Why do so many people hate Bernie Stolar
Michael Mullis
news:3741A368...@tmbg.org...
> Here's to another FAQ! :^)
>
> 1) Working Designs was not given prominent enough space to display their
> fart jokes at 1997 E3. :^)
And you know what? After all that bitching, where was Working Designs this
year? Right back in the small corner where very few people went. He wasn't
even really near the Sony booth.
> Benjamin
--
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ICQ# 4326093
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Haohmaru
>Saturn into the ground since it wasn't his baby. Sums it up for me.
Bernie Stoler did NOT run the saturn into the ground, SOA had done that before
he got there. Stoler simply killed it off, rather than pump lots of money into
it to still have it die off, the PSX had just gotten way to much steam by that
time. Bernie and no one else could have saved the saturn, the only thing that
could have switched the saturns fate was a better handling of events pre and
shortly after it's launch in the us.
Kangaeru Hito
Rusty Shackleford <nst...@inlink.com> wrote in message
news:3741479C...@inlink.com...
>
> When he was at Sony, he had a anti-2D and -RPG stance.
What exactly made everyone start thinking this? 2d games and RPGs were
released while he was at Sony.
> Then he ran the
> Saturn into the ground since it wasn't his baby. Sums it up for me.
>
Make that, "He euthanized the Saturn after Kalinskie had crippled it."
Darien Allen
<gat...@ix.netcom.com> gifted us with these words:
>What exactly made everyone start thinking this? 2d games and RPGs were
>released while he was at Sony.
More 2D's were rejected....less RPGs than could have come....Arc the
Lad? Instead we got Beyond the Beyond...oh joy.
>Make that, "He euthanized the Saturn after Kalinskie had crippled it."
Bingo.
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Dave Lau
all the way on the right corner when i entered the building but had
forgotten about it as soon as i saw that big nintendo display with that full
sized pod racer on there...
which, come to think of it, they were closer to nintendo, if anything...and
where was lunar in the sony booth?.kinda pathetic, no?
Michael Mullis <sting...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7hsgus$rk7$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
terrence huey
> >released while he was at Sony.
>
> More 2D's were rejected....less RPGs than could have come....Arc the
> Lad? Instead we got Beyond the Beyond...oh joy.
Exactly. You wanna know why I hate the man? It's exactly that. When he
was aboard Sony, I didn't want a PSX because I would see games I wanted in
magazines(Arc and Arc the Lad 2 for instance) only to find out they would
never be coming here.
When he came aboard Sega, the same problem occured. All the games I
wanted, he wouldn't let come over. Now, I suppose I should be happy that
PDS(subbed, no less!) and SF3 Sce. 1 came out(though in some ways, I think
it should have been just left import only), but when you consider the fact
that he killed off the saturn for good, it pisses me off. how does he
expect to sell DCs when he has betrayed his fans? So Americans were
expected to sit tight for 1.5 years anticipating
I for one, if I get a DC, will be buying an import DC.
And although I could go either way with the Working Designs thing, one
thing is certain. Bernie is stupid for pissing off a third party. I
mean, that's ridiculous. If you're in charge of a company, you don't
freakin' burn bridges. And now that WD's a part of Sony's machine, all of
their sales go partly to Sony, and not Sega. By screwing them, Bernie
screwed himself and SoA. Let's hope history doesn't repeat itself.
-mp
Kouda Mariko ga Daisuki!
http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~hueyt/mariko/mariko.html
mp Anime Homepage
http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~hueyt
Joe Ottoson
>
> And the holy hosts all joined in as "Kangaeru Hito"
> <gat...@ix.netcom.com> gifted us with these words:
>
> >released while he was at Sony.
>
> More 2D's were rejected....less RPGs than could have come....Arc the
> Lad? Instead we got Beyond the Beyond...oh joy.
>
http://www.rgponline.com
Gaming news, reviews, previews etc.
Adam Hunter
C:SOTN (my fave game ever.) But the sales of Castlevania PSX were pathetic
in the USA. So don't knock Konami or Sega on the bit. If you were looking
to make $$$, what would you do? Even if Castlevania 64 is a big piece of
junk and C:SOTN is an incredible 2d platformer you have to go with the
sales. Just something we have to deal with unfortunately.
Adam Hunter
Benjamin <benj...@tmbg.org> wrote in message
news:3741A368...@tmbg.org...
<snip>
3) As part of his strategy during the phenomenal Playstation launch back
> when he worked at Sony, Stolar insisted against RPGs (too niche to get
> mass market penetration) and 2-D games (too "old looking" to wow America
> with the new technology).
<snip>
Benjamin
Kangaeru Hito
Darien Allen <darie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:374aebf5....@news.mindspring.com...
> And the holy hosts all joined in as "Kangaeru Hito"
> <gat...@ix.netcom.com> gifted us with these words:
>
> >What exactly made everyone start thinking this? 2d games and RPGs were
> >released while he was at Sony.
>
> More 2D's were rejected....less RPGs than could have come....Arc the
> Lad? Instead we got Beyond the Beyond...oh joy.
>
Nonetheless, I find it difficult to accuse him of being flatly Anti-RPG due
to the fact that he blocked one RPG from being released in America (and
approved of another one it seems). A more appropriate title would be
Anti-Arc the Lad.
anorexorcist
specific actions) why so many people hate Bernie Stolar. My knowledge of
him isn't all that great so please fill me in.
thanks
Rusty Shackleford
anorexorcist wrote:
When he was at Sony, he had a anti-2D and -RPG stance. Then he ran the
Benjamin
>
> Just out of curiosity here people, I would like to know specifically (name
> specific actions) why so many people hate Bernie Stolar. My knowledge of
> him isn't all that great so please fill me in.
> thanks
Here's to another FAQ! :^)
1) Working Designs was not given prominent enough space to display their
fart jokes at 1997 E3. :^)
2) He took a dying system, the Saturn, and put it to sleep to prepare
for the upcoming (and what many think will be a successful) release of
the Dreamcast.
3) As part of his strategy during the phenomenal Playstation launch back
when he worked at Sony, Stolar insisted against RPGs (too niche to get
mass market penetration) and 2-D games (too "old looking" to wow America
with the new technology).
Some people, therefore, view him as the anti-christ, particularly those
who work at the first mentioned company. :^)
Benjamin
Azrael1744
>I've always loved a good 2d side scroller, >especially Super Metroid or
>C:SOTN (my fave game ever.) But the sales >of Castlevania PSX were pathetic
>in the USA.
Bull. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night sold over 200000 copies in the US.
>So don't knock Konami or Sega on the bit. >If you were looking to make $$$,
what would >you do? Even if Castlevania 64 is a big piece >of junk and C:SOTN
is an incredible 2d >platformer you have to go with the
>sales. Just something we have to deal with >unfortunately.
>
>Adam Hunter
I don't care if it will sell more or less, and if it is C: A Contra Adventure
bad, it son't sell, but Castlevania: Resurrection looks like shit, pure and
simple.
Flapper Man!
> And you know what? After all that bitching, where was Working Designs this
> year? Right back in the small corner where very few people went. He wasn't
> even really near the Sony booth.
And ya know what else? Aside from Um Jammer Lammy, Silhouette Mirage was
just about the only good Playstation game at the show. I went to that
corner and shook Vic Ireland's hand and talked to him for a bit. I still
like WD. :)
Greg
======================================================================
"Rosie O'Donnell...is as exciting as a dry popcorn fart" -Doug Steckler
======================================================================
"Are you gonna release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees
in their mouths so when they bark they shoot bees at you!?"
-Homer Simpson
======================================================================
Flapper Man!
> I've always loved a good 2d side scroller, especially Super Metroid or
> C:SOTN (my fave game ever.) But the sales of Castlevania PSX were pathetic
> to make $$$, what would you do? Even if Castlevania 64 is a big piece of
> junk and C:SOTN is an incredible 2d platformer you have to go with the
> sales. Just something we have to deal with unfortunately.
Remember in the old days of gaming press, if a game was choppy or had
slightly junky control, it got ripped a new A-hole. No one ever rips on
the countless ugly, artless, lack-of-any-character-or-charm 3D pieces of
crap on the market! It would just be soooooooooo nice if instead of mags
and the public saying "oh, it's just 2D" if they actually realized "hey,
this game has actual ARTWORK and is asthetically pleasing!". All the
countless roam-around-in-3D "platformers" at E3 were terrible. Choppy,
ugly, boring....3D does NOT do anything for character based
action/platform games. Well, rarely...a few have pulled it off, but it's
no reason to kill off the traditional sidescroller genre. Just add lots
of animation and FX to impress people. Silhouette Mirage, in my opinion,
was the best character based action game at the show. Why? It has CHARM!
It has CHARACTER! It's colorful, the art is nice! The gameplay is varied
and amazing! It's long and challenging! It's really sad when old games
like Strider look better than Strider 2, and Bugs Bunny Rabbit Rampage on
SNES looks better than the Playstation Bugs Bunny game. 2D is NOT
dated....it is definitely nicer looking that most polygon based games. I
hope companies get some balls and make a superbly animated sidescroller or
two for Dreamcast...I really want to see the next generation of
traditional platform action games. Don't kill the genre, please!
Greg
======================================================================
"Rosie O'Donnell....is as exciting as a dry popcorn fart" -Doug Steckler
Victor Ireland
>
> Here's to another FAQ! :^)
>
> 1) Working Designs was not given prominent enough space to display their
> fart jokes at 1997 E3. :^)
> 2) He took a dying system, the Saturn, and put it to sleep to prepare
> for the upcoming (and what many think will be a successful) release of
> the Dreamcast.
> 3) As part of his strategy during the phenomenal Playstation launch back
> when he worked at Sony, Stolar insisted against RPGs (too niche to get
> mass market penetration) and 2-D games (too "old looking" to wow America
> with the new technology).
>
> Some people, therefore, view him as the anti-christ, particularly those
> who work at the first mentioned company. :^)
>
Tut tut. Don't put words in our mouths. We view him, not as a sort
of antichrist, but a simple idiot. This is the man that declared the
Star Wars license dead while at Sony! Shyeah, right.
--
Don't Believe the Hype -
Vic
Rusty Shackleford
Kangaeru Hito wrote:
I sure don't, but then I do not have lots of details at my disposal right
now. The trickle of RPG's was pathetic when Bernie was around. Maybe my
memory is being selective, but a big reason why I didn't by a PS was its RPG
situation for that first year or so.
Michael Mullis
news:Pine.GSO.4.10.990518...@catbert.ucdavis.edu...
> When he came aboard Sega, the same problem occured. All the games I
> wanted, he wouldn't let come over. Now, I suppose I should be happy that
> PDS(subbed, no less!) and SF3 Sce. 1 came out(though in some ways, I think
> it should have been just left import only), but when you consider the fact
> that he killed off the saturn for good, it pisses me off. how does he
> expect to sell DCs when he has betrayed his fans? So Americans were
> expected to sit tight for 1.5 years anticipating
>
You guys all know that Bernie is coming out of the gate with an RPG right?
It's not a launch title, but Balder's Gate will be the first online RPG for
Dreamcast. It's possible that we could see a lot more RPG's this time
around.
> And although I could go either way with the Working Designs thing, one
> thing is certain. Bernie is stupid for pissing off a third party. I
> mean, that's ridiculous. If you're in charge of a company, you don't
> freakin' burn bridges. And now that WD's a part of Sony's machine, all of
> their sales go partly to Sony, and not Sega. By screwing them, Bernie
> screwed himself and SoA. Let's hope history doesn't repeat itself.
>
Well, that's really been a debate here. WD had their share in the blame as
well, they just couldn't bring themselves to admit it. And again, at E3
this year they were back in the corner where no one went. So are they going
to be mad at Sony this time? Maybe N64 will get it's first WD RPG. :)
Darien Allen
<j...@rgponline.com> tried to run this line:
>Darien Allen wrote:
>>
>> And the holy hosts all joined in as "Kangaeru Hito"
>> <gat...@ix.netcom.com> gifted us with these words:
>>
>> >What exactly made everyone start thinking this? 2d games and RPGs were
>> >released while he was at Sony.
>>
>> More 2D's were rejected....less RPGs than could have come....Arc the
>> Lad? Instead we got Beyond the Beyond...oh joy.
>>
>But wasn't Arc the Lad about 6 hours long?
Arc the Lad was an example Joe. Not only that...but I'd rather enjoy
six hrs...than suffer through BtB again..continuing to think...it's
gonna get better.....
-----------------------------
DRA-ICQ#2927081
FruitBooty World Order "Now can you DIG it sucka?"
Gotta remove that "takethis" stuff to reply.
Darien Allen
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) tried to run this line:
>Tut tut. Don't put words in our mouths. We view him, not as a sort
>of antichrist, but a simple idiot. This is the man that declared the
>Star Wars license dead while at Sony! Shyeah, right.
What about booth at this yr's E3 Vic? Why was it positioned where it
was?
Castellan
>"Adam Hunter <axh...@psu.edu>" wrote:
>>I've always loved a good 2d side scroller, >especially Super Metroid or
>>C:SOTN (my fave game ever.) But the sales >of Castlevania PSX were pathetic
>>in the USA.
>Bull. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night sold over 200000 copies in the US.
Yet Konami US was trying to tell me that it sold "poorly." Now,
I'd heard that it only sold in the area of 75K - there are quite a few
"Greatest Hits" titles that certainly are NOT hits, per se - but, if
you are correct (and others have said the 75K number I was fed is off),
they really have no excuse making it 3D.
Anyone know how well Castlevania 64 sold? I'll lay odds that it wasn't
much more than 150K, if even that. I know the initial run sold through well,
but a lot of reviews were pretty harsh.
>I don't care if it will sell more or less, and if it is C: A Contra Adventure
>bad, it son't sell, but Castlevania: Resurrection looks like shit, pure and
>simple.
Amen. It is an ugly game with none of the atmosphere or design that
SotN demonstrated so effectively. Like Castlevania 64, this is Castlevania
for the tasteless, an oxymoron if there ever was one.
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
SegaNet: http://www.seganet.com/ for Sega-related info ICQ#: 12822495
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
Castellan
>On Tue, 18 May 1999, Michael Mullis wrote:
>> And you know what? After all that bitching, where was Working Designs this
>> year? Right back in the small corner where very few people went. He wasn't
>> even really near the Sony booth.
>And ya know what else? Aside from Um Jammer Lammy, Silhouette Mirage was
>just about the only good Playstation game at the show. I went to that
>corner and shook Vic Ireland's hand and talked to him for a bit. I still
>like WD. :)
Screw you, hippie! :) Jade Cocoon rocked, as did Star Ocean 2 and
the videos of Eternal Blue and Grandia. I also got a kick out of Suikoden 2,
Spyro 2, and even Ape Escape, to some extent. Oh, and Monster Rancher 2
owns the lot of you - Potchy rocks the house, yo. :)
Kevin Nielsen
In article <374dcb2c...@news.mindspring.com>,
darien...@mindspring.com (Darien Allen) wrote:
>Look, this day Wed, 19 May 1999 00:19:46 -0700,
>vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) tried to run this line:
>
>>Tut tut. Don't put words in our mouths. We view him, not as a sort
>>of antichrist, but a simple idiot. This is the man that declared the
>>Star Wars license dead while at Sony! Shyeah, right.
>
>What about booth at this yr's E3 Vic? Why was it positioned where it
>was?
I would guess because Working Designs has made a name for itself in the
industry as a whiner and cry baby. No one likes a cry baby, right Vic?
Kevin Nielsen
sch...@catsrule.garfield.com
Kangaeru Hito
Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.11ac05edf...@news.mindspring.com...
>
> Tut tut. Don't put words in our mouths. We view him, not as a sort
> of antichrist, but a simple idiot. This is the man that declared the
> Star Wars license dead while at Sony! Shyeah, right.
>
My God! You mean he really said that!? I know you've brought this up
before, but I simply could NOT believe it! Why, he should be
institutionalized for his flagrant disregard for pop-culture! Any idiot
that doesn't recognize the vitality of the Star Wars license needs to be
deported to the People's Republic of China, don't you think!?
There will be no disputing this! Everyone knows that one's ability to
recognize what's 'in' right now is an excellent indicator of intelligence!
Wonderful way to judge his intelligence Vic. I'd expect no less from a
pop-culture expert like yourself.
Darien Allen
<sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> tried to run this line:
>I would guess because Working Designs has made a name for itself in the
>industry as a whiner and cry baby. No one likes a cry baby, right Vic?
Kevin are you describe Vic or......
Azrael1744
>>I don't care if it will sell more or less, and if >>it is C: A Contra
Adventure bad, it son't sell, >>but Castlevania: Resurrection looks like
>>shit, pure and simple.
>
>Amen. It is an ugly game with none of the >atmosphere or design that SotN
>demonstrated so effectively. Like >Castlevania 64, this is Castlevania for the
>tasteless, an oxymoron if there ever was >one.
And I don't think it's that any of us are totally against Castlevania going 3D
either. While it doesn't happen often, some games make the 3D transition well.
I think Sonic Adventure and Ecco the Dolphin for the DC both look great and
seem to capture the essence of their 2D prequels in 3D. While I'd like just a
few good 2D or 2.5D platformers on the DC, and I would prefer Castlevania that
way (especially after Strider 2 turned out to be a major disappointment), I'd
settle for a 3D Castlevania just fine if it reflected the kind of style and
flair of the older titles. It's not like the choice is between a great 2D
Castlevania and a crappy 3D Castlevania that would probably sell more There's
also possibility 3, a great 3D Castlevania. That makes
Castlevania:Resurrection inexcusable no matter how you look at it.
Kevin Nielsen
In article <37490d65...@news.mindspring.com>,
darien...@mindspring.com (Darien Allen) wrote:
>Look, this day Wed, 19 May 1999 16:22:48 GMT, "Kevin Nielsen"
><sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> tried to run this line:
>
>>I would guess because Working Designs has made a name for itself in the
>>industry as a whiner and cry baby. No one likes a cry baby, right Vic?
>
>Kevin are you describe Vic or......
Well, Vic is the only outspoken person in the company, so he sets
whether the company is seen as an incredible game company that cares about
its consumers (like the company attempts to convey), or just a cry baby of a
company that throws a temper-tantrum when things don't go their way (how I
see Working Designs).
Kevin Nielsen
sch...@catsrule.garfield.com
Victor Ireland
Did you SEE the year in question? At least this time we weren't walled in
on three sides (two of which were SEGA), and omitted from the E3 map. Our
floor traffic in 1999 was about 50x that last year with SEGA, literally.
And, lest you mislead, that event was merely the last straw. There were
many, MANY other things that weighed on the decision pre and post-show of
1997.
Victor Ireland
> Look, this day Wed, 19 May 1999 00:19:46 -0700,
>
> >Tut tut. Don't put words in our mouths. We view him, not as a sort
> >of antichrist, but a simple idiot. This is the man that declared the
> >Star Wars license dead while at Sony! Shyeah, right.
>
> was?
>
Because:
A> It was visible, and didn't have a support beam running through it.
We would have been about where THQ was, but that lot had a beam running
through where our booth offices would have gone. We're redesigning the
booth to be more flexible for next year and beyond.
B> It was in the hall with Sony.
C> It was vastly better that the "walled in on 3 sides" space we had
with SEGA in 1997, if that's what you're alluding to.
Flapper Man!
> Screw you, hippie! :) Jade Cocoon rocked, as did Star Ocean 2 and
> the videos of Eternal Blue and Grandia. I also got a kick out of Suikoden 2,
> Spyro 2, and even Ape Escape, to some extent. Oh, and Monster Rancher 2
> owns the lot of you - Potchy rocks the house, yo. :)
OK, I don't play RPGs, so I didn't pay much attention to them...hehe.
But when it comes to action type games, it was mostly ugly 3D garbage.
Spyro looked cute, but again, it's more of that "roam around in 3D space"
that gets boring fast...and I don't like staring at the ass of a character
for most of the game. And Ape Escape was just more of that...gah. I want
some real action games with real artwork, and Silhouette Mirage WAS that
game (even though I already have the Saturn version).
Greg
======================================================================
"Rosie O'Donnell...is as exciting as a dry popcorn fart" -Doug Steckler
MC
Sir you speak the truth .. what more can i do but bask in your
marvellous glow of stupendous sanity .. Damn it, Kevin .. you are one of
those newsgroup posters that turns a chaps head!
Michael Mullis
> Did you SEE the year in question? At least this time we weren't walled in
> on three sides (two of which were SEGA), and omitted from the E3 map. Our
> floor traffic in 1999 was about 50x that last year with SEGA, literally.
>
Actually, you were. You were right in the corner. Even away from Sony's
booth. You had Nintendo on one wall, Tecmo on another, and 2 walls.
I saw your booth. I actually found it accidentally. I saw your traffic. I
walked by looking to see if I saw you. 50x the amount of people must have
been 50 at the most.
> And, lest you mislead, that event was merely the last straw. There were
> many, MANY other things that weighed on the decision pre and post-show of
> 1997.
>
Like Sega getting tired of seeing delayed RPG's? Like you're doing now?
Like you did with the Sega CD? Come on Vic. We've been through this over
and over. You have to do better than that.
Michael Mullis
> > What about booth at this yr's E3 Vic? Why was it positioned where it
> > was?
> >
>
> Because:
>
> A> It was visible, and didn't have a support beam running through it.
> We would have been about where THQ was, but that lot had a beam running
> through where our booth offices would have gone. We're redesigning the
> booth to be more flexible for next year and beyond.
>
It was in the corner of the hall, not even close to the doors.
> B> It was in the hall with Sony.
But next to Nintendo's booth, not even close to Sony's.
>
> C> It was vastly better that the "walled in on 3 sides" space we had
> with SEGA in 1997, if that's what you're alluding to.
>
Except that you were. That's usually what a corner spot is.
> --
> Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic
Victor Ireland
>
> > Did you SEE the year in question? At least this time we weren't walled in
> > on three sides (two of which were SEGA), and omitted from the E3 map. Our
> > floor traffic in 1999 was about 50x that last year with SEGA, literally.
> >
>
> Actually, you were. You were right in the corner. Even away from Sony's
> booth. You had Nintendo on one wall, Tecmo on another, and 2 walls.
>
Um, no. We had Nintendo on one side, Nyko/Naki (I never can keep those
straight) on another, and IDG/Gamepro on the other. Tecmo was one
or two booths over. If you want to make a case, get your facts straight.
The only real "wall" was the backside of the Nintendo booth. In the case
of the SEGA year in question, SEGA LITERALLY walled us off against the
bathrooms. It was literally impossible to find us. The fact that the
SEGA reception desk told visitors that they had never heard of Working
Designs didn't help, either.
> I saw your booth. I actually found it accidentally. I saw your traffic. I
> walked by looking to see if I saw you. 50x the amount of people must have
> been 50 at the most.
>
I have no idea when you came, but our overall traffic flow really WAS 50x
that SEGA year, so if you saw 50 people, then the SEGA year you would have
seen 1.
Michael Mullis
> >
> > Actually, you were. You were right in the corner. Even away from
Sony's
> > booth. You had Nintendo on one wall, Tecmo on another, and 2 walls.
> >
>
> Um, no. We had Nintendo on one side, Nyko/Naki (I never can keep those
> straight) on another, and IDG/Gamepro on the other. Tecmo was one
> or two booths over. If you want to make a case, get your facts straight.
> The only real "wall" was the backside of the Nintendo booth.
Oh, excuse me, it was Nyko, not Tecmo. Geee, my mistake. But you didn't
have Gamepro next to you. I passed Gamepro before I passed Nyko. And since
you were a corner booth, it is impossible to have 3 sides taken up by other
booths. If you continued to walk between your booth and Nintendo, it would
lead you behind Nintendo's area. You obviously don't even know where you
were.
>The fact that the
> SEGA reception desk told visitors that they had never heard of Working
> Designs didn't help, either.
I'd love some proof of that. I find that hard to believe.
> I have no idea when you came, but our overall traffic flow really WAS 50x
> that SEGA year, so if you saw 50 people, then the SEGA year you would have
> seen 1.
That's altogether possible. Oh, and it was Saturday. When everyone was
over in the booth owned by that "idiot".
Victor Ireland
> Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.11add409a...@news.mindspring.com...
> > >
> > > Actually, you were. You were right in the corner. Even away from
> Sony's
> > > booth. You had Nintendo on one wall, Tecmo on another, and 2 walls.
> > >
> >
> > Um, no. We had Nintendo on one side, Nyko/Naki (I never can keep those
> > straight) on another, and IDG/Gamepro on the other. Tecmo was one
> > or two booths over. If you want to make a case, get your facts straight.
> > The only real "wall" was the backside of the Nintendo booth.
>
> Oh, excuse me, it was Nyko, not Tecmo. Geee, my mistake. But you didn't
> have Gamepro next to you. I passed Gamepro before I passed Nyko. And since
> you were a corner booth, it is impossible to have 3 sides taken up by other
> booths. If you continued to walk between your booth and Nintendo, it would
> lead you behind Nintendo's area. You obviously don't even know where you
> were.
>
And you, obviously, are talking out of your butt. Here's a link to the
E3 official website:
http://www.e3expo.com/floormap/west/west_topright.html
For your information, IDG IS the publisher of Gamepro. Notice them to
the LEFT of us on the map? Nyko is BELOW us, notice? There's a wall
to the right, and Nintendo had their office wall above us. Hmm, only
two walls.
You can spew ill-informed SEGA-isms all day, but NEVER dispute me
on facts related to gaming. I'll bury you.
> >The fact that the
> > SEGA reception desk told visitors that they had never heard of Working
> > Designs didn't help, either.
>
> I'd love some proof of that. I find that hard to believe.
>
Well, of course, you really had to be there, but if you ever run into the
game buyers for Babbages or Toys R Us, ask them. They were some of countless
attendees who were told that, point blank. We missed our appointment with
Babbage's that year because of it, in fact (as well as quite a few others,
until we figured out what was going on and informed the reception desk).
> > I have no idea when you came, but our overall traffic flow really WAS 50x
> > that SEGA year, so if you saw 50 people, then the SEGA year you would have
> > seen 1.
>
>
> That's altogether possible. Oh, and it was Saturday. When everyone was
> over in the booth owned by that "idiot".
Everyone? Shyeah, right. South hall saw WAY more action than the West hall.
The SEGA booth had a good deal of activity, but it wasn't crowded. Try
Tokyo Game Show for crowded some time.
agi...@my-dejanews.com
"anorexorcist" <anorex...@home.com> wrote:
> Just out of curiosity here people, I would like to know specifically
(name
> specific actions) why so many people hate Bernie Stolar. My
knowledge of
> him isn't all that great so please fill me in.
> thanks
Lets just put it this way... anytime something goes wrong, there is
ALWAYS a scapegoat. In the Colorado, and now Georgia shootings, the
immediate concern was to find a scapegoat. In the great Saturn
massacre, the scapegoat was Stolar. Granted, Stolar made some
mistakes, however...
Saturn had a foot in the grave before it was even released. I
remember reading that in countless gaming magazines, industry execs,
and thinking it myself. Saturn was meant to be a 32-bit Genesis. It
was meant to overpower the SNES. It was not originally meant to excel
in 3d games, as the Playstation and N64 are. When PSX specs were
released, the "stuff" hit the fan at Sega of Japan. So the hardware
was always a disadvantage. When Sega of America released the Saturn in
May 1995-4 months before the official release date, it caused scores of
problems that I won't even go into here. But, Stolar wasn't even
working with SOA at the time, so he can't drink out of that cup.
So basically, people don't like Stolar because they feel he killed
the Saturn. Wrong. If nothing else, he put it out of its misery.
I've owned a Saturn since and never regretted buying it (thanks to the
imports). I would have like to have gotten English translations of the
rest of the Shining Force 3 trilogy, but I can understand why I
didn't. With 100 million green ones dedicated to advertising, and a
brutally strong launch lineup, I think Stolar can get back in good with
Sega fans.
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
agi...@my-dejanews.com
darie...@hotmail.com wrote:
> And the holy hosts all joined in as "Kangaeru Hito"
> <gat...@ix.netcom.com> gifted us with these words:
>
> >What exactly made everyone start thinking this? 2d games and RPGs
were
> >released while he was at Sony.
>
> More 2D's were rejected....less RPGs than could have come....Arc the
> Lad? Instead we got Beyond the Beyond...oh joy.
But, was that Stolar's policy or SCEA's? Even now, PSX owners are
pissed that SCEA isn't letting Atlus bring over a certain RPG-ish game
from Japan (the name of which I can't remember). Why didn't SCEA let
two of the Capcom Collection disks come over? Both of these acts of
bufoonry happened in the past year! It wasn't all Stolar. SCEA as a
whole seems to be pretty anal about which games get released here.
agi...@my-dejanews.com
"Michael Mullis" <sting...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Benjamin <benj...@tmbg.org> wrote in message
> news:3741A368...@tmbg.org...
>
> > Here's to another FAQ! :^)
> >
> > 1) Working Designs was not given prominent enough space to display
their
> > fart jokes at 1997 E3. :^)
>
Designs this
> year? Right back in the small corner where very few people went. He
wasn't
> even really near the Sony booth.
Of course Working Designs gets put in the tiny, obscure booth. I've
been to a show like E3 (back then it was the CES). I, along with most
crowds, go look for the hot, exciting (eye candy) games. With so many
hot games like Soul Calibur there, why would anyone want to go to the
booth of a company who's best game is a slight remake of a game that
appeared, what was it... 6 years ago on the Sega-CD? Not exactly
exciting stuff. Back in '97 it was no different. Working Designs had
Sega Ages and Magic Knight Rayearth. Not exactly show stopping stuff.
Swozniak
<<You can spew ill-informed SEGA-isms all day, but NEVER dispute me
on facts related to gaming. I'll bury you. >>
Well that comes off as just a *little* bit arrogant, don't you think? I don't
know what the deal is regarding where you were in regards to the show, and I
understand that you're a professional working in the game field who is more
knowledgable than the average Joe, but everyone is prone to a mistake once in a
while, don't you think? To say "NEVER dispute me on facts related to gaming"
seems a little silly. "Gaming" on the whole seems a pretty broad category to
know *everything* about.
- S c o t t W o z n i a k
**********************************************************
Check out my Videogame Want / Trade list here:
http://members.aol.com/swozniak/page1.html
**********************************************************
Kangaeru Hito
>
> You can spew ill-informed SEGA-isms all day, but NEVER dispute me
> on facts related to gaming. I'll bury you.
>
Woooo... Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
No, no, we must have peace. I'm going to officially end this thread by
invoking a very important law of Usenet.. (I hope you are all familiar with
this law)
*ahem*
"That sounded like something a Fascist or Nazi might say."
(hopefully the law will stand)
Victor Ireland
> Victor Ireland wrote:
>
> <<You can spew ill-informed SEGA-isms all day, but NEVER dispute me
> on facts related to gaming. I'll bury you. >>
>
>
> know what the deal is regarding where you were in regards to the show, and I
> understand that you're a professional working in the game field who is more
> knowledgable than the average Joe, but everyone is prone to a mistake once in a
> while, don't you think? To say "NEVER dispute me on facts related to gaming"
> seems a little silly. "Gaming" on the whole seems a pretty broad category to
> know *everything* about.
>
Considering that I tried to nicely refute his claim previously, it was time
to put him and his agenda to rest.
Victor Ireland
> since I've been into Jap.. now thats saying something :-)
That's actually saying nothing. Talk is cheap. Give me a call when you've
published more than 20 games.
Kangaeru Hito
> > since I've been into Jap.. now thats saying something :-)
>
> That's actually saying nothing. Talk is cheap. Give me a call when
you've
> published more than 20 games.
>
Oh please. As if publishing the games would be the required proof. How
about we compare pro bono work, my good man?
And I thought this thread was supposed to be over! Grr...
Victor Ireland
> darienallen wrote:
>
> <<We aren't talking about Bernie we are talking about Vic...Vic who
> recently put videogame stuff up for sale on Ebay...Vic who has owned
> quite a few sytems and played them. >>
>
>
> Hmm... If owning a few systems and selling stuff on eBay is your definition of
> hardcore... whatever.
>
The stuff I was selling was hardcore-gamer type stuff. PC-Engine games
that are/were really hard to find and many so obscure that only a
real hardcore fan would know of them. In fact, I'm putting a PC/FX
up soon, one of my extras - another hardcore-only machine.
>
> <<I don't base my comment on Vic running a company, I base it on that he
> runs a company ANY he is a hard-core gamer himself. >>
>
>
> Do you know him personally? How do you know that he's hardcore? I've got
> nothing bad to say about the guy other than that I thought his "never challenge
> me" comment came off as arrogant. Even if he is a hardcore gamer, that doesn't
> mean that he's more knowledgable on videogames than other hardcore-gamers not
> working in the industry. I *still* don't get what eBay has to do with anything.
>
I'm sorry I didn't spell out the comment more specifically. What was implied is that
during my tenure on usenet I haven't gotten into *factual* discussions where
I am unfamiliar with the *facts*. And, since the person who dogged my original
post or two regarding our E3 location with *factually* inaccurate information,
then proceeded to be rude to boot, I set him/her/it straight regarding the
fact that *if* I am in a conversation about games or gaming, don't dispute
me on the *facts*, because I don't get into conversations where I don't know
the score. I'm not an authority on everything game related, but if I post, I DO
generally know what's up.
Victor Ireland
> Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.11ae6e74...@news.mindspring.com...
> > In article <3744BD...@hotmail.com>, mb...@hotmail.com says
> > >
> > > Heh, i can translate games better than you mate .. and its been 5 yrs
> > > since I've been into Jap.. now thats saying something :-)
> >
> > That's actually saying nothing. Talk is cheap. Give me a call when
> you've
> > published more than 20 games.
> >
>
> Oh please. As if publishing the games would be the required proof. How
> about we compare pro bono work, my good man?
>
Since when are we talking about boners? ;) Let's keep it above the belt,
okay?
BTW, thanks for stating the obvious. It's not the only criteria. However,
if you've not done even ONE, it's pretty lame to say you could do it better,
and that's what the poster was trying to get across.
Victor Ireland
> Well, it *does* help that you were a publisher of games for NEC platforms.
> This does make getting your hands on some of these items *much* easier, right?
> :) (I'm a producer and I get sent really cool/rare promo items from
> record labels all the time.) OK, Vic... you're hardcore. :)
>
Actually, though I did receive perhaps 25 or 30 games gratis from my
Japanese contacts, most of my 500+ game PC-Engine game collection
was purchased by me personally in Akihabara or Shinjuku.
MC
>
> > > What about booth at this yr's E3 Vic? Why was it positioned where it
> > > was?
> > >
> >
> > Because:
> >
> > A> It was visible, and didn't have a support beam running through it.
> > We would have been about where THQ was, but that lot had a beam running
> > through where our booth offices would have gone. We're redesigning the
> > booth to be more flexible for next year and beyond.
> >
>
> It was in the corner of the hall, not even close to the doors.
>
> > B> It was in the hall with Sony.
>
> But next to Nintendo's booth, not even close to Sony's.
>
> >
> > C> It was vastly better that the "walled in on 3 sides" space we had
> > with SEGA in 1997, if that's what you're alluding to.
> >
>
> Except that you were. That's usually what a corner spot is.
>
> > Don't Believe the Hype -
> > Vic
>
> Michael Mullis
> ICQ# 4326093
> Dreamcast HQ
> The original site for Dreamcast news!
> www.dreamcast-hq.net
Michael, whats the point of arguing anything with him? Aslong as Sega
can churn out its faithfull classics (and obviously something new with a
touch of quality) and i mean, Shining Force series, perhaps another
Phantasy Star game (this game btw would sell out any WD RPG on the DC by
a long way ..). Its also obvious that developers for the DC are making
rpg's .. NEC for example is making some right now, but whether SOA
decides to bring these over to the US (and they'd be stupid not to, heh)
is really the question .. methinks the DC will have some v. high quality
rpg's ..
I for one did enjoy WD rpg's, but i had no problem with waiting for any
US (in my case, Aussie release) because i could read jap, so not only
did i have fun with WD games but also other more obscure rpg's ..my god
i loved Fhey Area.. Go Wolfteam :)
MC
Darien Allen
(Swozniak) gifted us with these words:
>Well that comes off as just a *little* bit arrogant, don't you think? I don't
>know what the deal is regarding where you were in regards to the show, and I
>understand that you're a professional working in the game field who is more
>knowledgable than the average Joe, but everyone is prone to a mistake once in a
>while, don't you think? To say "NEVER dispute me on facts related to gaming"
>seems a little silly. "Gaming" on the whole seems a pretty broad category to
>know *everything* about.
Yeah but give me a break...I think there is gonna be a bit of a
lopsided battle here when it comes to video game knowledge.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Join the Proper English World Order....cause writen good is goode!
[DarienAllen AT Hotmail.com ]
ICQ-2927081
Remove SpamStuff to Reply
Darien Allen
with these words:
> But, was that Stolar's policy or SCEA's? Even now, PSX owners are
>pissed that SCEA isn't letting Atlus bring over a certain RPG-ish game
>from Japan (the name of which I can't remember). Why didn't SCEA let
>two of the Capcom Collection disks come over? Both of these acts of
>bufoonry happened in the past year! It wasn't all Stolar. SCEA as a
>whole seems to be pretty anal about which games get released here.
Stolar made the comment and held the belief that RPGs were unncessary
in the US. That is a bit different the denying some RPGs while
allowing others.
Getting into the Capcom Collection disc is another discussion
altogther.
Swozniak
<<Yeah but give me a break...I think there is gonna be a bit of a
lopsided battle here when it comes to video game knowledge. >>
Could you elaborate on that a little? Is it a given that the head of a
software company knows more about videogame facts than a hard-core gamer that
doesn't work in the industry? I wouldn't be so quick to come to that
assumption, especially when it comes to some of the more seasoned (say, over
30) gamers. Take Bernie for example. I'd bet my left testicle that I know
more about videogames than *he* does! lol...
MC
>
> In article <19990520171757...@ng42.aol.com>, swoz...@aol.comeGETsome says...
> > Victor Ireland wrote:
> >
> > <<You can spew ill-informed SEGA-isms all day, but NEVER dispute me
> > on facts related to gaming. I'll bury you. >>
> >
> >
> > know what the deal is regarding where you were in regards to the show, and I
> > understand that you're a professional working in the game field who is more
> > knowledgable than the average Joe, but everyone is prone to a mistake once in a
> > while, don't you think? To say "NEVER dispute me on facts related to gaming"
> > seems a little silly. "Gaming" on the whole seems a pretty broad category to
> > know *everything* about.
> >
>
> to put him and his agenda to rest.
>
> Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic
Heh, i can translate games better than you mate .. and its been 5 yrs
since I've been into Jap.. now thats saying something :-)
Roll on Phantasy Star 5 ..
MC
>
> darienallen wrote:
>
> <<Yeah but give me a break...I think there is gonna be a bit of a
> lopsided battle here when it comes to video game knowledge. >>
>
> Could you elaborate on that a little? Is it a given that the head of a
> software company knows more about videogame facts than a hard-core gamer that
> doesn't work in the industry? I wouldn't be so quick to come to that
> assumption, especially when it comes to some of the more seasoned (say, over
> 30) gamers. Take Bernie for example. I'd bet my left testicle that I know
> more about videogames than *he* does! lol...
>
Would you like your bollock chopped off using anasthetic or not?
I'm game either way, m'dear Zniakal Zniak..
Azrael1744
>Heh, i can translate games better than you >mate .. and its been 5 yrs
>since I've been into Jap.. now thats saying >something :-)
>
>Roll on Phantasy Star 5 ..
Your game company sucks, it never releases anything. .
Darien Allen
gifted us with these words:
>"MC <mb...@hotmail.com>" wrote:
LOL!
Darien Allen
(Swozniak) gifted us with these words:
>Could you elaborate on that a little? Is it a given that the head of a
>software company knows more about videogame facts than a hard-core gamer that
>doesn't work in the industry? I wouldn't be so quick to come to that
>assumption, especially when it comes to some of the more seasoned (say, over
>30) gamers. Take Bernie for example. I'd bet my left testicle that I know
>more about videogames than *he* does! lol...
We aren't talking about Bernie we are talking about Vic...Vic who
recently put videogame stuff up for sale on Ebay...Vic who has owned
quite a few sytems and played them.
I don't base my comment on Vic running a company, I base it on that he
runs a company ANY he is a hard-core gamer himself.
Swozniak
<<We aren't talking about Bernie we are talking about Vic...Vic who
recently put videogame stuff up for sale on Ebay...Vic who has owned
quite a few sytems and played them. >>
Hmm... If owning a few systems and selling stuff on eBay is your definition of
hardcore... whatever.
<<I don't base my comment on Vic running a company, I base it on that he
runs a company ANY he is a hard-core gamer himself. >>
Do you know him personally? How do you know that he's hardcore? I've got
nothing bad to say about the guy other than that I thought his "never challenge
me" comment came off as arrogant. Even if he is a hardcore gamer, that doesn't
mean that he's more knowledgable on videogames than other hardcore-gamers not
working in the industry. I *still* don't get what eBay has to do with anything.
Swozniak
<< snipped >>
<<And, since the person who dogged my original
post or two regarding our E3 location with *factually* inaccurate information,
then proceeded to be rude to boot, I set him/her/it straight regarding the
fact that *if* I am in a conversation about games or gaming, don't dispute
me on the *facts*, because I don't get into conversations where I don't know
the score. I'm not an authority on everything game related, but if I post, I
DO
generally know what's up. >>
Point taken. That explanation says it all. It just seemed as if certain
people here expect you to be a veritable encyclopedia of videogame related
information. :) Take it easy.
Swozniak
<<The stuff I was selling was hardcore-gamer type stuff. PC-Engine games
that are/were really hard to find and many so obscure that only a
real hardcore fan would know of them. In fact, I'm putting a PC/FX
up soon, one of my extras - another hardcore-only machine. >>
Well, it *does* help that you were a publisher of games for NEC platforms.
This does make getting your hands on some of these items *much* easier, right?
:) (I'm a producer and I get sent really cool/rare promo items from
record labels all the time.) OK, Vic... you're hardcore. :)
Flapper Man!
I just wanted to say...I met Vic at E3, and I thought he was a genuinely
cool dude. C'mon guys, he's a real gamer running a company. So he hate's
Bernie and holds his grudge more dear than a few bucks he could make on
Dreamcast games....no biggie. Rock on Vic! hehe.
Greg
======================================================================
"Rosie O'Donnell...is as exciting as a dry popcorn fart" -Doug Steckler
======================================================================
"Are you gonna release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees
in their mouths so when they bark they shoot bees at you!?"
-Homer Simpson
======================================================================
Kevin Nielsen
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.99052...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
Flapper Man! <col...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>
>I just wanted to say...I met Vic at E3, and I thought he was a genuinely
>cool dude. C'mon guys, he's a real gamer running a company. So he hate's
>Bernie and holds his grudge more dear than a few bucks he could make on
>Dreamcast games....no biggie. Rock on Vic! hehe.
No, he holds his grudge more dear than satisfying gamers like you and I with
good games. He's childish, rude, and has proved himself to be not about the
gamer but more about catering to the kids with his Stolar bashing. You
don't see Bernie Stolar coming on usenet and letting everyone know how much
he hates Vic Ireland or how bad the company is going to fail. I'd rather
Vic just stop posting here if he has nothing interesting to contribute to
the conversation. His tail end of thread posts pointing out how Dreamcast
is going to fail and how Bernie Stolar is an utter fool gets rather tiresome
after a while. Most companies put the bottom line at the top of their
agenda; they are companies, nothing more, nothing less. A precious few
companies put the gamer first and earn my undying devotion. Then there's
Working Designs, who puts a personal grudge ahead of the gamer yet shouts at
the top of their lungs that the gamer is first. To this I say, I don't
appreciate being lied to.
Kevin Nielsen
sch...@catsrule.garfield.com
Robert Chang
<gat...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Victor Ireland <vire...@workingdesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.11ae6e74...@news.mindspring.com...
> > In article <3744BD...@hotmail.com>, mb...@hotmail.com says
> > >
> > > Heh, i can translate games better than you mate .. and its been 5 yrs
> > > since I've been into Jap.. now thats saying something :-)
> >
> > That's actually saying nothing. Talk is cheap. Give me a call when
> you've
> > published more than 20 games.
> >
>
> Oh please. As if publishing the games would be the required proof. How
> about we compare pro bono work, my good man?
Be serious. Its one thing to say that you don't like WD translations (I
have a few problems with them myself) and a completely different issue to
claim that you could do better. Unless you've actually localized an RPG,
you are just blowing so much hot air.
-bob
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= b...@soda.berkeley.edu = It is now pitch black. You are likely to =
= go...@uclink.berkeley.edu = be eaten by a grue. --Zork =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Victor Ireland
says...
> I'd rather
> Vic just stop posting here if he has nothing interesting to contribute to
> the conversation. His tail end of thread posts pointing out how Dreamcast
> is going to fail and how Bernie Stolar is an utter fool gets rather tiresome
> after a while.
>
I don't recall participating in any thread of this nature here in quite some
time. I DO recall setting the record straight recently when people got
their *facts* wrong at our expense to serve their fantapro-sega agenda.
Michael Mullis
> And you, obviously, are talking out of your butt. Here's a link to the
> E3 official website:
> You can spew ill-informed SEGA-isms all day, but NEVER dispute me
> on facts related to gaming. I'll bury you.
>
There's that rousing maturity level you always seem to exhude. "Talking out
your butt". "I'll bury you" (which is the funniest thing I have ever heard
you say considering I've been a gamer before you knew was a game was, but
that's ok). I once again ask you, how old are you?
Fact of the matter Vic is that you were shoved in the corner where no one
can see you. You can sugar-coat it. You can cry, call names, lie,
whatever. The fact is you were no where in real sight. Which is fine with
me.
>We missed our appointment with
> Babbage's that year because of it, in fact (as well as quite a few others,
> until we figured out what was going on and informed the reception desk).
>
WAIT A MINUTE. You're telling me you relied on another company to set your
appointments up? You couldn't talk with Babbages yourself? Sega had to
direct all the traffic to you? I didn't even have a booth and I was able
to meet with developers!
> > That's altogether possible. Oh, and it was Saturday. When everyone was
> > over in the booth owned by that "idiot".
>
> Everyone? Shyeah, right. South hall saw WAY more action than the West
hall.
> The SEGA booth had a good deal of activity, but it wasn't crowded. Try
> Tokyo Game Show for crowded some time.
>
Oh, see, now you are just bitter. But of course, in the corner, it's hard
to see anything. Yes, the South Hall was crowded. There was a mixture of
console and PC gamers, so yes it would be crowded. But in the West hall, it
was Sega, all weekend. Once again, deny it, lie, do what you must, but
it's a fact.
Michael Mullis
news:_h713.755$xF2....@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> I'd rather
> Vic just stop posting here if he has nothing interesting to contribute to
> the conversation. His tail end of thread posts pointing out how Dreamcast
> is going to fail and how Bernie Stolar is an utter fool gets rather
tiresome
> after a while.
That's it right there. Vic, are you reading?? Since Magic Knight
Rayearth is supposed to be the last Sega title, there's no reason for you to
be here.
> Kevin Nielsen
> sch...@catsrule.garfield.com
Michael Mullis
> I don't recall participating in any thread of this nature here in quite
some
> time.
So that makes it ok, right.
>I DO recall setting the record straight recently when people got
> their *facts* wrong at our expense to serve their fantapro-sega agenda.
>
Which you still haven't done. Oh, but you were quite mature about it.
> --
> Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic
Michael Mullis
news:7i24h1$nam$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Of course Working Designs gets put in the tiny, obscure booth. I've
> been to a show like E3 (back then it was the CES). I, along with most
> crowds, go look for the hot, exciting (eye candy) games. With so many
> hot games like Soul Calibur there, why would anyone want to go to the
> booth of a company who's best game is a slight remake of a game that
> appeared, what was it... 6 years ago on the Sega-CD? Not exactly
> exciting stuff. Back in '97 it was no different. Working Designs had
> Sega Ages and Magic Knight Rayearth. Not exactly show stopping stuff.
>
Would you please let Vic know. I think he believes he was right out there in
the open. He seems to think I'm the only one who sees his booth away from
everyone else, and am "Talking out of my butt" (Isn't that how all company
president's talk nowadays?).
Darien Allen
<sting...@yahoo.com> tried to run this line:
>That's it right there. Vic, are you reading?? Since Magic Knight
>Rayearth is supposed to be the last Sega title, there's no reason for you to
>be here.
Mike aren't you pushing it a bit here? Now we want to limit who can
come and go through this NG? Is ownership of X amount of Sega
products the next requirement?
-----------------------------
DRA-ICQ#2927081
FruitBooty World Order "Now can you DIG it sucka?"
Gotta remove that "takethis" stuff to reply.
Robert Chang
<sting...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Kevin Nielsen <sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> wrote in message
> news:_h713.755$xF2....@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com...
>
> > I'd rather
> > Vic just stop posting here if he has nothing interesting to contribute to
> > the conversation. His tail end of thread posts pointing out how Dreamcast
> > is going to fail and how Bernie Stolar is an utter fool gets rather
> tiresome
> > after a while.
>
> That's it right there. Vic, are you reading?? Since Magic Knight
> Rayearth is supposed to be the last Sega title, there's no reason for you to
> be here.
You're right! Heaven forbid that we have someone here who isn't a Sega
developer! Wait... I don't see your name on the Dreamcast developers
list. Vic has as much right to participate in this group as anyone else.
Moreso, actually, since his company has published Sega games in the past.
Or do you think that once a game is released, all discussion on it ceases
entirely?
Your anti-WD, pro-Sega ravings are worse than ZFP's.
Castellan
>Everyone? Shyeah, right. South hall saw WAY more action than the West hall.
>The SEGA booth had a good deal of activity, but it wasn't crowded. Try
>Tokyo Game Show for crowded some time.
No kidding. Maybe it was the EIDOS girls or something, but the
South Hall was MANY, MANY times more crowded than the West Hall (which
was MANY, MANY times more crowded than Kentia Hall, a.k.a. the Hall of
the Damned, as we referred to it, where even Gravis giving away free
steering wheels and USB gamepads couldn't get folks' attention).
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
"George, you can type this sh*t, but you sure can't *speak* it."
-- H. Ford, on the set of 'Star Wars'
Joshua Kaufman
>
> Kevin Nielsen <sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> wrote in message
> news:_h713.755$xF2....@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com...
>
> > I'd rather
> > Vic just stop posting here if he has nothing interesting to contribute to
> > the conversation. His tail end of thread posts pointing out how Dreamcast
> > is going to fail and how Bernie Stolar is an utter fool gets rather
> tiresome
> > after a while.
>
> That's it right there. Vic, are you reading?? Since Magic Knight
> Rayearth is supposed to be the last Sega title, there's no reason for you to
> be here.
>
Ever think maybe he read ON HIS FREE TIME? Or perhaps, the fact that
they have, what is it, like 8-10 games on SEGA systems that they
released?
-Joshua
--
AOL-IM: TerraEpon ICQ: 5404138
We are not your father's video game company. If someone's being rude
they shall be told so. This is a company by gamers, for gamers, not
some THQ or Akklame. We don't need to appeal to everyone, and ingrates
need not apply.
-Victor Ireland
terrence huey
> > about we compare pro bono work, my good man?
>
> Be serious. Its one thing to say that you don't like WD translations (I
> have a few problems with them myself) and a completely different issue to
> claim that you could do better. Unless you've actually localized an RPG,
> you are just blowing so much hot air.
Er, rob/bob, do you know who Kangaeru Hito(the thinking man, luv it!) is?
He's only doing a word-for-word translation of Grandia, and if you ever
played Grandia, it's a huge task considering how many different dialogs of
speech every NPC has...
So while Kangaeru Hito hasn't "localized/published" an RPG, he is doing a
translation for a big one, which has more dialog than Lunar 1 + 2 put
together.
-mp
Kouda Mariko ga Daisuki!
http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~hueyt/mariko/mariko.html
mp Anime Homepage
http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~hueyt
Castellan
>Look, this day Fri, 21 May 1999 09:21:34 -0400, "Michael Mullis"
><sting...@yahoo.com> tried to run this line:
>>That's it right there. Vic, are you reading?? Since Magic Knight
>>Rayearth is supposed to be the last Sega title, there's no reason for you to
>>be here.
>Mike aren't you pushing it a bit here? Now we want to limit who can
>come and go through this NG? Is ownership of X amount of Sega
>products the next requirement?
Mike's high on something. Looks like Vic tweaked him where it
tingles, and now were going to have to endure his inane attacks, ad
hominem diatribes, and completely subjective interpretations for eons,
until he expunges whatever demons of shame, frustration, and rage are
plaguing him.
You get dissed by a guy like me, and then you forget about it.
You get dissed by a guy like me whose also a game company
president, and you work yourself into a berzerker frenzy. Ah, the
price of being a celebrity.
Say what you will about the anti-Vic contingent, but at least
they CARE about his opinion of them. They may seem to hate him, yet they
still acknowledge that he's a celeb, through their untoward attentions
and consideration of his every opinion, no matter how potentially
offensive it may be to them.
As long as they hang on Vic's every posting and react so
furiously to anything he says instead of dismissing it as garbage
(as I did with his Dreamcast opinion - and I don't think he'll deny it
being opinion), they'll remain his bitches.
Michael Mullis
news:374964e7...@news.mindspring.com...
> Mike aren't you pushing it a bit here? Now we want to limit who can
> come and go through this NG? Is ownership of X amount of Sega
> products the next requirement?
>
No, it isn't. However, the purpose of this newsgroup is to discuss Sega,
Sega games, etc:. 90% of the time it tries to stay in that realm. Victor
has no real purpose here anymore. He has stated he will not work with
Sega. He has repeated said the Dreamcast will fail (despite the great
response they are having), and that Bernie Stolar is an idiot. He
constantly whines about how he was shoved away from humanity. Well, ok,
then. He should go to the Sony board and contribute there. Like many PSX
trollers who just come over here to trash Sega, Vic has no real reason to be
here anymore.
Michael Mullis
news:bob-ya02408000R2105990719300001@news...
> You're right! Heaven forbid that we have someone here who isn't a Sega
> developer! Wait... I don't see your name on the Dreamcast developers
> list. Vic has as much right to participate in this group as anyone else.
> Moreso, actually, since his company has published Sega games in the past.
> Or do you think that once a game is released, all discussion on it ceases
> entirely?
>
> Your anti-WD, pro-Sega ravings are worse than ZFP's.
>
> -bob
Fine, then change the name of the damn newsgroup then. No reason for it to
be rec.games.video.SEGA.
Haohmaru
(Florida) Because vic is such an idiot and me and my freinds inform as many
people as we can about that, We also pasted some newsgroup replys in our local
babbages(We know everyone that works there), People couldnt belive it!
Haohmaru
>published more than 20 games.
Well Why don't you give the real game companies a call when you have MADE more
than 20 games, And not simply 20 Fansubs (As I like to call them)
Darien Allen
tried to run this line:
>>That's actually saying nothing. Talk is cheap. Give me a call when you've
And why don't you give someone a call when your IQ raises above the
number 20?
Victor Ireland
>
> > And you, obviously, are talking out of your butt. Here's a link to the
> > E3 official website:
>
> > You can spew ill-informed SEGA-isms all day, but NEVER dispute me
> > on facts related to gaming. I'll bury you.
> >
>
> There's that rousing maturity level you always seem to exhude. "Talking out
> your butt". "I'll bury you" (which is the funniest thing I have ever heard
> you say considering I've been a gamer before you knew was a game was, but
> that's ok). I once again ask you, how old are you?
>
Well, we ARE talking about VIDEO games here, so unless you know of some
super-secret commercial game that predates Computer Space, you can't
possible have been "gaming" before me. Your butt must be awfully
sore with all the talking you're doing out of it.
> >We missed our appointment with
> > Babbage's that year because of it, in fact (as well as quite a few others,
> > until we figured out what was going on and informed the reception desk).
> >
>
> WAIT A MINUTE. You're telling me you relied on another company to set your
> appointments up? You couldn't talk with Babbages yourself? Sega had to
> direct all the traffic to you? I didn't even have a booth and I was able
> to meet with developers!
Um, no. We had appointments with many, many clients. They couldn't find
the area SEGA put us in (and who could blame them). So, they asked SEGA's
INFORMATION desk. They didn't even know.
>
> > > That's altogether possible. Oh, and it was Saturday. When everyone was
> > > over in the booth owned by that "idiot".
> >
> > Everyone? Shyeah, right. South hall saw WAY more action than the West
> hall.
> > The SEGA booth had a good deal of activity, but it wasn't crowded. Try
> > Tokyo Game Show for crowded some time.
> >
>
> Oh, see, now you are just bitter. But of course, in the corner, it's hard
> to see anything. Yes, the South Hall was crowded. There was a mixture of
> console and PC gamers, so yes it would be crowded. But in the West hall, it
> was Sega, all weekend. Once again, deny it, lie, do what you must, but
> it's a fact.
The only fact in dispute here is that you haven't admitted that you had no
idea what the hell you were talking about with regard to the booths arranged
around us. I tried to correct you nicely the first time, but when you insisted,
I showed you a map and set you straight. Of course, you ignored the *facts*.
Victor Ireland
>
> > Kevin Nielsen <sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> wrote in message
> > news:_h713.755$xF2....@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> >
> > > I'd rather
> > > Vic just stop posting here if he has nothing interesting to contribute to
> > > the conversation. His tail end of thread posts pointing out how Dreamcast
> > > is going to fail and how Bernie Stolar is an utter fool gets rather
> > tiresome
> > > after a while.
> >
> > Rayearth is supposed to be the last Sega title, there's no reason for you to
> > be here.
>
> developer! Wait... I don't see your name on the Dreamcast developers
> list. Vic has as much right to participate in this group as anyone else.
> Moreso, actually, since his company has published Sega games in the past.
> Or do you think that once a game is released, all discussion on it ceases
> entirely?
>
> Your anti-WD, pro-Sega ravings are worse than ZFP's.
>
Actually, when I got into this thread, I was actually here answering a game
help question on Eternal blue.
Darien Allen
<sting...@yahoo.com> tried to run this line:
>No, it isn't. However, the purpose of this newsgroup is to discuss Sega,
>Sega games, etc:. 90% of the time it tries to stay in that realm. Victor
>has no real purpose here anymore. He has stated he will not work with
>Sega. He has repeated said the Dreamcast will fail (despite the great
>response they are having), and that Bernie Stolar is an idiot. He
>constantly whines about how he was shoved away from humanity. Well, ok,
>then. He should go to the Sony board and contribute there. Like many PSX
>trollers who just come over here to trash Sega, Vic has no real reason to be
>here anymore.
Preposterous. Did ppl suddenly stop playing WD titles of the past?
Did this suddenly become
rec.games.video.sega.only.if.you.have.something.good.to.say?
Anyone is welcome here.
If you don't like what they say ignore them.
And he does post in the Sony NGs.
Darien Allen
tried to run this line:
>Working Designs needes to lose vic ireland. Noone buys WD games here anymore
Woah aren't you the little entrepreneur.
Victor Ireland
> Working Designs needes to lose vic ireland. Noone buys WD games here anymore
> (Florida) Because vic is such an idiot and me and my freinds inform as many
> people as we can about that, We also pasted some newsgroup replys in our local
> babbages(We know everyone that works there), People couldnt belive it!
>
Ouch! There go 3 sales. Use the time to brush up on your grammar.
Victor Ireland
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu says...
> Say what you will about the anti-Vic contingent, but at least
> they CARE about his opinion of them. They may seem to hate him, yet they
> still acknowledge that he's a celeb, through their untoward attentions
> and consideration of his every opinion, no matter how potentially
> offensive it may be to them.
>
> As long as they hang on Vic's every posting and react so
> furiously to anything he says instead of dismissing it as garbage
> (as I did with his Dreamcast opinion - and I don't think he'll deny it
> being opinion), they'll remain his bitches.
>
Of course it's an opinion. It's all anyone can have about the US
Dreamcast at this point. You have your opinion, presented rationally
and civilly, and I have mine. No fuss, no muss, ah yes! r.g.v
as it was meant to be...
Victor Ireland
> No, it isn't. However, the purpose of this newsgroup is to discuss Sega,
> Sega games, etc:. 90% of the time it tries to stay in that realm. Victor
> has no real purpose here anymore. He has stated he will not work with
> Sega. He has repeated said the Dreamcast will fail (despite the great
> response they are having), and that Bernie Stolar is an idiot. He
> constantly whines about how he was shoved away from humanity. Well, ok,
> then. He should go to the Sony board and contribute there. Like many PSX
> trollers who just come over here to trash Sega, Vic has no real reason to be
> here anymore.
>
Except maybe...game support? We did do about 10 SEGA games. Oh yeah, you're
not used to that. When was the last time you got support from SEGA on r.g.v.s?
I forgive you.
Lord of deXness
That's not a very professional reply, but I'm too busy laughing to
care all that much.
deX!
Kangaeru Hito
> In article <7i2mek$2...@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>, "Kangaeru Hito"
> <gat...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > about we compare pro bono work, my good man?
>
> Be serious. Its one thing to say that you don't like WD translations (I
> have a few problems with them myself) and a completely different issue to
> claim that you could do better. Unless you've actually localized an RPG,
> you are just blowing so much hot air.
>
Whoa, I didn't think everyone would take that comment so seriously! It was
just a friendly jab, if you will. I have done a bit of 'pro bono'
translation work (with Grandia), but I wasn't seriously trying to insinuate
any superiority over Vic.
Kevin Nielsen
In article <MPG.11af30df2...@news.mindspring.com>,
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>In article <19990521120313...@ng-cf1.aol.com>, haoh...@aol.com says...
>> Working Designs needes to lose vic ireland. Noone buys WD games here anymore
>> (Florida) Because vic is such an idiot and me and my freinds inform as many
>> people as we can about that, We also pasted some newsgroup replys in our local
>> babbages(We know everyone that works there), People couldnt belive it!
>>
>
>Ouch! There go 3 sales. Use the time to brush up on your grammar.
With words like those, 3 sales quickly becomes 30,000 sales.
Kevin Nielsen
sch...@catsrule.garfield.com
Kangaeru Hito
> In article <7i2mek$2...@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>, gat...@ix.netcom.com
says...
> >
> > Oh please. As if publishing the games would be the required proof. How
> > about we compare pro bono work, my good man?
> >
>
> okay?
>
LOL! Ok, Vic.
> BTW, thanks for stating the obvious. It's not the only criteria.
However,
> if you've not done even ONE, it's pretty lame to say you could do it
better,
> and that's what the poster was trying to get across.
>
I'm a little perplexed as to whether you took that last comment seriously or
not, but rest assured that it was made in the name of good fun and jollility
(I'm not THAT arrogant^_^), although I think the absence of a smiley muddled
its meaning somewhat.
Victor Ireland
> Victor Ireland wrote:
> >
> > In article <19990521120313...@ng-cf1.aol.com>, haoh...@aol.com says...
> > > Working Designs needes to lose vic ireland. Noone buys WD games here
> > > anymore (Florida) Because vic is such an idiot and me and my freinds
> > > inform as many people as we can about that, We also pasted some
> > > newsgroup replys in our local babbages(We know everyone that works
> > > there), People couldnt belive it!
> > >
> >
> > Ouch! There go 3 sales. Use the time to brush up on your grammar.
> >
>
> care all that much.
>
> deX!
>
Which is exactly the reaction those that "get" it will have. The
rest will be grievously offended at my severe lack of sensitivity
and professional grace.
Victor Ireland
says...
>
> >In article <19990521120313...@ng-cf1.aol.com>, haoh...@aol.com says...
> >> Working Designs needes to lose vic ireland. Noone buys WD games here anymore
> >> (Florida) Because vic is such an idiot and me and my freinds inform as many
> >> people as we can about that, We also pasted some newsgroup replys in our local
> >> babbages(We know everyone that works there), People couldnt belive it!
> >>
> >
> >Ouch! There go 3 sales. Use the time to brush up on your grammar.
>
>
> Kevin Nielsen
> sch...@catsrule.garfield.com
>
>
30,000 imaginary sales != real sales. Imaginary sales losses hurt
a lot less than real ones. Buy a clue. There's a big world out
there with real people in it. Find it.
Kangaeru Hito
>
> Your anti-WD, pro-Sega ravings are worse than ZFP's.
>
Who is ZFP?
Darien Allen
<sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> tried to run this line:
>>Ouch! There go 3 sales. Use the time to brush up on your grammar.
>
>With words like those, 3 sales quickly becomes 30,000 sales.
Kevin get off your high horse please. If you haven't gotten use to
Vic answering thread like anyone else. Then you never will.
eva:01
see your point. Yeah he has every right to be here , but let's face the
truth. Everytime he posts something up it's about Bernie Stolar, or how
Sega is going to be doomed. That's pretty childish isn't coming from a
professional like that. Don't believe Victor Ireland's hype, or you will
become his gimp.
Robert Chang <b...@csua.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:bob-ya02408000R2105990719300001@news...
> In article <7i3mjj$n6s$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>, "Michael Mullis"
> <sting...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Kevin Nielsen <sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> wrote in message
> > news:_h713.755$xF2....@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> >
> > > I'd rather
> > > Vic just stop posting here if he has nothing interesting to contribute
to
> > > the conversation. His tail end of thread posts pointing out how
Dreamcast
> > > is going to fail and how Bernie Stolar is an utter fool gets rather
> > tiresome
> > > after a while.
> >
> > That's it right there. Vic, are you reading?? Since Magic Knight
> > Rayearth is supposed to be the last Sega title, there's no reason for
you to
> > be here.
>
> You're right! Heaven forbid that we have someone here who isn't a Sega
> developer! Wait... I don't see your name on the Dreamcast developers
> list. Vic has as much right to participate in this group as anyone else.
> Moreso, actually, since his company has published Sega games in the past.
> Or do you think that once a game is released, all discussion on it ceases
> entirely?
>
> Your anti-WD, pro-Sega ravings are worse than ZFP's.
>
Darien Allen
<rob...@gte.net> tried to run this line:
>Yeah Victor Ireland has no business posting anymore. Robert Change I don't
>see your point. Yeah he has every right to be here , but let's face the
>truth. Everytime he posts something up it's about Bernie Stolar, or how
>Sega is going to be doomed. That's pretty childish isn't coming from a
>professional like that. Don't believe Victor Ireland's hype, or you will
>become his gimp.
Ah ok...it's alright for someone in a thread to down WD or Vic...but
he can't respond.
It's ok for someone to make a Lunar comment or question...but Vic
can't respond.
Oh yeah that's the Usnet way....right.
Darien Allen
<sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> tried to run this line:
>Once again talking like the true business professional you are. I'm sure at
>one point you will find that offending consumers is bad for business, and
>more than likely, it'll be too little too late.
With all the pre-sales of Lunar so far....don't hold your breath.
Kevin Nielsen
In article <MPG.11af39cfb...@news.mindspring.com>,
vire...@workingdesigns.com (Victor Ireland) wrote:
>> >Ouch! There go 3 sales. Use the time to brush up on your grammar.
>>
>> With words like those, 3 sales quickly becomes 30,000 sales.
>>
>
>30,000 imaginary sales != real sales. Imaginary sales losses hurt
>a lot less than real ones. Buy a clue. There's a big world out
>there with real people in it. Find it.
Once again talking like the true business professional you are. I'm sure at
one point you will find that offending consumers is bad for business, and
more than likely, it'll be too little too late.
Kevin Nielsen
sch...@catsrule.garfield.com
Kevin Nielsen
In article <37469c73...@news.mindspring.com>,
darien...@mindspring.com (Darien Allen) wrote:
>Look, this day Fri, 21 May 1999 17:13:15 GMT, "Kevin Nielsen"
><sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> tried to run this line:
>
>>>Ouch! There go 3 sales. Use the time to brush up on your grammar.
>>
>>With words like those, 3 sales quickly becomes 30,000 sales.
>
>Kevin get off your high horse please. If you haven't gotten use to
>Vic answering thread like anyone else. Then you never will.
I don't remember owning a horse. I'm saying that if a company pisses off
consumers, they tend not to come back for more. Take a retail store, for
example. Before I arrived there as asst. manager, the sales were only 20%
of the goal (goal = past year's sales + 20%). It took an extremely long
time to get the sales even up to 50% because the former employees had just
made so many people that furious. Take the gaming industry. Many people
invested alot of money in the Saturn, and when production was halted, those
people yelled and screamed and vowed to never buy Sega hardware again. Take
Victor Ireland, in confrontations with Sega, he vowed to never produce for a
Sega system again while Bernie Stolar was there. Words are strong, Darien,
don't forget that. A little insult here, a little insult there, Vic just
shoots himself in the foot with every comment. I for one think things
through before I post mindless trash on this newsgroup, I wish you and Mr.
Ireland would take the same responsibility.
Kevin Nielsen
sch...@catsrule.garfield.com
Gann0n
>
> Robert Chang <b...@csua.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
> news:bob-ya02408000R2105990719300001@news...
>
> > developer! Wait... I don't see your name on the Dreamcast developers
> > list. Vic has as much right to participate in this group as anyone else.
> > Moreso, actually, since his company has published Sega games in the past.
> > Or do you think that once a game is released, all discussion on it ceases
> > entirely?
> >
> > Your anti-WD, pro-Sega ravings are worse than ZFP's.
> >
> > -bob
>
> be rec.games.video.SEGA.
....
its people like you that make me wonder why I read the RGV groups in the
first place..
It IS rec.games.video.sega. NOT
rec.games.We.only.say.good.things.about.sega.fuck.you.if.you.don't.
Along with the 1st/2nd/3rd party games for sega's systemS, The highs of
Sega as a company and the lows are on topic here.
your right up with the "your a {name of company} fanboy becouse you post
on {name of company} newsgroup" and
"you can only buy one system per generation" people..
Vic has as much right to be here as you and I, if not as a developer,
then as a video game fan with opinions.
--
"I humbly add my own prophecy of what the dawn of the new millennium
shall bring forth -- one thousand more years of the same old crap."
======================================================================
|-Gann0n-| -- "When I'm feeling down, I like to whistle. It makes the
neighbor's dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself."
========================================================================
gan...@earthlink.net | AIM: Gann0n316 | IRC: CainMarko | EQ: Screwtape
========================================================================
Darien Allen
<sch...@catsrule.garfield.com> tried to run this line:
>I don't remember owning a horse. I'm saying that if a company pisses off
>consumers, they tend not to come back for more. Take a retail store, for
>example. Before I arrived there as asst. manager, the sales were only 20%
>of the goal (goal = past year's sales + 20%). It took an extremely long
>time to get the sales even up to 50% because the former employees had just
>made so many people that furious. Take the gaming industry. Many people
>invested alot of money in the Saturn, and when production was halted, those
>people yelled and screamed and vowed to never buy Sega hardware again. Take
>Victor Ireland, in confrontations with Sega, he vowed to never produce for a
>Sega system again while Bernie Stolar was there. Words are strong, Darien,
>don't forget that. A little insult here, a little insult there, Vic just
>shoots himself in the foot with every comment. I for one think things
>through before I post mindless trash on this newsgroup, I wish you and Mr.
>Ireland would take the same responsibility.
And still the Dreamcast reservations are running at a very high rate.
I'm sure you think that none of those ppl who screamed that have
reserved DC's....oh of course not. Oh lord...Kevin you've taken the
moral stance. Wrap yourself in those morals Kevin I'm not gonna
debate this stance with you.