[RANT] Working Designs has just just gone too damn far!
John Hokanson Jr.
now I will do so no more. What little respect I once harbored for the
company and the man in the president's chair is now but a memory.
As some of you may or may not know, the R&Bish version of the
Magic Knights Rayearth song was apparently Vic's idea of a joke.
He recently posted the "real" version that will be used in the game
on his website.
But aside from that, I want to talk a little as to WHY he did this.
Vic apparently has grown a great deal of amimosity towards the anime
community. Those that have criticized his attempts at "translating"
(and in the case of Working Designs, I use the word loosely), and
for sometimes straying form the path of the original Rayeath
production (as well as many of his past efforts at "translating" in
general) have come under venomous and deplorable attacks
that send shockwaves though the anime and video game communities.
Trite epithets such as "fanboy" have been bantered around in context
that is unmistakeably used as a insult to fans of anime in general,
and who only want to see an honest attempt at porting a Japanese
anime based RPG with some modicum of integrity. Any attemts at
reconciliation have either been stonewalled or sidesteped by
irrelevant answers and issues such as Vic's hibitual attempts to
heighten his position by attacking other companies impotence in
porting over many RPGs, or by issuing ultimatums such as "If you don't
like it, take a hike" (or other responses with the same drive behind
them). Even going so far as to not recognize or dismiss those that
cite examples like TH*Q, who have behun porting over anime games such
as Grandstream Saga or Ghost in the Shell. Games which, I might add,
destroy the illusionary farrytell that WD is the ONLY single company
on the face of the earth that is capable or willing to do what it is
they do. He has repeatedly made it painfully clear, that his own
personal preferences end up playing a great deal in the final product
results. Ireland believes that most RPGs that are translated for the
American market share a sort of stiff narative that he perhaps falsely
believes is a direct threat to the success of RPGs in the US (citing
Squaresoft games as an example). If this were to be true, then it is
certainly a dark time for everybody. I would see nothing more then a
nation of illiterate gamers, who must have their form of entertainment
garnished with childish pre-pubesent humor in order to derive any sort
of enjoyment factor or to maintain a hold on their obviously already
shortened attention spans. Clearly, it become painfully clear to
everybody that the man is incorrigible and I seriously call into
question his stance that he is a man who depends strongly on the
concensus of the fanbase.
MKRE has been constantly delayed time and time again. Many excuses
and reasons have been given to maintain the ever weakening patience
of fans who have been waiting in earnist for the eventual (dear god we
hope!) release. And yet, it is worth mentioning, that despite all the
reports that he has been working on this game in a rapid pace, at last
report, the game is still not finished. An excuse was issued
concerning the packaging. It was said that the packaging would have to
be redone in order to remain compliant with a new standard issued by
SOA. However, is it not amsuing that THIS is mentioned, while it is
quickly disregarded that the game is incapable of release because the
audio is not yet done! Could it be, that the game that Vic claims he
has great resolve to release is actually quite low on his priority
list.?
Furthermore, as mentioned before in this and other groups, the game
was delayed for at least 9 months (with admission of Vic himself
recently to substanciate) because of his attempt to alter the names
because he believes the originals were too japanese sounding. At
NO TIME following the 18 month argumentive period with Kondansha was
this brought to light by him, or any employee of Working Designs. It
is not too outlandish to say that such a fact would probably have
served WD better if it was swept under the rug quietly, never to see
daylight again. It was force fed to those complaing about delays that
the names that Kondansha proposed for the game (which coincide with
the failed US TV adaptation) were of a lackluster quality, and that
the original Japanese names sound much better (simply amazing how this
man can reverse his opinion so quickly).
The most recent developmet is Ireland's sad attempt at comical prose
and media. After it was made public that the R&B style Rayearth song
was in fact a sham. Ireland had this to say:
"No, it REALLY WAS a joke. We were dropping flamebait for
our amusement until the "real" new intro was finished being
mixed. It was unexpected that some people actually *liked*
the completely inappropriate new "spin"."
To purposely feed off the anger of fans waiting for the game, or those
that have complained about the quality of the vocal dubbing is a
dispicable act. It amounts to nothing more then trolling, and this
does not even elude Ireland himself. It is a vile and repulsive attack
against the livelyhood and character of the Sega Saturn community, the
video game community, and most certainly the anime community. With a
game that has been delayed for so long, he is treading on rapidly
thining ice by forulating scornful humor. I find it extreamly ironic
that he has so much time on his hands to hire a singer and record the
false underlined melody, but not enough time on his hands to get the
GD game out on time!!!! Rayearth has constantly had to play second
fiddle to other titles, and it has constantly undergone delays. A
great deal of which no doubt have to do with the subversion and
americanization of the game. I have tried my best to give Vic and his
company the benifit of the doubt. Knowing full well ahead of time that
there is a always a chance that the game might be ruined by his
sophomoric blend of humor. The straw that has broken the back of the
proverbial camel is his neglect to show the proper form of empathy
towards the fans that have been waiting THREE years for this game.
You can go ahead and list foil covers and RAM cart stickers that may
point to the contrary, but his refusal to stop the attacks against the
anime community (and some members of the gaming community) shows quite
the reverse. Vic's arrogance knows no bounds, and he has flagrently
assumed that we are all drooling morons who have nothing better to do
then support the idiocy of his troubled intitution which he believe
shares some sort of demi-god status.
Vic is *WORSE* then Carl Macek as Enrique Conty has pointed out. At
least Carl Macek did not flaunt his lack of interest in the will of
the anime community back when he was translating. Vic the other hand
makes an open mockery of it!
And thus, as I am tired of mind, tired of body, and just plain tired
of everything that has led up to this unfortunate end, I will now
close this letter of protest with the declaration that I will NOT be
buying the US version of Rayearth, nor will I support them in any
future venture until that can prove to me that they have grown up
and not insult my love of a particular hobby I tend to enjor a great
deal (anime). I will be buying the import version which is much
cheaper and ensures me the authentic Rayearth experience. To those
that would openly chastize me for making a point by claiming I don't
have to buy the game, well....there you go. I will not ask for people
to follow me if they do not feel the same way. Nor will I press my
opinions on others. I will only say that it you do not like what
Ireland is doing, do NOT feel that it is your only option to get his
games. Expect this behavior from him, but do not openly tolerate it.
I was going to end this letter with a single sentence to the effect of
"You can take my $65 and shove it up your ass Ireland", but then that
would only bring me down to his level, and I will not been seen or
accused of anything even remotely resembing hypocrisy.
Goodnight to all.
John "Gameman" Hokanson Jr.
gam...@usagi.com - yangn...@hotmail.com
http://gameman.usagi.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As with all things, the joy is in the going. We all know
we're going to die, that as the poet said, "we are born
astride the grave." But knowing that inevitable
reality has never stopped human endeavor before...."
- Joseph Michael Straczynski
"It's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it goddamnit!!!"
- Me
SR Dominguez
> opinions on others. I will only say that it you do not like what
> Ireland is doing, do NOT feel that it is your only option to get his
> games. Expect this behavior from him, but do not openly tolerate it.
Rachel and I are currently playing through Lunar Complete and Eternal Blue
in Japanese, and enjoying them a great deal more for it. Learn some basic
Japanese, it really is easier than you'd think.
*SUNSET BEACH*GRANDIA*GOLDENEYE 007*
(Memo to myself - none of the above are real)
Simon Rafael Dominguez (u5...@ugd.keele.ac.uk)
Castellan
>I have followed Working Designs since the Sega CD days, and
>now I will do so no more. What little respect I once harbored for the
>company and the man in the president's chair is now but a memory.
Hokay, John. I think you knew this was coming. :)
>As some of you may or may not know, the R&Bish version of the
>Magic Knights Rayearth song was apparently Vic's idea of a joke.
>He recently posted the "real" version that will be used in the game
>on his website.
First off, let me state I found this joke to be hilarious.
Come on, folks; get a sense of humor, fer chrissakes. The reason
the current anti-WD crowd gets painted as raving otaku zealots is
because you seem to lack any ability to laugh at your own obsession.
I'm sure I could launch into a little psychological analysis as to why,
but, in the interest of remaining topical, I'll simply say this: anime
fandom *is* hilarious, when you step back and look at it. I mean, what
are you REALLY getting so worked up over, here? Your enjoyment of
watching cartoons with saucer-eyed heroines and the culture that produced
them. I'm an anime fan myself (well, certain anime), but I sure as hell
don't take my little hobby so seriously that a prank which plays off of
the defensive attitude adopted by many adherents makes me churn out
150 lines of angry rant instead of an amused, self-derisive smile.
Vic's joke was funny. The fact that your reactions are so
predictable to him proves that your attitude is crystalline and
inflexible when your obsession is challenged. Laugh a little. He got
you guys, and good. Sure, you'd like to think that you were a bit more
perspiciacious, a bit more open-minded, but your predictability made
you an easy target. Think of it as a lesson learned - the only people
who got "hurt" were critics a little too eager in their desire to condemn.
>But aside from that, I want to talk a little as to WHY he did this.
>Vic apparently has grown a great deal of amimosity towards the anime
>community. Those that have criticized his attempts at "translating"
>(and in the case of Working Designs, I use the word loosely), and
>for sometimes straying form the path of the original Rayeath
>production (as well as many of his past efforts at "translating" in
>general) have come under venomous and deplorable attacks
>that send shockwaves though the anime and video game communities.
Lord, you make the man sound like Idi Amin, when all he has said
is that you folks take yourselves WAY too seriously. His little prank
only proved that. Venomous and deplorable? Only if you place too much
stock in your own opinions.
>Trite epithets such as "fanboy" have been bantered around in context
>that is unmistakeably used as a insult to fans of anime in general,
>and who only want to see an honest attempt at porting a Japanese
>anime based RPG with some modicum of integrity.
You ARE fanboys. Anyone other than a fanboy would've laughed a
bit at how easily his desire to castigate Vic had led him astray. Come
ON.
Uh, what, Beavis? This whole "conclusion" is so riddled with
straw men and misinterpretations that I really don't know where to
start. The narrative in the FF series *is* stiff, as are the dialogues
in Atlus titles and Granstream Saga/Quest 64. WD *does* produce dialogue
which sounds much more natural in English, rather than the stilted
literal translations produced by other companies. There's really no
debating this. And he *is* right - I, myself, have seen people turned off
by the goofy Woolsey translations and the rather bizarre and overly
literal Atlus jobs. Persona and Tactics Ogre, despite being excellent
games, might have done a bit better were their dialogue a little more
accessable in the way of English convention - your average American gamer
really does NOT want literal translations of Japanese common-usage
metaphors and cliches. I remember playing Tactics Ogre, and hearing
me friends break into hysterics when Chapter 3's Chaos-path title scrolled
onscreen - "Losers are Called Hogs and Dogs." The game was immediately
(and very incorrectly) decreed as "stupid" and "lame," because the word
choice was bluntly literal and made the erstwhile backseat players feel
uncomfortable. In such a case, the choice of an appropriate English
common-usage epithet would've been decidedly more effective, although
the so-called "original" meaning would've been lost.
At this time, Working Designs does the best job in LOCALIZING
RPG titles. Only a very small minority prefer to have their games
unlocalized, and they are very vehement and rigid in the expression of
their distaste for this act. He seems incorrigible on this issue because
he knows his audience far better than this often self-righteous minority
does, despite their protestations of "being more in touch with what the fans
want." Trust me, here - just because most of you are fanatical enough to
seek out like souls on the internet and rally together does NOT mean you
represent the sum of WD fans - I know several folks who play WD titles who
care not one whit for Japanese culture, anime, or J-pop (in fact, a couple
of them utterly despise the latter two). The "consensus" lies in the
money Vic receives for his work; if people don't like what he is doing,
they won't buy his games. Apparently, the consensus is with him on the
localization issue - if I recall, Alundra is about ready to sell its 200,000th
copy, making it WDs far-and-away best-selling title to date. If the "fans"
so disapprove of his localization, WD wouldn't be doing as well as they are.
>MKRE has been constantly delayed time and time again. Many excuses
>and reasons have been given to maintain the ever weakening patience
>of fans who have been waiting in earnist for the eventual (dear god we
>hope!) release. And yet, it is worth mentioning, that despite all the
>reports that he has been working on this game in a rapid pace, at last
>report, the game is still not finished. An excuse was issued
>concerning the packaging. It was said that the packaging would have to
>be redone in order to remain compliant with a new standard issued by
>SOA. However, is it not amsuing that THIS is mentioned, while it is
>quickly disregarded that the game is incapable of release because the
>audio is not yet done! Could it be, that the game that Vic claims he
>has great resolve to release is actually quite low on his priority
>list.?
I'm a bit curious to hear the full story on this one, myself.
It does indeed appear that the audio was not at all complete when the
packaging excuse was offered - Vic?
>The most recent developmet is Ireland's sad attempt at comical prose
>and media. After it was made public that the R&B style Rayearth song
>was in fact a sham. Ireland had this to say:
>"No, it REALLY WAS a joke. We were dropping flamebait for
>our amusement until the "real" new intro was finished being
>mixed. It was unexpected that some people actually *liked*
>the completely inappropriate new "spin"."
And it was funny. You fell for it. You folks were so eager to
dredge up another piece of "evidence" proving Vic's lack of concern for
"the original work" that you bit down on that shiny hook with all the
strength your little fish jaws could muster. You were trolled.
>To purposely feed off the anger of fans waiting for the game, or those
>that have complained about the quality of the vocal dubbing is a
>dispicable act. It amounts to nothing more then trolling, and this
>does not even elude Ireland himself. It is a vile and repulsive attack
>against the livelyhood and character of the Sega Saturn community, the
>video game community, and most certainly the anime community. With a
>game that has been delayed for so long, he is treading on rapidly
>thining ice by forulating scornful humor. I find it extreamly ironic
>that he has so much time on his hands to hire a singer and record the
>false underlined melody, but not enough time on his hands to get the
>GD game out on time!!!!
What's worse: the troll, or the indignant fish who flops around
on the end of the hook, trying to insist that he wasn't snagged?
Vic also noted (on the WD Forum Pages, at least), that, after
recording the "real" take, they simply asked the singer to do an R&B
take for amusement purposes. He didn't "hire" anyone - the woman
probably did it because *she* thought it'd be funny. And, as I've
said countless times, it *is* funny - it's a single bloody POP song
accompanied by the antics of a trio of big-eyed cartoon chicks that has
people posting long, detailed analyses and criticisms to USENET. Anything
as long-winded and self-important as some of those pieces became,
especially when the topic is so trivial, is definitely worth seeing
skewered.
You people really take yourselves FAR too seriously.
> Rayearth has constantly had to play second
>fiddle to other titles, and it has constantly undergone delays. A
>great deal of which no doubt have to do with the subversion and
>americanization of the game. I have tried my best to give Vic and his
>company the benifit of the doubt. Knowing full well ahead of time that
>there is a always a chance that the game might be ruined by his
>sophomoric blend of humor. The straw that has broken the back of the
>proverbial camel is his neglect to show the proper form of empathy
>towards the fans that have been waiting THREE years for this game.
>You can go ahead and list foil covers and RAM cart stickers that may
>point to the contrary, but his refusal to stop the attacks against the
>anime community (and some members of the gaming community) shows quite
>the reverse. Vic's arrogance knows no bounds, and he has flagrently
>assumed that we are all drooling morons who have nothing better to do
>then support the idiocy of his troubled intitution which he believe
>shares some sort of demi-god status.
>Vic is *WORSE* then Carl Macek as Enrique Conty has pointed out. At
>least Carl Macek did not flaunt his lack of interest in the will of
>the anime community back when he was translating. Vic the other hand
>makes an open mockery of it!
And yet, like Macek, you still buy his stuff. You want to send
a message? Don't buy Rayearth or any other WD games. The only irony
present is the fact that you can feel as though he's abusing you and
ramble on and on about your perceived mistreatment, yet when the game
is released, you snap it up in droves. And if you aren't planning to
buy it, why the hell are you complaining?
Asking Vic to make changes, I can understand. I can even understand
specific criticisms levelled against his product - if you buy the game, you
are entitled to your personal evaluation of its worth. But when you level
accusations of ABUSE and MISTREATMENT against the man, I really gotta ask:
why on EARTH do you buy his games? Masochism?
I'll tell you why, and it's the same reason that you lack any sense
of humor on this subject: you're fanboys. You love anime and Japanese games
so much that you'll put up with any amount of suffering to get what you
want. It's pretty hard to laugh at yourself when building that cross takes
so much work, eh? Sometimes, I can't help but wonder if you relish the idea
that Vic is the man nailing you up.
>And thus, as I am tired of mind, tired of body, and just plain tired
>of everything that has led up to this unfortunate end, I will now
>close this letter of protest with the declaration that I will NOT be
>buying the US version of Rayearth, nor will I support them in any
>future venture until that can prove to me that they have grown up
>and not insult my love of a particular hobby I tend to enjor a great
>deal (anime).
Well done! One step on the road to recovery. Of course, since you
aren't planning on buying Rayearth, any future criticism will be perceived
as rather unconstructive.
>I will be buying the import version which is much
>cheaper and ensures me the authentic Rayearth experience. To those
>that would openly chastize me for making a point by claiming I don't
>have to buy the game, well....there you go. I will not ask for people
>to follow me if they do not feel the same way. Nor will I press my
>opinions on others. I will only say that it you do not like what
>Ireland is doing, do NOT feel that it is your only option to get his
>games. Expect this behavior from him, but do not openly tolerate it.
At least you're being consistent. Points for that.
Now, if you'll all pardon me, I'd like to use the last of my coffee
break to once against reel off the patented Castellan "Lighten Up Folks"
spiel:
Lighten up. We're talking about a GAME here. There's no reason to
get so distraught over the antics of one company in such a big market. To
me, EA's cancellation of Thrill Kill is a topic far more meritorious of
angry, partisan discussion than a little joke played on fans of a certain
type by a company president known for his off-kilter humor. Relax. You
think Vic's being a weasel? Don't buy his games - I'm sure the fans who
would be offended by his behavior are those who've had experience in
playing games in original Japanese, anyhow, and they should simply order
the original. You'll save yourself needless anxiety and time, as well as
sending a message to Vic that you, personally, don't like his handling
of Japanese properties and you. Cool?
>Goodnight to all.
Just a note to John: once again, don't take my response as
indicative of any possible disrespect; like you, I'm simply airing my
opinion on the matter. While I don't agree with your view of this affair,
that doesn't mean I feel your opinions are invalid. Concisely put, I
don't think I can dredge up the time to concoct a response like this in
the near future. :)
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
SegaNet: http://www.seganet.com/ for Sega-related info ICQ#: 12822495
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
Enrique Conty
>now I will do so no more. What little respect I once harbored for the
>company and the man in the president's chair is now but a memory.
You've seen the light...
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
co...@enteract.com
I'm selling some old Mac games. Check out:
http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
Raul
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu says...
>
>yangn...@hotmail.com (John Hokanson Jr.) writes:
>
>>I have followed Working Designs since the Sega CD days, and
>>now I will do so no more. What little respect I once harbored for the
>>company and the man in the president's chair is now but a memory.
>
> Hokay, John. I think you knew this was coming. :)
>
>>As some of you may or may not know, the R&Bish version of the
>>Magic Knights Rayearth song was apparently Vic's idea of a joke.
>>He recently posted the "real" version that will be used in the game
>>on his website.
>
> First off, let me state I found this joke to be hilarious.
>Come on, folks; get a sense of humor, fer chrissakes. The reason
>the current anti-WD crowd gets painted as raving otaku zealots is
>because you seem to lack any ability to laugh at your own obsession.
>I'm sure I could launch into a little psychological analysis as to why,
>but, in the interest of remaining topical, I'll simply say this: anime
>fandom *is* hilarious, when you step back and look at it. I mean, what
>are you REALLY getting so worked up over, here? Your enjoyment of
>watching cartoons with saucer-eyed heroines and the culture that produced
>them. I'm an anime fan myself (well, certain anime), but I sure as hell
>don't take my little hobby so seriously that a prank which plays off of
>the defensive attitude adopted by many adherents makes me churn out
>150 lines of angry rant instead of an amused, self-derisive smile.
I'm sorry, guys... I have to agree here. There are times when the people of
this fandom seem to be completely lacking of a funny bone and are looking for
any excuse to bash people, and this is definitely one of those times.
MIC1322
In article <6ucpup$6va$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>,
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) writes:
> And he *is* right - I, myself, have seen people turned off
>by the goofy Woolsey translations and the rather bizarre and overly
>literal Atlus jobs. Persona and Tactics Ogre, despite being excellent
>games, might have done a bit better were their dialogue a little more
>accessable in the way of English convention - your average American gamer
>really does NOT want literal translations of Japanese common-usage
>metaphors and cliches.
I thought the Atlus jobs on Kartia and Persona were pretty good. I never played
the Japanese versions(don't speak a word of it and probably never will since my
talents don't lie in that direction), but Persona did a good job(with a couple
of exceptions) at conveying how some young punk-ish kids spoke, and Kartia is a
game that relies heavily on story since there aren't any random battles or
stores, bars and sidequests like in Final Fantasy Tactics. I thought Toxa and
Lacryma's stories were both good, especially since they're so different, with
one very serious and dark and the other had me laughing out loud. Oh well, to
each his own.
Castellan
>I thought the Atlus jobs on Kartia and Persona were pretty good. I never played
>the Japanese versions(don't speak a word of it and probably never will since my
>talents don't lie in that direction), but Persona did a good job(with a couple
>of exceptions) at conveying how some young punk-ish kids spoke, and Kartia is a
>game that relies heavily on story since there aren't any random battles or
>stores, bars and sidequests like in Final Fantasy Tactics. I thought Toxa and
>Lacryma's stories were both good, especially since they're so different, with
>one very serious and dark and the other had me laughing out loud. Oh well, to
>each his own.
Persona was simply weird - the translations were far too literal,
and the attempts at localization were simply word replacements. Kartia,
OTOH, wasn't too bad - occasional grammar quirks aside, it read fairly
well and wasn't too jarring in its retention of Japanese common-usage
metaphor. The excellent characterization was kept reasonably intact -
credit where credit is due. Still, at times, the dialogue struck me as
a bit forced and/or colorless; an attemopt to rewrite it with common-use
English would've been appreciated.
Note: By "common-use" or "current-use," I am referring to the
way there are common embedded metaphors (mixed or nay) and contractions
used in conversational dialogue. Most of the time, dialogue trnaslated
literally (assuming no grammar errors - hah!) reads like bad prose.
Dialogue should be written with the conventions of English conversations
in mind; something WD seems to understand, for the most part, and other
translation houses do not. Rather than try to create natural sounding
dialogue, they often simply pick a term and a sentence structure that
has the highest correlation to the original Japanese meaning (and
sometimes trying to mix in corroborating vernacular, to awful effect),
resulting in something that sounds nothing like conversational English
and sounds absolutely cryptic when read by an American used to common-usage
English.
As I've often said, I don't really care about the retaining the
original meaning - I simply wish to be entertained. Unpolished and prosaic
dialogue does not entertain me, it baffles and irritates me. The creators
seem more than willing to let Vic alter the original meaning of their
dialogue and story, as well, at least implicitly, so I have absolutely no
problem with the changes he makes.
Victor Ireland
> Furthermore, as mentioned before in this and other groups, the game
> was delayed for at least 9 months (with admission of Vic himself
> recently to substanciate) because of his attempt to alter the names
> because he believes the originals were too japanese sounding. At
> NO TIME following the 18 month argumentive period with Kondansha was
> this brought to light by him, or any employee of Working Designs.
>
You're looking for a conspiracy where there is none. If you'll
check dejanews (which I generally assume all newsgroup users are
capable of using, hence I don't recap everything I've posted on
every successive post), you'll see that I ASKED the newsgroup
for suggestions on name changes. No secrets, unfortunately
for your theory.
--
Don't Believe the Hype -
Vic
Avatar
Enrique Conty wrote:
> In article <360a1042...@news.vmicro.com>,
> John Hokanson Jr. <yangn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I have followed Working Designs since the Sega CD days, and
> >now I will do so no more. What little respect I once harbored for the
> >company and the man in the president's chair is now but a memory.
>
> You've seen the light...
I'm -still- mystified at the venom that some of you guys throw at WD. I've
enjoyed pretty much everything that they've released on the Saturn and
Playstation both (with the possible exception of Elemental Gearbolt
<shrug>), and the general consensus of my customers is that their games
are high quality and funny to boot. Somebody comes in, asks about Persona,
I say "it's very Japanese." Personally, I don't find this to be a bad
thing, but a lot of people just can't (or have no reason to) vault the
culture gap.
Admittedly, some of the jokes they throw out are lame. It happens. Watch
Leno's monologue and you can see him bomb a joke three or four times a
week, and get paid WD's entire working budget for the week to do it.
Ah, well. I picked up a Saturn for the express purposes of playing
Rayearth on it (it was ludicrously cheap!), and I intend to do so. -I- am
a hell of a lot more worried about the quality of the dub than the opening
song, anyway. ;p
Avatar
--
"He'd been an angel once. He hadn't meant to Fall.
He'd just hung around with the wrong people."
Crowley, Good Omens
Aegis
(Victor Ireland) wrote:
Vic, this is an off topic question.
I made a pre order for Lunar Silver Start for the PS, and the price
they had was $54.99. I know you guys are listing it for $64.99. I hope
that you're only releasing the one type of game pack - the special
edition with the 4 CD's. This was their only listing, and I got a bit
worried. Is the special 4 CD version the ONLY version you'll be
releasing?
===================================================
-- Aegis -- ae...@voicenet.com
Continuum - Classic RPG game design/development
===================================================
"And maaaay daaa schwaartz bee wit youuuuououuOUUO
OOUOOOUOUOUUUOUOUOOOOWHADDAWORLDWADDAWORLD!"
- Yogurt
===================================================
Victor Ireland
says...
> Vic, this is an off topic question.
>
> I made a pre order for Lunar Silver Start for the PS, and the price
> they had was $54.99. I know you guys are listing it for $64.99. I hope
> that you're only releasing the one type of game pack - the special
> edition with the 4 CD's. This was their only listing, and I got a bit
> worried. Is the special 4 CD version the ONLY version you'll be
> releasing?
>
We're only releasing one retail version. There will be a rental-only
version with only 2 discs and a leaflet manual, but consumers won't be
able to purchase it.
John Hokanson Jr.
Doug. I'm sorry if I seemed a little harsh towards you.
I am of course very angry. And I think a fair number of the WD
defenders have fallen into a trap, and refuse to accept other forms
of reasoning besides Ireland's.
I've been fighting an uphill battle ever since Vic moved to the PSX
are garnered a whole complete new generation of fans to snag hook,
line, and sinker with his now arguable "pro gamer" rhetoric.
Rare Hero
Vic Wrote:
>>We're only releasing one retail version. There will be a rental-only
version with only 2 discs and a leaflet manual, but consumers won't be
able to purchase it.<<
Does that mean it will become a collectors item of sorts when the stores choose
to sell it off as a previously played game?
Greg
Kangaeru Hito
Castellan wrote in message <6ud1md$kvm$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>...
IMO it's small price to pay. At least you don't get so many pop-culture
refs. I mean, come on, I'm not an otaku zealot or anything, (well, I must
admit that I might be a little toward Grandia^_^) but I really think that
when the characters in a totally fantasy based world start spouting out
jokes about cable TV, Bill Clinton, and Wheaties, it just totally destroys
what believability the game might have.
"Sekizen no ie ni yokei ari, sekizen no tsudoi."
AngShan
>I have followed Working Designs since the Sega CD days, and
>now I will do so no more. What little respect I once harbored for the
>company and the man in the president's chair is now but a memory.
I have to side with John here. I too have been an avid fan of WD's since
their Sega CD days of Lunar, Vay, and Popful Mail, but ever since that time WD
has done nothing but frustrate and laugh at the very people with whom they so
hypocritically say "We're nothing without you!"
You either totally agree to be sheep to Vic's meglomania or you're
castigated for daring to speak up about the obvious problems with WD. The only
obvious "fanboys" here are the sheep that keep Vic's pompous attitude afloat.
He has continually lied and showed nothing but complete scorn the
long-suffering, and for the most part, former WD fans - the same people who
bought there games to buy him that throne he believes he sits on.
There will always be those who will listen to Vic's lies and
finger-pointing to ANYONE but himself or his own company. Those are the ones
who will swallow anything, hook, line, and sinker.
Not content with making a mockery of his own integrity, his company's, or
their former supporters, he now easily and frivolously makes mockeries of the
very games that he keeps denying us. Always dangling that carrot and getting a
good laugh at the sheep's expense, and with absolutely no concern about the
damage it causes.
As for as the "localized translation" remarks, they're total WD fanboy
rhetoric, probably spoon-fed to them by WD itself.
I'm sorry, but I don't think "American localization" means that the
translation is only good and "readable" if it reads like a Benny Hill script. I
don't consider American culture to be based upon an ongoing fart joke, Clinton
snipes, or 90130 escapades.
If Square and Konami are "too stiff" because they don't rely on a
storyline devoted to potty humor then please, add more starch to mine.
Vic says that WD is going FORWARD. If so he's driving the Titanic. They
have gone nowhere but downhill since their Sega CD days, and the fault, or
congratulations in Vic's case, rest squarely upon Vic himself.
His current reputation is finger-pointing, gross incompetance, and
providing an absolutely frustrating experience to WD's long-suffering fans.
Does he see the problem? No, he points fingers and makes jokes about it.
It is rather funny in a way. Vic rips into Stolar every chance that he
gets, but in reality they are practically twins. Stolar ignored the fans and
supporters of the Saturn and did not give a rat's butt about the Saturn, and
Vic is pretty much of the same philosophy as head of WD; ignoring or mocking
the concerns of their fans and supporters, ignoring the problems within his own
company, and not giving a rat's butt about the reputation of his own company as
long as he can point a finger or turn it into a mockery.
I too will not be buying Rayearth. He has frustrated, embarrassed, and
mocked us enough with it. It is an embarrasment all the way around; to the
fans, to WD, and to the game itself. And he expects us to pay for the
experience? No thanks. Sega can go nowhere but up without you. You didn't
leave a sinking ship. Sega left a sinking company that only deserved a table in
the far back corner of any gaming convention due to the embarrassment that you
have brought upon Sega, your fans, and your own company.
As you are "going FORWARD" everyone who is *really* concerned about WD is
screaming "Iceberg", but you're way too blind to see it. And when it does hit,
oh I'm sure you'll point the finger at the iceberg and try to pass all blame
onto it.
Shannon Taylor
Ang...@aol.com
ICQ # 13343362
Joe Ottoson
(AngShan) wrote:
> As for as the "localized translation" remarks, they're total WD fanboy
> rhetoric, probably spoon-fed to them by WD itself.
That's hardly fair. People *can* actually like WD's translations you know.
For every anachronistic joke WD throws in, there's scads of well written
dialogue that is often missing in other games. When the text flows better,
it reads better and the characters come across much more strongly and
realistically than if you're treated to a direct translation hack job.
(Please, the Japanese aren't the only people on earth capable of producing
a story...)
Criticise Vic for trying to shoot down the DC, get annoyed with him for his
personality, and how he's run his company, but don't drag down everyone
with non otaku Japan worshipping tastes just because Vic happens to operate
in the same circles. It's not fair to the people who like seeing English
treated as a language in games, and it encourages bad translations in
general...
Kangaeru Hito
Joe Ottoson wrote in message ...
>In article <19980924190204...@ng-fc2.aol.com>, ang...@aol.com
>(AngShan) wrote:
>
>
>> As for as the "localized translation" remarks, they're total WD
fanboy
>> rhetoric, probably spoon-fed to them by WD itself.
>
>That's hardly fair. People *can* actually like WD's translations you know.
>For every anachronistic joke WD throws in, there's scads of well written
>dialogue that is often missing in other games. When the text flows better,
>it reads better and the characters come across much more strongly and
>realistically than if you're treated to a direct translation hack job.
>(Please, the Japanese aren't the only people on earth capable of producing
>a story...)
>
Well, he's not saying that the entire translation is fanboy material, only
the localization remarks. Personally, I tend to agree that some of the
silly jokes are just tacked on to satiate WD fans have come to expect it
from them.
Also, does a direct translation neccesitate that it be poorly written and
converted into natural english? With my Grandia translation, I've strove to
make it both natural and remain very faithful to the original material.
Granted this is the first translation of any game material I've ever
attempted, but certainly it isn't doomed to sound like some hack job just
because I attempt to adhere closely to the original meaning.
"Sekizen no ie ni yokei ari, sekizen no tsudoi."
Translator for Dimension-S http://www.dimension-s.com
Maintainer of Grandia Translation at:
http://www.digiweb.com/~dimension-sega/import-gaming/resources/grandia/
Joe Ottoson
Hokanson Jr.) wrote:
> >> As for as the "localized translation" remarks, they're total WD fanboy
> >> rhetoric, probably spoon-fed to them by WD itself.
> >
> >That's hardly fair. People *can* actually like WD's translations you know.
> >For every anachronistic joke WD throws in, there's scads of well written
> >dialogue that is often missing in other games.
>
> No, I think what he's trying to say is that the notion that a game
> *requires* such delinquent humor to be successful and entertaining is
> a facet of WD's rhetoric. I'm apt to agree with him. It's certainly
> true that Vic believes most original dialogue is too stiff or
> highstrung for an american audience.
>
Well, that always figures in, but the humor's usually less than 5% of the
actual in game text so it's easy for me to ignore in the face of a well
thought out translation on the whole.
> >Criticise Vic for trying to shoot down the DC, get annoyed with him for his
> >personality, and how he's run his company, but don't drag down everyone
> >with non otaku Japan worshipping tastes just because Vic happens to operate
> >in the same circles.
>
> Fair enough. But it should be mentioned that what has finally turned
> me off of Vic for get is his attitude more then his business
> practices. Which according to yourself is an acceptable thing to be
> angry about.
>
I'll never say Vic's perfect by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't
think this actually qualifies as a full defense of anything but liking the
typical WD translation, so disliking WD is fine IMO. It's just when folks
start slapping others around with broad "you're a zombie if you like X!"
that it bugs me.
Joe Ottoson
(AngShan) wrote:
> >It's not fair to the people who like seeing English
> >treated as a language in games, and it encourages bad translations in
> >general...
>
> I am not an anime otaku either. English is pretty much my only language
> too, so I would love to see well-written and translated games.
> But the way I read your original message it seemed that you were
defending
> if not actually glorifying potty humor as a staple ingredient to what makes an
> english translation successful, even to the point of putting down attempts of
> maintaining the original storyline as being too "stiff and colorless"...as if
> potty/juvenille humor was the only way to properly come across to an
> english-speaking audience. THAT is what I took offense too.
I can't say I was glorifying potty humor at all actually. At best I said it
takes up a tiny amount of the actual game and the rest more than makes up
for anachronistic and/or lewd jokes.
Compared to the travesty that's Persona, I'd take WD's localizations over
"Yo! Wassup!" any day.
> I love to see well-written translations, but I really think WD's
> "colorful" way of translating is more than a bit excessive, and for him or
> anyone to defend potty/juvenille humor as a requirement for a good RPG is just
> simply ludicrous beyond belief to me.
>
IMO, your'e still painting folks with too broad a brush here.
Joe Ottoson
(AngShan) wrote:
> >It's not fair to the people who like seeing English
> >treated as a language in games, and it encourages bad translations in
> >general...
>
> Oops! I got off on a rant and forgot the heart of the matter. I believe
> that WD's "colorful translations" are both a disservice to english-speaking
> audiences as well as encouragement to bad translations if it gives the
attitude
> that potty humor and fart jokes are a requirement to gain an American
audience.
> I mean, really, what does that say about us???
Nothing except that Vic has an odd sense of humor at times.
> It is Working Designs that is encouraging the acceptance of bad
> translations by keeping the english language in the gutter as the only way to
> sell RPGS's in America.
IMO, gutter's a tad overharsh for any of WD's recent attempts. Dragonforce
mentioned a phone company, Stuart Smalley, and Superfly, but I wouldn't
call anything in that game garbage or signs of moral decay. (Except for
Gongos and his banana)
> Again, what does this say about us by encouraging such a belief?
>
If it was happening as strongly as it used to, you'd have a point. As it
is, WD's getting mellower, not raunchier.
Joe Ottoson
<gat...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Well, he's not saying that the entire translation is fanboy material, only
> the localization remarks. Personally, I tend to agree that some of the
> silly jokes are just tacked on to satiate WD fans have come to expect it
> from them.
>
Well, saying that only fanboys are blind enough to enjoy a game with off
color references kinda precludes the possibility of any kind of freedom of
choice on the matter. Either you hate potty humor, or you're a drooling WD
fanboy? Please.
> Also, does a direct translation neccesitate that it be poorly written and
> converted into natural english?
It seems to be the case in most professional attempts. Also, if you read
Mangajin, they routinely print disclaimers saying that they've sacrificed
more natural sounding English in favor of keeping the meaning closest to
the Japanese intent. So I tend to view direct translations as incomplete
and ultimately inexact since they eschew the intent (and sometimes even the
context) of the words in favor of a faster translation.
With my Grandia translation, I've strove to
> make it both natural and remain very faithful to the original material.
> Granted this is the first translation of any game material I've ever
> attempted, but certainly it isn't doomed to sound like some hack job just
> because I attempt to adhere closely to the original meaning.
>
It's possible to do both, but it's rarely done totally effectively.
(working with a game like Grandia makes it easier since you have the voice
acting all the way through and the characters seem to be more human than
the standard melodramatic RPG anyway ;) I'd personally rather read a
translation that retained the intent over the literal meaning more often
that not however.
Victor Ireland
> I love to see well-written translations, but I really think WD's
> "colorful" way of translating is more than a bit excessive, and for him or
> anyone to defend potty/juvenille humor as a requirement for a good RPG is just
> simply ludicrous beyond belief to me.
>
When did I ever say it was a REQUIREMENT for a good RPG? I think you're
paraphrasing your interpretation of my words, which are generally that:
US RPG translations are far too literal, stiff, and boring. They SHOULD
be rewritten into colloquial English, as we attempt to do with every
one of our games. The fact that I also personally am honest enough to
admit that mild potty humor can be funny, and yes, appropriate doesn't
mean that it HAS to be included, just that I find it entertaining, and
our <overall> growing fanbase does as well, or they wouldn't be writing
FAXing, E-mailing, and most importantly, BUYING our games.
I *could* do a well-written RPG with no potty or wack humor (Alundra is
pretty darn close), but it wouldn't ring true, and I wouldn't want to
live with it for 6-9 months while it was in production. Humor is my
personal drug of choice (well,...ahem...next to Mountain Dew).
Victor Ireland
> Oops! I got off on a rant and forgot the heart of the matter. I believe
> that WD's "colorful translations" are both a disservice to english-speaking
> audiences as well as encouragement to bad translations if it gives the attitude
> that potty humor and fart jokes are a requirement to gain an American audience.
> I mean, really, what does that say about us???
>
Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has jokes
about homosexuality say about the Japanese?
Victor Ireland
> EXACTLY! And it's *her*, not *him* thankyouverymuch. :)
> Although I would change that last sentence to read that "It's certainly
> true that Vic believes most original dialogue is too mature and intelligent for
> an American audience." :-/
>
Had you done any translations, you would know how hilarious this statement is.
Most dialogue in Japanese RPG's is incredibly simplistic.
Victor Ireland
> >I *could* do a well-written RPG with no potty or wack humor (Alundra is
> >pretty darn close), but it wouldn't ring true, and I wouldn't want to
> >live with it for 6-9 months while it was in production. Humor is my
> >personal drug of choice (well,...ahem...next to Mountain Dew).
>
> Just for that alone I really think that you should reconsider! :D Wow! An
> actual WD RPG, well-written and faithful to its original premise...all within
> 6-9 months time. It would be an absolute dream come true!
>
Hmm, Alundra falls into this category recently. We licensed it in June and released
it in January. And, according to many Landstalker fans it WAS a dream come
true. Your wish has been granted. Thank me later.
John Hokanson Jr.
these famous last words:
>In article <360a1042...@news.vmicro.com>, yangn...@hotmail.com says...
>> Furthermore, as mentioned before in this and other groups, the game
>> was delayed for at least 9 months (with admission of Vic himself
>> recently to substanciate) because of his attempt to alter the names
>> because he believes the originals were too japanese sounding. At
>> NO TIME following the 18 month argumentive period with Kondansha was
>> this brought to light by him, or any employee of Working Designs.
>>
>
>You're looking for a conspiracy where there is none. If you'll
>check dejanews (which I generally assume all newsgroup users are
>capable of using, hence I don't recap everything I've posted on
>every successive post), you'll see that I ASKED the newsgroup
>for suggestions on name changes. No secrets, unfortunately
>for your theory.
>
And if you reread my original statement you will see that I said at
no time to my knowledge *FOLLOWING* the 18 month period did you
make clear that you first argued for the original names.
Quite the difference. Everybody after the 18 months just as well
assumed you wanted the originals right from the world go. Nor in the
times that I saw people claim this, did you make any move to correct
it.
Thus, I don't think anything I said was wrong.
John Hokanson Jr.
these famous last words:
>In article <19980924190204...@ng-fc2.aol.com>, ang...@aol.com
>(AngShan) wrote:
>
>
>> As for as the "localized translation" remarks, they're total WD fanboy
>> rhetoric, probably spoon-fed to them by WD itself.
>
>That's hardly fair. People *can* actually like WD's translations you know.
>For every anachronistic joke WD throws in, there's scads of well written
>dialogue that is often missing in other games.
No, I think what he's trying to say is that the notion that a game
*requires* such delinquent humor to be successful and entertaining is
a facet of WD's rhetoric. I'm apt to agree with him. It's certainly
true that Vic believes most original dialogue is too stiff or
highstrung for an american audience.
>Criticise Vic for trying to shoot down the DC, get annoyed with him for his
>personality, and how he's run his company, but don't drag down everyone
>with non otaku Japan worshipping tastes just because Vic happens to operate
>in the same circles.
Fair enough. But it should be mentioned that what has finally turned
me off of Vic for get is his attitude more then his business
practices. Which according to yourself is an acceptable thing to be
angry about.
I
John "Gameman" Hokanson Jr.
AngShan
>It's not fair to the people who like seeing English
>treated as a language in games, and it encourages bad translations in
>general...
I am not an anime otaku either. English is pretty much my only language
too, so I would love to see well-written and translated games.
But the way I read your original message it seemed that you were defending
if not actually glorifying potty humor as a staple ingredient to what makes an
english translation successful, even to the point of putting down attempts of
maintaining the original storyline as being too "stiff and colorless"...as if
potty/juvenille humor was the only way to properly come across to an
english-speaking audience. THAT is what I took offense too.
I love to see well-written translations, but I really think WD's
"colorful" way of translating is more than a bit excessive, and for him or
anyone to defend potty/juvenille humor as a requirement for a good RPG is just
simply ludicrous beyond belief to me.
Shannon Taylor
Ang...@aol.com
ICQ # 13343362
AngShan
>It's not fair to the people who like seeing English
>treated as a language in games, and it encourages bad translations in
>general...
Oops! I got off on a rant and forgot the heart of the matter. I believe
that WD's "colorful translations" are both a disservice to english-speaking
audiences as well as encouragement to bad translations if it gives the attitude
that potty humor and fart jokes are a requirement to gain an American audience.
I mean, really, what does that say about us???
It is Working Designs that is encouraging the acceptance of bad
translations by keeping the english language in the gutter as the only way to
sell RPGS's in America.
Again, what does this say about us by encouraging such a belief?
AngShan
>No, I think what he's trying to say is that the notion that a game
>*requires* such delinquent humor to be successful and entertaining is
>a facet of WD's rhetoric. I'm apt to agree with him. It's certainly
>true that Vic believes most original dialogue is too stiff or
>highstrung for an american audience.
EXACTLY! And it's *her*, not *him* thankyouverymuch. :)
Although I would change that last sentence to read that "It's certainly
true that Vic believes most original dialogue is too mature and intelligent for
an American audience." :-/
Shannon Taylor
Ang...@aol.com
ICQ # 13343362
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
> In article <360a1042...@news.vmicro.com>, yangn...@hotmail.com says...
> > Furthermore, as mentioned before in this and other groups, the game
> > was delayed for at least 9 months (with admission of Vic himself
> > recently to substanciate) because of his attempt to alter the names
> > because he believes the originals were too japanese sounding. At
> > NO TIME following the 18 month argumentive period with Kondansha was
> > this brought to light by him, or any employee of Working Designs.
> >
>
> You're looking for a conspiracy where there is none. If you'll
> check dejanews (which I generally assume all newsgroup users are
> capable of using, hence I don't recap everything I've posted on
> every successive post), you'll see that I ASKED the newsgroup
> for suggestions on name changes. No secrets, unfortunately
> for your theory.
Why change the names, though? I hope it isn't just because they're "too
Japanese sounding".
-ZFP
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Colt Duncan
Very well said Doug. I too think people are taking this FAR too seriously.
The only thing I was a little pissed about was the further delay recording
the new song caused. I just can't understand why people should be mad at a
funny joke that caused no harm whatsoever (except for making everyone
falling for it look more foolish than ever).
Colt Duncan
AngShan
>If it was happening as strongly as it used to, you'd have a point. As it
>is, WD's getting mellower, not raunchier.
I will admit to that... I just hope that it continues.... I would *HOPE*
that Vic would treat the female characters of MKR with a slight modicrum of
decency, and not turn Lunar into a juvenille farce.
Vic may enjoy mocking those of us who like those characters, but they do
deserve to be treated with the dignity and respect that caused them to garner
the fanbase and popularity that they do have.
I personally would rather not see them done at all than to have them put
through the indignities of another Albert Odyssey treatment.
What worries me is that with that "fake MKR song" that Vic enjoyed
tormenting MKR fans with will also end up showing up in the game itself.
Vic not only lowered himself on that one, but also his company's
reputation as well. If he was willing to do that then just how low *is* he
willing to go to show his scorn of the very fans of the games that he has
control of?
To me it seems that his detractors, me included, seem to remember a former
greatness and nobility of the WD standard that he personally no longer
possesses. As the head of WD he seems to be doing a greater job of tearing
down the image of WD than any of his detractors could ever hope to accomplish.
We're harshly speaking out of the decay of WD's former greatness, while
Vic seems to be doing his very best to make sure that those fears are fully
realized...and make sure that WD and any true RPG that he gets his hands on
suffer for it.
There is still no honest and true release date for MKR. Lunar has been
completely denied to the Sega system and fans that spawned it, and is now
beginning its hopeless trek into the lifelong delays that killed it for us.
How long before the frustration grows with the Sony delays before Vic
lashes out against Lunar fans, and what antagonistic tricks will he end up
playing on the long-suffering fans of that game as well?
And this is the WD that we held in such high regard?
Quinn Seed
Vic wrote...
"Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has jokes
about homosexuality say about the Japanese?"
heh heh..probably the same thing that Lunar EB 'said' when Ruby made those
comments about Leo =D
For Gods SAKE....what, is someone going to hire an inpependent counsel against
Victor Ireland? He's been deflecting these kinds of posts for months and
months...we aren't going to change his mind, so what's the use? In fact,
constantly calling him out and beckoning him in here is only going to increase
the 'delay of game' (I'm exagerating) I'm not yellin' at no one...guess now
even *I'M* getting tired of this industry insider melodrama. Now I understand
why there aren't any other company presidents in the Usenet. And just to clear
any fog, I am NOT defending Vic. At all.
~Quinn Fox
~Creator, ''the Players'' fansite
~http://members.aol.com/quinnseed/theplayers.html
AngShan
>Had you done any translations, you would know how hilarious this statement
>is.
>Most dialogue in Japanese RPG's is incredibly simplistic.
Actually, I have. Go ahead and send the next one to me. Lord knows that
there's no way I could be any slower than your current group of
translators...or translator...or the janitor...whoever you use...
AngShan
>Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has
>jokes
>about homosexuality say about the Japanese?
Umm...that you're not only into mocking the American fans but the Japanese
as well? But one thing I'm sure of, you'll probably surely want to faithfully
keep those lines intact, don't you?
As such, my argument stands. :)
I know that you know that I'm gay myself, so I'll keep it brief. I have
endured those kinds of jokes for most of my life. What does it say about the
Japanese? The same as everywhere, and the same with certain aspects of the
humor in your games and what was done with MKR; Humor at the expense of others
is not very funny when you like to see people hurt.
AngShan
>I *could* do a well-written RPG with no potty or wack humor (Alundra is
>pretty darn close), but it wouldn't ring true, and I wouldn't want to
>live with it for 6-9 months while it was in production. Humor is my
>personal drug of choice (well,...ahem...next to Mountain Dew).
So, if you didn't use potty humor you could get an RPG out in 6-9 months?!
Just for that alone I really think that you should reconsider! :D Wow! An
actual WD RPG, well-written and faithful to its original premise...all within
6-9 months time. It would be an absolute dream come true!
Shannon Taylor
Ang...@aol.com
ICQ # 13343362
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
ang...@aol.com (AngShan) wrote:
>
> As for as the "localized translation" remarks, they're total WD fanboy
> rhetoric, probably spoon-fed to them by WD itself.
> translation is only good and "readable" if it reads like a Benny Hill script.
I
> don't consider American culture to be based upon an ongoing fart joke, Clinton
> snipes, or 90130 escapades.
> If Square and Konami are "too stiff" because they don't rely on a
> storyline devoted to potty humor then please, add more starch to mine.
Amen! It's so refreshing to hear someone else complaining about the
immature, inappropriate WD translations. I wonder how Vic defends them, in
the face of increasingly accurate translations by other companies, ie:
Capcom/BoF3, Square/SaGa Frontier, Square-EA/Parasite Eve/Xenogears, etc...
All of these translations are flawless, as far as I can see, and SaGa and
BoF3 sounded quite natural to me.
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
Avatar <ak...@pdq.net> wrote:
>
> I'm -still- mystified at the venom that some of you guys throw at WD. I've
> enjoyed pretty much everything that they've released on the Saturn and
> Playstation both (with the possible exception of Elemental Gearbolt
> <shrug>), and the general consensus of my customers is that their games
> are high quality and funny to boot. Somebody comes in, asks about Persona,
> I say "it's very Japanese." Personally, I don't find this to be a bad
> thing, but a lot of people just can't (or have no reason to) vault the
> culture gap.
Persona was "very Japanese"? Why? As to "their" games, the game quality
isn't their doing, and I can't see how anyone beyond grade school would think
they were funny. I'm sorry, I just don't think barfing and farting are funny
anymore, and the anachronistic pop culture references just seem out of place.
Most of the stuff in their games I found funny is stuff that must have been
in the original version, ie: sight gags in the anime scenes, etc...
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) wrote:
>
> As I've often said, I don't really care about the retaining the
> original meaning - I simply wish to be entertained. Unpolished and prosaic
> dialogue does not entertain me, it baffles and irritates me. The creators
> seem more than willing to let Vic alter the original meaning of their
> dialogue and story, as well, at least implicitly, so I have absolutely no
> problem with the changes he makes.
Well, fuck you. I'm sorry, but the original meaning is more than a little
important to me. No wonder WD's translations don't bother you. I have never
seen a dub with better voice acting or better songs than the original
Japanese, and I don't think WD's "localized" translations would stand up well
beside a loyal, yet accurate translation. Check out BoF3 or SaGa Frontier,
or maybe the Xenogears demo. All seem fairly natural, accurate, yet without
inappropriate humor or pop culture references. Who finds those funny anyway?
I got sick of potty humor in grade school, and references to Clinton and
Wheaties just seem out of place. Modern slang doesn't belong in the middle
ages. I think what pisses me off most about WD is that they seem to beleive
that they can do better than the game's original staff. I'm sorry, but these
big companies have far better writers at work than WD. They should stick to
translating, and not try to be too creative.
John Hokanson Jr.
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) echoed these famous last
words:
riting
>
>I *could* do a well-written RPG with no potty or wack humor (Alundra is
>pretty darn close), but it wouldn't ring true, and I wouldn't want to
>live with it for 6-9 months while it was in production. Humor is my
>personal drug of choice (well,...ahem...next to Mountain Dew).
>
Which of course ladies a gentleman caps off the point I made earlier
that Vic's modus operandi of translation is mostly forged by his
opinion and now, it seems, misgivings to not leaving story aspects
alone in one way or another. Not fact. And maybe not even as a result
of popular opinion (although as Doug has pointed out to be, I will
conceed that it is certainly open for debate). Therefore those that
sit there and claim that all other translations are inferior or would
attack the "fanboys" for their attempt to scale back the childish
humor level have an extreamly paper thin argument if your going by
what Vic says.
John Hokanson Jr.
jaot...@hotmail.com (Joe Ottoson) echoed these famous last words:
>> I love to see well-written translations, but I really think WD's
>> "colorful" way of translating is more than a bit excessive, and for him or
>> anyone to defend potty/juvenille humor as a requirement for a good RPG is just
>> simply ludicrous beyond belief to me.
>>
>IMO, your'e still painting folks with too broad a brush here.
>
Don't you dare go there Joe. At the very most she's no more guilty
then Vic is for filing any complaints towards Rayeath's translations
into the "fanboy rant" bin. Or for some people openly chastising the
complaint I just lodged because I happened to be offened by Vic's
entrapment ploy.
Victor Ireland
And, joke aside, the initial ranters and those that posted constructive
criticism GOT what they wanted. The "joke" version added no time delay
and just filled the space while we mixed the real replacement. What
exists now is what they by and large were asking for, and instead of
concentrating on that, they would rather bitch and moan about our ballsy
move of fooling them in the interim.
Regardless, redoing the song was a positive experience, and made the
game better for it, so in the long run, no harm done.
Victor Ireland
> To me it seems that his detractors, me included, seem to remember a former
> greatness and nobility of the WD standard that he personally no longer
> possesses.
>
Please define this standard.
Victor Ireland
> >Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has
> >jokes
> >about homosexuality say about the Japanese?
>
> Umm...that you're not only into mocking the American fans but the Japanese
> as well? But one thing I'm sure of, you'll probably surely want to faithfully
> keep those lines intact, don't you?
> As such, my argument stands. :)
>
Actually, no. We thought the context was in bad taste and changed it to
something more innocuous.
Victor Ireland
>
I didn't, but thanks for sharing.
AngShan
>Actually, no. We thought the context was in bad taste and changed it to
>something more innocuous.
Are you serious? <sigh> Keep that up and I may actually have to start
praising your work. But in any case...thanks....
guy...@usa.net
Hokanson Jr.) wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:54:25 -0700, in rec.games.video.sega
>vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) echoed these famous last
>words:
>riting
>
>>
>>I *could* do a well-written RPG with no potty or wack humor (Alundra is
>>pretty darn close), but it wouldn't ring true, and I wouldn't want to
>>live with it for 6-9 months while it was in production. Humor is my
>>personal drug of choice (well,...ahem...next to Mountain Dew).
>>
>
>Which of course ladies a gentleman caps off the point I made earlier
>that Vic's modus operandi of translation is mostly forged by his
>opinion and now, it seems, misgivings to not leaving story aspects
>alone in one way or another. Not fact. And maybe not even as a result
>of popular opinion (although as Doug has pointed out to be, I will
>conceed that it is certainly open for debate). Therefore those that
>sit there and claim that all other translations are inferior or would
>attack the "fanboys" for their attempt to scale back the childish
>humor level have an extreamly paper thin argument if your going by
>what Vic says.
>
>
>
>
>John "Gameman" Hokanson Jr.
>gam...@usagi.com - yangn...@hotmail.com
>http://gameman.usagi.com/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"As with all things, the joy is in the going. We all know
>we're going to die, that as the poet said, "we are born
>astride the grave." But knowing that inevitable
>reality has never stopped human endeavor before...."
>
> - Joseph Michael Straczynski
>
>"It's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it goddamnit!!!"
>
> - Me
Your signature made me think of something. Joseph Michael Straczynski
takes plenty of flak over in the B5 newsgroups, some of it very petty.
But I've never seen him attack a poster or retaliate in any way. Why
can't Vic behave like that? And Mr Straczynski is always under a great
deal of stress. You can't possibly tell me that Victor Ireland is
under more stress than JMS.
John Hokanson Jr.
>In article <01bde83d$b3eacac0$9ea931cf@default>, fra...@pe.net says...
But it would've been just too much to ask that you just remix it one
more time and not decide to make us all suffer because some fans
didn't like it, right Vic?
You just *had* to show your moxie and ascert your position of
dominance over us poor peons.
John Hokanson Jr.
echoed these famous last words:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>John "Gameman" Hokanson Jr.
>>gam...@usagi.com - yangn...@hotmail.com
>>http://gameman.usagi.com/
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>"As with all things, the joy is in the going. We all know
>>we're going to die, that as the poet said, "we are born
>>astride the grave." But knowing that inevitable
>>reality has never stopped human endeavor before...."
>>
>> - Joseph Michael Straczynski
>>
>>"It's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it goddamnit!!!"
>>
>> - Me
>
>Your signature made me think of something. Joseph Michael Straczynski
>takes plenty of flak over in the B5 newsgroups, some of it very petty.
>But I've never seen him attack a poster or retaliate in any way. Why
>can't Vic behave like that? And Mr Straczynski is always under a great
>deal of stress. You can't possibly tell me that Victor Ireland is
>under more stress than JMS.
JMS's idea way of getting back is though action. Not subversion, and
ulterior motives. When he finished season 5, he didn't flaunt the fact
that he was successful when all others said he would fail. He simply
finished the show and he now wants to get out of television and go
back to being an author. He's also a piller of modesty.
Vic could use a good shot of humility right about now.
John Hokanson Jr.
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) echoed these famous last
words:
>In article <19980925020414...@ng-cr1.aol.com>, ang...@aol.com says...
>> >Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has
>> >jokes
>> >about homosexuality say about the Japanese?
>>
>> Umm...that you're not only into mocking the American fans but the Japanese
>> as well? But one thing I'm sure of, you'll probably surely want to faithfully
>> keep those lines intact, don't you?
>> As such, my argument stands. :)
>>
>
>Actually, no. We thought the context was in bad taste and changed it to
>something more innocuous.
>
One of these days your going to have to draw be a chart on how the EB
homosexuality jokes and the SSS homosexuality jokes contrast so
remarkably that you discard one and keep the other.
AngShan
>Hmm, Alundra falls into this category recently. We licensed it in June and
>released
>it in January. And, according to many Landstalker fans it WAS a dream come
>true. Your wish has been granted. Thank me later.
Nice try but no dice. Sony did the actual coding, as reported by nearly
everyone in the vidgame business, and which you never denied - probably to
actually get the game out faster in order to have WD's logo on a PSX product to
get your feather in their cap. :)
If you want the credit you have to do the work yourself (WD that is).
SR Dominguez
> Amen! It's so refreshing to hear someone else complaining about the
> immature, inappropriate WD translations. I wonder how Vic defends them, in
> the face of increasingly accurate translations by other companies, ie:
> Capcom/BoF3, Square/SaGa Frontier, Square-EA/Parasite Eve/Xenogears, etc...
> All of these translations are flawless, as far as I can see, and SaGa and
> BoF3 sounded quite natural to me.
On the one hand, I seem to remember that Vic admitted that EB might have
been over the top at one point. Sorry if I'm wrong Vic, but points for that
if you did. On the other hand, I couldn't really begrudge him the
translation of Vay. It would have been a different matter if it had been a
hotly anticipated title, but taking an RPG and reprogramming all the text to
say things like "God, I'm bored of walking up and down on the spot" is one
of my dreams. What I wouldn't give to still have my SNES disk drive so I
could reprogram Super Ninja Boy or Secret of the Stars. Of course, my
version would be a little more Monty Python and a little less Beavis and
Butthead. (Note: I didn't say South Park. Comparison to South Park is high
praise indeed in my book. Well, before it went rubbish, anyway.)
Is there any relevance at all to this followup? With hindsight, I can't find
any.
*SUNSET BEACH*GRANDIA*GOLDENEYE 007*
(Memo to myself - none of the above are real)
Simon Rafael Dominguez (u5...@ugd.keele.ac.uk)
Cap_Cosmic
Victor Ireland wrote in message ...
>In article <19980925014857...@ng-cr1.aol.com>, ang...@aol.com
says...
>> >I *could* do a well-written RPG with no potty or wack humor (Alundra is
>> >pretty darn close), but it wouldn't ring true, and I wouldn't want to
>> >live with it for 6-9 months while it was in production. Humor is my
>> >personal drug of choice (well,...ahem...next to Mountain Dew).
>>
months?!
>> Just for that alone I really think that you should reconsider! :D Wow!
An
>> actual WD RPG, well-written and faithful to its original premise...all
within
>> 6-9 months time. It would be an absolute dream come true!
>>
>
released
>it in January. And, according to many Landstalker fans it WAS a dream come
>true. Your wish has been granted. Thank me later.
>
>Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic
Alundra free of potty humor? It wasn't originally. I heard that the reason
that Alundra was delayed was b/c of some idiotic & moronic sexual innuendo
text in the game.
Tell me I'm wrong. Go ahead & try and deny it.
Victor Ireland
> Alundra free of potty humor? It wasn't originally. I heard that the reason
> that Alundra was delayed was b/c of some idiotic & moronic sexual innuendo
> text in the game.
>
> Tell me I'm wrong. Go ahead & try and deny it.
>
Actually, I said "pretty darn close" to free. Look it up.
There was ONE line that we were made to take out of the game as too
suggestive (it was a double entendre, actually), but that line
removal did not delay the game.
Victor Ireland
> >Actually, no. We thought the context was in bad taste and changed it to
> >something more innocuous.
>
> praising your work. But in any case...thanks....
>
We didn't do it to qualify for sainthood. In *that particular* case, it
was out of place and unfunny, so we canned it. There are plenty of other
places were we added humor to offend. The point is that we don't just
cram as much offensive humor in a game as we can to offend everyone, but
that we strive to ENTERTAIN the AVERAGE RPG enthusiast. There is a plan,
and no, not every stick of dialogue will entertain everyone.
Victor Ireland
> But it would've been just too much to ask that you just remix it one
> more time and not decide to make us all suffer because some fans
> didn't like it, right Vic?
>
The only ones "suffering" are the ones that are taking this far too
seriously.
Victor Ireland
>
> One of these days your going to have to draw be a chart on how the EB
> homosexuality jokes and the SSS homosexuality jokes contrast so
> remarkably that you discard one and keep the other.
>
Well, one was funny, and one wasn't. The funny one stayed, the unfunny
one went. Simple as that. And, the EB gag was implied, NOT overt.
Victor Ireland
> Nice try but no dice. Sony did the actual coding, as reported by nearly
> everyone in the vidgame business, and which you never denied - probably to
> actually get the game out faster in order to have WD's logo on a PSX product to
> get your feather in their cap. :)
> If you want the credit you have to do the work yourself (WD that is).
>
Your point being? LUNAR was recoded by Game Arts, we just did the text and audio.
LUNAR EB - ditto. It's quite common. The text and audio is by FAR the most labor-
intensive part of a localization process. LUNAR 1 and 2 were late. Alundra was
not. Very fair comparison, except that it doesn't fit your "WD sucks and is always
and forever late, and even worse now" generalization.
AngShan
>> To me it seems that his detractors, me included, seem to remember a
>former
>> greatness and nobility of the WD standard that he personally no longer
>> possesses.
>
>Please define this standard.
Okay, I'll do my best. But you'll also have to think back on the Sega CD
era when Working Designs really came into its own...
Sure, your company existed as a videogame distributor before the coming of
the Sega CD...and it exists now...but the era of the Sega CD is where Working
Designs really showed what they were capable of and where they picked up their
legion of loyal fans.
Back then WD promised quality and RPG gaming experiences like no other.
And they delivered
Lunar Silver Star, Vay, Popful Mail, Lunar Eternal Blue... Three true
RPG's and one action RPG, but every one a truly remarkable game. And all
delivered within what? 2 1/2 years. A feat in itself that you have never been
able to match since.
Those four games alone amassed your greatest fame as well as a legion of
loyal fans. WD promised quality, gaming experiences like no other, and they
delivered. They were seemingly unstoppable.
Even when the Saturn was still on the horizon, fans flocked to the Saturn
as much because of Working Designs as anything even Sega was going to offer.
The very fact that WD was on the Sega bandwagon was enough to get most
vidgame magazines to hail the Saturn as the "console of choice" for RPG'ers.
Nintendo had SquareSoft but Sega had Working Designs. If anyone could
trump Square it was WD. The promise of Magic Knight RayEarth and a new Lunar
probably sold as many systems as anything else promised for the Saturn.
Working Designs committment to RPG excellence was second to none. Their
games were powerful, emotional, and absolute masterpieces.
Working Designs devoted themselves fully to the project at hand and the
quality was untouchable, as proven by your efforts during the Sega CD era.
You promised the best, and you delivered.
But that was in the time of the Sega CD...
Something happened between then and the Saturn... WD lost its impetus.
It's bold plans mired. The legions of fans proud boasts that WD would easily
trounce Square's arrival on the PSX and their vaunted Final Fantasy would meet
WD's FF7. Lunar was coming! And then Grandia to vault Sega and WD over the
competition and not look back. Such was the faith in Working Designs.
But the promised flagship titles never came... Delay met delay after
delay... WD faltered with Shining Wisdom. Showed that there was still a
glimmer of hope with Dragon Force, but then stumbled again heavily with Albert
Odyssey...while MKR and Lunar languished along with the disheartened legions.
The RPG's were here but they were on the Playstation. As for WD and Sega;
Lunar never showed. MKR languishes still in perpetual delays. Grandia...a
hopeful wish that would never be... No flagship title, no epic RPG... WD,
the RPG powerhouse of the Sega CD era and RPG flagship of the Sega Saturn was
quiet...it's big guns never fired...the standard it had set for itself and
believed in by its former legion of fans is now only a memory of that
once-upon-a-time when Working Designs really meant something special...
Please define this standard? Vic, if you can't remember the standard that you
lived up to back then...which was strong enough to make all of us believe as
well, then I guess I was right in what I said to even have you ask that...
This is the 53rd message in this one day old thread, Vic. 53 and counting. It
has practically taken over the newsgroup. If the standard that you had achieved
not been so great, your fans so loyal and remembering your former glory days so
well, then how do you explain such an outpouring of messages?
Because we remember, and we wish to God that you and WD remembered how you
were as fondly as we do...maybe then the glory days would return, and your
standard high enough to rally back the legions that still *want* to believe.
AngShan
>Very fair comparison, except that it doesn't fit your "WD sucks and is always
>and forever late, and even worse now" generalization.
Okay, how about this generalization then; "There's always an exception to
every rule." So I'll keep my generalization and you can have this one. :)
Demian Phillips
>Ah, well. I picked up a Saturn for the express purposes of playing
>Rayearth on it (it was ludicrously cheap!), and I intend to do so. -I- am
>a hell of a lot more worried about the quality of the dub than the opening
>song, anyway. ;p
>
>Avatar
Most of the posts on this subject haven't made me want to de-lurk, but
now I have a reason.
most people posting this thread have only seen working designs on
saturn, and playstation.
I had, and still have my good old' turbo-duo (US ver of the
PC-Engine).
And back then I didn't have many problems with working designs..
(other than I was miffed when they stopped bringing over games. b4 the
system died) but their voice actors were, and as I recall from a few
saturn still are BAD, as in BAD AMERICAN DUBBING. now not all of them
sound like emotionless twits reading awkwardly from a card, many had
the ability to act with their voice, but they were bad.with the kind
of voice they used and tended to overact so badly that the cheese
level shot up quite far, as well as the whole corny jokes thing. I
will support them as they have brought over quite a few good titles,
but I do with a better quality product could come out.
sorry if I rambled on ...
"Engage Lurking Device Now"
-
^_^
Demian Phillips
Castellan
>In article <6ud1md$kvm$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>,
> douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) wrote:
>>
>> As I've often said, I don't really care about the retaining the
>> original meaning - I simply wish to be entertained. Unpolished and prosaic
>> dialogue does not entertain me, it baffles and irritates me. The creators
>> seem more than willing to let Vic alter the original meaning of their
>> dialogue and story, as well, at least implicitly, so I have absolutely no
>> problem with the changes he makes.
>Well, fuck you. I'm sorry, but the original meaning is more than a little
>important to me. No wonder WD's translations don't bother you. I have never
>seen a dub with better voice acting or better songs than the original
>Japanese, and I don't think WD's "localized" translations would stand up well
>beside a loyal, yet accurate translation. Check out BoF3 or SaGa Frontier,
>or maybe the Xenogears demo. All seem fairly natural, accurate, yet without
>inappropriate humor or pop culture references. Who finds those funny anyway?
You're kidding, right? For natural sounding English dialogue, NONE
of the above games even come CLOSE to a WD translation (and I'm *not*, nor
have I been referring to the "potty" jokes) - SaGa Frontier is absolutely
abysmal. As a person with a fairly extensive literary background,
I find the recent translations of Square works to be laughably stiff and
unnatural. BoF3 isn't bad, but Capcom USA also took far more liberties with the
material than they had with previous games. As for "inappropriate humor,"
do you really think the original had a dolphin speaking colloquial Australian
English? I have yet to play the Xenogears demo, but, if reads anything like
Parasite Eve's translation, I'm sure it'll pretty uncomfortable for anyone
possessing a reasonable level of literacy to read.
> I got sick of potty humor in grade school, and references to Clinton and
>Wheaties just seem out of place. Modern slang doesn't belong in the middle
>ages. I think what pisses me off most about WD is that they seem to beleive
>that they can do better than the game's original staff. I'm sorry, but these
>big companies have far better writers at work than WD. They should stick to
>translating, and not try to be too creative.
Again, what I said had NOTHING to do with the "potty humor," and
everything to do with the way dialogue is written in general.
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
SegaNet: http://www.seganet.com/ for Sega-related info ICQ#: 12822495
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
Castellan
> To me it seems that his detractors, me included, seem to remember a former
>greatness and nobility of the WD standard that he personally no longer
>possesses. As the head of WD he seems to be doing a greater job of tearing
>down the image of WD than any of his detractors could ever hope to accomplish.
Lord Almighty, it's no wonder you're taking this so seriously -
you have a definite thing for stifling drama. Rather than participating
in this thread, don't you think your need for maudlin displays of
melodrama would be better suited by watching Titanic for the umpteenth time?
Damn. I swear, the anti-WD brigade has to be the biggest collection
of sentimental and melodramatic folk this side of preteen girls. It's no
wonder, then, that colloquialism and so-called "potty humor" get them in
a tizzy. Vic, you'll never please 'em.
Nikkou
How about the Ruroni Kenshin RPG for the PSX? We'll think about it then. ;)
(Hey! I don't have a Saturn! All these Sega threads are pure amusement for
me.)
-Nikkou.
--
Nikkou Harvey<nik...@anipike.com>
"Anime and Manga". Exercise your imagination today.
Anime Web Turnpike: http://www.anipike.com/
European mirror site: http://anime.jyu.fi/~anipike/
Castellan
>On the one hand, I seem to remember that Vic admitted that EB might have
>been over the top at one point. Sorry if I'm wrong Vic, but points for that
>if you did. On the other hand, I couldn't really begrudge him the
>translation of Vay. It would have been a different matter if it had been a
>hotly anticipated title, but taking an RPG and reprogramming all the text to
>say things like "God, I'm bored of walking up and down on the spot" is one
>of my dreams.
You too, huh? God, I love meta-humor. :)
Castellan
>Vic wrote...
>"Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has jokes
>about homosexuality say about the Japanese?"
>heh heh..probably the same thing that Lunar EB 'said' when Ruby made those
>comments about Leo =D
>For Gods SAKE....what, is someone going to hire an inpependent counsel against
>Victor Ireland? He's been deflecting these kinds of posts for months and
>months...we aren't going to change his mind, so what's the use? In fact,
>constantly calling him out and beckoning him in here is only going to increase
>the 'delay of game' (I'm exagerating) I'm not yellin' at no one...guess now
>even *I'M* getting tired of this industry insider melodrama. Now I understand
>why there aren't any other company presidents in the Usenet. And just to clear
>any fog, I am NOT defending Vic. At all.
Welcome to the elite, Quinn. You're one of US, now. ;)
Technically, I'm not defending Vic, either; I'm as tired as anyone
else of his inability to formulate an accurate release date. However, when
you've been on USENET for as long as I have, you really get tired of seeing
people take their FEELINGS so damn seriously around here.
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) wrote:
>
> You're kidding, right? For natural sounding English dialogue, NONE
> of the above games even come CLOSE to a WD translation (and I'm *not*, nor
> have I been referring to the "potty" jokes) - SaGa Frontier is absolutely
> abysmal.
Natural sounding English dialogue? Perhaps you're forgetting, but none of
these games take place in America, 1998, nor are the characters all American
teens. Dialogue riddled with colloquialisms and pop culture references is not
natural or appropriate. I still can't forget a screenshot I saw of one of
their games where a castle guard threatened to "open a can of whup-ass".
This does not sound like natural dialogue for the time period to me. Hell, I
don't even know anyone who talks like that. What literature do you read that
this sounds natural to you?
> I find the recent translations of Square works to be laughably stiff and
> unnatural. BoF3 isn't bad, but Capcom USA also took far more liberties with
the
> material than they had with previous games. As for "inappropriate humor,"
> do you really think the original had a dolphin speaking colloquial Australian
> English? I have yet to play the Xenogears demo, but, if reads anything like
> Parasite Eve's translation, I'm sure it'll pretty uncomfortable for anyone
> possessing a reasonable level of literacy to read.
I posess a very reasonable level of literacy, and I haven't had any problem
with any of these games. Sure, some get a bit odd at times, but the meaning
is intact and the genius of the original still shows through. I still have
to try to see past WD translations, since I think what they do to games is
pretty much on the level of a botched translation. I'll admit the
Austrailian dolphin was a bit much, but other than that... What was your
problem with SaGa? I was just playing it again recently, and I think the
dialogue is perfectly clear.
> Again, what I said had NOTHING to do with the "potty humor," and
> everything to do with the way dialogue is written in general.
But the "potty humor" is a part of the dialogue, as are references to Clinton,
Wheaties, etc... If they removed these, sure, the dialogue would be great.
-ZFP
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
IceTigger
Honestly! It's just a game, people. It's not like he's rewriting the
Bible so that everyone's name is "Phil."
...
You're not, are you Vic? ;)
>>>IceTigger<<<
Allan Liedtke
...snip...
> Back then WD promised quality and RPG gaming experiences like no other.
> And they delivered
> Lunar Silver Star, Vay, Popful Mail, Lunar Eternal Blue... Three true
> RPG's and one action RPG, but every one a truly remarkable game. And all
> delivered within what? 2 1/2 years. A feat in itself that you have never been
> able to match since.
This post matches my sentiments almost perfectly. Working Designs truly
shone brightly during the Sega CD era.
> Those four games alone amassed your greatest fame as well as a legion of
> loyal fans. WD promised quality, gaming experiences like no other, and they
> delivered. They were seemingly unstoppable.
... snip...
>... WD faltered with Shining Wisdom. Showed that there was still a
> glimmer of hope with Dragon Force, but then stumbled again heavily with Albert
> Odyssey...while MKR and Lunar languished along with the disheartened legions.
Here is the only spot this post strays from my opinion. I didn't think
that Shining Wisdom was all that bad. I actually enjoyed it. Also,
Iron Storm wasn't even mentioned. I think I am probably the biggest
Iron Storm fan the game has ever seen. A high quality title that is
reminiscent of Working Designs former glory.
I still have hope for WD. However, it is fading very quickly.
...more snipped...
--
Allan
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>
> When did I ever say it was a REQUIREMENT for a good RPG? I think you're
> paraphrasing your interpretation of my words, which are generally that:
>
> US RPG translations are far too literal, stiff, and boring. They SHOULD
> be rewritten into colloquial English, as we attempt to do with every
> one of our games.
Literal? Well good. When I buy FF7, I want FF7, not Vic's Own FF. Stiff
and boring? Maybe if you read a script, but I've never found dialogue in any
of these games to turn out that dull. Finally, there is a difference between
natural-sounding and colloquial. Modern, colloquial English is not
appropriate to the time period or genre of any of these games. They should
not be rewritten with modern slang or anachronistic references. Did the
Japanese versions have the Japanese equivalent of this? If not, there's no
reason it should be present in the American version.
> The fact that I also personally am honest enough to
> admit that mild potty humor can be funny, and yes, appropriate doesn't
> mean that it HAS to be included, just that I find it entertaining,
This sort of humor is not appropriate to the characters in any of your games,
as I understand them, or to your audiance. Both should be too old for this
sort of thing. It really ruins the mood.
> our <overall> growing fanbase does as well, or they wouldn't be writing
> FAXing, E-mailing, and most importantly, BUYING our games.
By this logic, I would argue that people must LOVE Square's admittedly
haphazard translation of FF7. After all, It certainly sold far more than any
of your games ever have. By the way, a lot of anime fans do tend to be
purists when it comes to translations, and a lot of your games do seem aimed
at the anime community. Why ailienate them? It doesn't make sense.
> I *could* do a well-written RPG with no potty or wack humor (Alundra is
> pretty darn close), but it wouldn't ring true, and I wouldn't want to
> live with it for 6-9 months while it was in production. Humor is my
> personal drug of choice (well,...ahem...next to Mountain Dew).
So the bottom line is, for all your talk about pleasing your audiance, you are
just doing whatever it is you want to do. Well, I guess I should've known.
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>
> Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has jokes
> about homosexuality say about the Japanese?
You know, I'm 99.9% certain that at least one of your games, perhaps it was
even Lunar:SSS, also had jokes about homosexuality.
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>
> Well, one was funny, and one wasn't. The funny one stayed, the unfunny
> one went. Simple as that. And, the EB gag was implied, NOT overt.
>
> was out of place and unfunny, so we canned it. There are plenty of other
> places were we added humor to offend. The point is that we don't just
> cram as much offensive humor in a game as we can to offend everyone, but
> that we strive to ENTERTAIN the AVERAGE RPG enthusiast. There is a plan,
> and no, not every stick of dialogue will entertain everyone.
Isn't it neat how Vic knows what's funny and what isn't? Sorry, if you'd
been loyal to the original Japanese text, you could shift the blame to them,
but by taking this path, the blame for the largely UNfunny dialogue in your
games lies squarely on your shoulders.
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
ang...@aol.com (AngShan) wrote:
>
> >> To me it seems that his detractors, me included, seem to remember a
> >former
> >> greatness and nobility of the WD standard that he personally no longer
> >> possesses.
> >
I like how he just ignores everything else the original poster said.
> Working Designs committment to RPG excellence was second to none. Their
> games were powerful, emotional, and absolute masterpieces.
> Working Designs devoted themselves fully to the project at hand and the
> quality was untouchable, as proven by your efforts during the Sega CD era.
> You promised the best, and you delivered.
>
> But that was in the time of the Sega CD...
Why is WD getting so much credit for their good games? I bet the Lunar
series was great when it was released in Japan, same with the other games.
All WD does is translate. If you want RPG excellenece, look to Square. Sure
the translations of their earlier PSX games had problems, but that doesn't
really detract from the quality of the original release. They've put a hell
of a lot more time, effort, and money into the genre than WD. They're also
making efforts to improve translation, as seen with PE and especially
Xenogears. Xenogears also seems to have better dubbing ( god I hope ) than
many of WD games. Thank god none of Square's games fell into WD's hands.
I'll take bruised English over inappropriate humor any day. I bet Barret
wouldn't have been the only one speaking in ebonics.
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
> has practically taken over the newsgroup. If the standard that you had
achieved
so
> well, then how do you explain such an outpouring of messages?
I fear many of them may be mine. :) It's just so nice to finally hear other
actually daring to attack WD, others who seem to feel the way I do, that I
just had to add my voice.
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>
> And, joke aside, the initial ranters and those that posted constructive
> criticism GOT what they wanted. The "joke" version added no time delay
> and just filled the space while we mixed the real replacement. What
> exists now is what they by and large were asking for, and instead of
> concentrating on that, they would rather bitch and moan about our ballsy
> move of fooling them in the interim.
Ballsy? What the fuck? All you did was yank the chain of your target
audiance! An audiance which, for the most part, is very picky about
translation accuracy and purity. Who do you think is going to buy a game
based on a somewhat obscure Japanese series if not anime fans? Is it
"ballsy" to shoot yourself in the foot? Well, I guess maybe it is. What an
asshole.
> Regardless, redoing the song was a positive experience, and made the
> game better for it, so in the long run, no harm done.
It seems to have damaged your image a bit.
Ken Arromdee
>The only ones "suffering" are the ones that are taking this far too
>seriously.
Except you're _playing_ the practical joke, and they're the _victim_ of your
practical joke. As an interested party, you cannot objectively decide
whether the joke is worthy of complaint, so you have no business telling
anyone that they're taking the joke too seriously.
--
Ken Arromdee |They said it was *daft* to build a space
arro...@inetnow.net |station in a swamp, but I showed them! It
karr...@nyx.nyx.net |sank into the swamp. So I built a second
http://www.inetnow.net/~arromdee|space station. That sank into the swamp too.
--------------------------------+My third space station sank into the swamp.
So I built a fourth one. That fell into a time warp and _then_ sank into the
swamp. But the fifth one... stayed up! --Monty Python/Babylon 5
Ken Arromdee
>> check dejanews (which I generally assume all newsgroup users are
>> capable of using, hence I don't recap everything I've posted on
>> every successive post), you'll see that I ASKED the newsgroup
>> for suggestions on name changes. No secrets, unfortunately
>> for your theory.
Actually, there's something interesting here. In June 1996, Vic posted
requesting name suggestions. In August 1997 a Working Designs representative
claimed that WD had fought for two years to get the rights to use the original
names. There aren't two years between June 1996 and August 1997.
It's also pretty undeniable that people got the _impression_ that Vic had
wanted to use the original names all along. What Vic actually said might
have been legally accurate, since he never said "we only ever fought to
use the original names and not for any other ones", but it seemed designed
to make people think that it was the original names all along. And when
people posted, obviously under the impression that Vic did want the original
names all along, Vic never bothered to correct them, even though it was a
subject that he otherwise discussed quite a bit.
Just because you are misleading people by omission doesn't make it any less
misleading.
Victor Ireland
>
> >> To me it seems that his detractors, me included, seem to remember a
> >former
> >> greatness and nobility of the WD standard that he personally no longer
> >> possesses.
> >
> >Please define this standard.
>
> era when Working Designs really came into its own...
>
> Sure, your company existed as a videogame distributor before the coming of
> the Sega CD...and it exists now...but the era of the Sega CD is where Working
> Designs really showed what they were capable of and where they picked up their
> legion of loyal fans.
> And they delivered
> Lunar Silver Star, Vay, Popful Mail, Lunar Eternal Blue... Three true
> RPG's and one action RPG, but every one a truly remarkable game. And all
> able to match since.
Alot of that has to do with timing of the licenses. We released Dragon Force,
Albert Odyssey, and Alundra within about 1 year, which is a far greater
translation feat than what you mention. If you draw parallels, DF and Alundra
were critically rated in the LUNAR range, while Albert Odyssey took the Vay
position.
> Those four games alone amassed your greatest fame as well as a legion of
> loyal fans. WD promised quality, gaming experiences like no other, and they
> delivered. They were seemingly unstoppable.
And we never did stop. We diversified more than in the past. Perhaps your
preference is for just action and true RPG's? We did 2 strategy games, one
of which was a Strat RPG hybrid (Dragon Force). Both were unparalleled in
terms of gaming experience and quality, critically and commercially successful.
> Something happened between then and the Saturn... WD lost its impetus.
> It's bold plans mired. The legions of fans proud boasts that WD would easily
> trounce Square's arrival on the PSX and their vaunted Final Fantasy would meet
> WD's FF7. Lunar was coming! And then Grandia to vault Sega and WD over the
> competition and not look back. Such was the faith in Working Designs.
Grandia, well, is Grandia. And the problem with that title was the fact that
its delays pushed it past four years in development and into the "Saturn is
dead zone." By the time the game was available, it was impossible to convert
and release it for the Saturn with any hope of losing less than $500,000.
> Because we remember, and we wish to God that you and WD remembered how you
> were as fondly as we do...maybe then the glory days would return, and your
> standard high enough to rally back the legions that still *want* to believe.
The reason I had asked for a definition is not because I had forgotten, but
because the "definition" here is not an absolute, it is a personal/emotional
thing. There are literally legions of fans out there that think we are getting
better and better, and I tend to agree.
David Smith
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Joe Ottoson wrote:
> IMO, gutter's a tad overharsh for any of WD's recent attempts. Dragonforce
> mentioned a phone company, Stuart Smalley, and Superfly, but I wouldn't
> call anything in that game garbage or signs of moral decay. (Except for
> Gongos and his banana)
I dunno. Laine was a bit too peculiar for my tastes :).
DFS.
Victor Ireland
> Working Designs love-in, eh?
>
> How about the Ruroni Kenshin RPG for the PSX? We'll think about it then. ;)
> (Hey! I don't have a Saturn! All these Sega threads are pure amusement for
> me.)
>
> -Nikkou.
>
We actually looked at this title seriously, but the interface for combat,
while interesting, didn't work very well. The in-game graphics were also
just above NES quality, too. Unfortunate, since it wqas a cool license...
Kuno Christoffel
>
>
> Enrique Conty wrote:
>
> > In article <360a1042...@news.vmicro.com>,
> > John Hokanson Jr. <yangn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >I have followed Working Designs since the Sega CD days, and
> > >now I will do so no more. What little respect I once harbored for the
> > >company and the man in the president's chair is now but a memory.
> >
> > You've seen the light...
>
> I'm -still- mystified at the venom that some of you guys throw at WD. I've
> enjoyed pretty much everything that they've released on the Saturn and
> Playstation both (with the possible exception of Elemental Gearbolt
> <shrug>), and the general consensus of my customers is that their games
> are high quality and funny to boot.
Well, there's your problem right there. One of "their games" that's so "high
quality" is, in actuality, a high quality game made by some hardworking
people in Japan who had nothing to do with Working Designs until Vic picked
up the rights to their work.
And yet, to hear Mr. Ireland tell it, Working Designs is -far- more important
than any of these companies who's games they distribute and that said games
*weren't* *worth* *playing* until he came along and "fixed" them. Good god,
can you imagine what people would say if ADV had announced that they had
decided to produce their own re-make of the last episode of EVA? And, to
make the analogy fit better, if they responded to all criticism by telling
fans that they didn't know what they were talking about?
Regardless of how 'fuh-knee' the re-written dialouge is, and regardless of how
golly-neat-o-keen the 'extras' are, what it comes down to is that Working
Designs exists for the sole purpose of boosting Victor Ireland's ego by
letting him put his name onto something that he's responsible for in the same
way that my fence was built by the dog that happened to pee on it yesterday.
I have way too much respect for RPG developers in general to approve of that,
but, certainly, if you can seperate "Working Designs" (a name on some RPGs)
from "Working Designs" (a reprehensible company), Vic's attitude shouldn't
stop you from enjoying anything he happened to touch.
--
Kuno Christoffel
(Weak vs. Late Nights, Weak vs. Girls with Glasses, Just Plain Weak.)
de...@wizard.net - http://www.wizard.net/~deva/
Victor Ireland
> Except you're _playing_ the practical joke, and they're the _victim_ of your
> practical joke. As an interested party, you cannot objectively decide
> whether the joke is worthy of complaint, so you have no business telling
> anyone that they're taking the joke too seriously.
>
When people are crying blood and ranting their colons clean, I think it's
a fair clue that they're taking it too seriously. Granted, I don't know
how it affected their personal emotional well-being, but for god's
sake, these are GAMES. There are many more important things to get
upset about in the world that actually matter in the big picture.
Victor Ireland
> And yet, to hear Mr. Ireland tell it, Working Designs is -far- more important
> than any of these companies who's games they distribute and that said games
> *weren't* *worth* *playing* until he came along and "fixed" them. Good god,
> can you imagine what people would say if ADV had announced that they had
> decided to produce their own re-make of the last episode of EVA? And, to
> make the analogy fit better, if they responded to all criticism by telling
> fans that they didn't know what they were talking about?
>
Huh?
I mean, we NEVER dilute the fact that we are converting great games that originated
in Japan. In fact, in our translation notes in EVERY recent game, we detail
what we CHANGED in the game. Plus, we keep the FULL Japanese credits (except
for sales staff and manual design, which aren't relevant to the US release).
Believe it or not, lots of companies REMOVE the Japanese credits. I think,
once again, ridiculous generalities are being focused into completely
WRONG conclusions.
guy...@usa.net
But you've wrung about as much personal involvement out of this one
particular game as is humanly possible. I think many people were
offending that you could pull a stunt like this on people after you'd
done a bait-and-swtich on them for almost 36 months.
Victor Ireland
> In article <MPG.1074c2577...@news.mindspring.com>,
> vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
> >
> > Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has jokes
> > about homosexuality say about the Japanese?
>
> You know, I'm 99.9% certain that at least one of your games, perhaps it was
> even Lunar:SSS, also had jokes about homosexuality.
>
The POINT was that the original Japanese games have the kind of
content the original poster was objecting to in OUR versions.
Victor Ireland
> Literal? Well good. When I buy FF7, I want FF7, not Vic's Own FF. Stiff
> and boring? Maybe if you read a script, but I've never found dialogue in any
> of these games to turn out that dull. Finally, there is a difference between
> natural-sounding and colloquial. Modern, colloquial English is not
> appropriate to the time period or genre of any of these games.
>
And exactly what time period are you referring to? The Industrial-Medieval Era?
By and large, RPG's are in a fantasy period with NO "era".
guy...@usa.net
>In article <MPG.1074c2577...@news.mindspring.com>,
> vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>>
>> Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has jokes
>> about homosexuality say about the Japanese?
>
>You know, I'm 99.9% certain that at least one of your games, perhaps it was
>even Lunar:SSS, also had jokes about homosexuality.
>
>-ZFP
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
the impression I'm getting here is that while Japan prefers to joke
about homosexuality, America simply refuses to talk about it unless in
some crazy pc speech or bashing it as a sin. Feel free to correct me
if I'm wrong.
guy...@usa.net
wrote:
>Avatar (ak...@pdq.net) wrote:
>>
>>
>> Enrique Conty wrote:
>>
>> > In article <360a1042...@news.vmicro.com>,
>> > John Hokanson Jr. <yangn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > >I have followed Working Designs since the Sega CD days, and
>> > >now I will do so no more. What little respect I once harbored for the
>> > >company and the man in the president's chair is now but a memory.
>> >
>> > You've seen the light...
>>
>> I'm -still- mystified at the venom that some of you guys throw at WD. I've
>> enjoyed pretty much everything that they've released on the Saturn and
>> Playstation both (with the possible exception of Elemental Gearbolt
>> <shrug>), and the general consensus of my customers is that their games
>> are high quality and funny to boot.
>
>Well, there's your problem right there. One of "their games" that's so "high
> quality" is, in actuality, a high quality game made by some hardworking
> people in Japan who had nothing to do with Working Designs until Vic picked
> up the rights to their work.
All they are is a translation company. Except they do games and not
anime. Although frankly they're closer to a Streamline or Viz than
USMC or ADV.
David Crowe
: In article <360b4b3a...@news.vmicro.com>, yangn...@hotmail.com says...
: > But it would've been just too much to ask that you just remix it one
: > more time and not decide to make us all suffer because some fans
: > didn't like it, right Vic?
: The only ones "suffering" are the ones that are taking this far too
: seriously.
You are clearly the center of a lot of angry controversy. Rather than
crossposting to rec.arts.anime.misc and rec.arts.anime.fandom, just keep
it on rec.arts.anime.games, where discussions of your product and company
are more directly on topic. Thank you.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"A ripoff is a ripoff even if you call it a 'homage.' If you can't think
up original concepts, get out of the industry and quit wasting our time,
the retailer's rack space and our precious natural resources."
-Toren Smith on manga "homages" in US comics.
guy...@usa.net
Okay, try this. The characters should talk in style of English
similiar to the style of Japanese they speak in the original. I
realize this isn't always easy(just look at Barret)but it beats the
hell out of everyone sounding like they came from the Valley.
Joe Ottoson
> In article <6ufd1k$6ob$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>,
> douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) wrote:
> >
> > You're kidding, right? For natural sounding English dialogue, NONE
> > of the above games even come CLOSE to a WD translation (and I'm *not*, nor
> > have I been referring to the "potty" jokes) - SaGa Frontier is absolutely
> > abysmal.
>
> Natural sounding English dialogue? Perhaps you're forgetting, but none of
> these games take place in America, 1998, nor are the characters all American
> teens.
Heck, a lot of them didn't even take place on earth! Those humanoid forms
are so unrealistic that I can't even play them without retching at the
horribly jarring inaccuracies that keep reminding me that it's a story and
not a window into an alternative lifestyle.
sanjian
Victor Ireland wrote in message ...
OK, hows about Sakura Wars. (has this turned into a badger Vic session
yet?)
the sanjian
Penninsula Anime Club (P.A.C.)
"Forget, for this moment, the smog, and the cars,
and the restaurants, and the skating, and remember only this.
A kiss may not be the truth, but it is what we wish were true."
Harris K. Tellemacker, LA Story
<san...@widowmaker.com>
Go with God, Senator Barry Goldwater 1909-1998
John Hokanson Jr.
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) echoed these
famous last words:
>quin...@aol.com (Quinn Seed) writes:
>
>
>>Vic wrote...
>
>>"Considering that line of thinking, what does the fact that LUNAR:SSS has jokes
>>about homosexuality say about the Japanese?"
>
>>heh heh..probably the same thing that Lunar EB 'said' when Ruby made those
>>comments about Leo =D
>
>>For Gods SAKE....what, is someone going to hire an inpependent counsel against
>>Victor Ireland? He's been deflecting these kinds of posts for months and
>>months...we aren't going to change his mind, so what's the use? In fact,
>>constantly calling him out and beckoning him in here is only going to increase
>>the 'delay of game' (I'm exagerating) I'm not yellin' at no one...guess now
>>even *I'M* getting tired of this industry insider melodrama. Now I understand
>>why there aren't any other company presidents in the Usenet. And just to clear
>>any fog, I am NOT defending Vic. At all.
>
> Welcome to the elite, Quinn. You're one of US, now. ;)
>
> Technically, I'm not defending Vic, either; I'm as tired as anyone
>else of his inability to formulate an accurate release date. However, when
>you've been on USENET for as long as I have, you really get tired of seeing
>people take their FEELINGS so damn seriously around here.
>
Fine. Then shut up Doug. If you don't care. Don't post. It seems like
the only thing your trying to do is muzzle my opinion, and prevent the
release of the truth.
And, Doug........you *ARE* a Vic/WD defender. Everything you've posted
is in defense of Vic. Either it's because you actually believe the man
to have some real merit and his good points outweigh the bad. Or it's
a
result of your friendship with Zach Meston. I don't know what, but I
don't get your whole angle on this thing.
John Hokanson Jr.
jaot...@hotmail.com (Joe Ottoson) echoed these famous last words:
Which, was the problem with Dragon Force. The humor wasn't as childish
as in other WD games, but it was quite out of place nonetheless.
And did we really need all of it?
I play RPGs to temporarly escape reality. Not to imerse myself in the
infantile apsects of my own.
John Hokanson Jr.
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) echoed these famous last
words:
>In article <90674265...@iris.nyx.net>, karr...@nyx.nyx.net says...
>> Except you're _playing_ the practical joke, and they're the _victim_ of your
>> practical joke. As an interested party, you cannot objectively decide
>> whether the joke is worthy of complaint, so you have no business telling
>> anyone that they're taking the joke too seriously.
>>
>
>When people are crying blood and ranting their colons clean, I think it's
>a fair clue that they're taking it too seriously. Granted, I don't know
>how it affected their personal emotional well-being, but for god's
>sake, these are GAMES. There are many more important things to get
>upset about in the world that actually matter in the big picture.
>
Then why did *YOU* get annoyed to the point that you felt that you had
to play the joke? What possibly made you think it was necessary since,
as you say, these are only *games*. Was it ego Vic?
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>
> And exactly what time period are you referring to? The Industrial-Medieval
Era?
Pretty much, yes.
> By and large, RPG's are in a fantasy period with NO "era".
No, by and large the fantasy period in which RPG's take place is assumed to be
similar to earth's middle ages. I have never read any book labled "fantasy"
which contained any modern slang or colloquialisms. Ambitious authors create
their own, but that's another matter.
ZoqF...@my-dejanews.com
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>
> The POINT was that the original Japanese games have the kind of
> content the original poster was objecting to in OUR versions.
I seriously doubt that. One lone joke about homosexuality is not the sort of
content that I've heard complaints about in WD games.
Working Designs is a ninny poop poop dum dum company?
That's right, we're all just a bunch of idiots. Our opinons don't matter at
all. There's no reason to listen to our complaints, is there? Better to
just dismiss us as raving loonys and just keep forging on ahead, because hey,
you're infallable, right?
You're every bit as bad as these people say you are.
Henry LaPierre
<zeram...@concentric.net> writes:
>Alundra free of potty humor? It wasn't originally. I heard that the
>reason that Alundra was delayed was b/c of some idiotic & moronic
>sexual innuendo text in the game.
>
>Tell me I'm wrong. Go ahead & try and deny it.
Just to jump in quick here. As one of the people who were fortunate to
have played an early version of Alundra, I can tell you that there were
only 1 or 2 lines that were changed for the release version due to
content being questionable. Hardly enough to warrant a delay of the
game.
Henry LaPierre
fre...@ix.netcom.com
John Hokanson Jr.
>In article <MPG.1075961f...@news.newsguy.com>, de...@wizard.net says...
Oh yeah you're right...they are.....
I don't know about you, but I have not played an translated video
game that has removed the Japanese credits from the ending.
Komani, Capcom, Sony...
Even Acclaim which you think is a second rate company despite the fact
that they're doing the same thing as your SPAZ label. Darius Gaiden
for instance keeps all the Japanese credits, and simply tacks the
american team on at the end.
Somebody tell me that "lots of companies" do otherwise?