes you are using the
>mission stick. While flying, you have analog control Try it!
Works with Sega Rally too. It is really sensitive though, so it takes some
getting used to. But once you do, you can make those slides much sharper.
Great pad...
Van
Andrew Ryan Chang
>: degree from 0 degrees to 360 degrees with the analog pad. If I
>: wanted, I could make him/her fly at 5 degrees, 36 degrees, 333
>: degrees, or whatever. Isn't this analog? I am not limited to only 0
>: degrees, 45 degrees, 90 degrees, 135 degrees and so on as with the
>: digital pad.
>
>Didn't you bother reading my post? I explained why its not analog....
I think he _doesn't_ mean roll around in a 360-degree loop, he
means picking an arbitrary angle. A D-pad like the standard Saturn pad
has 8 directions, no? A truly analog pad has an infinite number. The
NiGHTs pad *probably* has 128 or 256 directions available, but I feel the
need to point out that both numbers are _greater_ than 8.
--
"_Johann Sebastian Flathead:_ [...] His Symphony #981, the so-called Infinite
Symphony, contained over 60,000 movements; over the course of its only perfor-
mance, several members of the orchestra retired and were replaced by their
children or grandchildren." -Encyclopedia Frobozzica.
Ghaleon
When using the Analog with Sega Rally, on the option screen, turn the
steering to "slow". It will dull the ultra sensitivity of the A-pad,
and it will work perfect!! I found that the normal setting, had me fish
tailing all over the track. It will work better on any driving game, if
it had a setting to adjust the steering response. Works great on Cyber
Speedway too.
-- Ghaleon
Visit Ghaleon's Sega Saturn News Page
* News and Previews updated daily *
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/4558
terrell gibbs
:In rec.games.video.nintendo terrell gibbs <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote:
:: In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com (Marty
:: Chinn) wrote:
::
:: :Well since you know so much about Analog, then you should know it is only
:: :used in walking in Nights. Flying makes no use of analog. It may be
:: :easier to use than the d-pad but it makes no use of analog.
::
:: It seems to me that I have 360 degree directional control with the A-pad,
:: but only 8-direction control with the D-pad, and I know that others have
:: had the same impression. Do you know for a fact that this is not true?
:
:------------
: Uhh.... I think you are missing the point here Mr. Gibbs. The honorable
:Mr. Chinn was telling you that the game makes no use of ANALOG.
I think that this is silly. It is doing something that an analog
controller can do, and that a digital controller cannot, namely providing
360 degree (as opposed to 8-direction) directional control. How can this
reasonably be said to be making no use of analog?
terrell gibbs
:terrell gibbs (tgi...@bu.edu) wrote:
:: In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com (Marty
:: Chinn) wrote:
:
:: :Well since you know so much about Analog, then you should know it is only
:: :used in walking in Nights. Flying makes no use of analog. It may be
:: :easier to use than the d-pad but it makes no use of analog.
:
:: It seems to me that I have 360 degree directional control with the A-pad,
:: but only 8-direction control with the D-pad, and I know that others have
:: had the same impression. Do you know for a fact that this is not true?
:
:Shrug, I know for a fact that i can do everything i can on the d-pad that
:i can with the analog pad. Go any direction I want to.
I'm sure *you* can. And I imagine that you can take all kinds of curves in
a driving game by tapping the D-pad at various rates. Some people become
extraordinarily skilled at this, but it is not the same as using a true
analog controller. Similarly, you can go in any direction with the digital
pad in NiGHTS, but to go in any direction other than the cardinal 45
degree increments, you have to keep switching back and forth (although by
now, this is probably so intuitive for you that you aren't even aware of
it), while with the A-pad, you simply point the pad in whatever direction
you want to go. The point is that NiGHTS *does* make use of the analog pad
to provide 360 degree control, even though you can get by without
it--especially if you are already highly skilled at the odd manipulations
required to simulate analog control with a digital pad. Remember, Marty,
you are not representative. Being a professional in the game business, you
get a lot more practice than most people, and perhaps you even have more
native talent. But you have to beware of assuming that the things that you
find easy will also be easy for the casual player.
terrell gibbs
:The point is the N64 pad is more versatile in design than the Saturn
:analog pad. Thats the whole point. With the Saturn pad it was designed
:for basically 3 different possibilities where as the N64 pad can be used
:in 4 different possible ways. You could use digital and analog with 2-4
:buttons, or you can use digital with 8 buttons, or two digital with 4
:buttons, or the analog with the left hand digital and 4 buttons.
Well, versatility is as versatility does, and the number of ways it can be
used depends upon how you count. After all, the most "versatile" control
of all is the computer keyboard, but one of the major reasons I prefer
console games to computer games is that all of the controls are
conveniently accessible at once without having to move my hands around. No
design is going to be perfect for every purpose. But the Saturn pad has
the advantage that you can reach every control from the standard grip,
which means that you have more controls available to you at a given time
than with any other pad.
Marty Chinn
terrell gibbs (tgi...@bu.edu) wrote:
: Well, versatility is as versatility does, and the number of ways it can be
: used depends upon how you count. After all, the most "versatile" control
: of all is the computer keyboard, but one of the major reasons I prefer
: console games to computer games is that all of the controls are
: conveniently accessible at once without having to move my hands around. No
: design is going to be perfect for every purpose. But the Saturn pad has
: the advantage that you can reach every control from the standard grip,
: which means that you have more controls available to you at a given time
: than with any other pad.
However Dark Saviors kills your argument. In that game there are times
wher eyou have to move the camera while you're moving, tell me how you're
going to do that with that kind of layout. With the N64 pad, whatever two
handles you grip, its going to feel like your grabbing two ends of a
controller, thats how they designed it, so you wouldn't get that
different feel that you're talking about.
Marty Chinn
Chris Fisher (ch...@vespucci.iquest.com) wrote:
: I for one hate the n64 pad. Im sick of stupid controllers that FORCE you
: to play with your thumbs. How completely inane. The only reason they are
: made this way is so game companies can sell you "special" fighter sticks.
: A good example is vf2 on the saturn; how exactly does one pull off
: gaurd+kick moves with a thumb? Why the answer is simple: "You buy the
: fighter stick." I don't think so. At least with the sega pad I can still
: play without being totally forced to use my thumbs.
Fighting games are not the heart of video games. Face it, video games
have a broad range of different games and not all games will work with a
joystick or feel as well to the player. a Pad is generally more universal
for all types of games and appeal to all types of people where as a stick
doesn't.
: chris
: --
: zenmoo: znmoo nemo oom e mn zeoo mneoo nemz mo ozen omne moo ze
: (NeXTmail accepted) FreeBSD/NeXTstep/OSF/VSTa/Ultrix/SunOS/
: URLs: www.nsa.org www.unix.org Linux/Unixware/Sco/Solaris/MicrosoftOS*
Hanson
ch...@vespucci.iquest.com (Chris Fisher) wrote:
>I for one hate the n64 pad. Im sick of stupid controllers that FORCE you
>to play with your thumbs. How completely inane. The only reason they are
>made this way is so game companies can sell you "special" fighter sticks.
>A good example is vf2 on the saturn; how exactly does one pull off
>gaurd+kick moves with a thumb? Why the answer is simple: "You buy the
>fighter stick." I don't think so. At least with the sega pad I can still
>play without being totally forced to use my thumbs.
>
>chris
Huh?
Hanson
"Take your stinking paws off of me, you damn dirty ape!"
- George Taylor
terrell gibbs
In article <50q26c$j...@vespucci.iquest.com>, ch...@vespucci.iquest.com
(Chris Fisher) wrote:
:I for one hate the n64 pad. Im sick of stupid controllers that FORCE you
:to play with your thumbs. How completely inane. The only reason they are
:made this way is so game companies can sell you "special" fighter sticks.
:A good example is vf2 on the saturn; how exactly does one pull off
:gaurd+kick moves with a thumb? Why the answer is simple: "You buy the
:fighter stick." I don't think so. At least with the sega pad I can still
:play without being totally forced to use my thumbs.
Yeah, but it's still pretty awkward. But I hate joysticks for home
consoles. I wish some enterprising company would make a "fighting" pad
with the buttons on the bottom--or even better, a pivot in the middle, so
you could turn them to the angle you want.
The other think I'd like to see somebody come up with would be a little
disk that optionally snaps on over 4 of the buttons, for those few games
that work best with a directional pad on each side (e.g. Robotron).
Eric Castle
In article <50moqs$5...@vespucci.iquest.com>, ch...@vespucci.iquest.com
(Chris Fisher) wrote:
> In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>,
> Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Its not analog by that definition. Analog is a gradual change as you
> >increase the distance. Digital is a consistant change as you increase
>
> Thats a mighty funny definition of "analog" you have there. No wonder
> people have so much trouble understanding your ramblings, you keep using
> word meanings from a very broken dictionary.
>
> chris
> --
Just curious, Chris, what is your definition of analog?
--
Eric
eric_...@taligent.com
Chris Fisher
>going to do that with that kind of layout. With the N64 pad, whatever two
>handles you grip, its going to feel like your grabbing two ends of a
>controller, thats how they designed it, so you wouldn't get that
I for one hate the n64 pad. Im sick of stupid controllers that FORCE you
to play with your thumbs. How completely inane. The only reason they are
made this way is so game companies can sell you "special" fighter sticks.
A good example is vf2 on the saturn; how exactly does one pull off
gaurd+kick moves with a thumb? Why the answer is simple: "You buy the
fighter stick." I don't think so. At least with the sega pad I can still
play without being totally forced to use my thumbs.
chris
Zen Zenith
Hugh Cruickshank wrote:
>
> The controller sucks. If you want a real controller then buy an n64 on sept
> 29th. Sega knows it and I know it, the n64 will kick some serious saturn but.
I disagree. I prefer the Saturn analog over the N64's for two reasons.
1: The looks. It looks cooler. What's with all the werid colored buttons
on the N64's analog?
2: The joy stick is smoother. It's not on a "stick" it's on a ball,
which help a little with the control.
Zen
--
___ ___ _ _
|_ | __| \| | mailto:Z...@thetemple.com
/ /| _|| .` | http://www.thetemple.com/Zen
|___|___|_|\_| "Happy People make more Happy People" -Missy
Hugh Cruickshank
The controller sucks. If you want a real controller then buy an n64 on sept
29th. Sega knows it and I know it, the n64 will kick some serious saturn but.
I don't care for all the reply
I just know that mr.myamoto has the power to make games fun. Just so you know
Wave Race 64, is sopposed to be as good as MARIO 64. That's right. 2 supposedly some of the best games ever on one system in a 2 month span. That leads to
a great future for this system, and almost gauranteeing good quality games.
terrell gibbs
: terrell gibbs (tgi...@bu.edu) wrote:
:
: : Well, versatility is as versatility does, and the number of ways it can be
: : used depends upon how you count. After all, the most "versatile" control
: : of all is the computer keyboard, but one of the major reasons I prefer
: : console games to computer games is that all of the controls are
: : conveniently accessible at once without having to move my hands around. No
: : design is going to be perfect for every purpose. But the Saturn pad has
: : the advantage that you can reach every control from the standard grip,
: : which means that you have more controls available to you at a given time
: : than with any other pad.
:
: However Dark Saviors kills your argument. In that game there are times
: wher eyou have to move the camera while you're moving, tell me how you're
: going to do that with that kind of layout. With the N64 pad, whatever two
: handles you grip, its going to feel like your grabbing two ends of a
: controller, thats how they designed it, so you wouldn't get that
: different feel that you're talking about.
: --
You can control the D-pad with the heel of your thumb and the A-pad with
the tip of your thumb, and still have access to all the buttons with your
right hand. And the point with the Nintendo controller is not the "feel"
of grabbing handles (most controllers in the past don't have handles, and
I don't see the need for them), but that you have to move your hands from
handle to handle if you want to simultaneously work both pads and all the
buttons.
Marty Chinn
terrell gibbs (tgi...@acs.bu.edu) wrote:
: You can control the D-pad with the heel of your thumb and the A-pad with
: the tip of your thumb, and still have access to all the buttons with your
: right hand. And the point with the Nintendo controller is not the "feel"
: of grabbing handles (most controllers in the past don't have handles, and
: I don't see the need for them), but that you have to move your hands from
: handle to handle if you want to simultaneously work both pads and all the
: buttons.
Oh give me a break, Terrell do you have Dark Saviors. Please be honest
and tell me if you can actually use that so called method to control the
game like that. Stop making assumptions and start actually doing things
before you make such claims.
PsychoKick
In article <vidsourcD...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com says...
>
>terrell gibbs (tgi...@acs.bu.edu) wrote:
>
>: You can control the D-pad with the heel of your thumb and the A-pad with
>: the tip of your thumb, and still have access to all the buttons with your
>: right hand. And the point with the Nintendo controller is not the "feel"
>: of grabbing handles (most controllers in the past don't have handles, and
>: I don't see the need for them), but that you have to move your hands from
>: handle to handle if you want to simultaneously work both pads and all the
>: buttons.
>
>Oh give me a break, Terrell do you have Dark Saviors. Please be honest
>and tell me if you can actually use that so called method to control the
>game like that. Stop making assumptions and start actually doing things
>before you make such claims.
It sounds just as valid and easy a technique as using a digital pad to
fly at a non-compass direction...
--
-PsychoKick
http://www.panix.com/~wyoon
School of Hard Nox and other chaos...
Drew Holland
terrell gibbs wrote:
>
> In article <50kbvt$9...@news.smart.net>, jna...@smart.net (Justin Nation) wrote:
>
> :In rec.games.video.nintendo terrell gibbs <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote:
> :: Chinn) wrote:
> ::
> :: :Well since you know so much about Analog, then you should know it is only
> :: :used in walking in Nights. Flying makes no use of analog. It may be
> :: :easier to use than the d-pad but it makes no use of analog.
> ::
> :: It seems to me that I have 360 degree directional control with the A-pad,
> :: but only 8-direction control with the D-pad, and I know that others have
> :: had the same impression. Do you know for a fact that this is not true?
> :
> : Uhh.... I think you are missing the point here Mr. Gibbs. The honorable
> :Mr. Chinn was telling you that the game makes no use of ANALOG.
>
> I think that this is silly. It is doing something that an analog
> controller can do, and that a digital controller cannot, namely providing
> 360 degree (as opposed to 8-direction) directional control. How can this
> reasonably be said to be making no use of analog?
of analog controllers. 360 degrees can be done on a digital pad, in
fact I seem to remember a SNES controller that had a 360 of freedom (It
was the one that just had like a yellow circle that was sensitive to
touch). The analog controller's best point is that it allows you to
control your speed by sensing how far you push the stick. Of course
when you get right down to it the N64's (and probably the Saturn's)
analog stick is really a digital stick with 16,129 positions (127x127,
the grid that the analog stick uses). But your right, Nights does
reasonably use the analog pad, just not to it's fullest ability.
Drew Holland
Ricky W. Brown
wt...@cornell.edu (PsychoKick) wrote:
> It sounds just as valid and easy a technique as using a digital pad to
>fly at a non-compass direction...
Wouldn't it be nice if the two d-pads on the 3d controller were usable
together? I know that there's that function switch, but perhaps it
can be overidden??
Rick Brown
brow...@gold.tc.umn.edu
Ricky W. Brown
vids...@netcom.com (Marty Chinn) wrote:
>terrell gibbs (tgi...@acs.bu.edu) wrote:
>: You can control the D-pad with the heel of your thumb and the A-pad with
>: the tip of your thumb, and still have access to all the buttons with your
>: right hand. And the point with the Nintendo controller is not the "feel"
>: of grabbing handles (most controllers in the past don't have handles, and
>: I don't see the need for them), but that you have to move your hands from
>: handle to handle if you want to simultaneously work both pads and all the
>: buttons.
>Oh give me a break, Terrell do you have Dark Saviors. Please be honest
>and tell me if you can actually use that so called method to control the
>game like that. Stop making assumptions and start actually doing things
>before you make such claims.
These two people are what Sega and Sony are to each other....
[Smiles....]
We'll know the Second Coming is here (I'm kidding) when they finally
agree with each other about something.
Rick Brown
brow...@gold.tc.umn.edu
terrell gibbs
In article <50thd2$2...@epx.cis.umn.edu>, brow...@gold.tc.umn.edu (Ricky
W. Brown) wrote:
: Wouldn't it be nice if the two d-pads on the 3d controller were usable
: together? I know that there's that function switch, but perhaps it
: can be overidden?
Setting the function switch to analog doesn't electrically disable the
D-pad--it's up to the game whether to use one or both pads.
ru...@connect.ab.ca
On Sun, 08 Sep 1996 06:13:52 GMT, brow...@gold.tc.umn.edu (Ricky W. Brown)
wrote:
>wt...@cornell.edu (PsychoKick) wrote:
>
>> It sounds just as valid and easy a technique as using a digital pad to
>>fly at a non-compass direction...
>
>Wouldn't it be nice if the two d-pads on the 3d controller were usable
>together? I know that there's that function switch, but perhaps it
>can be overidden??
>
They can both be working at the same time. Dark Savior uses both.
>Rick Brown
>brow...@gold.tc.umn.edu
>
-Rune
David Aldridge
Ricky W. Brown (brow...@gold.tc.umn.edu) writes:
> Wouldn't it be nice if the two d-pads on the 3d controller were usable
> together? I know that there's that function switch, but perhaps it
> can be overidden??
According to the information sheet that came with the 3D controller in
Nights, both pads are active in analog mode. Some games already have you
using both pads, although not simultaneously. For example, Sega Rally has
you driving with the analog pad and choosing your options with the cross
pad (without switching modes).
Greg Sewart
Hanson wrote:
>
> ch...@vespucci.iquest.com (Chris Fisher) wrote:
>
> >I for one hate the n64 pad. Im sick of stupid controllers that FORCE you
> >to play with your thumbs. How completely inane. The only reason they are
> >made this way is so game companies can sell you "special" fighter sticks.
> >A good example is vf2 on the saturn; how exactly does one pull off
> >gaurd+kick moves with a thumb? Why the answer is simple: "You buy the
> >fighter stick." I don't think so. At least with the sega pad I can still
> >play without being totally forced to use my thumbs.
> >
> >chris
>
>
> Hanson
> "Take your stinking paws off of me, you damn dirty ape!"
> - George Taylor
Yeah, I gotta admit I was kind of confused on that post myself. BTW,
they made an easy way to do the G+P, G+P+K, etc. moves in the Saturn
VF2, tehy let you use teh x, y and z buttons as combination buttons.
Personally, I have always played games using my thubs, and to do
multiple button combos, I have gotten very good at rolling my thumb to
cover two or three buttons at a time. However, games like VF2 do not
require this strategy, because of thoughtful control options.
Greg
"Over-specialize and you breed in weakness."
-Ghost in the Shell
Saturn/Genesis/SegaCD
Pig Chops
Hello Robotron, Smash TV, Food Fight, and all the other games of this
type. Finally the ight controller for these games.
PiG cHoPs!
Lionel
Chris Fisher wrote:
> A good example is vf2 on the saturn; how exactly does one pull off
> gaurd+kick moves with a thumb?
I just use my brain. In the options there is a Key config. Just put
the Guard on the Z button. So, with one thumb, you can press C+Z
together. Perhaps your thumb is too small ?
Lion
Andrew Ryan Chang
Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote:
>terrell gibbs (tgi...@acs.bu.edu) wrote:
>
>: You can control the D-pad with the heel of your thumb and the A-pad with
>: the tip of your thumb, and still have access to all the buttons with your
>: right hand. And the point with the Nintendo controller is not the "feel"
>Oh give me a break, Terrell do you have Dark Saviors. Please be honest
>and tell me if you can actually use that so called method to control the
>game like that. Stop making assumptions and start actually doing things
>before you make such claims.
Marty, considering that you are apparently a very skilled gamer
and think of many things as "easy", I am surprised that you doubt another
gamer's claims. Remember how some people doubted your Powerplay trick
because they couldn't pull it off?
BTW, I don't think I could do this incredibly dextrous thumb
trick.
--
"_The Endless Fire:_ It was later found out that the fire had been started
by a civil servant, who thought he was casting the ZEMDOR spell ('turn
original into triplicate') but who, instead, cast the ZIMBOR spell ('turn one
really big city into lots of tiny little ashes')" -Encyclopedia Frobozzica.
Marty Chinn
Andrew Ryan Chang (arc...@sfu.ca) wrote:
: Marty, considering that you are apparently a very skilled gamer
: and think of many things as "easy", I am surprised that you doubt another
: gamer's claims. Remember how some people doubted your Powerplay trick
: because they couldn't pull it off?
: BTW, I don't think I could do this incredibly dextrous thumb
: trick.
The point being Dark Savior is out only has import so the chances, and
from what I've witnessed of Terrill in the past, its unlikely he has the
import.
: --
: "_The Endless Fire:_ It was later found out that the fire had been started
: by a civil servant, who thought he was casting the ZEMDOR spell ('turn
: original into triplicate') but who, instead, cast the ZIMBOR spell ('turn one
: really big city into lots of tiny little ashes')" -Encyclopedia Frobozzica.
terrell gibbs
: Andrew Ryan Chang (arc...@sfu.ca) wrote:
:
: : Marty, considering that you are apparently a very skilled gamer
: : and think of many things as "easy", I am surprised that you doubt another
: : gamer's claims. Remember how some people doubted your Powerplay trick
: : because they couldn't pull it off?
:
: : BTW, I don't think I could do this incredibly dextrous thumb
: : trick.
:
: The point being Dark Savior is out only has import so the chances, and
: from what I've witnessed of Terrill in the past, its unlikely he has the
: import.
:
No, I don't have the import of Dark Savior, but I've used the controller
this way in Sega Rally to shift gears with the D-pad while simultaneously
steering with the A-pad, and it seems to work well, so I doubt if I'll have
much difficulty doing the same in Dark Savior.
terrell gibbs
In article <3231E2...@nwlink.com>, Drew Holland <bun...@nwlink.com> wrote:
: > : Uhh.... I think you are missing the point here Mr. Gibbs. The honorable
: > :Mr. Chinn was telling you that the game makes no use of ANALOG.
: >
: > I think that this is silly. It is doing something that an analog
: > controller can do, and that a digital controller cannot, namely providing
: > 360 degree (as opposed to 8-direction) directional control. How can this
: > reasonably be said to be making no use of analog?
:
: What they are saying is that 360 degrees of control isn't the high point
: of analog controllers.
I don't know what makes that the "high point" of analog. Personally, having
"grown up" with analog controllers on PC's, I find the 8-direction
restriction of a digital controller to be a *major* limitation. Almost any
game with movement or shooting provides better precision of directional
control with an analog controller. I consider this to be a high point.
: 360 degrees can be done on a digital pad, in
: fact I seem to remember a SNES controller that had a 360 of freedom (It
: was the one that just had like a yellow circle that was sensitive to
: touch).
Wrong. I have one. To be compatible with the SNES, it had to translate
where you touched the pad into the same old 8 directions.
:The analog controller's best point is that it allows you to
: control your speed by sensing how far you push the stick.
Which NiGHTS also does in the walking scenes. But personally, I find the
improved directional control to be a greater benefit. And it is simply
foolish to insist that one is really analog and the other is not.
: Of course
: when you get right down to it the N64's (and probably the Saturn's)
: analog stick is really a digital stick with 16,129 positions (127x127,
: the grid that the analog stick uses).
I don't know whether the internal construction of the Saturn pad is
actually analog, or some advanced digital design. At some point, there has
to be an A/D conversion, anyway. Game systems are digital systems, after
all. So really it comes down to the number of bits of information. Digital
pads provide the system with 3 bits of information about pad position.
Analog controllers generally provide at least 8 bits of information about
stick position (although I hope that the Saturn is better than 127 x 127,
which is really pretty coarse, especially if you want to use it to position
something on the screen).
: But your right, Nights does
: reasonably use the analog pad, just not to it's fullest ability.
True. NiGHTS uses the additional directional precision, and also the
ability to control speed of movement by how far you push the control, as
does Mario. But they don't take advantage of the ability of an analog
control to emulate a mouse or light gun--i.e. controlling the position of a
screen pointer in the XY plane. And of course, Nights also doesn't use the
analog feature of the other two analog controls on the pad. But I don't see
that it's necessary for every game to use the analog controller in every
possible way.
Marty Chinn
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
terrell gibbs (tgi...@acs.bu.edu) wrote:
: No, I don't have the import of Dark Savior, but I've used the controller
: this way in Sega Rally to shift gears with the D-pad while simultaneously
: steering with the A-pad, and it seems to work well, so I doubt if I'll have
: much difficulty doing the same in Dark Savior.
Thats different. I've done this too on Sega Rally. All you need to do is
tap the D-Pad to change gears. In Dark Savior you have to hold the camera
angle precisely and move your character within that camera view. Moving
your character is not just some simple tapping. BTW I do retract what I
said early about the controller and Nights. I did go back to it and I now
see what you're referring to. Because its rare that you need to use that
precision and you'd be going straight for a long period of time, I had
not noticed this when comparing analog to digital.
Andrew Ryan Chang
terrell gibbs <tgi...@acs.bu.edu> wrote:
>: What they are saying is that 360 degrees of control isn't the high point
>: of analog controllers.
>
>I don't know what makes that the "high point" of analog. Personally, having
>"grown up" with analog controllers on PC's, I find the 8-direction
>restriction of a digital controller to be a *major* limitation. Almost any
>game with movement or shooting provides better precision of directional
>control with an analog controller. I consider this to be a high point.
For certain games (VF2, SF), the controller motions are a sort of
input that's not as closely related to the action as other games (Raiden,
Sonic). I think that having a crisp 8 directions (crisp, dammit! Arcade
owners who don't maintain their joysticks suck.) allows the VF machine to
understand your commands (for instance, P+K+G,b,d/f+P+K,f+P needs to be
tapped out quickly, and muffing the d/f into a d/d/d/f or something would
just be annoying.
--
Check Fork Sun Cup Zero
Fish Adjective One Tray Ball
Coke Two Chip Light Zone
Net Three Verb Ice Reflection
Albert 005
On 6 Sep 1996, Chris Fisher wrote:
> I for one hate the n64 pad. Im sick of stupid controllers that FORCE you
> to play with your thumbs. How completely inane. The only reason they are
> made this way is so game companies can sell you "special" fighter sticks.
I agree with this statement. I HATE having to use my right thumb when it
comes to playing fighting games. I prefer the arcade style where you use
your finger/s to press the attack buttons. As for the joystick, using my
thumb on a regular controller's (except the Playstations) "cross-pad" is
okay with me. I can't stand it when you're FORCED to hold your controllers
like a grip of a car's steering wheel to access ALL the buttons (Street
Fighter whatever on the SNES and Playstation).
> A good example is vf2 on the saturn; how exactly does one pull off
> gaurd+kick moves with a thumb? Why the answer is simple: "You buy the
> fighter stick." I don't think so. At least with the sega pad I can still
> play without being totally forced to use my thumbs.
>
That's what I liked about the sega genesis' six button or the saturns
controlers.
Albert 005 ___
(o.o) aaverg...@csupomona.edu albe...@aol.com |/ || / \" _ |
- http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/3211/index.html .' / |/ / \ |`
! Highlander, Gargoyles, X-Files, Voyager, Sliders, Lois & Clark !
! Maison Ikkoku, Video Girl Ai, Kimagure Orange Road, Greenwood, Ranma !
! the SandMan, Stray Bullets, X-Men, the Maxx, Spawn, Wild C.A.T.S !
John Stiles
> :Im sick of stupid controllers that FORCE you
> :to play with your thumbs. How completely inane. The only reason they are
> :made this way is so game companies can sell you "special" fighter sticks.
> :gaurd+kick moves with a thumb?
Umm... this is really easy. USE TWO FINGERS. You can't do it with one
thumb, but if you grip the controller right you can use three fingers on
the button pad with one finger per button. This makes it insanely easy to
do most moves, especially PPPK, and my complete adoption of this technique
is the primary reason that I can't ever fully adjust to using a joystick
with VF2. (For that matter, even the NiGHTS pad is shaped differently
enough that I get confused if I try to play VF2 with the NiGHTS pad--I end
up pausing the game spastically as I attempt to block.)
> :Why the answer is simple: "You buy the
> :fighter stick." I don't think so. At least with the sega pad I can still
> :play without being totally forced to use my thumbs.
In fact, the fighter sticks on ANY system ruin my game. But that's a whole
new story...
> Yeah, but it's still pretty awkward. But I hate joysticks for home
> consoles. I wish some enterprising company would make a "fighting" pad
> with the buttons on the bottom--or even better, a pivot in the middle, so
> you could turn them to the angle you want.
Has anyone here seen a VF2 machine in Japan? The button placement for the
guard is very interesting. It makes it easy to use your thumb to block and
two fingers on punch and kick. I have no idea why they changed it on the
American machines.
*Stiles
.
.
.