Vic should apologize in Rayearth manual....
John Hokanson Jr.
press yet (recent claims by Vic lead me to believe they haven't), but
here's something I'd like to see WD do:
In the last page of the Rayearth manual Vic should include an apology
for his business practices and deorum on the matter of getting this
game out in the US.
Specifically, he should apologize for making us suffer though a battle
with the Japanese copyright holder concerning the names. He should
come clean and specifically point out that the argument was not to
protect the integrity of the the orignal CLAMP work (like many
including myself once where falsely led to believe), but rather a
battle to include his own manufactured names. An anal battle of
fabricated material none of which do justice to this fabulous CLAMP
work if you ask me.
A lesser point that might be good to touch on is the delaying of this
game which was one of the first in the queue to be released for his
lesser PSX works.
Because when you really think about it, the game simply being releases
is not apologetic enough. He could have done that eons ago.
The people that are going to buy this game are the same people that
*could* have went out and bought the *MUCH* cheaper import version
and played that instead (there is a perfectly good walkthrough for
non-japanese speakers on the net).
I think that speaks volumes of some peoples resolve to support you
Vic.
Ideas or comments people?
Victor Ireland
> Specifically, he should apologize for making us suffer though a battle
>
> with the Japanese copyright holder concerning the names. He should
> come clean and specifically point out that the argument was not to
> protect the integrity of the the orignal CLAMP work (like many
> including myself once where falsely led to believe), but rather a
> battle to include his own manufactured names. An anal battle of
> fabricated material none of which do justice to this fabulous CLAMP
> work if you ask me.
>
Something of this nature simply will NOT happen, because
YOU still don't know everything that happened on the title (there's
only so much I can let you in on without getting into NDA trouble),
AND the bulk of the battle was NOT using the crappy Luce, Anemone,
Marine names, NOT trying to use our own (an idea we threw out about
halfway through the fight). Since I can't present the entire
"battle" and timeline (SoJ must approve the translation notes,
as usual - they made us change the Shining Wisdom ones when the
original one detailed honestly the more than 30 bugs we found in
the released Japanese version we had fixed), it's a disservice to
put in print even less than I've posted here (which is still not
everything).
Of course, there WILL be an apology in the translation notes (when
was the last time you even SAW translation notes of any substance
from anyone else, let alone any sort of apology?) the
length of time this game took is ridiculous, but it won't be
anywhere near as fanboy-gratifying, fantasy-fact based as what you
would like.
--
Don't Believe the Hype -
Vic
jonnyb
Vic Ireland "2"
jb
MoonPrince
>
>
> Vic Ireland "2"
I'm sorry to jump in but it's this "blind obedience" that you've
got that bugs me. I used to consider Vic as ... hmm.. not a "god" but
pretty up there. I mean, who else would care about the common gamer to
check newsgroups and stuff? I still respect him in a lot of ways, but in
others, I have none.
Why? Because I WAS a blind follower. I defended his views on
many occasions, one of which is the use of the original Rayearth names.
Now, it is discovered that WD in fact wanted to use another set of names,
neither the planned dubbed ones or the original ones. Vic says they threw
the idea out after awhile. We will never fully know the reasons, but the
fact is this: WD didn't originally want the original names. Whether this
means anything to you is up to you.
When people came up to Vic saying, "Rayearth is a freakin'
outdated game and blah blah blah", I stood up saying, "Well, it is a 3
year old game but it's a good game." Keep in mind that other posts were
floating around about the $65 MSRP. Now, Vic then jumps into one of my
posts while I defend the game, and says, "You got ripped off. You can get
the import for $6. Knowledge is power indeed." How that was supposed to
help him out while he has his $65 MSRP, I don't know.
Then his Rayearth opening song. Some people started to complain
so I d/l'd it just to see what the fuss was about. After hearing it, I
was 100% in agreement. I didn't like any aspect of it-singer, music,
sound effects. So I not only state what I didn't like about it, I also
asked questions(why couldn't you make it a instrumental, etc, etc). Then
BOOM. Vic went off the deep end called everyone who complained a "raving
otaku-wannabe". I'm sorry but, not everyone who thinks the English song
bites even watches anime. And if he can just sit there and call us names,
I don't see how he is helping his own situation. I have a right to
complain just as I have a right to praise. I never said "WD's Rayearth
sucks! Don't buy it!" I only said "WD's Rayearth opening song sucks!"
which is a negative aspect, but it's not going to drop their sales or
anything.
I felt that was out of line. Why is it that if I praise him, I
get mocked by Vic? Why is it that if I tell him the company's faults, I
get mocked by Vic AND am told that those who complain are "raving
otaku-wannabes" as if our opinions didn't matter?
So while I do agree Victor Ireland probably doesn't deserve all
the crap he's been getting lately, he doesn't deserve all the "loyal
praise" he's getting either. I admire the good things he and WD have
done. But I can't ignore the bad things either.
Oh, btw, to this day, I haven't seen him answer a single question
of mine or comment on any of my posts since the Rayearth-op song thread
died out. If I've been file-killed, or just ignored, well, then it just
shows you that he doesn't care for what the general public has to say.
-mp
__________________________________________________
Sakura: Watashitachi Seigi no tame ni Tatakaimasu
Maria: Tatoe Sore ga Inochi wo Kakeru Tatakai de Attemo
Kanna: Ataitachi wa Ippo mo Hikanai ze!
Iris: Itsu no Hi ga Kono Teino ni
Kouran: Aku ga Nakunaru Hi made
Sumire: Watakushitachi wa Tatakai Tsuzukemasu!
Minna: Sore ga Teikoku Kagekidan na no desu!
-Sakura Taisen 2
__________________________________________________
MoonPrince's Anime Page- Anime, video games, Japanese CD Reviews.
http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~hueyt/
Paul J Chi
Question: How do you know what the legal battle was about? This is the
first I've heard that Vic was fighting to use his own names.
Question: Where is the walkthrough?
Comment: I surely would have bought the import, if I had I known that MKR
even existed three years ago, and if I had owned a Saturn three years ago.
A Saturn only recently became affordable to me. If anyone wants to sell me
their import MKR, I'll pay gladly.
Comment: The $64.99 retail is inflated, but that does not mean you have to
buy it at that price. Chips&Bits is taking pre-orders on it for $52.99 and
EBWorld's price is $54.99.
Comment: People probably support Vic because:
1. They see flaming him as biting the hand that feeds them.
2. They appreciate Vic's past efforts.
3. The believe that late is better than never.
Comment: Shitting on Vic will not make him bring out Magic Knight Rayearth
any faster.
In article <35e88af6...@news.vmicro.com>, yangn...@hotmail.com
(John Hokanson Jr.) wrote:
> I hope it's not too late and the manuals for Rayearth haven't gone to
> press yet (recent claims by Vic lead me to believe they haven't), but
> here's something I'd like to see WD do:
>
> In the last page of the Rayearth manual Vic should include an apology
> for his business practices and deorum on the matter of getting this
> game out in the US.
>
> Specifically, he should apologize for making us suffer though a battle
>
> with the Japanese copyright holder concerning the names. He should
> come clean and specifically point out that the argument was not to
> protect the integrity of the the orignal CLAMP work (like many
> including myself once where falsely led to believe), but rather a
> battle to include his own manufactured names. An anal battle of
> fabricated material none of which do justice to this fabulous CLAMP
> work if you ask me.
>
MoonPrince
> first I've heard that Vic was fighting to use his own names.
It's been a thread both here on the Sega newsgroup and on anime(I
know it's on the SailorMoon NG) ones. The entire thread was about the
legal battle and who wanted who to use which names. Apparently, from
Vic's side, Kodansha wanted WD to use the dubbed English names: Luce,
Anemone(sp?), and ??? which coincided with the dubbed Rayearth anime in
america. The dubbed anime was eventually cancelled. WD apparently wanted
to use their own names instead of the dubbed names. They fought for a
bit, and then decided later on(perhaps because of Mixxine and other
factors) that the original names would be best.
> Question: Where is the walkthrough?
Too lazy to look up but I have links from my MKR game site.
http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~hueyt/mkr.html
> Comment: I surely would have bought the import, if I had I known that MKR
> even existed three years ago, and if I had owned a Saturn three years ago.
> A Saturn only recently became affordable to me. If anyone wants to sell me
> their import MKR, I'll pay gladly.
heh heh. I looked for 6 months... but i finally found one though.
> Comment: People probably support Vic because:
> 1. They see flaming him as biting the hand that feeds them.
> 2. They appreciate Vic's past efforts.
> 3. The believe that late is better than never.
And I appreciate Vic and WD because of #2. But if he does
something inherently wrong(ie call all those who don't agree with him
"raving otaku-wannabe") am I supposed to defend him in EVERY aspect? He
is a man. capable of good things and bad things.
Kangaeru Hito
MoonPrince wrote in message ...
>
> So while I do agree Victor Ireland probably doesn't deserve all
>the crap he's been getting lately, he doesn't deserve all the "loyal
>praise" he's getting either. I admire the good things he and WD have
>done. But I can't ignore the bad things either.
I find it interesting that WD is one of the most loved 3rd parties and one
of the most hated 3rd parties, simultaneously. I don't like them, although
I can't say I quite hate them yet (if they decide to get the rights to
Grandia and still say they won't publish on the DC, I think I'll have to
start an anti-WD website).
MoonPrince
> here some time ago asking for name suggestions for the US version of
> Rayearth. How then, have they every falsely claimed that they were
> fighting for the origonal names? This is revisionist.
Hmm... perhaps you're right. I didn't join the NGs until a few
months ago. And from what I read, the legal battle was only to use the
original names. So since everyone was saying it, I believed it.
> MKR. As for $6 imports, it's irrelevent because of the language barrier. I
> would rather pay $50 or even $65 for an English version than $6 for the
> Japanese one. You might care more about seiyuu than understanding the game
> text, but most of us are different that way.
Heh heh =). Well, even so, $6 is $6. It's worth that much just
to buy it to hear the original "Yuzurenai Negai" opening theme. But I
was just wondering what Vic had to gain by jumping in and and telling me I
got ripped off while I was defending him(on the name thing too, notice he
didn't correct the misconception of the original name battle). Could it
be he was mad that I got the original instead of waiting for his version?
I'm not accusing him of this, just stating a possibility. The answer?
Only Vic knows.
> I haven't heard the opening for either the Working Designs version or the
> origonal, so I'm not going to comment on it's quality.
Well, just gotta say that not everyone who doesn't like the
English one automatically is a anime/Rayearth fan by default. On an anime
newsgroup, "Yuzurenai Negai" seems to be the most popular opening theme by
a landslide on a recent poll, but this is another story...
> But, as has been stated time and again, Working Design's only has rights
> to make something loosely based on the origonal opening. That's not
> just the origonal lyrics and vocals.
and again, I didn't know this until the English version came out and the
Rayearth op thread started. Prior to that thread, I was on this NG for
at least 2 months and if something about Rayearth was being discussed, I'm
pretty sure I would have read it.
> It's also the music itself. Just making an instrumental out of the origonal
> music would be every bit as impossible as using the origonal itself.
*shrug* Yeah, I understand the dilemma now, but when the thread started,
how could I have known? And having heard the original(ie what it's
supposed to be) it's hard not to make comparisons. Thus, I asked
questions like "Why not an instrumental?" "Why the changed music?"
Even with their limitations, I still can't help but cringe everytime I
remember how their English song went...
> Oh yeah, he's taking in all that loyal praise here ;). Coming here and taking
> all this crap must be a real boost to one's ego. Give me a break. The ratio
> between praise or even respect to whining and bashing is quite low here.
True. I also frequent the Sony NG and there, he's receiving
NOTHING BUT PRAISE. It almost makes me nauseated... I guess the Sega
people gotta keep it balanced, right? =) But seeing that WD is
relatively new to the PSX, no one has a complaint. And THOSE guys were
complaining like crazy when their 4 disc Lunar package(2 game, 1 making
of, 1 music) was announced at a $70 MSRP.
I havea question: is the following addressed mainly to me? If so, then
read on, if not, disregard or read... up to you.
> Compare Working Designs' internet presence, or acknowledgement of complaints,
> to any other publisher.
I know. It's why I respect Vic in this respect.
> Working Designs isn't perfect, but name me another publisher out there
> that does as good a job as they do.
This is the problem. SInce I'm talking about ME personally, this
is the way I see it. Victor Ireland has not, ever since the Rayearth op
ordeal, responded to any of my messages or questions. I personally think
he kill-filed me. Maybe he hasn't, maybe he has. Either way, it means
he's ignoring me. And this offends me more than anything. Just because I
have some bad things to say, my opinions suddenly become unimportant? I'm
a gamer too... an american gamer at that. How can I continue to praise
WD, no, Mr. Ireland, on this aspect if I am being purposely ignored?
I don't think I've EVER bashed him. The only time I did was when
I said he was out of line for calling some people "raving otaku-wannabe".
Can you imagine my disappointment? My losing of respect for the man?
I mean, do you think I wanna dislike the guy?
> harp and complain about Working Designs, but remain accepting of other
> publisher's far greater shortcomings. You demand that Vic grovel for your
> forgiveness in Magic Knight Rayearth's manual ;
actually... I didn't post that message... I DO however, think he
should apologize to the "otaku-wannabes" as I think that was unwarranted.
I can never understand why he would "screw" his potential customers by
calling them names. Again, not everyone who has something bad to say is
automatically a rayearth fan, or even an anime fan by default.
> I've seen 10x as much complaints about the MKR opening than I have
> Shining Force III's "voice acting" (which I had to turn off completely after
> hearing Synbios' moving rendition of "Is this the end?"), the worst voice
> acting I've ever heard in a game. Give it a rest.
Actually, I did complain about SF3's voice acting a lot. Vic
says Rayearth isn't nearly as bad. I believe him, but can't say for sure
until I've seen the English Rayearth. But if you're talking about me
personally, it's simple. Once Vic called me a "raving otaku-wannabe", I
went absolutely ballistic. I posted like crazy after that, reiterating
and pointing exactly what I didn't like about the English Rayearth song.
I'm not a troll(well, I hope not...) and I think if you pinpoint your
conflicts with certain things, you shouldn't be regarded as one. if the
SF3 voice acting thread had gone on longer, I would have
definitely complained more.
SO um... yeah... the last half of this post/email only applies if
you were directing the statements at me personally. You may not agree
with why I think the way I do, but I hope you at least understand why.
-mp
MoonPrince
To all readers... why does everyone assume that all anti-english Rayearth
statements are my own?
> Mp, you're reallky sensetive about being called a raving otaku.
Well, how would you like to be insulted by a company president?
It isn't any fun... lemme tell you.
> Stop complaining about the past(who wanted which names when or why)
> because they are using the real names.
I didn't bring it up. I was commenting on the previous poster who
brought the issue up. I am not really ticked at WD at all for this, but I
thought it was interesting how they originally didn't want the original
names.
> The real problem is the opening, ughh bury it.
Nah, I think the real problem is him insulting me as well as
others. I didn't like the opening. Ok. Neither did others. I never
demanded that he change it or anything. I just told this NG what I
thought. And when Vic told us what he thought of us, that's when he
crossed the line. I never insulted him as a person.
> Any way why should vic apolgize?
I never suggested that he should. The original poster did. I did
just recently post that I think it'd be nice if he did apologize to those
he called "raving otaku-wannabes".
> (imay be wrong) i hear that they are going to lose money on this game
> any way. He realeases a game that WD probably will lose money and you
> want an apology, come on!
I personally think he lost more money when he called us names..
but anyway, again see the above. I never suggested that he apologize for
the delays, names, opening song.
> Why do you care you arent even gonna get it are you?
No i will not, but I do care. My friend is buying it. But just
because I myself aren't buying it, I shouldn't care? I do care because
Rayearth is Rayearth. And if it's not faithful to the original, shouldn't
I as a Rayearth fan, or I as a gamer stand up for it regardless? But
again, my main problem lies not with the game, as it has't even come
out... but how Mr. Ireland handled the negative feedback.
-mp(who really wonders why everyone thinks of him as a "bad-guy")
Victor Ireland
ez07...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu says...
MoonPrince said around the beginning of August:
" There's no way to please purists(like me) if you
dub something over. Change the text, that's cool with me. Change the
audio? Instant turn-off. It's the reason I passed on a 100%
comprehensible Rayearth and got a 30% comprehensible one with original
voices.(and after seeing the dubbed op, thank goodness)."
Getting a message like this in the midst of all the other "we demand"
messages instantly lumped you in with the otaku-wannabe purists, since
generally speaking, otaku=purist. Sorry if you were offended. It's
my job to make games, and I've made it my job to stay in touch here
on the internet as well, but when there is a hardcore faction that
will not and cannot believe that someone may actually LIKE something
they (as a self-proclaimed "purist") detest, I have a problem. Initially,
the pro-rayearth opening video mail to us was about 70-30 in favor of.
THEN, the "purists" got wind of it until the ratio changed to about
60-40 against. I said then that I would do what I can, but that was
not enough and others (not you) couldn't give it up. I got a little
(and only a little) testy. If you forget that I am the "president"
(which I usually do), and view me as a fellow netizen that digs games
and has (and is entitled to) strong opinions as well, you'll fare
much better.
Cheers.
Victor Ireland
> > here some time ago asking for name suggestions for the US version of
> > Rayearth. How then, have they every falsely claimed that they were
> > fighting for the origonal names? This is revisionist.
>
> Hmm... perhaps you're right. I didn't join the NGs until a few
> months ago. And from what I read, the legal battle was only to use the
> original names. So since everyone was saying it, I believed it.
>
Dejanews is a wonderful thing...
John Hokanson Jr.
<pau...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>A few questions and comments:
>
>Question: How do you know what the legal battle was about? This is the
>first I've heard that Vic was fighting to use his own names.
>
Answer: He said so in a recent thread. Here is his message:
----------------
If you want a rough timeline, here it goes:
Rayearth license is obtained, we plan to change the names
About 6 months later, we are told that we MUST use the crappy new
names
TMS has used in the ill-fated TV dub, since they're trying to sell it
to
TV. We refuse.
Much tug of war. (18 months or more)
Mixx contacts us to "sync" our versions of the translations. They
will
be doing the manga. They want to change the names, too. I explain
that
we are tired of fighting, and just want to use the original names,
which
Kodansha/TMS is still prohibiting. They agree that this is the best
course of action, and we press for original names on two fronts.
We finally get to use original names.
--------------
As you can see, the original fight was centered upon Vic wanting to
change the names. Only after Kodansha denied them this ability was the
use of the original names offered as a compromise. Which begs the
question what would have happened if Vic lobbied for the original
names right from the word go? It has been largely assumed in the past
that Vic wanted badly to use the original names, and that's why
Rayearth was delayed. That has now been proven false by the man
himself and other posters who were wise to this. Clearly the is a lot
different then what Vic led a majority to believe beforehand.
If you'd like to read more, check out the thread "Rayearth (was Re:
Mixx Boycott?)". Ken Arromdee was the first to turn me on to this bit
of info.
>Question: Where is the walkthrough?
>
Answer:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/sega/saturn/game/magic_knight_rayearth.html
>Comment: I surely would have bought the import, if I had I known that MKR
>even existed three years ago, and if I had owned a Saturn three years ago.
>A Saturn only recently became affordable to me. If anyone wants to sell me
>their import MKR, I'll pay gladly.
>
>Comment: The $64.99 retail is inflated, but that does not mean you have to
>buy it at that price. Chips&Bits is taking pre-orders on it for $52.99 and
>EBWorld's price is $54.99.
>
>Comment: People probably support Vic because:
> 1. They see flaming him as biting the hand that feeds them.
> 2. They appreciate Vic's past efforts.
> 3. The believe that late is better than never.
>
>Comment: Shitting on Vic will not make him bring out Magic Knight Rayearth
>any faster.
>
Not shitting on Vic. I may seem harsh, but please understand, I've
been following these events for a long time. I am offering him a
suggestion on how to heal some wounds with Saturn fans. He shouldn't
burn bridges behind him. Someday things with Sony might fall apart, or
he'll be forced to develop for Sega systems again. There's a lot of
animosity coming from members of this group. Relatively speaking, my
feelings are generally low key.
Azrael1744
>I'm sorry to jump in but it's this "blind obedience" that you've
>got that bugs me. I used to consider Vic as ... hmm.. not a "god" >but pretty
up there. I mean, who else would care about the >common gamer to check
newsgroups and stuff? I still respect >him in a lot of ways, but in others, I
have none.
And what bugs me is the number of SEGA system advocates who all wan't to paint
Victor Ireland as the Anti-Christ and Working Designs as the root of all that
is unholy. There are a few, such as yourself and Joe Ottoson, who have managed
to remain SEGA loyalists while remaining relatively unbiased about Working
Designs. Most, such as Jeff Slipko, John Hokanson Jr., Shannon Taylor, and
Erick Patterson/Shidoshi Naga, have not, and never have anything positive to
say about them. I like Working Designs, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing
to recognize their faults. Their average product delays are longer than the
norm and I think they're completely writing off the Dreamcast much too early (I
strongly disagree with Zach Meston's recent SegaNet interview, for example),
but overall, they're fantastic and the best US publisher in my opinon. There
are a few others here, such as Doug Erickson, that seem to share that view, but
we're definitely in the minority. Those that won't see them as anything but
evil incarnate are blind.
>Why? Because I WAS a blind follower. I defended his views on
>many occasions, one of which is the use of the original Rayearth >names. Now,
it is discovered that WD in fact wanted to use >another set of names, neither
the planned dubbed ones or the >original ones. Vic says they threw the idea
out after awhile. We >will never fully know the reasons, but the fact is this:
WD didn't >originally want the original names. Whether this means anything >to
you is up to you.
And they never lied about that, as some implied. Victor Ireland posted here
some time ago asking for name suggestions for the US version of Rayearth. How
then, have they every falsely claimed that they were fighting for the origonal
names? This is revisionist.
> When people came up to Vic saying, "Rayearth is a freakin'
>outdated game and blah blah blah", I stood up saying, "Well, it is a >3 year
old game but it's a good game." Keep in mind that other >posts were floating
around about the $65 MSRP. Now, Vic then >jumps into one of my posts while I
defend the game, and says, >"You got ripped off. You can get the import for $6.
Knowledge is >power indeed." How that was supposed to help him out while he
>has his $65 MSRP, I don't know.
The $65 MSRP complaints are total bullshit. Electronics Boutique, likely the
only retailer that will carry Magic Knight Rayearth, as we all know, tends to
charge below the MSRP for games. That would mean a sticker price probably
around $55. Funny, that's only $5 more than I paid for Panzer Dragoon Saga.
And SEGA obviously doesn't need to pay licensing fees and royalties, not to
mention that they're packaging is much cheaper. I'm no expert, but I would
guess SEGA made a higher per unit profit on PDS than Working Designs will on
MKR. As for $6 imports, it's irrelevent because of the language barrier. I
would rather pay $50 or even $65 for an English version than $6 for the
Japanese one. You might care more about seiyuu than understanding the game
text, but most of us are different that way.
> Then his Rayearth opening song. Some people started to >complain so I
d/l'd it just to see what the fuss was about. After >hearing it, I was 100% in
agreement. I didn't like any aspect of it->singer, music, sound effects. So I
not only state what I didn't >like about it, I also asked questions(why
couldn't you make it a >instrumental, etc, etc). Then BOOM. Vic went off the
deep end >called everyone who complained a "raving otaku-wannabe". I'm >sorry
but, not everyone who thinks the English song bites even >watches anime. And
if he can just sit there and call us names,
>I don't see how he is helping his own situation. I have a right to
>complain just as I have a right to praise. I never said "WD's >Rayearth
sucks! Don't buy it!" I only said "WD's Rayearth opening >song sucks!" which
is a negative aspect, but it's not going to drop >their sales or anything.
I haven't heard the opening for either the Working Designs version or the
origonal, so I'm not going to comment on it's quality. But, as has been stated
time and again, Working Design's only has rights to make something loosely
based on the origonal opening. That's not just the origonal lyrics and vocals.
It's also the music itself. Just making an instrumental out of the origonal
music would be every bit as impossible as using the origonal itself.
> I felt that was out of line. Why is it that if I praise him, I
>get mocked by Vic? Why is it that if I tell him the company's >faults, I get
mocked by Vic AND am told that those who complain >are "raving otaku-wannabes"
as if our opinions didn't matter?
> So while I do agree Victor Ireland probably doesn't deserve all
>the crap he's been getting lately, he doesn't deserve all the "loyal
>praise" he's getting either. I admire the good things he and WD >have done.
But I can't ignore the bad things either.
Oh yeah, he's taking in all that loyal praise here ;). Coming here and taking
all this crap must be a real boost to one's ego. Give me a break. The ratio
between praise or even respect to whining and bashing is quite low here.
> Oh, btw, to this day, I haven't seen him answer a single >question of
mine or comment on any of my posts since the >Rayearth-op song thread died out.
If I've been file-killed, or just >ignored, well, then it just shows you that
he doesn't care for >what the general public has to say.
>
Compare Working Designs' internet presence, or acknowledgement of complaints,
to any other publisher. Compare his attitude to how downright nasty and mean
spirited Pete Stern at Atlus got when people complained about Persona or Ogre
Battle, or how SOA's ad people behaved on SegaNet's chat logs (if you people
think SOA doesn't have serious problems, I urge you to read it). This is what
irks me the most. Working Designs isn't perfect, but name me another publisher
out there that does as good a job as they do. Atlus (and please don't start on
"But they're a developer!", in the US, they aren't) is getting pretty good, but
even they are a distant second in comparison, with nobody else even close. You
harp and complain about Working Designs, but remain accepting of other
publisher's far greater shortcomings. You demand that Vic grovel for your
forgiveness in Magic Knight Rayearth's manual ; funny, I don't remember
companies like Konami or Eidos begging for your forgiveness, or even listening
to complaints at all, when they cancelled their titles, let alone release them
belatedly. I've seen 10x as much complaints about the MKR opening than I have
Shining Force III's "voice acting" (which I had to turn off completely after
hearing Synbios' moving rendition of "Is this the end?"), the worst voice
acting I've ever heard in a game. Give it a rest.
>
TongHak1
complaining about the past(who wanted which names when or why) because they are
Any way why should vic apolgize? (imay be wrong) i hear that they are going to
lose money on this game any way. He realeases a game that WD probably will
gonna get it are you?
Oh well I'm still waiting for it, if it ever gets out.
Tonghak
Azrael1744
I agree. It may not have been right to be called a "raving otaku" just because
you don't like the MKR opening, but consider how you felt and reacted to it.
What if you put up with that kind of stupid abuse all the time here, like
Victor Ireland does? Maybe you'd have a bad day and make an offhand comment
that was a little rude every now and again too.
>Tonghak
Quinn Seed
that (in the manner first reccomended by the poster) is out of their minds.
That's like asking for an apology from all the people that flamed Vic, it'll
never happen.
~Quinn Seed
Visit the 'Players'
http://members.aol.com/quinnseed/players.html
Junker
>(which I usually do), and view me as a fellow netizen that digs games
>and has (and is entitled to) strong opinions as well, you'll fare
>much better.
One would think that a company president would aspire to display a bit more
decorum than the average "netizen", especially when many of the people he's
slamming (at least in this ng) helped to put WD on the map with their hard
earned cash.
Junker
paint
>Victor Ireland as the Anti-Christ and Working Designs as the root of all
that
>is unholy
Well, when you set yourself up as "the gamer's company", it's only natural
for people to scratch their heads in disbelief when your actions seem to fly
in the face of that reputation. (ie, no DreamCast games).
>but overall, they're fantastic and the best US publisher in my opinon.
There
>are a few others here, such as Doug Erickson, that seem to share that view,
but
>we're definitely in the minority
Those who unswervingly defend them are just as annoying as those who
perisistently slam them. Personally I still have a pretty favorable opinion
of them overall. But you've got to admit that some of their actions are
highly questionable. What would your reaction be if Square declared "no more
PSX games in the States, and no PSX2 games" simply because they didn't care
for a member of SCEA's management team?
>Compare Working Designs' internet presence, or acknowledgement of
complaints,
>to any other publisher. [SNIP] Atlus (and please don't start on
>"But they're a developer!", in the US, they aren't) is getting pretty good,
but
>even they are a distant second in comparison, with nobody else even close
I actually prefer the no nonsense approach of companies like Atlus and
ASCII, but that's just me.
Grater
Junker wrote in message ...
>>And what bugs me is the number of SEGA system advocates who all wan't to
>paint
>>Victor Ireland as the Anti-Christ and Working Designs as the root of all
>that
>
>Well, when you set yourself up as "the gamer's company", it's only natural
>for people to scratch their heads in disbelief when your actions seem to
fly
>in the face of that reputation. (ie, no DreamCast games).
>
So not producing DreamCast games when the system aint even
being released until a year from now means you aint a "gamers
company".Idiot.
>>but overall, they're fantastic and the best US publisher in my opinon.
>There
>>are a few others here, such as Doug Erickson, that seem to share that
view,
>but
>>we're definitely in the minority
>
>Those who unswervingly defend them are just as annoying as those who
>perisistently slam them. Personally I still have a pretty favorable
opinion
>of them overall. But you've got to admit that some of their actions are
>highly questionable. What would your reaction be if Square declared "no
more
>PSX games in the States, and no PSX2 games" simply because they didn't care
>for a member of SCEA's management team?
>
Well actually this happens a lot in the gaming industry,its just Victor's
more honest than most.If WD rejected the psx2 and say
worked exclusively for the Dreamcast,I would ermm buy the games
for my dreamcast.Preety simple.
>>Compare Working Designs' internet presence, or acknowledgement of
>complaints,
>>to any other publisher. [SNIP] Atlus (and please don't start on
>>"But they're a developer!", in the US, they aren't) is getting pretty
good,
>but
>>even they are a distant second in comparison, with nobody else even close
>
>I actually prefer the no nonsense approach of companies like Atlus and
>ASCII, but that's just me.
As in not talking to you at all?
Nathan Stehle
----------
In article <ANbG1.352$ej4.9...@news.rdc1.mi.home.com>, "Junker"
<mse...@driveninc.com> wrote:
>>And what bugs me is the number of SEGA system advocates who all wan't to
>paint
>>Victor Ireland as the Anti-Christ and Working Designs as the root of all
>that
>>is unholy
>
>Well, when you set yourself up as "the gamer's company", it's only natural
>for people to scratch their heads in disbelief when your actions seem to fly
>in the face of that reputation. (ie, no DreamCast games).
Agreed, except for the no Dreamcast games part. Sega has a tenuous position
right now and from a business standpoint, if I ran a company, I would
be heistant to support the Dreamcast. Keep in mind that Vic also said they
wouldn't be making PS games. But things changed didn't they.
>>but overall, they're fantastic and the best US publisher in my opinon.
>There
>>are a few others here, such as Doug Erickson, that seem to share that view,
>but
>>we're definitely in the minority
Many people are bitter, about Sega and WD.
>Those who unswervingly defend them are just as annoying as those who
>perisistently slam them. Personally I still have a pretty favorable opinion
>of them overall. But you've got to admit that some of their actions are
>highly questionable. What would your reaction be if Square declared "no more
>PSX games in the States, and no PSX2 games" simply because they didn't care
>for a member of SCEA's management team?
It's not merely a case of simply disliking Sega's management team. Bernie
has pissed on Vic's shoes numerous times. What would you do if a company
for
whom you make a product tels you your product is garbage? Thos whole story
has been told and re-hashed many times, so it bears little point to bring it
up again. Suffice it to say that it was a pattern of abuse. Bernie ran the
Saturn into the ground, period.
>>Compare Working Designs' internet presence, or acknowledgement of
>complaints,
>>to any other publisher. [SNIP] Atlus (and please don't start on
>>"But they're a developer!", in the US, they aren't) is getting pretty good,
>but
>>even they are a distant second in comparison, with nobody else even close
>
>I actually prefer the no nonsense approach of companies like Atlus and
>ASCII, but that's just me.
I don't, but that's me. It helps me to realize that Vic is a gamer, and
tries to do the best, as a gamer and as a businessman. Does that mean
he is perfect? Nope. But the amount of venom he has recieved is completely
unwarranted and serves no purpose.
Nathan Stehle
Joshua Kaufman
>
> Junker wrote in message ...
> >paint
> >>Victor Ireland as the Anti-Christ and Working Designs as the root of all
> >that
> >
> >Well, when you set yourself up as "the gamer's company", it's only natural
> >for people to scratch their heads in disbelief when your actions seem to
> fly
> >in the face of that reputation. (ie, no DreamCast games).
> >
>
> being released until a year from now means you aint a "gamers
> company".Idiot.
>
> >There
> >>are a few others here, such as Doug Erickson, that seem to share that
> view,
> >but
> >>we're definitely in the minority
> >
> >perisistently slam them. Personally I still have a pretty favorable
> opinion
> >of them overall. But you've got to admit that some of their actions are
> >highly questionable. What would your reaction be if Square declared "no
> more
> >PSX games in the States, and no PSX2 games" simply because they didn't care
> >for a member of SCEA's management team?
> >
> more honest than most.If WD rejected the psx2 and say
> worked exclusively for the Dreamcast,I would ermm buy the games
> for my dreamcast.Preety simple.
>
Yeah. What about, oh say Sqaure. They rejected Nindendo's business
practices and went to Sony. Capcom and Pygnosis are just making thier
first N64 games now. There are many more examples...
-Joshua
--
User of the name Aerith... Master bad punner... Composer of 8 opi....
Player of FF series... Worshiper of Nobuo Uematsu... Watcher of Sailor
Moon... Member of the Ellipsis Faction... Proprietor of the ellipsis...
ICQ#: 5404138 AOL-IM: TerraEpon
"Is the whole world going bonkers or is it just me!?!"
- Serena on Sailor Moon (eps. 54)
"As you can see, this is a Playstation black disk. Cut number 1 contains
computer data, so please, don't play it. But you probably won't listen
to me, will you?"
- Alucard, when you put C-SOTN in a CD-player
Tyler V. Snow
> I find it interesting that WD is one of the most loved 3rd parties and one
> of the most hated 3rd parties, simultaneously.
Yeah, IMO they're right up there with Square....
--
Tyler V. Snow
tvs...@nextgenfan.com
Castellan
'scuse me, folks, but this simply BEGS to be said:
Can we STOP making assumptions about the reasons and motivations
behing WD's translation efforts? If the past is any indicator, we have proven
ourselves to know fuck-all about the "real" story behind any given WD-relevant
difficulty, and all these wild speculations and assertions are really making a
group of intelligent people look bloody ridiculous.
I'm happy you all (and you know who you are) have opinions, but these
opinions are formed from biased assumptions and NOT from first-hand knowledge
of the WD's problems and the details thereof. If you spin your "solutions"
from ether, you are going to wind up exposing yourself unduly to the gimlet
light of scrutiny. It doesn't take a frickin' Emperor to figure THAT out.
It's fine to bitch about delays. Every company has 'em. The ONLY reason
WD gets the attention that they do is that you feel your cannonade of angst
against Vic will change the situation, an endeavor which has been proven
fruitless time and time again, despite Vic's continued presence.
Your best bet for continued idyllic living is to make a killfile entry
called "Victor Ireland" and simply wait in patience for WD games to get
released. If you wish to involve yourself in future speculations regarding the
why and wheretofore of WD game delays, by all means do so, but don't expect
everyone else to chime in collective praise of your new clothes.
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
SegaNet: http://www.seganet.com/ for Sega-related info ICQ#: 12822495
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
MoonPrince
of whether or not Vic read it since he has not bothered to answer my
questions, comment on my posts since the incident. So here we go again I
guess.
> MoonPrince said around the beginning of August:
> " There's no way to please purists(like me) if you
> dub something over. Change the text, that's cool with me. Change the
> audio? Instant turn-off. It's the reason I passed on a 100%
> comprehensible Rayearth and got a 30% comprehensible one with original
> voices.(and after seeing the dubbed op, thank goodness)."
Yes, you're right Vic. I said this(and still mean it, at least
for myself). But even though I do have a pretty obvious bias against any
english dubbing, I really can't judge until your product comes out. All I
can judge right now, is what I've seen, that being the opening song and
the Umi Diary Entry.
Just like with anime, I can't stand dubbed anime and avoid it at
all costs, but I recognize good ones if they come. "You're Under Arrest"
is probably the only one I consider a "good dub' though.
So I do have bias, I admit it, but I have no right to say much
more until the final product is delivered.
> Getting a message like this in the midst of all the other "we demand"
> messages instantly lumped you in with the otaku-wannabe purists, since
> generally speaking, otaku=purist. Sorry if you were offended.
Thank you, Vic. Although others seem to be still complaining
about various things, I for one, will continue to respect you as a person.
I still don't agree with everything you do, but I am happy that this
matter is cleared between us. I am also sorry if I made some statements
which forced you to say those nasty things.
> It's my job to make games, and I've made it my job to stay in touch here
> on the internet as well,
And I hope you will continue to stay on the internet, considering
the praise as well as the complaints.
> but when there is a hardcore faction that will not and cannot believe
> that someone may actually LIKE something they (as a self-proclaimed
> "purist") detest, I have a problem.
Hmm... a parallel theme lies in anime-related newsgroups all the
time too... at any rate, my point with the Rayearth op is that some
didn't care for the English one, yet don't watch anime. One example is
the maintainer of the SegaNet site. So my assumption was that anyone who
didn't like the song, you grouped as "raving otaku-wannabes". Whether the
assumption is true or not, only you know.
> If you forget that I am the "president" (which I usually do), and view
> me as a fellow netizen that digs games and has (and is entitled to)
> strong opinions as well, you'll fare much better.
And I respect you as a gamer. Always have, always will. But it
was hard to ignore the fact that you are a president when some became the
target of insults. If you hate Deep Fear, yes, that's your opinion. I
haven't played it, but I read that some here like it. *shrug* But I
always wondered why you would express certain opinions that would
potentially lessen sales of your product. Going back to the
"otaku-wannabe" thing, I'm sure some of those complainers will buy your
product. But insulting them along with the rest of them may cause them to
change their minds. At any rate, I guess this goes with your "fellow
netizen who has strong opinions" personality, and I should respect that as
well. But I'm just saying it's hard to differentiate Vic the gamer and
Vic the president, as you can't ignore one aspect when thinking of the
other.
At any rate, this whole "otaku-wannabe" matter is dropped and you
will never hear from me(at least) about it again.
-Terrence Huey(wow! i have a name!)
Xar
haven't gotten anything spectacular from them lately...Shining Wisdom and AO
don't count. When Lunar: SSS is out for the PSX I'll love 'em again. :-)
If they do get Grandia and it's not put out for the DC, I'll do the HTML for
your site. :-)
-Xar-
Visit my web site! http://www.segadc.com/
I came, I saw, I wrote SegaDC.com's HTML.
>I find it interesting that WD is one of the most loved 3rd parties and one
Castellan
>>And what bugs me is the number of SEGA system advocates who all wan't to
>paint
>>Victor Ireland as the Anti-Christ and Working Designs as the root of all
>that
>>is unholy
>Well, when you set yourself up as "the gamer's company", it's only natural
>for people to scratch their heads in disbelief when your actions seem to fly
>in the face of that reputation. (ie, no DreamCast games).
Vic isn't releasing games for the N64, either. Nor did WD release games
for the SNES, or for the Genesis proper. The Dreamcast is no different - Vic
picks a system to support at a given time and does so. Apparently, the PS
(and possibly the PS 2nd Gen box) are his current choice. You'll have to look
elsewhere for the guarantee of RPGs on the DC - don't bash Vic for what he has
HISTORICALLY done.
>Those who unswervingly defend them are just as annoying as those who
>perisistently slam them. Personally I still have a pretty favorable opinion
>of them overall. But you've got to admit that some of their actions are
>highly questionable. What would your reaction be if Square declared "no more
>PSX games in the States, and no PSX2 games" simply because they didn't care
>for a member of SCEA's management team?
I'd buy the console Square WAS supporting - duh.
>I actually prefer the no nonsense approach of companies like Atlus and
>ASCII, but that's just me.
Then killfile Vic and save yourself the anxiety.
El_Condor
opinion... Working Designs is the BEST company and will always be the BEST
company... Victor Ireland is the head of the BEST company and I will always
support him and Working Designs... If they bring out Rayearth with a crappy
intro I will pay up to $100 for it just because they are the BEST... If it
is bad I will just laugh hysterically at it... I am a huge anime fan but
there is a time when you just say "an anime is an anime and a video game is
a video game". I hope the game comes out soon and I hope Vic keeps
posting... It's more than shitty companies like Square do.
John Hokanson Jr.
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) wrote:
>"Junker" <mse...@driveninc.com> writes:
>
>>>And what bugs me is the number of SEGA system advocates who all wan't to
>>paint
>>>Victor Ireland as the Anti-Christ and Working Designs as the root of all
>>that
>>>is unholy
>
>>Well, when you set yourself up as "the gamer's company", it's only natural
>>for people to scratch their heads in disbelief when your actions seem to fly
>>in the face of that reputation. (ie, no DreamCast games).
>
> Vic isn't releasing games for the N64, either. Nor did WD release games
>for the SNES, or for the Genesis proper. The Dreamcast is no different - Vic
>picks a system to support at a given time and does so. Apparently, the PS
>(and possibly the PS 2nd Gen box) are his current choice. You'll have to look
>elsewhere for the guarantee of RPGs on the DC - don't bash Vic for what he has
>HISTORICALLY done.
>
However Doug, in fairness, it should be mentioned that Vic has given a
resonable explination for no N64 software. He loves the CD ROM media,
and wants to continue publishing software for it. Apparently, he's
loved it since the Turbo CD days (Cosmic Fantasy 2 basically set off
his love affair with the medium) .
Very few people have been questioning such an explination. And so far
everybody except desperate Nintendo advocates have accepted it.
His Dreamcast is much different.......
Castellan
>His Dreamcast is much different.......
If we get Lunar 3 on the PS2, what's the problem? The dislike of
rival consoles by certain Lunar fans is THEIR problem, not Vic's.
Kangaeru Hito
Castellan wrote in message <6sc5om$9oq$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>...
>
>>His Dreamcast is much different.......
>
> If we get Lunar 3 on the PS2, what's the problem? The dislike of
>rival consoles by certain Lunar fans is THEIR problem, not Vic's.
I don't think it's a dislike of rival consoles, I believe it is a dislike of
endless delays. Lunar 3 will PROBABLY (I know Vic just hates this
speculation) appear on the DC and then have to be ported to the PSX2. So,
because of Vic and Bernie's silly arugement we will probably have to wait an
extra year or so to get Lunar 3 (compounded with the typical WD delays).
That is the problem.
Kangaeru Hito
Joshua Kaufman wrote in message <35EA26...@email.uc.edu>...
>
>
>Before this "Lunar 3" speculation goes any furthur, wasn't Magic School
>"Lunar 3"?
>
Ah, no, I think that Magic School is seperate from the main series. It was
originally only on the Game Gear, but was later ported to the Saturn in
Japan (I've heard it wasn't very good).
Joshua Kaufman
Before this "Lunar 3" speculation goes any furthur, wasn't Magic School
"Lunar 3"?
-Joshua
J. Barragan
>
> Kangaeru Hito wrote:
> >
> > Castellan wrote in message <6sc5om$9oq$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>...
> > >
> > >>His Dreamcast is much different.......
> > >
> > > If we get Lunar 3 on the PS2, what's the problem? The dislike of
> > >rival consoles by certain Lunar fans is THEIR problem, not Vic's.
> >
> > I don't think it's a dislike of rival consoles, I believe it is a dislike of
> > endless delays. Lunar 3 will PROBABLY (I know Vic just hates this
> > speculation) appear on the DC and then have to be ported to the PSX2. So,
> > because of Vic and Bernie's silly arugement we will probably have to wait an
> > extra year or so to get Lunar 3 (compounded with the typical WD delays).
> > That is the problem.
>
> Before this "Lunar 3" speculation goes any furthur, wasn't Magic School
> "Lunar 3"?
Magic School Lunar was Lunar 3 as much as Final Fantasy Tactics was
Final Fantasy 8. In other words, no.
Quinn Seed
"If you forget that I am the "president"
(which I usually do), and view me as a fellow netizen that digs games
and has (and is entitled to) strong opinions as well, you'll fare
much better."
Vic, that is the BEST post I've EVER seen you make, I'm serious. I'm happy to
hear that from you, because that's the way I've always looked at it. (not
countring pre-internet access :)
~Quinn
John Hokanson Jr.
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) wrote:
>
>>His Dreamcast is much different.......
>
> If we get Lunar 3 on the PS2, what's the problem? The dislike of
>rival consoles by certain Lunar fans is THEIR problem, not Vic's.
>
Unfortunately, I haven't even brought up Lunar or anything outside
Rayearth in my original post.
I can't understand why when I argue points X and Y, people jump up and
defend point Z. Are they that desperate?
John Hokanson Jr.
(Victor Ireland) wrote:
>In article <35e88af6...@news.vmicro.com>, yangn...@hotmail.com says...
>> Specifically, he should apologize for making us suffer though a battle
>>
>> with the Japanese copyright holder concerning the names. He should
>> come clean and specifically point out that the argument was not to
>> protect the integrity of the the orignal CLAMP work (like many
>> including myself once where falsely led to believe), but rather a
>> battle to include his own manufactured names. An anal battle of
>> fabricated material none of which do justice to this fabulous CLAMP
>> work if you ask me.
>>
>
>Something of this nature simply will NOT happen, because
>YOU still don't know everything that happened on the title (there's
>only so much I can let you in on without getting into NDA trouble),
>AND the bulk of the battle was NOT using the crappy Luce, Anemone,
>Marine names, NOT trying to use our own (an idea we threw out about
>halfway through the fight). Since I can't present the entire
>"battle" and timeline (SoJ must approve the translation notes,
>as usual - they made us change the Shining Wisdom ones when the
>original one detailed honestly the more than 30 bugs we found in
>the released Japanese version we had fixed), it's a disservice to
>put in print even less than I've posted here (which is still not
>everything).
>
I'm sorry Vic, but you did give us a timeline, and it was pretty cut
and dry from my vantage point. If you say there's more then I'm
missing and NDA agreements prevent you from going into further detail,
or expanding upon that, then fine. If you say that only half of the
battle time was devoted to pushing your name changes, then fine.
However, if you still do the math, that's still 9 months time that was
wasted. 9 months time wasted on your attempted americanization of the
game. 9 months time that could have been spent translating the game. 9
months earlier in the Saturn's now deceased life.
What part *exactly* am I missing?
>Of course, there WILL be an apology in the translation notes (when
>was the last time you even SAW translation notes of any substance
>from anyone else, let alone any sort of apology?) the
>length of time this game took is ridiculous, but it won't be
>anywhere near as fanboy-gratifying, fantasy-fact based as what you
>would like.
>
<Shakes Head>
Now see, I just got done in a another USENET flamewar deploring the
use of the word Fanboy. Amusingly, the fanboys are probably going to
be the only hope you have of netting any sort of profit on this game.
At least Zach tries hard not to be condensending, and tells me I'm way
too "hardcore" whenever I bitch an (be)moan crapulant management from
you guys.
Resorting to Ad Hominem is not very becoming on a company CEO.
Sorry if this seems harsh.
John Hokanson Jr.
(Victor Ireland) wrote:
BTW, in my haste to retort to Vic's mannerisms, I had failed to
mention that I do feel it is a step in the right direction to
apologize at all.
Thank you Vic. ^_^
>In article <35e88af6...@news.vmicro.com>, yangn...@hotmail.com says...
>> Specifically, he should apologize for making us suffer though a battle
>>
>> with the Japanese copyright holder concerning the names. He should
>> come clean and specifically point out that the argument was not to
>> protect the integrity of the the orignal CLAMP work (like many
>> including myself once where falsely led to believe), but rather a
>> battle to include his own manufactured names. An anal battle of
>> fabricated material none of which do justice to this fabulous CLAMP
>> work if you ask me.
>>
>
>Something of this nature simply will NOT happen, because
>YOU still don't know everything that happened on the title (there's
>only so much I can let you in on without getting into NDA trouble),
>AND the bulk of the battle was NOT using the crappy Luce, Anemone,
>Marine names, NOT trying to use our own (an idea we threw out about
>halfway through the fight). Since I can't present the entire
>"battle" and timeline (SoJ must approve the translation notes,
>as usual - they made us change the Shining Wisdom ones when the
>original one detailed honestly the more than 30 bugs we found in
>the released Japanese version we had fixed), it's a disservice to
>put in print even less than I've posted here (which is still not
>everything).
>
>Of course, there WILL be an apology in the translation notes (when
>was the last time you even SAW translation notes of any substance
>from anyone else, let alone any sort of apology?) the
>length of time this game took is ridiculous, but it won't be
>anywhere near as fanboy-gratifying, fantasy-fact based as what you
>would like.
>
>--
>Don't Believe the Hype -
> Vic
MCalvert1
>>>His Dreamcast is much different.......
>>
>> If we get Lunar 3 on the PS2, what's the problem? The dislike of
>>rival consoles by certain Lunar fans is THEIR problem, not Vic's.
>>
>
>Unfortunately, I haven't even brought up Lunar or anything outside
>Rayearth in my original post.
>
>I can't understand why when I argue points X and Y, people jump up and
>defend point Z. Are they that desperate?
Well, I can't really speak for the poster, but I will say this. The only point
that I've seen brought up as an argument for why they would like to see WD on
the DC is the possibility that Lunar 3 will be made for the DC initially, and
that it's unfair to the gamer to have to wait for a conversion to the PSX,
PSX2, whatever. I can only assume that the poster figured you for part of that
crowd.
Victor Ireland
> Now see, I just got done in a another USENET flamewar deploring the
> use of the word Fanboy. Amusingly, the fanboys are probably going to
> be the only hope you have of netting any sort of profit on this game.
>
Profit? Sheah, right. Another fanboy fantasy-payback ironic dream
not based in any way shape or form on reality. There is NO hope of
profit on this title. Literally 0.
All the "smart" publishers did the math around the end of last
year and canned their announced Saturn lineups. We're still
releasing Rayearth because we said we would. Late or no,
good or marginal, at least we DO try to keep our word.
Castellan
Which was, indeed, my point - the ONLY bitching about Vic not doing
DC titles has centered around Lunar 3, since WD has the rights to it. Arguing
for any other DC title is pointless, since they are open for another company
to translate, should they choose to do so.
Points "X" and "Y," such as they were, were NOT points - they were
simply efforts to drag more anti-Vic Lunar 3 sentiment into the fracas. I
decided to curb that sad approach before its hearse of a bandwagon started
rolling. Now, if John/MoonPrince/et al want to discuss WD not porting other
titles to the DC, they're free to do so, but they're pissing in the wind -
if they actually *LIKE* WD titles, they're gonna hafta buy a PS2. Heaven
forfend.
You know, it cracks me up to see all the vehement otakoids and
anti-Americanization jihaddi coming out of the woodwork to attack the
practices of a man whose games, if they actually adhered to their dogma,
WOULDN'T BUY, especially considering the amount of anxiety and trauma his
behavior apparently introduces into their lives.
Junker
> Points "X" and "Y," such as they were, were NOT points - they were
>simply efforts to drag more anti-Vic Lunar 3 sentiment into the fracas. I
>decided to curb that sad approach before its hearse of a bandwagon started
>rolling. Now, if John/MoonPrince/et al want to discuss WD not porting other
>titles to the DC, they're free to do so, but they're pissing in the wind -
>if they actually *LIKE* WD titles, they're gonna hafta buy a PS2. Heaven
>forfend.
Well, what if a member of SCEA's management team looks at him the wrong way?
Is he going to take his ball and go home there too?
Victor Ireland
It takes substantially more than a "look" to make me "go home". However, if
that person insulted me personally and blackmailed my company...
Junker
if
>that person insulted me personally and blackmailed my company...
Well if I've got "the wrong end of the stick" as it were, I'll happily
apologize. But from the tone of the discussion on the NGs, I got the
impression that the dispute wasn't all that serious (guess I should consider
the source).
Now get back to work on Lunar!
Joshua Kaufman
>
> Castellan wrote in message <6sddfa$3j4$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>...
> > Points "X" and "Y," such as they were, were NOT points - they were
> >simply efforts to drag more anti-Vic Lunar 3 sentiment into the fracas. I
> >decided to curb that sad approach before its hearse of a bandwagon started
> >rolling. Now, if John/MoonPrince/et al want to discuss WD not porting other
> >titles to the DC, they're free to do so, but they're pissing in the wind -
> >if they actually *LIKE* WD titles, they're gonna hafta buy a PS2. Heaven
> >forfend.
>
> Well, what if a member of SCEA's management team looks at him the wrong way?
> Is he going to take his ball and go home there too?
Why does everyone compalin the WD is a one system publisher? How about
Square, one of the most popular Japaneese comapnys, they only publish
for the PSX, and before that only for the SFam/Snen, and the Fam/Nes
before that.
Or Rare, who are Nintendo exclusive? Or Game Arts (before Lunar on PSX)?
This list goes on and on...
John Hokanson Jr.
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) wrote:
>mcal...@aol.com (MCalvert1) writes:
>
>>>> If we get Lunar 3 on the PS2, what's the problem? The dislike of
>>>>rival consoles by certain Lunar fans is THEIR problem, not Vic's.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, I haven't even brought up Lunar or anything outside
>>>Rayearth in my original post.
>>>
>>>I can't understand why when I argue points X and Y, people jump up and
>>>defend point Z. Are they that desperate?
>
>>Well, I can't really speak for the poster, but I will say this. The only point
>>that I've seen brought up as an argument for why they would like to see WD on
>>the DC is the possibility that Lunar 3 will be made for the DC initially, and
>>that it's unfair to the gamer to have to wait for a conversion to the PSX,
>>PSX2, whatever. I can only assume that the poster figured you for part of that
>>crowd.
>
> Which was, indeed, my point - the ONLY bitching about Vic not doing
>DC titles has centered around Lunar 3, since WD has the rights to it. Arguing
>for any other DC title is pointless, since they are open for another company
>to translate, should they choose to do so.
>
> Points "X" and "Y," such as they were, were NOT points - they were
>simply efforts to drag more anti-Vic Lunar 3 sentiment into the fracas. I
>decided to curb that sad approach before its hearse of a bandwagon started
>rolling. Now, if John/MoonPrince/et al want to discuss WD not porting other
>titles to the DC, they're free to do so, but they're pissing in the wind -
>if they actually *LIKE* WD titles, they're gonna hafta buy a PS2. Heaven
>forfend.
>
Thank you for carrying this this thread completely off tangent.
Points X and Y had nothing to do with Lunar or DC. Reread my original
post.
Kangaeru Hito
Joshua Kaufman wrote in message <35EAEB...@email.uc.edu>...
>
>Why does everyone compalin the WD is a one system publisher? How about
>Square, one of the most popular Japaneese comapnys, they only publish
>for the PSX, and before that only for the SFam/Snen, and the Fam/Nes
>before that.
>Or Rare, who are Nintendo exclusive? Or Game Arts (before Lunar on PSX)?
>This list goes on and on...
>
Here's a problem.
WD has the rights to Lunar 3.
*warning speculation* Lunar 3 = DC game *warning speculation*
WD = Sony publisher
If WD drops the exclusive rights to Lunar, publishes for the DC, or Lunar 3
is scheduled for the PSX2, first (unlikely IMO), there will be no problem in
my eyes.
Joshua Kaufman
But people seem to be complaining outside of the Lunar issue...
Castellan
>>
>> Which was, indeed, my point - the ONLY bitching about Vic not doing
>>DC titles has centered around Lunar 3, since WD has the rights to it. Arguing
>>for any other DC title is pointless, since they are open for another company
>>to translate, should they choose to do so.
>>
>> Points "X" and "Y," such as they were, were NOT points - they were
>>simply efforts to drag more anti-Vic Lunar 3 sentiment into the fracas. I
>>decided to curb that sad approach before its hearse of a bandwagon started
>>rolling. Now, if John/MoonPrince/et al want to discuss WD not porting other
>>titles to the DC, they're free to do so, but they're pissing in the wind -
>>if they actually *LIKE* WD titles, they're gonna hafta buy a PS2. Heaven
>>forfend.
>>
>Thank you for carrying this this thread completely off tangent.
>Points X and Y had nothing to do with Lunar or DC. Reread my original
>post.
You said, and I quote:
"However Doug, in fairness, it should be mentioned that Vic has given a
resonable explination for no N64 software. He loves the CD ROM media,
and wants to continue publishing software for it. Apparently, he's
loved it since the Turbo CD days (Cosmic Fantasy 2 basically set off
his love affair with the medium).
Very few people have been questioning such an explination. And so far
everybody except desperate Nintendo advocates have accepted it.
His Dreamcast is much different......."
His DC "explination" (sic) has, as we ALL know, is his distaste for
working with Bernie Stolar. The implication is that you have a problem with
that explanation -- in fact, you directly imply in the last statement that
his explanation is "unreasonable" (when you consider the first sentence of
your quote). Your point, I am led to assume is that since the Dreamcast is
CD-based and WD is not developing for it, Vic is somehow screwing fans over.
My rebuttal is directly relevant: if you want WD games, buy the
system WD *is* supporting. If you want Lunar 3 (the sore point with most
fans oozing angst over the Sega/WD rift), buy the system Vic releases it for.
Vic's decision is no more "unreasonable" than his decision not to develop
for the N64 or SNES - WD goes where the work will be the most convenient.
CD's are easier than carts to work with, and Kaz Hirai is easier than Bernie
Stolar to work with (from WD's perspective, which is all that matters).
This whole discussion, rife with innuendo and vague implications
as it is, boils down to ONE issue, admit it or nay: Sega loyalists (or
anti-Sony zealots) want WD to develop for the DC, and are trying to guilt
Vic into supporting it, even though they don't have the *foggiest* idea
regarding the relationship and troubles between SoA and WD. Lunar fans, of
course, will buy the console Vic brings it to (I sorely doubt he will sit
on the property if a DC Lunar 3 comes out; if he does, I'll be the first
one on the WD doorstep with my torch and pitchfork).
This isn't directed at John, since I like and respect the fellow,
disagree as we may, but at the idle knuckle-draggers playing the system
loyalist card for bizarre Freudian reasons even I don't wish to speculate on:
GET OVER IT. NOW. It's not gonna kill you to buy a Sony game
product, or to endorse the company. Your motives for "hating" Sony aren't
even remotely altruistic; they're egocentric and juvenile. If you are
pissed that Sony waltzed in and conquered the market out of nowhere, then
SEEK THERAPY or start playing games on your Saturn instead of making puppy-dog
faces at it and cursing cruel fate. Vic's decisions aren't preventing ANYONE
from playing WD titles or Lunar save those determined to remain "faithful"
to one system, which is their own bloody fault and NOT Vic's.
Now, before the anti-WD contingent rises up to proclaim me the Mouth
Of Sauron in this affair, let me make myself clear: I'm not speaking for Vic,
since I barely know the guy and the ultimate fate of WD matters very little
to me. I don't always agree with Vic, and I don't think his phrasing of advice
is always the most diplomatic (however, neither is mine; this isn't hypocrisy
speaking but acknowledgment), but I do agree on ONE thing: we don't know
JACK SQUAT about the motives or reasons behind WD's decisions. WD has been
around for what -- 7, 8 years now -- and I think that span of existence
in an industry as savage as the videogaming one justifies my belief that Vic
knows how to run his company. You may not like his decisions (hell, I don't
like his decision not to support the DC in the slightest), but whining and
trying to guilt Vic into changing his mind when he *knows* what is best for
WD is, as I've said countless times, pissing in the wind.
j_el...@my-dejanews.com
"Kangaeru Hito" <gat...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Joshua Kaufman wrote in message <35EAEB...@email.uc.edu>...
> >
> >Why does everyone compalin the WD is a one system publisher? How about
> >Square, one of the most popular Japaneese comapnys, they only publish
> >for the PSX, and before that only for the SFam/Snen, and the Fam/Nes
> >before that.
> >Or Rare, who are Nintendo exclusive? Or Game Arts (before Lunar on PSX)?
> >This list goes on and on...
> >
>
> Here's a problem.
>
> WD has the rights to Lunar 3.
> *warning speculation* Lunar 3 = DC game *warning speculation*
> WD = Sony publisher
>
> If WD drops the exclusive rights to Lunar, publishes for the DC, or Lunar 3
> is scheduled for the PSX2, first (unlikely IMO), there will be no problem in
> my eyes.
>
>
But it's been said, on multiple occasions, that Lunar 3 will be released in
the US. It's just that, if a version appears on the Dreamcast in Japan, that
particular version will probably not be released in the US, definitely not
under the current situation. It's not even confirmed that Lunar 3 will
appear on the Dreamcast at all. You can cite Game Art's history to speculate
that it will, but it's not fact. Regardless, you have made it clear that you
are fluent in Japanese and don't like Working Designs' humor. So why would
you want a US Working Designs version at all? If it appears on the Dreamcast
but won't appear on that particular system in the US, you'll be playing the
'pure' Japanese version anyway, and (little Working Designs humor here) much
earlier than the rest of us I might add =). We've got a while, hopefully
11-12 months, but probably more, to wait for the Dreamcast in the US. We all
know the fate of an hypothetical albeit quite possible Dreamcast version of
Lunar 3 were it to appear. I don't really care what platform(s) Working
Designs chooses to publish on ; as long as it allows them to direct as much
of their energies to the games, and as little on corporate politics, I'm
happy. I'll probably buy a Dreamcast anyway, but I'm not going to pout and
moan if a quirky cool DC import isn't coming and Working Designs won't
bother, since we know now, in advance, that's just the way it's going to be.
I'll own my Dreamcast for the good games domestically available for it and my
Sony whatever for stuff like Lunar 3. The only conceivable way that Working
Designs would screw Lunar fans under this arrangement is if they don't bring
Lunar 3 to the US at all, and I think we can agree that doesn't appear very
likely.
--
"I used to think I'm indecisive, but now I'm
not so sure." -- Anonymous
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Robert Schmitz
<mse...@driveninc.com> wrote:
> >If you forget that I am the "president"
> >(which I usually do), and view me as a fellow netizen that digs games
> >and has (and is entitled to) strong opinions as well, you'll fare
> >much better.
>
> One would think that a company president would aspire to display a bit more
> decorum than the average "netizen", especially when many of the people he's
> slamming (at least in this ng) helped to put WD on the map with their hard
> earned cash.
But at the same time one appreciates that Vic doesn't display any more
decorum than the average netizen if only because it shows us a side of the
gaming industry (and a gaming company) that we can't really get anywhere
else.
For *years* now I have both read the (neverending) slurs towards Vic on
the net whilst maintaining a valued correspondence (yes friendship) with
him on the side. I can vouch for him: he is not looking to upset anyone
and his heart is truly in the right place where games are concerned. If
anything he is guilty only of overenthusiasm (maybe a bit of perfectionism
as well). His willingness to remain a frequent member of this usenet
community seems like it is being appreciated less and less. How many other
company CEO's reply to your emails or postings?
As for the release dates, has anyone considered that WD is typical, and
the only reason people are so up in arms about the frequency of the delays
of the average WD game are simply because we don't see how often every
other game by every other company is delayed and therefore have nothing to
gauge it against? (sorry about the length of that sentence!)
Rayearth may come out and it may not. Either way it's not the end of the
world. It may be good and it may not. Either way it's not the end of the
world. And as for the wait: it's not like we haven't had 25+ other (mostly
very good) RPGs to keep us busy during...
Back to Cosmic Fantasy 2... ;)
robert
--
"It breathes gas. You die."
S-Forth RPG archive + BIOBOOST! = www.macconnect.com/~robert
Kangaeru Hito
Joshua Kaufman wrote in message <35EB13...@email.uc.edu>...
>Kangaeru Hito wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>>
>> Here's a problem.
>>
>> WD has the rights to Lunar 3.
>> *warning speculation* Lunar 3 = DC game *warning speculation*
>> WD = Sony publisher
>>
>> If WD drops the exclusive rights to Lunar, publishes for the DC, or Lunar
3
>> is scheduled for the PSX2, first (unlikely IMO), there will be no problem
in
>> my eyes.
>
>
Hmm...I'm not sure then. I suppose system advocacy, or perhaps people think
that the presence of Bernie is a silly reason not to publish on the DC (I
used to, but after hearing more details on the reason for departure, I tend
to agree that they should leave, but I'm rather against them taking their
Sega-based licenses (Lunar and *gulp* possibly Grandia) with them).
Joshua Kaufman
Yeah, especially us PSX owners....
Kangaeru Hito
j_el...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6sfd29$onu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
*snipped several good points*
>f it appears on the Dreamcast
>but won't appear on that particular system in the US, you'll be playing the
>'pure' Japanese version anyway, and (little Working Designs humor here)
much
>earlier than the rest of us I might add =).
You bring up several good points. I'm almost certainly not going to buy
WD's Lunar 3 even if they do release it for the DC, so why am I upset?
Mainly, it's because I view this probable action as a somewhat evil business
practice. Also, to clarify one more thing, I *can* play Japanese games, but
it is still quite difficult (lots of time using computer dictionary^_^). If
there did happen to be a somewhat pure translation of Lunar 3 that was
brought out in a timely manner (unlikely for WD, but I won't totally
discount them), I'd probably prefer it (I'm pretty picky, though^_^).
Xar
for WD to port Lunar 3 to the PSX2 assuming the DC does as well as expected.
After all, WD *is* a business, and they're out to make money. If the DC
gets a huge user base, forgetting about the grudge, it would be a *dumb*
business decision to not produce it for the DC. I for one will probably buy
both consoles, so it doesn't bother me, but I don't expect Lunar 3 to come
out for the PSX2 simply because of a grudge. If it does, Vic, quite simply,
doesn't deserve to run WD. It makes absolutely no business sense, and
everyone knows that money is the bottom line in any business.
-Xar-
Visit my web site! http://www.segadc.com/
Cap_Cosmic
memorable (and in some cases, MORE memorable) than anything that Working
Designs has put out. Squaresoft DEVELOPED the games (meaning they conceived
the ideas for the games, programmed the games, and by golly, released them
when they said they would!), while Working Designs only LOCALIZES games for
the US market (meaning they translate it, replace the Japanese text with
English text, maybe tweak the programming or AI, AND THAT'S IT!).
Square has MADE some of the best games that I will ALWAYS remember fondly:
Nintendo Entertainment System:
Final Fantasy
Super Nintendo Entertainment System:
Secret of Mana
Final Fantasy II
Final Fantasy III and,
Chrono Trigger
Playstation:
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy Tactics
And I am eagerly awaiting for:
Xenogears and
Final Fantasy VIII
And Square hasn't just made RPG's either:
Tobal
Tobal 2
Bushido Blade
Bushido Blade 2
And how about their "Front Mission" games that never even saw the light of
day here in the U.S.? (They are probably some of the best strategy/RPG's
ever made for any system.)
I know I've skipped some of Square's other games, but the ones listed above
are the ones I've actually played and enjoyed or are looking forward to.
Let's see, and what has WD put out?
Sega CD
Popful Mail
Vay
Lunar Silver Star Story
Lunar Eternal Blue
Saturn:
Iron Storm
Shining Wisdom
Albert Oddessey
Sega Ages Collection
Dragon Force
Playstation:
Elemental Gearbolt
Raystorm
Alundra
and upcoming:
Saturn:
Magic Knight Rayearth
Playstation:
Lunar
An impressive list, I agree, but Working Designs did not MAKE any of them.
Give credit where credit is due (i.e. GameArts made the Lunar Series.)
IMHO, WD is a "good" localization company, but not the best. And c'mon, be
honest. Would you REALLY spend $100.00 for a game that's 3 years old and
very, very short? If you're such a huge anime fan, you probably have the
fansubs, or at least have seen the series, right? If so, then why not just
buy the import? The game follows the storyline of the series and you would
probably have a better idea of what to do than anyone else.
By raving about how WD is the "BEST", and how you would spend $100.00 for
the game (even if it's crappy), you're perpetuating the fanboy, otaku
stereotype that's recently been debated here in this ng. Why not say
something intelligent and say why you think WD is the best? or why you think
Square is bad. (It's my understanding that Sony did the translation of FF7
and rushed it to the shelves to meet their promised street date, not Square.
I also think that Shining Wisdom sucked! <--you had to repeatedly press the
attack button to build up your attack meter, hold it when it was at the
level you wanted & then release the attack button when you wanted to strike
an enemy<--I felt this "feature" interfered with gameplay, and didn't
enhance the gaming experience. If I wanted to play track and field, I would
have bought Sega's Decathelete or Konami's Track and Field.)
And BTW, here are a bunch of other companies that I think do kick-ass jobs:
Atlus (Sai/Devil Dice anyone?)
Capcom (BofFire3, Streetfighter series in any incarnation, Megaman series)
Konami (Castlevania, Vandal Hearts, Suikoden)
Namco (Tekken series, Soul Edge)
Tecmo (Deception, Dead or Alive)
THQ (Ghost in the Shell, Grandstream Saga)
I like Working Designs, too, and really respect their choice in games to
bring to the U.S. market, but I have to say that I'm really disappointed in
them, too.
Here's what I think is good about WD:
1) Great choices in games to bring to the U.S.
2) Vic keeps in "touch" with gamers through the newsgroups
3) Awesome Packaging
Here's what I have mixed feelings about:
1) Working Design's tongue-in-cheek translations with references to U.S.
incidents and/or media figures
2) Changes in gameplay (i.e. making the U.S. version much more harder than
the original Japanese game - they should allow the gamers the option of
playing the original version or a "suped" up harder version (i.e. their
version) <--they could give "bonuses" to people who finish the harder
version, thereby increasing replay value - bonuses could include a save file
that allows the user's character or vehicle to change their
clothes/shape/design or gives the user's character or vehicle enhanced
powers or access to a in-game movie theater, or awesome shots of
pre-production art that was used in the development of the game).
And here's what I think is really bad about WD:
1) Missed ship dates
And since we've pretty much read / heard the debates on that, I don't think
I have to get into that one.
Sorry for the long post!
El_Condor wrote in message <6sc8l9$c14$1...@camel25.mindspring.com>...
>I've been reading these messages for awhile now and here is my own
>opinion... Working Designs is the BEST company and will always be the BEST
>company... Victor Ireland is the head of the BEST company and I will always
>support him and Working Designs... If they bring out Rayearth with a crappy
>intro I will pay up to $100 for it just because they are the BEST... If it
>is bad I will just laugh hysterically at it... I am a huge anime fan but
>there is a time when you just say "an anime is an anime and a video game is
>a video game". I hope the game comes out soon and I hope Vic keeps
>posting... It's more than shitty companies like Square do.
>
>
>
MCalvert1
>both consoles, so it doesn't bother me, but I don't expect Lunar 3 to come
>out for the PSX2 simply because of a grudge. If it does, Vic, quite simply,
>doesn't deserve to run WD. It makes absolutely no business sense, and
>everyone knows that money is the bottom line in any business.
>
>-Xar-
That seems like a foolish comment considering Victor Ireland didn't take over
some company or something like that. It's his company. He MADE it. He has
the right to do whatever he wants with it, and I highly doubt that he would
take on a project, knowing ahead of time that it wouldn't make his company
money, just to give Bernie Stolar the finger. Also, speculating that the PSX2
will be beaten out by the Dreamcast is kinda far fetched, from a historical
standpoint anyhow.
Xar
*true*. If the DC blows the doors (notice the *if*) off sales, and Vic
still decides to spend the extra time and money to port it to the PSX2, no
matter how popular, it's not a practical business decision. Notice I said
business decision, not personal preference. If he decides to "give Bernie
Stolar the finger", and lose money, then fine, his company is screwed.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I can always go back and play Lunar for
the SegaCD, it's still the greatest game ever made, IMHO.
-Xar-
Visit my web site! http://www.segadc.com/
>That seems like a foolish comment considering Victor Ireland didn't take
Joshua Kaufman
And Thunderforce 5, and Shilouette Marage
>
> An impressive list, I agree, but Working Designs did not MAKE any of them.
> Give credit where credit is due (i.e. GameArts made the Lunar Series.)
>
> IMHO, WD is a "good" localization company, but not the best. And c'mon, be
> honest. Would you REALLY spend $100.00 for a game that's 3 years old and
> very, very short?
$65 is the retail....EB's selling it for $55.
If you're such a huge anime fan, you probably have the
> fansubs, or at least have seen the series, right? If so, then why not just
> buy the import? The game follows the storyline of the series and you would
> probably have a better idea of what to do than anyone else.
>
> By raving about how WD is the "BEST", and how you would spend $100.00 for
> the game (even if it's crappy), you're perpetuating the fanboy, otaku
> stereotype that's recently been debated here in this ng. Why not say
> something intelligent and say why you think WD is the best? or why you think
> Square is bad. (It's my understanding that Sony did the translation of FF7
> and rushed it to the shelves to meet their promised street date, not >Square.
Nope. Square USA did the piece of crap translation of that and FFT (and
SF, Einhander, Tobal...)
> I also think that Shining Wisdom sucked! <--you had to repeatedly press the
> attack button to build up your attack meter, hold it when it was at the
> level you wanted & then release the attack button when you wanted to strike
> an enemy<--I felt this "feature" interfered with gameplay, and didn't
> enhance the gaming experience. If I wanted to play track and field, I would
> have bought Sega's Decathelete or Konami's Track and Field.)
>
> And BTW, here are a bunch of other companies that I think do kick-ass jobs:
>
> Atlus (Sai/Devil Dice anyone?)
Translating, yes. Their games save Persona aren;'t anything special
though.
> Capcom (BofFire3, Streetfighter series in any incarnation, Megaman >series)
Only three recnet games they've done well on IMO (Puzzle and Pocket
Fighter, BoF3 which had a perfect translation)
> Konami (Castlevania, Vandal Hearts, Suikoden)
Second only to Square IMO
> Namco (Tekken series, Soul Edge)
Second most overrated to Rare IMO (hehe...it rhymes)
> Tecmo (Deception, Dead or Alive)
Eh...not bad
> THQ (Ghost in the Shell, Grandstream Saga)
But besides those they aren;t too hot...
>
> I like Working Designs, too, and really respect their choice in games to
> bring to the U.S. market, but I have to say that I'm really disappointed in
> them, too.
>
> Here's what I think is good about WD:
>
> 1) Great choices in games to bring to the U.S.
Yep.
> 2) Vic keeps in "touch" with gamers through the newsgroups
Definatly.
> 3) Awesome Packaging
For sure.
>
> Here's what I have mixed feelings about:
>
> 1) Working Design's tongue-in-cheek translations with references to U.S.
> incidents and/or media figures
I like them. They make the game feel more "homey".
> 2) Changes in gameplay (i.e. making the U.S. version much more harder than
> the original Japanese game - they should allow the gamers the option of
> playing the original version or a "suped" up harder version (i.e. their
> version) <--they could give "bonuses" to people who finish the harder
> version, thereby increasing replay value - bonuses could include a save file
> that allows the user's character or vehicle to change their
> clothes/shape/design or gives the user's character or vehicle enhanced
> powers or access to a in-game movie theater, or awesome shots of
> pre-production art that was used in the development of the game).
I agree. I like Raystorm alot, but would like to see the whole
game...I'm not a very good shooter player, but can breeze through level
1 difficulty...but level 5 (which is first non-trainiong level) I can't
do too well.
>
> And here's what I think is really bad about WD:
>
> 1) Missed ship dates
>
> And since we've pretty much read / heard the debates on that, I don't think
> I have to get into that one.
My thoery about this is that they just release their dates too soon.
Lunar PSX for instence, had it's date (8/4) within days of its
announcement. The four upcoming Square games, OTOH, had release dates
announced abotu a month ago, and only one has been delayed (for want of
a better translation).
Look at Capcom. They delay things all the time (BoF3 was delayed at
least 3 months, Mega Man legends 4 months), but noone ever says they are
like WD...
El_Condor
Hmmm... well here are a few reasons why Working Designs rules...
1. They listen to their fans comments and modify their games to conform to
their desires (most of the time).
2. They are considerate enough to translate great games like Lunar so that
those of us that can't speak Japanese can still enjoy great games. (note: I
cannot understand Japanese and therefore import Rayearth is almost useless
to me. And don't give me that you can use a FAQ crap because it ruins a
game and you know it.)
3. Their translations are funny.
4. All of the games they translate are a lot of fun (with maybe the
exception of Shining Wisdom)
Now for reasons why Square sucks:
1. FF Tactics sucks...you know it does... I'd much rather play Shining
Force 3
2. Final Fantasy 7 gets boring after over 40 hours of gameplay...
3. Chrono Trigger sucks
4. Square fans are in general raving fanboy lunatics
Now, I know everyone thinks I'm a raving WD fan and I'll admit that I sort
of am... but for good reason. Games like Lunar Silvar Star, Lunar EB, Vay,
Popful Mail, Dragon Force, Elemental Gearbolt, ... (the list goes on and on)
have been the best games I have ever played (with the exception of Guardian
Heroes). It is sad that people rag on WD when they are the only company
considerate enough to bring great games to the US. It almost breaks my
heart to look at great import RPG's that I can't play because (as Game Fan
says) they do not have a big enough RPG fan base in the US. Well I'm sick
of the same old fighting and sports games and have bought almost every RPG
to come out since Phantasy Star 1... I hope WD keeps bringing great games on
whatever system it decides to support whether it be PS2 or DC or whatever...
Ken Arromdee
>>Marine names, NOT trying to use our own (an idea we threw out about
>>halfway through the fight).
Vic, if you had requested the original names all along, instead of only
after your own second set of names wasn't accepted, would that have reduced
the delay any?
>>Since I can't present the entire
>>"battle" and timeline (SoJ must approve the translation notes,
>>as usual - they made us change the Shining Wisdom ones when the
>>original one detailed honestly the more than 30 bugs we found in
>>the released Japanese version we had fixed),
Would you be able to post this list of bugs here or on your web site?
--
Ken Arromdee |They said it was *daft* to build a space
arro...@inetnow.net |station in a swamp, but I showed them! It
karr...@nyx.nyx.net |sank into the swamp. So I built a second
http://www.inetnow.net/~arromdee|space station. That sank into the swamp too.
--------------------------------+My third space station sank into the swamp.
So I built a fourth one. That fell into a time warp and _then_ sank into the
swamp. But the fifth one... stayed up! --Monty Python/Babylon 5
Joshua Kaufman
>
> Hmmm... well here are a few reasons why Working Designs rules...
>
> 1. They listen to their fans comments and modify their games to conform to
> their desires (most of the time).
>
> 2. They are considerate enough to translate great games like Lunar so that
> those of us that can't speak Japanese can still enjoy great games. (note: I
> cannot understand Japanese and therefore import Rayearth is almost useless
> to me. And don't give me that you can use a FAQ crap because it ruins a
> game and you know it.)
>
> 3. Their translations are funny.
>
> 4. All of the games they translate are a lot of fun (with maybe the
> exception of Shining Wisdom)
>
> Now for reasons why Square sucks:
> 1. FF Tactics sucks...you know it does... I'd much rather play Shining
> Force 3
> 2. Final Fantasy 7 gets boring after over 40 hours of gameplay...
> 3. Chrono Trigger sucks
> 4. Square fans are in general raving fanboy lunatics
Those first three are purly opnions. Just because I'm a Square fan, and
happen to really LIKE pretty much everthing they put out, does NOT make
me a raving fanboy lunitic. Everyone has DIFFERENT tatses, and therefore
should not be judged based on what they do or do not like.
El_Condor
that :)
>Those first three are purly opnions. Just because I'm a Square fan, and
>happen to really LIKE pretty much everthing they put out, does NOT make
>me a raving fanboy lunitic. Everyone has DIFFERENT tatses, and therefore
>should not be judged based on what they do or do not like.
>
Victor Ireland
> >>AND the bulk of the battle was NOT using the crappy Luce, Anemone,
> >>Marine names, NOT trying to use our own (an idea we threw out about
> >>halfway through the fight).
>
> Vic, if you had requested the original names all along, instead of only
> after your own second set of names wasn't accepted, would that have reduced
> the delay any?
>
Nope. We went to the wire (within 1 day of losing our SEGA licensee status)
over NOT using the crappy TMS names. The wanted to use the game as a
springboard for launching the video. We hated their new names and
would not be part of it (whether to use ours or theirs). We agreed
to port the original Japanese names, and they signed that contract.
Trying to change things after the fact using strongarm tactics was
lame, and I wouldn't stand for it.
Victor Ireland
> >>"battle" and timeline (SoJ must approve the translation notes,
> >>as usual - they made us change the Shining Wisdom ones when the
> >>original one detailed honestly the more than 30 bugs we found in
> >>the released Japanese version we had fixed),
>
> Would you be able to post this list of bugs here or on your web site?
>
Um, I have enough grief over CURRENT projects. I really don't want
to stir things up over a game that's 3 years old. That team is
still doing stuff, and I wouldn't want to sour relations with them
by going against their strong wishes. Suffice to say that the
bugs in the JApanese version were similar to the one or two that
remained undetected in the US version, just a LOT more of them
and MUCH easier to reproduce, even accidentally.
John Hokanson Jr.
<el_c...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Hmmm... well here are a few reasons why Working Designs rules...
>
>1. They listen to their fans comments and modify their games to conform to
>their desires (most of the time).
>
The former is true (thankfully), the latter is usually done in the way
*Vic* wants it to be. If they listed to the fans on this group they
might dump the Americanization sthick completely.
>2. They are considerate enough to translate great games like Lunar so that
>those of us that can't speak Japanese can still enjoy great games. (note: I
>cannot understand Japanese and therefore import Rayearth is almost useless
>to me. And don't give me that you can use a FAQ crap because it ruins a
>game and you know it.)
>
Depends. I'm playing Sakura Taisen right now and I'm still mesmorized
by it. It's the closest you can possibally come to playing in an
anime. You'd be surprised how much you can pick up after playing
enough Japanese RPGs, and watching anime. You can point out the
cultural quirks, and understand the gist of the plot. This is even by
somebody who still has of yet to learn Katakana.
So I wouldn't say that statement is completely and entirely true. We
Saturn fans have to resort to importing now, and we continue to do so.
We still get a kick out of games like ST, Grandia, ect. *We* don't
think that having untranslated games ruins things. I'm sorry you do.
And FWIW, MKRE is a little different then normal........
Seen the anime?
You've essentially played the game.
>3. Their translations are funny.
>
Subjectivity.
I find the humor juvenial and sometimes tasteless. Majority opinion on
this group seems to agree that we could do without it.
>4. All of the games they translate are a lot of fun (with maybe the
>exception of Shining Wisdom)
>
>Now for reasons why Square sucks:
>1. FF Tactics sucks...you know it does... I'd much rather play Shining
>Force 3
Opinion.
>2. Final Fantasy 7 gets boring after over 40 hours of gameplay...
Opinion.
>3. Chrono Trigger sucks
Opinion.
And I actually thought Chrono had worth.
>4. Square fans are in general raving fanboy lunatics
>
Occasionally, but then, isn't what you're acting like right now?
John Hokanson Jr.
<kauf...@email.uc.edu> wrote:
>Kangaeru Hito wrote:
>>
>> Castellan wrote in message <6sc5om$9oq$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>...
>> >
>> >>His Dreamcast is much different.......
>> >
>> > If we get Lunar 3 on the PS2, what's the problem? The dislike of
>> >rival consoles by certain Lunar fans is THEIR problem, not Vic's.
>>
>> I don't think it's a dislike of rival consoles, I believe it is a dislike of
>> endless delays. Lunar 3 will PROBABLY (I know Vic just hates this
>> speculation) appear on the DC and then have to be ported to the PSX2. So,
>> because of Vic and Bernie's silly arugement we will probably have to wait an
>> extra year or so to get Lunar 3 (compounded with the typical WD delays).
>> That is the problem.
>
>Before this "Lunar 3" speculation goes any furthur, wasn't Magic School
>"Lunar 3"?
>
Nope. Magical School was Magical School. ^_^
John Hokanson Jr.
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) wrote:
\
Yeah, yeah......explanation. Be sure to put the sic there, like last
time I mispelled "stretch".
Embarrass me why don't ya, stinky little anti-otaku english major
college boy. ^_^
> has, as we ALL know, is his distaste for
>working with Bernie Stolar. The implication is that you have a problem with
>that explanation -- in fact, you directly imply in the last statement that
>his explanation is "unreasonable" (when you consider the first sentence of
>your quote). Your point, I am led to assume is that since the Dreamcast is
>CD-based and WD is not developing for it, Vic is somehow screwing fans over.
>
No I pointing out that a Hardware conflict is a litte more cut and dry
then a personal one. It's easier for people to accept.
You do agree that material objects are a little easier to grasp then
brainwave activity do you not Doug?
Victor comes out and says:
"Okay people, we will not develop for the N64 or it's peripheral Bulky
Drive componet because we don't like the development kit, the software
storage componet, the programming language, the software
opportunities. (blah blah blah, et cetera et cetera, ad nausiem, ad
infintium and other cool latin words)."
Resonable gamers with no system bias: Okay, sounds good.
8 year old N64 owners: ##$@%$! You suck Vic! "^_^"
That's a little different then bashing a peice of hardware that isn't
being released yet because of ONE person in the drivers seat.
But again, to reiterate, this wasn't even a part of my original post.
I was only trying to put a different spin one your response to
Dreamcast supporters (and remember as I told you on ICQ, I have yet to
become one). I was thinking in chain of thought. You mentioned
something I felt like I could have contributed and alternate point of
view to.
I want to know how we got from Rayearth to this? Somebody derailed my
finely tuned bullet train. "^_^"
> My rebuttal is directly relevant: if you want WD games, buy the
>system WD *is* supporting. If you want Lunar 3 (the sore point with most
>fans oozing angst over the Sega/WD rift), buy the system Vic releases it for.
>Vic's decision is no more "unreasonable" than his decision not to develop
>for the N64 or SNES - WD goes where the work will be the most convenient.
>CD's are easier than carts to work with, and Kaz Hirai is easier than Bernie
>Stolar to work with (from WD's perspective, which is all that matters).
>
Okay fair enough. Nobody's agruing that. I think most of the people
are talking about games on Dreamcast (or potential ones) they want WD
to support, and they're afraid that they'll be left in Japan because
of maybe (*MAYBE*) a petty grudge stonewalled any effort to get them
out over here.