VF3 & Rally 2 on Dreamcast & Model 3
my...@hotmail.com
now. Rally 2 looks atrocious, and VF 3, unfortunately, doesn't look anywhere
as good as its arcade namesake. Since DC supposedly can output something
like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games look so bad
when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount of RAM
in DC? Does anyone know how much RAM Rally 2 & VF 3 have in the arcade?
Dreamcast only has 24 MB of RAM (16 for main, and 8 for video), and I'm just
wondering if the model 3 games far surpass it. Any comments, feedback,
anything to shed some light on this topic would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Adam Hunter
go by these crappy scanned or video camera shots. what until you see the game in
action. I am worried about sega rally 2...the frame rate is supposedly not up to
par...we shall see in 6 weeks.
ah
Joe Ottoson
> I'm sure most of you have seen the pics of VF 3 & Rally 2 for Dreamcast by
> now. Rally 2 looks atrocious, and VF 3, unfortunately, doesn't look anywhere
> as good as its arcade namesake. Since DC supposedly can output something
> like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games look so bad
> when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount of RAM
> in DC?
Nope. It's called "beta software" which is a mysterious phenomonon in which
games usually don't look fully up to par until the final code is finished.
It's kinda hard to judge a game at the 50% completion stage (I mean, Sega
had to get VF2 up to 70% before all the players were selectable...)
Blubbs
have new tracks.
VF3 looks bad in pictures but is IDENTICAL in every way to the PC version
but only has a couple of polygons from the fighters missing (VERY VERY
small)
Have you no faith in the DC?
my...@hotmail.com wrote in message <6vo9oe$snc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I'm sure most of you have seen the pics of VF 3 & Rally 2 for Dreamcast by
>now. Rally 2 looks atrocious, and VF 3, unfortunately, doesn't look
anywhere
>as good as its arcade namesake. Since DC supposedly can output something
>like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games look so
bad
>when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount of
RAM
Torajima
<pblu...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
> The reaeson Sega Rally 2 looks so bad is cus they tried to change it and
> have new tracks.
> VF3 looks bad in pictures but is IDENTICAL in every way to the PC version
> but only has a couple of polygons from the fighters missing (VERY VERY
> small)
Well, considering how poweful the Dreamcast is reported to be, it
shouldn't be missing ANY polygons. Then again, it's nowhere near finished.
> Have you no faith in the DC?
I have no faith in Sega of America, but I digress....
Torajima
manfrommars
>like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games look so bad
>when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount of RAM
>in DC?
It's got to do with the fact that Model 3 and Dreamcast are totally
different machines which go about doing things in totally different
ways. So... the Dreamcast teams are having to recreate the games from
scratch, effecively programming brand new games while also trying to
'copy' the look and feel of the originals.
There are bound to be differences, no doubt some will be for the
better.
Gary
UK:Resistance - games and shit. Mostly shit.
http://www.mars01.demon.co.uk/ukresist.htm
manfrommars
>games usually don't look fully up to par until the final code is finished.
...which is a good reason, save for the fact that they're both due on
sale in five weeks time!
David Oldridge
(my...@hotmail.com) writes:
> I'm sure most of you have seen the pics of VF 3 & Rally 2 for Dreamcast by
> now. Rally 2 looks atrocious, and VF 3, unfortunately, doesn't look anywhere
> like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games look so bad
> when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount of RAM
> Dreamcast only has 24 MB of RAM (16 for main, and 8 for video), and I'm just
> wondering if the model 3 games far surpass it. Any comments, feedback,
> anything to shed some light on this topic would be greatly appreciated.
I've heard that Sega Rally 2 isn't even being done by Sega. (Not 100%
sure if this is true though.) With extra cars and tracks, but weak
programming for the graphics, it looks like it might be the Virtua Racer
of this Sega system. The fact that the demo wasn't even playable means it
might not even make it as a launch title too.
The VF3 on the TGS show floor is an unfinished beta, with some
textures and such still missing. (It might've been a week or two older
than what the development team has too.) The VF3 pics on SoJ's webpage
are from an older beta, and look far worse. So the next month could mean
some big changes. We'll just have to wait five weeks to find out.
--
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.
sig
version, and hopefully they are not doing a port using DirectX.
Sig
David Oldridge wrote in message <6vpd8k$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
Castellan
>I'm sure most of you have seen the pics of VF 3 & Rally 2 for Dreamcast by
>now. Rally 2 looks atrocious, and VF 3, unfortunately, doesn't look anywhere
>as good as its arcade namesake. Since DC supposedly can output something
>like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games look so bad
>when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount of RAM
>in DC? Does anyone know how much RAM Rally 2 & VF 3 have in the arcade?
>Dreamcast only has 24 MB of RAM (16 for main, and 8 for video), and I'm just
>wondering if the model 3 games far surpass it. Any comments, feedback,
>anything to shed some light on this topic would be greatly appreciated.
>Thanks.
Um, the final DC dev kit only became available to developers in the
last few months. I sorely doubt we'll see any improvement in VF3, polygon-
-wise, between now and release, though I guarantee you future DC releases,
do the "rushed" nature of the original titles, will blow the first generation
titles away visually.
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
SegaNet: http://www.seganet.com/ for Sega-related info ICQ#: 12822495
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
Raymond McKeithen II
sig wrote in message <6vqmju$g5b$1...@carroll.library.ucla.edu>...
>I hope the team doing SR2 on DC is not the same as the one doing the PC
>version, and hopefully they are not doing a port using DirectX.
>
that's how they got the network mode going...
remove *2* nospam's for email...
Raymond
Darrius Joiner
friends and I were venting about this Saturday afternoon. I've been wavering back
and forth if I should get a DC or wait. Then I see Climax's Landers and Sonic
Adventure and I'm sold. But the real reason I want the DC is for the Sega arcade
titles. I want Lost World, Scud Racer, Daytona 2, Dynamite Cop, Virtua On 2, etc.
and after hearing Yu Suzuki say that the DC is MORE powerful than Model 3, and
developers give the DC nothing but praise I got even more excited. Now I
understand that the titles displayed at the TGS were far from complete and Sega
just got their hands on the final Power VR chipset. You all know I am one of
Sega's staunchest supporters, but anything less than Model 3 quality is totally
unacceptable! This system can push 3X that of Model supposedly with all features
turn on. Sorry but I will not accept an inferior version of my favorite arcade
titles. We still have 5 weeks until the DC lauch, and we've seen Sonic Adventure
in action. I believe Sega will deliver, but until I see the hardware running in my
home, I'm still skeptical. I know the system is still 10-20 times more powerful
than anything currently on the market, but call me spoiled! I want Model 3 quality
and I just hope my favorite game company doesn't put their foot in their mouths
agian...........
UGZ 0taku
I totally agree. EVERYONE and their mom kept saying DC BLOWS AWAY MODEL 3!
Model 3 ports? Psh!! A BREEZE on DC. Well what the hell is goin' on with SR2
and VF3? This is Sega, they are NOT in a good position and NEED perfect model
3 ports NOW or people will be sold on the fact that they aren't perfect for
years. Sure, other, later model 3 ports might be perfect, but first
impressions last. These old model 3 ports should be NO PROBLEM for DC to port
perfectly. And dammit, if it means delaying the console release date, so be
it. I'd rather wait and have perfect ports than be stuck with inferior
software for years. This is gonna be the best VF game we'll get until VF4 and
I want it PERFECT. This shouldn't even be an issue...these games should easily
be arcade perfect. I'm definitely holding off buying an import system until my
doubts are dissolved.
-Game Otaku ^_^
Editor-in-Chief
Ultimate Gaming Zero (www.ugzero.com)
We are currently hiring cross-platform writers, writers for our new DC site,
and html programmers! E-mail me for an application at ugz0...@aol.com (that's
a zero, not an 'o').
Marty Chinn
: In article <6vo9oe$snc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, my...@hotmail.com wrote:
: > I'm sure most of you have seen the pics of VF 3 & Rally 2 for Dreamcast by
: > now. Rally 2 looks atrocious, and VF 3, unfortunately, doesn't look anywhere
: > as good as its arcade namesake. Since DC supposedly can output something
: > like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games look so bad
: > when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount of RAM
: > in DC?
: Nope. It's called "beta software" which is a mysterious phenomonon in which
: games usually don't look fully up to par until the final code is finished.
: It's kinda hard to judge a game at the 50% completion stage (I mean, Sega
: had to get VF2 up to 70% before all the players were selectable...)
But there are some cases where you know its going to cut things back. You
don't model like 7 characters, only to go back and remodel them. There
will definitely be a drop in character polygon models. There were cuts
all over the place. Either they plan to rework everything, or some of
that is going to stay, especially this late in the game. VF3 may play
spot on, but it does fall short of the arcade in terms of graphics.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty Chinn ** Tokyo Game Show - Oct. 9 - 11, 1998 **
Video Source PlayStation, Nintendo 64, Saturn, Dreamcast
973 Foxglove Dr. M-F: 9:30-6:00, Sa: 10:00-3:00 PST, Sun: Closed
Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Ordering, and Preordering info at:
<408> 720-8575 Voice E-Mail: vids...@netcom.com
<408> 720-8576 FAX WWW : http://www.video-source.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Ottoson
Chinn) wrote:
> Joe Ottoson (jaot...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> : In article <6vo9oe$snc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, my...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> : > I'm sure most of you have seen the pics of VF 3 & Rally 2 for Dreamcast by
> : > now. Rally 2 looks atrocious, and VF 3, unfortunately, doesn't look
anywhere
> : > as good as its arcade namesake. Since DC supposedly can output something
> : > like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games
look so bad
> : > when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount
of RAM
> : > in DC?
>
> : Nope. It's called "beta software" which is a mysterious phenomonon in which
> : games usually don't look fully up to par until the final code is finished.
> : It's kinda hard to judge a game at the 50% completion stage (I mean, Sega
> : had to get VF2 up to 70% before all the players were selectable...)
>
> But there are some cases where you know its going to cut things back.
Obviously. But up against certain online press comments, the degradation
should be put in the proper light. Rather than the mentality which seems to
be going in the "Either it's arcade perfect or its crap!" vein...
Raymond McKeithen II
Joe Ottoson wrote in message ...
perfect; they're letting us down...". To my knowledge, they've never said
any such thing. I think they have said that Dreamcast (or at least Naomi) is
more powerful than Model 3, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the
translations will be perfect. The systems no doubt have different
strengths/weaknesses. While computer technology gets cheaper all the time
(and quickly) I still find it a little hard to believe that what cost
$4000-$6000 (estimated) 2 years ago is under $300 now; of course the
different price/marketing models come into that too. The proper comparison
should probably be "Does VF3 look better than any other home game?" and I
think the answer to that is no doubt "yes"...
remove *2* nospam's for email...
Raymond
P.S. to Marty...so are you back now? :)
Raymond McKeithen II
Raymond McKeithen II wrote in message ...
>
>should probably be "Does VF3 look better than any other home game?" and I
>think the answer to that is no doubt "yes"...
That should have read "any other home 3D fighting game", not trying to imply
it's better looking than various other types of games (or Sonic Adventure),
because that's not a valid comparison (and I'm still partial to 2D
hand-drawn artwork too...).
Raymond McKeithen II
Brian Osserman wrote in message <6vriem$6ka$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...
>In article <UebU1.98$D1.3...@newsread.com>,
>Raymond McKeithen II <nospamr...@nospamjas.net> wrote:
>>Exactly. And I keep seeing these comments "But Sega said it would be
>>perfect; they're letting us down...". To my knowledge, they've never said
>>any such thing. I think they have said that Dreamcast (or at least Naomi)
is
>>more powerful than Model 3, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the
>>translations will be perfect. The systems no doubt have different
>>strengths/weaknesses.
>
>I agree that a number of people seem to be going overboard in their
>criticisms, it is true that Sega has been saying that DC ports of Model 3
>games will be "perfect," and it is perfectly legitimate for people to say
>that Sega should not have been making this kind of statements if they
>couldn't back them up in reality. Let me reiterate this: I have had Sega
>reps (and I'm not talking about the flunky variety) personally tell me on
>the record that the Dreamcast can push more polys than the Model3 and will
>be producing perfect Model3 ports. Hence, if VF3 really does have a
>significantly lower poly count on DC, it will be a rather big letdown, and
>a letdown of Sega's own doing.
>
Agreed. I hadn't been aware there was any "official" statements from Sega to
that effect. Of course, some of their Saturn press releases pretty much
claimed the same thing about model 2 games (though in less concrete terms),
like the one someone posted here a few days ago...
Joe Ottoson
> Joe Ottoson (jaot...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> : In article <vidsourcF...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com (Marty
> : Chinn) wrote:
> : > But there are some cases where you know its going to cut things back.
>
> : Obviously. But up against certain online press comments, the degradation
> : should be put in the proper light. Rather than the mentality which seems to
> : be going in the "Either it's arcade perfect or its crap!" vein...
>
> I almost replied with saying, who the heck said that.
Well, in all fairness, it wasn't just GA that had said the games weren't
exactly perfect. People are just so wound up over the DC that they took it
as a sign of pending doom. It wouldn't have mattered what the comments were
most likely. Just the phrase "not quite arcade perfect" is enough to make
some folks threaten to throw themselves off the space needle (or some other
tall building with an equally stupid name)
Either way, it's not a bad thing to step back and try to gain more
perspective on what's been going on...
>Then someone
>pointed me to the fuss some people have been stirring up over something
>that I didn't really even type up. The quote I said was taken way out of
>context. I simply was disappointed that in the ONE aspect that it wasn't
>arcade perfect and that you could see the cutbacks. Thats all.
Hopefully that's what most sane people figured in the first place. ;)
Joe Ottoson
> >
> >I have no faith in Sega of America, but I digress....
> >
> >Torajima
>
>
> SOA is comprised of:
>
> 1) an Answering machine
>
> 2) a Dictionary
>
> 3) a Bottle of Ketchup
Nah, the bottle of Ketchup was fired last month...
Brian Osserman
Raymond McKeithen II <nospamr...@nospamjas.net> wrote:
>Exactly. And I keep seeing these comments "But Sega said it would be
>perfect; they're letting us down...". To my knowledge, they've never said
>any such thing. I think they have said that Dreamcast (or at least Naomi) is
>more powerful than Model 3, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the
>translations will be perfect. The systems no doubt have different
>strengths/weaknesses.
While I haven't seen VF3 myself, so I can't comment on that, and while
I agree that a number of people seem to be going overboard in their
criticisms, it is true that Sega has been saying that DC ports of Model 3
games will be "perfect," and it is perfectly legitimate for people to say
that Sega should not have been making this kind of statements if they
couldn't back them up in reality. Let me reiterate this: I have had Sega
reps (and I'm not talking about the flunky variety) personally tell me on
the record that the Dreamcast can push more polys than the Model3 and will
be producing perfect Model3 ports. Hence, if VF3 really does have a
significantly lower poly count on DC, it will be a rather big letdown, and
a letdown of Sega's own doing.
-Brian
Dllem
>I have no faith in Sega of America, but I digress....
>
>Torajima
SOA is comprised of:
1) an Answering machine
2) a Dictionary
3) a Bottle of Ketchup
Dllem
_ _
+---ooo-O-ooo-----------+
To reply remove the i
from the email address
+-==--==--=-=--==--==-+
Cheap Stuff:
www.shop4.com (Lots of stuff)
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Dllem
>I want it PERFECT. This shouldn't even be an issue...these games should easily
>be arcade perfect. I'm definitely holding off buying an import system until my
>doubts are dissolved.
>-Game Otaku ^_^
Call me a brainless cheerleader if you like, but I'm buying the system
the Mulisecond it comes out, Period. Perfect ports are great, but
Sega games are Sega games. Some of their newer stuff even *close* to
the arcade would be awesome.
Marty Chinn
: In article <vidsourcF...@netcom.com>, vids...@netcom.com (Marty
: Chinn) wrote:
: > Joe Ottoson (jaot...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: > : In article <6vo9oe$snc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, my...@hotmail.com wrote:
: >
: > : > I'm sure most of you have seen the pics of VF 3 & Rally 2 for Dreamcast by
: > : > now. Rally 2 looks atrocious, and VF 3, unfortunately, doesn't look
: anywhere
: > : > as good as its arcade namesake. Since DC supposedly can output something
: > : > like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games
: look so bad
: > : > when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount
: of RAM
: > : > in DC?
: >
: > : Nope. It's called "beta software" which is a mysterious phenomonon in which
: > : games usually don't look fully up to par until the final code is finished.
: > : It's kinda hard to judge a game at the 50% completion stage (I mean, Sega
: > : had to get VF2 up to 70% before all the players were selectable...)
: >
: > But there are some cases where you know its going to cut things back.
: Obviously. But up against certain online press comments, the degradation
: should be put in the proper light. Rather than the mentality which seems to
: be going in the "Either it's arcade perfect or its crap!" vein...
I almost replied with saying, who the heck said that. Then someone
pointed me to the fuss some people have been stirring up over something
that I didn't really even type up. The quote I said was taken way out of
context. I simply was disappointed that in the ONE aspect that it wasn't
arcade perfect and that you could see the cutbacks. Thats all. I can't
believe some people took it as it sucks, or it has to be arcade perfect
or its crap. I simply stated I was disappointed that it wasn't arcade
perfect. Nothing more. Its actually kind of funny how pissed off some
people took such a small comment, especailly out of context.
Terrry
TakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoS
"I really am scared of getting old..."
Takeo Shimizu
"Some people come into our lives
and quickly go. Some stay
for awhile, leave footprints on
our hearts and we are never,
ever the same."
Amy Burton
GUNSTAR24
Well if we judge every game before it was finished then we would find faults.
I don't remember people saying how Cruis N USA had pop-up or a bad frame rate
when it was shown at the E3 show. No they said it was arcade perfect. Well
when the N64 was released we all found out that it was BAD. My point is that
EGM hates Sega. EGM goes out of its way to bash Sega and Videogame.com is an
EGM pro web-site. Also Next-Generation.com said that VF 3 was near arcade
perfect and it is not even finished yet.
GUNSTAR24
Well you forget something. Virtua Fighters 3 arcade board is costumized for
one game VF3. Dreamcast is not costumized for just one game, it has to play
hundreds of games. Arcade games have an advantage that home systems will never
have.
GUNSTAR24
No one said the polygon count was alot lower. I don't know where you got that
from. Sega said Dreamcast can port Model 3 games easily right. But everybody
fails to realize that the demos of VF3 and all the other games were from the
unfinished Dreamcast specs. The final development kit was just finished in
Sept. and shipped to 3rd party companies. The final development ket is the 5th
one. Sega says that it can produce 4,000,000 polygons per second. So that
would be far beyond Model 3 specs. Just give Sega a little time they will have
Dreamcast running like no other system could dream of.
GUNSTAR24
We are not mad because it is not arcade perfected. We are mad because you
would expect an unfinished game to look like its finished counter part.
Marty Chinn
: We are not mad because it is not arcade perfected. We are mad because you
: would expect an unfinished game to look like its finished counter part.
And if you had been paying attention, its been said that there are just
some things that are VERY unlikely to change in the next month. Some
things like the character models. Unless you go back and remodel all the
characters, they're likely going to remain at a lower polygon count.
Going back and remodeling all the character and backgrounds for higher
polygon count is pretty much reworking the whole game. That's not a
tweak, thats a major overhaul and it doesn't happen in a month. It
doesn't happen in two months. It happens over a series of several months
in delay which they don't have unless they choose to delay it which would
be even a bigger mistake.
GUNSTAR24
No one said the background polygons were low. I read all the articles on the
web. The only thing they said was the characters didn't have as many. By the
Sega has 47 day until its release so they can change anything they want to.
Since development system Set 5 was just complete and is pushing 4,000,000 pps
they could use that. Which would handle any problems with the characters.
Marty Chinn
: No one said the background polygons were low. I read all the articles on the
Nobody said the background polys were low. They are lower than the
arcade. There is a big difference in meaning. Lets look at it from your
47 day figure. One week for manufacturing. So thats 40 days left. 3 weeks
for final debugging and testing, that leaves you with 19 days left. 19
days to finish coding up the game. There isn't a lot of time left, and
where do you keep pulling this 4 million polygon figure from? It surely
would take longer than 19 days to recode and remodel all the characters
to put them up to par with the arcade. 19 days leaves you with basically
final touches and minor tweaks.
Agi...@my-dejanews.com
"Blubbs" <pblu...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
> The reaeson Sega Rally 2 looks so bad is cus they tried to change it and
> have new tracks.
> VF3 looks bad in pictures but is IDENTICAL in every way to the PC version
> but only has a couple of polygons from the fighters missing (VERY VERY
> small)
> Have you no faith in the DC?
Not until it proves itself. I've heard that the load times of VF3 are
"excessive"! Your arguments don't make any sense. First of all, why would
adding new tracks to Sega Rally 2 hurt the graphics? Secondly, there is no PC
version of VF3, so you don't make any sense there either...
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Metallica Rules
Metallica Rules
Andrew Ryan Chang
>GUNSTAR24 (guns...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: We are not mad because it is not arcade perfected. We are mad because you
>: would expect an unfinished game to look like its finished counter part.
>
>And if you had been paying attention, its been said that there are just
>some things that are VERY unlikely to change in the next month. Some
>things like the character models. Unless you go back and remodel all the
>characters, they're likely going to remain at a lower polygon count.
>Going back and remodeling all the character and backgrounds for higher
>polygon count is pretty much reworking the whole game. That's not a
Don't they have the original models used for the arcade game?
--
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GUNSTAR24
First off I got that 4,000,000 pps figure from EGM page 48 and Gamer's Republic
page 8 of the Nov. issues. Second it is kind of funny from Friday to Monday
that Sega releases new farther along pics of Virtua Fighters 3 and Sega Rally
2 when you say it would take too long to fix the characters polygon count.
Well lets see Sega most likely made the VF3 TGS version a week ago and in a
weeks time it already has improvements. If you don't believe me goto
Seganet.com. Know what I think, I think that Videogamespot.com is anti-Sega
just like its magazine cousin EGM. I trust Next-Generation.com opinion alot
more then any EGM linked site. Sorry but EGM has proved in the past that they
are anti-Sega. I think you are anti-Sega too because it upsets you that Sega
has a system that will bring them back to number one. Sega Dreamcast rules!!!
GUNSTAR24
The reason it doesn't look great is that it isn't finished. Plan and
simple!!!!
Marty Chinn
: First off I got that 4,000,000 pps figure from EGM page 48 and Gamer's Republic
Or maybe you think i'm anti-sega cuz Sega isn't perfect and I just point
out some of the problems and you can't accept it. Look all I've said is
VF3 is not arcade perfect, thats slightly disappointing given the hype of
the system, and that its likely not going to get fixed in the end. The
conversion is still good, its just not perfect, thats all. People need to
accept that and move on. I just looked at SegaNet and what pics are you
talking about? Maybe you should actually see and play the system before
you claim the system rules. This blind advocacy is just lame.
GUNSTAR24
Maybe you should judge a game when its finish but you won't. Because you see a
flaw and it gives you a little piece of hope that DC will to over in the video
game industry. Just my opinion.
GUNSTAR24
Will not take over the video game industry
Marty Chinn
: Maybe you should judge a game when its finish but you won't. Because you see a
: flaw and it gives you a little piece of hope that DC will to over in the video
: game industry. Just my opinion.
Where did I write it off? I saw a flaw, i pointed it out and moved on.
Look why can't you accept that VF3 at this point in time will likely not
be arcade perfect? Get over it.
William McBee
>GUNSTAR24 (guns...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: First off I got that 4,000,000 pps figure from EGM page 48 and Gamer's Republic
>: page 8 of the Nov. issues. Second it is kind of funny from Friday to Monday
>: that Sega releases new farther along pics of Virtua Fighters 3 and Sega Rally
>: 2 when you say it would take too long to fix the characters polygon count.
>: Well lets see Sega most likely made the VF3 TGS version a week ago and in a
>: weeks time it already has improvements. If you don't believe me goto
>: Seganet.com. Know what I think, I think that Videogamespot.com is anti-Sega
>: just like its magazine cousin EGM. I trust Next-Generation.com opinion alot
>: more then any EGM linked site. Sorry but EGM has proved in the past that they
>: are anti-Sega. I think you are anti-Sega too because it upsets you that Sega
>: has a system that will bring them back to number one. Sega Dreamcast rules!!!
>
>Or maybe you think i'm anti-sega cuz Sega isn't perfect and I just point
>out some of the problems and you can't accept it. Look all I've said is
>VF3 is not arcade perfect, thats slightly disappointing given the hype of
>the system, and that its likely not going to get fixed in the end. The
you, anti-sega, naw... ;-)
just out of curiousity, does anyone really know how long virtua fighter 3
has been in developement? plus, what version of the dreamcast was shown
at the tokyo game show? not all features may have been turned on,
available, or something like that...
>conversion is still good, its just not perfect, thats all. People need to
>accept that and move on. I just looked at SegaNet and what pics are you
>talking about? Maybe you should actually see and play the system before
>you claim the system rules. This blind advocacy is just lame.
your blind prejudice is the same... or should I say equal pre-judging? I
honestly could not care if virtua fighter comes in at 50% graphic, 100%
gameplay is what I want... 50% of the graphics is at least more than what
is at home now...
will mcbee
eigenwillig
GUNSTAR24
is not going to be arcade perfect. You don't know all the facts on the game.
You don't know what percentage of game is complete. You don't know if the
version at the show was the most complete version or was it the most playable.
You don't know how many people are currenttly working on the game to get it
finished. So stop making stupid statements until it finished. Man you are
thick. When the game is final then I know problem with anybody saying it is
not arcade perfect but until then let the programmers do their job.
Jed Wahl
: And if you had been paying attention, its been said that there are just
: some things that are VERY unlikely to change in the next month. Some
: things like the character models. Unless you go back and remodel all the
: characters, they're likely going to remain at a lower polygon count.
: Going back and remodeling all the character and backgrounds for higher
: polygon count is pretty much reworking the whole game. That's not a
: tweak, thats a major overhaul and it doesn't happen in a month. It
: doesn't happen in two months. It happens over a series of several months
: in delay which they don't have unless they choose to delay it which would
: be even a bigger mistake.
Dude, the lower polygon models may have been simple optimizations of the arade
models used during testing, and which may have remained in the beta or demonstration
version of the game. If the game's going to be arcade perfect, they don't HAVE
to model new ones! They can just use the one's already used for the arcade, fer
cryin' out loud! They already exist! They just have to swap out the lower-res ones,
but that's assuming that the Dreamcast can handle the original arcade polygon
counts. They do NOT have to do any remodelling though! At MIT we use big-ass
polygonal models for the final versions of our projects, but during testing
we often use models which are 1/10 the count of the final models (and these
test models often ARE the final models but with optimization modifiers dropped on em)
Jed Wahl
wa...@fas.harvard.edu
Brian Osserman
Jed Wahl <wa...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Dude, the lower polygon models may have been simple optimizations of the arade
>models used during testing, and which may have remained in the beta or demonstration
>version of the game. If the game's going to be arcade perfect, they don't HAVE
>to model new ones! They can just use the one's already used for the arcade, fer
>cryin' out loud! They already exist! They just have to swap out the lower-res ones,
>but that's assuming that the Dreamcast can handle the original arcade polygon
>counts. They do NOT have to do any remodelling though! At MIT we use big-ass
>polygonal models for the final versions of our projects, but during testing
>we often use models which are 1/10 the count of the final models (and these
>test models often ARE the final models but with optimization modifiers dropped on em)
Thanks Jed, I was planning on saying exactly the same thing. :-)
Folks, I'm not saying it will in fact have higher poly count at final,
but it's not nearly as implausible as Marty makes it sound. Most of the
development time does not go towards creating a particular set of models
at a particular poly count, and once you have the engine, you can pretty
much put any model you want in there very quickly, if you have the power
to render it. Which is, I suppose, the million dollar question.
-Brian
Eric Yap
> Don't they have the original models used for the arcade game?
Exactly! If a developer is working on a game with no definite idea of how
many polys the final hardware can push, one would think that it would be a
good idea to go with lower poly count models first. After all, the main
criteria in the game is to have the game running at 60fps.
If DC is up to the job to pushing the required amount of polygons, they
can just replace the models from the arcade.
Now, I have another explanation why the character's might have less polys
or lower res textures.
Remember that the arcade version loads from ROM everytime the characters
are switched. From what I've read online, it seems like Dreamcast has to
hold up to 6 characters in memory at a single time (if I read correctly,
that is, game-online states that it only loads between matches).
Poly models and textures do take up memory, and six characters at a time
is a lot. Now what would you rather have? 2 perfect characters with
perfect stages at a time, but with loading after every bout/change of
characters? Or less than perfect models/textures with all 6 characters in
memory at one time, with only loading between full matches?
Besides, a half-assed company like Genki working on the port doesn't
strike up much confidence either.
Now think about this... if Sega is farming out such an immensely important
launch title to a half-bit company like Genki, what does that imply about
the AM teams? They must be working on really awesome original games which
take advantage of all the features of the Dreamcast hardware.. such as the
forthcoming Project Berkeley. I'll rather have near perfect ports of
previous model 3 titles, and have new awesome original Dreamcast/Naomi
titles from the AM teams, rather than to have the Am teams working on
Model 3 -> Dreamcast ports.
To me, games like Sonic Adventure, Blue Stinger and Climax Landers look
better than _ANY_ model 3 game out there. Consider Sonic Adventure for
instance. Huge levels but still super detailed and with awesome looking
textures. Now, think of Harley Davidson on Model 3, huge world.. but the
textures/models make it look like a Model 2 game. (not really, but you get
the idea) IMHO Blue Stinger's graphics (a 1st generation title to boot)
looks way better than Lost World on Model 3.
--
Eric Yap - haw...@geocities.com http://cctr.umkc.edu/~eyap/
2nd Xpression : Bridging 3DRing and ModRing
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3118
Meither Oneir Thessier
http://www.kameyama.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/~ramsingh
Andrew Ryan Chang
>just out of curiousity, does anyone really know how long virtua fighter 3
>has been in developement? plus, what version of the dreamcast was shown
>at the tokyo game show? not all features may have been turned on,
>available, or something like that...
Someone posted about VF3tb for DC in rgva. (whoosh, too many
acronyms.) He said that the playable demo differed from the non-playable
demo that was being shown above the demo stations, and was further along.
Some sites used pics of the older version, I assume. The non-playable
video included Sarah and Lau, and I distinctly recall the review said that
Sarah and Lau were not available in the playable demo.
--
"I yused to coudnt spel injunear, now I are one."
-attribution ?
Terrry
dc sux till the day i die. beside, sega is stupid. if sega knew ram
would be problem, then add more, dork. Abotu saturn. while sega producing
great polygon gamesfor arcades, sega decided to introduce a home system
(saturn ) which can't do jack for 3D. Sega is so stupid,sega must be
blind...
TakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoS
"I really am scared of getting old..."
Takeo Shimizu
"Some people come into our lives
and quickly go. Some stay
for awhile, leave footprints on
our hearts and we are never,
ever the same."
Amy Burton
Eric Yap
Even if VF3TB is less than perfect, it'll still be a great conversion. Far
from "it sucks". As far as RAM is concerned, any programmer can tell you
that too much RAM is just enough.
It's amazing how many people fail to see Dreamcast's possible weaknesses,
and it even amazes me further how even more people (as recent postings
would indicate) fail to see all the other incredible releases such as
Sonic Adventure, Climax Landers, Blue Stinger, Dead or Alive 2 (OK, so
it's Naomi, but basically the same thing) etc. Makes me wonder who are the
blind and stupid....
On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Terrry wrote:
> The first impression is everything, if vf3 sucked on dc, i would consider
> dc sux till the day i die. beside, sega is stupid. if sega knew ram
> would be problem, then add more, dork. Abotu saturn. while sega producing
> great polygon gamesfor arcades, sega decided to introduce a home system
> (saturn ) which can't do jack for 3D. Sega is so stupid,sega must be
> blind...
>
--
Terrry
any 3D games beside sega arcade racers. sonic is dumb anyway. dead or
alive is stupid 3d fighting game to begin with. it's just my preference.
ciao.
TakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoS
"I really am scared of getting old..."
Takeo Shimizu
"Some people come into our lives
and quickly go. Some stay
for awhile, leave footprints on
our hearts and we are never,
ever the same."
Amy Burton
Joe Ottoson
Terrry <shim...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
> dead or alive 2? sega sonic adventure? who cares. i am not interested in
> any 3D games beside sega arcade racers.
Then what exactly is your point? If you don't care about any titles Sega
produces save for a handful, you'd best stick with your Neo lol lol lol lol
lol...
Terrry
spank me!!! oh ya, i think Sega Touring Car is the bests racer in the
history!!!! ISpank me again !!!
TakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoShimizuTakeoS
"I really am scared of getting old..."
Takeo Shimizu
"Some people come into our lives
and quickly go. Some stay
for awhile, leave footprints on
our hearts and we are never,
ever the same."
Amy Burton
DRX
Terrry wrote:
> i just love daytona usa and super gt so much, i want DC version of it.
> spank me!!! oh ya, i think Sega Touring Car is the bests racer in the
> history!!!! ISpank me again !!!
>
> If you only like a couple 3D sega arcade games why not go and clog up r.g.v.
> arcade instead of here:/ I will agree with ya about Touring Car, that was the
> best racer and I can't wait for new version.
--
"Success = opportunity + preparation" -Taoism/The Way
Danny Ruiz/DRX Homepage http://pw2.netcom.com/~ruiz/
IRC/kazuma/ICQ/20235173/AOL IM/DRX1975
Preview Editor for http://www.seganet.com/
GUNSTAR24
Manufacturing and debugging are done in different departments
Marty Chinn
Actually If I'm not mistaken the one shown on video was of an older
version. Lau and Sarah have been shown in a previous version, which
pictures are also in Famitsu. There are noteable changes between the ones
in Famitsu and the version shown playable at TGS. I would have to see the
video again, but for all we know it could have been the arcade version
showing on the video.
Marty Chinn
: Thanks Jed, I was planning on saying exactly the same thing. :-)
: Folks, I'm not saying it will in fact have higher poly count at final,
: but it's not nearly as implausible as Marty makes it sound. Most of the
: development time does not go towards creating a particular set of models
: at a particular poly count, and once you have the engine, you can pretty
: much put any model you want in there very quickly, if you have the power
: to render it. Which is, I suppose, the million dollar question.
Its not as quick as you imply though. First you need to convert all the
model data so that the Dreamcast can use it, then you need to possibly
tweak, fix, or change collision detection on the models to accomodate the
new updated higher polygon models. Thats just for the characters, then
you have to do similar things, minus collision detection, to the
backgrounds, and on top of this you have to fix any bugs that you
encounter while doing so. Its not as simple as you make it sound. I
didn't say it was impossible, I said it was highly unlikely.
: -Brian
GUNSTAR24
Andrew Ryan Chang
>Andrew Ryan Chang (arc...@sfu.ca) wrote:
>: Someone posted about VF3tb for DC in rgva. (whoosh, too many
>: acronyms.) He said that the playable demo differed from the non-playable
>: demo that was being shown above the demo stations, and was further along.
>: Some sites used pics of the older version, I assume. The non-playable
>: video included Sarah and Lau, and I distinctly recall the review said that
>: Sarah and Lau were not available in the playable demo.
>
>Actually If I'm not mistaken the one shown on video was of an older
>version. Lau and Sarah have been shown in a previous version, which
>pictures are also in Famitsu. There are noteable changes between the ones
>in Famitsu and the version shown playable at TGS. I would have to see the
>video again, but for all we know it could have been the arcade version
>showing on the video.
Yeah, I guess I was imprecise. I should have said that as I
understood the report, the non-playable demo on video was the older
version of the two.
--
"_Babe Flathead:_ At MPU, Babe was a 43-letter man, leading his team to cham-
pionships in every existing sport[...] (Many observers feel that Babe's teams
would have won those championships even if every competing school had NOT had
their QCAA memberships revoked.)" -Encyclopedia Frobozzica.
Andrew Ryan Chang
[re model conversion to higher poly count models.]
>Its not as quick as you imply though. First you need to convert all the
>model data so that the Dreamcast can use it, then you need to possibly
>tweak, fix, or change collision detection on the models to accomodate the
>new updated higher polygon models. Thats just for the characters, then
>you have to do similar things, minus collision detection, to the
>backgrounds, and on top of this you have to fix any bugs that you
>encounter while doing so. Its not as simple as you make it sound. I
>didn't say it was impossible, I said it was highly unlikely.
Collision detection? This is VF3! Doesn't it use a big-ass
lookup table?
As for the ground modifying the model's feet, I'm guessing they
might have some skeleton that takes care of how the feet & legs should be
placed, and then IK takes care of the rest, and then the skeleton adjusts
the real model. Assigning a skeleton to a model isn't very hard. The
VF3 models seem to be partly segmented (see legs & arms), though the
models also seem to be able to animate the vertices independently.
Assigning a skeleton to a segmented model is fairly easy.
rushed for time,
Andrew
Dllem
with::
>sonic is dumb anyway.
Makes sense..
Dllem
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tek...@msn.com
across my opinion on it. First off, at the time of writing your message of
course, the shots you saw were just a showcase of what Sega had done so far
with the conversion in question. They aren't complete. But they have promised
to keep at these games until they are worthy of the original Model III ones,
like someone else pointed out, their fans would be quite pissed off if Sega
released conversion that wasn't up to scratch. And lets not forget, that Sega
have been at pains to stress that the Dreamcast can far surpass the polygon
count of the Model III. I think the latter, Model III Step 2 is said to do
1.5 million and the Dreamcast 3 million. That is quite a difference. So at
best, they should be able to graphically enhance VF3 and in the least match
the arcade version. As for RAM, it is said that the amount of random access
memory allocated to the Dreamcast is reallly huge. They've got more than
enough RAM to handle VF3, and then some. 24 MB is quite big, OK nothing to
scare PC-freaks, but for a console, and for that matter an arcade, immense.
As for Sega Rally 2, it looks as if Sega didn't like their original
conversion, scrapped it and have restarted it. And shots of the new version
of Sega Rally 2 are said to be, photo for photo - equal to the Model III.
In article <6vo9oe$snc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
my...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I'm sure most of you have seen the pics of VF 3 & Rally 2 for Dreamcast by
> now. Rally 2 looks atrocious, and VF 3, unfortunately, doesn't look anywhere
> as good as its arcade namesake. Since DC supposedly can output something
> like 3 million polygons per second, is the reason why these games look so bad
> when you compare them to their arcade namesakes because of the amount of RAM
> in DC? Does anyone know how much RAM Rally 2 & VF 3 have in the arcade?
> Dreamcast only has 24 MB of RAM (16 for main, and 8 for video), and I'm just
> wondering if the model 3 games far surpass it. Any comments, feedback,
> anything to shed some light on this topic would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks.
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
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http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
GUNSTAR24
was not finished until mid Sept. So this means that Sega couldn't use the full
power of Dreamcast because the OS wasn't finished.
ManaByte
Um...WinCE has been complete for years now. If not, palm PC's would not be
operating at the moment...
--
-ManaByte
GUNSTAR24 wrote in message <19981102083222...@ng119.aol.com>...
Richard Chang
called SegaAPI (sp?) that is native to the Dreamcast. A finished version
was included in the final development kit, which was released in late Sept.
Richard.
Adam Hunter
uses the Sega OS. Sega Rally 2 uses Win CE. But, rumor has it that that
version was scrapped and AM1 started over. If this is true, which it
probably isn't, then SR2 will use Sega's OS.
Sega will use their own OS over 90% of the time, I suspect.
ah-bootz