What annoys me about Lunar moving to the PSX
Doug Kern
Well I am just going to say it. From the press release, it says that
PSX Lunar was being worked on since the summer. I should have know all
along this was being done, the line about releasing the MPEG version should
have clinched it. Basically Vic was just leading us along when all the
while he knew he was going to drop the Saturn version. Personally I would
not have minded if we were told early about this, at least I coul have
started to save up and buy a PSX, was going to for a while actually, just
can't afford another system right now :\
I am still very skeptic about Rayearth being released, since we will
probally fance even more delays, and then this game will be dropped for
being even more of a loss then it is now. I may sound bitter, and I admit
it I am. Even when I get a PSX, I am debating getting Lunar since this
entire situation has left a bad taste in my mouth.
So anybody know where I can get any good walk throughs for the Japanese
version of Lunar?
--
Doug Kern
AKA Monocle
dke...@idt.net
Homepage: http://idt.net/~dkern2
Visit The Shrine to Blackarachnia!: http://idt.net/~dkern2/Blackarachnia
Victor Ireland
In article <34C38F...@roch875.mc.xerox.com>,
md...@roch875.mc.xerox.com says...
> Victor Ireland wrote:
> >
> --snip--
> > Trying to answer honest questions honestly, and refuting anything too
> > outrageous outright. Everything in between I'm taking in and chalking it
> > up to the typical grief over a system's death.
>
> --snip--
>
> You're being too kind. I grieved when my dog died, but someone who
> 'grieves' over the 'death' of a gaming console is in serious need of a
> life. IMHO.
>
True, but there are a significant number of people who have their own
self worth tied up with their chosen hardware "team" in the videogame
arena. Fortunately, most are pretty young, and grow out of it
eventually. No comment on the rest. :)
Actually, we were just talking today in the office about re-opening some
of our Turbografx hate mail (we save everything!) and putting it side-by-
side with some of the current "hate mail" from Saturn users (it's
running 90-10 in favor of our decision, BTW, slightly more supportive
than during the TG's death, when it was about 60-40 in favor of). The
similiarites are striking, except that then, SEGA was the "evil" company
for "stealing us" from TTi and the Turbografx. <sigh>
Don't Believe the Hype -
Vic
Barberman
In article <dkern2-ya02408000...@news.idt.net>,
dke...@idt.net says...
>Even when I get a PSX, I am debating getting Lunar since this
>entire situation has left a bad taste in my mouth.
I hear ya, I cant (and havent) touch any of WD games just for the fact
that it totally sickens me to see WD's name on an otherwise great game.
I've said it again and again, WD sucks, they always have and always
will.
--
BARBERMAN
barb...@wichita.fn.net
"I am gamer, hear me curse!"
Mike S Reynolds
In article <dkern2-ya02408000...@news.idt.net>,
Doug Kern <dke...@idt.net> wrote:
> Well I am just going to say it. From the press release, it says that
>PSX Lunar was being worked on since the summer. I should have know all
>along this was being done, the line about releasing the MPEG version should
>have clinched it. Basically Vic was just leading us along when all the
>while he knew he was going to drop the Saturn version. Personally I would
>not have minded if we were told early about this, at least I coul have
>started to save up and buy a PSX, was going to for a while actually, just
>can't afford another system right now :\
Well I've owned a PS since its launch and although I too am not very happy
with WD, I'm getting Lunar SSS when it is released. To not buy it after
waiting so long for it would be like cutting off my nose to spite my face.
I'll also get Rayearth for basically the same reason. Other than that I
haven't bought a WD game since Dragon Force. That's a combination of not
really caring for WD's pick of games and not really wanting to go out of
my way to support a company whose recent actions have left a bad taste in
my mouth. Lunar SSS for Saturn had to be canned, I don't question that. But
the reason it had to be canned has as much to do with WD's snail pace as it
does with SOA's ineptness. WD seems to think they can get Lunar for PS out
this year. Had they applied the same effort to the Saturn version none of
this would have even happened. What bothers me most is that Vic has known
Lunar would be canned for some time, but didn't have the guts to say it.
The arrogance is getting annoying too. Vic and the WD lackeys will bash the
FF7 port every chance they get, but to be honest the thought of playing FF7
with a WD translation doesn't exactly excite me. What's more, WD has not
released a good rpg since Lunar 2, so IMO they really shouldn't talk.
> I am still very skeptic about Rayearth being released, since we will
>probally fance even more delays, and then this game will be dropped for
>being even more of a loss then it is now. I may sound bitter, and I admit
>it I am. Even when I get a PSX, I am debating getting Lunar since this
>entire situation has left a bad taste in my mouth.
I believe we'll still get Rayearth. Vic promised it, and despite what I've
written above I think Vic is still a good guy and WD is still a good
company. But I just don't look at them the same way anymore. It used to be
I would buy any game with a WD label, even if it was mediocre(which happens
more often than the WD fanboys will admit). Not anymore.
Mike Reynolds
Victor Ireland
In article <69pgnl$ila$1...@usenet87.supernews.com>, barb...@wichita.fn.net
says...
> >entire situation has left a bad taste in my mouth.
>
> that it totally sickens me to see WD's name on an otherwise great game.
> I've said it again and again, WD sucks, they always have and always
> will.
>
I'm curious as to how you arrived at this opinion? Heresay? If you've
never touched one of our games, how can you know what's inside to form
such a strong opinion?
Victor Ireland
In article <19980118033...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, dt...@aol.com
says...
> I agree. People flamed be for being system biased and such when I didn't like
> the fact that Lunar was being ported to PS but it still annoys me and I
> completely agree with what you said above. I notice that the very same people
> who flamed Vic for delaying Lunar and Rayearth awhile back are the same people
> who are kissing his ass and kneeling at his feet now that he's been bailed out
> of having to can Lunar in the U.S. by GameArts.
What you obviously DON'T understand is that WE were pushing to get the PS
version MADE. There was quite a bit of resistance to the idea initially.
No one "bailed" anyone out.
I emailed Vic asking him how
> come, if WD really did have such a close relationship with ESP and GameArts,
> that he didn't utilize this and get the Saturn version out faster (haven't
> received a reply yet).
Perhaps yours is amongst the 300+ emails I haven't gotten to yet this
week? There is a big, wide world out there, and many of the RPG players
in it have questions for "your" bud Vic. Quite a few of them are less
cynical, too.
Victor Ireland
> > True, but there are a significant number of people who have their own
> > self worth tied up with their chosen hardware "team" in the videogame
> > arena. Fortunately, most are pretty young, and grow out of it
> > eventually. No comment on the rest. :)
> >
> > Actually, we were just talking today in the office about re-opening some
> > of our Turbografx hate mail (we save everything!) and putting it side-by-
> > side with some of the current "hate mail" from Saturn users (it's
> > running 90-10 in favor of our decision, BTW, slightly more supportive
> > than during the TG's death, when it was about 60-40 in favor of). The
> > similiarites are striking, except that then, SEGA was the "evil" company
> > for "stealing us" from TTi and the Turbografx. <sigh>
> >
> > Vic
> >
> >
>
> situation. I own a Saturn and a PSX, but I also owned a TG-16. Being 14
> when the TG-16 kicked the bucket, I remember how much I hated the devils
> at Sega for killing the TG-16 with their Genesis system. I only owned a
> few of your games (Cosmic Fantasy 2 and Vasteel), but I still considered
> WD a traitor for switching camps. I went on to buy an SNES as I refused to
> "lower myself" into buying a Genesis. I loved my SNES, but I would often
> go to my friends' houses to play their Genesis systems, which I couldn't
> buy because it felt morally wrong. Sound really strange? It was. In
> hindsight, not buying a Genesis was one of my biggest regrets. I came to
> see that videogame systems are not political parties; they are merely
> mediums of artistic expression for videogame designers. I read this
> newsgroup regularly and I feel pangs of deja vu when I see all the
> attacks against you leaving to the antichrist-like PSX camp.
Glad you got the "big" picture! Too bad you missed out on some Genesis
classics along the way... :)
DBTH - Vic
DTLIU
>>entire situation has left a bad taste in my mouth.
>
>written above I think Vic is still a good guy and WD is still a good
>company. But I just don't look at them the same way anymore. It used to be
>I would buy any game with a WD label, even if it was mediocre(which happens
>more often than the WD fanboys will admit). Not anymore.
>
>Mike Reynolds
>
>
>
>
>
I agree. People flamed be for being system biased and such when I didn't like
the fact that Lunar was being ported to PS but it still annoys me and I
completely agree with what you said above. I notice that the very same people
who flamed Vic for delaying Lunar and Rayearth awhile back are the same people
who are kissing his ass and kneeling at his feet now that he's been bailed out
of having to can Lunar in the U.S. by GameArts. I emailed Vic asking him how
come, if WD really did have such a close relationship with ESP and GameArts,
that he didn't utilize this and get the Saturn version out faster (haven't
received a reply yet). I doubt I'm gonna get a PS, I'm going down with my
Saturn (well, there's still my N64 to fall back on). As for Rayearth, I may
still get it, but it IS a 2+ year old game and I've lost a bit of interest in
it, but it is coming, as Vic terms it as a "parting present". Last I heard it
was coming in April now. It'll either be that or Quest 64, or I may still be
playing Panzer Dragoon Saga......
------------
"If I ever hear about this shit happening again, I'll whip your ass raw and
make you my bitch." --Reader to Douglass Perry on Saturnworld
Peter and Tracy Cook
Victor Ireland wrote:
>
> In article <69pgnl$ila$1...@usenet87.supernews.com>, barb...@wichita.fn.net
> says...
> > In article <dkern2-ya02408000...@news.idt.net>,
> > dke...@idt.net says...
> > >entire situation has left a bad taste in my mouth.
> >
> > that it totally sickens me to see WD's name on an otherwise great game.
> > I've said it again and again, WD sucks, they always have and always
> > will.
> >
>
> I'm curious as to how you arrived at this opinion? Heresay? If you've
> never touched one of our games, how can you know what's inside to form
> such a strong opinion?
>
> Vic
The only good thing on Saturn your company has produced
was Albert Odyessey. Shining Wisdom was a waste of my money.
That game was below Genesis standards!
All of the best RPGs for Saturn were not from Working Delays:
Mystaria
Shining the Holy Ark
the soon to come Panzer Dragoon RPG
Dark Savior
the soon to come Shining Force III
Do something constructive, port Grandia or another
excellent RPG or sign on for Katana or whatever it's
called this month.
If you've entirely abandoned the Saturn why are you still
posting here?
--
+
Peter R. Cook. cook...@ma.ultranet.com
http://www.ultranet.com/~cookster
"Well, I've been to Massachusetts." Ronald Reagan responding
to the question "Have you ever been to a communist country".
-
Castellan
Peter and Tracy Cook <"cookster@ma"@ma.ultranet.com> writes:
<ranting against Vic deleted>
> If you've entirely abandoned the Saturn why are you still
> posting here?
He's still releasing Magic Knight Rayearth, in case you've
forgotten.
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
-- "No-one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence --
-- of the American public." - H. L. Mencken --
Darien Allen
And the holy hosts all joined in as Peter and Tracy Cook
<"cookster@ma"@ma.ultranet.com> gifted us with these words:
>
> The only good thing on Saturn your company has produced
> was Albert Odyessey. Shining Wisdom was a waste of my money.
> That game was below Genesis standards!
>
> All of the best RPGs for Saturn were not from Working Delays:
>
> Mystaria
> Shining the Holy Ark
> the soon to come Panzer Dragoon RPG
> Dark Savior
> the soon to come Shining Force III
>
> Do something constructive, port Grandia or another
> excellent RPG or sign on for Katana or whatever it's
> called this month.
>
> If you've entirely abandoned the Saturn why are you still
> posting here?
>
Sour grapes plain and simple.
------
"Oh yeah...that's just my style" - Young Macho Man
DRA
Remove that NoSPAM to reply
ICQ #2927081 - Stop on by....
Castellan
Nam <n...@netvigator.com> writes:
>I have tried most of you games and I am sure your translation are very
>poor. You just add lots of toilet humor to destroy the original feeling
>of the games. I can share my opinion as I tried the Jap versions.
>Watching your game response card I can sure you are a self-esteem. Your
>change in Lunar EB saving system is a another example. You really think
>what you did were better than Game Art?
>Your games got good sell in US just because the Japan version is good,
>not your translation. FF VII, not translated by your company, also sell
>good in US.
Er, how can you tell if a translation is "poor" when your English
skills are marginal? WD's translations have very good pacing, grammar,
and a natural flow to the dialogue that most other, non-WD translations
lack.
Steve Wargo
My philosophy has been, if you can read Japanese, more power to you;
import
the game and ignore the US version. If you can't read Japanese, how do
you know it's a bad translation?
From things you HEAR? I consider a Japanese RPG unplayable because I do
not know Japanese.
Therefore, WD brings games I otherwise would not have played...I don't
care how true
to the original they are, as I would have gotten NOTHING if it weren't
for the "poor"
translation. If we waited for the perfect everything, we'd have nothing.
And to
play the Japanese game even if you can't read it just out of some hatred
towards
the company involved is only hurting yourself and robbing you of an
experience that otherwise
may have been great. And lighten up, games are made to have fun with.
Steve Wargo,
CyberGames News Center
http://www.cgnc.com
Nam wrote:
>
> Victor Ireland wrote:
>
> > I'm curious as to how you arrived at this opinion? Heresay? If you've
> > never touched one of our games, how can you know what's inside to form
> > such a strong opinion?
> >
> > Don't Believe the Hype -
> > Vic
>
> I have tried most of you games and I am sure your translation are very
> poor. You just add lots of toilet humor to destroy the original feeling
> of the games. I can share my opinion as I tried the Jap versions.
> Watching your game response card I can sure you are a self-esteem. Your
> change in Lunar EB saving system is a another example. You really think
> what you did were better than Game Art?
> Your games got good sell in US just because the Japan version is good,
> not your translation. FF VII, not translated by your company, also sell
> good in US.
>
> You just try to fool US Saturn users.
>
> --
> Nam
Poom Nukulkij
In article <69t83r$sd9$2...@decius.ultra.net>
Peter and Tracy Cook <"cookster@ma"@ma.ultranet.com> writes:
> The only good thing on Saturn your company has produced
> was Albert Odyessey. Shining Wisdom was a waste of my money.
> That game was below Genesis standards!
And Iron Storm was pretty lame too. Uh huh, whatever.
> All of the best RPGs for Saturn were not from Working Delays:
> Mystaria
terribly appropriate, but I guess to each his own.
> If you've entirely abandoned the Saturn why are you still
> posting here?
Poom!
Victor Ireland
In article <69qjth$5m0$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>, m...@cs.buffalo.edu
says...
> Had they applied the same effort to the Saturn version none of
> this would have even happened. What bothers me most is that Vic has known
> Lunar would be canned for some time, but didn't have the guts to say it.
>
The decision was made in November 1997. Prior to that, a dual release was
planned. If we had announced LUNAR was canned for Saturn without
announcing the PS replacement (which we were contractually bound not to
until January 1998), would you have jumped in with the other flamers and
braised us? Sure you would have!
This was the best way to handle the situation, given the circumstances.
DBTH - Vic
Victor Ireland
In article <69t83r$sd9$2...@decius.ultra.net>, Peter and Tracy Cook
<"cookster@ma"@ma.ultranet.com> says...
> The only good thing on Saturn your company has produced
> was Albert Odyessey. Shining Wisdom was a waste of my money.
> That game was below Genesis standards!
>
>
> Mystaria
> the soon to come Panzer Dragoon RPG
> Dark Savior
> the soon to come Shining Force III
>
Funny that Dragon Force was noted as Saturn Game of the Year by a number
of publications, not the least of which were EGM and SEGA themselves!
Hate all you want, but at least get your facts straight.
> Do something constructive, port Grandia or another
> excellent RPG or sign on for Katana or whatever it's
> called this month.
>
i.e. "Do what I want and I'll like you again"
5th grade playground mentality does not work in the big, bad world of
business. You're wish is not realistic, given SEGA's sorry state in
America, and the poor track record of their current management.
> If you've entirely abandoned the Saturn why are you still
> posting here?
>
Trying to answer honest questions honestly, and refuting anything too
outrageous outright. Everything in between I'm taking in and chalking it
up to the typical grief over a system's death. We HAVE been through this
before with Turbografx and SEGA CD, and the symptoms are exactly the
same, but on a larger scale due to the larger installed base and wide
proliferation of usenet.
DBTH - Vic
Victor Ireland
In article <34C244...@netvigator.com>, n...@netvigator.com says...
> I have tried most of you games and I am sure your translation are very
> poor. You just add lots of toilet humor to destroy the original feeling
> of the games.
Considering that LUNAR had its share of "toilet humor" in the original
Japanese version, I wonder if you really played it or if it went over
your head.
>I can share my opinion as I tried the Jap versions.
Tried the japanese verisons, or FINISHED them? There is a difference.
> Watching your game response card I can sure you are a self-esteem. Your
> change in Lunar EB saving system is a another example. You really think
> what you did were better than Game Art?
Game Arts didn't protest. I hindsight we could have made it better, but
we'll save that for the remix.
> Your games got good sell in US just because the Japan version is good,
> not your translation. FF VII, not translated by your company, also sell
> good in US.
>
Then how do you explain the fact that Albert Odyssey rated an average of
5-6 (of 10) in Japan, while it rated 7-9 here? The only thing that
changed significantly was the writing. Ditto Alundra. Scores in Japan
of 6-7 there, while they were 8-9 here. The only major change was the
writing (and a new opening animation for Alundra).
> You just try to fool US Saturn users.
>
That right we just try to fool stupid saturn user with our bad writing.
DBTH - Vic
Devilot
Victor Ireland wrote:
>
>
> > Watching your game response card I can sure you are a self-esteem. Your
> > change in Lunar EB saving system is a another example. You really think
> > what you did were better than Game Art?
>
> Game Arts didn't protest. I hindsight we could have made it better, but
> we'll save that for the remix.
Yessssss! Does this mean the Remix is coming out for the PSX, and you're
going to translate it? If so, this is too cool. Lunar: Eternal Blue is
one of my favorite games of all time (sorry, Lunar: SS was cool, but too
short), and I would love to see the Remix hit the States!
BTW, I thought the change in the Lunar EB save system was really
cool...I've mentioned that before, so you know I'm not just sucking up.
>
> > Your games got good sell in US just because the Japan version is good,
> > not your translation. FF VII, not translated by your company, also sell
> > good in US.
> >
>
> Then how do you explain the fact that Albert Odyssey rated an average of
> 5-6 (of 10) in Japan, while it rated 7-9 here? The only thing that
> changed significantly was the writing. Ditto Alundra. Scores in Japan
> of 6-7 there, while they were 8-9 here. The only major change was the
> writing (and a new opening animation for Alundra).
I have to agree on a couple of your points here. If Albert Odyssey's
translation hadn't been as funny as it was, I probably wouldn't have
bothered finishing it. What kept me playing weren't the somewhat dull
battles (and dungeons, unless you count that b*tch Fargasta...), but the
story and the humor (the 'your momma' scene was hilarious! Was that you
or Zach Meston?).
>
> > You just try to fool US Saturn users.
> >
>
> That right we just try to fool stupid saturn user with our bad writing.
Actually, though I think you went a bit overboard with Lunar: EB (Rush
Limbaugh and Clinton jokes?O_O), more often than not, the game benefits
from the added humor (Like my favorite scene in AO...you've just beaten
that descendant of Albert guy in the tower, and his girlfriend comes in,
revealing she's pregnant...and you can choose to ask "Whoa! You two got
horizontal!?!" or something to that effect...I think I busted my spleen
from laughing).
>
> DBTH - Vic
--
There is no gene for the human spirit.
tvs...@hotmail.com
> The only good thing on Saturn your company has produced
> was Albert Odyessey.
Taste is relative. I throroughly enjoyed Albert Odyssey AND Dragon
Force; both are quality titles whether they appealed to your particular
tastes or not. I have yet to play Iron Storm or Sega Ages, so I can't
comment on them. But I have to agree Shining Wisdom wasn't great...
> All of the best RPGs for Saturn were not from Working Delays:
>
> Mystaria
> Shining the Holy Ark
> the soon to come Panzer Dragoon RPG
How do you know if this is one of the best RPGs when it is "soon to come"?
> Dark Savior
> the soon to come Shining Force III
See above.
> Do something constructive, port Grandia or another
> excellent RPG
If you've been following Mr. Ireland's posts you would know that future
Saturn products will be literally unprofitable. He will lose money on
Rayearth but he has decided to bring it out anyway as a parting gift (of
sorts).
> or sign on for Katana or whatever it's
> called this month.
Katana won't be out until late 1998 (in Japan), which means the US
release will follow in 1999. Working Designs does not create games, they
translate them--it's hard to translate product that does not exist.
Fortunately, there ARE PlayStation RPGs to be translated in the meantime.
Whether you see this as 'constructive' or not is of course up to you...
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
tvs...@hotmail.com
> Game Arts didn't protest. I hindsight we could have made it better, but
> we'll save that for the remix.
>
So, Vic, will the Lunar: EB remix be ported to PSX also?
> > You just try to fool US Saturn users.
>
> That right we just try to fool stupid saturn user with our bad writing.
*lol*! I, for one, appreciate a company that takes the time to give us a
translation that is free of spelling and grammatical errors. I cringe
everytime I see these errors in RPGs translated by other companies.
Delays or not, 'toilet humor' or not, I am totally satisfied with WD's
translations and it would be safe to assume that we'll see the same level
of quality for ALL of their upcoming releases.
Lan
Nam wrote:
>
> Victor Ireland wrote:
>
> > I'm curious as to how you arrived at this opinion? Heresay? If you've
> > never touched one of our games, how can you know what's inside to form
> > such a strong opinion?
> >
> > Don't Believe the Hype -
> > Vic
>
> poor. You just add lots of toilet humor to destroy the original feeling
> Watching your game response card I can sure you are a self-esteem. Your
> change in Lunar EB saving system is a another example. You really think
> what you did were better than Game Art?
> not your translation. FF VII, not translated by your company, also sell
> good in US.
>
The only thing I can say possibly negative about WD is their delays.I
think their translations are excellent and the manuals are top-notch.I
also now support their desision to move on to the PSX.I was just acting
like a biased idiot yesterday.
Lan
tvs...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Game Arts didn't protest. I hindsight we could have made it better, but
> > we'll save that for the remix.
> >
>
> So, Vic, will the Lunar: EB remix be ported to PSX also?
I bet that is the game the "suprise" game they are talking about which
comes out later this year.
Devilot
If it is, I will be very grateful to Working Designs...
Victor Ireland
In article <vidsourcE...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com says...
> This I have to disagree with Vic. How can you fairly compare review
> ratings of a game from Japan and the US? Japanese reviewers have
> obviously played more RPGs, and have different tastes and culture than US
> game reviewers. I don't think a difference of scores could be attributed
> to as a reason of writing. It could simply be a matter of taste and
> culture or the game reviewer.
>
But in EVERY case? I can't think of a single game we've done where out
US scores were less than the Japanese scores, and MANY cases where they
were significantly higher. There are jaded RPG players in both countries
reviewing, so that can't be the only reason.
Nam
Victor Ireland wrote:
> I'm curious as to how you arrived at this opinion? Heresay? If you've
> never touched one of our games, how can you know what's inside to form
> such a strong opinion?
>
> Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic
I have tried most of you games and I am sure your translation are very
poor. You just add lots of toilet humor to destroy the original feeling
of the games. I can share my opinion as I tried the Jap versions.
Watching your game response card I can sure you are a self-esteem. Your
change in Lunar EB saving system is a another example. You really think
what you did were better than Game Art?
Your games got good sell in US just because the Japan version is good,
not your translation. FF VII, not translated by your company, also sell
good in US.
You just try to fool US Saturn users.
--
Nam
John E Larkspur
Victor Ireland (vire...@workingdesigns.com) wrote:
: In article <69t83r$sd9$2...@decius.ultra.net>, Peter and Tracy Cook
: > The only good thing on Saturn your company has produced
: > was Albert Odyessey. Shining Wisdom was a waste of my money.
: >
: > All of the best RPGs for Saturn were not from Working Delays:
: >
: > Mystaria
: > Shining the Holy Ark
: > the soon to come Panzer Dragoon RPG
: > the soon to come Shining Force III
: Funny that Dragon Force was noted as Saturn Game of the Year by a number
: of publications, not the least of which were EGM and SEGA themselves!
: Hate all you want, but at least get your facts straight.
I believe he said RPGs. Dragon Force is a fun, quality gaming
experience, but not an RPG. Mystaria is admittedly pushing it, but in
the end it has much greater RPG elements than DF. The best games WD
released on the Saturn were the war simulations (Iron Storm being by far
the best overall).
: Trying to answer honest questions honestly, and refuting anything too
: outrageous outright. Everything in between I'm taking in and chalking it
: up to the typical grief over a system's death. We HAVE been through this
: before with Turbografx and SEGA CD, and the symptoms are exactly the
: same, but on a larger scale due to the larger installed base and wide
: proliferation of usenet.
Do note that the grief is being funneled to the promise breakers.
That's the price you pay for taking advantage of the hype from an early
release announcement, then not following up. There's an easy solution to
avoiding such grief in the future, but since gamers are a market held
hostage (even more so now that one licenser is emerging supreme), I
suspect it doesn't bother anyone in the industry in the least.
Lark
Marty Chinn
Victor Ireland (vire...@workingdesigns.com) wrote:
: Then how do you explain the fact that Albert Odyssey rated an average of
: 5-6 (of 10) in Japan, while it rated 7-9 here? The only thing that
: changed significantly was the writing. Ditto Alundra. Scores in Japan
: of 6-7 there, while they were 8-9 here. The only major change was the
: writing (and a new opening animation for Alundra).
This I have to disagree with Vic. How can you fairly compare review
ratings of a game from Japan and the US? Japanese reviewers have
obviously played more RPGs, and have different tastes and culture than US
game reviewers. I don't think a difference of scores could be attributed
to as a reason of writing. It could simply be a matter of taste and
culture or the game reviewer.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty Chinn ** Tokyo Game Show - Sept. 5 - 7, 1997 **
Video Source PlayStation, Nintendo 64, Saturn, Imports
973 Foxglove Dr. M-F: 9:30-6:00, Sa: 10:00-3:00 PST, Sun: Closed
Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Ordering, and Preordering info at:
<408> 720-8575 Voice E-Mail: vids...@netcom.com
<408> 720-8576 FAX WWW : http://www.video-source.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castellan
vids...@netcom.com (Marty Chinn) writes:
>Victor Ireland (vire...@workingdesigns.com) wrote:
>: Then how do you explain the fact that Albert Odyssey rated an average of
>: 5-6 (of 10) in Japan, while it rated 7-9 here? The only thing that
>: changed significantly was the writing. Ditto Alundra. Scores in Japan
>: of 6-7 there, while they were 8-9 here. The only major change was the
>: writing (and a new opening animation for Alundra).
>This I have to disagree with Vic. How can you fairly compare review
>ratings of a game from Japan and the US? Japanese reviewers have
>obviously played more RPGs, and have different tastes and culture than US
>game reviewers. I don't think a difference of scores could be attributed
>to as a reason of writing. It could simply be a matter of taste and
>culture or the game reviewer.
I hafta agree with Marty on this. US gamers, even reviewers, are not
exposed to the quantity and quality of RPGs as Japanese gamers are on a
regular basis. Many US gamers and reviewers will "like" an RPG, simply
because it is an RPG, a type of title that is not released in enough
quantity to satisfy their desires Stateside. Hence, anticipation for such
titles builds, and the reviewer tends to be a bit more forgiving of the
flaws when he actually receives it, both out of some innate desire to support
the RPG market and because he actually managed to get a title of a genre
he loves. Of course, there are some cases where the game is so miserable
that even it being an RPG will not win it rave reviews (Beyond the Beyond);
still, you see the occasional apologist cropping out of the woodwork, despite
it being terrible, simply because it has some fan was RPG-starved enough
to enjoy it.
Japan, OTOH, gets enough RPGs that the gamers and reviewers over
there can afford to be choosy and nitpicky. I think if Albert Odyssey had
been released in the same climate here as exists in Japan, the scores would
be about the same. Sorry, Vic, while the dialogue was great, and the load
times WERE significantly improved, the game itself was still an exercise in
tedium and disaffectation for me. Its flaws went a little too deep for
anything but a drastic rewrite of the combat engine and play design to
fix. Perhaps a single point leap in scores might be appropriate, because
the WD version *is* better than the original, and I don't want to downplay
your efforts, but sometimes, all the surface changes can't repair a broken
engine.
Mary Jo DiBella
Victor Ireland wrote:
>
--snip--
> Trying to answer honest questions honestly, and refuting anything too
> outrageous outright. Everything in between I'm taking in and chalking it
> up to the typical grief over a system's death.
--snip--
You're being too kind. I grieved when my dog died, but someone who
'grieves' over the 'death' of a gaming console is in serious need of a
life. IMHO.
People, Saturn is dead. You can't expect a publisher to back the system
at the same time as you're posting messages like 'Hey, I just bought 20
Saturn games from WalMart at 5 bucks each! It's gone, it's obsolete,
it's fallen out of favor. If you want to blame someone, blame Bernie
Stolar, but personally I got enough good Saturn games to justify the
console purchase. I'll put it on the shelf next to my SNES, in case I
want to replay any of those games, and then I'll move on.
People who sit here sending hate mail to a publisher who says that the
console is no longer a viable development platform need to really get a
grip.
MJ
Ronald Spillman
Mary Jo DiBella (md...@roch875.mc.xerox.com) wrote:
: People, Saturn is dead. You can't expect a publisher to back the system
: at the same time as you're posting messages like 'Hey, I just bought 20
: Saturn games from WalMart at 5 bucks each! It's gone, it's obsolete,
: it's fallen out of favor. If you want to blame someone, blame Bernie
: Stolar, but personally I got enough good Saturn games to justify the
: console purchase. I'll put it on the shelf next to my SNES, in case I
: want to replay any of those games, and then I'll move on.
Not me. I got virtually every system I own "daisy-chained" to the TV
(Saturn, PSX, SNES, NES, Genny/Sega CD, TG-16)...Then, when I'm in the
mood to play Lunar SSS, or Jet Moto, or Mario collection, or Lunar
EB, or Alien Crush, I know I don't have to fiddle with anything; just
pop'em in...Never get rid of yer old systems, folks; you'll just end
up missing a favorite game when it's gone (Now if only Nintendo would
make a Zelda collection, like they did with Mario, I'd be happy...:)
--
Ron Spillman
Too old to avoid paying taxes, too young to die.......
[HEADLINE] Midshipman exposes backside in front of Studio Alta: now
shipmates call him Sailor Moon; Film at 11:)
Dream Hunter
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>In article <vidsourcE...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com says...
>> ratings of a game from Japan and the US? Japanese reviewers have
>> obviously played more RPGs, and have different tastes and culture than US
>> game reviewers. I don't think a difference of scores could be attributed
>> to as a reason of writing. It could simply be a matter of taste and
>> culture or the game reviewer.
>>
>US scores were less than the Japanese scores, and MANY cases where they
>were significantly higher. There are jaded RPG players in both countries
>reviewing, so that can't be the only reason.
It would be interesting to compare scores of a Japanese review of a US game translated
for the Japanese market compared to the scores the game got in the coutry of origin.
Or even better: have there been RPGs from other companies that got rave reviews in
Japan but got so - so reviews here?
______________________________________________________________________
Wendell Hong "Begining a tradition of redundancy" ^_^
Advertising Manager
Limelight Publishing Co.
http://planet-hawaii.com/lime
-=-
Anime and Manga Online(AaMO)!
Check out: http://www.cris.com/~akiyama/aamo.html
Sujith Kalathiveetil
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Victor Ireland wrote:
> In article <34C38F...@roch875.mc.xerox.com>,
> md...@roch875.mc.xerox.com says...
> > Victor Ireland wrote:
> > >
> > --snip--
> > > Trying to answer honest questions honestly, and refuting anything too
> > > outrageous outright. Everything in between I'm taking in and chalking it
> > > up to the typical grief over a system's death.
> >
> > --snip--
> >
> > You're being too kind. I grieved when my dog died, but someone who
> > 'grieves' over the 'death' of a gaming console is in serious need of a
> > life. IMHO.
> >
>
> True, but there are a significant number of people who have their own
> self worth tied up with their chosen hardware "team" in the videogame
> arena. Fortunately, most are pretty young, and grow out of it
> eventually. No comment on the rest. :)
>
> Actually, we were just talking today in the office about re-opening some
> of our Turbografx hate mail (we save everything!) and putting it side-by-
> side with some of the current "hate mail" from Saturn users (it's
> running 90-10 in favor of our decision, BTW, slightly more supportive
> than during the TG's death, when it was about 60-40 in favor of). The
> similiarites are striking, except that then, SEGA was the "evil" company
> for "stealing us" from TTi and the Turbografx. <sigh>
>
> Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic
>
>
Hi Vic. Your comments remind of the tragic irony of Sega's current
situation. I own a Saturn and a PSX, but I also owned a TG-16. Being 14
when the TG-16 kicked the bucket, I remember how much I hated the devils
at Sega for killing the TG-16 with their Genesis system. I only owned a
few of your games (Cosmic Fantasy 2 and Vasteel), but I still considered
WD a traitor for switching camps. I went on to buy an SNES as I refused to
"lower myself" into buying a Genesis. I loved my SNES, but I would often
go to my friends' houses to play their Genesis systems, which I couldn't
buy because it felt morally wrong. Sound really strange? It was. In
hindsight, not buying a Genesis was one of my biggest regrets. I came to
see that videogame systems are not political parties; they are merely
mediums of artistic expression for videogame designers. I read this
newsgroup regularly and I feel pangs of deja vu when I see all the
attacks against you leaving to the antichrist-like PSX camp. For all Sega
supporters who feel betrayed by Vic's decision, know that this is the
same way TG-16 users felt when the Genesis kicked the S**T out of the
TG-16 once and for all. I even remember arrogant Genesis users posting on
TG-16 newsgroups (this was way back before the age of reason: when I used
Prodigy) how the the superiority of the Genesis inevitably hammered the
TG-16. Quite similar to how PSX users post the same things here when they
have nothing bettter to do. The TG-16 was a good system which met its fate not
because of Sega, but because of the incompetence of NEC in marketing the
system. The same can be said of the former champion Sega. I believe there
is an old French proverb that says "The more things change, the more
things stay the same". I got over my hard feelings to Sega and bought a
Saturn because it had such great 2D fighters, something which I felt was
kind of lacking on the PSX I own. I love my Saturn even as it sinks
beneath the waters like the Titanic. But, I love my PSX as well, so I ask
everyone here to keep an open mind on what system to buy next. For
example, everyone here is complaining about how we have no Lunar or
Grandia to play stateside. These missing games are indeed terrible losses,
but you're forgetting that there are fantastic RPG games here in the US
like FFVII, Suikoden, Wild Arms, and yes... Lunar. I know that not
everybody here has the cash (or incentive) to go buy a PSX. Fine. But if
you do, and won't buy one just because you hate Sony or WD, then I hope
you realize what you're missing out on because of your strange expression
of loyalty to Sega. Finally, please don't go buy a Sega Katana the day it
comes out just because you want to celebrate Sega's return to the
marketplace. As much as I liked the TG-16, the next time NEC even
considers releasing a new system, they better damn well show me that they
have their act together about marketing it. Nintendo, no matter how you
feel about them, is the only videogame company which has proven it is not
a one-hit wonder in this category (at least in the US). So, let Sega
demonstrate to us, its loyal Saturn supporters, that it can market the
Katana properly before we rush out and buy it. If Sega doesn't have their
act together, then DON'T GET IT unless you're ready to be back in the same
situation you are now. Finally, Vic, no matter what the videogame system
is, keep producing great games. I would have never thought 7 years ago
that WD would be around after so many other good 3rd party companies have
fallen as casualties in the war in which you must take part.
Congratulations, and remember we back you up not because of the systems
you support, but because of the games that you bring over here.
PS There is one thing I've never forgiven you for, and I've always wanted
an answer about: What were you smoking when you approved the soundtrack to
Vasteel? Admit it... there must have been some kind of a mixup. I have
a lot of trouble believing you actually thought it would sound good to put
some really slow and corny jazz to a game about tactical combat between
battlemchs!
Dr. Cossack
>> I grieved when my dog died, but someone who 'grieves' over the 'death' of
a gaming console is in serious need of a life. IMHO.
> True, but there are a significant number of people who have their own
self worth tied up with their chosen hardware "team" in the videogame
arena. Fortunately, most are pretty young, and grow out of it
eventually. No comment on the rest. :)
> Actually, we were just talking today in the office about re-opening some
of our Turbografx hate mail (we save everything!) and putting it side-by-
side with some of the current "hate mail" from Saturn users (it's
running 90-10 in favor of our decision, BTW, slightly more supportive
than during the TG's death, when it was about 60-40 in favor of). The
similiarites are striking, except that then, SEGA was the "evil" company
for "stealing us" from TTi and the Turbografx. <sigh>
> Don't Believe the Hype -
Vic
The reason more people are abusive nowadays is because they have more ways
to be abusive. The internet wasn't very available in the TG-16 days, but
now almost everyone uses it. The internet allows people to send their
messages en masse, whereas people who write their letters on paper would
usually take more consideration (I would think). Second, the internet lets
people find out very easily what they're not getting, as opposed to
magazines which only delve into great imports sporatically. You're doing no
worse today than you were in the TG-16 days, it's just easier for people to
get riled up.
Dr. Cossack
>> This I have to disagree with Vic. How can you fairly compare review
ratings of a game from Japan and the US? Japanese reviewers have
obviously played more RPGs, and have different tastes and culture than US
game reviewers. I don't think a difference of scores could be attributed
to as a reason of writing. It could simply be a matter of taste and
culture or the game reviewer.
> But in EVERY case? I can't think of a single game we've done where out
> US scores were less than the Japanese scores, and MANY cases where they
> were significantly higher. There are jaded RPG players in both countries
> reviewing, so that can't be the only reason.
> Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic
Japanese reviewers get a lot more RPGs to play than US reviewers do, so they
have a lot less patience with the bad ones. However, I can't think of any
genre that US reviewers get more of. Sports or war sims maybe?
Darrius Joiner
> But in EVERY case? I can't think of a single game we've done where out
> US scores were less than the Japanese scores, and MANY cases where they
> were significantly higher. There are jaded RPG players in both countries
> reviewing, so that can't be the only reason.
OK I throw my log on the fire. Why not? Well although it's easy to blame WD
or Sony the truth of the matter is that it sucks to see this game come out on
PSX. If Square can go to Sony why not WD?! I know I hate it's come this also
but alas it's said and done. Even though I too grow weary of some of WD's
joke's (the Ebonics reference is still out of line IMHO). I'll always remember
WD as the company who brought us 2 games that no other company would've readily
cosidered. Those 2 gems are Cosmic Fantasy 2 and Popful Mail. These games were
for the FANS, and I'm sure there were other projects that WD could've
considered instead of these two titles. I am also very proud of the fact that
WD did fight for the names in MKR. I am a big fan of the series and several
fans I know are GLAD he did what he did. Yeah we don't get Grandia, or Lunar
but I am painfully accepting that reality. Besides I think by WD releasing
Lunar EB on Sega CD at the end of it's life span kinda balances things out. So
I 've said my $0.02. Too bad the US gamers won't be seeing any of the cancelled
SPAZ titles (Metal Slug, Silhouette Mirage, ThunderForce V etc.). Oh well
that's why I've always imported. Later.....
SR Dominguez
Peter and Tracy Cook <"cookster@ma"@ma.ultranet.com> wrote:
: The only good thing on Saturn your company has produced
: was Albert Odyessey.
While it's heartening to see someone standing up to Vic, you're talking
utter toss. Albert Odyssey was absolutely dreadful compared to the Lunar
games and Dragon force!
"I need some time to make it all clear,
To write off lines that don't make sense.
Love myself better than you;
Know it's wrong, so what should I do?"
-Nirvana, On A Plain
"They do things differently in America. They call a handbag a purse, and a
purse a pocketbook. Quite mad, the Americans. Quite mad."
-Robert Rankin, A Dog Called Demolition
SIMON DOMINGUEZ (u5...@keele.ac.uk)
Goth Cid in Seiken DenCidSu
He just popped up to say hello, and now he's gone back down below.
Mary Jo DiBella
Ronald Spillman wrote:
>
>
> Not me. I got virtually every system I own "daisy-chained" to the TV
> (Saturn, PSX, SNES, NES, Genny/Sega CD, TG-16)...Then, when I'm in the
> mood to play Lunar SSS, or Jet Moto, or Mario collection, or Lunar
> EB, or Alien Crush, I know I don't have to fiddle with anything; just
> pop'em in...Never get rid of yer old systems, folks; you'll just end
> up missing a favorite game when it's gone (Now if only Nintendo would
> make a Zelda collection, like they did with Mario, I'd be happy...:)
> --
> Ron Spillman
> Too old to avoid paying taxes, too young to die.......
> [HEADLINE] Midshipman exposes backside in front of Studio Alta: now
> shipmates call him Sailor Moon; Film at 11:)
I just make sure that every TV I buy has a video connection in the front
of the set, readily available for fast switches between devices. That
way I can change between video consoles in a moment, or plug in my DVD
player and watch a movie.
MJ
Frank M. Goldman
Barberman wrote in message <69pgnl$ila$1...@usenet87.supernews.com>...
>
>I hear ya, I cant (and havent) touch any of WD games just for the fact
>that it totally sickens me to see WD's name on an otherwise great game.
> I've said it again and again, WD sucks, they always have and always
>will.
>
Yeah, it really sucks to see a great American company that's loyal to it's
fans bring over a game the average gamer couldn't play because it's not in
his or her native language, doesn't it? And I also HATE how they foil stamp
their covers and print full color manuals. I've said it again and again,
people like you suck, they always have and always will.
Colt Duncan
>
>--
>BARBERMAN
>barb...@wichita.fn.net
>"I am gamer, hear me curse!"
>
Thornburg
Get an A/V switch. I wasn't sure it was worth $20 when I picked one up,
but now I'm wishing I'd paid more for one w/more hookups (mine only has
enough room for 4 things, which is the current count of my video games
systems).
R. Thornburg
SR Dominguez
Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
: Er, how can you tell if a translation is "poor" when your English
: skills are marginal? WD's translations have very good pacing, grammar,
: and a natural flow to the dialogue that most other, non-WD translations
: lack.
My English skills aren't marginal (I'm grammar school educated), and I don't
like WD translations because of the westernisation of the text. Plenty of
people share this gripe (it's not just me) so you have to wonder why WD
can't just compromise. After all, the later Square games struck a decent
balance, and while lines like Kefka's 'you're all like characters from a
self-help booklet' are a tad cringeworthy, you can appreciate that the flow
of the translation overall appeals to MOST people. What irks me is that
VIctor Ireland just ignores the people who don't like his jokes, just saying
that it's 'their problem'. If Vic cared as much as is reputed, he would
try to strike the balance. It isn't 'my problem'. It's his, because I
won't buy the games he translates, instead preferring to import the Japanese
version. But it's irritating all the same, that I can't enjoy a game in a
language that is more familiar to me.
________________________________
|Turbo Duo, Saturn, Megadrive,| Rachel Ryan (please do not try to
|SNES, PC Engine GT, Playstation,| sway me with those
|Nintendo 64, Virtual Boy, Multi-| pro-console rants, I
|Mega, Nomad, NES, Master System.| *OWN* them all)
|________________________________|
........................."NiGHTS wa itsumo anata no yume no naka ni imasu"..
: --- ---
SR Dominguez
Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
: In article <34C244...@netvigator.com>, n...@netvigator.com says...
: > I have tried most of you games and I am sure your translation are very
: > poor. You just add lots of toilet humor to destroy the original feeling
: > of the games.
: Considering that LUNAR had its share of "toilet humor" in the original
: Japanese version, I wonder if you really played it or if it went over
: your head.
It does have toilet humour. But not to the grand extent of the US version
(and I'm mainly talking about Lunar EB here). Another thing that's
apparent is that the toilet humour in the Japanese original somehow fits the
style of the game. With the US versions, it looks OTT. Maybe that's
because at the end of the day, you're playing a Japanese style game with
Japanese humour. When you take that Japanese game and put Western humour in
it, it's just not congruous with the original design. Another thing you
have to remember is that toilet humour's not as acceptable in the US.
Leaving it in, even embellishing it, is going to annoy a lot of people.
Until you accept that, there's little point arguing about it. In fact,
there is no point to arguing at all, if you are never going to change your
mind about the humour, you have to realise that there are people whose
opinions will always differ from yours. And that does not make them stupid.
: >I can share my opinion as I tried the Jap versions.
: Tried the japanese verisons, or FINISHED them? There is a difference.
I raise my hand as somebody who finishes Japanese games. There isn't much
of a difference, if you don't like a game - you don't feel inclined to
finish it. Whereas I finished most WD translations for reasons of
necessity, and that didn't really change my mind about how I felt about the
overall tone of the rewrites.
: > Your games got good sell in US just because the Japan version is good,
: > not your translation. FF VII, not translated by your company, also sell
: > good in US.
: >
: Then how do you explain the fact that Albert Odyssey rated an average of
: 5-6 (of 10) in Japan, while it rated 7-9 here? The only thing that
: changed significantly was the writing. Ditto Alundra. Scores in Japan
: of 6-7 there, while they were 8-9 here. The only major change was the
: writing (and a new opening animation for Alundra).
Vic, you do present yourself as having an enormous ego. This just
accentuates this particular opinion that people have of you. How can you
improve a game just from the writing? What matters is GAMEPLAY. Albert
Odyssey was toss, no matter how good the writing was (and it was perhaps the
best of your translations). I rated it 67% in one review for a magazine,
6/10 in another. Reviewers in the West generally haven't played as many
examples of one particular genre as those in Japan have. And reviewers in
Japan have higher standards. Why is this, you ask? Well, who makes better
games, the Japanese or the Americans? Answer yourself this question, and
you begin to see why the Japanese have higher standards.
As somebody who goes out of their way to play most examples of their
favourite genres, my review scores usually reflect those printed in the
Japanese press.
: > You just try to fool US Saturn users.
: >
: That right we just try to fool stupid saturn user with our bad writing.
And this is downright insulting. The guy who you are speaking to is
obviously foriegn or dyslexic. He can do without this brand of
'encouragement'.
Castellan
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
>Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
>: Er, how can you tell if a translation is "poor" when your English
>: skills are marginal? WD's translations have very good pacing, grammar,
>: and a natural flow to the dialogue that most other, non-WD translations
>: lack.
>My English skills aren't marginal (I'm grammar school educated), and I don't
>like WD translations because of the westernisation of the text.
That's all very fine and well, but the original poster could barely
even make himself understood, so poor was his English grammar and syntax.
Such a minimum level of English literacy hardly leaves him fit to judge the
quality of the translation; hence, his claims that the translations were
"poor" are dubious at best, and utterly hypocritical at worst. Expecting him
to understand the nuances and vernacular that comprise the "Westernization"
in a game translation when he can hardly even make himself understood is
remarkably presumptuous.
You may be fit to criticize the quality of the translations (assuming
you read Japanese as well as you do English, which is also questionable); the
previous poster has proven that he is not fit to so.
> Plenty of
>people share this gripe (it's not just me) so you have to wonder why WD
>can't just compromise. After all, the later Square games struck a decent
>balance, and while lines like Kefka's 'you're all like characters from a
>self-help booklet' are a tad cringeworthy, you can appreciate that the flow
>of the translation overall appeals to MOST people.
The Square translations were so mediocre as to be painful, lacking
any sort of personality or conversational verve to distinguish the
characters from one another. They READ like translations, and, as a writer,
I find that personally abhorrent. I, as most other gamers do, play games
to be entertained, and, in such a game where the story is integral, I
expect the writing to be of the same level of polish as the rest of the
game's mechanics. A good analogy, in terms of game translation, is porting
the code needed to read a specific set of inputs from a PC joystick,
which may work great for the PC game, to a Playstation port without making
the necessary changes. The result is awkward, klunky, uninspired control
with very little polish. Localization should fit the overall audience, not
the desires of the avid minority. All of the FF translations have been
literal and silly in their unnatural dialogue, with no attempts at
stylistic variations between the characters. FF7 attempted to repair this,
but wound up with a collection of cliches. Personally, I find the occasional
Bill Clinton joke or piece of sexual innuendo (the Japanese Lunars also
had several anachronistic jokes referring to the contemporary pop culture
scene as well as plenty of sexual humor) far less distracting (not to
mention quite a bit more funny) than the "You spoony bard!" or "son of
a submariner"-type passages in the awkward SNES Final Fantasy translations.
Why the American version of a Lunar title making references to American
culture is bad, while the Japanese version referring to Japanese culture
is not is a piece of logic that's well beyond me.
You need to lighten up while playing games. They're *games*, for
Bob's sake, not bloody Robert Browning. If you don't like the American
references, and can't seem to overlook the fact that it's written with
an *American* audience in mind (for most of whom RPGs are not a life-or-
-death matter), you're better off purchasing the Japanese version and
conveniently overlooking the Japanese anachronistic humor, since it's
obvious which culture you prefer.
> What irks me is that
>VIctor Ireland just ignores the people who don't like his jokes, just saying
>that it's 'their problem'. If Vic cared as much as is reputed, he would
>try to strike the balance. It isn't 'my problem'. It's his, because I
>won't buy the games he translates, instead preferring to import the Japanese
>version. But it's irritating all the same, that I can't enjoy a game in a
>language that is more familiar to me.
You're in the minority, like it or nay. The vocalizations of a
rabid few on USENET do not a majority imply; you're simply an anecdotal
case. Vic has said on countless occasions that the lion's share of the
feedback on WD translations is largely positive. If you prefer banal,
verbatim translations in which very little of the original Japanese
sylistic evocations are retained, that's fine, but don't expect Vic to
alienate the majority of his purchasing audience just to please you.
I play games to be entertained. I don't care what liberalities Vic
takes with the translation so long as the final product is polished, coherent,
and, of course, entertaining. The fact that you don't like his translations
really isn't his "problem," as you (and those who agree with you) aren't
cutting into his sales one whit, as Alundra's success has proven.
Ken Arromdee
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> wrote:
>: Then how do you explain the fact that Albert Odyssey rated an average of
>: 5-6 (of 10) in Japan, while it rated 7-9 here? The only thing that
>: changed significantly was the writing. Ditto Alundra. Scores in Japan
>: of 6-7 there, while they were 8-9 here. The only major change was the
>: writing (and a new opening animation for Alundra).
>Vic, you do present yourself as having an enormous ego. This just
>accentuates this particular opinion that people have of you. How can you
>improve a game just from the writing? What matters is GAMEPLAY. Albert
>Odyssey was toss, no matter how good the writing was (and it was perhaps the
>best of your translations). I rated it 67% in one review for a magazine,
>6/10 in another.
I'm just going to say I agree. Albert Odyssey was mediocre.
It got better ratings than in Japan because everyone was starved for good
RPG titles here and there wasn't much to compare it against. (Maybe Shining
the Holy Ark, which was similarly mediocre, especially if you don't use any
hint books and have to tediously search every single maze wall to find the
faeries.)
--
Ken Arromdee |They said it was *daft* to build a space
arro...@inetnow.net |station in a swamp, but I showed them! It
karr...@nyx.nyx.net |sank unto the swamp. So I built a second
http://www.inetnow.net/~arromdee|space station. That sank into the swamp too.
--------------------------------+My third space station sank into the swamp.
So I built a fourth one. That fell into a time warp and _then_ sank into the
swamp. But the fifth one... stayed up! --Monty Python/Babylon 5
Joe Ottoson
SR Dominguez wrote:
>
> Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
> : Considering that LUNAR had its share of "toilet humor" in the original
> : Japanese version, I wonder if you really played it or if it went over
> : your head.
>
> It does have toilet humour. But not to the grand extent of the US version
> (and I'm mainly talking about Lunar EB here). Another thing that's
> apparent is that the toilet humour in the Japanese original somehow fits the
> style of the game.
Eh? It's great, fine and dandy in Japanese, but when it's immediately
recognizable in English, it's in poor taste? That's a nasty three edged
sword you've brought to the table...
With the US versions, it looks OTT. Maybe that's
> because at the end of the day, you're playing a Japanese style game with
> Japanese humour. When you take that Japanese game and put Western humour in
> it, it's just not congruous with the original design.
So, there's Westren toilet humor, and the much more dignified and
relevant Eastren toilet humor? How can toilet humor cease to be part of
the design, when it *was* part of the inital dsign?
Another thing you
> have to remember is that toilet humour's not as acceptable in the US.
With all due respect, you're not really in a posistion to proclaim US
taboos. (kind of like that pocketbook quote of yout signifigant other,
it misses by a little, and a lot at the same time) Toilet humor's been a
major aspect of humor in everything from children's books to TV shows.
Where did you come across this assertion in the first place?
> Leaving it in, even embellishing it, is going to annoy a lot of people.
Except they remain a minority in the overall WD fanbase (which in
effect, proves your assertion wrong)
> : > You just try to fool US Saturn users.
> : >
>
> : That right we just try to fool stupid saturn user with our bad writing.
>
> And this is downright insulting. The guy who you are speaking to is
> obviously foriegn or dyslexic. He can do without this brand of
> 'encouragement'.
>
OTOH, Vic didn't really deserve the flame. It smacked of sour grapes,
and was completely devoid of any real facts (that's what made the
response stupid, not the bad syntax and grammar).
Lan
Ken Arromdee wrote:
>
> SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> wrote:
> >: Then how do you explain the fact that Albert Odyssey rated an average of
> >: 5-6 (of 10) in Japan, while it rated 7-9 here? The only thing that
> >: changed significantly was the writing. Ditto Alundra. Scores in Japan
> >: of 6-7 there, while they were 8-9 here. The only major change was the
> >: writing (and a new opening animation for Alundra).
> >Vic, you do present yourself as having an enormous ego. This just
> >accentuates this particular opinion that people have of you. How can you
> >improve a game just from the writing? What matters is GAMEPLAY. Albert
> >Odyssey was toss, no matter how good the writing was (and it was perhaps the
> >best of your translations). I rated it 67% in one review for a magazine,
> >6/10 in another.
>
> I'm just going to say I agree. Albert Odyssey was mediocre.
>
> It got better ratings than in Japan because everyone was starved for good
> RPG titles here and there wasn't much to compare it against.
Also because WD made a bunch of improvements to gameplay like decreasing
load times and making your character walk faster,etc. and they probably
made the text alot more interesting.
>(Maybe Shining
> the Holy Ark, which was similarly mediocre, especially if you don't use any
> hint books and have to tediously search every single maze wall to find the
> faeries.)
I don't think StHA or AO was mediocre at all.Nothing awesome but pretty
solid games,IMO.
Castellan
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
>: Considering that LUNAR had its share of "toilet humor" in the original
>: Japanese version, I wonder if you really played it or if it went over
>: your head.
>It does have toilet humour. But not to the grand extent of the US version
>(and I'm mainly talking about Lunar EB here). Another thing that's
>apparent is that the toilet humour in the Japanese original somehow fits the
>style of the game. With the US versions, it looks OTT. Maybe that's
>because at the end of the day, you're playing a Japanese style game with
>Japanese humour. When you take that Japanese game and put Western humour in
>it, it's just not congruous with the original design. Another thing you
>have to remember is that toilet humour's not as acceptable in the US.
What ARE you talking about, Rachel? Toilet humor not popular in
the US? Come again? In case the constant references in these subs failed
to clue you in, there's this little show called "South Park," which is
NOTHING but pure, unadulterated (literally) toilet humor, and is one of
the highest rated shows on cable television. What, do all Brits still think
of us as prudish, nose-in-the-air Puritans? Toilet humor is especially
appealing to the sort of demographic here which plays video games, something
which should be apparent from glancing at the often lurid visuals of US
magazine advertisements.
The only thing that makes the Lunar series, in its original form,
markedly Japanese, is the manga style and the cultural references. Take
away the cultural references, and you're left with big-eyed people that talk
like Americans. I see very little incongruity in that; you're simply
letting your preference for one particular culture shine through. Personally,
I'd rather have polished, realistic American dialogue over awkward Woolsey-
-esque translations, seeing as I'm from *gasp* America. I could give a
rat's ass as to whether or not the original story is retained, especially
if I have to endure the silly non sequiturs and bizarre word associations
that result from literal translation. All I ask is that I be entertained;
any story, be it accurate to the original or a complete rewrite, will suffice
for this purpose, as long as it is PROPERLY DELIVERED.
>Leaving it in, even embellishing it, is going to annoy a lot of people.
No, it will only annoy a FEW people who either:
A) Have played the original and have some bizarre loyalty to
the original Japanese content
- or -
B) Take the stories of their games just a little too seriously,
to the point that they can't enjoy a little comic relief
- or -
C) Have absolutely no sense of humor, period.
There aren't many gamers like that - sorry.
>Until you accept that, there's little point arguing about it.
And you'll have to learn to accept the fact that WD is an
American company, localizing games for American audiences, who are
more than willing to buy their games. In case you hadn't heard, Alundra
is selling off of the shelves, despite having a character that speaks
like a South Beach native and a lot of really funny (IMHO) sexual innuendo.
> In fact,
>there is no point to arguing at all, if you are never going to change your
>mind about the humour,
As long as WD games sell, he won't.
you have to realise that there are people whose
>opinions will always differ from yours. And that does not make them stupid.
He knows that there are people with opinions different from his. He
also knows that there are people who buy his games, and those who don't. If
you aren't planning to buy WD titles, why should he listen to your opinion?
And if you ARE going to buy his games, regardless of the translation, why
should he decide against the majority in your favor?
Rachel, I think you're simply being negative because of Lunar's
move to the PS, and the decline of the Saturn RPG market in both the
US and GB. I'm sure you're aware that SoE had assumed that WD was going
to translate Grandia, and that Grandia's release in the UK was entirely
dependent on that arrangement. Sour grapes make for bad wine - it's time
to move on.
SR Dominguez
Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
: The decision was made in November 1997. Prior to that, a dual release was
: planned. If we had announced LUNAR was canned for Saturn without
: announcing the PS replacement (which we were contractually bound not to
: until January 1998), would you have jumped in with the other flamers and
: braised us? Sure you would have!
: This was the best way to handle the situation, given the circumstances.
It still smacks of playing us all for idiots. I personally have no great
problems with PSX Lunar - fine, I say, give the Western PSX market some
class. I'm still bitter that we could have been saved all those months of
anticipation, though.
SIG QUOTE OF THE WEEK: "I don't do quiet."
-Melanie Brown
SIMON DOMINGUEZ (u5...@keele.ac.uk)
SR Dominguez
Joe Ottoson <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote:
: taboos. (kind of like that pocketbook quote of yout signifigant other,
: it misses by a little, and a lot at the same time)
Actually, I included that quote because the humour lay in the laughing at
the person who made it because it's *so* English and stiff. This was also
the intention of the author who wrote it. This is called irony.
SR Dominguez
Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
: Actually, we were just talking today in the office about re-opening some
: of our Turbografx hate mail (we save everything!) and putting it side-by-
: side with some of the current "hate mail" from Saturn users.
Sounds like a laugh. :)
SR Dominguez
Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
: SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
: >it, it's just not congruous with the original design. Another thing you
: >have to remember is that toilet humour's not as acceptable in the US.
: What ARE you talking about, Rachel? Toilet humor not popular in
: the US?
Look, Doug. I usually try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but *What*
is wrong with yout hearing?
Rachel: Toilet humour is not as acceptable in the US.
Doug: What? Toilet humour's not popular in the US?
For any example of the point Rachel was making, try playing Toilet Kids or
Chan v Chan on the PC Engine.
SR Dominguez
Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
: Funny that Dragon Force was noted as Saturn Game of the Year by a number
: of publications, not the least of which were EGM and SEGA themselves!
Don'y quote magazines as a source of authority, Vic. They called Suikoden
game of the year and said that Beyond the Beyond had a "Rich and detailed
plot."
: 5th grade playground mentality does not work in the big, bad world of
: business. You're wish is not realistic, given SEGA's sorry state in
: America, and the poor track record of their current management.
That *is* an acceptable arguament. The thing is, we never really perceived
you as pandering to that sort of attitude. We loved you for translating PCE
games, we loved you for translaing Sega CD games, now it kinda looks like
you're selling out. I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but that's what it
feels like when you loose respect for someone in that way.
Castellan
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
>Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
>: the US?
>Look, Doug. I usually try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but *What*
>is wrong with yout hearing?
Good Lord, did you read my response at ALL? I gave several salient
examples, including US game advertsing and TV shows popular with our
demographic showing that "toilet humor" is quite in. I'll retype them in
a follow-up if needs be.
>Rachel: Toilet humour is not as acceptable in the US.
>Doug: What? Toilet humour's not popular in the US?
>For any example of the point Rachel was making, try playing Toilet Kids or
>Chan v Chan on the PC Engine.
Toilet humor is accepted among the videogaming demographic, which
is *surprise surprise!* the market WD is making their games for. For
an example of the point *I* was making, flip through an American magazine,
watch South Park, read any of a number of underground comics, or play a
Working Designs game.
Castellan
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
>Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
>: Funny that Dragon Force was noted as Saturn Game of the Year by a number
>: of publications, not the least of which were EGM and SEGA themselves!
>Don'y quote magazines as a source of authority, Vic. They called Suikoden
>game of the year and said that Beyond the Beyond had a "Rich and detailed
>plot."
So who is he supposed to regard as an authority? You? Rachel? What
makes you more qualified to judge his games than other magazine reviewers?
Your cynical perspective? Your believedly superior tastes?
>: 5th grade playground mentality does not work in the big, bad world of
>: business. You're wish is not realistic, given SEGA's sorry state in
>: America, and the poor track record of their current management.
>That *is* an acceptable arguament. The thing is, we never really perceived
>you as pandering to that sort of attitude. We loved you for translating PCE
>games, we loved you for translaing Sega CD games, now it kinda looks like
>you're selling out. I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but that's what it
>feels like when you lose respect for someone in that way.
So why can't you love him for translating Playstation games? It's
not like he's decided to pull an Acclaim and start releasing trashy Marvel-
-licensed platformers. He and WD are doing what they've walys done - translate,
localize, and release quality Japanese games in America. Selling out is when
you quit providing what your fans are used to in favor of the fast buck. On
the other hand, no business is going to keep providing when there are no
"bucks" to be made, no matter how dedicated they are. WD is still providing
the types of games their fans are used to seeing released by them; the platform
they appear on is irrelevant. If your only criterion for "selling out" is the
change of platforms, then WD "sold out" when they moved from the TG16 to
the Sega CD, and from the Sega CD to the Saturn. This transition is no
different.
Sit back, take a deep breath, and quit playing the console advocacy
card. You and Rachel are still a little sore over the Saturn losing viability
as a the possible Western RPG console of choice. Sorry to burst your little
bubble of underdog elitism, but you need to come to grips with reality, and
face the fact that Playstation is going to be the RPG fans' console of
choice for a couple years now.
SR Dominguez
Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
: SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
: >Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
: >Look, Doug. I usually try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but *What*
: >is wrong with yout hearing?
: Good Lord, did you read my response at ALL? I gave several salient
: examples, including US game advertsing and TV shows popular with our
: demographic showing that "toilet humor" is quite in. I'll retype them in
: a follow-up if needs be.
: >Rachel: Toilet humour is not as acceptable in the US.
: >Doug: What? Toilet humour's not popular in the US?
: >For any example of the point Rachel was making, try playing Toilet Kids or
: >Chan v Chan on the PC Engine.
: Toilet humor is accepted among the videogaming demographic, which
: is *surprise surprise!* the market WD is making their games for. For
: an example of the point *I* was making, flip through an American magazine,
: watch South Park, read any of a number of underground comics, or play a
: Working Designs game.
Okay. Let's try to put this one word at a time.
"NOT... ...AS... ...ACCEPTABLE."
"NOT... ...AS."
Not "Not acceptable." Not "Not accepted." But "Not **AS** acceptable." Do
you think that anyone could get away with a game like Toilet Kids where you
kill enemies by throwing shit at them in America? Toilet humour is not
acceptable to the same extent in the west as it is in Japan! Why do you
insist on turning that into a punch-up?
Lord of deXness
Castellan wrote:
>
[some stuff I've snipped directed at SR Dominguez]
I love watching arguments where both sides are, in fact, in agreement.
deX!
Castellan
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
>Okay. Let's try to put this one word at a time.
>"NOT... ...AS... ...ACCEPTABLE."
>"NOT... ...AS."
>Not "Not acceptable." Not "Not accepted." But "Not **AS** acceptable." Do
>you think that anyone could get away with a game like Toilet Kids where you
>kill enemies by throwing shit at them in America? Toilet humour is not
>acceptable to the same extent in the west as it is in Japan! Why do you
>insist on turning that into a punch-up?
So how is a game where throwing "feces" is a central part of gameplay
relevant to Working Designs supposed "potty humor"? My point, in case you
missed it, was that Working Designs' level of toilet humor was more than
appropriate enough for its US audience.
Joe Ottoson
SR Dominguez wrote:
>
> Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
>
> : Funny that Dragon Force was noted as Saturn Game of the Year by a number
> : of publications, not the least of which were EGM and SEGA themselves!
>
> Don'y quote magazines as a source of authority, Vic. They called Suikoden
> game of the year and said that Beyond the Beyond had a "Rich and detailed
> plot."
>
> : 5th grade playground mentality does not work in the big, bad world of
> : business. You're wish is not realistic, given SEGA's sorry state in
> : America, and the poor track record of their current management.
>
> That *is* an acceptable arguament. The thing is, we never really perceived
> you as pandering to that sort of attitude.
Usually, there were stores still willing to buy Sega and NEC product and
games at the time. If TRU is turning down copies of MKR, WD's US market
is essentially halved, and the current market isn't exaclty supporting
the Saturn in the first place.
We loved you for translating PCE
> games, we loved you for translaing Sega CD games, now it kinda looks like
> you're selling out.
Just like when WD cruelly yanked the plug on CF3 eh?
Victor Ireland
In article <6aqak1$77e$1...@cfs2.kis.keele.ac.uk>, u5...@keele.ac.uk says...
> Okay. Let's try to put this one word at a time.
>
> "NOT... ...AS... ...ACCEPTABLE."
>
> "NOT... ...AS."
>
> Not "Not acceptable." Not "Not accepted." But "Not **AS** acceptable." Do
> you think that anyone could get away with a game like Toilet Kids where you
> kill enemies by throwing shit at them in America? Toilet humour is not
> acceptable to the same extent in the west as it is in Japan! Why do you
> insist on turning that into a punch-up?
>
>
Because he doesn't agree with your assertion, and neither do I. Do you
even KNOW what South Park IS? There's NO WAY South PArk would fly in
Japan. It's THAT far over the top, and it's VERY popular in the US with
the same demo as videogames.
Please stop eating the beef. Mad Cow Disease is rampant in Britian, and
your symptoms are starting to concern me...it may be too late...
DBTH - Vic
Joe Ottoson
SR Dominguez wrote:
>
> Joe Ottoson <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote:
> : taboos. (kind of like that pocketbook quote of yout signifigant other,
> : it misses by a little, and a lot at the same time)
>
> Actually, I included that quote because the humour lay in the laughing at
> the person who made it because it's *so* English and stiff.
Kind of like Rachel's assertion about US toilet humor...
This was also
> the intention of the author who wrote it. This is called irony.
>
Ah. Was Rachel being ironic as well? Or was she just jumping to
conclusions from the port of Kato and Ken?
Castellan
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) writes:
>In article <6aqak1$77e$1...@cfs2.kis.keele.ac.uk>, u5...@keele.ac.uk says...
>>
>> Not "Not acceptable." Not "Not accepted." But "Not **AS** acceptable." Do
>> you think that anyone could get away with a game like Toilet Kids where you
>> kill enemies by throwing shit at them in America? Toilet humour is not
>> acceptable to the same extent in the west as it is in Japan! Why do you
>> insist on turning that into a punch-up?
>>
>>
>Because he doesn't agree with your assertion, and neither do I. Do you
>even KNOW what South Park IS? There's NO WAY South PArk would fly in
>Japan. It's THAT far over the top, and it's VERY popular in the US with
>the same demo as videogames.
Indeed. The antics in "Toilet Kids" and "Kato and Ken" are rather
stylistic and mild compared to, say, the scatological antics of Mr. Hankey
in the South Park Christmas special. Since she is obviously not familiar
with the show, Mr. Hankey is a giant animated turd, which has an infectuous
Christmas spirit and likes to turn up in the strangest of places, including
people's coffee, and enjoys splattering himself all over every available
surface.
If Rachel doubts the shared demographic of South Park and videogaming,
might I direct her to r.g.v.sony and the assorted IGN websites, where folks
are absolutely CLAMOURING for a South Park video game.
Ghaleon
The thing that buzzes me about this, is that I had this game in mind
when I bought my Saturn. I also had other games in mind, like Dragon
FOrce, but I'm afraid that this game will be a little butchered,
considering the differences between the systems. Hopefully we'll at
least see Shining Force III and Azal!
--
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
| Please support the move to bring the Arc the Lad |
+ series to North America. Sign the petition at +
| http://w3.one.net/~afanassy/petitions/arc |
\~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+/
+ Ghaleon's Home page- http://w3.one.net/~afanassy +
| Lunar WebRing- |
+ http://w3.one.net/~afanassy/webring.html +
----------------------------------------------------
Ghaleon
SR Dominguez wrote:
>
> Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
>
> : Funny that Dragon Force was noted as Saturn Game of the Year by a number
> : of publications, not the least of which were EGM and SEGA themselves!
>
This is not suprising, as every non-saturn owner I've talked to has
said that they might pick up a saturn someday if it's cheap enough just
to play Dragon Force, and Virtua Fighter(lotsa fight fans in my area).
> Don'y quote magazines as a source of authority, Vic. They called Suikoden
Ok, now this is semi-understandable, since Suikdoen had a great story
and music, but....
> game of the year and said that Beyond the Beyond had a "Rich and detailed
> plot."
This is what I find hard to believe. This game would've been total crap
if it was still in the Nintendo era. I have more fun playing games on my
graphing calculator.
And Vic, if you're reading this, what does DBTH mean?
Mike S Reynolds
In article <6aqak1$77e$1...@cfs2.kis.keele.ac.uk>,
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> wrote:
> Do
>you think that anyone could get away with a game like Toilet Kids where you
>kill enemies by throwing shit at them in America?
Apparently you've never seen the Mr. Hanky episode of South Park. "Howdy Ho!"
Mike Reynolds
Marty Chinn
: : announcing the PS replacement (which we were contractually bound not to
: : until January 1998), would you have jumped in with the other flamers and
: : braised us? Sure you would have!
: : This was the best way to handle the situation, given the circumstances.
: It still smacks of playing us all for idiots. I personally have no great
: problems with PSX Lunar - fine, I say, give the Western PSX market some
: class. I'm still bitter that we could have been saved all those months of
: anticipation, though.
Give me a break. If you and Rachel are way too dense to have picked up on
Vic's very obvious hints, then there is nobody to blame but yourself. Vic
has been hinting at this since last summer. Rachel even put her rep on
the line since she was too naive.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty Chinn ** Tokyo Game Show - Sept. 5 - 7, 1997 **
Video Source PlayStation, Nintendo 64, Saturn, Imports
973 Foxglove Dr. M-F: 9:30-6:00, Sa: 10:00-3:00 PST, Sun: Closed
Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Ordering, and Preordering info at:
<408> 720-8575 Voice E-Mail: vids...@netcom.com
<408> 720-8576 FAX WWW : http://www.video-source.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gosu
>Just like when WD cruelly yanked the plug on CF3 eh?
Yeah i am still pissed about that man...CF was(and still is) one of my
fav. RPG series...its sad that we didnt get to see 3 or 4 here :(
SFCode Ver 5.0:
{GN+>++GY(SFZ2A)+FL(SSF2)}
[ac- ch- cn-- c+ cc-- 2+ g m+ n: o os+ !p r(++vs.SCR) s++ sp-- s+ ta t tm-:- th- tr-:- v+]
go...@cris.com
SR Dominguez
Lord of deXness <djp...@bbn.com> wrote:
: Castellan wrote:
: >
: [some stuff I've snipped directed at SR Dominguez]
: I love watching arguments where both sides are, in fact, in agreement.
That's one of the things that pisses me off most about Doug.
Hey, there's an idea. I now officially declare Doug to be my best friend.
From this moment forth I will be in complete agreement with him, whether he
admits it or not. (Rubs hands together, hobbles back to tower cackling
evilly.)
SR Dominguez
Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
: So how is a game where throwing "feces" is a central part of gameplay
: relevant to Working Designs supposed "potty humor"? My point, in case you
: missed it, was that Working Designs' level of toilet humor was more than
: appropriate enough for its US audience.
I wasn't disputing that. It just bugs me when you ignore what someone says
and then leap down their throat.
Okay, let's attempt to put a new spin on this conversation to make it more
stimulating. Have you ever noticed how toilet humour is handled differently
in the west to the way it is in Japan? There's definately a subtle
difference there. I can't quite define it, but I can point to an example of
it - like the fact that in an anime where a character gets sexually aroused
he gets a nosebleed, whereas in western stuff they get a... well, you know.
It usually involves tactical concealment of a certain area of the body. :)
Any comment?
SR Dominguez
Ghaleon <gha...@one.net> wrote:
: And Vic, if you're reading this, what does DBTH mean?
It means Don't Believe The Hype. This is one of the most ironic statements
in the history of humanity coming from someone who says that his games are
rated better in American magazines because they are that much better than
the Japanese originals.
SR Dominguez
Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
: So who is he supposed to regard as an authority? You? Rachel? What
: makes you more qualified to judge his games than other magazine reviewers?
: Your cynical perspective? Your believedly superior tastes?
You're missing the point, *again.* US magazines don't know jack shit about
RPGs and they fall over themselves in the mad rush to gobble up every little
piece of hype that appears. 99% of mags I've seen worldwide are the same.
One person's opinion does not outrank another's because they get paid for
expressing it.
: So why can't you love him for translating Playstation games? It's
: not like he's decided to pull an Acclaim and start releasing trashy Marvel-
: -licensed platformers. He and WD are doing what they've walys done - translate,
: localize, and release quality Japanese games in America. Selling out is when
: you quit providing what your fans are used to in favor of the fast buck. On
: the other hand, no business is going to keep providing when there are no
: "bucks" to be made, no matter how dedicated they are. WD is still providing
: the types of games their fans are used to seeing released by them; the platform
: they appear on is irrelevant. If your only criterion for "selling out" is the
: change of platforms, then WD "sold out" when they moved from the TG16 to
: the Sega CD, and from the Sega CD to the Saturn. This transition is no
: different.
Ah, no. What I actually meant was that the criterion for "Selling out" was
going from knocking a line of covering minority consoles because you love
the games that are on it and think that everyone should have a chance to
play them to a line of "Love doesn't pay the bills."
: Sit back, take a deep breath, and quit playing the console advocacy
: card. You and Rachel are still a little sore over the Saturn losing viability
: as a the possible Western RPG console of choice. Sorry to burst your little
: bubble of underdog elitism, but you need to come to grips with reality, and
: face the fact that Playstation is going to be the RPG fans' console of
: choice for a couple years now.
We already have. But we're not sore about the Saturn going down as the N64
import market is just starting to bloom in the UK.
By the way, do you think you could try posting anything that's not
offensive, sarcastic or outright insulting? I'm getting so, so tired of the
way people on this newsgroup argue...
SR Dominguez
Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote:
: Give me a break. If you and Rachel are way too dense to have picked up on
: has been hinting at this since last summer. Rachel even put her rep on
: the line since she was too naive.
I'll ignore the fact that you're so limited you have to resort to playground
name-calling, Marty. The fact is, HE KNEW.
SR Dominguez
Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
: Because he doesn't agree with your assertion, and neither do I. Do you
: even KNOW what South Park IS? There's NO WAY South PArk would fly in
: Japan. It's THAT far over the top, and it's VERY popular in the US with
: the same demo as videogames.
IT'S NOT MY ASSERTION!!!!!!!!! For heaven's sake, I was just defending the
fact that you can get away with more in Japan than you can in America.
You think South Park is strong? You think Ren and Stimpy is strong? The
defence presents exhibit A, a Japanese comic entitled "Rape Man" about a
superhero who deals with women in a certain way.
: Please stop eating the beef. Mad Cow Disease is rampant in Britian, and
: your symptoms are starting to concern me...it may be too late...
Vic, if this is the level that you and your groupies immediately default to
whenever you get into an arguament then frankly you're pathetic. USENET is
meant to be a forum for discussion and conversation, and you guys are making
it quite clear that you can't handle either without regressing to playground
tactics.
Yes, I do know what South Park is. It's like this newsgroup - every week
someone stands up and says "Ohmygod! They lynched Vic!" :)
Mike S Reynolds
In article <MPG.f3a6ad58...@news1.ibm.net>,
Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
>
>Because he doesn't agree with your assertion, and neither do I. Do you
>even KNOW what South Park IS? There's NO WAY South PArk would fly in
>Japan. It's THAT far over the top, and it's VERY popular in the US with
>the same demo as videogames.
Uh, I've seen far, *far* worse anime. In any event I don't think the issue
is whether or not "toilet" humor is acceptable, but rather how much of it
belongs in a game that is also trying to tell a serious/dramatic story.
>Please stop eating the beef. Mad Cow Disease is rampant in Britian, and
>your symptoms are starting to concern me...it may be too late...
You have to love the way the "fan's company" deals with complaints.
Mike Reynolds
nathan stehle
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
>Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote:
>: Give me a break. If you and Rachel are way too dense to have picked up on
>: Vic's very obvious hints, then there is nobody to blame but yourself. Vic
>: has been hinting at this since last summer. Rachel even put her rep on
>: the line since she was too naive.
>I'll ignore the fact that you're so limited you have to resort to playground
>name-calling, Marty. The fact is, HE KNEW.
Yeah, so what's your point? Ever heard of NDA's? Vic dropped some awfully
blatant hints as to what was going on. He said more than I thought he
would.
nathan stehle
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
>Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
>: So who is he supposed to regard as an authority? You? Rachel? What
>: makes you more qualified to judge his games than other magazine reviewers?
>: Your cynical perspective? Your believedly superior tastes?
>You're missing the point, *again.* US magazines don't know jack shit about
>RPGs and they fall over themselves in the mad rush to gobble up every little
>piece of hype that appears. 99% of mags I've seen worldwide are the same.
>One person's opinion does not outrank another's because they get paid for
>expressing it.
Wow, arrogance, I like that. While some mags fall over each RPG scrap, not
all do. The problem with generalizations is that they do not hold 100%. In
my search for good mags, I have buying most of the ones out there. I am
learning more and more that my tastes are different from those of most
reviewers and mags. That's fine. But a long time ago I learned to look
at the text and read between the lines. Anyway...back to the sweeping
generalization you made. Pick up a copy of PSM. It's one of the better
ones out there. Not perfect, but still one of the best available. But
keep in mind, hype sells. Why else would tabloids be so big in th UK? I could
make a sweeping generalization about British press after seeing page three
girls, couldn't I?
>: So why can't you love him for translating Playstation games? It's
>: not like he's decided to pull an Acclaim and start releasing trashy Marvel-
>: -licensed platformers. He and WD are doing what they've walys done - translate,
>: localize, and release quality Japanese games in America. Selling out is when
>: you quit providing what your fans are used to in favor of the fast buck. On
>: the other hand, no business is going to keep providing when there are no
>: "bucks" to be made, no matter how dedicated they are. WD is still providing
>: the types of games their fans are used to seeing released by them; the platform
>: they appear on is irrelevant. If your only criterion for "selling out" is the
>: change of platforms, then WD "sold out" when they moved from the TG16 to
>: the Sega CD, and from the Sega CD to the Saturn. This transition is no
>: different.
>Ah, no. What I actually meant was that the criterion for "Selling out" was
>going from knocking a line of covering minority consoles because you love
>the games that are on it and think that everyone should have a chance to
>play them to a line of "Love doesn't pay the bills."
Selling out? To whom? Talk like that is rubbish and ill-informed.
>: Sit back, take a deep breath, and quit playing the console advocacy
>: card. You and Rachel are still a little sore over the Saturn losing viability
>: as a the possible Western RPG console of choice. Sorry to burst your little
>: bubble of underdog elitism, but you need to come to grips with reality, and
>: face the fact that Playstation is going to be the RPG fans' console of
>: choice for a couple years now.
>We already have. But we're not sore about the Saturn going down as the N64
>import market is just starting to bloom in the UK.
>By the way, do you think you could try posting anything that's not
>offensive, sarcastic or outright insulting? I'm getting so, so tired of the
>way people on this newsgroup argue...
Yeah, but there are all types out here. And your posts are equally insulting
at times. Take everything with grain of salt.
Castellan
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
>Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
>: Because he doesn't agree with your assertion, and neither do I. Do you
>: even KNOW what South Park IS? There's NO WAY South PArk would fly in
>: Japan. It's THAT far over the top, and it's VERY popular in the US with
>: the same demo as videogames.
>IT'S NOT MY ASSERTION!!!!!!!!! For heaven's sake, I was just defending the
>fact that you can get away with more in Japan than you can in America.
>You think South Park is strong? You think Ren and Stimpy is strong? The
>defence presents exhibit A, a Japanese comic entitled "Rape Man" about a
>superhero who deals with women in a certain way.
That's an underground comic, friend; South Park is basic cable.
I could dig you up some truly disgusting underground American comics to
counter your "example" if you wanted.
>Yes, I do know what South Park is. It's like this newsgroup - every week
>someone stands up and says "Ohmygod! They lynched Vic!" :)
Actually, it's "Ohmigod! They've killed rationality!"
Castellan
SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> writes:
>Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
>: So who is he supposed to regard as an authority? You? Rachel? What
>: makes you more qualified to judge his games than other magazine reviewers?
>: Your cynical perspective? Your believedly superior tastes?
>You're missing the point, *again.* US magazines don't know jack shit about
>RPGs and they fall over themselves in the mad rush to gobble up every little
>piece of hype that appears. 99% of mags I've seen worldwide are the same.
>One person's opinion does not outrank another's because they get paid for
>expressing it.
And you DO know jack shit about RPGs? Come *on*. I know quite a few
of these magazine reviewers and I know they have at LEAST the breadth of
experience in RPGs, both American and import, that you and Rachel do. I've
never claimed that these reviewers no more than you, either; I'm simply
claiming that you aren't fit to judge whether they know more or less than
you simply because your personal tastes don't coincide with theirs.
Reviews are simply opinions. If they liked Suikoden and
you didn't, why does your marked distaste for it make your ability to
gauge the "quality" of an RPG better than theirs? My brother, for example,
is an avid RPG fan who has played quite a wide variety of RPG titles, both
domestic and import, and he absolutely loved Suikoden. On the other hand,
I, who hasn't played nearly as many import RPG titles as he has, didn't
care for it. Worldly cynicism doesn't elevate one opinion over another,
much as you'd like to believe it should.
>Ah, no. What I actually meant was that the criterion for "Selling out" was
>going from knocking a line of covering minority consoles because you love
>the games that are on it and think that everyone should have a chance to
>play them to a line of "Love doesn't pay the bills."
Minority, majority - what's the difference? Hardware is hardware.
Vic releases the GAMES he "loves" (and are available) - I would think that
the hardware would be irrelevant to him. Once again, the ol' advocacy card is
being subtly played...
>By the way, do you think you could try posting anything that's not
>offensive, sarcastic or outright insulting? I'm getting so, so tired of the
>way people on this newsgroup argue...
I post quite a bit that isn't "offensive, sarcastic, or outright
insulting," although most of such material is to the Sony group, where
leveller heads (advocates aside) prevail, and games are actually discussed.
The only way, in my rather prolonged USENET experience, to keep rationality
from being utterly defenestrated is to beat it back into line as harshly as
possible. You may not like the approach, and you may not like me, but you
do have to acknowledge that it forces you (and others) to consider your
arguments. Hell, it works pretty effectively on me, as well. When a person's
ego is on the line, irrational hyperbole and blind reaction are often
recanted in favor of more precise language, and that's what I want. I
appreciate subtlety, but that's a foreign concept to most of USENET. Hence,
I play tackle.
You want a happier, fluffier Castellan? Read my game reviews or
comments in threads that are pertinent to the play of particular games.
You want the nasty, aggressive Castellan? Post a bunch of irrational and
silly comments with an undercurrent of system advocacy. I'm a nice guy
until my intellectual leg gets piddled on; then, I have to stand up and
give the pooch a swift kick. All I ask is that people consider what they
post before doing so, or, at the very least, have the good graces not to
act surprised when someone calls them to the table. I've posted my fair
share of ill-considered pap in the past and been thrown to the carpet, but
at LEAST I knew I'd toed the line and wasn't shocked to discover that the
view from the floor was a result of my not having a leg to stand on.
You and Rachel have a beef with Sony, there's no denying it. I
don't care why that is, so long as you don't assume Vic and everybody else
should share or even agree with your dislike. Advocacy is fine until you
start to rationalize it, and that's where I'll jump in. Subjective disputes
are irresolvable and contribute nothing but noise, and a harsh treatment
of the violator will result in less people proferring a similar tack in
the future.
Well, work is starting and I've ranted long enough. If it makes you
(or Rachel) feel any better, I have no actual harsh feelings toward the
posters I respond to; my beef lies with their opinions, not the people
themselves. Have a good one.
Kazenoyume
>Ah, no. What I actually meant was that the criterion for "Selling out" was
>going from knocking a line of covering minority consoles because you love
>the games that are on it and think that everyone should have a chance to
>play them to a line of "Love doesn't pay the bills."
It boggles me that someone could be this extraordinarily thick-headed.
Apparently there are *still* some people who cannot seem to grasp the simple
fact that if Vic were to continue publishing on Saturn, he would have no
company to "sell out" with. Despite your irrational predilection for the SEGA
chips and hardware board as opposed to the soulless, capitalist SONY chips,
what Victor is doing is not selling out in the least. Selling out would be
switching from a company philosophy of releasing relatively niche, cult genres
in the US, such as RPGs and strategy games that appeal to hard-core, devoted
gaming fans, to a steady diet of dime-a-dozen fly by night action, fighter, and
big name license games in an attempt to pander to the average mass market Joe
Duh. You are misusing a term to describe subversion and rejection of artistic
ideals in order to commercialize them with a simple, almost irrelevant change
of publishing venue that will allow them to continue to be the company they
always have been. Then again, if you realize this, you don't get to cop cool
attitudes like "They sold out man! They sold out! Down with the suits!" that
make you look just so much more liberal minded and savvy than us peasant
company-line towing zombies.
~Kazenoyume~
Accredited, card-carrying, professional procrastinator.
"Life's too short to waste time worrying about your problems. For a small
monthly fee, I'll ignore them for you!"
"Oboete! Itsu mo zenbu kimi no sei da yo!"
AtchleyBJ
>IT'S NOT MY ASSERTION!!!!!!!!! For heaven's sake, I was just defending the
>fact that you can get away with more in Japan than you can in America.
>You think South Park is strong? You think Ren and Stimpy is strong? The
>defence presents exhibit A, a Japanese comic entitled "Rape Man" about a
>superhero who deals with women in a certain way.
That's not a mainstream comic and believe me there are FAR worse comics
in the US than Rape Man. Some Network used this as a media bash against
Japanese morality. While in america there are plenty of comics dealing with
such wonderful topics as; Necrophilia, pedophilia, Prison Rape, and blatant
snuff based rape comics. America has it's share of filth, all of which the
world would be a better place without. This isn't about which culture can
handle what smut, potty humor, or controversial themes in comics TV.
As far as what is popular is concerned though. As was previously
mentioned, the show South Park is WILDLY popular. Your original problem was
that It disrupts the flow of the game, correct? As Vic mentioned (or maybe it
was Doug) potty humor was in existence in the original. How is it less
acceptable in the US? We're not talking about rape comics or hard-core porn
here. We're talking about simple humor not even on the southpark level. (Okay
that guy in Lunar 1 who made different diarrhea jokes might find a home in
south park). From what is indicated in Alundra it tends to bend more towards
innuendo. If you've ever seen the Movie "Real Genius" you'll know innuendo is
funny and more than accepted in our culture (PG rated movie by the way).
So your personal opinion is that it disrupts the game. Fine and
good. You're not the majority and arguing about it is obviously fruitless so
give it up and accept the fact there'll be a notch on the bedpost comment from
Kyle at least once And a few other goodies that'll make you laugh.
PS- I must be a moron because Strange Brew is one of my Fav movies and I never
caught the 3B connection until thinking about it today. This movie was made in
3B 3 beers and it starts to look good.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-BJ Atchley=-=-=-=-=-=-Minamoto-no-Yoritomo-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
CarAudio-4x4Toyota-Mtx(The Audio company not the punk band)-Denon
KoRn-ratm-LimpBizkit-Prodigy-CrystalMethod-MustardPlug-O'Phil
ChemBros-SkifDank-Deftones-AphexTwin(Richard D. James)-Invaders-O'Phil
OrsonS.Card-L.Niven-D.Eddings-Life-Rappelling-Alto Sax-sXe-CTR
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Marty Chinn
SR Dominguez (u5...@keele.ac.uk) wrote:
: Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote:
: : Give me a break. If you and Rachel are way too dense to have picked up on
: : Vic's very obvious hints, then there is nobody to blame but yourself. Vic
: : has been hinting at this since last summer. Rachel even put her rep on
: : the line since she was too naive.
: I'll ignore the fact that you're so limited you have to resort to playground
: name-calling, Marty. The fact is, HE KNEW.
Give me a fuckin break. I'm sorry if I'm coming down harsh on you but I'm
seriously fed up with this attitude from people. He knew. Yes. I'm not
disputing that but what you seem to be ignoring is the last 7 months of
hints that has hinted at Lunar coming to PS. Vic has an NDA, and if you
have a clue like you seem to imply you do, you would realize this.
Because of NDA he couldn't flat out say it but damn again he dropped
enough hints that you have to be pretty naive, stupid or biased to not
pick them up and even simply expect that Lunar was coming. Again Rachel
was so flat sure that it wouldn't happen she even said she would put her
reputation on the line. Hell Castellan and I laid out the hints and you
guys wouldn't accept it. You have nobody to blame but yourself for this.
You act as if it came out of nowhere but no its been built up. Now give
it a rest and accept reality. This isn't "playground name-calling" but it
is a slap in the face of reality.
Victor Ireland
In article <6ash9e$j46$3...@cfs2.kis.keele.ac.uk>, u5...@keele.ac.uk says...
> Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote:
>
> : Because he doesn't agree with your assertion, and neither do I. Do you
> : even KNOW what South Park IS? There's NO WAY South PArk would fly in
> : Japan. It's THAT far over the top, and it's VERY popular in the US with
> : the same demo as videogames.
>
> fact that you can get away with more in Japan than you can in America.
> You think South Park is strong? You think Ren and Stimpy is strong? The
> defence presents exhibit A, a Japanese comic entitled "Rape Man" about a
> superhero who deals with women in a certain way.
>
But the DIFFERENCE is that Rape Man was an UNDERGROUND thing in Japan,
NOT broadcast on TV every week. South Park is much more "potty" than ANY
mainstream Japanese program, period. I mean, if you want to talk niches,
the US ones are WAY sicker than the Japanese ones. You're making
comparisons that aren't valid just to make your point.
> : Please stop eating the beef. Mad Cow Disease is rampant in Britian, and
> : your symptoms are starting to concern me...it may be too late...
>
> Vic, if this is the level that you and your groupies immediately default to
> whenever you get into an arguament then frankly you're pathetic. USENET is
> meant to be a forum for discussion and conversation, and you guys are making
> it quite clear that you can't handle either without regressing to playground
> tactics.
>
When people make retarded assertions, I make wry comments. Wry.
Comments. Not personal attacks. Wry. You obviously aren't REALLY in
danger of succumbing to Mad Cow disease. That's what makes it...wry.
> Yes, I do know what South Park is. It's like this newsgroup - every week
> someone stands up and says "Ohmygod! They lynched Vic!" :)
>
Victor Ireland
In article <6ashvl$j46$6...@cfs2.kis.keele.ac.uk>, u5...@keele.ac.uk says...
> Ghaleon <gha...@one.net> wrote:
>
> : And Vic, if you're reading this, what does DBTH mean?
>
> It means Don't Believe The Hype. This is one of the most ironic statements
> in the history of humanity coming from someone who says that his games are
> rated better in American magazines because they are that much better than
> the Japanese originals.
>
Duh. I never said "Don't Believe everyone else's hype, but believe me!"
The line means "Think for yourself", if you had any problem figuring that
out. And, that statement you were only too happy to summarize was not
something we put out in a press release, but an ANSWER to a QUESTION (or
assertion, I don't recall) posted here. Would you rather I disappear
like all the other wonderful CEO's here online?
DBTH - Vic
Victor Ireland
> >Vic, you do present yourself as having an enormous ego. This just
> >accentuates this particular opinion that people have of you. How can you
> >improve a game just from the writing?
Well, you CAN ruin a game by crappy writing. FF 7 English, anyone?
<yawn> The reverse should be true as well, and is.
> > What matters is GAMEPLAY.
Gameplay is VERY important. But, in an RPG, I'll take a well written
story, thank you. The English FF7, and most other ports are so badly
translated/boring/incoherent, that I just can't stand playing them. But
that's MY opinion, and you have yours. The wonderful thing about freedom
is you can get off YOUR butt and actually do some games yourself if you
want to counter our "mediocre" ports. Try it. You'll find it's much
harder than making half-baked assertions to further your personal agenda.
> >Albert
> >Odyssey was toss, no matter how good the writing was (and it was perhaps the
> >best of your translations). I rated it 67% in one review for a magazine,
> >6/10 in another.
Wheehoooo. Who's talking about ego? We are oft reminded of your
sterling freelance credentials in a country that our games are not
directed at. The POINT is, US mags rated it well (generally in the 7-
8.5 range). I couldn't care less what UK mags rated it. We didn't write
the translation for Brits, or the French, or Germans, or Martians,
or...well, anyone but Americans and Canadians.
> >Reviewers in the West generally haven't played as many
> >examples of one particular genre as those in Japan have. And reviewers in
> >Japan have higher standards. Why is this, you ask? Well, who makes better
> >games, the Japanese or the Americans? Answer yourself this question, and
> >you begin to see why the Japanese have higher standards.
> >
>
Bull. What you're leaving out is the FACT that Japan also has a LOT more
CRAP games for consoles AND PC's. The fact that importers filter out 50-
60% of it so te international audience never sees it may make it SEEM the
way you say, but it's just not true IN GENERAL. I will admit that Japan
excels in certain genres, but NOT ALL or even most.
Don't Believe the Hype -
Vic
Joe Ottoson
SR Dominguez wrote:
>
> Castellan <douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> wrote:
> : So who is he supposed to regard as an authority? You? Rachel? What
> : makes you more qualified to judge his games than other magazine reviewers?
> : Your cynical perspective? Your believedly superior tastes?
>
> You're missing the point, *again.* US magazines don't know jack shit about
> RPGs and they fall over themselves in the mad rush to gobble up every little
> piece of hype that appears.
Well, if you go by the same logic that pretains to the "potty humor"
argument, EGM launched with all but one of the editors expressing their
dislike for RPGs in general. So US mags tend to go by that rule. RPG's
are frequently underhyped and underrated in the US mags ;P
I personally missed the rampant hype around Persona (shrug)
>99% of mags I've seen worldwide are the same.
The Japanese mags fall all over every RPG released? Now *that's*
impressive!
> One person's opinion does not outrank another's because they get paid for
> expressing it.
>
Most people can usually draw a reasonable assumption by consensus
though.
Joe Ottoson
SR Dominguez wrote:
> Okay, let's attempt to put a new spin on this conversation to make it more
> stimulating. Have you ever noticed how toilet humour is handled differently
> in the west to the way it is in Japan? There's definately a subtle
> difference there. I can't quite define it, but I can point to an example of
> it - like the fact that in an anime where a character gets sexually aroused
> he gets a nosebleed, whereas in western stuff they get a... well, you know.
> It usually involves tactical concealment of a certain area of the body. :)
>
I had no idea sexual innuendo and potty humor were one and the same...
Joe Ottoson
Gosu wrote:
>
> >Just like when WD cruelly yanked the plug on CF3 eh?
> Yeah i am still pissed about that man...CF was(and still is) one of my
> fav. RPG series...its sad that we didnt get to see 3 or 4 here :(
>
Well, I'm as big a CF fan as anyone, but I'm not going to blame WD over
its loss. That falls squarely on TTi...
The same problem is happening again except now WD's "selling out" away
from Sega rather than from the DUO. It's absurd to blame WD for moving
on when the market has!
I'm sure WD was hoping the SCD would draw a larger userbase than the Duo
as well ya know ;)
Jeremy H.
On 30 Jan 1998 12:32:46 GMT, SR Dominguez <u5...@keele.ac.uk> wrote:
>Yes, I do know what South Park is. It's like this newsgroup - every week
>someone stands up and says "Ohmygod! They lynched Vic!" :)
THOSE BASTARDS!!!!!
Jeremy H.
aba...@get2net.dk
>
>Vic, you do present yourself as having an enormous ego. This just
>accentuates this particular opinion that people have of you. How can you
>improve a game just from the writing? What matters is GAMEPLAY. Albert
>Odyssey was toss, no matter how good the writing was (and it was perhaps the
>best of your translations). I rated it 67% in one review for a magazine,
>6/10 in another. Reviewers in the West generally haven't played as many
>examples of one particular genre as those in Japan have. And reviewers in
>Japan have higher standards. Why is this, you ask? Well, who makes better
>games, the Japanese or the Americans? Answer yourself this question, and
>you begin to see why the Japanese have higher standards.
>
It's funny that you accuse Vic of having an enormous ego, when yours
is atleast twice as big as anyone else in this newsgroup! What makes
your opinion more important than Vic's or anyone else in this
newsgroup for that matter? English magazines (with the exception of
Edge) are just as bad as US magazines.
Abaddon
Dream Hunter
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>
>> >Vic, you do present yourself as having an enormous ego. This just
>> >accentuates this particular opinion that people have of you. How can you
>> >improve a game just from the writing?
>
><yawn> The reverse should be true as well, and is.
>
No argument on that point. So how did the Japanese mags rate this game compared
to the US mags?
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Charles Doane
You've already done that. Magic Knights Rayearth is obviously the last Saturn
title I'll ever be able to buy from WD, and I really don't know where I'll be
able to get it from. I want the game, but it's gonna be scarce pickings. I was
lucky to get Steep Slope Sliders, and all the retailers have bailed out except for
TRU. Where am I gonna buy MKR at, Vic? All of the companies have disappeared,
Saturn is left for dead. It's a damned shame too, I just picked up Xmen vs.
Streetfighter. No system existing could do that game justice, the Saturn has
a lot of potential left in it. After MKR, WD is gone, making PlayStation games.
Good luck on Elemental Gearbolt, and I really hope Square lets you have Einhander.
You left at the last E3, you just haven't finished saying goodbye yet.
All imho.
--
eppur si muove... 'and yet it does move'... Galileo,
after recanting his assertion of the Earth's motion.
Devilot
Victor Ireland wrote:
>
> > >Vic, you do present yourself as having an enormous ego. This just
> > >accentuates this particular opinion that people have of you. How can you
> > >improve a game just from the writing?
>
> Well, you CAN ruin a game by crappy writing. FF 7 English, anyone?
> <yawn> The reverse should be true as well, and is.
Well, no offense, but I'd rather play FFVII the way it is (which, YES,
is a bad translation) than have it filled with breast jokes regarding
poor Tifa...:(
And don't say you wouldn't do it...I know WD's brand of humor...;)
That sort of thing is apropriate for Lunar, which is filled with a
feeling of high adventure and optimism, but when it's put into something
which is supposed to be as depressing (at least in the beginning) as
FFVII, it just doesn't go well.
>
> > >Albert
> > >Odyssey was toss, no matter how good the writing was (and it was perhaps the
> > >best of your translations). I rated it 67% in one review for a magazine,
> > >6/10 in another.
>
> Wheehoooo. Who's talking about ego? We are oft reminded of your
> sterling freelance credentials in a country that our games are not
> directed at. The POINT is, US mags rated it well (generally in the 7-
> 8.5 range). I couldn't care less what UK mags rated it. We didn't write
> the translation for Brits, or the French, or Germans, or Martians,
> or...well, anyone but Americans and Canadians.
>
Geez, you're right there. The translation SAVED AO from being mediocre.
That game was funny as hell...it was average or below average in every
other area, save for the translation.
>
> Bull. What you're leaving out is the FACT that Japan also has a LOT more
> CRAP games for consoles AND PC's. The fact that importers filter out 50-
> 60% of it so te international audience never sees it may make it SEEM the
> way you say, but it's just not true IN GENERAL. I will admit that Japan
> excels in certain genres, but NOT ALL or even most.
Well, it may have a lot of crap games, but it has a lot more games,
PERIOD. More games means more choices available...And some of the games
which you might think are crap, I might find intriguing and
interesting.
>
> Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic
--
Is it any wonder the world withers and dies?
Joe Ottoson
Devilot wrote:
>
> Victor Ireland wrote:
> >
> > > >Vic, you do present yourself as having an enormous ego. This just
> > > >accentuates this particular opinion that people have of you. How can you
> > > >improve a game just from the writing?
> >
> > Well, you CAN ruin a game by crappy writing. FF 7 English, anyone?
> > <yawn> The reverse should be true as well, and is.
>
> Well, no offense, but I'd rather play FFVII the way it is (which, YES,
> is a bad translation) than have it filled with breast jokes regarding
> poor Tifa...:(
Err... There were boob jokes in FF7...
Devilot
Joe Ottoson wrote:
>
> > > Well, you CAN ruin a game by crappy writing. FF 7 English, anyone?
> > > <yawn> The reverse should be true as well, and is.
> >
> > Well, no offense, but I'd rather play FFVII the way it is (which, YES,
> > is a bad translation) than have it filled with breast jokes regarding
> > poor Tifa...:(
>
> Err... There were boob jokes in FF7...
Why must you always contradict me? It's like an obsession with you...
And I don't recall any boob jokes in FF7...
Joe Ottoson
(mainly because I recruited Yuffie while Cloud was Mako poisioned)
Yuffie says something like "Who do you think you are BOOBS?!?" when a
Tifa led party defeats her (you have the option of arguing further with
Yuffie too). Not quite up to WD's style I'll admit, but it's there
nonetheless....
I won't even get into why the slapfight in Junon started ;)
Devilot
Joe Ottoson wrote:
>
> Devilot wrote:
> >
> It's hardly an obession. I just know that there *were* boob jokes in FF7
> (mainly because I recruited Yuffie while Cloud was Mako poisioned)
> Yuffie says something like "Who do you think you are BOOBS?!?" when a
> Tifa led party defeats her (you have the option of arguing further with
> Yuffie too). Not quite up to WD's style I'll admit, but it's there
> nonetheless....
Damn, I guess I've got to try that. But anyway, that's one boob
comment. And it's not really a joke. Just a nasty comment. So there. :P
Yuffie was probably just jealous...she is boob impaired after all.
>
> I won't even get into why the slapfight in Junon started ;)
I think I got Tifa to slap Scarlet fifty times. It was pretty cool.
Joe Ottoson
Devilot wrote:
> > Yuffie says something like "Who do you think you are BOOBS?!?" when a
> > Tifa led party defeats her (you have the option of arguing further with
> > Yuffie too). Not quite up to WD's style I'll admit, but it's there
> > nonetheless....
>
> Damn, I guess I've got to try that. But anyway, that's one boob
> comment. And it's not really a joke. Just a nasty comment. So there. :P
> Yuffie was probably just jealous...she is boob impaired after all.
>
Fair enough. I wasn't expecting it so it made me laugh the first time I
saw it though. (It's a much better snipe that what I remember I'm sure
;)
Ghaleon
Joe Ottoson wrote:
>
> Devilot wrote:
>
> > > Yuffie says something like "Who do you think you are BOOBS?!?"
Heh, they have something like that in Persona, too. The girl in Black
calls Mary a flat chested woman.... then you get the chance to kick her
ass.
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Victor Ireland
In article <34D37B...@primenet.com>, gdo...@primenet.com says...
Just because we're not publishing Saturn games after MKR doean't mean we
don't CARE about the people who've bought our games previously, or those
that still are interested in what we do. I come here to answer questions
of that nature, but lately, I've generally been in defense mode feilding
all the same pissed off posts over and over. That's fine. I've seen it
before with Turbografx, and I understand it.
DBTH - Vic
Some Guy
Victor Ireland wrote:
>
> Just because we're not publishing Saturn games after MKR doean't mean we
> don't CARE about the people who've bought our games previously, or those
> that still are interested in what we do. I come here to answer questions
> of that nature, but lately, I've generally been in defense mode feilding
> all the same pissed off posts over and over. That's fine. I've seen it
> before with Turbografx, and I understand it.
>
> DBTH - Vic
HEY yeah, what's up with the TurboGrafx anyway???? Why don't
you guys write games for it anymore???? I'm PISSED!!! You
guys suck!!! I'll never buy another WD game again!!!!!!
So, when's Lunar coming out?? :-)
Devilot
Ghaleon wrote:
>
> Joe Ottoson wrote:
> >
> > Devilot wrote:
> >
> > > > Yuffie says something like "Who do you think you are BOOBS?!?"
>
> Heh, they have something like that in Persona, too. The girl in Black
> calls Mary a flat chested woman.... then you get the chance to kick her
> ass.
Awww, that's so cute...especially considering the girl in black looks
like she's six years old or something.
> --
> +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
> | Please support the move to bring the Arc the Lad |
> + series to North America. Sign the petition at +
> | http://w3.one.net/~afanassy/petitions/arc |
> \~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+/
> + Ghaleon's Home page- http://w3.one.net/~afanassy +
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> ----------------------------------------------------
--
Ghaleon
Devilot wrote:
>
> Ghaleon wrote:
> >
> > Joe Ottoson wrote:
> > >
> > > Devilot wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Yuffie says something like "Who do you think you are BOOBS?!?"
> >
> > Heh, they have something like that in Persona, too. The girl in Black
> > calls Mary a flat chested woman.... then you get the chance to kick her
> > ass.
>
> Awww, that's so cute...especially considering the girl in black looks
> like she's six years old or something.
Actually, she has no age.
Spoiler space
She's part of Mary.....