Cybermorph slow down?
Andrew Fenic
[regarding Cybermorph]
|> Sometimes the mountains don't appear soon enough when you're
|> flying around the landscape. Even when I am flying
|> low, I can often see "too much" of the blue horizon.
This is done on PC games (jump jet comes to mind) to keep the frame
rate high. Total Eclipse on the 3DO does this as well, but gradually
fades in the distant scenery to minimize the impact. Strike Commander
on the PC's uses a massive fog about 10 feet in front of your aircraft
to minimize the need to render distant scenery.
From what I have heard about Cybermorph I'm guessing it looks very
much like Jump Jet, which uses gouraud shaded terrain and animates
fluidly on a 386 machine.
|> If you fly close to a cluster of buildings, it looks like the
|> frame rate decreases drastically. I hope this indicates poor
|> coding instead of poor hardware.
Ouch. How many buildings, and how slow does the frame rate get?
If this is not a coding problem, it raises serious doubts about the
hardware's capabilities. It should *not* be hard to render polygon
buildings with no texture mapping.
michael grisham
There is no slowdown.
MG
--
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
internet: laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Jason W. Nyberg
/>|> If you fly close to a cluster of buildings, it looks like the
/>|> frame rate decreases drastically. I hope this indicates poor
/>|> coding instead of poor hardware.
/>
/>Ouch. How many buildings, and how slow does the frame rate get?
/>If this is not a coding problem, it raises serious doubts about the
/>hardware's capabilities. It should *not* be hard to render polygon
/>buildings with no texture mapping.
/
/There is no slowdown.
Hmmm, one person says "drastic slowdown", the other, "no slowdown."
Anyone else have some empirical evidence?
[From another article, same author:]
/Because it was the only game available, duh. I never said I hate the 3DO,
/and I never professed my love for the Jag, but you do get more for your
/money with the Jag (at this point). $700 is a joke, even if they release
/hundreds of games.
$700 _is_ a joke, compared to the cost of owning "hundreds" of games. 3DO
games are cheaper to manufacture than Jag's. There will likely be more
competition between 3DO title producers than those of the Jag's. Have I
gotten some gears grinding up there?
It's pretty clear that the 3DO price is going to be cut significantly,
possibly very soon. It's possible that a 3DO system could cost less than
the Jag+CD when the latter hits the shelves.
Game Wars:The Next Generation is just beginning. I hear a lot more complaints
from Jag owners than from 3DO owners, and they just came out last week...
/Michael Grisham
/
/I just think it's amusing how 3DO owners try to justify their ungodly
/investment. When it hits $399, I'll think about buying one.
I'll bet you snap up a CD-ROM for the Jag for $250 the day it hits the
shelves, meanwhile 3DO is down to $500 and dropping...
$700 _is_ too much for most people, but there _is_ a market at that price.
--
These are the thoughts and words of Jason Nyberg (nyb...@ctron.com)
"First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow." -Ash
Glen Sescila
Jason W. Nyberg <nyb...@ctron.com> wrote:
>Hmmm, one person says "drastic slowdown", the other, "no slowdown."
>
>Anyone else have some empirical evidence?
I believe the original post said 'lower frame rate', not 'slowdown'.
There is a difference ya know.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jaguar: Even Better Than The R.E.A.L. Thing!" Glen Sescila |||
/ | \
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer and probably are
exact opposites. InterNet: gl...@natinst.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grue
>Michael...@launchpad.unc.edu (michael grishammichael grisham) writes:
>/>|> If you fly close to a cluster of buildings, it looks like the
>/>|> frame rate decreases drastically. I hope this indicates poor
>/>|> coding instead of poor hardware.
>/>
>/>Ouch. How many buildings, and how slow does the frame rate get?
>/>If this is not a coding problem, it raises serious doubts about the
>/>hardware's capabilities. It should *not* be hard to render polygon
>/>buildings with no texture mapping.
>/
>/There is no slowdown.
>
>Hmmm, one person says "drastic slowdown", the other, "no slowdown."
>
>Anyone else have some empirical evidence?
My two cents: I have seen no slowdown. When turning at low (or no speed)
when a lot of things are on the screen, I noticed what seems to be a
sluggishness in the controls (like jamming right on the pad while not moving
and noticing a slight lag time before the screen moves). This is very slight
and may just be my imagination. But I have seen no slowdown, and I don't
sense this lag while the ship is moving.
>$700 _is_ a joke, compared to the cost of owning "hundreds" of games. 3DO
>games are cheaper to manufacture than Jag's. There will likely be more
>competition between 3DO title producers than those of the Jag's. Have I
>gotten some gears grinding up there?
Um, no. Show me CD games that cost less IN THE STORE than equivalent cart
games. Sega CD games do NOT cost less than the carts. If the games are
cheaper to manufacture, then the company is taking more profit. That's the
bottom line. Besides, if your game really, truly needs a CD because the
cart is not big enough, then your development time (in man-hours) is going
to be greater, i.e., your development costs are higher. You need to recover
these. Ah, now some gears are grinding...
>It's pretty clear that the 3DO price is going to be cut significantly,
It is? Why, because so many stores have 3DO's sitting in their back rooms
gathering dust?
>possibly very soon. It's possible that a 3DO system could cost less than
>the Jag+CD when the latter hits the shelves.
Anything is possible. But is it likely?
>I'll bet you snap up a CD-ROM for the Jag for $250 the day it hits the
>shelves, meanwhile 3DO is down to $500 and dropping...
Down to $500 and dropping? We will certainly see about that.
And if that's the case, Panasonic is TOTALLY ripping everyone off right now.
>$700 _is_ too much for most people, but there _is_ a market at that price.
It's just not a big one.
Tom
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Tom Pschar | "Let me 'splain. No, there is no time. Let me sum up." |
|Goodbye Benny. Thanks for making me laugh.| Atari Jaguar: The cat is here! |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Carl Mueller
>Um, no. Show me CD games that cost less IN THE STORE than equivalent cart
>games. Sega CD games do NOT cost less than the carts. If the games are
>cheaper to manufacture, then the company is taking more profit. That's the
>bottom line. Besides, if your game really, truly needs a CD because the
>cart is not big enough, then your development time (in man-hours) is going
>to be greater, i.e., your development costs are higher. You need to recover
>these. Ah, now some gears are grinding...
Of course, this isn't true. Direct comparisons if you like--Batman Returns
CD.. $49.. Batman Returns cartridge $51.. Ecco the Dolphin CD. Spiderman
CD. All cost lest than their catridge counterparts. In fact I haven't seen
a CD than hasn't been priced under $50. The new Sonic CD is only $36. New
carts coming out, 16-bit or more are rediculously priced.. $60 and up.
--
Carl Mueller
Wayne State University
e-mail: ca...@busop.cit.wayne.edu
Internal error 204 at 08E7:1D3F. Please report to Borland.
Scott A. Krotz
Glen Sescila <gl...@natinst.com> wrote:
>In article <2dfqjk...@ctron-news.ctron.com>,
>Jason W. Nyberg <nyb...@ctron.com> wrote:
>
>>Hmmm, one person says "drastic slowdown", the other, "no slowdown."
>>
>>Anyone else have some empirical evidence?
>
> I believe the original post said 'lower frame rate', not 'slowdown'.
>There is a difference ya know.
The truth seems to be somewhere in between. The exact quote is:
Michael...@launchpad.unc.edu (michael grishammichael grisham) writes:
/>|> If you fly close to a cluster of buildings, it looks like the
/>|> frame rate decreases drastically. I hope this indicates poor
/>|> coding instead of poor hardware.
/>
Well, do any other jaguar owners have any comments? Are there LOTS
of buildings on the screen and the slowdown is perhaps justified?
*Is* there any slowdown?
If so, is it a "drastic slowdown" or just a "lower frame rate?" :-)
just curious.
>"Jaguar: Even Better Than The R.E.A.L. Thing!" Glen Sescila |||
> / | \
>My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer and probably are
>exact opposites. InterNet: gl...@natinst.com
Scott A. Krotz
kr...@rtsg.mot.com
Grue
>
>>Um, no. Show me CD games that cost less IN THE STORE than equivalent cart
>>games. Sega CD games do NOT cost less than the carts. If the games are
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>cheaper to manufacture, then the company is taking more profit. That's the
>>bottom line. Besides, if your game really, truly needs a CD because the
>>cart is not big enough, then your development time (in man-hours) is going
>>to be greater, i.e., your development costs are higher. You need to recover
>>these. Ah, now some gears are grinding...
>
>Of course, this isn't true. Direct comparisons if you like--Batman Returns
>CD.. $49.. Batman Returns cartridge $51.. Ecco the Dolphin CD. Spiderman
>CD. All cost lest than their catridge counterparts. In fact I haven't seen
>a CD than hasn't been priced under $50. The new Sonic CD is only $36. New
>carts coming out, 16-bit or more are rediculously priced.. $60 and up.
Ok, perhaps I wasn't clear. Those games were all out on cart long before
coming out on CD, so they can't expect people to pay the same for a game that
has been out for months. SOnic CD is an exception, I hope you realize. And
that price under $40 is only at places like Caldor and stuff, not at
the Boutique, and certainly not at Software Etc.
Jason W. Nyberg
/>$700 _is_ a joke, compared to the cost of owning "hundreds" of games. 3DO
/>games are cheaper to manufacture than Jag's. There will likely be more
/>competition between 3DO title producers than those of the Jag's. Have I
/>gotten some gears grinding up there?
/
/Um, no. Show me CD games that cost less IN THE STORE than equivalent cart
/games. Sega CD games do NOT cost less than the carts. If the games are
The only reason the prices are high now is because Sega and 3DO software
producers have us by the balls at the moment (note that I did not say 3DO
_the company_.) Supply and demand, my friend. Demand is high relative to the
supply, leading to higher prices. Wait until the market settles and the
competition heats up. Then we'll talk... :)
/cheaper to manufacture, then the company is taking more profit. That's the
/bottom line. Besides, if your game really, truly needs a CD because the
/cart is not big enough, then your development time (in man-hours) is going
/to be greater, i.e., your development costs are higher. You need to recover
/these. Ah, now some gears are grinding...
Jag (right now) uses relatively expensive cartridges, with no option for a
CD-ROM (right now) while the 3DO has CD-ROM as standard equip. For a (theo-
retically) identical game, 3DO's will be less expensive to manufacture. Don't
forget that a game with more development time invested in it, therefore sold
at a higher cost, is a higher quality game (ideally) and is _worth_ more
money. At the moment, Jag can't even use the capabilities of CD.
Please note that I am not anti-Jag. My post was in response to someone
who couldn't justify the cost of a 3DO system.
/>It's pretty clear that the 3DO price is going to be cut significantly,
/It is? Why, because so many stores have 3DO's sitting in their back rooms
/gathering dust?
No, because it has been advertised for < $600, and it has only been out for
less than 2 months. There is a difference between a product that won't sell
because it is a piece of shit, and a product that doesn't sell because the
demand is low at its price point.
/>possibly very soon. It's possible that a 3DO system could cost less than
/>the Jag+CD when the latter hits the shelves.
/
/Anything is possible. But is it likely?
I would say that it is very likely.
/>I'll bet you snap up a CD-ROM for the Jag for $250 the day it hits the
/>shelves, meanwhile 3DO is down to $500 and dropping...
/Down to $500 and dropping? We will certainly see about that.
Already halfway there... :) Care to make a bet?
/And if that's the case, Panasonic is TOTALLY ripping everyone off right now.
Basically a pretty smart strategy. Milk the Gadget Freak Market for all it's
worth, then drop prices when that market is tapped out. (This, from a proud
member of the GFM. :)
Say you have 1000 machines to sell. Would you rather sell 100 machines at $1000
and the rest at $500, or all of them at $500?
/>$700 _is_ too much for most people, but there _is_ a market at that price.
/
/It's just not a big one.
I was going to say that myself... :)
Daniel Soohyun Lee
>Of course, this isn't true. Direct comparisons if you like--Batman Returns
>CD.. $49.. Batman Returns cartridge $51.. Ecco the Dolphin CD. Spiderman
>CD. All cost lest than their catridge counterparts. In fact I haven't seen
>a CD than hasn't been priced under $50. The new Sonic CD is only $36. New
>carts coming out, 16-bit or more are rediculously priced.. $60 and up.
I believe that Sega CD's are cheaper because of a lack of demand.
They are also trying to get people to buy SegaCD units. There is more
of an incentive to buy a SegaCD 'cause the games are cheaper. If
there were more SegaCD units than Genesis then CD games would be more
expensive (because there would be more demand for CD's). Why do old
cartridges (NHL Hockey '92 etc., the first SFII cartridge) suddenly
drop in price when new cartridges are released? Because of a decline
in demand for that particular product. Ultimately it is the demand
that determines the price of any product (and the success of any
manufacturer. :-)
Cheers, (Shamelessly plagiarized from the British),
Dan Lee
ds...@leland.stanford.edu
David Liu
The price of CD games IS LOWER than cart games, especially cart games with
lots of ROM.
Example: I'm looking at a few game mags now, and the average price of a Sega CD
is (sampling about 20 titles) is 43 bucks (this is mail order).
The average price of a Genesis cart is still 50 dollars.
So now you're saying, "yeah, but show me a cart which has a CD version which
is cheaper rather than comparing different games!"
So then I respond, "Ecco CD= $40 (Master the Game Company), Ecco cart=$44
(same company)"
And then i add the IMPORTANT points that
1) CD games are just plain better than their cart counterparts (better sound,
more storage for graphics, etc.)
2) it costs more to make a CD game typically because of the larger amounts
of graphics, FMVideo, sound studio recordings, etc in a cd game.
and finally,
3) One of the key advantages of a CD system is that as the graphics
increase in QUALITY (8 bit to 24 bit, for example), and QUANTITY
(70 levels of sonic CD versus 25-ish for Sonic 2), the cart price is forced
to rise since more ROM costs more money, whereas few games could hope to
top 4400 megabits of data.
Also, CDs are much cheaper to press than ordering chips made (according
to an old Pop Sci article).
So now, what were you saying about cd prices being just as expensive
or more expensive than the (lamer) cart?
David
Grue
>Hello, TOM...anyone there?
Just us chickens...
>The price of CD games IS LOWER than cart games, especially cart games with
>lots of ROM.
>
>Example: I'm looking at a few game mags now, and the average price of a Sega CD
>is (sampling about 20 titles) is 43 bucks (this is mail order).
>
>The average price of a Genesis cart is still 50 dollars.
>
>So now you're saying, "yeah, but show me a cart which has a CD version which
>is cheaper rather than comparing different games!"
Um, no, I'm not, because who wants to spend the big bucks for a conversioni
that's been out for months?
>So then I respond, "Ecco CD= $40 (Master the Game Company), Ecco cart=$44
>(same company)"
Came out months and months later. Nothing really new on the CD.
>And then i add the IMPORTANT points that
>1) CD games are just plain better than their cart counterparts (better sound,
>more storage for graphics, etc.)
Not really. Sega CD ports sometimes play music off the CD, and some are
exectly the same (Sol Feace, for example.)
>2) it costs more to make a CD game typically because of the larger amounts
>of graphics, FMVideo, sound studio recordings, etc in a cd game.
Yes, it does.
>and finally,
>3) One of the key advantages of a CD system is that as the graphics
>increase in QUALITY (8 bit to 24 bit, for example), and QUANTITY
>(70 levels of sonic CD versus 25-ish for Sonic 2), the cart price is forced
>to rise since more ROM costs more money, whereas few games could hope to
>top 4400 megabits of data.
But graphics do not increase in quality from Sega cart to Sega CD. Quantity,
yes, and this goes back to #2.
>Also, CDs are much cheaper to press than ordering chips made (according
>to an old Pop Sci article).
This is true.
>So now, what were you saying about cd prices being just as expensive
>or more expensive than the (lamer) cart?
How much are 3DO games? How much are PC CD games? There is a very small market
currently for Sega CD, as others have noted. Sega wants to entice people to
buy Sega CD units. The lower prices are generally on the ports. I never said
they couldn't sell CDs for less, I said they don't. But in the case of very
large games, they really can't. Their development costs are too high.
Tony Clark
In article <2dge6h...@ctron-news.ctron.com>, nyb...@ctron.com (Jason W. Nyberg) writes:
|> t...@cbnews.cb.att.com (Grue) writes:
|>
Lots of stuff deleted
|> Jag (right now) uses relatively expensive cartridges, with no option for a
|> CD-ROM (right now) while the 3DO has CD-ROM as standard equip. For a (theo-
|> retically) identical game, 3DO's will be less expensive to manufacture. Don't
|> forget that a game with more development time invested in it, therefore sold
|> at a higher cost, is a higher quality game (ideally) and is _worth_ more
|> money. At the moment, Jag can't even use the capabilities of CD.
|>
In marketing, there is little relationship between the value of a product and
the cost to produce the product. Henry Ford proved that with the Model A. He
priced the car at a point that he felt it would sell at and then spent
a tremendous anount of effort refining the manufacturing process
to produce cars profitably at that price. The value of a video game is
based on what the public will pay. For example, the cost to produce
Mortal Kombat for Genesis and Super Nintendo was relatively low since the
game was already "developed". This fact did not bring the price of the game
down one cent.
more deleted stuff
|>
|> />It's pretty clear that the 3DO price is going to be cut significantly,
|> /It is? Why, because so many stores have 3DO's sitting in their back rooms
|> /gathering dust?
|>
lots of comments about price reductions deleted
|>
|> Basically a pretty smart strategy. Milk the Gadget Freak Market for all it's
|> worth, then drop prices when that market is tapped out. (This, from a proud
|> member of the GFM. :)
This is actually marketing concept called "skimming", and it works quite
well.
|>
|> Say you have 1000 machines to sell. Would you rather sell 100 machines at $1000
|> and the rest at $500, or all of them at $500?
|>
You should have done your math first. Selling the first 100 machines at $1000
will bring in $100,000.00, the next 900 machines at $500 will bring in
$450,000.00 for a total of $550,000.00 Selling 1000 machines at $500 will
bring in......that's right sports fans...$500,000.00 50K short!!!
There is another concept in marketing called "elasticity". This basically
says that no matter how you price your product you will not sell any more
or less of that product. For example, if you drop the price on a $70,000
Porsche by $5,000 you probably won't sell that many more Porsches. Likewise
if you raise the price by $5k you will most likely sell equally as many.
Most products have some elasticity in their pricing model. I am sure the
3DO and the Jag prices will drop over time. Once the development costs
have been recovered, they can price them pretty much at rock bottom.
stuff deleted
The point that everyone seems to be missing is that the machine that
will win the Video Game Wars is the one with the best games. Beta lost the
VCR wars to VHS, even though it was technically superior (and is stilled
used by professionals). Furthermore you cannot ignore Sega's and Nintendo's
installed base. If I were a developer, I would be putting my games on the
machines that most people have and for now that is Genesis, SNES and believe
it or not 8-bit NES.
Cheers
TC
--
T C
e-mail: tony_...@mentorg.com
Paul Mooser
>|> If you fly close to a cluster of buildings, it looks like the
>|> frame rate decreases drastically. I hope this indicates poor
>|> coding instead of poor hardware.
In reply, and...@meaddata.com (Andrew Fenic) writes:
>Ouch. How many buildings, and how slow does the frame rate get?
>If this is not a coding problem, it raises serious doubts about the
>hardware's capabilities. It should *not* be hard to render polygon
>buildings with no texture mapping.
Well, the buildings usually seem to be in clusters, and this happens
when I fly in close to a cluster. It isn't horrendous, but I was
hoping for NO SLOWDOWN because they're simple (if large) polys.
I don't know if I can accurately give you an idea of "how slow" it
gets - your best bet would be to just play it. It became slower than
I liked, so I fired some shots at the buildings, and ran away
so they wouldn't slow down my nice view of the landscape anymore. :)
Paul Mooser
This is absolutely untrue. Fly up to a bunch of buildings, really
close. Now, turn your ship. Does it look less smooth? Yes.
If you don't call it slowdown, what do you call it ? An increase
in graphical chunkitude?
Robert A. Jung
>Paul Mooser writes...
>> frame rate decreases drastically. I hope this indicates poor
>> coding instead of poor hardware.
>
>Ouch. How many buildings, and how slow does the frame rate get?
>If this is not a coding problem, it raises serious doubts about the
>hardware's capabilities.
Well, other people have commented that CYBERMORPH does not slow down even
when there are lots of enemies on-screen. Assuming each enemy is reasonably
complex (in number of polygons needed to render), slowdown with a simple
rectangular building probably indicates bad coding rather than system limit.
Just hypothesizin' based on what's been posted,
--R.J.
B-)
//////////////////////////////////////|\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Send whatevers to rj...@netcom.com | If it has pixels, I'm for it.
--------------------------------------+------------------------------Lynx up!
"You weren't chosen because you are the best pilot in the Air Force. You were
chosen because you are the class clown and frankly, you're expendable."
Scarrow
>Um, no. Show me CD games that cost less IN THE STORE than equivalent cart
>games. Sega CD games do NOT cost less than the carts. If the games are
>cheaper to manufacture, then the company is taking more profit. That's the
>bottom line. Besides, if your game really, truly needs a CD because the
>cart is not big enough, then your development time (in man-hours) is going
>to be greater, i.e., your development costs are higher. You need to recover
>these. Ah, now some gears are grinding...
Of course the 3DO doesn't have cartridge based versions of games to price
against. My suspicion is that the strategy behind Sega pricing is that if
they price it lower people will wonder if it's truly better than their
cartridge version ... something for a more expensive machine should be more
expensive, after all. Considering that you're often getting a bigger and
better version of the same game (which consequently cost more to produce)
for about the same price, it really isn't that bad. It's fair market value
that counts though, not how much of that is profit in their pockets.
--
Shawn L. Baird (Scarrow) | "By all means, take the moral high ground --
bai...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | all that heavenly backlighting makes you a
-------------------------| much easier target." --Solomon Short
James L Brookes
>>There is no slowdown.
>
>This is absolutely untrue. Fly up to a bunch of buildings, really
>close. Now, turn your ship. Does it look less smooth? Yes.
I don't know about you, but I define slowdown as when the percieved world
no longer as a whole runs at the same speed as it runs when there is little
load on the system. Thus, if you (for example) stress out the sprite engine,
the frame rate slows and you get jerky movement from various elements of
the world. What you say doesn't sound like slowdown, it sounds like a
limit on the precision of the world being rendered.
>If you don't call it slowdown, what do you call it ? An increase
>in graphical chunkitude?
No, that's what I'd call Crash 'N Burn ;)
--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
| James Brookes | Inet: bb...@cleveland.freenet.edu |
|``What, me worry?'' - A. E. Neuman | jam...@ecst.csuchico.edu |
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Marty Chinn
> In article <2dfqjk...@ctron-news.ctron.com> nyb...@ctron.com (Jason W. Nyb
> |Tom Pschar | "Let me 'splain. No, there is no time. Let me sum up."
> |Goodbye Benny. Thanks for making me laugh.| Atari Jaguar: The cat is here!
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually he just said manufacture and that is true. It costs something
like a dollar to manufacture per cd. As for a cart, you have to pay for
all the chips and circuits involved which will add up to more.
--
drkn...@Garg.Campbell.CA.US (Marty Chinn)
The Land of Garg BBS -- +1 408 378-5108
Ralph Barbagallo
I like that!
--
Ralph A.Barbagallo III_Only AMIGA Makes it Possible!_nug...@genesis.nred.ma.us
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Maybe Atari will do well overseas. Jerry Lewis movies do very well overseas."
Scott Cohen -ZAP!: The Rise and Fall of Atari (1984)
Andrew Fenic
This again raises serious doubts about rendering capabilities. Loss of frame
rate when doing solid fill rectangular polygons doesn't usually occur on
386 machines unless the game is very poorly coded.
|>
michael grisham
You're drunk. The market at that price is too small, and most companies
wouldn't waste their time making games for it.
michael grisham
Why the hell do you guys always forget the biggest plus of cds versus
cartridges? They fly faster and further.
Andrew Fenic
|> In article <2dfqjk...@ctron-news.ctron.com> nyb...@ctron.com (Jason W. Nyberg) writes:
|> >Michael...@launchpad.unc.edu (michael grishammichael grisham) writes:
|> >
|> >$700 _is_ too much for most people, but there _is_ a market at that price.
|> >
|> >--
|> >These are the thoughts and words of Jason Nyberg (nyb...@ctron.com)
|>
|> You're drunk. The market at that price is too small, and most companies
|> wouldn't waste their time making games for it.
You are so clueless. Why do you think so many companies produce games for the
PC market ($2000 for a good system)?
The fact is that 3DO is, at $700, the cheapest true next generation games +
multimedia machine available. Many folks I know have paid well over $2000 for
a comparable PC just for Multimedia + games. The home personal computer market
is huge (I can understand why Atari fans might not realize this given the
pathetic ST sales). Most every good PC games manufacturer has signed up to
produce titles for the 3DO, as well. This is a strong sign that they expect
it to replace the IBM PC as the premier "high end" games platform.
Are you so foolish as to think AT&T does not know what they are doing? Sanyo?
Matsuchita? These companies could buy Atari, digest it, and throw away the
remains without blinking an eyelash.
At $500, the 3DO is a steal. $250 is alot to pay for a glorified SNES, however.
Glen Sescila
>>There is no slowdown.
>
>This is absolutely untrue. Fly up to a bunch of buildings, really
>close. Now, turn your ship. Does it look less smooth? Yes.
Please clarify this whole thing for us. Is it slowdown (this would
make it appear that you are actually moving slower but would retain the
smoothness of the animation) or is it a lower frame rate (this would make
the animation less smooth but you would retain your speed).
Slowdown and lower frame rate are entirely different beasts. In the
future please be more careful with these two phrases and specify which one
exists in the game, or if it is a combination of both. (I would prefer
lower frame rate over slowdown if I had to choose one, to maintain
playability. But that is probably harder to program. How would the program
know how long it is going to take to draw the next frame before it draws
it so that it knows how much movement to apply to each object? Would it
just quickly count the number of polys?)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jaguar: Even Better Than The R.E.A.L. Thing!" Glen Sescila |||
/ | \
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer and probably are
exact opposites. InterNet: gl...@natinst.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grue
>In article <2diflk$g...@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Michael...@launchpad.unc.edu (michael grisham) writes:
>|> In article <2dfqjk...@ctron-news.ctron.com> nyb...@ctron.com (Jason W. Nyberg) writes:
>|> >Michael...@launchpad.unc.edu (michael grishammichael grisham) writes:
>|> >
>|> >$700 _is_ too much for most people, but there _is_ a market at that price.
>|> >
>|> >--
>|> >These are the thoughts and words of Jason Nyberg (nyb...@ctron.com)
>|>
>|> You're drunk. The market at that price is too small, and most companies
>|> wouldn't waste their time making games for it.
>
>You are so clueless. Why do you think so many companies produce games for the
>PC market ($2000 for a good system)?
>
>The fact is that 3DO is, at $700, the cheapest true next generation games +
>multimedia machine available. Many folks I know have paid well over $2000 for
>a comparable PC just for Multimedia + games. The home personal computer market
>is huge (I can understand why Atari fans might not realize this given the
>pathetic ST sales). Most every good PC games manufacturer has signed up to
>produce titles for the 3DO, as well. This is a strong sign that they expect
>it to replace the IBM PC as the premier "high end" games platform.
>
>Are you so foolish as to think AT&T does not know what they are doing? Sanyo?
>Matsuchita? These companies could buy Atari, digest it, and throw away the
>remains without blinking an eyelash.
>
>At $500, the 3DO is a steal. $250 is alot to pay for a glorified SNES, however.
Please, I'm curious, list for me the hardware in the 3DO that is more powerful
than the Jaguar hardware, thus making it a "true next generation machine".
And be specific. It shouldn't be too hard if the Jaguar is a "glorified SNES",
right?
Tom
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Tom Pschar | "Let me 'splain. No, there is no time. Let me sum up." |
|Goodbye Benny. Thanks for making me laugh.| Atari Jaguar: The cat is here! |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Joerg Khalid Bashir
>In article <2diiks$d...@meaddata.meaddata.com> and...@meaddata.com (Andrew Fenic) writes:
>>In article <2diflk$g...@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Michael...@launchpad.unc.edu (michael grisham) writes:
>>You are so clueless. Why do you think so many companies produce games for the
>>PC market ($2000 for a good system)?
>>
>>The fact is that 3DO is, at $700, the cheapest true next generation games +
>>multimedia machine available. Many folks I know have paid well over $2000 for
>>a comparable PC just for Multimedia + games. The home personal computer market
>>is huge (I can understand why Atari fans might not realize this given the
>>pathetic ST sales). Most every good PC games manufacturer has signed up to
>>produce titles for the 3DO, as well. This is a strong sign that they expect
>>it to replace the IBM PC as the premier "high end" games platform.
Well, not really. I don't think that it will replace the PC. But you are
right with the rest. You have to look at the 3DO as more than a next
generation SNES or whatever (which it of course is). I think that instead
of replacing PC's, it will be an option for those people thinking about
PC's for games.
There are plenty of people that come into my store (SNES and SEGA) and
look at the PC games wall and ask how much it would cost for a computer
that ran it all. When I tell them about $2500 ( 486/66 Local Bus 8Meg/
500Meg 2Meg Video, 15" NI Monitor, SB16 and Double Spin Drive) they are
taken back. But they by no means shrug it off. Quite a few regulars have
bought such systems.
I do mention that you can get a system for about $1100
(486/33 Local Bus, 8Meg/170Meg 1Meg Video and 15"monitor) that is adequate
for most everything except CDROM stuff. That seems reasonable to most that
are interested in the games.
The bottom line is that if huge games like the Ultima's, Strike Commander,
Sierra stuff, Dynamix stuff and all the really popular BIG games are ported
effectively to the 3DO, there is a big potential market. Especially for
people that do not already have a computer and want one for all the
Educational stuff and also for all of the more complicated in depth games
on the PC. (then, if they still wanted a computer for writing letters and
doing home finance they could get a $150 286 that runs Word Perfect and
Quicken)
>>
>>Are you so foolish as to think AT&T does not know what they are doing? Sanyo?
>>Matsuchita? These companies could buy Atari, digest it, and throw away the
>>remains without blinking an eyelash.
>>
>>At $500, the 3DO is a steal. $250 is alot to pay for a glorified SNES, however.
>
>Please, I'm curious, list for me the hardware in the 3DO that is more powerful
>than the Jaguar hardware, thus making it a "true next generation machine".
>
>
>And be specific. It shouldn't be too hard if the Jaguar is a "glorified SNES",
>right?
>
I posted the hardware a while ago, but if you want a decent description,
with diagrams and everything, look in the current issue of Popular Science.
-Joerg
Joerg Khalid Bashir
>>produce titles for the 3DO, as well. This is a strong sign that they expect
Absolutely true. All of the Putt putt and Fatty Bear stuff has come
within a few days of the PC CD-ROM version. Usually the 3DO stuff has come
out before the PC stuff.
I will assume that the same will be true for games currently starting
developement for the PC or Mac. Supposedly it is VERY easy to do a port to
3DO from those platforms.
A lot of the pre-release announcements we get from game companies on
specific titles have a section in the lower right for hardware support.
80% of the CD-ROM titles have a list like this. (Quicken on CD-ROM was one
of the 20%) :-)
IBM CD-ROM
..... ..
.....
..... (hardware requirements)
MAC CD-ROM
.....
....
...... ditto
3DO Multiplayer
They seem to treat it as just another platform.
Larry Richardson
|> In article <2diflk$g...@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Michael...@launchpad.unc.edu (michael grisham) writes:
|> |> You're drunk. The market at that price is too small, and most companies
|> |> wouldn't waste their time making games for it.
|>
|> You are so clueless. Why do you think so many companies produce games for the
|> PC market ($2000 for a good system)?
|>
|> The fact is that 3DO is, at $700, the cheapest true next generation games +
|> multimedia machine available. Many folks I know have paid well over $2000 for
|> a comparable PC just for Multimedia + games. The home personal computer market
[other irrelevant opinions deleted]
You have made one good point here, that the home personal computer market it
huge. But that is because... they are computers! General purpose machines
that can run word processing applications, spreadsheets, etc as well as
play your favorite games. It is far easier to rationalize the $ to purchase
a $2000 PC (given what it is capable of), than a $700 multi-media system.
Producing games for a system that is already sitting in a lot of homes
is a good idea. More platforms, more software sales. That is why there
are so many PC games on the market, not because everyone is buying PC's
for game use only.
Maybe you do know people who have spent big money for a PC just to use it
as a multi-media/game machine, but that is a small fraction of the entire PC
market. If the 3DO is targeting these consumers, then it is marketing to
a fraction of a fraction of potential PC buyers. In other words, a small
group of people.
Larry Richardson
Jason W. Nyberg
/Well I just couldn't resist jumping in on this....
I seriously think that you misinterpreted what I wrote:
/In article <2dge6h...@ctron-news.ctron.com>, nyb...@ctron.com (Jason W. Nyberg) writes:
/|> t...@cbnews.cb.att.com (Grue) writes:
/|>
/
/Lots of stuff deleted
/
/|> Jag (right now) uses relatively expensive cartridges, with no option for a
/|> CD-ROM (right now) while the 3DO has CD-ROM as standard equip. For a (theo-
/|> retically) identical game, 3DO's will be less expensive to manufacture. Don't
/|> forget that a game with more development time invested in it, therefore sold
/|> at a higher cost, is a higher quality game (ideally) and is _worth_ more
/|> money. At the moment, Jag can't even use the capabilities of CD.
/|>
/
/In marketing, there is little relationship between the value of a product and
/the cost to produce the product. Henry Ford proved that with the Model A. He
/priced the car at a point that he felt it would sell at and then spent
/a tremendous anount of effort refining the manufacturing process
/to produce cars profitably at that price. The value of a video game is
/based on what the public will pay. For example, the cost to produce
/Mortal Kombat for Genesis and Super Nintendo was relatively low since the
/game was already "developed". This fact did not bring the price of the game
/down one cent.
/
/more deleted stuff
I agree. See my (theoretically) and (ideally) comments above? All I was saying
was that the CD version of a game ought to cost less than the cartridge version
due to lower manufacturing costs, and that a game with more time spent developing
it is generally a better game, hence worth more. No specifics anywhere in there.
/|> />It's pretty clear that the 3DO price is going to be cut significantly,
/|> /It is? Why, because so many stores have 3DO's sitting in their back rooms
/|> /gathering dust?
/|>
/
/lots of comments about price reductions deleted
/
/|>
/|> Basically a pretty smart strategy. Milk the Gadget Freak Market for all it's
/|> worth, then drop prices when that market is tapped out. (This, from a proud
/|> member of the GFM. :)
/
/This is actually marketing concept called "skimming", and it works quite
/well.
They got my $$$ :)
/|> Say you have 1000 machines to sell. Would you rather sell 100 machines at $1000
/|> and the rest at $500, or all of them at $500?
/|>
/
/You should have done your math first. Selling the first 100 machines at $1000
/will bring in $100,000.00, the next 900 machines at $500 will bring in
/$450,000.00 for a total of $550,000.00 Selling 1000 machines at $500 will
/bring in......that's right sports fans...$500,000.00 50K short!!!
No kidding... I'd rather sell the first 100 at $1000. Misinterpretation...
/There is another concept in marketing called "elasticity". This basically
/says that no matter how you price your product you will not sell any more
/or less of that product. For example, if you drop the price on a $70,000
/Porsche by $5,000 you probably won't sell that many more Porsches. Likewise
/if you raise the price by $5k you will most likely sell equally as many.
/Most products have some elasticity in their pricing model. I am sure the
/3DO and the Jag prices will drop over time. Once the development costs
/have been recovered, they can price them pretty much at rock bottom.
These effects will be included in supply/demand models.
/stuff deleted
/
/The point that everyone seems to be missing is that the machine that
/will win the Video Game Wars is the one with the best games. Beta lost the
/VCR wars to VHS, even though it was technically superior (and is stilled
/used by professionals). Furthermore you cannot ignore Sega's and Nintendo's
/installed base. If I were a developer, I would be putting my games on the
/machines that most people have and for now that is Genesis, SNES and believe
/it or not 8-bit NES.
The best games will require the best hardware.
Jason W. Nyberg
/>$700 _is_ too much for most people, but there _is_ a market at that price.
/>
/>--
/>These are the thoughts and words of Jason Nyberg (nyb...@ctron.com)
/
/You're drunk. The market at that price is too small, and most companies
/wouldn't waste their time making games for it.
I'm drunk... I'm gonna go get drunk if I keep reading crap like this.
Damn, don't you read!? Earlier in my article I wrote up a bit about selling
to the Gadget Freak crowd at a high price, then when that market is tapped
out, dropping the price. Remember? What was that term someone used... oh yeah.
Skimming.
They'll sell all they can at $700, then drop the price! Is it so difficult
imagine? It's already happening! The 3DO system is now being advertised at
$600. Maybe not everywhere yet, but it's dropping, and it's only been out
for 2 months.
--
These are the thoughts and words of Jason Nyberg (nyb...@ctron.com)
"First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow." -Ash
Steve Rehrauer
>|> You're drunk. The market at that price is too small, and most companies
>|> wouldn't waste their time making games for it.
>
>You are so clueless. Why do you think so many companies produce games for the
>PC market ($2000 for a good system)?
Because zillions of PCs exist. Were they all purchased primarily to
run games? I really doubt that.
>The fact is that 3DO is, at $700, the cheapest true next generation games +
>multimedia machine available.
That still doesn't guarantee it a large market. I think 3DO has a
lot of uphill marketing to do here, to customers who largely still
have trouble programming their VCRs. "Multimedia" is the 90's
"user-friendly"; beyond games, what does it mean? How do you sell
it? Why (in 15 seconds or less, in small words) is it worth $700?
I sure as heck dunno...
>Many folks I know have paid well over $2000 for
>a comparable PC just for Multimedia + games. The home personal computer market
>is huge (I can understand why Atari fans might not realize this given the
>pathetic ST sales).
(Unnecessary cheap shot, that last.) Sure it's a huge market. But I'll
bet your well-heeled friends are only a small fraction of that market.
I also know people who've bought '486 boxes with good graphics & CD-ROM
drives; most do play games on same, but _none_ bought them _solely_ to
play games.
>At $500, the 3DO is a steal. $250 is alot to pay for a glorified SNES,
>however.
At ~$35,000, an entry-level Mercedes is probably a wonderful car. Funny
how Toyota sells oodles more Camrys at ~$18,000, though. (No quibbles here
if you want to argue that 3DO is a games Mercedes, only if you claim it'll
sell like a Camry or Corolla...)
I recognize that I could be wrong, that my friends and acquaintances are
all sub-humans and/or poverty cases (well, some of them almost certainly
are :-). Surely you must admit that your experiences may also be causing
you to draw invalid conclusions; perhaps the 3DO, irrespective of what it
can do, really is priced too high to sell in volume. Even $500 is too
high IMO, unless CD-Video really catches on and 3DO can hitch a ride on
that.
Understand, I really _like_ techno-toys. I'd love to see the 3DO drop
a few hundred bucks in price, and I'll probably sample what's available
for it a few times in the next year. I do appreciate the objective
reviews and discussion of the various new consoles, for that reason.
--
"I feel lightheaded, Sam. I think my brain | Steve rehr...@apollo.hp.com
is out of air. But it's kind of a neat | /HP/org/chart/says/you/are/here
feeling..." --Freelance Police | Massachusetts Language Lab
Paul Mooser
> Please clarify this whole thing for us. Is it slowdown (this would
>make it appear that you are actually moving slower but would retain the
>smoothness of the animation) or is it a lower frame rate (this would make
>the animation less smooth but you would retain your speed).
I think it would be a lower frame rate. I mean, the game doesn't seem
like "time" passes more slowly - the animation becomes less smooth with
the large poly objects on the screen. Instead of your ship rotating
and turning smoothly and beautifully, it does the same somewhat less so.
> Slowdown and lower frame rate are entirely different beasts. In the
>future please be more careful with these two phrases and specify which one
>exists in the game, or if it is a combination of both.
It is a touchy distinction, and I apologize if I wasn't clear. However,
in my first post, I did state that it was a decreased frame rate.
eunjoon lee
>make it appear that you are actually moving slower but would retain the
>smoothness of the animation) or is it a lower frame rate (this would make
>the animation less smooth but you would retain your speed).
Yeh, slowdown and lower frame rates are different matters technically. But,
it is the same thing that make games look uglier and less realistic.
Ej
eunjoon lee
>than the Jaguar hardware, thus making it a "true next generation machine".
Two things: RF cable that doesn't cause a problem and a pack in game that is
always with the system.
Ej
Steve Lupin
THAT'S IT!!! Sure isn't worth paying $450 more :) :) :)
Steve
Jason Brunken
>Ej
Now that is intelligent... I wish I had a nickle for every stupid post in
this group... I could buy both 3DO and Atari (The companies that is!).
--
=============================================================================
= Electrical Engineers do it with Power,= ora...@iastate.edu =
= Computer Engineers do it with Logic! = I.S.U. Computer Engineering =
=============================================================================
Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
)|> In article <2dfqjk...@ctron-news.ctron.com> nyb...@ctron.com (Jason W. Nyberg) writes:
)|> >Michael...@launchpad.unc.edu (michael grishammichael grisham) writes:
)|> >
)|> >$700 _is_ too much for most people, but there _is_ a market at that price.
)|> >
)|> >--
)|> >These are the thoughts and words of Jason Nyberg (nyb...@ctron.com)
)|>
)|> You're drunk. The market at that price is too small, and most companies
)|> wouldn't waste their time making games for it.
)
)You are so clueless. Why do you think so many companies produce games for the
)PC market ($2000 for a good system)?
Becuase there are a lot of users - not because the system is awsome.
)
)The fact is that 3DO is, at $700, the cheapest true next generation games +
)multimedia machine available. Many folks I know have paid well over $2000 for
)a comparable PC just for Multimedia + games. The home personal computer market
)is huge (I can understand why Atari fans might not realize this given the
)pathetic ST sales). Most every good PC games manufacturer has signed up to
)produce titles for the 3DO, as well. This is a strong sign that they expect
)it to replace the IBM PC as the premier "high end" games platform.
)
Do not people also, just occasionally, do some work on these PC's?
How many people do you know who buy a $2000 machine JUST to play games
- this would be a very tiny minority of the country indeed.
)Are you so foolish as to think AT&T does not know what they are doing? Sanyo?
)Matsuchita? These companies could buy Atari, digest it, and throw away the
)remains without blinking an eyelash.
)
They are also large enough to produce flops without being harmed
drastically. They can afford to gamble.
)At $500, the 3DO is a steal. $250 is alot to pay for a glorified SNES, however.
)
At $500, the 3DO starts looking reasonable. Too bad they cost more.
at $250, the Jaguar (which has almost the same capabilities) looks
like a deal to me.
--
---> Kendall Gelner (ken...@rice.edu)
Bryan Woodworth
>[...]
>Well, do any other jaguar owners have any comments? Are there LOTS
>of buildings on the screen and the slowdown is perhaps justified?
>*Is* there any slowdown?
>If so, is it a "drastic slowdown" or just a "lower frame rate?" :-)
I'd probably say "lower frame rate," but it is compensated for. In the "red
world" (people will know what I mean), sometimes, when turning, it will
pause for a brief second, then it's like stuff comes pouring out of the CPU
and voila! TURBO MODE (for only a brief second, to make up for the brief
second which was lost.) I've experienced it around the huge mountains and
I think that is all..
I really don't know enough about the technology to try to explain this. It
does NOT decrease my (rather limited capacity for) enjoyment of the game,
though. :>
--
bry...@rahul.net a2i network
Glen Sescila
>It is a touchy distinction, and I apologize if I wasn't clear. However,
>in my first post, I did state that it was a decreased frame rate.
Ooops. You are right, you were clear in your original post when you
said decreased frame rate. It was after that when a few ignorant 3D0 owners
started yelling 'SLOWDOWN'. I apologize for blaming you, it is the 3D0
advocates that don't know the difference between frame rate and speed.
Blake Stone
> > at that price.
> You're drunk. The market at that price is too small, and most
> companies wouldn't waste their time making games for it.
Hmmm... just like "most companies" didn't bother producing movies
on VHS or music on CD's because the players came out at around
$1000?
3DO and Panasonic did their homework on this, they KNOW the
market very well and are catering to the same crowd using the
same approach that made both formats described above HUGE
successes.
In fact, VHS was SO successful that the companies focused on VCR
sales are desperately looking for something else that every
household will need... and they think 3DO might be it. In the
same way that VCR's have dropped to the $200 range, the 3DO will
be able to do so... eventually, and slowly, hitting every
consumer price point along the way. In the mean time, the market
that is willing to pay $700 is also the market that is willing to
be patient and wait for game to be released.
Anybody declaring the 32/64-bit wars "won" before a year or two
has passed is counting their chickens MUCH too early.
--
Blake W. Stone | DKW Systems Corporation
Chief Technical Officer | A N[EXTSTEP,eXT[STEP,step,Step]] VAR
bst...@acs.ucalgary.ca |
| ... couldn't have been ME
Douglas Bell
>> > $700 _is_ too much for most people, but there _is_ a market
>> > at that price.
>> You're drunk. The market at that price is too small, and most
>> companies wouldn't waste their time making games for it.
>Hmmm... just like "most companies" didn't bother producing movies
>on VHS or music on CD's because the players came out at around
>$1000?
>3DO and Panasonic did their homework on this, they KNOW the
>market very well and are catering to the same crowd using the
>same approach that made both formats described above HUGE
>successes.
>In fact, VHS was SO successful that the companies focused on VCR
>sales are desperately looking for something else that every
>household will need... and they think 3DO might be it. In the
>same way that VCR's have dropped to the $200 range, the 3DO will
>be able to do so... eventually, and slowly, hitting every
>consumer price point along the way. In the mean time, the market
>that is willing to pay $700 is also the market that is willing to
>be patient and wait for game to be released.
Well, VHS didn't have any low end competitors. 3DO has serveral
competitors that cost 1/7 as much. (SEGA) The VHS market of the
seventies is not the video game market of the 90's. Different price
structure, different market, different competition.
>Anybody declaring the 32/64-bit wars "won" before a year or two
>has passed is counting their chickens MUCH too early.
Ahhh, now this is some very good advice.
Paul Mooser
>In article <2djh0k$p...@shaolin.hal.COM>, Paul Mooser <par...@hal.COM> wrote:
>>It is a touchy distinction, and I apologize if I wasn't clear. However,
>>in my first post, I did state that it was a decreased frame rate.
> Ooops. You are right, you were clear in your original post when you
>said decreased frame rate. It was after that when a few ignorant 3D0 owners
>started yelling 'SLOWDOWN'. I apologize for blaming you, it is the 3D0
>advocates that don't know the difference between frame rate and speed.
P.S. I'm a 3DO advocate, too. So don't point any more fingers. Someone
said slowdown. I don't know WHO. I don't care, either. :)
Bill Pierpont
>From: "Joerg Khalid Bashir" <bash...@gold.tc.umn.edu>
>Subject: Re: Cybermorph slow down?
>Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 19:44:54 GMT
>On 1 Dec 93 18:47:38 GMT, Grue wrote:
>bought such systems.
>I do mention that you can get a system for about $1100
>(486/33 Local Bus, 8Meg/170Meg 1Meg Video and 15"monitor) that is adequate
I've been looking at buying a pc lately and the above is a very good price.
Where could I get a system like this ?
The basic config seems to be 486/33 4meg RAM ,some sort HD from 170 meg up to
250 meg, and 14' monitor, with LB video going for around 1300.00-1500.00
I really would like to know I'm trying to get Santa to bring me one.
Jason W. Nyberg
/In article <2djh0k$p...@shaolin.hal.COM>, Paul Mooser <par...@hal.COM> wrote:
/
/>It is a touchy distinction, and I apologize if I wasn't clear. However,
/>in my first post, I did state that it was a decreased frame rate.
/
/ Ooops. You are right, you were clear in your original post when you
/said decreased frame rate. It was after that when a few ignorant 3D0 owners
/started yelling 'SLOWDOWN'. I apologize for blaming you, it is the 3D0
/advocates that don't know the difference between frame rate and speed.
If this is the pinnacle of your argument regarding the slowdown question,
then I'm not worried about loosing the argument.
If there is a bottleneck in a system which caused the performance of a peice
of software to drop, the software slows down when this bottleneck is filled
past its capacity. The software can deal with this in two ways:
The Ostrich Approach (ignore the problem) With this method a clock in
the program will start to deviate from the true elapsed time, because it is
being ticked at a slower rate. The display of this clock may also slow down.
Account for the slowdown in the program. With this method, the clock
will maintain the correct time, but will be displayed less frequently.
Note that by the display of the clock, I am alluding to the rate of display
of updates to the time, analagous to the frame rate of a flight simulator.
In either case, the program is slowing down.
[Waiting for the stupid argumentive responses from the Atari Advocates...]
--
These are the thoughts and words of Jason Nyberg (nyb...@ctron.com)
"First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow." -Ash
Jason W. Nyberg
//>It is a touchy distinction, and I apologize if I wasn't clear. However,
//>in my first post, I did state that it was a decreased frame rate.
//
// Ooops. You are right, you were clear in your original post when you
//said decreased frame rate. It was after that when a few ignorant 3D0 owners
//started yelling 'SLOWDOWN'. I apologize for blaming you, it is the 3D0
//advocates that don't know the difference between frame rate and speed.
/
/If this is the pinnacle of your argument regarding the slowdown question,
/then I'm not worried about loosing the argument.
/
/If there is a bottleneck in a system which caused the performance of a peice
/of software to drop, the software slows down when this bottleneck is filled
/past its capacity. The software can deal with this in two ways:
/
/ The Ostrich Approach (ignore the problem) With this method a clock in
/the program will start to deviate from the true elapsed time, because it is
/being ticked at a slower rate. The display of this clock may also slow down.
/
/ Account for the slowdown in the program. With this method, the clock
/will maintain the correct time, but will be displayed less frequently.
/
/Note that by the display of the clock, I am alluding to the rate of display
/of updates to the time, analagous to the frame rate of a flight simulator.
/
/In either case, the program is slowing down.
/
/[Waiting for the stupid argumentive responses from the Atari Advocates...]
Just to preempt one of them:
"It's not slowing down, it just has more to do!! Jeez your stoopid!!!"
Given the Jaguar's immense capabilities and the simplicity of the display
(no tex-maps, objects pop in and out of view depending on their range
[reportedly pretty short, even by Atary Advocates]) even bad code should
run very quickly. I wonder where the bottleneck is in Cybermorph?
Wasn't it written by Atari? They ought to know the system pretty well.
Glen Sescila
Jason W. Nyberg <nyb...@ctron.com> wrote:
> The software can deal with this in two ways:
>
> The Ostrich Approach (ignore the problem) With this method a clock in
>the program will start to deviate from the true elapsed time, because it is
>being ticked at a slower rate. The display of this clock may also slow down.
>
> Account for the slowdown in the program. With this method, the clock
>will maintain the correct time, but will be displayed less frequently.
>
>Note that by the display of the clock, I am alluding to the rate of display
>of updates to the time, analagous to the frame rate of a flight simulator.
>
>In either case, the program is slowing down.
There is a third case that nobody has mentioned yet. (Note that I
have not seen this happen yet, I am just completing the possibility list)
Is it possible that there was no dip in performance at all? If you are
flying at a certain speed and whiz by a building, wouldn't the building take
bigger 'leaps' between frames when it is right next to your viewpoint
(camera, or what ever the proper terminology is)? In other words, even if
you maintain a constant frame rate, could objects closer to the viewpoint
appear jumpier than ones that are farther away? If this is a possibility,
a good test might be to fly slowly by the 'problem area' of the virtual
world to see if it appears to maintain it's frame rate.
Just a thought.
Robert A. Jung
>Given the Jaguar's immense capabilities and the simplicity of the display
>(no tex-maps, objects pop in and out of view depending on their range
>[reportedly pretty short, even by Atary Advocates]) even bad code should
>run very quickly. I wonder where the bottleneck is in Cybermorph?
>Wasn't it written by Atari?
Nope. B-) There's the rub; CYBERMORPH is written by Attention to Detail,
an independent software firm. I don't think many people have heard of ATD
before, which means it may be a small/startup company. In any case, "not
knowing the hardware" may be a valid excuse in this case.
(CRESCENT GALAXY and RAIDEN are written by Atari. Let's see if there are
any slowdowns or bottlenecks there)
--R.J.
B-)
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"You weren't chosen because you are the best pilot in the Air Force. You were
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Ken Arromdee
> (CRESCENT GALAXY and RAIDEN are written by Atari. Let's see if there are
>any slowdowns or bottlenecks there)
But aren't these games standard games of types that commonly appear on
16-bit machines? (Especially Raiden). There _better_ not be any slowdowns....
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
ObYouKnowWho Bait: Stuffed Turkey with Gravy and Mashed Potatoes
"There are no good or evil plants. There are only... plants." --Ficus (Quark)
Grue
>In article <rjungCH...@netcom.com> rj...@netcom.com (Robert A. Jung) writes:
>> (CRESCENT GALAXY and RAIDEN are written by Atari. Let's see if there are
>>any slowdowns or bottlenecks there)
>
>But aren't these games standard games of types that commonly appear on
>16-bit machines? (Especially Raiden). There _better_ not be any slowdowns....
Yes, I believe there might be one or two shooters on the 16-bit machines B-).
But at one time or another, they all have some sort of slowdown (at least the
ones I've played.) And 8-bit graphics. No slowdown is a godsend in a shooter.
Robert A. Jung
>> (CRESCENT GALAXY and RAIDEN are written by Atari. Let's see if there are
>>any slowdowns or bottlenecks there)
>
>But aren't these games standard games of types that commonly appear on
>16-bit machines? (Especially Raiden).
Yeah. B-\
>There _better_ not be any slowdowns.
And if there are, Atari is in _deep_ trouble, n'est pas? On the other hand,
they will give an indication of the Jaguar's sprite-handling capabilities.
Steve Lupin
>In article <rjungCH...@netcom.com>,
>Robert A. Jung <rj...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> And if there are, Atari is in _deep_ trouble, n'est pas? On the other hand,
>>they will give an indication of the Jaguar's sprite-handling capabilities.
>
> [stuff deleted]
If you don't care, then just press 'n'.
Some of us care, and all that you are trying to do is start wars.
>David ~ |_|,--' |@,__
>Watters ~ ( )-_______-()`-
>--
>"A true 64 bit chip would have a 64 bit ALU and 64 bit registers. The
>Jag does not. Simply having two 32 bit chips does not constitute a 64
>bit cpu. Having a 64 bit databus does technically allow you to call it
>a 64 bit system if you must, but 64 bit cpus? no way." - Jaguar Developer
And your signature just farther confirms this.
Steve
David Watters
> And if there are, Atari is in _deep_ trouble, n'est pas? On the other hand,
>they will give an indication of the Jaguar's sprite-handling capabilities.
Who in the heck cares about sprites?
I, for one, have had my fill up jumpy-jumpy level games, side scrolling shooters,
and chop-socky clones.
If I wanted more of those, I would by a SNES to go with some other systems I have.
Me... I am ready for the next step which hopefully contains as much 3D, VR oriented
games with multiplayer abilities.
_ ___
Daniel Rouse, Jr.
Ever play Sky Shark, Twin Cobra, Raiden (vertical), or U.N. Squadron
(horizontal)? They all play very smoothly until:
A. You break the intended pattern and cause everything to fire at you
at once and/or fly at you. All the planes/helicopters, plus each shot, plus
your plane/helicoptor, plus your immense firepower is usually enough to cause
some slowdown. Heck, drop a check out the fortress level on U.N Squadron on
level 3--with two players and all that stuff...the game slows down so much that
it almost stalls! Or, let all the tanks come on the screen in Sky Shark, drop
a bomb--and see the screen stagger and crawl to where it almost stalls too!
B. You reach a certain point in the game. Look at Aero Fighters. As
the action gets faster, everything moves slower to make it more dramatic.
C. The game "naturally" slows down because the game designer
intentionally sends so much stuff after you, that the processor obviously
couldn't handle it...but so what! The game desinger wanted to test your skill
with a seemingly insane attack. The "accidental" slow-motion actually helps
you to get out of the attack.
The bottom line is that ALL shooters have inherent slow points. Now,
one shooter that I cannot stand is Silkworm with two players. Slowdown,
jerk-jerk-jerk, too much sent out because the machine doubles everything. The
game does not flow...it labors along from level to level. Now, I do like
Silkworm with only one player though.
--
Signed:
Daniel W. Rouse, Jr.
[Programmer, Percussionist, Roller Coaster Enthusiast, and Video Gamer]
Sophomore, Computer Science
California State Polytechnic University, Pomona (Cal Poly, Pomona)
E-mail: CVAF...@CSUPOMONA.EDU
GCS/MU d++(--) p+(++) c++++ l(-) u- e+ m+(---) s !n(-) h f+ !g w--(+) t r !y
Paul Martin Barry
> Who in the heck cares about sprites?
>
> I, for one, have had my fill up jumpy-jumpy level games, side scrolling
> shooters,
> and chop-socky clones.
> If I wanted more of those, I would by a SNES to go with some other systems I
> have.
>
> Me... I am ready for the next step which hopefully contains as much 3D, VR
> oriented
> games with multiplayer abilities.
You just don't get it do you? Do you think the average consumer
is ready for 3D, VR, and multi-player games? NOPE. Do they
want cool looking games that have great playability? YUP.
I'm always amazed when people see demos with a hint of polygons,
they think it's junk, and would much rather sit down and play
Gunstar Heroes on the Genesis. (I thought I'd put in a plug
for Treasure, who I think are some of the best programmers out
there right now.) It may be sad, but it's true. If you keep
living in your dream world of VR, making fun of Atari's claims,
then your dream is going to down in flames. (bad pun.)
I personally like all types of games, from platform, to shooter,
to the coolest texture mapped simulations. If the 3DO discounts
the segment of people that prefer platform, fighting games, and
standard shooters, then they're going to miss the boat.
So far, I haven't seen any indication that they are trying to
get this demographic, whereby Atari has been explicitly going
for this.
Paul...
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