Jaguar 64-bit?? No.

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David Watters

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Feb 27, 1995, 8:45:06 AM2/27/95
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In article <3isgdf$g...@whitbeck.ncl.ac.uk>,
Darren.Wilkinson <Darren.W...@ncl.ac.uk> wrote:

>Q. Is the Jaguar really a 64-bit system?

No.

>A. The question is hard to resolve, largely because the definition of what
>constitutes an "N-bit" system has not been set. Of the five processors in
>the Jaguar, only the object processor and the blitter are "true" 64-bit
>components.

True.

> Because the blitter and the object processor are in the Tom
>chip, by extension Tom is a 64-bit chip.

Logic flaw!!!

> The Jaguar also uses a 64-bit
>memory architecture, according to Jez San of Argonaut Software.

Also according to Jez San, the Jaguar is not a 64bit machine.
"A true 64 bit chip would have a 64 bit ALU and 64 bit registers. The
Jag does not. Simply having two 32 bit chips does not constitute a 64
bit cpu. Having a 64 bit databus does technically allow you to call it
a 64 bit system if you must, but 64 bit cpus? no way." - Jez San

>graphics processor, and the DMA sound processor). Others say the Jaguar
>can be considered a 64-bit system, because 64-bit components are used, and
>the GPU can access 64 bits of data if required. Again, the lack of an
^^^
The GPU is only 32bit.

> and the blitter, which
>does all the 3D rendering, screen clearing, and pixel shuffling, is 64 bit.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ I hope he means the Gouraud shading, as blitters
don't do 3D.

>Where the system does not need to be 64 bit, it isn't. There is no point
>in a 64 bit address space in a games console!

No one said there was.

> 3D calculations and audio
>processing do not generally use 64-bit numbers, so there would be no
>advantage to 64 bit processors for this.

Yeah, uh, okay.

What rez and framerate was Doom in?

--
Life is too short to drive a slow car!
David Watters
wat...@infinet.com The last 10 years have been spent getting PCs with
OS/2 or Windows NT to the point the Amiga was at.

Gerry Mon

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Feb 27, 1995, 12:00:14 PM2/27/95
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In article <3isl12$s...@rigel.infinet.com>,

David Watters <wat...@infinet.com> wrote:
>
>Also according to Jez San, the Jaguar is not a 64bit machine.
>
>"A true 64 bit chip would have a 64 bit ALU and 64 bit registers. The
>Jag does not. Simply having two 32 bit chips does not constitute a 64
>bit cpu. Having a 64 bit databus does technically allow you to call it
>a 64 bit system if you must, but 64 bit cpus? no way." - Jez San

David, it seems you don't know how to read.

Most people here are claiming that the Jaguar is a true 64-bit
_system_ (i.e. machine). No one is claiming that the Jag's GPU is a
true 64-bit graphics processor.

Yet, you then try to refute this claim by providing us a quote from
Jez San himself. However, in this quote, all Jez San is saying is
that he doesn't believe that the Jaguar has a true 64-bit CPU. He is
saying that the combination of two 32-bit RISC processors (DSP and
GPU) does not constitute a true 64-bit CPU.

However, in this quote, Jez San states that the Jaguar _can_ be
considered as a TRUE 64-bit SYSTEM!!!!

This is precisely what everyone here is saying!

--Gerry

Mr. Bruce H

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Feb 27, 1995, 7:03:40 PM2/27/95
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In article <khaley.7...@gmi.edu> kha...@nova.gmi.edu (Kevin Haley) writes:
>
>Please move to group rec.games.video.david.watters.bullshit, where you can
>posts to your heart's content.

Also, don't forget alt.videogames.3d0.sucks.hard, which is an actual group.

Wouldn't want to miss that one too. ;-)

-B (feeling kinda mean today. >:)
--
I promise *nothing*.
-- Apu Nasapimapetalon

Mr. Bruce H

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Feb 27, 1995, 7:11:28 PM2/27/95
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In article <3isl12$s...@rigel.infinet.com> wat...@infinet.com (David Watters) writes:
[more of Dave's crap deleted]

Dave, Peter, and other morons please let me help you get a grip on your tiny
meaningless lives.

The Jag may, or may not, be *REALLY* 64-bit. The fact remains that
Atari has stamped this machine "64 Bits". What are *you* gonna do? Whine
some more about what *you* feel? Probably. Noone, least of which a couple of
net.nerds, is going to get Atari to take back their 64-bit claim. What are
you gonna do, go and take Atari to court, to get them to "be truthfull"
to your views? You could get them to start selling the Jag as a "less than
64-bit" machine. Of course, you can just keep on trying to convience us that
your not just an asshole with an Atari shaped axe to grind... (don't even
bother mentioning your Atari "use-to-haves". spite don't make right)

If it's 64-bits, or if it ain't 64-bits, is no longer a question.
You should get used to it, and get a life perhaps.
Unless, of course you are a tried and true asshole, then
by all means continue to elaborate on moot points... you do this *so* well.

-B (pleanty more clues where that one came from...)

ps- lets take this to .advocacy, boys. incorrect followups will be ignored.

atar...@delphi.com

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Feb 27, 1995, 10:52:24 PM2/27/95
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Okay, they couldn't have done Doom better, but it still wouldn't match the PC
version. Everyone cites the price difference but the PC is a one time
expensive cost ($2000 for a multimedia 8 meg Pentium 90MHz, etc. etc. etc.)

My Jag is expensive. I bought the system for $230, have Iron Soldier, Doom,
AvP, Cannon Fodder, etc. Now if I get the CD player...

Alan Caruana

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Feb 27, 1995, 11:36:55 PM2/27/95
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<atar...@delphi.com> writes:

>Okay, they couldn't have done Doom better, but it still wouldn't match the PC
>version. Everyone cites the price difference but the PC is a one time
>expensive cost ($2000 for a multimedia 8 meg Pentium 90MHz, etc. etc. etc.)

Doom comes EXTREMELY close to the PC version, and is even better in
some ways..like light shading. And when you take the cost of a $2000 PC
and compare it to a $150 Jaguar, I better damn well hope that for $1850
more you are getting a better machine.

Even that, the Jag can blow the doors off a Pentium for some tasks.

Alan Caruana
Icef...@delphi.com

Christopher Gonderzik

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Feb 27, 1995, 11:54:08 PM2/27/95
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atar...@delphi.com wrote:
: Okay, they couldn't have done Doom better, but it still wouldn't match the PC

: version. Everyone cites the price difference but the PC is a one time
^^^^^^^^
: expensive cost ($2000 for a multimedia 8 meg Pentium 90MHz, etc. etc. etc.)

One-Time? Ack. Ya gotta replace your PC every TWO YEARS if you want to
play the "pushing-the-edge" games. I.e. two years ago, a 486DX/33 was "the
edge" with 486/66 being considered the tops. NOW a 486/66 is JUUUST barely
enuff for the new gen of games. Fortunatley, I don't care for the "new gen"
of PC games. Turn-based RPG's have died, and DOOM-clones run rampant.
CD-ROM is an acronym for "Hey, here's some shit taking up 680 megs of space
on my harddrive. Let's burn it on disc and call it HELL." I miss the days
when graphics were less important and PLAYABILITY was the rule (M.U.L.E.,
Zork, Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Wasteland...)

Anyway, enough off-topic rambling.

Travis Guy

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Feb 28, 1995, 12:53:39 AM2/28/95
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David Watters <wat...@infinet.com> writes:

>In article <3isgdf$g...@whitbeck.ncl.ac.uk>,
>Darren.Wilkinson <Darren.W...@ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>Q. Is the Jaguar really a 64-bit system?
>
>No.

"Look Martha! Mor-ons!"

Listen David, I really don't see where you have a gnawed-off leg to
stand on when you try to argue a point that the BLEEDIN' designer
of the box has stated over and over again in plain language.

Go and have your wet dreams about rapidly shrinking bulldogs.

--

Travis Guy - Editor - Atari Explorer Online Magazine + "Set a new course
Please EMail me at: aeo...@genie.geis.com | Commander. There's
| coffee in that
FTP latest AEOs from rahul.net :pub/wilsont/AEO | nebula."
On WWW: http://www.dl.ac.uk/MISC/ATARI/atari.html | --Capt. Janeway
"The Premier Online Resource, Recommended By Atari" + Star Trek: Voyager

Dr. Moze

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Feb 28, 1995, 9:52:57 AM2/28/95
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In article <3isl12$s...@rigel.infinet.com>
wat...@infinet.com (David Watters) writes:

> > 3D calculations and audio
> >processing do not generally use 64-bit numbers, so there would be no
> >advantage to 64 bit processors for this.
>
> Yeah, uh, okay.
>
> What rez and framerate was Doom in?

Arguing from the specific to the general doesn't work, David. You
should know better.


-- Dr. Moze (Steve Marsh) $^)

Dewey Chan

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Mar 1, 1995, 10:08:30 AM3/1/95
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In article <xu7512U....@delphi.com>, <atar...@delphi.com> wrote:
>Show me something that the Jag has done in software that hasn't been done
>on the PC, especially the Pentium.
>
>I love Doom on the Jag and it is very close, especially in playability, but
>it doesn't look as good as the hi-res (relatively) PC version. It's also
>missing some bad guys, along with some other stuff. I wouldn't have sacrificed
>the Doom II textures for at least preserving the invisible demons.

How much is a PENTIUM??? You get a 60mhz Pentium, it is the messed up
version of the 66mhz... You get a P-90, they tell you a P-100 chip will
be better, you get the P-100, they tell you that they have a P-100 with
higher MIPS...duh....all this in one year?
The average cost of a Pentium PC is around $1800 to $3000, depending on
how high end your PC is...

Robert Coleman

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Mar 1, 1995, 3:30:41 PM3/1/95
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wat...@infinet.com (David Watters) writes:

>In article <3isgdf$g...@whitbeck.ncl.ac.uk>,
>Darren.Wilkinson <Darren.W...@ncl.ac.uk> wrote:

>>Q. Is the Jaguar really a 64-bit system?

>No.

>Also according to Jez San, the Jaguar is not a 64bit machine.

>"A true 64 bit chip would have a 64 bit ALU and 64 bit registers. The
>Jag does not. Simply having two 32 bit chips does not constitute a 64
>bit cpu. Having a 64 bit databus does technically allow you to call it
>a 64 bit system if you must, but 64 bit cpus? no way." - Jez San

Pitiful. David, you didn't even read what you just spieled back.
In this quote, Jez San <reluctantly> *admits* that you can call it a
64-bit system. He says it doesn't have a 64-bit *chip*, but that you
can call it a 64-bit *system*. Go on, read it carefully. It's only 4
lines; your reading comprehension can't *possibly* be that poor.

I mean, you *do* understand the difference between "chip" and
"machine", "chip" and "system", don't you?

Now, how about showing some integrity? Since you're quoting Jez
as *proof*, and it's *your* excised quote, you're rather bound to accept
what he actually says: the Jaguar *is* a 64-bit system. Or is your "expert
witness" suddenly inadequate?

I'm trying pretty hard not to go to ad hominems, but frankly, your
misreading of the quote that *you yourself provided* brings your
intelligence into serious question. I mean, it's *only 4 frickin' lines,
and there aren't any words in there that a software engineer shouldn't
understand!*

Could you remind us again which software you're working on? It's
starting to become of some interest to me.

Robert C.
--
----------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: My company has not yet seen fit to
elect me as spokesperson. Hmmpf.

Evan Langlois

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Mar 1, 1995, 9:36:02 PM3/1/95
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Please read :

First, you cannot say a machine with 5 processors is 32 or 64 bits. You can't
do math that way! :-)

Second, instead of focusing on the DSP (32 bit) or GPU (64 bit), what about
the BLiTTER (64 bits) or Object Processor (64 bits). If the register size
is what determines the "bit"-ness of a processor, then the Motorola 68000 in
the Jag, my modem, and my pager, and my computer (who says the 68K line is
dead?) is really a 32 bit processor, and ANY computer running DOS is a 16 bit
processor (or possibly an 8-bit processor) since teh high 16 bits are almost
never used (go ahead, do a register dump of your favorite Windows software!)

In any case, it doesn't matter. The Jag is considered a 64 bit machine,
and it DOES have the capability to process 64 bits of data at once. period.
If you wanna talk about something that actually matters, what is more fun?
Doom on a Jag, or the best of Mario?

SLAM!DUNK nut

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Mar 1, 1995, 11:06:56 PM3/1/95
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In article <xu7512U....@delphi.com>
atar...@delphi.com writes:

> Show me something that the Jag has done in software that hasn't been done
> on the PC, especially the Pentium.

Programming on a machine with parallel processors isn't the same as programming
a PC with one CPU. Also, don't forget that there are literally thousands of
people who've had years of experience programming for Intel machines, whereas
the Jag is pretty new.
_______________________________________________________________________
© 1995 SLAM!DUNK nut

Macintosh: The 'insanely great' computer with 'a rebel heart'
which made a 'dent in the universe'!

Current Faye-vorite song: The Ordinary is the Most Romantic
Swoop is coming....

Jesper Rudberg

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Mar 2, 1995, 11:36:14 AM3/2/95
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Gerry Mon (gerr...@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: In article <3isl12$s...@rigel.infinet.com>,

: --Gerry

Maybe it has a 64-bit bus but it is easy to use all 64 bits?
So it not behave like a 16 bit machine with a quite slow bus.

Jochen Scharrlach

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Mar 4, 1995, 12:08:37 PM3/4/95
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Travis Guy (aeo...@delphi.com) wrote:

> David Watters <wat...@infinet.com> writes:
> >>Q. Is the Jaguar really a 64-bit system?
> >
> >No.
>
> "Look Martha! Mor-ons!"
>
> Listen David, I really don't see where you have a gnawed-off leg to
> stand on when you try to argue a point that the BLEEDIN' designer
> of the box has stated over and over again in plain language.

Well, what do you expect from someone who tries to earn money with the
3do? I think David is just trying to beat Peteys record in writing
the most flamebaits per week...

Bye,
Jochen

--
------------------------------------
EMail: jsch...@ba-stuttgart.de
or: aco...@ftp.uni-stuttgart.de
------------------------------------

Dave Thedens

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Mar 6, 1995, 10:46:27 AM3/6/95
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David Watters (wat...@infinet.com) wrote:

: A 64bit system without any major 64bit parts is pretty unique. The
: Jaguar has two pieces that shift a lot of pixels (blitter and display
: builder) that are 64bit wide. This was a smart move as this is a lot of
: what a video game machine needs to do. What most vocal people on this
: group just can't grasp is that these two pieces have to compete for bus
: resources. The 3DO solves this problem with dual ported VRAM thus giving
: it dual 32bit buses in that respect. The bus that is resonsible for
: drawing the display does not have to compete with every memory, cart, or
: cd access across the bus.

But, the 3DO's processor(s) do not operate in parallel. The ARM60 shuts
down when the cell engines are accessed. So you do not have independent
processors accessing the two buses simultaneously.
: --

: Life is too short to drive a slow car!
: David Watters
: wat...@infinet.com The last 10 years have been spent getting PCs with
: OS/2 or Windows NT to the point the Amiga was at.

dave
----------------
my own opinions

David Watters

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Mar 6, 1995, 12:35:14 AM3/6/95
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In article <robert.794089841@maelstrom>,
Robert Coleman <rob...@informix.com> wrote:

> Pitiful. David, you didn't even read what you just spieled back.
>In this quote, Jez San <reluctantly> *admits* that you can call it a
>64-bit system. He says it doesn't have a 64-bit *chip*, but that you
>can call it a 64-bit *system*. Go on, read it carefully. It's only 4
>lines; your reading comprehension can't *possibly* be that poor.

First, I didn't bring up Jez, someone else did. I merely posted another
view from Jez that confirms that there is nothing but a couple pieces of
sub-logic that are 64bit wide.

> I mean, you *do* understand the difference
>between "chip" and >"machine", "chip" and "system", don't you?

A 64bit system without any major 64bit parts is pretty unique. The

Jaguar has two pieces that shift a lot of pixels (blitter and display
builder) that are 64bit wide. This was a smart move as this is a lot of
what a video game machine needs to do. What most vocal people on this
group just can't grasp is that these two pieces have to compete for bus
resources. The 3DO solves this problem with dual ported VRAM thus giving
it dual 32bit buses in that respect. The bus that is resonsible for
drawing the display does not have to compete with every memory, cart, or
cd access across the bus.

Again the fact remains that a 32bit 3DO spanks the Jaguar in every aspect
so far according to the games. In addition, the 32X mech games makes
Iron Soldier look pretty whimpy. Why? I can only assume that a 64bit
stamp doesn't help as much as some of you would like.

KILGROE JEFFREY JAMES

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Mar 6, 1995, 1:35:52 PM3/6/95
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In article <3je6ui$7...@rigel.infinet.com>,

David Watters <wat...@infinet.com> wrote:
>In article <robert.794089841@maelstrom>,
>Robert Coleman <rob...@informix.com> wrote:
>
>> Pitiful. David, you didn't even read what you just spieled back.
>>In this quote, Jez San <reluctantly> *admits* that you can call it a
>>64-bit system. He says it doesn't have a 64-bit *chip*, but that you
>>can call it a 64-bit *system*. Go on, read it carefully. It's only 4
>>lines; your reading comprehension can't *possibly* be that poor.
>
>First, I didn't bring up Jez, someone else did. I merely posted another
>view from Jez that confirms that there is nothing but a couple pieces of
>sub-logic that are 64bit wide.
>
>> I mean, you *do* understand the difference
>>between "chip" and >"machine", "chip" and "system", don't you?
>
>A 64bit system without any major 64bit parts is pretty unique. The
>Jaguar has two pieces that shift a lot of pixels (blitter and display
>builder) that are 64bit wide. This was a smart move as this is a lot of
>what a video game machine needs to do. What most vocal people on this
>group just can't grasp is that these two pieces have to compete for bus
>resources. The 3DO solves this problem with dual ported VRAM thus giving
>it dual 32bit buses in that respect. The bus that is resonsible for
>drawing the display does not have to compete with every memory, cart, or
>cd access across the bus.
>
You are obviously not a computer hardware guru... I suggest you go do
some reasearch on just what dual ported VRAM is/does. That bunch of
steaming BS you just spilled makes you look like a complete idiot.

>Again the fact remains that a 32bit 3DO spanks the Jaguar in every aspect
>so far according to the games. In addition, the 32X mech games makes
>Iron Soldier look pretty whimpy. Why? I can only assume that a 64bit
>stamp doesn't help as much as some of you would like.
>

The 3DO may have prettier looking games, but I can only think of about
5 or 6 that can actually match games like Iron Soldier and Alien vs
Predator in game play. And sure, Metal Head on the 32X is about 85%
texture mapped, but it runs jerky, game play totally sucks, and when you
really look at it, it's not very impressive. Go study those textures and
polys and get back to me. Where's the shading? Where's all the colors?
Where's the outstanding game play that they promised?

>
>--
> Life is too short to drive a slow car!
>David Watters
>wat...@infinet.com The last 10 years have been spent getting PCs with
> OS/2 or Windows NT to the point the Amiga was at.


Jeff

Jesper Rudberg

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Mar 7, 1995, 3:11:42 AM3/7/95
to
Evan Langlois (e...@sdf.saomai.org) wrote:
: Please read :

: First, you cannot say a machine with 5 processors is 32 or 64 bits.
: You can't do math that way! :-)

: Second, instead of focusing on the DSP (32 bit) or GPU (64 bit), what about
: the BLiTTER (64 bits) or Object Processor (64 bits).

I thougt the GPU was 32 bits????
And the blitter is 64 bits but that it behaves like 16 bit blitter
on a slow bus when not doing very simple things.


: The Jag is considered a 64 bit machine,

And the PS-X and Saturn is 32bit macines!
So it doesnt matter. A bad designed 64bit machine isn't better than
a good designed 32bit machine. And PS-X and Saturn seams to be good designed.

/Jesper Rudberg


Mark Rathwell

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Mar 7, 1995, 10:26:14 PM3/7/95
to
: I thougt the GPU was 32 bits????

No. 64-bits. And the only "BUS" the Jag has is 64-bits wide.

: So it doesnt matter. A bad designed 64bit machine isn't better than

Badly designed? By what standards? Have to programmed any of
these machines? If not, shut up.

>> Mark <<


--
=============================================================================
Mark Rathwell The University Of Guelph
mrat...@uoguelph.ca or av...@Freenet.Carleton.CA

"In case I have no future, I've got the past. There's no telling just
how long this plague will last." - Chicago ("The Pull")
=============================================================================

Steven Scavone

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Mar 9, 1995, 7:11:00 AM3/9/95
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AT>Show me something that the Jag has done in software that hasn't been done
AT>on the PC, especially the Pentium.

AT>I love Doom on the Jag and it is very close, especially in playability, but
AT>it doesn't look as good as the hi-res (relatively) PC version. It's also

You need to get glasses and look alot closer then. Pc does not
do lighting or color like the Jaguar at all. Jag DOOM blows it
away.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* SLMR 2.0 * Nothing is so simple that it can't get screwed up.

Christian

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Mar 13, 1995, 10:44:17 AM3/13/95
to
I think the biggest way to tell if a system is 64bit is the level of
gaming. EVen though the SNES isn't exactly a 16bit machine, it is called a
16bit game system. Each jump in a system's performance is always associated
with the 'bit' of a machine. The 3DO, SAturn, U64 etc or all 32bit machines
while the future machines (like the ARCADE version of Daytona USA) could
probally be called almost 64bit in performance, even though there aren't a
64bit chip in the machine.

I'd put the Jag at about 32bit. . .

bit doesn't matter, it the power of the system at graphics. . .

Glenn Saunders

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Mar 14, 1995, 4:40:26 AM3/14/95
to
The mortal Christian wrote:
: I think the biggest way to tell if a system is 64bit is the level of
: gaming. EVen though the SNES isn't exactly a 16bit machine, it is called a
: 16bit game system. Each jump in a system's performance is always associated
: with the 'bit' of a machine. The 3DO, SAturn, U64 etc or all 32bit machines
: while the future machines (like the ARCADE version of Daytona USA) could
: probally be called almost 64bit in performance, even though there aren't a
: 64bit chip in the machine.

Bitness isn't as important as parallelization and clock speed. The PSX
has no 64-bit components that I know of, but it does have more powerful
chips and more of them working in parallel than the Jaguar, so whether the
Jaguar was 256 bits means nothing compared to the throughput comparisons.


David Watters

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Mar 14, 1995, 11:58:57 PM3/14/95
to
In article <3jqupk$q...@news.informix.com>,
Robert Coleman <rob...@informix.com> wrote:
> I can no longer trust anything you say, technical or otherwise.
>In doing this, you've removed the veneer of creditability that might
>otherwise have convinced some folks of the things you're trying to say.

So sorry to disapoint you... To be more specific, Jez says that there is
not a 64bit processor in the Jag. This was quoted to show a contrast to
someone that posted other quotes from Jez. I, unlike Jez and most of
you, do not call a system who's only 64bit logic is a BLITter and a sprite
engine a 64bit machine/system.

> I notice that you neglected to comply with my request to know what
>software you're working on. As the owner of a 3DO, I've become interested
>in this question. You seem shy on this subject; you're not embarrassed
>about your product, are you?

No, I just don't have the need to discuss my company's business with you
to try and prove anything. However, if your interest is sincere, you
will probably have no need for our first two projects which are oriented
to a specific vertical market. Actually, if you have a need for our
software, you have bigger problems. :-)


--
David Watters | Life is too short to drive a slow car!
wat...@infinet.com |--
--| The last 10 years have been spent getting PCs with
main() Patent Pending | OS/2 or Windows NT to the point the Amiga was at.

P.J. Hendrick

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Mar 16, 1995, 10:40:27 AM3/16/95
to
David Watters (wat...@infinet.com) wrote:
> In article <robert.794089841@maelstrom>,
> Robert Coleman <rob...@informix.com> wrote:

>
> A 64bit system without any major 64bit parts is pretty unique. The
> Jaguar has two pieces that shift a lot of pixels (blitter and display
> builder) that are 64bit wide. This was a smart move as this is a lot of
> what a video game machine needs to do. What most vocal people on this
> group just can't grasp is that these two pieces have to compete for bus
> resources. The 3DO solves this problem with dual ported VRAM thus giving
> it dual 32bit buses in that respect. The bus that is resonsible for
> drawing the display does not have to compete with every memory, cart, or
> cd access across the bus.

To be honest, I think Atari should say that the Jaguar is 32bit as its specs
are pretty shit for a 64bit system. And before you flame me, my housemate has
one and the games are good, but I wouldn't call them a "64bit interactive
multimedia" gaming experience. Tempest is the only decent game as Doom is far
too easy and slows down way to much for my liking.

Andrew K. Heller

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Mar 20, 1995, 12:19:21 PM3/20/95
to
atar...@delphi.com wrote:
: Show me something that the Jag has done in software that hasn't been done
: on the PC, especially the Pentium.
:
: I love Doom on the Jag and it is very close, especially in playability, but
: it doesn't look as good as the hi-res (relatively) PC version. It's also
: missing some bad guys, along with some other stuff. I wouldn't have sacrificed

: the Doom II textures for at least preserving the invisible demons.

Have you fogotten that the PC version eats 10+megs?!?!? Christ man, you
are comparing a friggin' ROM chip to a harddrive!

--
Andrew K. Heller - Making the world safe once again. hel...@akh104.rh.psu.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven Scavone

unread,
Mar 20, 1995, 5:49:00 PM3/20/95
to
WA>So sorry to disapoint you... To be more specific, Jez says that there is
WA>not a 64bit processor in the Jag. This was quoted to show a contrast to
WA>someone that posted other quotes from Jez. I, unlike Jez and most of
WA>you, do not call a system who's only 64bit logic is a BLITter and a sprite
WA>engine a 64bit machine/system.

Jez? I don't know who Jez is but he obviously disagrees with the
Jaguars chipset designers. How about the fact that is has a 64
bit bus? Will that convince you?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* SLMR 2.0 * Ickatty Ackatty Oop! It's yours.

Andrew S. Wheat

unread,
Mar 21, 1995, 9:23:41 AM3/21/95
to
Andrew K. Heller (hel...@akh104.rh.psu.edu) wrote:

: atar...@delphi.com wrote:
: : Show me something that the Jag has done in software that hasn't been done
: : on the PC, especially the Pentium.
: :
: : I love Doom on the Jag and it is very close, especially in playability, but
: : it doesn't look as good as the hi-res (relatively) PC version. It's also
: : missing some bad guys, along with some other stuff. I wouldn't have sacrificed
: : the Doom II textures for at least preserving the invisible demons.

: Have you fogotten that the PC version eats 10+megs?!?!? Christ man, you
: are comparing a friggin' ROM chip to a harddrive!

And just wait 'till Tempest 2000 PC comes out. Even running on a Pentium
I hear it just can't compare with the Jag. When you really hit the
mettal in the Jag it kicks ass at game-playing. Because it's designed to
play games, not do anything else, and because there is only one
configuration of Jag hardware rather then umpteen million combinations of
soundcards, video drivers etc., the Jag can sometimes kick even a Pentium
system's ass. (Pentium has trouble with g-shading for example. And you
expect any home PC to have music like Tempest 2000? Dream on!)

: --

KennyGS

unread,
Mar 21, 1995, 6:57:20 PM3/21/95
to
<<but it does have more powerful
chips and more of them working in parallel than the Jaguar,>>

Er, _every_ chip in the Jaguar works in parallel. That's the _main_ reason
why development is tough. When _any_ chip can be doing any one of many
different things at _any_ given clock cycle, keeping the data streaming
through without bottlenecks is tricky. Sometimes, developers find that
they can get something accomplished faster using a technique that the chip
developers didn't even consider!!
Still Sailing,
Sir Fransys

S94

unread,
Mar 22, 1995, 1:31:13 PM3/22/95
to

In article <Graberc.16...@coral.indstate.edu>, Gra...@coral.indstate.edu

Erm... yeah, go back to bed.

S.Lai

Robert Coleman

unread,
Mar 22, 1995, 3:39:02 PM3/22/95
to
In article <3k5s6h$8...@rigel.infinet.com>,

David Watters <wat...@infinet.com> wrote:
>In article <3jqupk$q...@news.informix.com>,
>Robert Coleman <rob...@informix.com> wrote:
>> I can no longer trust anything you say, technical or otherwise.
>>In doing this, you've removed the veneer of creditability that might
>>otherwise have convinced some folks of the things you're trying to say.
>
>So sorry to disapoint you... To be more specific, Jez says that there is
>not a 64bit processor in the Jag. This was quoted to show a contrast to
>someone that posted other quotes from Jez.

No, it wasn't; you prefaced the quote with "Jez also says that the
Jaguar is not a 64-bit machine". In the quote, Jez *specifically* says
you can call the Jag a 64-bit system.

Look, you were in entire control; you wrote the prefacing line,
you typed in the article; take responsibility for what you wrote, what you
misread, and the validity of the quote, or accept your complete loss of
credability. If you quote Jez, do him the respect of *reading* what he
says, and not mis-summarizing him. Your summary above is correct; why
didn't you do that the first time?

>I, unlike Jez and most of
>you, do not call a system who's only 64bit logic is a BLITter and a sprite
>engine a 64bit machine/system.

Fine. *That* is a matter of opinion, and you are entitled to
yours. What Jez said and how you misquoted him *isn't*. Your dodging of
the responsibility of mis-summarizing Jez *isn't*.

>> I notice that you neglected to comply with my request to know what
>>software you're working on. As the owner of a 3DO, I've become interested
>>in this question. You seem shy on this subject; you're not embarrassed
>>about your product, are you?
>
>No, I just don't have the need to discuss my company's business with you
>to try and prove anything. However, if your interest is sincere, you
>will probably have no need for our first two projects which are oriented
>to a specific vertical market. Actually, if you have a need for our
>software, you have bigger problems. :-)

Well, then, it doesn't make much sense to proffer yourself and your
software "expertise" as expert testimony. Since you've done so in the
past, I thought your qualifications were significant.

David, you have no interest in the machine, or anything that
happens to it, and you seem convinced that it will die a natural death,
and soon, since, in your opinion, it's technically inferior to it's
competitors. Why do you continue to read this group? Are you just some
sort of internet bully--"I can do it, and you can't stop me, so I'll just
kick some more sand up, for the sheer joy of annoying you"--or do you
actually have some sort of reasonable purpose?

Aren't you at all interested, for yourself if nothing else, in
figuring out why you continue to read the group? If I had an obsession
like that, I'd be concerned about trying to find out the roots of it, and
eliminating it. If it were politics, I'd understand, but it's *videogame
systems*, for Pete's sake.

Grue

unread,
Mar 29, 1995, 3:00:00 AM3/29/95
to
In article <1995Mar28.1...@rgfn.epcc.edu>,
Ricardo M Meleschi <ab...@rgfn.epcc.edu> wrote:
>Andrew S. Wheat (tana...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: And just wait 'till Tempest 2000 PC comes out. Even running on a Pentium
>: I hear it just can't compare with the Jag. When you really hit the
>: mettal in the Jag it kicks ass at game-playing. Because it's designed to
>: play games, not do anything else, and because there is only one
>: configuration of Jag hardware rather then umpteen million combinations of
>: soundcards, video drivers etc., the Jag can sometimes kick even a Pentium
>: system's ass. (Pentium has trouble with g-shading for example. And you
>: expect any home PC to have music like Tempest 2000? Dream on!)
>
>Somebody's nevr heard of General Midi before... That will make the music
>sound as god, if not better, than it's Jaguar counterpart... I agree

T2000 music is all samples and stuff. You'll need a card with a DAC, not
MIDI. The only downside to my Roland...sigh...

Tom


--
*Tom Pschar | Hi there. I am an Apteryx, a wingless bird with hairy feathers.*
* Hong Kong Phooey lives! * White Dragon whacks Oozing Stenchbeast *
*>LOOK *
*It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue. *

Brent Green

unread,
Mar 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM3/30/95
to
In article <3lakrv$3...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, jlwo...@unity.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey Lee Woodall) says:

>NOR has that person played Epic Pinball or One Must Fall. A solid PC
>could handle the music in Tempest 2000 anyday. However, I will also
>agree about the gourard (sp?) shading....
>
>Jeff
>


Sure, a solid PC with a sound card that cost the same as a new Jaguar.

What's with everyone who must compare a relatively low-cost game system
to a PC. Sure, use the argument that a PC is more useful. The fact remains
that there is a substantial cost difference, and the game system is
generally easier to use, more convenient, etc.

No flames intended, I'm just tired of the comparison.

Brent

Christian

unread,
Apr 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM4/3/95
to
In article <1995Mar28.1...@rgfn.epcc.edu> ab...@rgfn.epcc.edu (Ricardo M Meleschi) writes:
>From: ab...@rgfn.epcc.edu (Ricardo M Meleschi)
>Subject: Re: Jaguar 64-bit?? No.
>Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:06:04 GMT

>Andrew S. Wheat (tana...@netcom.com) wrote:

>: And just wait 'till Tempest 2000 PC comes out. Even running on a Pentium
>: I hear it just can't compare with the Jag. When you really hit the
>: mettal in the Jag it kicks ass at game-playing. Because it's designed to
>: play games, not do anything else, and because there is only one
>: configuration of Jag hardware rather then umpteen million combinations of
>: soundcards, video drivers etc., the Jag can sometimes kick even a Pentium
>: system's ass. (Pentium has trouble with g-shading for example. And you
>: expect any home PC to have music like Tempest 2000? Dream on!)

IF tempest 2000 came out for computers it would be on cdrom, their
ends the music question. Or if your computer has wave-table synthesis
then the jag couldn't compete.

For the music, the easiest thing to do would be pumping it right of
the cd. I mean the game isn't that complex, you just load the level into
the ram, then pump the music right from the cdrom. Now I don't know about
transpercies but the pc handles gourad shading just fine. Look at tie-
fighter, and the new x-wing game both run fine on a 386 40 and make
extensive use of gourad shadded fighters. It will probally run in windows (
not saying their is a tempest 2000 comming out, but if there was) and so y
ou wouldn't have to worry about drivers etc, windows takes care of that. A
pentium can do much more then the Jaguar, and when the new video cards come
out (you know the ones with texture mapping, g-shadding etc) we will see the
pc's surrpass the game systems in every respect.


GREGG CERENZIO

unread,
Apr 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM4/4/95
to
-> Message-ID: <Graberc.21...@coral.indstate.edu>
-> Organization: Indiana State University
-> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:59:06 GMT
->
-> In article <1995Mar28.1...@rgfn.epcc.edu> ab...@rgfn.epcc.edu
-> (Ricardo M Meleschi) writes:
-> >From: ab...@rgfn.epcc.edu (Ricardo M Meleschi)
-> >Subject: Re: Jaguar 64-bit?? No.
-> >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:06:04 GMT
->
-> >Andrew S. Wheat (tana...@netcom.com) wrote:
->
-> >: And just wait 'till Tempest 2000 PC comes out. Even running on a
-> Pentium >: I hear it just can't compare with the Jag. When you
-> really hit the >: mettal in the Jag it kicks ass at game-playing.
-> Because it's designed to >: play games, not do anything else, and
-> because there is only one >: configuration of Jag hardware rather
-> then umpteen million combinations of >: soundcards, video drivers
-> etc., the Jag can sometimes kick even a Pentium >: system's ass.
-> (Pentium has trouble with g-shading for example. And you >: expect
-> any home PC to have music like Tempest 2000? Dream on!)
-> IF tempest 2000 came out for computers it would be on cdrom, their
-> ends the music question. Or if your computer has wave-table
-> synthesis then the jag couldn't compete.
->
-> For the music, the easiest thing to do would be pumping it right of
-> the cd. I mean the game isn't that complex, you just load the level
-> into the ram, then pump the music right from the cdrom. Now I don't
-> know about transpercies but the pc handles gourad shading just fine.
-> Look at tie- fighter, and the new x-wing game both run fine on a 386
-> 40 and make extensive use of gourad shadded fighters. It will
-> probally run in windows ( not saying their is a tempest 2000 comming
-> out, but if there was) and so y
Tempest 2000 will be Out on the Pc. Atari will be makeing a few PC games
in the future. They way I see it, We have no Idea what the Jag. can do
yet, As we are just learning what 16-bit can do Mario to Dk
country..hmm, and we know the PC kicks ass, so Who cares, there both
great, lets just enjoy em!

Steve Chen

unread,
Apr 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM4/7/95
to
You really can't compare PC games to dedicatd game consoles. The top prog-
rammers at Sega _still_ can't make sonic 1 run on a pentium machine. Sonic 1!

Christian (Gra...@coral.indstate.edu) wrote:
: In article <1995Mar28.1...@rgfn.epcc.edu> ab...@rgfn.epcc.edu (Ricardo M Meleschi) writes:
: >From: ab...@rgfn.epcc.edu (Ricardo M Meleschi)
: >Subject: Re: Jaguar 64-bit?? No.
: >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:06:04 GMT

: >Andrew S. Wheat (tana...@netcom.com) wrote:

: >: And just wait 'till Tempest 2000 PC comes out. Even running on a Pentium
: >: I hear it just can't compare with the Jag. When you really hit the
: >: mettal in the Jag it kicks ass at game-playing. Because it's designed to
: >: play games, not do anything else, and because there is only one
: >: configuration of Jag hardware rather then umpteen million combinations of
: >: soundcards, video drivers etc., the Jag can sometimes kick even a Pentium
: >: system's ass. (Pentium has trouble with g-shading for example. And you
: >: expect any home PC to have music like Tempest 2000? Dream on!)
:
: IF tempest 2000 came out for computers it would be on cdrom, their
: ends the music question. Or if your computer has wave-table synthesis

: then the jag couldn't compete.

: For the music, the easiest thing to do would be pumping it right of
: the cd. I mean the game isn't that complex, you just load the level into
: the ram, then pump the music right from the cdrom. Now I don't know about
: transpercies but the pc handles gourad shading just fine. Look at tie-
: fighter, and the new x-wing game both run fine on a 386 40 and make
: extensive use of gourad shadded fighters. It will probally run in windows (
: not saying their is a tempest 2000 comming out, but if there was) and so y
: ou wouldn't have to worry about drivers etc, windows takes care of that. A

: pentium can do much more then the Jaguar, and when the new video cards come
: out (you know the ones with texture mapping, g-shadding etc) we will see the
: pc's surrpass the game systems in every respect.


:

--

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