Nightmare==>hardware sales in my local store
M A
1) SNES 9 (DC 2 effective)
2) PlayStation 7
2) Sega Genesis 7
2) 3DO GoldStar 5 sold out
3DO Panasonic 2
5) Sega Saturn 6 boom
7) Atari 0
Why the hell is SNES an SG is so strong. They are 16bit.
The M A
The Fire Zone
SHELBYH
Here's my $0.02 on this one. The 16 bit systems are the cheapest of all
of the systems you mentioned. That makes them more attractive Christmas
gifts from parents who don't know better. And since there seem to be
plenty of those people around, you can almost bet that these sytems will
be the biggest sellers. After all, the Saturn is like $300(?), and a
Genesis is like about $100something(?). Which do you think a parent is
more willing to buy? (BTW, please don't flame me for being wrong about
the prices. I know I'm somewhere in the ballpark with them but I haven't
bought a system in a few years.)
--
Shelby Hepner | Life, the Universe, and Everything - 42!
She...@cris.com |
She...@gl.umbc.edu | http://www.cris.com/~Shelbyh
She...@umbc2.umbc.edu | home of the Chrono Trigger Page
rik@ns2
>This weeks sales is horrible for a 32bit(64atari) owners!
>1) SNES 9 (DC 2 effective)
>2) PlayStation 7
>2) Sega Genesis 7
>2) 3DO GoldStar 5 sold out
> 3DO Panasonic 2
>5) Sega Saturn 6 boom
>7) Atari 0
>Why the hell is SNES an SG is so strong. They are 16bit.
Because they are cheaper and there are still good games available?
The 2600 continued to sell long after the 8 bits were out.
The better question is: Who the hell bought the Panasonic 3DO?
Katherine Scheirman
>
>M A <30...@student.csi.cuny.edu> writes:
>
>>This weeks sales is horrible for a 32bit(64atari) owners!
>
>>1) SNES 9 (DC 2 effective)
>>2) PlayStation 7
>>2) Sega Genesis 7
>>2) 3DO GoldStar 5 sold out
>> 3DO Panasonic 2
>>5) Sega Saturn 6 boom
>>7) Atari 0
>
>>Why the hell is SNES an SG is so strong. They are 16bit.
>>
Philip
>This weeks sales is horrible for a 32bit(64atari) owners!
>1) SNES 9 (DC 2 effective)
>2) PlayStation 7
>2) Sega Genesis 7
>2) 3DO GoldStar 5 sold out
> 3DO Panasonic 2
>5) Sega Saturn 6 boom
>7) Atari 0
>Why the hell is SNES an SG is so strong. They are 16bit.
Easy, first the P.S. and Saturn are $300 not including a game.
Most buyers during the holidays are parents, and unless that system is
_the_ system, and only if it's under the $200 figure, will they even
consider buying one for their kids.
And maybe more important, the impending April release of the U64.
Phil...
B Morphin
>>Why the hell is SNES an SG is so strong. They are 16bit.
>Easy, first the P.S. and Saturn are $300 not including a game.
>Most buyers during the holidays are parents, and unless that system is
>_the_ system, and only if it's under the $200 figure, will they even
>consider buying one for their kids.
>
>And maybe more important, the impending April release of the U64.
>
Not to chop ya to hard, but I can't believe there's even 1 consumer out
there that right now is just deciding to by a SNES/Genisis to hold off
there current craving for the U64. Heck if your intrested in 32 bit
plus systems why would anybody go by a 16 bit system now. The person
buying the 16 bit system has no intrest in a U64.
The 16-bits are sellin for those parents that have children and want
them out of there hair for a good amount of time during a day for the
best possible cost. You put a 3 year old in front of the tube and a 16
bit is still an excellent choice. Face it video games for young
children are most definately intended to keep them occupied while there
parents do there thing.
BH
Andrew P Carter
After I get a Saturn, I may buy an SNES or SG, just because the games
are sooo cheap nowadays...
Mark Phaedrus
> This weeks sales is horrible for a 32bit(64atari) owners!
> 1) SNES 9 (DC 2 effective)
> 2) PlayStation 7
> 2) Sega Genesis 7
> 2) 3DO GoldStar 5 sold out
> 3DO Panasonic 2
> 5) Sega Saturn 6 boom
> 7) Atari 0
> Why the hell is SNES an SG is so strong. They are 16bit.
Because, to some people, $100 is a lot of money to spend on a
videogame system, and $200-300 for a Playstation/Saturn/3DO is simply out
of the question. Heck, to some people, $100 for a SNES/Genesis is simply
out of the question.
--
\o\ If you're interested in books/stories with transformation themes,\o\
\o\please try <URL:http://www.halcyon.com/phaedrus/Menu.html>, or \o\
/o/anonymous-ftp to ftp.halcyon.com in /local/phaedrus/translist. /o/
/o/ Comments and submissions to this list are always welcome. /o/
DonRawlins
Hehe. <chuckle> Hehe.
Don
Mike S Reynolds
M A <30...@student.csi.cuny.edu> wrote:
>
>Why the hell is SNES an SG is so strong. They are 16bit.
SNES has a lot of good software this year. Sega has managed to keep system
sales going with their 6-game system which is very popular.
Mike Reynolds
degreeAbsolute
>Here's my $0.02 on this one. The 16 bit systems are the cheapest of all
>of the systems you mentioned. That makes them more attractive Christmas
>gifts from parents who don't know better. And since there seem to be
>plenty of those people around, you can almost bet that these sytems will
>be the biggest sellers. After all, the Saturn is like $300(?), and a
>Genesis is like about $100something(?). Which do you think a parent is
>more willing to buy? (BTW, please don't flame me for being wrong about
>the prices. I know I'm somewhere in the ballpark with them but I haven't
>bought a system in a few years.)
I don't think it's just 'parents who don't know better'. I don't
think that buying an SNES or SG is necessarily a bad choice for a
parent with a young child (say under 10 or so) because there just
aren't any kids games available for either PSX or Saturn.
My Aunt called me with this question about a month ago. I was about
to spit out "Don't buy anything else but PSX or Saturn!" when I
realized she was buying it for my 8 year old cousin. What is she
going to do, drop $300-$400 just to play Bug or Ridge Racer?
SNES and SG both have tons of kids titles that they can enjoy. Maybe
next christmas, there will be 32 and/or 64 bit stuff for kids and it
will be a different story.
degreeAbsolute
Eric Pobirs
And how many 8 year olds do you trust with CDs? This is a Nintendo
motive that everybody seems to ignore.
John Tisch
>
> M A <30...@student.csi.cuny.edu> wrote:
>
> >This weeks sales is horrible for a 32bit(64atari) owners!
>
> > 3DO Panasonic 2
> The better question is: Who the hell bought the Panasonic 3DO?
Shit, though most of you haven't noticed 3DO has been putting out
some pretty good apps the last 6 months .. And 3DO is the ONLY system
still to date that I know that uses Surround Sound in most of their
games, shit nothing can touch the feel one gets when playing FIFA 3DO,
with the crowd chants etc.. NFS again the audio is beutiful along with
the game play itself (sure some say it's slow, but that is what the
authors were trying to accomplish, not some unrealistic driver like
Rally).. Now I'm not trying to tout 3DO as A#1, but what I am saying is
one cannot disregard it, though many of would like to (shit I did back
in May when I bought my Saturn then in September when I got my
Playstation), but recently I have been REAL tempted to kill both my
Saturn and my PSX and go back to my 3DO, the games on their were written
more for the Adult crowd, not the "kiddie" crowd like Saturn and PSX
(especially PSX) ..... Flames, I can already feel 'em, but their are
others out their that feel the same way.... And quit honestly the
PSX/Saturn games just are not that much "better".. Sure Rally and VF2
are damn good, but that's only 2 games, and Rally needs the Racer, and
VF2 needs a joystick... So if I ask myself is $400 worth 2 games, I'd
have to say no.. is $400 worth about 20 GREAT games, sure is ....
- John
MoJo
In article <4b79b9$5...@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>, <q...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
U64.
> >
>
> Not to chop ya to hard, but I can't believe there's even 1 consumer out
> there that right now is just deciding to by a SNES/Genisis to hold off
> there current craving for the U64. Heck if your intrested in 32 bit
> plus systems why would anybody go by a 16 bit system now. The person
> buying the 16 bit system has no intrest in a U64.
>
> The 16-bits are sellin for those parents that have children and want
> them out of there hair for a good amount of time during a day for the
> best possible cost. You put a 3 year old in front of the tube and a 16
> bit is still an excellent choice. Face it video games for young
> children are most definately intended to keep them occupied while there
> parents do there thing.
>
> BH
>
>
SNES two months ago because I love RPG's and I discovered that there are a lot
of them available for SNES. I intend to buy a U64 as soon as Final Fantasy 4
becomes available for it. I haven't bought a Saturn or a Playstation (or a
Genesis, for that matter) because none of those platforms have any decent
RPG's.
But buying a U64 doesn't mean that I will stop playing the SNES. There are a
LOT of RPG's for it and I can see myself enjoying it for the forseeable
future. The purchase of the SNES and that of the U64 are not related in any
way in my mind. I buy a game system in order to play the games it supports.
Period.
Maybe those parents who are buying SNES systems for their kids for Christmas
are doing it based on the sheer volume of games that are available for it. If
I'm not real sure which games my kid wants, I might still be convinced to buy
the game system which has one solid wall FULL of games on display at virtually
every software shop in town. Even if publishers stopped producing SNES games
tomorrow, my kid could play the current crop for YEARS before he ran out of
carts to buy/rent.
Actually, while I'm not saying your post is guilty of this...I continue to be
amazed at those people who've made their gaming platform purchase(s) based on
their own wants...but they're still so uncertain of themselves that they feel
driven to keep validating this decision in their own minds by insulting anyone
whose choice doesn't match their own.
Insult me if you like, but common sense tells me this: If you say my decision
to buy a particular platform 'sucks' because that platform can't play the
latest FighterKillerArcade game, I submit that buying a system because it
*can* play that game would be a pretty stupid decision for me to
make...because I don't WANT to play that game. That doesn't mean it was a
stupid decision for YOU to make, mind you. If you want to play that game,
then you made the right decision for YOU.
sheesh. some people's children.
<grin> MJ
B Morphin
Seems angry. He said I knocked somebody for buying a 16 bit system. Well I re-read my
post below and I don't see it knocking anybody for buying any system. The closest thing
I said in that regards is "If you're interested in a 32 bit+ system why would anybody
go by a 16 bit system?", not really saying your dumb for doing so.
Hey buy'em all, be happy. You have some good points about the library size of the SNES
and I wish you well.
qaz writes:
>> Not to chop ya to hard, but I can't believe there's even 1 consumer out
>> there that right now is just deciding to by a SNES/Genisis to hold off
>> there current craving for the U64. Heck if your intrested in 32 bit
>> plus systems why would anybody go by a 16 bit system now. The person
>> buying the 16 bit system has no intrest in a U64.
>>
>> The 16-bits are sellin for those parents that have children and want
>> them out of there hair for a good amount of time during a day for the
>> best possible cost. You put a 3 year old in front of the tube and a 16
>> bit is still an excellent choice. Face it video games for young
>> children are most definately intended to keep them occupied while there
>> parents do there thing.
>>
>> BH
>>
>Insult me if you like, but common sense tells me this: If you say my decision
>to buy a particular platform 'sucks' because that platform can't play the
>latest FighterKillerArcade game, I submit that buying a system because it
>*can* play that game would be a pretty stupid decision for me to
>make...because I don't WANT to play that game. That doesn't mean it
was a
>stupid decision for YOU to make, mind you. If you want to play that
game,
>then you made the right decision for YOU.
I'm not saying the above in the least.
BH
Emp
: there that right now is just deciding to by a SNES/Genisis to hold off
: there current craving for the U64. Heck if your intrested in 32 bit
: plus systems why would anybody go by a 16 bit system now. The person
: buying the 16 bit system has no intrest in a U64.
I bought the Saturn and PSX when they came out. I also bought a JVC X'eye
a few weeks ago (because it was so cheap < $99). I intend on buying an
Ultra64 when that hits the market. Mind you this is with credit :), but I
did buy a 16bit system <gasp> among the onslaught of all this new technology.
: The 16-bits are sellin for those parents that have children and want
: them out of there hair for a good amount of time during a day for the
: best possible cost. You put a 3 year old in front of the tube and a 16
: bit is still an excellent choice. Face it video games for young
: children are most definately intended to keep them occupied while there
: parents do there thing.
The JVC X'eye has been getting MORE use than either of my 32bit systems.
I actually find some of the games to be more enjoyable. I don't consider
myself a kid either, as I am 18 years of age and in college. I don't
think your theory holds up. Here's mine. Because a LOT of people traded
in their systems and 10 games for a PSX, there's plenty of used
[quality] 16bit titles to go around. When a consumer, like myself, sees
all the games at such a reasonable price, it's hard to pass up buying one
of the 16bit systems.
JBBJR
making inroads.
Tranthor Alain Sorz
> And how many 8 year olds do you trust with CDs? This is a Nintendo
>motive that everybody seems to ignore.
I trust my 3 year old daughter with my CD's.
They learn if you teach you them properly. . .
Mark Wood
>>Here's my $0.02 on this one. The 16 bit systems are the cheapest of
all
>>of the systems you mentioned. That makes them more attractive
Christmas
>>gifts from parents who don't know better. And since there seem to be
>>plenty of those people around, you can almost bet that these sytems
will
>>be the biggest sellers. After all, the Saturn is like $300(?), and a
>>Genesis is like about $100something(?). Which do you think a parent
is
>>more willing to buy? (BTW, please don't flame me for being wrong
about
>>the prices. I know I'm somewhere in the ballpark with them but I
haven't
>>bought a system in a few years.)
>
>I don't think it's just 'parents who don't know better'. I don't
>think that buying an SNES or SG is necessarily a bad choice for a
>parent with a young child (say under 10 or so) because there just
>aren't any kids games available for either PSX or Saturn.
Sorry, not only kids. My friend at work just bought a Genesis to play
Madden 96 and NBA Live (even Next Gen, notorious for saying only 32-bit
will do, says NBA Live on Genesis is the best basketball sim available
for any system). Plus you can play these games on XBand (only $20).
No other system offers arcade modem play for these games, not even the
PC (sorry, SNES XBand doesn't have NBA Live). Sure, someday, XBand and
the EA sports games will be available, but our logic is, why pay
$300-$400 and wait, when you can pay $100 and have it all now? If you
think Madden 96 or NBA Live are kid's games, I would guess you haven't
played them. They have all of the options that the 32-bit games (like
Gameday and NBA ITZ) don't have--full rosters, strategy, injuries,
create players, etc., don't have yet. This isn't meant as a 'flame'
(or whatever), just as one explanation for why 16-bit systems still
outsell the 32-bit ones : cheaper, and no waiting!
-Skid
Eric Pobirs
Count yourself fortunate. Not to indulge a perent's pride but I'd
venture your child is brighter than most or at least more responsive.
I've seen too many kids who learn only by making mistakes to blame it
on the parents. Some people need to get burned; the parent can only
try ensure it is a minor injury. My nieces and nephews are allowed to
use the VCR but the tapes are inexpensive copies made from Laser Discs
that are not accessable. I once disassembled a worn out tape for a 4
year old as a kind of pre-emptive strike. His curiousity was satisfied
and no good tapes lost. But that doesn't overcome his lack of
coordination. Videotape is cheap and carts are durable. Let them take
the bashing as his skills improve.
Thomas Pancoast
>The JVC X'eye has been getting MORE use than either of my 32bit systems.
>I actually find some of the games to be more enjoyable. I don't consider
>myself a kid either, as I am 18 years of age and in college. I don't
>think your theory holds up. Here's mine. Because a LOT of people traded
>in their systems and 10 games for a PSX, there's plenty of used
>[quality] 16bit titles to go around. When a consumer, like myself, sees
>all the games at such a reasonable price, it's hard to pass up buying one
>of the 16bit systems.
I can attest to that to some degree... I got a Sega Nomad a little while
back for a similar reason... All these great dirt cheap games are hard to
pass up. On the other hand, the 3DO is still getting considerably more
play.
--------------------------------------------------------------
tp...@i2020.net (formerly tpan...@aol.com)
Thomas W Pancoast "An object at rest cannot be stopped!"
Mike Still
>In article <4b9hp8$5...@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Eric Pobirs <nbr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> And how many 8 year olds do you trust with CDs? This is a Nintendo
>>motive that everybody seems to ignore.
>
>-- you can't break one unless you try really hard to do it.. not saying
>that carts aren't durable too, but CDs are nearly indestructible..
>
Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
Mike
--
"Great shot kid! That was one in a million....
That means a thousand people in China could have made it"
-Han Solo
StarWars:A New Hope (modified)
Lawrence Readshaw
Mike Still <mst...@postoffice.ptd.net> writes:
> Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
> scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
> scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
>
> Mike
I tested how a CD handles scratches on several occassions. I took a
couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it all
around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the story
is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
Lawrence
The Downward Spiral
Eric Pobirs <nbr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> And how many 8 year olds do you trust with CDs? This is a Nintendo
>motive that everybody seems to ignore.
What are you talking about? CDs are *much*, much more durable than carts
-- you can't break one unless you try really hard to do it.. not saying
that carts aren't durable too, but CDs are nearly indestructible..
-Orion
Colin Copeland
LPs are nearly indestructible and make damn fine frisbees but they'll play
rather badly after using them that way. The problem isn't breaking CDs,
it's scratching CDs. Once you scratch a CD, it won't play properly.
ken...@ns.net
Readshaw) wrote:
If you do that with a game CD and scratch the area where the game data
is recorded, kiss it goodbye. Even the lose of one data bit could and
probably would render the disk unusable.
The Borg assimilated me & all I got was this lousy T-Shirt!
Big Bad Wolf
>> Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
>> scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
>> scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
>>
>> Mike
>
>I tested how a CD handles scratches on several occassions. I took a
>couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
>hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it all
>around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
>living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
>in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the story
>is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
>play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
>be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
Erm, was this an audio CD or a CDROM? Maybe I should get sample
CDROMs and see if my PC can still execute programs on them ..
--
Keith C. Estanol / k...@netcom.com / Internet Member since 1989
Atari and OS/2 Fanatics unite!
Jochen Scharrlach
> I tested how a CD handles scratches on several occassions. I took a
> couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
> hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it all
> around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
> living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
> in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the story
> is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
> play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
> be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
Sorry, but this is not the same: if the music-CD-player notices that
it can't read parts of the CD, it tries to "guess" (i.e. it
oversamples) what should be there. This is a rather easy thing to do
with uncompressed music data but impossible to do with code or
compressed data (e.g. Cinepak).
Bye,
Jochen
--
------------------------------------
EMail: jsch...@ba-stuttgart.de
or: aco...@ftp.uni-stuttgart.de
------------------------------------
Donald Andrew Simmons
>
>Here's my $0.02 on this one. The 16 bit systems are the cheapest of all
>of the systems you mentioned. That makes them more attractive Christmas
>gifts from parents who don't know better. And since there seem to be
>plenty of those people around, you can almost bet that these sytems will
>be the biggest sellers. After all, the Saturn is like $300(?), and a
>Genesis is like about $100something(?). Which do you think a parent is
>more willing to buy? (BTW, please don't flame me for being wrong about
>the prices. I know I'm somewhere in the ballpark with them but I haven't
>bought a system in a few years.)
Please, pat yourself on the back. You've hit damn close to the truth.
In the store I work in, most of the buyers are parents, who admit that
they know crap about systems. They come in and ask what's hot. I point
out the PSX and the Saturn (we carry the one with VF, so it's nearly
$350). They turn all white and point to the 16-bit systems. "How much
are those?" I tell them (about $120-130 for SNES, $97 for Genesis).
They ask why the difference. I explain. They ask if they still make
games for these systems. I say yes, and point out several new releases.
They try to rationalize the purchase of an inferior system that will be
left hanging in a few months. They pick blindly, and I've done my job.
Now, if we could magically educate every parent in the world as to what's
going on, this would be a different story.
And then I wouldn't have to explain the difference 'tween Saturn and Sega CD.
--Andy
--
Donald Andrew Simmons
>
>> Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
>> scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
>> scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
>>
>> Mike
>
>couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
>hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it all
>around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
>living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
>in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the story
>is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
>play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
>be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
>
You're not running a reliable experiment here. Try rolling over one in a
desk chair. That'll kill one, trust me. The plastic side is damn tough,
but even though lots of little scratches don't hurt much, one deep one
can. Or pretty much *any* damage to the foil side. Try this: find a
tennis shoe that has plenty of sand stuck in the treads. put it on, and
grind your foot on the foil side (with a little loose debris between foot
and CD). NOW try running it. You may not notice much on a music CD, but
data is TOTALLY different.
Or another, more realistic experiment. Stick a CD in a third-grader's
backpack for a week. This is a likely situation for a cart to be in.
--Andy
--
shawn rader
On 22 Dec 1995, Mike Still wrote:
> Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
> scratch on them, and they are un-playable.
This is not true. I remeber last year I rented Ground Zero Texas for
the Sega CD. The CD's and manual reeked of cigarette smoke, and the two
CD's looked like someone had tried to polish them with a belt sander. To
my amazement the game still worked (thanks to the Sega CD's error
correction).
Alot of CD games also have the game code copied onto the CD several
times so that if one part of the CD gets scratched, the code will still
reside at another part.
The original poster was wrong though about CD's being more durable than
carts. Anyone could easily bend a CD with their bare hands, where as
most people would need a hammer to break a cartridge.
Eric Pobirs
Downward Spiral) writes:
>
>In article <4b9hp8$5...@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Eric Pobirs <nbr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> And how many 8 year olds do you trust with CDs? This is a
Nintendo
>>motive that everybody seems to ignore.
>
>What are you talking about? CDs are *much*, much more durable than
carts
>-- you can't break one unless you try really hard to do it.. not
saying
>that carts aren't durable too, but CDs are nearly indestructible..
>
>-Orion
>
What alternate universe are you typing from? A single scratch in
the wrong place can render a CD useless. They may not scratch as
easily as vinyl LPs but they're less forgiving. If a scratch renders a
sector of program code unreadable that's it, you're out of luck. Carts
come in a hard plastic shell which can withstand considerable trauma by
comparison. What would be minor cosmetic damage for a cart is fatal to
a CD.
Here's a little experiment you can try at home: Take your favorite
CD and your favorite cartridge. Choose an object near your game setup
that might accidentally come into contact with the media and use it to
create scratches on both. See which media fails first. Repeat until
comprehension sinks in.
Eric Pobirs
In <4bf459$l...@nntp4.u.washington.edu> law...@u.washington.edu
(Lawrence Readshaw) writes:
>
>In article <4beqda$b...@ns2.ptd.net>
>Mike Still <mst...@postoffice.ptd.net> writes:
>
>> scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
>>
>> Mike
>
>I tested how a CD handles scratches on several occassions. I took a
>couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
>hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it
all
>around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
>living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
>in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the
story
>is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
>play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
>be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
>
>Lawrence
We're talking about ROMs, not audio discs. The error that crashes
a program (it only takes one bit) might last only a fraction of a
second as audio. Although you can get a fatal error on an audio disc
too. I was making a tape for my brother of 'The Wall' when the player
locked up on track nine of disc #2. Ever notice how this sort of thing
usually happens when you're almost finished? The scratch was hard to
identify at first. I discovered from talking to hifi fanatics that
this is often the case. Damage to the protective surface is easy to
spot and will allow the disc to function if it doesn't block the beam
to badly. If a particle gets through to the aluminum platter inside it
can ruin the disc without cosmetic damage.
I woundn't be surprised to see some sort of high speed disc tester
appear in the near future for stores that deal in used software.
Cartridges are fast and easy to verify. If the title screen comes up
its unlikely anything is wrong with it. Testing CDs is another story,
the fatal sector error could occur at any point. Most of the used game
dealers in Southern California won't buy a disc with visible scratches
even though the game might still be completely intact. Equipment that
could quickly verify the readability of the entire disc would be a boon
to dealer and customer.
Anssi Lehtinen
>In article <4beqda$b...@ns2.ptd.net>
>Mike Still <mst...@postoffice.ptd.net> writes:
>
>> Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
>> scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
>> scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
>couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
>hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it all
>around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
>living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
>in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the story
>is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
>play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
>be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
those with computer/console data on them. Even one lost
bit that can't be recovered on a CD-ROM will screw up your
game. On audio CD's it would be damn hard to hear if the
CD's were not entirely unscathed. The worst scratches are
those that go along the tracks. Me and my friends have
gotten quite a few music CD's into a condition in which
some of the more inexpensive players wouldn't play them
correctly anymore.
I'm not saying that CD's get screwed by just looking at
them in a funny way, but carts _are_ more durable. (Not
that I would ever touch a console that uses them, though :)
--
Anssi Lehtinen
Air Warrior: Iceman -=FAF=- #2037
TIP#893
tuffy
: >-- you can't break one unless you try really hard to do it.. not saying
: Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
: scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
: scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
The readable portion of my VF2 disc has TONS of tiny scratches on it.
I've tried cleaning it, so they're definately not just dust or dirt.
I'm probably going to get another disc once VF2 gets really cheap
but the scratched copy has NEVER skipped/froze/locked-up/etc.
Yes, despite all the scratches in the disc, my Saturn reads it perfectly.
Physically, carts are indeed more durable than discs in terms of punishment.
However, if kept in its case and not flung around the room, a CD should
last practically forever. Cart contacts have a tendancy to attract dirt
over time and both the system and every cart one owns will require cleaning.
I know my cart systems turn cart cleaners black with dirt and dust if I
don't clean them off regularly. CD systems aren't going to have that problem.
: Mike
Robert Merritt
Andy,
I was in Toys R Us today. (yes a bad idea) Wel, not too bad. The
video game section had hardly no one in it. (They couldn't pay me to
go down the Barbie isle though!) Anyways, there was a Sega
Representive there giving out Sega Saturn and VF2 buttons. I started
up a conversation with her. She said that the Sega Saturn was the best
thing to ever happen to the Sega CD. The Sega CD is selling wild.
Apparently kids are asking for the Sega that takes CDs and the parents
are getting confused.
Rob M
Mark Wood
>> Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
>> scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
>> scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
>>
>
>I tested how a CD handles scratches on several occassions. I took a
>couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
>hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it
all
>around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
>living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
>in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the
story
>is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
>play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
>be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
>
I think he meant CD-ROMs, not audio CD's. I bought Ecco CD used and it
wouldn't load. It had one scratch in it. I returned it for another
used Ecco CD with no scratches and it played fine.
Audio CD's use tech algorithms that allow them to compensate for
scratches. CD-ROMs contain programs that, if loaded incomplete due to
scratches, will cause the computer running the programs to crash.
Imagine if bits from the program in your computer weren't all there to
load. Your program would crash or have errors.
-Skid
Emp
Took a pen and scratched the top label side. Sure enough, it wouldn't
read. Then I took a *KNIFE* and tried to scratch the bottom of the CD. It
was very hard to get the kind of scratch I got by scratching the top with
a pen. I had heard the label side is more prone to scratching before, but
I wanted to prove it. You wouldn't believe the trouble I had trying to
convince someone else of it. People just believe the bottom of the CD is
what you have to be careful of.
: If youwant to see how a CD handles scratches, you need to scratch up
: the label side. The data side is coated with layers of wax, or
: varithane or something like that, so if you scratch the data side, you
: are only damaging the coating and not the data. But the data itself is
: right on the other side of the label, so if you put a deep enough
: gouge in the label side, you may be out of luck. . .
: --
: 2600, Intellivision, colecovision,
: you name it, I still play it
: To see how far the collection has come, visit
: http://gl.umbc.edu/~ddenen1/index.html
: (Temporarily Down)
Octave Below
>I tested how a CD handles scratches on several occassions. I took a
>couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
>hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it all
>around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
>living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
>in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the story
>is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
>play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
>be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
If youwant to see how a CD handles scratches, you need to scratch up
Mike Still
>In article <4beqda$b...@ns2.ptd.net>
>Mike Still <mst...@postoffice.ptd.net> writes:
>
>> scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
>> scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
>>
>> Mike
>
>couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
>hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it all
>around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
>living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
>in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the story
>is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
>play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
>be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
>
Weird. I've gotten one scratch on one of my CDs and I could never listen
to it again. You must not be using the same CDs as the rest of us.
Mike Still
>> scratch on them, and they are un-playable.
>
>the Sega CD. The CD's and manual reeked of cigarette smoke, and the two
>CD's looked like someone had tried to polish them with a belt sander. To
>my amazement the game still worked (thanks to the Sega CD's error
>correction).
> Alot of CD games also have the game code copied onto the CD several
>times so that if one part of the CD gets scratched, the code will still
>reside at another part.
> The original poster was wrong though about CD's being more durable than
>carts. Anyone could easily bend a CD with their bare hands, where as
>most people would need a hammer to break a cartridge.
Again, I have no idea why the CD should still be working when the underside
looks as if someone used a belt sander on it. I can auure you that if you
played through the whole game, you would eventually encounter some errors.
The loss of one bit of information can destroy the entire program. Not all
Cd-programs are written several times on the same disk. In fact, most don't.
You are very lucky if you got a greatly damaged CD like that to work. But then
again, it was Ground Zero, so maybe you would have been luckier if it didn't
work. Another thing. How come all of the rental stuff at Blockbuster smells
like cigarettes. I rented Virtual Boy last week and it reaked of cigs. I mean,
how many people smoke when they play VBoy? Oh well... I guess I've seen stranger things.
Robert Merritt
>law...@u.washington.edu (Lawrence Readshaw) wrote:
>>I tested how a CD handles scratches on several occassions. I took a
>>couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
>>hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it all
>>around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
>>living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
>>in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the story
>>is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
>>play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
>>be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
>If youwant to see how a CD handles scratches, you need to scratch up
>the label side. The data side is coated with layers of wax, or
>varithane or something like that, so if you scratch the data side, you
>are only damaging the coating and not the data. But the data itself is
>right on the other side of the label, so if you put a deep enough
>gouge in the label side, you may be out of luck. . .
I've been using CD roms since 1989. At no point have a scratched one
to the point of error. Haven't you heard of a thing called "taking
care of your toys"????? This should really be a non-issue people.
Rob M
Dave Glue
wrote:
>up a conversation with her. She said that the Sega Saturn was the best
>thing to ever happen to the Sega CD. The Sega CD is selling wild.
>Apparently kids are asking for the Sega that takes CDs and the parents
>are getting confused.
We'll see what happens when they come rushing back to the returns
counter after Christmas.
Of course, with some questioning, the salesperson might have found
they wanted the Saturn, instead of gleefully dumping old junk onto
them.
Frank Booth
> law...@u.washington.edu (Lawrence Readshaw) wrote:
> >In article <4beqda$b...@ns2.ptd.net>
> >Mike Still <mst...@postoffice.ptd.net> writes:
> >
> >> Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
> >> scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
> >> scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> >I tested how a CD handles scratches on several occassions. I took a
> >couple of old CDs that I never listened to, put them down on our
> >hardwood floor with the data side down, stepped on it and pushed it all
> >around the floor. Needless to say the dirt on the floor scratched the
> >living hell out of it, I mean hundreds of scratches. I put those CD's
> >in my player. They played fine much to my surprise. Moral of the story
> >is: CD's are damn durable. Scratches have almost no effect on a CDs
> >play. In fact a CDs worst enemy is smudges from your fingers. They can
> >be dinged to hell as long as you keep them clean :)
> >
> >Lawrence
>
> Weird. I've gotten one scratch on one of my CDs and I could never listen
> to it again. You must not be using the same CDs as the rest of us.
Sometimes it depends on the CD player though.
I still have the first CD I ever owned, and it shows it's the first
one.. I don't take too good of care of my CD's.. :) On my CD player in
my room it plays fine. On my portable it plays fine, but on my
roommate's it goes from maybe 2:34 in a song to maybe 1:23 of the next
song.. and it actually does it so perfectly you don't even notice the
transition.. and it won't even read on my brother's CD player.
A new CD I got though wouldn't read on my portable because of one
scratch.. just one. Must've been one hell of a scratch.. I think it was
pretty deep though.
--
Bring back the shame of the many for the few
Get on your knees, cuz I'll be coming back to you..
Bring back the pain of an inverse world for two
It keeps me coming back to you...
-Mr. Bungle-
Don't let me die with that silly look in my eyes...
-Faith No More-
shawn rader
On 24 Dec 1995, Mike Still wrote:
> Again, I have no idea why the CD should still be working when the underside
> looks as if someone used a belt sander on it. I can auure you that if you
> played through the whole game, you would eventually encounter some errors.
I *did* play through the entire game. Both disks. The belt sander part
was an exageration of course, but it was covered with scratches. I
also had other CD-ROM's with visable scrathes on them that still work.
The Downward Spiral
Mike Still <mst...@postoffice.ptd.net> wrote:
>Sure, you can't break them in half easily, but get one TINY
>scratch on them, and they are un-playable. You can get a million
>scratches on the outside of a cart, and it won't effect it at all.
Well, some of my CDs have scratches all over them.. and they work just
fine! I got one of those free AOL CDs in the mail last week, and I
wanted to see how well it would stand up to pressure.. scratches did
nothing but increase the access time, but the data got through, and the
disk mounted just fine. Then I very lightly melted part of the disc (on
the outside edge) and it still worked fine. Then I tried to break it by
throwing it against the wall, it took a *lot* of force, but eventually it
shattered and then it was dead :) But I must say from my experience
that CDs are very hard to break...
-Orion
degreeAbsolute
>On Sat, 23 Dec 1995 19:45:00 GMT, rob...@jagunet.com (Robert Merritt)
>wrote:
>>up a conversation with her. She said that the Sega Saturn was the best
>>thing to ever happen to the Sega CD. The Sega CD is selling wild.
>>Apparently kids are asking for the Sega that takes CDs and the parents
>>are getting confused.
I missed the original post, but, Jesus, what a sad state of affairs we
have here if people are getting excited by Sega CD sales, if this is
in fact the case.
>We'll see what happens when they come rushing back to the returns
>counter after Christmas.
Exactly. The parents may be confused, but the kids sure aren't! They
know *precisely* what they want. And they are not going to be excited
about that piece of crap.
>Of course, with some questioning, the salesperson might have found
>they wanted the Saturn, instead of gleefully dumping old junk onto
>them.
Again, right on the money. I know that each store probably has
several people working there who are just Christmastime extra help,
but come on! If you don't know the answer, don't just grab a box that
looks right, find out the goddamn answer!!
degreeAbsolute
Mike Still
Then consider yourself very lucky. The point is, if there is a
scratch on the undebelly of a CD, there is a huge chance that it
won't work anymore.
Eric Pobirs
writes:
>
>The readable portion of my VF2 disc has TONS of tiny scratches on it.
>I've tried cleaning it, so they're definately not just dust or dirt.
>I'm probably going to get another disc once VF2 gets really cheap
>but the scratched copy has NEVER skipped/froze/locked-up/etc.
>
>Yes, despite all the scratches in the disc, my Saturn reads it
perfectly.
>
>Physically, carts are indeed more durable than discs in terms of
punishment.
>However, if kept in its case and not flung around the room, a CD
should
>last practically forever. Cart contacts have a tendancy to attract
dirt
>over time and both the system and every cart one owns will require
cleaning.
>
>I know my cart systems turn cart cleaners black with dirt and dust if
I
>don't clean them off regularly. CD systems aren't going to have that
problem.
>
>
Scratches on the surface aren't the problem so long as they render
too large an area opaque to the reader. A scratch that penetrates
through to the aluminum and ruins the disk can be nearly invisible.
Dirty edge connectors on carts are a fact of life but the problem
is easily minimized. My neighborhood has become annoyingly dusty in
recent years perhaps due to increased traffic. As a result I might be
a bit overconsciencous about immediately returning games to they're
boxes and always keeping a cart plugged into the Jaguar which lacks the
built-in slot cover of most systems. It may be a hassle sometimes but
OTOH its been three years since any of my five cart systems needed a
cleaning.
Estimates vary but CDs will eventually self-destruct all by
rhemselves due to the nature of aluminum.
Eric Pobirs
Merritt) writes:
>
>I've been using CD roms since 1989. At no point have a scratched one
>to the point of error. Haven't you heard of a thing called "taking
>care of your toys"????? This should really be a non-issue people.
>
>Rob M
>
The discussion was based around what kind of media a small child
can be trusted with. I suggested Nintendo was partially motivated to
retain the cartridge format so that parents would not be reluctant to
give a seven year old an U64. But Nintendo would not state this
publicly for fear of being labeled as a child's system.
After reading about SGI's Magic Carpet chipset (which supposedly
shares many elements of the U64 chips) for settop boxes I've recently
begun to suspect Nintendo has big plans for delivering software by
cable, eliminating the need for a drive. The more rumors about the
specs of the 'Bulky Drive' I hear the more I begin to suspect the whole
thing is a cover for what they actually intend. By minimizing the
parts count of the client end the entry price can be kept lower than
systems with more parts.
Of course, Nintendo won't be alone in this. The list of companies
with such plans grows every month. The Sega Channel only scratches the
surface. As better servers become available continuous feeds will
allow a cable game to equal the data volume of CDs and offer networking
support.
This is all supposition based on reports in industry trade
publications and should be read as such.
Darkflight
just...@ix.netcom.com (Philip) wrote:
>M A <30...@student.csi.cuny.edu> wrote:
>>This weeks sales is horrible for a 32bit(64atari) owners!
>
>>1) SNES 9 (DC 2 effective)
>>2) PlayStation 7
>>2) Sega Genesis 7
>>2) 3DO GoldStar 5 sold out
>> 3DO Panasonic 2
>>5) Sega Saturn 6 boom
>>7) Atari 0
Someone a few weeks or so ago posted this... Well I thought I'd take a
moment and give you an example of what EB's sale was in a certain S. Cal mall.
We're a fairly moderate size store, not the smallest in the chain, but decent
enough for the most part. (Of course, our sales could have been alot higher
if we had more products available... Then again we're short on space for
games, yet can't hold enough systems...)
This is from 12/19-12/23
Anywaz-
SNES 2
Genesis 3 (Sold Out)
GameBoys 4 (Sold Out)
3DO (Goldstar) 1 (Sold Out)
3DO (Panasonic) 0
Jaguar 0
Game Gears 2
PSX Core 4
PSX R.Racers 1
Saturn Core 10
Saturn VF 3
Believe it when I say 10 core units were sold. We moved 4 of them in one day.
For those of you who love to cause flame wars-
This is what our manager had to say about PSX and Saturn and sales.
(He is highly unbiased on Video games. Which may seem rare to you,
but I've known him for 3+ years so it's true...)
'PSX is for BRAGGING rights, but the Saturn is the ultimate Christmas Gift.'
Darkflight
dar...@cyberg8t.com
Sonic the Hedgehog / Sega Saturn, the best go here!
stan lobunets
dar...@cyberg8t.com (Darkflight) wrote:
>For those of you who love to cause flame wars-
> This is what our manager had to say about PSX and Saturn and sales.
> (He is highly unbiased on Video games. Which may seem rare to you,
> but I've known him for 3+ years so it's true...)
>
>'PSX is for BRAGGING rights, but the Saturn is the ultimate Christmas Gift.'
For "bragging rights" ? What does it matter if it's Sega or Sony? I returned
my PSX because there were no games I liked. If VF2, Rally and VC were available
on the PSX, I'd keep it. IMO, the rest of Saturn games available are crap (I
don't like sports genre), but these three justify the $300 I spent on Saturn.
Master of Reality
>In <4bifvk$e...@skydiver.jaguNET.com> rob...@jagunet.com (Robert
>Merritt) writes:
>>
>>I've been using CD roms since 1989. At no point have a scratched one
>>to the point of error. Haven't you heard of a thing called "taking
>>care of your toys"????? This should really be a non-issue people.
>>
>>Rob M
>>
> The discussion was based around what kind of media a small child
>can be trusted with. I suggested Nintendo was partially motivated to
>retain the cartridge format so that parents would not be reluctant to
>give a seven year old an U64. But Nintendo would not state this
>publicly for fear of being labeled as a child's system.
If there was a fear of children mis-handling the damn things, then
they could build a stupid little plastic case around the CDs which
would make them just as secure as carts and still be cheaper. No, I
don't think Nintendo lies awake at night in fear of 3 year olds. They
are pretty easy to outsmart if you try.
m.o.r.
"You'll shoot your eye out!"
"So what, I don't really need stereoscopic vision, do I?"
Merry Christmas!
Scott Fitzpatrick
With those releases and the baseball game (yes, i like sports,) the
Saturn is looking better and better. I'm still waiting to see which
system gets to the point that I see 5-6 games I can;'t live without.
Then again, my 3DO has been rocking lately with PO'ed, Prmal Rage,
Starfighter, etc.,.
Later,
Scott
Madden on Deion: "He's as fast as he has to be, and that
makes him the fastest man playing the game."
Robert Merritt
>Good ol' nbr...@ix.netcom.com(Eric Pobirs) wrote:
>>In <4bifvk$e...@skydiver.jaguNET.com> rob...@jagunet.com (Robert
>>Merritt) writes:
>>>
>>>I've been using CD roms since 1989. At no point have a scratched one
>>>to the point of error. Haven't you heard of a thing called "taking
>>>care of your toys"????? This should really be a non-issue people.
>>>
>>>Rob M
>>>
>> The discussion was based around what kind of media a small child
>>can be trusted with. I suggested Nintendo was partially motivated to
>>retain the cartridge format so that parents would not be reluctant to
>>give a seven year old an U64. But Nintendo would not state this
>>publicly for fear of being labeled as a child's system.
>If there was a fear of children mis-handling the damn things, then
>they could build a stupid little plastic case around the CDs which
>would make them just as secure as carts and still be cheaper. No, I
>don't think Nintendo lies awake at night in fear of 3 year olds. They
>are pretty easy to outsmart if you try.
I might be crazy but there is a thing called supervision. Me and my
wife run a daycare. The children can play with a 486 dx2 66 and the
Jag CD. The average 5 year old has no problem with using CDs properly
once they have been told how to handle them. (Those who don't learn
don't get to play the systems)
Considering the gross violent acts in most videogames these days, a
young child should be playing a game system without supervision
anyways.
Rob M
Thomas Pancoast
>rik@ns2 wrote:
>>
>> M A <30...@student.csi.cuny.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >This weeks sales is horrible for a 32bit(64atari) owners!
>>
>> >2) 3DO GoldStar 5 sold out
>> > 3DO Panasonic 2
>
>> The better question is: Who the hell bought the Panasonic 3DO?
>
> Shit, though most of you haven't noticed 3DO has been putting out
>some pretty good apps the last 6 months ..
[ Rest of John's defense of 3DO snipped ]
I could be wrong John, but I think you missed the point. I interpreted the
original post to mean: Since the Goldstar is $199 and the Panasonic is
$299, and they are more or less the same thing, why would anyone spend the
extra $100 to get the Panasonic?
I don't think rik@ns2 was trying to insult 3DO.
--------------------------------------------------------------
tp...@i2020.net (formerly tpan...@aol.com)
Thomas W Pancoast "An object at rest cannot be stopped!"
Vic Afsahi
On 27 Dec 1995, Maxwell Smart, Agent 86 wrote:
> CD or Cartridge ?
>
> The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
>
> 1. There is no load time delay when using a cartridge.
>
>
> Sell you're CD 32-bit consoles and get that NU64 into your hands
<SNIP OF BULLSHIT>
What the fuck kind of logic is this??? Get a fuckin clue you Nintendo
Mario Kart lover. DOnt post this bullshit in the Sony group. Nobody
comes here to talk about shitty U69, so go post this crap elswhere. If
you think an expensive memory limited cartridge is better than the "ocean
on a disc" cheap-ass CD, then so be it. But dont start with this crap.
When the shit hits the fan, the U64 is going to be chopped to bits, just
like the virtual boy.
SMak motha fuckin Dadddy
Mark Phaedrus
Mike Still <mst...@postoffice.ptd.net> wrote:
>law...@u.washington.edu (Lawrence Readshaw) wrote:
>> [The Amazing Indestructible CD stories deleted]
>Weird. I've gotten one scratch on one of my CDs and I could never listen
>to it again. You must not be using the same CDs as the rest of us.
When you're talking about audio CDs, the CD player being used makes a
huge difference; some CD players are much more tolerant of scratches than
others. (The scratch-tolerant ones seem to be the more expensive ones. Go
figure.) Of course, I suppose the size of the scratch probably has something
to do with it too... :-)
There's also a huge difference between music and data--and remember,
most videogame CDs are part data and part music, so it depends on where the
scratch lands. If the CD player hits a nasty scratch on a music CD, the
worst you'll generally hear is a dropout in the music. But if the scratch
damages part of the program code, and that code isn't duplicated elsewhere on
the disk for just such an emergency, you're hosed.
--
\o\ If you're interested in books/stories with transformation themes,\o\
\o\please try <URL:http://www.halcyon.com/phaedrus/Menu.html>, or \o\
/o/anonymous-ftp to ftp.halcyon.com in /local/phaedrus/translist. /o/
/o/ Comments and submissions to this list are always welcome. /o/
Maxwell Smart, Agent 86
The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
1. There is no load time delay when using a cartridge.
2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
to be there for much longer.
4. CD Players have a tendency to need cleaning and maintence
more often.
5. CD Players are more expensive to repair/replace than cartridge
units.
6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
Nintendo have done the right thing by using cartridges on the NU64, and
as for all you who have purchased Sony's, Jag's, 3DO's etc, I pitty you
because I know that my 16 Bit Super Nintendo has better games and better
gameplay, and that the NU64 will blow your pitty little game consoles
of this planet. Those systems are almost obsolete now that the NU64 has
been released, and in a few months, those systems will be comparible with the
SEGA MASTER SYSTEM (MK I) !!!
Sell you're CD 32-bit consoles and get that NU64 into your hands
before jealousy takes your soul and you can do nothing about
Shang Tsung taking over.
Regards
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
! Maxwell Smart, Secret Agent 86 <^> "Missed it !
! RBar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au | by that !
! -------------------------------- " much" !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vincent M. Ferrari
Newsgroups: rec.games.video.3do,rec.games.video.sony,rec.games.video.sega,rec.games.video.nintendo,rec.games.video.atari
Subject: Re: CD - CARTRIDGE Argument finally resolved ****
References: <4b720d$10...@news.cuny.edu> <Shelbyh.819401205@viking> <4b9h49$n...@gti.gti.net> <4b9hp8$5...@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4bdtli$n...@jobe.shell.portal.com> <4beqda$b...@ns2.ptd.net> <4bf459$l...@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <4bqkgp$scd@cdn_news.telecom.com.au>
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
I'll answer every point one by one.
1. Granted, but what can be stored on the cartridge? I can't wait to
see the fmv on the carts (all 2 seconds of it). Even nintendo has a
"bulky" device in the works. They're already conceding that cartridges
aren't going to exist much longer.
2. Cartridges have a longer life span? Well, depends. A good drop
will break any cartridge, but I have cd's with cracks in them that
still work fine on my pc. Neither one are particularly durable.
3. What authorities?
4. People are making a fortune of the cartridge cleaning systems (or
hadn't you noticed?)
5. Sure, but easier to find a place to fix them. I had to have my
8-bit and 16-bit nintendo fixed and it wasn't a picnic. As for more
expensive, take into consideration how often they actually break.
6. Don't forget, cartridges with a chipped connector aren't so hot
either.
As for the systems being obsolete, well, we know that's ridiculous.
The Saturn and the PSX are both expandable so a new machine is an
upgrade away. Remember, the 16 bit consoles lasted 8+ years, but took
4 or so to catch on. I'm not sure too many people, after buying their
32-bit consoles are going to rush out and get the ultra. Some will,
but it isn't going to take hold over night.
Kok Ping Liew
Maxwell Smart, Agent 86 (rbar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au) wrote:
: CD or Cartridge ?
: The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
: 2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
: 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
: of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
: to be there for much longer.
Read:
"The Compact Disc Digital Audio offers the best possible sound
reproduction - on a small convenient disc. Its remarkable performance
is the result of a unique combination of digital storage and laser optics.
No cleaning is necessary if the Compact Disc is always held by
its edge and is replaced in its case directly after playing (music or
games). If the Compact Disc becomes soiled by fingerprints, dust or dirt,
it can be wiped (always in a straight line, from center to edge) with a
clean and lint-free, soft, dry cloth. If YOU follow these suggestions,
the Compact Disc WILL provide a LIFETIME of listening (or playing)
enjoyment."
Sounds familiar? It should! And the last I time checked my EE textbook,
"Microelectronic Circuit" (Sedra & Smith, 3rd ed., 1991), no IC chips
that would be used in your favorite cartridge could claim LIFETIME
operation. NASA has some in their spacecraft that come close, but not
quite. And what is your "authorities" praytale?
Could we please keep these U64 prattles to r.g.v.u64? Or isn't it
available yet? (^_^)
Vo, Charles H.
>CD or Cartridge ?
>
>The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
>
>
>
> 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
> of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
> to be there for much longer.
>
> more often.
>
> 5. CD Players are more expensive to repair/replace than cartridge
> units.
>
> 6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
> cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
> places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
> area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
>
>So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
>Nintendo have done the right thing by using cartridges on the NU64, and
>as for all you who have purchased Sony's, Jag's, 3DO's etc, I pitty you
>because I know that my 16 Bit Super Nintendo has better games and better
>gameplay, and that the NU64 will blow your pitty little game consoles
>of this planet. Those systems are almost obsolete now that the NU64 has
>been released, and in a few months, those systems will be comparible with the
>SEGA MASTER SYSTEM (MK I) !!!
>
>Sell you're CD 32-bit consoles and get that NU64 into your hands
>before jealousy takes your soul and you can do nothing about
>Shang Tsung taking over.
>
>Regards
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>! Maxwell Smart, Secret Agent 86 <^> "Missed it !
>! RBar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au | by that !
>! -------------------------------- " much" !
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
games manufactured on CD will last a long time. For the manufacturer, the
miniscule price of a CD compared to a cartridge with all the components
far outweighs the moral dilemma of having the CD be scratched by the user.
I see Playstation games for around $50 right now. Unless manufacturers for
Ultra 64 games intend to cut their profit for each game a bunch, only a
an affluent group of U64 users will be able to spend the money for these
cartridge games. I don't know how much the games will be for third party
U64 games, but I do know that I can stand to wait 8 seconds or so between
battles in SF Alpha rather than spend a bunch more for some game of equal
quality. However, I guess there are some people with a lot of money to burn.
Eric Pobirs
>
>>>I've been using CD roms since 1989. At no point have a scratched one
>>>to the point of error. Haven't you heard of a thing called "taking
>>>care of your toys"????? This should really be a non-issue people.
>>>
>>>Rob M
>>>
>
>> The discussion was based around what kind of media a small child
>>can be trusted with. I suggested Nintendo was partially motivated to
>>retain the cartridge format so that parents would not be reluctant to
>>give a seven year old an U64. But Nintendo would not state this
>>publicly for fear of being labeled as a child's system.
>
>If there was a fear of children mis-handling the damn things, then
>they could build a stupid little plastic case around the CDs which
>would make them just as secure as carts and still be cheaper. No, I
>don't think Nintendo lies awake at night in fear of 3 year olds. They
>are pretty easy to outsmart if you try.
>
If you look back at the aborted Nintendo/Sony CD add-on for the
SNES you'll see they had exactly that in mind. Essentially a permanent
caddy for each disc. A couple publications also claimed the caddy
would also contain some form of memory for save games. I'd be
interested to know the method they had in mind for that.
Eric Pobirs
Liew) writes:
> "The Compact Disc Digital Audio offers the best possible sound
>reproduction - on a small convenient disc. Its remarkable performance
>is the result of a unique combination of digital storage and laser
optics.
> No cleaning is necessary if the Compact Disc is always held by
>its edge and is replaced in its case directly after playing (music or
>games). If the Compact Disc becomes soiled by fingerprints, dust or
dirt,
>it can be wiped (always in a straight line, from center to edge) with
a
>clean and lint-free, soft, dry cloth. If YOU follow these
suggestions,
>the Compact Disc WILL provide a LIFETIME of listening (or playing)
>enjoyment."
>
>Sounds familiar? It should! And the last I time checked my EE
textbook,
>"Microelectronic Circuit" (Sedra & Smith, 3rd ed., 1991), no IC chips
>that would be used in your favorite cartridge could claim LIFETIME
>operation. NASA has some in their spacecraft that come close, but not
>quite. And what is your "authorities" praytale?
>
Sony fessed up several years ago that their use of the word
'lifetime' was ambiguous. Lifetime of the owner? Lifetime of the
disc? Lifetime of a three toed sloth? Lifetime of Sony? Sony's
longevity claims were challenged by a number of independent sources.
The aluminum used in the disc cannot be considered stable in the long
term. Estimates of when a CD will become unreadable vary from as
little as 10 to as much as 20 years. A few hifi fanatics who were
early adopters tell they've apparently lost discs to old age but also
suggest that the manufacturing techniques have improved. More recent
CDs should last longer but are by no means immortal. This is reflected
in the occaisonal article about the plight of the long term archivist
who are still waiting for something that can be entrusted to last
centuries. OTOH the data they're trying to preserve doesn't include
7th Guest.
My oldest ROM devices are around 18 years old and appear to be
going strong. I once tranferred ROMs to a new board due to a worn down
edge connector. As long the power is tame I don't know of any reason
those ROMs shouldn't still work after another 18 years.
Eric Pobirs
Merritt) writes:
>
>
>>> The discussion was based around what kind of media a small child
>>>can be trusted with. I suggested Nintendo was partially motivated
to
>>>retain the cartridge format so that parents would not be reluctant
to
>>>give a seven year old an U64. But Nintendo would not state this
>>>publicly for fear of being labeled as a child's system.
>
>>If there was a fear of children mis-handling the damn things, then
>>they could build a stupid little plastic case around the CDs which
>>would make them just as secure as carts and still be cheaper. No, I
>>don't think Nintendo lies awake at night in fear of 3 year olds.
They
>>are pretty easy to outsmart if you try.
>
>
>wife run a daycare. The children can play with a 486 dx2 66 and the
>Jag CD. The average 5 year old has no problem with using CDs properly
>once they have been told how to handle them. (Those who don't learn
>don't get to play the systems)
>
>Considering the gross violent acts in most videogames these days, a
>young child should be playing a game system without supervision
>anyways.
>
Was that supposed to read 'should not be playing'?
My experience has been rather different. Are you located near Lake
Wobegan? You know, "where all the children are above average."
You're presuming responsible parents. If that were universally the
case Nintendo would never have been so sucessful with their extension
of the electronic babysitter, TV. The desire for durable media is an
economic concern more than worry over how sad Junior will be when his
toy stops working. I'd much rather see a child tracking Carmen's gang
than jumping on their umpteenth koopa but all too often a child's first
choice is the one that doesn't challenge their literacy. I may be the
family vidhead but I'm also the family bookworm. I worry that the
neices and nephews who revere me as the source of games may never pick
up the Heinlein juveniles I have waiting for them.
Marc Mantione
: As for the systems being obsolete, well, we know that's ridiculous.
: upgrade away. Remember, the 16 bit consoles lasted 8+ years, but took
: 4 or so to catch on. I'm not sure too many people, after buying their
: 32-bit consoles are going to rush out and get the ultra. Some will,
: but it isn't going to take hold over night.
Sorry, but it has been stated many times that both the Saturn and
PS are end systems, with no options to upgrade performance in the way
something like the 3DO designed. The only options the PS and Saturn have
are MPEG adaptors.
T-Bone
"Maxwell Smart, Agent 86" <rbar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au> wrote:
>Path:
Interesting!! But, as I'm sure you know, carts cannot come close to the
storage capacity of CDs, nor are they as cheap. Those eproms in carts are
very expensive! If the big N decides to stay with their huge cart, the rumors
of $100 plus game will be a reality. Besides, the 32 bit systems of today
(Sony & Saturn) are slated for future upgrades. In the end its GAMES not the
media or hardware that runs them!
T>
Mark Phaedrus
Maxwell Smart, Agent 86 <rbar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au> wrote:
>CD or Cartridge ?
>
>The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
>
> 1. There is no load time delay when using a cartridge.
If you use no compression, true. But then you run into that troublesome
"the more I put on a cartridge, the more it costs" problem, which the CD
strangely doesn't seem to have. So you might be tempted to use some
compression to bring the cartridge size down. At which point you run into
a Sad Fact O' Life--data takes the same amount of time to decompress,
regardless of where it comes from. And while compression effectively speeds
up a CD (the time it takes to read and uncompress the compressed data is still
less than the time it would take the CD to read the larger amount of data
there would be if it were uncompressed), it sure slows down a cart. So the
load time is back--not as bad as a CD, but there nonetheless.
> 2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
Cartridges are more durable? Yes.
Cartridges have a longer lifespan? Careful there. Depending on how
they're manufactured or what components are used, cartridges can self-
destruct after a few years--EPROMs can start to lose bits, batteries for
backup RAM run out of juice, etc. A properly-manufactured CD will last much
longer.
> 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
> of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
> to be there for much longer.
I would be very curious to learn the names and credentials of these
"authorities".
> 4. CD Players have a tendency to need cleaning and maintence
> more often.
People have made fortunes in the Nintendo-cleaning-kit-manufacturing
business. As long as you don't leave CDs out in dusty environments, they
only need cleaning very rarely. (The folks at Funcoland may try to tell
you otherwise. Don't let the fact that cleaning kits are a commission item
for these low-paid employees cause you to doubt their sincerity in any
way.)
> 5. CD Players are more expensive to repair/replace than cartridge
> units.
Again, do you have figures to back this up? The one time I sent my
SNES in to Nintendo for repairs, I was charged $45. If I send my Goldstar
3DO in for repairs, I'll be charged $50. Not exactly a wallet-breaking
difference. Admittedly, I'm working from a sample size of "two", but
this is because the SNES is the only game system I've ever had break...
> 6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
> cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
> places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
> area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
Cartridges WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Admittedly,
it takes more of a scratch... :-) (I've seen NES and SNES cartridges
with edge contacts scratched into uselessness--I'm not entirely sure how
the owners managed it, but apparently it does happen.)
>So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
And you've omitted the most compelling arguments of all--that cartridges
are more expensive to manufacture and require much more setup time and
investment to produce (keeping some of those nasty third parties out of the
market), that cartridges force designers to be _selective_ with how they
use sound (instead of just throwing that CD sound around everywhere), that
cartridges largely eliminate that nasty FMV (just think about how much better
a game Wing Commander III would have been if they'd eliminated that tedious
plot development and just kept the bits about flying around shooting stuff),
that cartridges can come in decorator shapes and sizes (letting you show your
brand loyalty by using the special Nintendo cartridge rack, rather than that
nasty ol' standard CD rack), and best of all, that cartridges give
manufacturers an ironclad excuse for price increases ("the rising cost of
memory", don'tcha know)...
Robert Merritt
Yes, it should say "should not". I don't know why, but my writting
skills have all but vanished since I've been on the internet. :-\
> My experience has been rather different. Are you located near Lake
>Wobegan? You know, "where all the children are above average."
No, in fact we have some who appear to have learning difficulties.
(Most of which seem to come from the parents) However the steps in
carfully taking out a CD from its just case and putting it into the
computer or the Jag are not that hard to learn.
> You're presuming responsible parents. If that were universally the
>case Nintendo would never have been so sucessful with their extension
>of the electronic babysitter, TV. The desire for durable media is an
>economic concern more than worry over how sad Junior will be when his
>toy stops working. I'd much rather see a child tracking Carmen's gang
>than jumping on their umpteenth koopa but all too often a child's first
>choice is the one that doesn't challenge their literacy. I may be the
>family vidhead but I'm also the family bookworm. I worry that the
>neices and nephews who revere me as the source of games may never pick
>up the Heinlein juveniles I have waiting for them.
It depends. Yes, Mario is popular with the kids in the daycare.
However Fatty Bear, Putt-Putt, Basic Spelling, and A.J.'s world are
also amoung the most popular games that childern in our day care
CHOOSE to play. So don't give up hope yet...
Rob M
Eric Pobirs
Phaedrus) writes:
>
> Cartridges are more durable? Yes.
> Cartridges have a longer lifespan? Careful there. Depending on
how
>they're manufactured or what components are used, cartridges can self-
>destruct after a few years--EPROMs can start to lose bits, batteries
for
>backup RAM run out of juice, etc. A properly-manufactured CD will
last much
>longer.
>
Production cartridges don't use eproms, they use mask ROMs which
much more stable. Millions of mask ROM manufactured in the '70s are
still in use.
>> 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
>> of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
>> to be there for much longer.
>
> I would be very curious to learn the names and credentials of
these
>"authorities".
>
Examine back issues of any audiophile magazine. The subject comes
up at least once a year.
ccd...@netcom.com
rbar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au says...
>
>CD or Cartridge ?
>
>The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
>
> 1. There is no load time delay when using a cartridge.
At least, no _physical_ one...doesn't stop Nintendo from making you watch
some stupid Nintendo splash screen, though.
> 2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
More durable in what way? If you spill soda into a cart, it's gonna be a
lot tougher to make sure you've got all the smegma out than it will be to
clean a CD.
> 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
> of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
> to be there for much longer.
Authorities? You make it sound like the FBI. Fact is, if a CD is properly
manufactured, the data will last longer than you AND your kids. As long as
the actual disc doesn't oxidize, everything is fine. Note that this is NOT
the case for CD-Rs.
> 4. CD Players have a tendency to need cleaning and maintence
> more often.
Gee, I dunno...edge connectors need to be cleaned pretty often.
> 5. CD Players are more expensive to repair/replace than cartridge
> units.
Okay, I'll give you this one. A CD unit _is_ more expensive as a part than
a CD-unit. On the other hand, it's quicker to replace, since it just plugs
in, whereas the edge connector that a cartridge plugs onto is soldered to the
board. For what that's worth.
> 6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
> cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
> places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
> area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
Are you insane? Are you actually implying that an audio CD with 74 minutes
of music is any less "stuffed" with data than a CD-ROM with 650 megabytes of
data? You've got some serious learning to do. The amount of space that's
used on a CD is directly proportional to the amount of data. More music, more
space. More data, more space. There's a max of about 74 minutes of music on
a CD-ROM, _or_ about 660 megs of data. Thus, a CD with 37 minutes of music is
half-full. And a CD-ROM with 165 megs of data is 1/4 full. Funny how that
works. And yes, you _can_ ruin an audio CD with a single scratch in the right
place, same as with a CD-ROM: It needs to be a circumferential scratch
(meaning that it has to follow the circumference of the disc [although not the
_entire_ circumference]) rather than a radial one (meaning that it's a scratch
that, if extended, would reach from the center of the disc to the edge),
because the scratch not only has to obliterate a piece of crucial data, but
also the associated EDC data which would allow the original data to be
corrected. This is why CD care instructions always specify that when you're
cleaning a CD, you should wipe it from the center outward; if you _do_ scratch
it while cleaning it this way, the scratch will be radial, and radial
scratches aren't all that bad for CDs or CD-ROMs, for that matter. All they
do is _potentially_ slow the transfer.
>So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
Wrong.
>Nintendo have done the right thing by using cartridges on the NU64, and
>as for all you who have purchased Sony's, Jag's, 3DO's etc, I pitty you
>because I know that my 16 Bit Super Nintendo has better games and better
>gameplay, and that the NU64 will blow your pitty little game consoles
>of this planet. Those systems are almost obsolete now that the NU64 has
>been released, and in a few months, those systems will be comparible with the
>SEGA MASTER SYSTEM (MK I) !!!
Actually, get it straight...the Jaguar uses carts. And it's got gameplay
that rivals (and beats) lots of the stuff I've got for the SNES. The real
heart of the matter is this: Nintendo is going for carts because it's easier
for them to control their licensees with carts. Ever since the original NES,
the Nintendo fascists have been putting those stupid CIC chips into their
machines, and I'd be floored if they didn't do that on the U64. Now, don't
get me wrong...there's some pretty decent games using the U64 hardware, but
the ones that are using the playstation hardware are far better. I'd rather
play Tekken or Primal Rage than Killer Instinct, I'd rather play Ridge Racer
or Cyber Cycles than Cruisin' USA, I'd rather play Cyber Sled, T-Mek, or
Starblade than any 1st-person shooter that I've seen come out of Nintendo, and
I also wouldn't mind playing some of the REAL classics such as will be
released on the Namco Museum. You know, games that, if you were good enough,
you could play forever. That's how you beat them. You didn't just kill the
Koopa King and then grab the axe with 000 remaining on the timer so you could
get 5000 extra points...you actually got yourself into a position where you
could walk away from the game for an hour, have a nap, come back, and continue
your game.
Again, don't misunderstand me; I'll probably get a U64 as well when it's
available here. But that by no means forces me to NOT buy a Sony PS-X. About
the only games I won't touch are the 3DO (because I'm just not that impressed
with what I've seen) and the Saturn (because after buying a Master System and
a Genesis having played lots and lots of games, I think I've given Sega their
fair chance, and they just can't cut it).
>Sell you're CD 32-bit consoles and get that NU64 into your hands
>before jealousy takes your soul and you can do nothing about
>Shang Tsung taking over.
What it really seems to come down to here is, you need to stop worrying
about getting other people to get the same game you have. And just so you
know, not every 's' needs to be preceded by an apostrophe, "pity" only has one
"t", "your" and "you're" are _not_ the same, and comparable is spelled with an
"a", not an "i". Next time, I suggest using the cones of silence when you
feel you want to speak...it'll give you a few minutes to consider what you're
saying and come up with an intelligent argument.
-c
B Morphin
strong. I do have life insurance on each one over 10 years just to
cover it's replacement and burrial costs. <:)
It's a waste to purchase expensive silicoln everytime. (Cart)
Expense of 3rd party companies making cart's will be tested. Many 3rd
party Co's feel the CD was a savior of sorts, to go back to carts???
600 megabytes worth or ram cost how many thousand dollars??? Wooh!
CD=<$5.
Why didn't the PSX use a 4 speed, shit they cost a penny more than a 2
speed? This would have also been a huge selling point.
Dumb-dee-dumb-dumb.
CD's make great replacements for Clay Pigeons! Especially "Zamfir plays
at the Apollo".
Both seem pretty reliable, for about every breakdown of one I can say I
had a breakdown of the other.
Speed of a cart is nice, but again it's so wasteful, most people can
live with the load times. Better hardware and programming techiniques
could further reduce this wait. But sheer storage potential of a CD
probably makes up for any wait period.
BH
Aaron Newton aka Abrahim the 42nd KSC
> dar...@cyberg8t.com (Darkflight) wrote:
>
> >For those of you who love to cause flame wars-
> > This is what our manager had to say about PSX and Saturn and sales.
> > (He is highly unbiased on Video games. Which may seem rare to you,
> > but I've known him for 3+ years so it's true...)
> >
> >'PSX is for BRAGGING rights, but the Saturn is the ultimate Christmas Gift.'
I'm sorry, but this is still just an opinion, even if he is a manager of a
store. Why should we put any more stock in what /he/ says than other
people? Because he is a manager? Bah.
--
Real Name: Aaron Newton <*> 1:1
e-mail: amne...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu
WWW: http://www.spd.louisville.edu/~amnewt01
IRC: FigNewton / Founder of IRC channel #toys
Michael S. Smith
: Sony fessed up several years ago that their use of the word
: 'lifetime' was ambiguous. Lifetime of the owner? Lifetime of the
: disc? Lifetime of a three toed sloth? Lifetime of Sony? Sony's
: longevity claims were challenged by a number of independent sources.
: The aluminum used in the disc cannot be considered stable in the long
: term. Estimates of when a CD will become unreadable vary from as
: little as 10 to as much as 20 years. A few hifi fanatics who were
: early adopters tell they've apparently lost discs to old age but also
: suggest that the manufacturing techniques have improved. More recent
: CDs should last longer but are by no means immortal. This is reflected
: in the occaisonal article about the plight of the long term archivist
: who are still waiting for something that can be entrusted to last
: centuries. OTOH the data they're trying to preserve doesn't include
: 7th Guest.
Exactly what is the cause of the CD failing? There isn't supposed to be
any wear on the CD as it is played, so why is it that they eventually
cease to work?
Michael S. Smith (mik...@comtch.iea.com)
"No one can grow with nothing to inspire" -Jim Matheos
Thomas Pancoast
>CD or Cartridge ?
>
>The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
Simple? This should be good. :)
> 1. There is no load time delay when using a cartridge.
Yes, there is... The load time is much shorter on a cart, but the U64 will
have to compress everything to fit it on the cart, and data has to be
decompressed before it can be used. The U64 also only can run at full
speed when it is using the RAMBUS (ie the RAM chips), so even if it is not
compressed, data will still have to be moved to RAM before anything can be
done with it.
> 2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
True.
> 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
> of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
> to be there for much longer.
Actually, I think it is about 15 years, but your essential point has not
been lost. It is a valid problem, but I'm not sure this problem will
impact most people.
> 4. CD Players have a tendency to need cleaning and maintence
> more often.
> 5. CD Players are more expensive to repair/replace than cartridge
> units.
>
> 6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
> cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
> places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
> area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
All valid points, but you are wrong about why music CD's are more resistant
to scratches, but it doesn't really impact your argument...
>So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
Ah, you seem to have forgotten an argument. Let me help you out...
7. Carts hold 8 megabytes of data, CD's hold around 700 Megabytes.
that's almost two orders of magnitude more. While the data on a
cartridge can be compressed so that more can be stored on them,
the same compression techniques can be applied to a CD.
Opps... You seem to have forgotten another argument. I'm sure it was just
a simple over-sight...
8. CD's cost about a dollar to make in large quantities. Cart's cost
something like $15 dollars. CD's are so cheap that manufacturers
and magazines can produce demo disks, so you can see the game
before buying it.
>Nintendo have done the right thing by using cartridges on the NU64, and
>as for all you who have purchased Sony's, Jag's, 3DO's etc, I pitty you
>because I know that my 16 Bit Super Nintendo has better games and better
>gameplay, and that the NU64 will blow your pitty little game consoles
>of this planet. Those systems are almost obsolete now that the NU64 has
>been released, and in a few months, those systems will be comparible with the
>SEGA MASTER SYSTEM (MK I) !!!
(Penis envy, I understand, but this?!?)
>
>Sell you're CD 32-bit consoles and get that NU64 into your hands
>before jealousy takes your soul and you can do nothing about
>Shang Tsung taking over.
How strange... You left out all the positive arguments about CD's. There
are two major possibilities... You are VERY stupid, or you have an agenda.
Are you going to profit if Nintendo does well, or do you fit into the other
category?
Mark Phaedrus
Pobirs) wrote:
> In <4bqqnm$9...@news.halcyon.com> phae...@coho.halcyon.com (Mark
> Phaedrus) writes:
> > Cartridges are more durable? Yes.
> > Cartridges have a longer lifespan? Careful there. Depending on
> how
> >they're manufactured or what components are used, cartridges can self-
> >destruct after a few years--EPROMs can start to lose bits, batteries
> for
> >backup RAM run out of juice, etc. A properly-manufactured CD will
> last much
> >longer.
> Production cartridges don't use eproms, they use mask ROMs which
> much more stable. Millions of mask ROM manufactured in the '70s are
> still in use.
At least back in the Atari days, that wasn't always true;
occasionally EPROM-based cartridges would be released. This was more
likely to be the case for cartridges with smaller "print runs", since the
setup costs of producing a ROM are pretty high.
> >> 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
> >> of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
> >> to be there for much longer.
> >
> > I would be very curious to learn the names and credentials of
> these
> >"authorities".
> >
> Examine back issues of any audiophile magazine. The subject comes
> up at least once a year.
Of course, then we have to be careful to distinguish between "CDs
manufactured eight years ago" and "CDs manufactured today"; they're not
produced in quite the same way anymore, and quality has gone up.
You're right, though; CDs are not immortal. Still, I don't think
that the majority of game consumers are thinking about playing those games
fifteen or twenty years down the road.
Ryan Farisslaw
:Organization: Primenet (602)395-1010
Distribution:
Maxwell Smart, Agent 86 <rbar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au> wrote:
: CD or Cartridge ?
: The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
: 1. There is no load time delay when using a cartridge.
Bzzzt. There is plenty of load time delay. Not as much as CD's maybe,
but watch the ending sequence of MK2 on SNES. If there was no load time,
why don't the background graphics flash by like the arcade?
: 2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
I don't think so. When I used to have an SNES, older games had to be
blown on constantly or cleaned just to work. Even my oldest 3DO CD still
works fine, as long as you put the CD in its case when you're done.
: 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
: of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
: to be there for much longer.
10 years bro. TEN YEARS! Think for a moment. How many ten year old
games are you playing on your NES? Okay, some people do, but most people
don't keep games for that long. Many old NES games don't work either,
and besides, I question the fact that CD only last 10 years. What
`authorities' are you talking about?
: 4. CD Players have a tendency to need cleaning and maintence
: more often.
Not if you take care of them. Sure, if you abuse and misuse a CD player
it will fail, same goes for a cart-based console system.
: 5. CD Players are more expensive to repair/replace than cartridge
: units.
Uhh...So? If you plan to break your cosole often, then maybe cart is for
you.
: 6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
: cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
: places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
: area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
Again, so what? Carts will not work if you break them. Why would you
scratch a CD? Just keep it in its case, and handle them properly. I've
never scratched or had problems with any of my CD's.
: So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
Well, I just argued that CD's are better than carts, so you're wrong again.
: Nintendo have done the right thing by using cartridges on the NU64, and
: as for all you who have purchased Sony's, Jag's, 3DO's etc, I pitty you
: because I know that my 16 Bit Super Nintendo has better games and better
: gameplay, and that the NU64 will blow your pitty little game consoles
: of this planet. Those systems are almost obsolete now that the NU64 has
: been released, and in a few months, those systems will be comparible with the
: SEGA MASTER SYSTEM (MK I) !!!
Spoken like a true blind Nintendo Power Magazine reader. Did you know
that just a while ago Nintendo themselves explained the many advantages
of CD's over carts when they were going to bring out the SNES-CD? Let me
remind you of one advantage: STORAGE! Try getting a full arcade
conversion of Killer Instinct on a cart. I'm talking full music, all
characters, all animation, and all the 3D rendered animations. On a 64
mega bit (8 mega byte) cart even. No, I don't think so. And what about
price? Who wants to pay up to $100 on a single game?? How about
usability? A cart-based system can also be used as ... a doorstop? A
CD-based system can also be used as ... A music CD-player, a photo-CD
player, and even a video-CD player. I agree the NU64 should be
impressive, but its hardly going to blow anything away. Sure, kids like
you will buy it no matter what, but not everyone.
: Sell you're CD 32-bit consoles and get that NU64 into your hands
: before jealousy takes your soul and you can do nothing about
: Shang Tsung taking over.
Well, I can't get the NU64 because its not available! I wouldn't get one
if it was. I'm happy with my 3DO, and I'm sure others are happy with
whatever system they have. You had a few good arguments, but you ruined
your post with your `NU64 is the best, get one or else' crap.
: Regards
: --
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: ! Maxwell Smart, Secret Agent 86 <^> "Missed it !
: ! RBar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au | by that !
: ! -------------------------------- " much" !
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
Undertaker / Halogen Dreams
Ryan Fariss-Law
Brian Lube
> >CD or cartridge?
>
> Frankly, I don't really really care. The only reason I tend to prefer
> Nintendo's long-running cartridge method is that the only games I usually
> buy are RPGs like the Final Fantasy series or RPG-adventures like the
> Zelda series, which require games to be saved. Correct me if I'm wrong,
> but unless you jack up the price to allow re-writable CDs, there is no
> way to save your data on a CD. Admittedly, the batteries in the ROM
> cartridges only last around 5 years, but 5 years is still 5 years. Now
> when it comes down to action stuff like Primal Rage/Killer Instinct/what
> have you, I think the pros and cons between ROM chips in a cartridge and
> optical data on a CD just about even each other out. Nothing to argue
> about, really.
>
Don't forget that all the CD systems have an area of RAM for save games
anyways. Thus games like Lunar, Lunar2, Snatcher and Popful Mail for the
Sega CD can save information.
--
--
Education is the ability to listen Brian D. Lube
to almost anything without losing bl...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu
your temper or your self-confidence. http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~blube/
-- Robert Frost
Vo, Charles H.
>'lifetime' was ambiguous. Lifetime of the owner? Lifetime of the
>disc? Lifetime of a three toed sloth? Lifetime of Sony? Sony's
>longevity claims were challenged by a number of independent sources.
>The aluminum used in the disc cannot be considered stable in the long
>term. Estimates of when a CD will become unreadable vary from as
>little as 10 to as much as 20 years. A few hifi fanatics who were
>early adopters tell they've apparently lost discs to old age but also
>suggest that the manufacturing techniques have improved. More recent
>CDs should last longer but are by no means immortal. This is reflected
>in the occaisonal article about the plight of the long term archivist
>who are still waiting for something that can be entrusted to last
>centuries. OTOH the data they're trying to preserve doesn't include
>7th Guest.
>
>going strong. I once tranferred ROMs to a new board due to a worn down
>edge connector. As long the power is tame I don't know of any reason
>those ROMs shouldn't still work after another 18 years.
>
cartridges have built up a layer of dirt or something that prevents
me from playing the game for long periods of time. even with the cartridge
cleaners, the problem wasn't fixed perfectly. however, i do have some
music CDs from a 7 years ago that I just tried out. after i blew the dust
off their jewel cases, they played perfectly. i think CD's can last much
longer than 10 years if you just keep them safe when not in use.
do as the label says and it will probably last a really long time.
JAMES MARTIN
Maxwell Smart, Agent 86 (rbar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au) wrote:
: CD or Cartridge ?
: The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
Damn right it is. It's called CD's. Cartridges are the past. period. You
probably own a record player or an 8-track machine, don't you?
: Sell you're CD 32-bit consoles and get that NU64 into your hands
: before jealousy takes your soul and you can do nothing about
: Shang Tsung taking over.
Why would i sell my 3do, when M2 is coming out? NU64? don't think so!
: Regards
: --
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: ! Maxwell Smart, Secret Agent 86 <^> "Missed it !
: ! RBar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au | by that !
: ! -------------------------------- " much" !
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ James Martin
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) http://www.freenet.hamilton.on.ca/
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' ~ab052/Profile.html
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' ab...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca
(il).-'' (li).' ((!.-' Burlington, Ontario
Semaj the $piceman
Frankly, I don't really really care. The only reason I tend to prefer
Nintendo's long-running cartridge method is that the only games I usually
buy are RPGs like the Final Fantasy series or RPG-adventures like the
Zelda series, which require games to be saved. Correct me if I'm wrong,
but unless you jack up the price to allow re-writable CDs, there is no
way to save your data on a CD. Admittedly, the batteries in the ROM
cartridges only last around 5 years, but 5 years is still 5 years. Now
when it comes down to action stuff like Primal Rage/Killer Instinct/what
have you, I think the pros and cons between ROM chips in a cartridge and
optical data on a CD just about even each other out. Nothing to argue
about, really.
[+]=-=-=- Semaj, the $piceman -=-=-=[+]
| MCI Telecommunications |
| NetworkMCI, UK-Online |
| Email to jwr...@pop.uky.edu |
[+]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[+]
Marcus Holmberg
Distribution:
Semaj the $piceman (jwr...@pop.uky.edu) wrote:
: >CD or cartridge?
: Frankly, I don't really really care. The only reason I tend to prefer
: Nintendo's long-running cartridge method is that the only games I usually
: buy are RPGs like the Final Fantasy series or RPG-adventures like the
: Zelda series, which require games to be saved. Correct me if I'm wrong,
: but unless you jack up the price to allow re-writable CDs, there is no
: way to save your data on a CD. Admittedly, the batteries in the ROM
: cartridges only last around 5 years, but 5 years is still 5 years. Now
: when it comes down to action stuff like Primal Rage/Killer Instinct/what
: have you, I think the pros and cons between ROM chips in a cartridge and
: optical data on a CD just about even each other out. Nothing to argue
: about, really.
Hey! Forgot the excellent Sony-solution to allow save games on PSX?
The small plugins that can save lots of games..
//markus
Steve
>
>So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
Steve
If yor precios little Nintendo systems are so great, why are you
here busting OTHER system owners chops? Because your an asshole!
DSmithDC
reasons. 1) CD's hold more data than carts. 2) CD's are cheaper to
manufacture!
Who wants to pay $90 and up for Ultra 64 games?? NOT ME!!!!!
Kiwifruit
>dav...@interlog.com (Dave Glue) wrote:
>>On Sat, 23 Dec 1995 19:45:00 GMT, rob...@jagunet.com (Robert Merritt)
>>wrote:
>>>up a conversation with her. She said that the Sega Saturn was the best
>>>thing to ever happen to the Sega CD. The Sega CD is selling wild.
>>>Apparently kids are asking for the Sega that takes CDs and the parents
>>>are getting confused.
On the same topic, my mother asked me if the Nintendo 64 was like the
Commodore 64. After all, they have the same number in the name, so
they should be about the same power :-)
Kiwifruit: S5g+l+y-z--n+ox-a+u(-)v-j++ f++s+e+
Joe
Nonsense - you discuss several minor points and ignore the major one:
capacity. Most of my favourite games are hundreds of megabytes (and the new
ones getting bigger all the time) and will never fit on a cartridge. I will
consider upgrading from a CD-ROM to a 2 Gigabyte+ DVD-based system when the
time is right, but there's no way I'll ever be downgrading to a cartridge
based system.
Joe
cld
>CD or Cartridge ?
>
>The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
Better look up this word in a dictionary!
> 2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
The connector will wear off the gold-fingers of a cartridge long before
the laser will wear the bits off a CD.
> 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
> of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
> to be there for much longer.
Darn, I'd better listen to the CD's I bought in the early 1980's before
the music disappears!
> 6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
> cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
> places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
> area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
Get that dictionary and look up the _antonym_ of "facts" for this one!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>! Maxwell Smart, Secret Agent 86 <^> "Missed it !
>! RBar...@vtrnmius.telecom.com.au | by that !
>! -------------------------------- " much" !
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've heard that things are "upside-down" in Australia, but come on!
One thing though... your 'sig' is quite accurate!
..I love the newsgroups...
Omid Marghi
In a previous article, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) says:
>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: line174.nwm.mindlink.net
>X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4]
I apologize, I don't mean to continue this Tiring Thread, but I must
reply to this:
If what you are saying is true then you should go buy
movies and not games. <G> Many of my favourate games are no
bigger than 10 MegaBYTES on the P.C., and some as low as 3 MegaBYTES.
Cartridges are very CAPABLE. For example, in the RPG arena, Look
at what FF Series have pulled off on Cartridges, look at all the
Mario Series, Kart as well... There is just no such thing as "CD
is better than Cartridge" or Vise Versa, THEY ARE BOTH a good medium
imho. And Imho, I think that nintendo IS smart to Make the 64 a
Cartridge medium. But don't worry, they are "supposidley" working
on a BULKY DRIVE which is supposed to be 8X faster than the normal
CD speed. So I would guess that is 4X faster than the "2X PlayStation".
But this isn't a Playstation-U64 debate, how CAN there be one without
u64 systems being out to begin with. This CD v.s. Cartridge is really
petty, well, in my opinion anyways.
If you have a Beta Player, and one of your
favourate movies is on Beta, would you REFUSE
to play it because it's not VHS? <just an anology
I thought it may prove usefull!>
Just Enjoy your Games!...
Fare Well.
Callsign: Dimo X
--
|~~~~\ |~~| |\ /| /~~~\ +------------------------------+
| | | | | | `\/' | | | | | ---=-==-=Omid Marghi=-==-=---|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | uw...@Freenet.victoria.bc.ca |
|____/' |__| |_|__|_| \___/ |______________________________|
gui...@ix.netcom.com
>CD or Cartridge ?
>The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
If these are facts, then I'm Richard Nixon....
> 1. There is no load time delay when using a cartridge.
Wrong... Cart-Based Software can be just as long or longer when you have to wait
for decompression.... Decompression is not always necessary on CD's!
> 2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
Chips can be erased by static discharges when the power switch is turned off and
on and off and on rapidly. Carts get stepped on when they are laying around.
Shiny CD's are more likely to be put back in their cases because they "look"
fragile.
> 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
> of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
> to be there for much longer.
TOTAL BULLSHIT!
I'm been listening to CD's since day one. I own many CD's that are in perfect
condition as well over 10 years old!!! THEY AREN'T FRISBEES KIDS!!!
Take Care of Them, and THEY WILL last a long time!
> 4. CD Players have a tendency to need cleaning and maintence
> more often.
A good cd-cleaner will keep it nice and tidey on the inside.
You should already have a lens-cleaner for your Audio-CD unit.
Just run it once through on your Playstation.
Being that the Lens NEVER Touches anything, it's a minor concideration.
Cartridges on the other hand, fit snuggly into the card slot INSIDE the machine.
Renting Games is dangerous with this concideration.
IMAGINE: MK12 for the U64 has peanut-butter and jelly smeared on the inside when
little Bobby Spanks puts it back into the Blockbuster box, and then YOU are the
next person to rent the same game!!!
I ALWAYS have to check my NES/SEGA Carts before I allow them to go INSIDE my
consoles. For CD's, all I do is give it a quick glance over and a rub.
I've literally had to SCRUB Cartridges!!!!
> 5. CD Players are more expensive to repair/replace than cartridge
> units.
How much will it have to be to replace your SNES/U64 when you rent a game that
has peanut butter and jelly (Or Worse) smeared all up on the inside of the cart?
> 6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
> cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
> places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
> area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
A Scratch that makes ANY kind of difference, will be a scratch that is the
result of SEVERE Negligence.
Once Again: CD'S AREN'T FRISBEES!!!
With a little care, they will last a very very very very long time.
You know it, and I know it.
If you didn't, you would still be listening to vinyl.
>So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
>Nintendo have done the right thing by using cartridges on the NU64, and
>as for all you who have purchased Sony's, Jag's, 3DO's etc, I pitty you
>because I know that my 16 Bit Super Nintendo has better games and better
>gameplay, and that the NU64 will blow your pitty little game consoles
>of this planet. Those systems are almost obsolete now that the NU64 has
>been released, and in a few months, those systems will be comparible with the
>SEGA MASTER SYSTEM (MK I) !!!
>Sell you're CD 32-bit consoles and get that NU64 into your hands
>before jealousy takes your soul and you can do nothing about
>Shang Tsung taking over.
The U64 sounds like a good peice of hardware, and I have supported it in other
forums. But Nintendos decision to go Cart-Based is STUPID!!!
Stupid, because third party developers are going to be the ones with the great
games and THEY WILL NOT be supporting the U64 if it means they will have to
sacrifice profits for production costs. Not when the M2 is CD Based and just as
advanced as the U64.
CD's cost less than $1.00 a peice to manufacture
and it's getting to the point that each new title costs aroung $1million to
produce. With the growing demand for quality software, companies are going to be
forced to turn AWAY from Nintendo, in order to make a profit.
Nintendo will be killing themselves if they sink everything into a Cart-Only
Unit.
Patrick Deupree
What the hell. I'll add my two cents to the NUMEROUS posts this
insightful article will yield in reply:
> 1. There is no load time delay when using a cartridge.
There is load time delay in using cartridge's, though it is
significantly less than that of a CD. But I figured I would set
things straight and say that there IS a load time delay.
> 2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
Given the hassles I've had and seen regarding oxidation on the fingers
of the cart, and wear and tear on those fingers given repeated
insertion and removal of said cart, I would research this one a bit.
> 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
> of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
> to be there for much longer.
I have news for you. Silicon also has a lifespan and micro circuitry
will not last forever either. There is just as much chance that your
cart won't work after 10 years as there is that the CD won't work.
> 4. CD Players have a tendency to need cleaning and maintence
> more often.
Cart slots have a tendency to need cleaning and maintenance just as
much as a CD player. I have a CD ROM drive that works just fine and
it hasn't been cleaned in three years. I have a CD player that hasn't
been cleaned in 4. Just don't eat crackers over your CD player and
keep the lid closed and you shouldn't have a problem.
> 5. CD Players are more expensive to repair/replace than cartridge
> units.
Yeah. Cartridge units are just thrown away and replaced because it's
more economical to replace an entire circuit board than it is to fix
a chip.
> 6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
> cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
> places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
> area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
You are way off base here. The typical game CD for a Saturn or
Playstation game probably has 75% of the CD used for CD audio for the
game. Track 1 of a CD-ROM (e.g. the innermost track) is used to store
data. Tracks 2 through 99 are used to store CD audio.
>So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
>Nintendo have done the right thing by using cartridges on the NU64, and
>as for all you who have purchased Sony's, Jag's, 3DO's etc, I pitty you
>because I know that my 16 Bit Super Nintendo has better games and better
>gameplay, and that the NU64 will blow your pitty little game consoles
>of this planet. Those systems are almost obsolete now that the NU64 has
>been released, and in a few months, those systems will be comparible with the
>SEGA MASTER SYSTEM (MK I) !!!
I'll tell you what. When I see the U64 come out with a game that has
graphics like Virtua Fighter 2 that use the U64 scaling technology,
and that has music that sounds as good as VF2 I'll be down there at
the store with credit card in hand. Until then, I'm sitting back and
having fun playing my Saturn (that I will have been playing for a year
before the U64 is ever released), and my Playstation, and my Genesis
and my SNES.
You can deal in future "promises". I'll deal in current reality.
Craig Taranto
> manufactured eight years ago" and "CDs manufactured today"; they're not
> produced in quite the same way anymore, and quality has gone up.
> You're right, though; CDs are not immortal. Still, I don't think
> that the majority of game consumers are thinking about playing those games
> fifteen or twenty years down the road.
I recently purchased an HP 4020i CD-R. In the manual, it stats the HP
manufactured Recordable CD's have a shelf life of "at least 100 years". It seems
that the quality of CD's have come a very long way.
-Craig
Eric Pobirs
<jwr...@pop.uky.edu> writes:
>
>>CD or cartridge?
>
>Frankly, I don't really really care. The only reason I tend to prefer
>Nintendo's long-running cartridge method is that the only games I
usually
>buy are RPGs like the Final Fantasy series or RPG-adventures like the
>Zelda series, which require games to be saved. Correct me if I'm
wrong,
>but unless you jack up the price to allow re-writable CDs, there is no
>way to save your data on a CD. Admittedly, the batteries in the ROM
>cartridges only last around 5 years, but 5 years is still 5 years.
Now
>when it comes down to action stuff like Primal Rage/Killer
Instinct/what
>have you, I think the pros and cons between ROM chips in a cartridge
and
>optical data on a CD just about even each other out. Nothing to argue
>about, really.
Gosh, this comes as a huge surprise to those of us who played RPGs
on the Turbo-CD and Sega CD.
Every CD based system has offered either internal and external save
functions, in most cases both.
Tony Chin
> Cartridge based systems will always fall short of CD based systems for 2
> reasons. 1) CD's hold more data than carts. 2) CD's are cheaper to
> manufacture!
Okay, I agree with arguements above and most of the arguements of this
thread (not the original post though), but I will give a point that is a
big positive for cartridges (might not out weight the negatives however).
Cartridges help enhance the system through chips. This is evident in the
Atari 2600, NES, and SNES. These machines have done thing that critics
thought could never be done because of the systems' specs. Remember good
old Pitfall and Pitfall 2 on the Atari 2600, all those colors and great
game play, that won't have been possible without the chips in the carts.
Critics thought Atari 2600 would only have Pong-like graphics. With the
NES, there were those games that were still competing with the Genesis
like the Mario and Zelda. With the SNES, we saw the FX chip that let SNES
do better polygons and the Donkey Kong Country series (although that may
be done with progamming and not chips).
Can CD enchance a systems' hardware? Maybe with genius programmers and
alot of space on the CD, but its easier to do with chips. This is the
reason why Nintendo President Mr. Yamauchi wants to keep the cartridge
format (this is the good reason, the bad is he want to make a killing off
the carts).
T.C.
Eric Pobirs
writes:
>
>Eric Pobirs (nbr...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Sony fessed up several years ago that their use of the word
>: 'lifetime' was ambiguous. Lifetime of the owner? Lifetime of the
>: disc? Lifetime of a three toed sloth? Lifetime of Sony? Sony's
>: longevity claims were challenged by a number of independent sources.
>: The aluminum used in the disc cannot be considered stable in the
long
>: term. Estimates of when a CD will become unreadable vary from as
>: little as 10 to as much as 20 years. A few hifi fanatics who were
>: early adopters tell they've apparently lost discs to old age but
also
>: suggest that the manufacturing techniques have improved. More
recent
>: CDs should last longer but are by no means immortal. This is
reflected
>: in the occaisonal article about the plight of the long term
archivist
>: who are still waiting for something that can be entrusted to last
>: centuries. OTOH the data they're trying to preserve doesn't include
>: 7th Guest.
>
>Exactly what is the cause of the CD failing? There isn't supposed to
be
>any wear on the CD as it is played, so why is it that they eventually
>cease to work?
I'm not a chem major type so much of details are out of my league
but apparently the aluminum platter is the culprit. I've seen the word
corrosive used in reference to this. When one usually encounters that
word one may think of movie characters being quickly reduced to
skeletons. In this case the chem guys are referring to a much more
subtle reaction that takes at least a decade to have significant
effects. It doesn't matter if the CD is ever played, the process
begins at the factory. Recent issues of Mix magazine have had some
debates about the problems of aluminum stability.
I don't know if I'll have a hankering for Myst 15 years from now
but I expect to keep playing at least some of the same audio. Out of
600 audio discs theres at least a hundred I'll never listen to again
but I've too much pride in my library to sell them before they die.
OTOH Philips is preparing an improved audio spec for the DVD format,
presumeably the 24 bit quality that is becoming the studio standard.
So, by the time I need to replace my favorite discs there will be some
compensation.
stan lobunets
Tony Chin <kch...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
> Okay, I agree with arguements above and most of the arguements of this
>thread (not the original post though), but I will give a point that is a
>big positive for cartridges (might not out weight the negatives however).
> Cartridges help enhance the system through chips. This is evident in the
>Atari 2600, NES, and SNES. These machines have done thing that critics
>thought could never be done because of the systems' specs. Remember good
>old Pitfall and Pitfall 2 on the Atari 2600, all those colors and great
>game play, that won't have been possible without the chips in the carts.
>Critics thought Atari 2600 would only have Pong-like graphics. With the
>NES, there were those games that were still competing with the Genesis
>like the Mario and Zelda. With the SNES, we saw the FX chip that let SNES
>do better polygons and the Donkey Kong Country series (although that may
>be done with progamming and not chips).
So every time you buy a game you want to pay for a propriatary chip? Unless
Nintendo is gonna give them out for next nothing, it's not a good idea neither
for the developer, nor for the consumer. Do you expect each developer to come
with their own chip designs?
> Can CD enchance a systems' hardware? Maybe with genius programmers and
>alot of space on the CD, but its easier to do with chips. This is the
>reason why Nintendo President Mr. Yamauchi wants to keep the cartridge
>format (this is the good reason, the bad is he want to make a killing off
>the carts).
CDs can't, what do you think expansion slots on the Saturn and Playstation are
for? It's a much better idea to purchase one chip(expansion board) for all of
your games, than to buy it again and again with different games.
Chris Dalla
Actually, the issue is one of oxidation. What happens is, after the aluminum
disc is stamped, it's encased in plastic to protect it from scratches, and
because that process doesn't happen in a vacuum, air gets trapped in the
little pits that make up the data on the disc. Eventually, the oxygen in the
air can (and will) react with the aluminum of the disc, causing degradation of
the data. However, it's important to remember that an awful lot of data has
to be lost before there's a problem, because a lot of the information stored
on a CD or CD-ROM is error correction information that will allow garbled data
to be reconstructed. Also, if you keep your CDs (and CD-ROMs) in their jewel
boxes, they'll last much longer, since exposure to light is one of the things
that aids the oxidation process.
-c
son...@lexmark.com
[...]
CD or Cartridge ?
The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
[...]
Hi!
The poster clearly missed some points:
Cartidges are susceptible to ESD, (Electrostatic Discharge) CD's are
not.
Cartridges have a high variable cost/MB, CDs do not.
Cartridges have longer production times increasing time to
market. CD's do not.
Anyway, probably just some rabid U64 supporter. :) Who knows, the U64
may even be fun, guess we will all have to wait until it is released.
Anyway,
-Chris
tuffy
: Frankly, I don't really really care. The only reason I tend to prefer
: Nintendo's long-running cartridge method is that the only games I usually
: buy are RPGs like the Final Fantasy series or RPG-adventures like the
: Zelda series, which require games to be saved. Correct me if I'm wrong,
: but unless you jack up the price to allow re-writable CDs, there is no
: way to save your data on a CD.
Bzzzt, sorry, that's not how the CD systems do it.
Saturn and SegaCD have internal memory that the games get saved to.
Thus, it's possible to rent a CD game, do really well in it, take it back,
buy the game at the store and continue on, because the data never left your
machine. Plus, on the Saturn at least, one can change the battery when it
goes bad.
The Playstation doesn't have internal memory, but it has memory carts (which
the Saturn has also) and the basic principle is the same.
Sector Slayer
: The answer is simple, lets just state a few facts:
: 1. There is no load time delay when using a cartridge.
There is if the data on the cartrige is compressed.
: 2. Cartridges are more durable and have a longer life span.
Have one of the roms on the cartrige get zapped with static electricity
and make that statement.
: 3. Authorities have revealed that CD's have a lifespan
: of 10 Years average. After that, data is not guaranteed
: to be there for much longer.
What authorities? National Association of Cartrige Promoters? Data
integrity on a CD will last much longer than 10 years. Closer to 100
would be more likely.
: 4. CD Players have a tendency to need cleaning and maintence
: more often.
True
: 5. CD Players are more expensive to repair/replace than cartridge
: units.
Where do you get this? If the cartrige system goes out you'll probably
need to get a new one. CD Players are not that expensive to fix unless
the laser unit goes out.
: 6. CD's WILL ruin if scratched in the right place. Music CD's only
: cover a small area of the CD, therefore, scratching in certain
: places will not matter. As for Data CD's, which cover a greater
: area - forget it, the CD is stuffed.
Gee you're a smart one. Most music CDs are 60 minutes or longer. On a
74 minute CD that leaves very little room. There's some game CDs that
only have 10 megabytes of data on them or less...that leaves tons of room
for scratches.
: So as you see, no-one can argue that CD's are better than cartridges.
: Nintendo have done the right thing by using cartridges on the NU64, and
: as for all you who have purchased Sony's, Jag's, 3DO's etc, I pitty you
: because I know that my 16 Bit Super Nintendo has better games and better
: gameplay, and that the NU64 will blow your pitty little game consoles
: of this planet. Those systems are almost obsolete now that the NU64 has
: been released, and in a few months, those systems will be comparible with the
: SEGA MASTER SYSTEM (MK I) !!!
: Sell you're CD 32-bit consoles and get that NU64 into your hands
: before jealousy takes your soul and you can do nothing about
: Shang Tsung taking over.
Now that I argued I can add you to my kill file and not read your
unintelligent posts.