Tekken Strategies NO less than VF2
Ansell Christopher James
lack of gameplay tactics. What total BULLSHIT!
I once agreed with this statement, but then i thought about it. My
mate and i play tekken (psx) all the time, and i have had to employ
every possible nina combo and air-combo to outwit his own gameplay
modification. You just dont run back and forth and press the throw
button every now and then!!! Tekken has all the same essential
gameplay elements as vf2, ie high-low blocks, stun, air attacks,
throws, reversals etc etc. And the fact that tekken 2 is the most
talked about game on here suggests it is not short on graphic appeal
either. I am sure vf3 will blow everything away, but then i will wait
for tekken 3 on system 22.
Just don't get the idea that tekken has no depth, because if you play
a good player over and over, you NEED to acquire every subtle move
you can. (that jirawat dude can't stop ragging on tekken! it's annoying
man!)
keg
--
Peter Gabriel - Starwars - CD-ROM - Industrial Music - Movies - Digital
Sound - Sleeping In - Usenet - Sony PS-X - Akira - The life is GOOD!!!
************************************************************************
Chris Ansell jc...@uow.edu.au "Call me Kegster" pu...@midnight.com.au
CreeD
... Okay. My two cents are:
1.Tekken2 DOES actually have strategy.
2. It's less than VF2's level.
.. flame me or whatever, that's cool, I enjoy these discussions.
Really.
Lark
: I am getting sick of hearing VF2 'purists' whinge about tekken 1+2
: lack of gameplay tactics. What total BULLSHIT!
: I once agreed with this statement, but then i thought about it. My
: mate and i play tekken (psx) all the time, and i have had to employ
: every possible nina combo and air-combo to outwit his own gameplay
: modification. You just dont run back and forth and press the throw
: button every now and then!!! Tekken has all the same essential
: gameplay elements as vf2, ie high-low blocks, stun, air attacks,
: throws, reversals etc etc. And the fact that tekken 2 is the most
: talked about game on here suggests it is not short on graphic appeal
VF2 does, however, let you change the timing on most combos (delay),
something the even more combo-intensive Tekken would have benefited
from. Both games could use more move feints, but VF2 does at least have
some (although it's led to a nasty bug abuse). Finally, VF2 gives you
more control over movement (better dashing in general, "stumbling" stops,
and crouch-dashes (but that's another bug)).
Tekken does do one thing better: it has grappling/reversal
animation. Alot of VFers get away with two-moves-in-one'ing their throws
and reversals, making a high damage throw attempt no more risky than a
jab usually.
The Tekken graphics are clearly of lower quality than the VF2
graphics, I really can't understand how some people think they're
better. The characters are covered with ugly sharp angles jutting out
all over the place, and their faces are locked in these permanent goofy
expressions (it'd be nice if their mouths moved when they spoke). Tekken
clearly can't do a background effect like Shun's bridge, all the
background details are set waaaaay back on the horizon. Finally, all the
disappearing polygons give me an eye strain headache after prolonged
playing. I also really hate the energy blobs, but i guess that's
personal taste.
What Tekken does better graphically than VF2 is the variety and
fluidity in character movement. Shun and Lion are about on Tekken's
level in this department, but the original VF characters are much too
stiff and mechanical.
In terms of character design, VF2 is a bit bland... nobody that's
really eye-popping (unless you're a Sarah fan), but nobody you can really
hate (unless, like me, you think Kage belongs in Tekken). With Tekken
I either love a character or hate it. Lee and Kazuya are cooler than
anyone in VF2, but King and Alex make me feel like i'm playing some
Nintendo kids game. Nina needs a mask like Kunimitsu's and a malpractice
suit against that plastic surgeon she went to between Tek1 and 2.
Tekken does have much better music and a better announcer, no contest
there. In sound effects Tek only has a slight advantage; the bone snaps
and grunts are great, but I like VF2's hitting and falling sounds better.
: Just don't get the idea that tekken has no depth, because if you play
: a good player over and over, you NEED to acquire every subtle move
: you can. (that jirawat dude can't stop ragging on tekken! it's annoying
: man!)
Tekken2 is Killer Instinct with throws. Sorry if that was vicious
backhanded slap, but if you think about it the prime discussion centers
around combo memorization/timing and how and where to break combos.
Once everyone gets all of that down pat, the game will become more like
VF2: lots of running around and safe pecking attacks mixed with throw
attempts. The only problem is that in VF2 the little attacks can be
used to set up larger combos, while in Tekken (short of a float) you
have to start with the preprogramed combo, and do it in a strict timing
sequence. So instead of strategically setup combos, you're going to get
alot of guess-comboing, as in "i guess this might hit". Fortunately
for Tek fans, there's alot more sequences to learn than in VF2, so enjoy
it while you can.
-Lark
who would ignore all of Tekken's problems if the characters weren't so ugly
sats...@usa.pipeline.com
>VF2 does, however, let you change the timing on most combos (delay),
>something the even more combo-intensive Tekken would have benefited
>from. Both games could use more move feints
developed in their arsenal and I suspect that a few of the other characters
do too.
sats...@usa.pipeline.com
VF2>, 'jl...@netcom.com (Lark)' wrote:
>I either love a character or hate it. Lee and Kazuya are cooler than
>anyone in VF2, but King and Alex make me feel like i'm playing some
>Nintendo kids game. Nina needs a mask like Kunimitsu's and a malpractice
>suit against that plastic surgeon she went to between Tek1 and 2.
>Tekken does have much better music and a better announcer, no contest
>there. In sound effects Tek only has a slight advantage; the bone snaps
>and grunts are great, but I like VF2's hitting and falling sounds better.
Maybe it's just the Saturn version but the "hitting and falling sounds" in
VF2 sound to me like someone banging their fist on wood. As far as
characters go I am a love 'em or leave 'em type too. Jacky, Wolf and Jeffry
really need some work.
It is fascinating to me how people try to do the impossible to support VF 2
which although it is a good game lacks many of the elements in Tekken 2.
e.g.
Tekken 2 has floats (aerial combos) and 10-hit combos (with multiple guard
points so I don't know why people keep swallowing them whole-Lack of
skill), VF 2 has floats therefore VF 2 is more complex. Huh????
Tekken 2 has tackle manoeuvers (Inspired, incidentally by UFC and the
Gracie Jiujitsu style), VF 2 has ONE move which is
kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF 2
offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
If your logical reasoning takes the form of the above too patterns then it
is possible to defend the idea that VF2 offers more complex gameplay.
Douglas William Cole
: On Jan 28, 1996 05:15:06 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
I was going to reply an argument to this, but why waste my
breath? I've played VF2, and I've played Tekken2, and VF2 is just WAY
better. Sure, that Romero Special is awesome the first couple times you
do it. And, the reversals are really neat when you do them once or
twice. But, it gets old... after you've seen the pre-prgrammed combos
and throws, there's nothing underneith it. There's also almost NO
recovery time to any of the moves, making it a big button mashing fest.
Well, since you got me started, I'll make a little, teeny
argument for VF2. :)
Japan has had 2 (and is currently holding a third) VF2
tournaments, in which hundreds of thousands of people signed up. The
expert players there have rock-star status. The game has been out a year
and a half and we're still learning new things about the game engine.
Gamest (a very prestigious video game magazine which writes DETAILED
analysis abiout games) has written THREE books on VF2, and only only for
Tekken 2.
VF2 keeps coming out with new twists to the game engine, and
Tekken2 time releases secret characters (hybrids of the original
characters mostly). Speaking of the characters, Tekken 2 has 10 normal
and 12 secret characters that are TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
just plain HORRIBLE.
Argh, I have to stop before I get too worked up. :)
Lark
: On Jan 28, 1996 05:15:06 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
: VF2>, 'jl...@netcom.com (Lark)' wrote:
: Maybe it's just the Saturn version but the "hitting and falling sounds" in
: VF2 sound to me like someone banging their fist on wood. As far as
The Saturn sounds are noticeably muffled and hollow sounding compared
to the arcade version.
: Tekken 2 has floats (aerial combos) and 10-hit combos (with multiple guard
: points so I don't know why people keep swallowing them whole-Lack of
: skill), VF 2 has floats therefore VF 2 is more complex. Huh????
Both games have alot more than that. What makes a 10-hit combo special?
: Tekken 2 has tackle manoeuvers (Inspired, incidentally by UFC and the
: Gracie Jiujitsu style), VF 2 has ONE move which is
: kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF 2
: offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
If you can rush in and tackle you can rush in and throw, it doesn't
change the gameplay any. The multi-throws are like that overhyped SPoD,
it has no strategic significance, it's just tack-on damage to reward
memorizing button presses and blowing quarters on the game just to get the
timing down. I'm not saying they're useless, they add to the variety and
overall play enjoyment of the game, but they don't do anything from a
strategic standpoint.
I hope I don't sound like another VF2 fan ragging on Tekken. While I
think VF has the best head-to-head game engine around, I also think it's
overrated with some unacknowledged flaws. There are several things that
Tekken does better, but more important things that it does worse. I
actually thought Tekken might beat VF to the true 3D playing engine (ie
extensive use of lateral movement), but it sounds like Toshinden of all
games is making the first serious stab at that with the new release. Now
there's a game with a bad rep to overcome.
-Lark
Yu De Lin
2 cents here.
I'm a TK2 player, and only watched VF2. So my views might be biased.
This post is not intended to bash VF.
IMHO, both games are 'similar'. Both are polygon fighters.
People know more about VF2 because it has been out longer.
They did not go into the 'deep' strategies until it was released
for quite sometime.
Was the game intended to require more strategy than any other?
And for those VFers who are so hyped up about 'crouch dashing'
and 'SPoD', do you really think that these moves are intended
to be there?
If they are...doesn't that make Akira more powerful than anyone else,
and thus throw off the 'balance' of the game?
And I believe someone said that "there is NO delay after moves in TK",
that is just total BS. The more damaging the move is...the more delay
it has! You can't whiff a powerful attack without being punished,
I'm sure VF is just like that too.
I think this is developing into a Vf/TK flame war...
Can't we all just get along? =)
UD
JON HICKMAN
>> Well, since you got me started, I'll make a little, teeny
>>argument for VF2. :)
>>
>
> since last summer. there are no new twists, I've mastered Kage and
> can easily win on one credit(sometimes two if Akira is in a bad mood)
Mastered? I doubt it. Beating the game has little to do with mastery. Very
little.
> When Tekken 2 came out it was a whole new thing. The action
> was fast, the motions were fluid and exciting, now THIS was an
> arcade fighting game. Not like that fighing 'simulator' that sits
> unused in the corner. VF2 seems very sterile, very lifeless in
> comparason to TK2. Also the home version will be a flawless
> translation on PSX (maybe better).
How can an arcade translation be better than flawless? And why does that make
the arcade game better? You'd think that it'd be more of a plus to the game to
say that the game is so vast and complex that it'd be quite difficult indeed to
translate a $5000 dollar machine into a $50 dollar console game. ($350 if you
add the system.) And that fact doesn't attest to the power of the console,
either.....it states that they could have done better, and should have.
>>Tekken2 time releases secret characters (hybrids of the original
>>characters mostly). Speaking of the characters, Tekken 2 has 10 normal
>>and 12 secret characters that are TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
>>Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
>>just plain HORRIBLE.
>
> hmmm, it strongly appears that you have missed the point. There are
> 23(25 if you count Angel/Devil and Alex/Roger). This offers the
> closest thing to custom characters in fighting games without actually
> choosing what moves your character gets before the fight. You like
> Law? You also like Paul? Play Lee, who has both their moves. The
> hybrids offer players a chance to choose the character that most
> suits their preferences. There are three variations of Jack-2, each
> with their own unique moves, two of Nina, three of Paul, two of
> Michelle, etc etc etc.... There are 12 solid fighting styles in the
> game(All the original characters plus Baek(Tai Kwon Do) and Ganryu
> (sumo wrestling)).
The problem with the new characters (i.e. the hybrids), is that they seem to
make the regular fighters a bit obsolete. Why play Paul when you can play Lee,
get a majority of his good moves and get Law's moves as well? I know I make
it sound simpler than it is, but that's the impression given. The secret
characters (except for Baek or Ganryu) seem quite unoriginal to me, bascially.
I'd have prefered new concepts (like a cross between Law and Paul as far as
style and attitude, but different moves) to just bastardizations. And while
that doesn't detract from the game itself, it does prove that they could have
done better.
> VF2? Ten characters, four of which(Jacky/Sarah, Lau/Pai) who are
> somewhat similar(have same basic kicks,punches; share a few other
> special movements.) that makes only six REALLY different characters.
Okay....now that's a bit *too* general. If you are really experienced w/ VF2,
then you cannot truly believe that. Granted, there are a few similarities,
but, the characters are quite different in strategy and gameplay. If you
really *do* believe that, then I doubt your measure of experience...or you need
to play new people.
Ken K. Lee
<sats...@usa.pipeline.com> wrote:
>On Jan 28, 1996 05:15:06 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
>VF2>, 'jl...@netcom.com (Lark)' wrote:
>Tekken 2 has floats (aerial combos) and 10-hit combos (with multiple guard
>points so I don't know why people keep swallowing them whole-Lack of
>skill), VF 2 has floats therefore VF 2 is more complex. Huh????
>
>Gracie Jiujitsu style), VF 2 has ONE move which is
>kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF 2
>offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
>
>is possible to defend the idea that VF2 offers more complex gameplay.
>
IMHO, Tekken 2 is great eye candy, but I find much less strategy in Tekken
than VF2. I know of no other game where the details play such an important
part. For example, in VF2, your foot stance can make or break you. In an
open stance, throwing is more difficult, attacks may hit differently, or
whiff altogether. VF2 has been out quite a while now, and even now,
experienced VF2'ers are still learning the new techniques which are brought
to tournement play. For example, the "Taiwan Step" and senbon-punch which
have been fairly recently introduced here on RGVA. I'm not trying to take
anything away from Tekken 2 -- but you give me the opportunity to choose
which one I'd play, I'll take VF2 over Tekken 2 any day.
-Ken
Allen Dickerson
>argument for VF2. :)
>
> VF2 keeps coming out with new twists to the game engine, and
uhhh, such as? new twists? its the same game i've been playing
since last summer. there are no new twists, I've mastered Kage and
can easily win on one credit(sometimes two if Akira is in a bad mood)
was fast, the motions were fluid and exciting, now THIS was an
arcade fighting game. Not like that fighing 'simulator' that sits
unused in the corner. VF2 seems very sterile, very lifeless in
comparason to TK2. Also the home version will be a flawless
translation on PSX (maybe better).
>characters mostly). Speaking of the characters, Tekken 2 has 10 normal
>and 12 secret characters that are TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
>Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
>just plain HORRIBLE.
hmmm, it strongly appears that you have missed the point. There are
23(25 if you count Angel/Devil and Alex/Roger). This offers the
closest thing to custom characters in fighting games without actually
choosing what moves your character gets before the fight. You like
Law? You also like Paul? Play Lee, who has both their moves. The
hybrids offer players a chance to choose the character that most
suits their preferences. There are three variations of Jack-2, each
with their own unique moves, two of Nina, three of Paul, two of
Michelle, etc etc etc.... There are 12 solid fighting styles in the
game(All the original characters plus Baek(Tai Kwon Do) and Ganryu
(sumo wrestling)).
somewhat similar(have same basic kicks,punches; share a few other
special movements.) that makes only six REALLY different characters.
line for 20 min just to lose 4 rounds out of seven(I did get him
twice). People stand around in the streets outside the arcades to
watch the fights on big screens. Its a cultural icon, WAY surpassing
the minor DOOM craze over here. Sega isn't even going to release
VF3 until they are sure that it won't infringe on their VF2 profits
and I can't blame them. Unfortunatly for Sega of America, that means
they'll have to wait probably a year before VF3 hits our shores, and
since VF2 isn't nearly as big over here, that hurts both SOA and
American arcades.
whoops this became a Sega bashing post, sorry.
Allen Dickerson
>>> VF2 keeps coming out with new twists to the game engine, and
>>
>> uhhh, such as? new twists? its the same game i've been playing
>> since last summer. there are no new twists, I've mastered Kage and
>> can easily win on one credit(sometimes two if Akira is in a bad mood)
>
>little.
VF guide to whose hot and whose not and looked me up.(pg 4;rating 2
out of 5)Have you seen me play? Then don't make an opinion till you do.
Noone can beat me down at the local arcade. Not even the machine.
I define 'mastery' as you so smugly put it as someone who can't
be beaten. Maybe a better word would be , I am 'unbeatable' with
Kage, and perhaps I will tack on, 'where I play' Satisfied?
Or perhaps I could say I am the 'master' of the local VF.
Either way your last comment was pretty invalid and could be
considered an attack on me, which one VFer said that all VFers
'never' do. So thanks for proving him wrong.
>> When Tekken 2 came out it was a whole new thing. The action
>> was fast, the motions were fluid and exciting, now THIS was an
>> arcade fighting game. Not like that fighing 'simulator' that sits
>> unused in the corner. VF2 seems very sterile, very lifeless in
>> comparason to TK2. Also the home version will be a flawless
>> translation on PSX (maybe better).
>
is it a complement to the game if the home version is better]
Every one who has played Tekken 1 in both arcades and PSX says that
the PSX version is better. This means that the programmers did a hell
of a lot better job on less powerful hardware.
>>
>> hmmm, it strongly appears that you have missed the point. There are
>> 23(25 if you count Angel/Devil and Alex/Roger). This offers the
>> closest thing to custom characters in fighting games without actually
>> choosing what moves your character gets before the fight. You like
>> Law? You also like Paul? Play Lee, who has both their moves. The
>> hybrids offer players a chance to choose the character that most
>> suits their preferences. There are three variations of Jack-2, each
>> with their own unique moves, two of Nina, three of Paul, two of
>> Michelle, etc etc etc.... There are 12 solid fighting styles in the
>> game(All the original characters plus Baek(Tai Kwon Do) and Ganryu
>> (sumo wrestling)).
>
>make the regular fighters a bit obsolete. Why play Paul when you can play Lee,
>get a majority of his good moves and get Law's moves as well? I know I make
>it sound simpler than it is, but that's the impression given. The secret
>characters (except for Baek or Ganryu) seem quite unoriginal to me, bascially.
>I'd have prefered new concepts (like a cross between Law and Paul as far as
>style and attitude, but different moves) to just bastardizations. And while
>that doesn't detract from the game itself, it does prove that they could have
>done better.
>
but people still play Law and Paul because there are moves that they
have that Lee doesn't(flipkick etc),
>> VF2? Ten characters, four of which(Jacky/Sarah, Lau/Pai) who are
>> somewhat similar(have same basic kicks,punches; share a few other
>> special movements.) that makes only six REALLY different characters.
>
>then you cannot truly believe that. Granted, there are a few similarities,
>but, the characters are quite different in strategy and gameplay. If you
>really *do* believe that, then I doubt your measure of experience...or you need
>to play new people.
people who can go from Lau to Pai and do the excact same stuff!
YES, I will admit that Sarah and Jacky are as different as night and
day(Sarah = speed, Jacky = Power) but a lot of their basics look and
feel alike, I went from Sarah to Jacky(never played Jacky before) and
did pretty good. As for strategies, most Jeffrey and Wolf players do
a lot of the same stuff, and there are similarities between many
Lau and Pai players.
Let me get one last thing straight. I play VF2. I play Tekken.
More people can give me a good game at Tekken than VF2, partially
because no one plays VF2. VF2 has become dull because of said fact.
Tekken remains fun and enjoyable because people play it. No one
plays VF2 at the University of Alabama at Birmingham's Arcade.
There, I've said it. I can't speak for other USA arcades(out of
state) but the general consensus i'm getting says that VF2 is on
the decline, and I'm pointing out why I think people are attracted
to Tekken 2 when VF2 costs the same and is in the same room.
The arcade staff may drop VF2 to 1 to start 1 to continue, maybe
that will bring people back to it. I'll be the first in line.
But right now Tekken is beating it, and I am supporting it because
I get more entertainment out of it than VF2.
Allen (who can't wait for Soul Edge but will have to wait for VF3)
JON HICKMAN
I don't know why I'm posting this, but...
Oh, and before I start, yes I do play TK2 quite often, and am fairly skilled at
it and do enjoy the game. So none of those "You elitist VF2 bastard" flames.
> Maybe it's just the Saturn version but the "hitting and falling sounds" in
> VF2 sound to me like someone banging their fist on wood. As far as
> characters go I am a love 'em or leave 'em type too. Jacky, Wolf and Jeffry
> really need some work.
Eh....the Saturn version is a bit more primitive than the arcade version as far
as sound and graphics go. It was a rushed job, and is in no way representative
of the arcade game other than the gameplay and other obvious similarities.
i.e. Comparing the Saturn version of VF2 to the arcade version of TK2 doesn't
make much sense unless you're comparing the gamplay and concept. Those are two
different arenas.
> It is fascinating to me how people try to do the impossible to support VF 2
> which although it is a good game lacks many of the elements in Tekken 2.
And TK2 lacks a good deal of the elements of VF2. And apple and a orange are
both fruits, some people like apples, some people like oranges. I don't whine
about apples lacking the thick peel of an orange, nor about oranges lacking a
stem on top.
> e.g.
> Tekken 2 has floats (aerial combos) and 10-hit combos (with multiple guard
> points so I don't know why people keep swallowing them whole-Lack of
> skill), VF 2 has floats therefore VF 2 is more complex. Huh????
>
> Tekken 2 has tackle manoeuvers (Inspired, incidentally by UFC and the
> Gracie Jiujitsu style), VF 2 has ONE move which is
> kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF 2
> offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
>
> If your logical reasoning takes the form of the above too patterns then it
> is possible to defend the idea that VF2 offers more complex gameplay.
>
Uh....I'm not sure exactly what your point is.
If it's that 10-hit combos are where TK2 far exceeds VF2: Sorry, I never liked
Mortal Killer Kombat Instinct in the first place, and I don't need to play it
in 3D. The whole "combo-mania" phenomenon is appalling to me on an aesthetic
level. And its entirely misrepresentative of TK2. BTW, I haven't seen a post
where someone said "VF2 is better cause you can float people"..and while I may
have missed something, I imagine it was the variety of ways you can make people
float, attack floaters that was the point....not the actual floats themselves
(and, yes, TK2 has good float-tags too)
If it's style of character's moves, i.e. basis on real-life martial arts, then
VF2 *does* exceed TK2 in that respect. Beyond the anti-grav manouevers and
flipkicks, a majority of the moves in VF2 are quite possible by reasonably
athletic human beings.
If your point is strictly that tackles are the one aspect of where TK2 exceeds
VF2, then I guess you're right, TK2 does have alot of "tackles"....but I don't
see where that fits in to the debate...because it can really be delineated into
just another type of throw/takedown/knockdown/dash move/rising attack.
The whole VF2 vs. TK2 debate is strictly an aesthetic one. I like VF2 for its
realism and depth (and, no, I don't plan on babbling about why, because I
really don't know why, I just do). I like TK2 for its fun and realtive ease.
Frankly, in my eyes, VF2 is a more challenging game to play...its fun for
strategy and for getting into serious competition. Likewise, TK2 is enjoyable
for just relaxing and clowning around with my friends and going "cool, look at
that", getting into less pure strategy and playful competition.
Not to say that TK2 *can't* be played seriously, I'm sure it can....just not by
me...I just don't take it near as seriously as VF2. *shrug* And no amount of
debate is gonna change that.
JON HICKMAN
> Ansell Christopher James (jc...@wumpus.cc.uow.edu.au) wrote:
> : I am getting sick of hearing VF2 'purists' whinge about tekken 1+2
> : lack of gameplay tactics. What total BULLSHIT!
Well, no offense really, but sometimes the debates by the TK2-ers come off as a
plea for someone to take them and their game seriously for a change.
Hey, you like your game. VF2-ers like their game. We aren't attacking people
personally, just relaying our opinion (and that's all it is, an opinion) of the
game. So don't take it personally, it isn't.
> : I once agreed with this statement, but then i thought about it. My
> : mate and i play tekken (psx) all the time, and i have had to employ
> : every possible nina combo and air-combo to outwit his own gameplay
> : modification. You just dont run back and forth and press the throw
> : button every now and then!!! Tekken has all the same essential
> : gameplay elements as vf2, ie high-low blocks, stun, air attacks,
> : throws, reversals etc etc. And the fact that tekken 2 is the most
> : talked about game on here suggests it is not short on graphic appeal
Fow awhile, everyone thought New Kids on the Block were the best band ever....
just because the masses think it doesn't mean they're right. (and, yes, that
many people *can* be wrong)
> Tekken does do one thing better: it has grappling/reversal
> animation. Alot of VFers get away with two-moves-in-one'ing their throws
> and reversals, making a high damage throw attempt no more risky than a
> jab usually.
Yea...but the close-ups seem distracting to me....sure, it's tres' cool the
first few times, but after awhile, I wish I could hit a button to skip the
animation.
> The Tekken graphics are clearly of lower quality than the VF2
> graphics, I really can't understand how some people think they're
> better. The characters are covered with ugly sharp angles jutting out
> all over the place, and their faces are locked in these permanent goofy
> expressions (it'd be nice if their mouths moved when they spoke). Tekken
> clearly can't do a background effect like Shun's bridge, all the
> background details are set waaaaay back on the horizon. Finally, all the
> disappearing polygons give me an eye strain headache after prolonged
> playing. I also really hate the energy blobs, but i guess that's
> personal taste.
Sorry, but while I like TK2...it *is* kinda ugly. Dark, grainy, and much too
angular. The people's faces look like they really have been fighting each
other this much.
I could do w/o the sparks as well.
> What Tekken does better graphically than VF2 is the variety and
> fluidity in character movement. Shun and Lion are about on Tekken's
> level in this department, but the original VF characters are much too
> stiff and mechanical.
I agree...to a point. Sometimes, it seems *too* fluid at times. Like people's
joints unattach.
> In terms of character design, VF2 is a bit bland... nobody that's
> really eye-popping (unless you're a Sarah fan), but nobody you can really
> hate (unless, like me, you think Kage belongs in Tekken). With Tekken
> I either love a character or hate it. Lee and Kazuya are cooler than
> anyone in VF2, but King and Alex make me feel like i'm playing some
> Nintendo kids game. Nina needs a mask like Kunimitsu's and a malpractice
> suit against that plastic surgeon she went to between Tek1 and 2.
Both games could use some serious character re-design as far as visuals. Their
uniforms aren't really all that hot, they could use some new style, and some
minor stuff just bugs me. TK2 characters annoy me in that some of them aren't
real (the metal people, the tigers, and lizard-boy w/ gloves), and aren't all
that original (The Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee look alikes, along with the Guile
look-alike. Really...I'm starting to wonder if they're gonna have some Chuck
Norris or Jet Li wannabes in TK3)
> : Just don't get the idea that tekken has no depth, because if you play
> : a good player over and over, you NEED to acquire every subtle move
> : you can. (that jirawat dude can't stop ragging on tekken! it's annoying
> : man!)
>
> Tekken2 is Killer Instinct with throws. Sorry if that was vicious
> backhanded slap, but if you think about it the prime discussion centers
> around combo memorization/timing and how and where to break combos.
> Once everyone gets all of that down pat, the game will become more like
> VF2: lots of running around and safe pecking attacks mixed with throw
> attempts. The only problem is that in VF2 the little attacks can be
> used to set up larger combos, while in Tekken (short of a float) you
> have to start with the preprogramed combo, and do it in a strict timing
> sequence. So instead of strategically setup combos, you're going to get
> alot of guess-comboing, as in "i guess this might hit". Fortunately
> for Tek fans, there's alot more sequences to learn than in VF2, so enjoy
> it while you can.
As long as TK2's merits are argued from the combo angle, then, yes, KI w/
throws is a very accurate assesment. The problem is, that it's a perfectly
fine game w/o the combos...and frankly, when I play, I rarely use the combos
and still beat most people...even those who whip out the 10-hitters with ease.
When argued strictly from the combo angle, the button-banger impression is
left...somewhat rightly in some regards. Yes, there are plenty of things you
can do to people, but when they are only the same canned combos over and over,
that's not only boring, it's pathetic. If there's one thing they should take
out of the game, it's prolly the button-banger mentality of the
combos...especially when by outword appearances, there seems little strategy
involved (whether true or not, that's the impression left...and these days,
impressions are more important than truth)
PsychoKick
myself a master at either (beating the stupid computer on one credit does
not prove a damn thing BTW), I feel that I know enough about the games to
make a fairly well-grounded comparison (ie: I can at least put up a good
fight against serious competition). I would also like to point out that
I've seriously studied and sparred in several different martial arts
(TaeKwonDo, Judo, Hapkido, Western fencing, Karate) and that I KNOW what
is realistic and practical, as well as the difference between those two
terms.
In terms of strategy and complexity, VF2 is the clear winner. I am
not saying that Tekken2 is a "dumb" game, I'm just saying that VF2 is just
so much more complex. Let me explain how.
In Tekken, there are loads and loads of characters and "special
moves". This does make for very complex gaming, but after a while you sort
of "use up" everything. There are very few ways to mix, modify, and
combine the special moves with each other except for the preprogrammed
sequences. Sort of how there are only so many ways you can rearrange the
ornaments on a Christmas tree, it's still a Christmas tree.
In VF2, almost EVERY SINGLE normal move and "special move" can be
somewhat modified and combined with each other. There is no such thing as
"using up" strategies, because the moves are like lego blocks: they can be
endlessly combined into different things. Even walking and blocking in VF2
can be thought of as a move to be combined with others. There are very few
preprogrammed things. Instead, nearly everything is modular. For VF2,
essentially the creators give you the basics and let you build your own
style. VF2 experts often play VERY differently from each other, even when
using the same characters.
Another note: VF2 is the first and only fighting game I've ever
played that makes me apply the ACTUAL SPARRING MENTALITY I've acquired
through martial arts practice. I find myself thinking almost the exact
same way in a game of VF2 as I do in real-life fighting. Perhaps this is
because real-life martial arts have the same modular quality as VF2. There
is NOTHING preprogrammed in real-life fights.
To be fair, though, VF2 can be incredibly tiring and hard to learn
because of this. Tekken2 is much more relaxing and thus probably can be
considered more "fun". The best examples I can think of is programming in
Assembly (VF2) vs programming in C++ (Tekken2), or driving a manual (VF2)
vs driving an automatic (Tekken2). Real-life fighting (or a direct mental
simulation of it) isn't exactly what I'd call a good way of relaxing.
Plus, Tekken2 has a sense of humor and personality, which is invaluable in
an arcade game. I love the gonzo characters in Tekken2 and the overall
"fun" factor of the special moves.
In closing, I'd like to repeat: VF2 has loads more strategy than
Tekken2. But Tekken2 is still a great game that I really love playing. If
I had to choose between the two, I really don't think I could make up my
mind.
-PsychoKick
Boone
VF2>, 'do...@umd.umich.edu (Douglas William Cole)' wrote:
>I was going to reply an argument to this, but why waste my
>breath? I've played VF2, and I've played Tekken2, and VF2 is just WAY
>better.
argument here. I am sorry (that no one has told you this yet) but you
saying that YOU think that VF2 is quote "Way better" does not make it so.
When all else fails the regular appeal is made to VF2's wide popularity and
superiour graphic hardware. These were never in question but they prove
NOTHING. Pornography is hugely popular, it is a multi-billion dollar
industry-Does this prove that porno films have artistic merit?
I have been informed by many of the posts by VFfers about aspects of the
game that I perhaps didn't see before. I still believe that Tekken 2 offers
overwhelmingly more complex gameplay and I have given arguments to show
this for which there has not yet been a serious refutation. I am beginning
to realize that from some peoples mouths statements about VF2 are to be
given the same credibility as religious statements. If someone said "God
spoke to me this morning" we would understand that that person had a
powerful emotional experience but we would not necessarily conclude that
God ACTUALLY spoke to the person or even that God exists. Likewise when
some people say "VF2 has superior gameplay" they are completely unable to
quantify or elaborate on the supposedly great "gameplay" but they exist
that it is there with religious fervour. Most of us aetheists have nothing
invested in God or VF2 so we can try to assess what IS there and what
ISN'T. I understand your satement that "VF2 is way better" as being a
statement regarding your emotional attitude in regards to VF2. It does
nothing to advance the debate here though.
Boone
VF2>, 'do...@umd.umich.edu (Douglas William Cole)' wrote:
>Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
>just plain HORRIBLE.
other characters. I don't know whether this is the case or not but the fact
that some people THINK so does not make it so. I find that when I play TK2
in versus mode (most of the time) I select different characters depending
on who my opponent is using and how I have seen them use that character in
the past. At some point or another I have used all the characters, I don't
think I (many other experts are also as flexible) would do this if there
were a substantial difference in the strengths of the characters, or the
ability of the characters to get results. When I play TK2 I am confident
that I can pick any character and win a fight, this seems to me to speak of
good balance. I notice however that VF2 players tend to stick religiously
to one character...
Allen Dickerson
>Hey, you like your game. VF2-ers like their game. We aren't attacking people
itself "We VFers are so much better than those low groveling people who
play Tekken 2 because unlike them, NONE of us have EVER attacked anyone"
That in itself is an attack on me and on everyone who is making an
argument for TK2. Keep your "opinions" to yourself and we'll keep our
'brutal, unprevoked, 'I hate him because of his opinions', attacks to
ourselves.
>
>Fow awhile, everyone thought New Kids on the Block were the best band ever....
>just because the masses think it doesn't mean they're right. (and, yes, that
>many people *can* be wrong)
>
than the next band, I don't think they cared. (at the end
of your letter you say impressions are more important than truth, well,
you are right.) On the subject of ethics, such as killing someone,yes
the masses can be wrong. On the subject of personal entertainment,
whatever you like more is 'right' for you, and right now i'd say more
people are liking TK2 than VF2. Or have you forgotton once more the
begining of your post "We like VF, you like TK2"
>
>Yea...but the close-ups seem distracting to me....sure, it's tres' cool the
>first few times, but after awhile, I wish I could hit a button to skip the
>animation.
>
animations over. Then again some of Jeffrey's throws do take a
while....
>
>Sorry, but while I like TK2...it *is* kinda ugly. Dark, grainy, and much too
>angular. The people's faces look like they really have been fighting each
>other this much.
>I could do w/o the sparks as well.
>
it would rule the world, uh wait, SOUL EDGE!!! heh heh.
>> What Tekken does better graphically than VF2 is the variety and
>> fluidity in character movement. Shun and Lion are about on Tekken's
>> level in this department, but the original VF characters are much too
>> stiff and mechanical.
>
>
>uniforms aren't really all that hot, they could use some new style, and some
>minor stuff just bugs me. TK2 characters annoy me in that some of them aren't
>real (the metal people, the tigers, and lizard-boy w/ gloves), and aren't all
>that original (The Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee look alikes, along with the Guile
>look-alike. Really...I'm starting to wonder if they're gonna have some Chuck
>Norris or Jet Li wannabes in TK3)
>
boxing, and the bear is just plain cool. VF3 only WISHES it had a bear.
On the subject of the Tigers, Japanese Pro Wrestlers wear stuff like
that, i'm sure thats where Namco got the idea.
>>
>> Tekken2 is Killer Instinct with throws. Sorry if that was vicious
>> backhanded slap, but if you think about it the prime discussion centers
>> around combo memorization/timing and how and where to break combos.
>> Once everyone gets all of that down pat, the game will become more like
>> VF2: lots of running around and safe pecking attacks mixed with throw
>> attempts. The only problem is that in VF2 the little attacks can be
>> used to set up larger combos, while in Tekken (short of a float) you
thingy that knocks you out of the ring or Kage players who do the
10ft toss and float you out of the ring or stupid Pai players who
counter everything you do without throwing a punch of their own.
OR Jacky players who just plain kick your ass playing mechanical as hell
A good Jacky player might as well be Dural on Expert mode.
BTW, I love doing that Kage thing:)
>> have to start with the preprogramed combo, and do it in a strict timing
>> sequence. So instead of strategically setup combos, you're going to get
>> alot of guess-comboing, as in "i guess this might hit". Fortunately
>> for Tek fans, there's alot more sequences to learn than in VF2, so enjoy
>> it while you can.
on the last three hits) and I kick peoples butts all over the place.
VF2 has preprogrammed combo's too, you know (P,P,P,K).
>As long as TK2's merits are argued from the combo angle, then, yes, KI w/
>throws is a very accurate assesment. The problem is, that it's a perfectly
>fine game w/o the combos...and frankly, when I play, I rarely use the combos
>and still beat most people...even those who whip out the 10-hitters with ease.
worse than people who play VF2 and choose Jacky and do the same crap
over and over again(flipkick anyone?). I might argue that VF has its
major problems. Can you throw Sarah or Kage in the middle of
their PPPK combo? Can Pai catch someones leg in the middle of a flip
kick? Can you dodge a pounce in VF2(NO, well 99% no). You can do all
this in TK2
>When argued strictly from the combo angle, the button-banger impression is
>left...somewhat rightly in some regards. Yes, there are plenty of things you
>can do to people, but when they are only the same canned combos over and over,
>that's not only boring, it's pathetic. If there's one thing they should take
>out of the game, it's prolly the button-banger mentality of the
>combos...especially when by outword appearances, there seems little strategy
>involved (whether true or not, that's the impression left...and these days,
>impressions are more important than truth)
VF2 these days. Look, I have nothing against VF2, its a nice game, but
unfortunatly its not forever. As soon as Soul Edge and TK3 come out,
which will probably be before VF3 since Sega is waiting until the
VF2 craze is over in Japan, VF2 will probably be dead except for the
VF purists, I can't get anyone to play me down at the university arcade,
and the other arcades have taken it out long ago.
Allen
Boone
VF2>, 'jl...@netcom.com (Lark)' wrote:
>: Tekken 2 has floats (aerial combos) and 10-hit combos (with multiple
guard
>: points so I don't know why people keep swallowing them whole-Lack of
>: skill), VF 2 has floats therefore VF 2 is more complex. Huh????
>
>
>: kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF
2
>: offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
>
>change the gameplay any. The multi-throws are like that overhyped SPoD,
>it has no strategic significance, it's just tack-on damage to reward
>memorizing button presses and blowing quarters on the game just to get the
>timing down. I'm not saying they're useless, they add to the variety and
>overall play enjoyment of the game, but they don't do anything from a
>strategic standpoint.
>
>I hope I don't sound like another VF2 fan ragging on Tekken. While I
>think VF has the best head-to-head game engine around, I also think it's
>overrated with some unacknowledged flaws. There are several things that
>Tekken does better, but more important things that it does worse. I
>actually thought Tekken might beat VF to the true 3D playing engine (ie
>extensive use of lateral movement), but it sounds like Toshinden of all
>games is making the first serious stab at that with the new release. Now
>there's a game with a bad rep to overcome.
On Jan 29, 1996 06:36:53 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
VF2>, 'jl...@netcom.com (Lark)' wrote:
>
>Both games have alot more than that. What makes a 10-hit combo special?
>
>: Tekken 2 has tackle manoeuvers (Inspired, incidentally by UFC and the
>: Gracie Jiujitsu style), VF 2 has ONE move which is
>: kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF
2
>: offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
>
>If you can rush in and tackle you can rush in and throw, it doesn't
>change the gameplay any. The multi-throws are like that overhyped SPoD,
>it has no strategic significance, it's just tack-on damage to reward
>memorizing button presses and blowing quarters on the game just to get the
>timing down. I'm not saying they're useless, they add to the variety and
>overall play enjoyment of the game, but they don't do anything from a
>strategic standpoint.
>
>I hope I don't sound like another VF2 fan ragging on Tekken. While I
>think VF has the best head-to-head game engine around, I also think it's
>overrated with some unacknowledged flaws. There are several things that
>Tekken does better, but more important things that it does worse. I
>actually thought Tekken might beat VF to the true 3D playing engine (ie
>extensive use of lateral movement), but it sounds like Toshinden of all
>games is making the first serious stab at that with the new release. Now
>there's a game with a bad rep to overcome.
There is nothing special or sacred about 10-strings they are just one
feature of the play mechanic/gameplay in TK2 lacking in VF2.
As most of us who are interested in the martial arts know-Most real fights
end up on the ground and a good fight simulator should/must somehow
incorporate that fact yet, as you can imagine, it is tremedously difficult
to do so. What sort of joystick, button action would be necessary to break
out of a leg lock? Nina and Kings multi's as well as the ultimate tackle
represent an attempt (though still rudimentary in my opinion) to respond to
this reality and provide some basic ground fighting and grappling. It is a
feature that I hope to see developed in future fighting games. Earlier
games like TSD and SF involve mainly bashing your body (or fireballs)
against your opponent, with Tekken 2 we are seeing far more complex
interactions between characters and it is definately something to be
encouraged.
The playing engine in both Tekken 2 and VF 2 is lacking in the 3-d
department. Hopefully we will see greater freedom in the next generation
without a sacrifice of gameplay and the addition of too many buttons.
You are correct about VF2 being overrated and having some unacknowledged
flaws. This thread is a "Where's the beef?" challenge to VFfers. The
inflated claims to some sort of magnificent life changing gameplay must be
backed up-Many people apparently, literally don't know what they are
talking about when they make such claims and if that is the case we might
as well be talking about religion rather than something as simple as play
mechanics which should be open to analysis and critique by us mere mortals.
Thanks for your interesting response.
CreeD
>In article <4eg5s4$6...@news1.usa.pipeline.com>, sats...@usa.pipeline.com writes:
>
>I don't know why I'm posting this, but...
>Oh, and before I start, yes I do play TK2 quite often, and am fairly skilled at
>it and do enjoy the game. So none of those "You elitist VF2 bastard" flames.
>> Maybe it's just the Saturn version but the "hitting and falling sounds" in
>> VF2 sound to me like someone banging their fist on wood. As far as
>> characters go I am a love 'em or leave 'em type too. Jacky, Wolf and Jeffry
>> really need some work.
>Eh....the Saturn version is a bit more primitive than the arcade version as far
>as sound and graphics go. It was a rushed job, and is in no way representative
>of the arcade game other than the gameplay and other obvious similarities.
>i.e. Comparing the Saturn version of VF2 to the arcade version of TK2 doesn't
>make much sense unless you're comparing the gamplay and concept. Those are two
>different arenas.
>
>> It is fascinating to me how people try to do the impossible to support VF 2
>> which although it is a good game lacks many of the elements in Tekken 2.
>And TK2 lacks a good deal of the elements of VF2. And apple and a orange are
>both fruits, some people like apples, some people like oranges. I don't whine
>about apples lacking the thick peel of an orange, nor about oranges lacking a
>stem on top.
>> e.g.
>> Tekken 2 has floats (aerial combos) and 10-hit combos (with multiple guard
>> points so I don't know why people keep swallowing them whole-Lack of
>> skill), VF 2 has floats therefore VF 2 is more complex. Huh????
>>
>> Tekken 2 has tackle manoeuvers (Inspired, incidentally by UFC and the
>> Gracie Jiujitsu style), VF 2 has ONE move which is
>> kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF 2
>> offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
>>
cool.. two consecutive thoughtful and intelligent answers regarding
this debate.. . I like it... Kudos to you and any others who take
the time to be a little more diplomatic and realistic in their
postings. I think I fall short in this regard and try too hard to
back it up with examples that are just too specific. It is indeed
apples and oranges and I still fall in with your viewpoint. <although
I like good combos, even if they offer NOTHING to the gameplay>
..
etc.etc.
Again, thanks, couldn'ta said it better myself.
CreeD
>> Well, since you got me started, I'll make a little, teeny
>>argument for VF2. :)
>>
>> VF2 keeps coming out with new twists to the game engine, and
>
>uhhh, such as? new twists? its the same game i've been playing
>since last summer. there are no new twists, I've mastered Kage and
>can easily win on one credit(sometimes two if Akira is in a bad mood)
as in "modified" moves, "c" moves that are similar to m-moves,
taiwan stepping, senbon, okizeme, all that.
you might think you've mastered Kage, who knows, maybe you have. Can
you do the traditional TFToD with b,b+P,PPPK? How about the newer
ones being discussed, with TFT,knee, senbon swipes?
That's just at the purely basic COMBO level. Besides the nice new
combos being discovered there's a lot of new stuff regarding strategy,
like how to deal with a master-level Akira and a Lau m-upkn rush..
besides, beating the game means nothing, I wouldn't have been
impressed if you'd bothered to tack ont hat you did it in expert mode.
Number Four, the Akira player named Akira from Taiwan, reached second
grade with Akira on expert mode, probably one of the harder feats in
any game... it's on tape even...
>When Tekken 2 came out it was a whole new thing. The action
>was fast, the motions were fluid and exciting, now THIS was an
>arcade fighting game. Not like that fighing 'simulator' that sits
>unused in the corner. VF2 seems very sterile, very lifeless in
>comparason to TK2. Also the home version will be a flawless
>translation on PSX (maybe better).
you just have to get used to the pacing and strategy of VF 2. The
virtua concept has been taken to the point where a lot of the flash
that could have been added is forsaken to keep the game more
simulation and strategy than the typical arcade fighter...
The battles get heated and pretty lively on the higher levels, to be
sure. Actually, this whole thread is an echo of another one I have
going comparing SF <whole series> to VF2.
>
>>Tekken2 time releases secret characters (hybrids of the original
>>characters mostly). Speaking of the characters, Tekken 2 has 10 normal
>>and 12 secret characters that are TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
>>Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
>>just plain HORRIBLE.
>
>hmmm, it strongly appears that you have missed the point. There are
>23(25 if you count Angel/Devil and Alex/Roger). This offers the
>closest thing to custom characters in fighting games without actually
>choosing what moves your character gets before the fight. You like
>Law? You also like Paul? Play Lee, who has both their moves. The
>hybrids offer players a chance to choose the character that most
>suits their preferences. There are three variations of Jack-2, each
>with their own unique moves, two of Nina, three of Paul, two of
>Michelle, etc etc etc.... There are 12 solid fighting styles in the
>game(All the original characters plus Baek(Tai Kwon Do) and Ganryu
>(sumo wrestling)).
.. I think you made a point against yourself in conceding that many
of the styles are basically the same or simply hybrids. .I dunno. I
like to learn to adapt to my character of choice and master him ... I
don't like Akira being so powerful in his midlevel attacks and
grappling yet so weak in low level attacksm for instance, but I
wouuldn't want to play any other version of him who fixes these at the
expense of the other moves, or worse yet, fixes these without taking
away from other areas creating <see first post> REALLY overly powerful
characters with bad balance.
>VF2? Ten characters, four of which(Jacky/Sarah, Lau/Pai) who are
>somewhat similar(have same basic kicks,punches; share a few other
>special movements.) that makes only six REALLY different characters.
They share, at best, a few basics and specials, like PPPK or G+K or
d+G+K with pai and lau. the playing styles are FAR different however,
Pai can't even begin to imitate lau's rushes, and there's nobody like
Akira or Kage. .. Jacky and Sarah may or may not play similarly in
terms of offense, I don't play enough of either to know. I think Shun
and Lion play much differently, and surprisingly, even wolf and
jeffry..the most similar characters to each other by far.
>Sure the Japanese love the game. I've traveled there and stood in
>line for 20 min just to lose 4 rounds out of seven(I did get him
>twice). People stand around in the streets outside the arcades to
>watch the fights on big screens. Its a cultural icon, WAY surpassing
>the minor DOOM craze over here. Sega isn't even going to release
>VF3 until they are sure that it won't infringe on their VF2 profits
>and I can't blame them. Unfortunatly for Sega of America, that means
>they'll have to wait probably a year before VF3 hits our shores, and
>since VF2 isn't nearly as big over here, that hurts both SOA and
>American arcades.
>
>whoops this became a Sega bashing post, sorry.
aww, that's okay, you're pretty much right anyway.
Ansell Christopher James
to VF2, is ACTUALLY A PLAYSTATION ENGINE!
Let's see saturn get the kind of accuracy of tek2 with vf2. Nowhere close.
I do accept that tekken2 has more preprogrammed combosm but over time you
learn to make your own, just like vf2. All combo's i use in tekken
have progressed to home-made types.
cheers
Jirawat Uttayaya
Boone <sats...@usa.pipeline.com> wrote:
>On Jan 29, 1996 06:40:11 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
>VF2>, 'do...@umd.umich.edu (Douglas William Cole)' wrote:
>
>
>game that I perhaps didn't see before. I still believe that Tekken 2 offers
>overwhelmingly more complex gameplay and I have given arguments to show
>this for which there has not yet been a serious refutation. I am beginning
>to realize that from some peoples mouths statements about VF2 are to be
>given the same credibility as religious statements. If someone said "God
>spoke to me this morning" we would understand that that person had a
>powerful emotional experience but we would not necessarily conclude that
>God ACTUALLY spoke to the person or even that God exists. Likewise when
>some people say "VF2 has superior gameplay" they are completely unable to
>quantify or elaborate on the supposedly great "gameplay" but they exist
>that it is there with religious fervour. Most of us aetheists have nothing
>invested in God or VF2 so we can try to assess what IS there and what
>ISN'T. I understand your satement that "VF2 is way better" as being a
>statement regarding your emotional attitude in regards to VF2. It does
>nothing to advance the debate here though.
If I remember your arguments correctly Boone, all you have stated in
support of Tekken's "more complex gameplay" is that you can do more
"stuph", ie 10 hits, tackles, multi-throws, etc. That is as fallacious
as saying Monopoly(TM) is more complex that chess because it has more
game pieces. Many other have already responded more eloquently than I
about this point. And while on the surface Tekken 2 may appear to
have more "stuph", in actuality its precanned nature reduces your
options. In other words, while Tekken 2 may have more moves,
VF2 present more ways to uses its moves.
I think main flaw of Tekken 2 can be summed up in one word: constraint.
Tekken 2 often times forces you into its predefined sequence. Take
for example running. When you run towards someone in Tekken 2, you are
locked into Tekken 2 running options, ie. tackle, slide, stop. In VF2,
running towards your opponent does not limit your options in any way.
You still have your full range of of moves and throws. With 10 hits,
you are limited by two options, do or do not. Either you do the sequence
or you don't. With guard canceling in VF2, you have the option either
to continue with the precanned combo or switch to a regular attack.
With Tekken 2 multi-throws, if you mess up the motion of your multi-throw
the sequence stops and the initiator just moves away. While VF2 one has
one multi-throw, the SPoD, if Akira messes up the first part of the SPoD,
can try to reverse, block, run away, attack, throw, etc. Likewise, the
victim can try to reverse, block, run away, attack, throw, etc. If
Akira messes up the second part of the SPoD, a whole new world of turn
around attacks is opened. VF2 does not force you to only perform certain
actions.
Another level of complexity of VF2 is that attacks affect different
opponents differently. Lau's sidekick has different effects depending
whether his opponent is Pai, Akira, or Jeffry. Certain combos and moves
affect certain opponents and not others. Thus not only must you
know yourself but also your opponent.
This, combined with other Tekken 2 flaws like auto-block and sparklies,
clear shows VF2 game mechanics as "more complex" in the very least.
However Tekken 2 gameplay is still pretty good and it's fun to play.
The only thing I'm saying is VF2 game mechanics takes more thought
and insight. While I personally prefer those types of games, your
mileage may vary.
Sincerely,
Jirawat Uttayaya a.k.a. Peaking Duck
Colin Leong
>It is fascinating to me how people try to do the impossible to support VF 2
>which although it is a good game lacks many of the elements in Tekken 2.
>e.g.
>Tekken 2 has floats (aerial combos) and 10-hit combos (with multiple guard
>points so I don't know why people keep swallowing them whole-Lack of
>skill), VF 2 has floats therefore VF 2 is more complex. Huh????
bs. you're trying to shrink the whole VF2-TK2 depth argument into one
statement, leaving out tactics development and a whole lot of other
stuff. i don't see new techniques being discussed for TK2. just new
combos and mostly stringed move patterns. VF2, on the other hand, has
new techniques and tactics popping up every now and then. such as:
run in and throw. holding F for deeper punches. G-cancelling.
counters and interrupts. uncounterable moves and what to do with
them. foot positioning and stance. anti-RO tactics. staggering and
how to deal with it, what do do with it. reversals and how to deal
with them. oki-zeme. modified moves. kick-cancelling. senbon.
crouch dashing.
that's most of it, but not all.
would someone please counter that for the case of TK2? being
originally VF2-biased, i know i won't present a good picture of TK2
complexity.
>Tekken 2 has tackle manoeuvers (Inspired, incidentally by UFC and the
>Gracie Jiujitsu style), VF 2 has ONE move which is
>kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF 2
>offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
you're oversimplifying. having tackle manoeuvers implies more varied
gameplay? puh-leease. then i might as well say, the fact that VF2
has RO but TK2 has no RO makes TK2 boring? you know as well as i that
this sort of reasoning hardly makes an argument.
>If your logical reasoning takes the form of the above too patterns then it
>is possible to defend the idea that VF2 offers more complex gameplay.
if -your- logical reasoning only lets you see pro-VF2 arguments in
said two patterns, then it is obvious that you need a quick cuppa
before replying.
i say again. someone PLEASE bring up the case for Tekken2 gameplay
and complexity (preferably without the anti-VF2 statements in place)
so that we can have a better basis for comparison. facts, please, and
don't even bother to mention the endlessly-debated graphics.
--
Colin Leong
- Co...@MAILHOST.NET
- leo...@singnet.com.sg
know what you know and also what you know not... that is true knowledge.
L. Granquist
[snip]
>>> VF2? Ten characters, four of which(Jacky/Sarah, Lau/Pai) who are
>>> somewhat similar(have same basic kicks,punches; share a few other
>>> special movements.) that makes only six REALLY different characters.
>>
>>Okay....now that's a bit *too* general. If you are really experienced w/ VF2,
>>then you cannot truly believe that. Granted, there are a few similarities,
>>but, the characters are quite different in strategy and gameplay. If you
>>really *do* believe that, then I doubt your measure of experience...or you need
>>to play new people.
>
>I was talking about the number of fighting styles, and BTW, I've seen
>people who can go from Lau to Pai and do the excact same stuff!
>YES, I will admit that Sarah and Jacky are as different as night and
>day(Sarah = speed, Jacky = Power) but a lot of their basics look and
>feel alike, I went from Sarah to Jacky(never played Jacky before) and
>did pretty good. As for strategies, most Jeffrey and Wolf players do
>a lot of the same stuff, and there are similarities between many
>Lau and Pai players.
Maybe on the surface Pai and Lau have some simular looking moves,
but these characters need to be played very differently. Pai has a wider
range of throws including the cartwheel rollover (a crouchthrow),
reversals, speed. On the downside, she can be floated and R.O.ed easily
and her moves are low damege. Lau on the other hand, is the master of
floats and combos. He is slower, but he is harder to float. Lacking
reversals and good throws, good Lau players will concentrate on trying for
floats. Pai players do not have a good move for floats. Many playing
styles that work well for Pai do not work at all for Lau. The "Pecker" Pai
strategy (peck away at your apponent with quick annoying moves) does not
work well with Lau because he is too slow for this. The "Throwhappy
Defensive" Pai strategy (Defend and counterthrow) does not work well with
Lau because his throws are slowr and not as damaging. Pai can also Psych
her opponents out with reversals, she is better at interrupting attacks
than Lau and a Pai that does quick dashs back and forth can sometimes
confuse players causing them to attack her when she is just out of range.
None of these stratagys work well for Lau. Once, I accidently selected
Lau, and I found him difficult and awkward.
The beauty of VF2, is that we get ten characters that are very
different but very balanced. Each one must be played very differently in
order to do well. Everyone can develope there own playing styles based
on the strengths and weaknesses of their characters.
>
>Let me get one last thing straight. I play VF2. I play Tekken.
>More people can give me a good game at Tekken than VF2, partially
>because no one plays VF2. VF2 has become dull because of said fact.
>Tekken remains fun and enjoyable because people play it. No one
>plays VF2 at the University of Alabama at Birmingham's Arcade.
>There, I've said it. I can't speak for other USA arcades(out of
>state) but the general consensus i'm getting says that VF2 is on
>the decline, and I'm pointing out why I think people are attracted
>to Tekken 2 when VF2 costs the same and is in the same room.
>The arcade staff may drop VF2 to 1 to start 1 to continue, maybe
>that will bring people back to it. I'll be the first in line.
>But right now Tekken is beating it, and I am supporting it because
>I get more entertainment out of it than VF2.
Every successful video game goes on the same cycle. It is
released, it becomes popular it peaks, and then it declines in popularity.
VF2 has been out for over a year and is on the decline. Tekken2 is still
new, so it is just peaking. When VF3 comes out, it will be the start of a
new cycle and it will be the most popular. But, regardless of popularity,
VF2 is a game that allows for deeper stratagy than any other game out
there. It has the tightest mechanics of any game out there and it is the
most balanced, most fair and the hardest to be cheap in.
All I can say is play the game you enjoy the most. If you like
stratagy, play VF2. If you like glitz, play Tekken2.
David Aldridge
Ansell Christopher James (jc...@wumpus.cc.uow.edu.au) writes:
> One thing you have forgotten is the fact that Tekken2, in endless comparisons
> to VF2, is ACTUALLY A PLAYSTATION ENGINE!
> Let's see saturn get the kind of accuracy of tek2 with vf2. Nowhere close.
Is there supposed to be a point to that? The PlayStation game started on
a PlayStation Engine, while the Saturn game started out on an engine more
complex than any console on the market. That neither affects how good the
actual game is or how good of a port it is.
I, like many others, prefer the gameplay of VF2 (Saturn or arcade) over
either TEKKEN game on either system. The fact that a game I enjoyed less
shares the same feats and faults of the arcade game is completely
irrelevant.
Lark
: In article <jlarkDL...@netcom.com>, jl...@netcom.com (Lark) writes:
:
: > Tekken does do one thing better: it has grappling/reversal
: > and reversals, making a high damage throw attempt no more risky than a
: > jab usually.
: Yea...but the close-ups seem distracting to me....sure, it's tres' cool the
: first few times, but after awhile, I wish I could hit a button to skip the
: animation.
I didn't phrase that properly, I meant Tekken has grappling/reversal
animation even when they miss... you wouldn't want to skip that since,
unlike VF2, your opponent is very vulnerable if they botch a throw
attempt (as they should be).
One thing that bugs me about when Tekken's throw attemps hit is
the frame skip from whatever the opponent was doing to the animation
sequence of the particular throw. Maybe that's why VF2 doesn't do
grapple animation, since it gives a few extra frames for the opponent to
resume a standard stance after the throw is registered, making it look
smoother once it's executed. In Tekken arms, legs, and even the torso
can be in all sorts of odd positions, but once the grapplers arms appear
around them the program is forced to go directly to the throw animation,
otherwise it would look like everyone hugged each other reassuringly for
a few seconds before throwing them. Overall I still like Tekken's way
better.
-Lark
Peter N Ivanov
|> I am getting sick of hearing VF2 'purists' whinge about tekken 1+2
|> lack of gameplay tactics. What total BULLSHIT!
I do not know whether I am a VF2 purist by whatever definition you use, but I
definitely notice a lack of discussions of Tekken2 tactics in this newsgroup.
(Apart from hundreds of posting saying that Tekken2 has them)
|> I once agreed with this statement, but then i thought about it. My
|> mate and i play tekken (psx) all the time, and i have had to employ
|> every possible nina combo and air-combo to outwit his own gameplay
|> modification. You just dont run back and forth and press the throw
|> button every now and then!!!
Sure, sure... you must be the hundreth person saying this. If only at least
one of them had bothered to actually say something substantial. I have been
trying to collect info about Tekken 2, and all I've got from 3 weeks on
this newsgroup falls into the following categories:
- combo listings without attack levels or descriptions of what the movements
of the character look like
- timing of the multithrows
- 'strategies' of the type 'do this and that often, it is very hard to block, if
they block it, they are very good'
- stuff I could not care less about - how to beat the CPU easily, whether the
poster likes the graphics or not, why Vf2 sucks, why Tekken 2 sucks, who is
a moron, and who has never played the respective game.
- really interesting, but generally unanswered questions about dealing with
stuff the poster considers cheasy or hard to deal with. (unless you count
'You moron, if you were skilled you would not have a problem' as an answer)
- others - five articles on how to deal with Lei, Law, and Baek's hard-to-handle
tricks - unfortunately the people how seem to know what they are talking about
are not very confident that the advice works against good Baek/Law players.
|> Tekken has all the same essential
|> gameplay elements as vf2, ie high-low blocks, stun, air attacks,
|> throws, reversals etc etc.
That's true, Tekken has them all, but they do not seem to be important,
at least not in any of the arcades I've played Tekken, nor in the articles
posted in this newsgroup.
|> And the fact that tekken 2 is the most
|> talked about game on here suggests it is not short on graphic appeal
|> either. I am sure vf3 will blow everything away, but then i will wait
|> for tekken 3 on system 22.
Excuse me, but this is simply not true. A simple search through the
articles on my server revealed, two days ago, that the first topic is
'PCs vs consoles', VF2 with a bit more than half the postings of the VS crap,
and Tekken with less that half of VF2's postings. I would get the numbers if I
had them on hand here, but I do not. If somebody questions them, I will
post them. (I did the search on subject lines only and on the containts, and
the ratio did not change significantly)
(BTW, remember that VF2 has been out for nearly one year and a half -
VF2 and Tekken 1 came out simultaniously)
|> Just don't get the idea that tekken has no depth, because if you play
|> a good player over and over, you NEED to acquire every subtle move
|> you can. (that jirawat dude can't stop ragging on tekken! it's annoying
|> man!)
|> keg
I can believe this, but why is no one posting anything 'deep'? Even something
as simple as the attack levels, or the interrupt points of the simple
combos.
I really want to learn playing the game, but I do not seem to be able
to get a nice flying start the way I did with VF and Vf2. It is not an
attack against the peopel who play Tekken, but they seem much less interested
in discussing the whole of TK2's VS tactics than the VF2 crowd is to discuss, for
example, how to get maximum damage/distance from a specific move.
Anyway... If I ever come up with something that looks like worth mentioning, I
will post it, and it it is common knowledge to all you TK2 gurus, it will not be
my fault for not guessing that it is trivial.
Peter
Peter N Ivanov
|> I've watched the TK/VF debate for soem time now, so just let me add my
|> 2 cents here.
|> I'm a TK2 player, and only watched VF2. So my views might be biased.
|> This post is not intended to bash VF.
|>
|> IMHO, both games are 'similar'. Both are polygon fighters.
|> People know more about VF2 because it has been out longer.
|> They did not go into the 'deep' strategies until it was released
|> for quite sometime.
This is not quite true. There had been discussions of VF2 tactics for
three months before the first machines came to the States.
|> Was the game intended to require more strategy than any other?
|> And for those VFers who are so hyped up about 'crouch dashing'
|> and 'SPoD', do you really think that these moves are intended
|> to be there?
I guess I am a VF2 heretic, because I think that no matter whether they
were intended to be in, they shoudl not. Crouch dashing for me is as
damaging to the 'feel' of a VF2 game as are the dalayed jumps. The same
goes for the Akira's 10g accelerations.
|> If they are...doesn't that make Akira more powerful than anyone else,
|> and thus throw off the 'balance' of the game?
I guess it does, but my opinion might be biased as Joji&Akira is the
only combination to which I consistantly lose in VF2.
|> And I believe someone said that "there is NO delay after moves in TK",
|> that is just total BS. The more damaging the move is...the more delay
|> it has! You can't whiff a powerful attack without being punished,
|> I'm sure VF is just like that too.
|>
|> I think this is developing into a Vf/TK flame war...
|> Can't we all just get along? =)
Search me. I posted an innocent article asking for pointers on starting to
play Tekken. It spawned three different VF/TK flame threads, degenerated
itself into one, but got me only two emails, one giving me WWW links to Faqs,
and another including two articles on strategy (unfortunately they were of
the 'Do Foo alot, if they block it, they're too good' variety.)
Peter
Boone
VF2>, 'ZU0...@uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu (Allen Dickerson)' wrote:
>> Well, since you got me started, I'll make a little, teeny
>>argument for VF2. :)
>>
>> VF2 keeps coming out with new twists to the game engine, and
>
>uhhh, such as? new twists? its the same game i've been playing
>since last summer. there are no new twists, I've mastered Kage and
>can easily win on one credit(sometimes two if Akira is in a bad mood)
>
>was fast, the motions were fluid and exciting, now THIS was an
>arcade fighting game. Not like that fighing 'simulator' that sits
>unused in the corner. VF2 seems very sterile, very lifeless in
>comparason to TK2. Also the home version will be a flawless
>translation on PSX (maybe better).
I finished a major project today so to celebrate I spent about 3 hours in
the local arcade. Usually the two Tekken machines are surrounded with
people but today they weren't. I soon found out why, the guys that were on
them were total masters-Everything from aerial combos to 10-strings to
heyi'veneverseenthatmovebefore these guys were so good it didn't even make
sense to even try to fight them. Given this situation a well-sized VF2
tourne broke out for the first time in a long time. Going back to VF 2
turned out to quite an experience-I was shocked by how slow and jerky the
characters felt, the gameplay seemed to be a monotony of stepping backwards
and forwards to trade punches and throws. The punches and kicks seemed to
totally lack impact, totally "mmmph" free. I ended up quitting VF 2 not
because I wasn't winning but out of sheer boredom. I spent the last 2 hours
battling and losing to the TK2 experts. I have never lost so much in a day
but I also can't remember having so many good, edge-of-'yer-seat fights.
They can have the simulator I'll stick to my F16!
Allen Dickerson
>statement, leaving out tactics development and a whole lot of other
>stuff. i don't see new techniques being discussed for TK2. just new
>combos and mostly stringed move patterns. VF2, on the other hand, has
>new techniques and tactics popping up every now and then. such as:
>
Jacky's beast fist is just two old moves that work well together.
The Taiwan step is too. So whats the difference? If I named
Baek's Flamingo kick into a launching kick followed up by three
floating kicks the "Korean Krunch" it would be the same f*cking
thing as a "Taiwan Step" or any other 'new and exciting' technique.
You are still limited by the number of things your character can
do. Go play Baek or Lee on TK2. Press 3,4,4,3,4,3 He'll do a
combo. Now press 3,4,3,3,3 and he'll do a different one. Ok,
now try 3,3,3 Hey! another totally different combo! Play Jack,
do his overhead hammer and you can follow up with several different
motions. Nina has about five or six things she can do after the
flip kick. In VF2 you are limited to punches and Kicks. In TK2
I can tackle, bodyslam, break your arm, jumpkick, slide into you,
have MANY more options when getting up, multithrows, More jumping
attacks, and each character ON AVERAGE has about 40 or 50 more
individual moves than their VF counterparts. When I say you
are limited to punches and kicks I mean that there arn't enough
basic moves available to everyone. In real life anyone would be
able to dive at someone but in VF2 only Kage can. VF2 limits your
playing in ways you can't understand because VFers have the
mentality of 'lego blocks' as in everything is linkable. Well
as a part-time VFer myself I can tell you there are times when
I just can't penetrate someone's defenses. They counter or
block everything I can come up with, and I know a LOT of Kage
techniques. In TK2 there is always something I can do to
mix it up just enough to keep an opponent at bay. I can press
an attack (which is quite difficult in VF2 without pouncing)
by hitting them when they are on the ground, I have easy throws,
which don't do alot and tougher throws that do major damage but
leave me open to attack, I can switch combos during a furious
exchange(going from Anna's d/f+3,4 to her d/f+3,2,1 or her
d/f 4,3) I have many more options to keep my opponent guessing.
>run in and throw. holding F for deeper punches. G-cancelling.
>counters and interrupts. uncounterable moves and what to do with
>them. foot positioning and stance. anti-RO tactics. staggering and
>how to deal with it, what do do with it. reversals and how to deal
>with them. oki-zeme. modified moves. kick-cancelling. senbon.
>crouch dashing.
>that's most of it, but not all.
>
counter a punch or kick(or sword:), interrupt a combo, do an
uncounterable move, stagger and stun tactics, counter a reverse,
cancel many attacks(Baek's flammingo, Nina's Hunting Swan), PLUS
running in and tackling, jumpkicking, sliding, shoulder ram, even
step on them if they are stupid enough not to roll away. While
on the ground I can roll to the side OR the invaluable getting up
quickly. The only thing VF has that TK2 doesn't from your list is
Ring Outs and foot stances, which I might add doesn't matter THAT
much in the course of a standard VF game. Holding guard will
stop a high right kick the same as a high left, and last time I
looked, Pai can catch both of them. Sure it adds a minor bit to
the game, but not that much. As for the rest of the list, those
of course are specific to VF2, much like the "Korean Krunch"
is specific to TK2.
Answer me this though, what exactly do you mean by 'modified
moves'?
>would someone please counter that for the case of TK2? being
>originally VF2-biased, i know i won't present a good picture of TK2
>complexity.
>
>
>gameplay? puh-leease. then i might as well say, the fact that VF2
>has RO but TK2 has no RO makes TK2 boring? you know as well as i that
>this sort of reasoning hardly makes an argument.
>
base of standard moves, which in turn results in more options.
>>If your logical reasoning takes the form of the above too patterns then it
>>is possible to defend the idea that VF2 offers more complex gameplay.
>
>if -your- logical reasoning only lets you see pro-VF2 arguments in
>said two patterns, then it is obvious that you need a quick cuppa
>before replying.
>
when you listed all these great wonderful VF achievements, then it
is obvious that you need to invest more than .50 in TK2, but this
time wait for that guy who kicked your butt to get off the machine
first.
>i say again. someone PLEASE bring up the case for Tekken2 gameplay
>and complexity (preferably without the anti-VF2 statements in place)
>so that we can have a better basis for comparison. facts, please, and
>don't even bother to mention the endlessly-debated graphics.
color in VF2 is nice.
If only we had a game that had VF2 graphics and Tekken Motion and
the best features of each! uh, SOUL EDGE!!! Heh heh.
(actually I haven't played it yet, but I've heard rumors....)
Boone
VF2>, 'gu...@umich.edu (Ken K. Lee)' wrote:
>I'm not trying to take
>anything away from Tekken 2 -- but you give me the opportunity to choose
>which one I'd play, I'll take VF2 over Tekken 2 any day.
into centipede and pac-man-This is totally cool with me. I play the games I
like and I think that everyone else should too.One of the things that
pissed me off initially was the dismissive attitude of some VFfers towards
TK2 but having discussed it, it is pretty clear to me that any serious
analysis shows TK2 to have greater depth and variety of gameplay-This is an
objective truth, the system/play mechanics are substantially more complex.
The subjective question of what people like/choose to play is completely is
completely different. VF 2 playersmorepower2ya! TK 2 playersmorepower2ya2.
Allen Dickerson
Cr...@ucla.edu (CreeD) writes:
>you might think you've mastered Kage, who knows, maybe you have. Can
>you do the traditional TFToD with b,b+P,PPPK? How about the newer
>ones being discussed, with TFT,knee, senbon swipes?
for a while, never quite got the knee into senbon swipes but i'll
go try it sometimes now that you've brought it up. These days I
usually just let them hit the ground because I don't want to be
called 'cheap' for doing 'easy' stuff. It ain't easy....
>That's just at the purely basic COMBO level. Besides the nice new
>combos being discovered there's a lot of new stuff regarding strategy,
>like how to deal with a master-level Akira and a Lau m-upkn rush..
>
player around (haven't seen him in a while though) wasn't worth
crap, would just knife hand me and I would block or dodge and open
a big ol' can of ten ft. toss whup ass on him and watch him fly.
>besides, beating the game means nothing, I wouldn't have been
>impressed if you'd bothered to tack ont hat you did it in expert mode.
>Number Four, the Akira player named Akira from Taiwan, reached second
>grade with Akira on expert mode, probably one of the harder feats in
>any game... it's on tape even...
>
>
>you just have to get used to the pacing and strategy of VF 2. The
>virtua concept has been taken to the point where a lot of the flash
>that could have been added is forsaken to keep the game more
>simulation and strategy than the typical arcade fighter...
>The battles get heated and pretty lively on the higher levels, to be
>sure. Actually, this whole thread is an echo of another one I have
>going comparing SF <whole series> to VF2.
>
TK2. Even Toshinden2 is quicker paced. In VF2, there are
moments of furious fighting, but then the pace gets real slow
after a knockdown. In TK2, this ain't no children's game, it
gets fast and stays fast.
Street Fighter to VF2?!?!? well I guess it could be done.
>
[stuff about hybrid characters deleted]
>.. I think you made a point against yourself in conceding that many
>of the styles are basically the same or simply hybrids. .I dunno. I
>like to learn to adapt to my character of choice and master him ... I
>don't like Akira being so powerful in his midlevel attacks and
>grappling yet so weak in low level attacksm for instance, but I
>wouuldn't want to play any other version of him who fixes these at the
>expense of the other moves, or worse yet, fixes these without taking
>away from other areas creating <see first post> REALLY overly powerful
>characters with bad balance.
>
but allows you to custom tailor your style based on previous experience
with other characters. Not only are there more UNIQUE styles than
VF2, there are also that many more VARIATIONS on the Unique styles.
This absolutely can't be used as an argument against TK2 it can ONLY
be a strong point. Now if there were only 3 styles and a bunch of
variations, you would have a point..... but.....
**UNRELATED TO GAME PLAY ON***
What other game offers you this flexibility? You have a host of
different characters to pick from. In VF2 you have 10, in tekken
you have 23 different characters. Gameplay aside, you actually have
over 50 different characters if you like to customize appearance.
Different costumes, colors, even a Kangaroo or Lizard and a Demon
or an Angel! Far beyond VF2's slightly different outfits and
color scemes.
** VF2 Oooh, Blue Ninja, Orange Ninja, look! Pai changes hats!
** TK2 Take a look at Heihachi's or Ninas or Lei's and you will
be impressed on how many options you have for your character.
***UNRELATED TO GAMEPLAY OFF***
There isn't any 'bad balance' in TK2's secret characters! Hell some
of them are weaker! (Kunimitsu comes to mind) Wouldn't you like to
have more options than your ten characters? I would love to see
VF2 with something like 20 characters and variants on the original
ones. Like another Ninja who has different moves or another 5 animal
southern shaolin system(monkey would be cool). But NOOOO, VF3 will
have only two new characters, a 'big guy' as the Sega rep put it,
and a Japanese girl(Akira's Sister I think). I want to see real
Tai Kwon Do in VF3, would make Sarah's shadow kicks look like
crap. I also want to see some Japanese Karate and perhaps Sumo,
(it seems like all the styles are chinese or something else besides
Japanese, only Kage practices a Japanese art, and even Akira's art
originated in China!) I would also like to see the original
characters brought up to the Shun and Lion level for motion....
actually I want to see the originals brought up to the Tekken2
level!
>>VF2? Ten characters, four of which(Jacky/Sarah, Lau/Pai) who are
>>somewhat similar(have same basic kicks,punches; share a few other
>>special movements.) that makes only six REALLY different characters.
>
> They share, at best, a few basics and specials, like PPPK or G+K or
>d+G+K with pai and lau. the playing styles are FAR different however,
>Pai can't even begin to imitate lau's rushes, and there's nobody like
>Akira or Kage. .. Jacky and Sarah may or may not play similarly in
>terms of offense, I don't play enough of either to know. I think Shun
>and Lion play much differently, and surprisingly, even wolf and
>jeffry..the most similar characters to each other by far.
>
not wording it right. I wanted to say Tekken has 12 different styles
and VF2 has only 6. Sarah/Jacky and Pai/Lau are very different but
they use the same styles. No two martial artists are the same in
real life.
>
>
Allen
Abbott Wang
: Isn't a technique or new tactic just a stringed out move pattern?
: Jacky's beast fist is just two old moves that work well together.
: The Taiwan step is too. So whats the difference? If I named
: Baek's Flamingo kick into a launching kick followed up by three
: floating kicks the "Korean Krunch" it would be the same f*cking
: thing as a "Taiwan Step" or any other 'new and exciting' technique.
: You are still limited by the number of things your character can
: do. Go play Baek or Lee on TK2. Press 3,4,4,3,4,3 He'll do a
: combo. Now press 3,4,3,3,3 and he'll do a different one. Ok,
: now try 3,3,3 Hey! another totally different combo! Play Jack,
those are different combos, but they are preprogrammed. in vf2, there
are very few preprogrammed combos, which allows the player to either
interrupt their current pre-programmed combo with a g-cancel, or just do
another move which attempst o change the attack level.
in tk2, the pre-programmed combos signals the oppoennt to where to block
next. in vf2, it is much more difficult since the oppoennt have the
option of doing any of his characters moves.
: I can tackle, bodyslam, break your arm, jumpkick, slide into you,
tackling is very similar to running in an throw.. you can bodyslam in
vf2. you can break backs in vf2, but thats just another move, and so is
breaking arms. you can jumpkick in vf2. sliding is done by a rising
attack :)
: have MANY more options when getting up, multithrows, More jumping
i wouldnt say that tekken 2 has many more options of getting up. in
vf2, there are 24 ways to get up. multi-throws are coool, but if you
know the counter, it makes it kinda useless.
my friend doesnt know the counters, and just tries all 4 possible
ocunters and ususally breaks out of my nina multis
: attacks, and each character ON AVERAGE has about 40 or 50 more
: individual moves than their VF counterparts. When I say you
: are limited to punches and kicks I mean that there arn't enough
: basic moves available to everyone. In real life anyone would be
check out the faq, youll see A LOT of basic moves...just as much if not
way more than tekken2. the tekken2 faq lists a lot of the comobos, which
you and i dont consider basic movees, right?
: able to dive at someone but in VF2 only Kage can. VF2 limits your
: playing in ways you can't understand because VFers have the
: mentality of 'lego blocks' as in everything is linkable. Well
: as a part-time VFer myself I can tell you there are times when
: I just can't penetrate someone's defenses. They counter or
you cant penetrate someone's defenses? if you arent playing no4, then i
doubt you know all the moves..
: block everything I can come up with, and I know a LOT of Kage
: techniques. In TK2 there is always something I can do to
i bet there are even more kage techniques which you DO NOT know.
: mix it up just enough to keep an opponent at bay. I can press
: an attack (which is quite difficult in VF2 without pouncing)
: by hitting them when they are on the ground, I have easy throws,
: which don't do alot and tougher throws that do major damage but
: leave me open to attack, I can switch combos during a furious
: exchange(going from Anna's d/f+3,4 to her d/f+3,2,1 or her
: d/f 4,3) I have many more options to keep my opponent guessing.
isnt this similar to g-canceling and doing another attack in vf2? sure,
it doenst flow as well as tekken2, but it isnt pre-programmed either..in
your case, you listed only 3 options, in vf2, you can do any of the
charactes moves after g-canceling
: In TK2 I can run in and throw, hold d/f for a deeper punch,
: counter a punch or kick(or sword:), interrupt a combo, do an
: uncounterable move, stagger and stun tactics, counter a reverse,
: cancel many attacks(Baek's flammingo, Nina's Hunting Swan), PLUS
: running in and tackling, jumpkicking, sliding, shoulder ram, even
: step on them if they are stupid enough not to roll away. While
you can run then pounch in vf2, and i mentioned before, youcan run and
throw, and do a attack
: on the ground I can roll to the side OR the invaluable getting up
: quickly. The only thing VF has that TK2 doesn't from your list is
: Ring Outs and foot stances, which I might add doesn't matter THAT
: much in the course of a standard VF game. Holding guard will
stance maaters a lot, trying throwing your oppoennet in open stace...try
elbowing lion in closed stance...
: stop a high right kick the same as a high left, and last time I
: looked, Pai can catch both of them. Sure it adds a minor bit to
: the game, but not that much. As for the rest of the list, those
: of course are specific to VF2, much like the "Korean Krunch"
: is specific to TK2.
hhold back in tk2 will block a high right kick the same as a high left.
nina, jun, or paul can reverse those as well.. whats the point?
:
: Answer me this though, what exactly do you mean by 'modified
: moves'?
modified moves are a way of doing moves that normally require youy to
crouch first. by BUFFERING in a crouch dash, we can immediately do this
move from a what seems like standing position.. the crouch is done quickly.
: As stated above, things like tackling give each character a larger :
: base of standard moves, which in turn results in more options.
when you run, yuou are limited to stepping, tackling, ramming. in vf2,
you can run
and pounch, or throw, or stop and do any of the characters attcks. :
btw, i enjoying playing tk2, and i think its a great game, but i simply
think that vf2 offers more strategy and options.
of course, all IMHO
laters
ABb
Abbott Wang Send e-mail to rubi...@sas.upenn.edu
University of Pennsylvania with a subject of GET LIST
wan...@futures.wharton.upenn.edu (215)417-1108
abb...@halcyon.resnet.upenn.edu Wharton '96
CHECK OUT MY WWW PAGE @ http://futures.wharton.upenn.edu/~wang57
*******************************************************************************
"mmmmmm, I'd do ANYTHING for a drop of sweet beer..."
--- Homer Simpson
*******************************************************************************
For a list of my DATs, please send e-mail to rubi...@sas.upenn.edu
with a subject of GET LIST.
sats...@usa.pipeline.com
VF2>, 'pols...@hal.lamar.edu (JON HICKMAN)' wrote:
>As long as TK2's merits are argued from the combo angle, then, yes, KI w/
>throws is a very accurate assesment. The problem is, that it's a
perfectly
>fine game w/o the combos...and frankly, when I play, I rarely use the
combos
>and still beat most people...even those who whip out the 10-hitters with
ease.
>When argued strictly from the combo angle, the button-banger impression is
>left...somewhat rightly in some regards. Yes, there are plenty of things
you
>can do to people, but when they are only the same canned combos over and
over,
>
>that's not only boring, it's pathetic. If there's one thing they should
take
>out of the game, it's prolly the button-banger mentality of the
>combos...especially when by outword appearances, there seems little
strategy
>involved (whether true or not, that's the impression left...and these
days,
>impressions are more important than truth)
that but nevertheless let me address it for a 'mo.
Wanna hear a secret? I've been playing Tekken for over a year now and I
know one (Yes, uno, ichi,hitotsu dake) 10-string combo, I never use it
because it's the one for a character I don't play. 10-strings are gravy,
they add to the game because they are impressive and show the skill of the
character they also force you to learn and use dynamic guarding techniques.
They are not, however, the core of gameplay in most fights BECAUSE knowing
a ten string is no guarantee of victory. Ideally, to be well-rounded one
would want to learn your characters 10-string but often it is impractical
in real battle. I find it amusing that people have moved from criticising a
game for what it lacks to criticising it for what it HAS. 10-strings are
cool, Tekken 2 has pre-programmed combos ala KI but because it is a 3-d
game and because of guarding options you are not obliged to simply sit
there and take the punishment. You can kick someone out of it, guard
through it, you can even jump behind them and clobber them. Tekken 2 also
has do-it-'yerself combos ala VF2 only better because left and right limbs
are controlled independently and specials can be thrown in for good
measure. All in all the system in Tekken 2 is much more mature than that
present in VF 2 which is to be expected since VF2 is older and suffers from
having two buttons to control the limbs (Last time I checked most of us had
four limbs, aiming for the amputee market?).
Sitson Lee
: >> uhhh, such as? new twists? its the same game i've been playing
: >> since last summer. there are no new twists, I've mastered Kage and
: >> can easily win on one credit(sometimes two if Akira is in a bad mood)
: >
: >Mastered? I doubt it. Beating the game has little to do with mastery. Very
: >little.
:
: Oh yeah, I forgot that you pulled out your copy of the universal
: VF guide to whose hot and whose not and looked me up.(pg 4;rating 2
: out of 5)Have you seen me play? Then don't make an opinion till you do.
: Noone can beat me down at the local arcade. Not even the machine.
: I define 'mastery' as you so smugly put it as someone who can't
: be beaten. Maybe a better word would be , I am 'unbeatable' with
: Kage, and perhaps I will tack on, 'where I play' Satisfied?
: Or perhaps I could say I am the 'master' of the local VF.
: Either way your last comment was pretty invalid and could be
: considered an attack on me, which one VFer said that all VFers
: 'never' do. So thanks for proving him wrong.
That's a very heavy title to give yourself, when you've not been any
tournament to prove your point.
I play TK2 just for the hell of it. I get easy win streaks against local
guys who I see play the machine everyday and could almost finish the CPU.
Hmmm.... Does that suggest anything about how good the game is? Tell you
guys, I'm a button masher when I use Baek. Left Kick, Right Kick, Right
Kick, Left Kick etc..etc.... Not difficult at all I'd say. On the other
hand VF2 is just not the same.
Also, if you TK2 frantics think TK2 is the best, hold a tourament and
see if anyone would travel great distances to play this turtling game.
If it was held in Ottawa, I'll probably join just to laugh at the so
called "master" when I beat them.
--------------------------------------------
Sitson Lee
efl...@engsoc.carleton.ca
Faculty of Engineering, Carleton University
sats...@usa.pipeline.com
VF2>, 'wt...@cornell.edu (PsychoKick)' wrote:
> I've played both VF2 and Tekken2 heavily. While I would not call
>myself a master at either (beating the stupid computer on one credit does
>not prove a damn thing BTW), I feel that I know enough about the games to
>make a fairly well-grounded comparison (ie: I can at least put up a good
>fight against serious competition). I would also like to point out that
>I've seriously studied and sparred in several different martial arts
>(TaeKwonDo, Judo, Hapkido, Western fencing, Karate) and that I KNOW what
>is realistic and practical, as well as the difference between those two
>terms.
My background as far as studying the martial arts and playing
both games is much the same as yours. You say you know what is realistic
and practical-Maybe you do but I have spent hundreds of hours watching
Judo, Aikido,Tae Kwon Do, Kendo and Karate competition in Japan and in
Canada and from experience I can tell you that when a fighter is
successful in applying his move or waza to the opponent it does not look
the least real or practical it looks spectacular, it looks as if the laws
of physics have been temporarily suspended for a moment, just for that
fighters benefit. This is an aspect of the martial arts that Tekken
expresses that is totally lacking from VF2. VF2 does not capture what I
have seen, instead it seems so much less that the intensity and majesty of
real martial arts. I had the priviledge of watching an Aikido master
practice with five of his students while I was in Japan. I watched them for
an hour trying to wrap my head around what I was seeing, trying to
convince myself that this whirlwind of speed, power and technique was real.
I still remeber it like it was a dream. If you have seen martial arts
masters fight or training their advanced students then you know what I mean
and you know that VF2 with Kage floating through the air and bouncing
around on his head e.t.c. is so much less than that. Tk2 does not claim to
be realistic but it certainly captures the atmosphere and unreality of the
martial arts.
As far as the idea that one is able to "use up" the moves in Tekken 2 while
one cannot do so with VF2 that is obviously false so I won't spend that
much time on it. Since there are more moves (or at least more
substantially different ones) in TK2 obviously the possibilities far exceed
VF2. Keep in mind that in TK2 you have independent control of your limbs
and, contrary to what the uninformed think, a LP is not equivalent to RP
there is a difference in speed and reach which is a factor in the gameplay.
If you are fortunate enough to play good opponents you will find that with
TK2 you must continually pull new rabbits out of the hat.
Boone
VF2>, 'jir...@quark.phys.ufl.edu (Jirawat Uttayaya)' wrote:
>This, combined with other Tekken 2 flaws like auto-block and sparklies,
>clear shows VF2 game mechanics as "more complex" in the very least.
FV incorporates them. Auto-block is hardly a flaw.
Irefuse to flog a dead horse. The subject heading says it all.
sats...@usa.pipeline.com
VF2>, 'pols...@hal.lamar.edu (JON HICKMAN)' wrote:
>I don't know why I'm posting this, but...
>
>Oh, and before I start, yes I do play TK2 quite often, and am fairly
skilled
>at
>it and do enjoy the game. So none of those "You elitist VF2 bastard"
flames.
want an "You elitist VF2 bastard" flame but what kind of orifice starts a
post with "I don't know why I'm posting this, but..."???What kind of
orifice includes little "xshrugx" and other redundant crap in a message???
Check yourself.
Havenicedayandkeepyourcondescending-assattitude2'yerdamnself.
Chia Jin Ngee
Now this has to stop!
Anyone bringing up some comparison between VF2 and TK2 has serious problems.
1. You can't find competition on your respective games so you slam the
other game.
2. You actually feel inferior playing the game because someone else slams
the game you play with tons of useless critical comments.
3. You have stupid visions of grandeur of "TK2 or VF2 is the greatest"
and start proclaiming its superiority.
Wake up your bloody ideas! There are people who like certain games and
like them despite of the faults they have.
So stop harping or complaining that the other party is dumb and stupid.
Enjoy the game you prefer. Occasionally check out what the others are
doing with their preferred games and what they entail. Who knows a TK2
tactics and VF2 tactics can find some common ground for some discussion
and not some idiotic flamewar.
--
Jin Ngee, Chia
(Genie, the OligoMan)
mcbl...@leonis.nus.sg
Views and opinions expressed are solely mine and not of my employer's.
Any further grievances can be settled over a Virtua Fighter 2 match.
Rbras...@gnn.com
Well I seem to have lost the focus of this thread somewhere along
the line. It seems to have started out as an argument of the amount
of strategy involved in TK2 and VF2, but it seems to have turned into
a free for all bashing for each other's games and arguing mute points
about which is better (graphics, fun, realistic moves, popularity,
etc.). It should be obvious by now in this thread that these points
can not be argued and won by either side. The use of the term
"better" is what is stopping these arguments from a conclusion.
"Better" is a word that is sacred only to ourselves. When we argue
this point it is unclear what "better" we are talking about. Take for
instance an argument about 2 cars: a Honda Civic and a Ford Mustang.
If we were asked to reply to which was better we would first have to
know what was meant by better. With no explanation I have a feeling
that the Mustang would win hands down most of the time. It's faster,
more expensive, handles better, etc..., but does that make it better?
One could also say the Civic is better because it has better gas
mileage, it's cheaper, more cargo room, etc.. Some points like
handling can even be addressed as better by either one as well. The
Civic may handle better at normal speeds while the Mustang at higher
speeds. All of these points are irrelevant in this argument because
we don't even know what we're arguing about. Now if we were asked
"which is more economical" it would be easier to argue. Clearly the
Civic would be the more popular choice but even that would be argued
by Mustang lovers. The point is that better is something that each
individual must decide for themselves. No matter what is said on this
thread each person will ultimately decide from his or her own
preferences.
I have not replied to this thread to argue which game is better.
It is a waste of my time and yours as well. I have my beliefs as well
as do all of you. I will state that I personally like Tekken 2
better. If I was asked to explain exactly why I liked Tekken 2 better
than VF2 I probably could not. There are many points I could make,
but I probably could not pin point the one thing that ultimately
decides my choice. I believe that it is a combination of virtues that
help to decide my position. From a visual point of view I would say
that I prefer TK2 over VF2 because of it's style. I like the dark
forbidding look of Tekken 2. I like that fact that the characters are
evil and even some ugly. I like that fact that you can break bones
and choke people. In a sense it is more reminiscent of a"real world"
street fight than VF2's style. Not from a purists point of view, but
from a real world street fight point of view. I would say that the
fighting in VF2 would be something that you would see in an actual
sponsored tournament while TK2 fighting would seem to be found in an
alley somewhere outside of a bar. This is the way it should be. VF2
is supposed to be realistic while TK2 is supposed to be more
fantastic. Watching someone getting their face bashed after being
tackled in Tekken 2 is something I have also seen happen in real life.
Sure the sparks and juggle combos aren't realistic but it would be
virtualy(no pun intended) impossible to make a fighting game as
realistic as a real fight. There are too many variables and styles
out there to attempt to recreate on an arcade screen. Even the purist
style of VF2 doesn't come that close to a true fighting experience. I
will say that I believe that the actual moves in VF2 are more faithful
to reality than Tekken's, but I also believe that the mechanics of
Tekken 2 seem more reminiscent of a street fight. Anyone who has
witnessed a real street fight will know that most end up on the ground
even when accomplished martial artists are fighting. This is one
reason why a true fighting game cannot be realistically translated to
a game. It would be to hard to configure a control scheme that would
allow the freedom of movement that a real fight requires: ground
fighting, grappling, submission holds, etc. Tekken 2 doesn't come
close to this either, but it does allow some ground fighting and also
some ground reversals(Paul's face punch counter). This in no way
comes close to real fighting but it is a step in the right direction.
Sure TK2 also has many unrealistic moves and characters as well but
that is what makes it different. I think that if TK2 was more like
VF2 it would be more offensive to VF2 players because it would be more
of a clone. TK2 breaks away from the VF2 game play in many ways and
those are the factors in which people decide which is "better" for
them. Remember that this is only MY opinion. I respect all VF2
players as well as the players of other fighting games. I in no way
feel that TK2 is better than any other game out there. I believe it
is better for me, but that's it. Maybe it's not better for you. I do
not dislike other fighting games because of a blind devotion to Tekken
2 either. I give all games a fair shot and if I do not like them then
I just don't play them. I don't go around flaming other fighting
games and gamers needlesly like some of you out there. I am not just
pointing the finger at some of the VF players either. There are many
Tekken 2, SF, and KI players who are just as guilty. I have seen some
references that TK2 is just a Killer Instinct with grabs and frankly
it offends me. I feel that is an unfair statement, but I also can see
why it was made. Before the thread was corrupted it originally began
as an argument over the strategies or lack of them in TK2. There were
also some good points by VF2 players that said if there was so much
strategy in Tekken 2 then why aren't there any discussions about it on
this news group. That is a very good question indeed. I suspect that
part of the reason is because I believe TK2 is a little easier to get
started to play than VF2 is. Therefore I think that there are more
newcomers to Tekken 2 and most are still learning a lot. VF2 has been
out a lot longer than TK2 so I suspect that some strategies have yet
been discovered. So, to prove to the inquiring VF2 players I will
explain some of the strategies that can be applied by a good Tekken 2
player.
>> Tekken2 is Killer Instinct with throws. Sorry if that was vicious
>> backhanded slap, but if you think about it the prime discussion centers
>> around combo memorization/timing and how and where to break combos.
>> Once everyone gets all of that down pat, the game will become more like
>> VF2: lots of running around and safe pecking attacks mixed with throw
>> attempts.
Either this guy has played TK2 only 5 times or he was watching
some beginners play because this statement holds little truth. I will
admit that TK2 relies more on combos than VF2 but in no way does that
mean that it is it's only strategy. Sure there are a lot of combos
but there is also a lot of other strategy that I will explain in a
bit. I am most offended that he referred to it like KI because in KI
you can do a 30 hit combo with 5 buttons while in TK2 you must hit the
buttons 10 times to do a 10 hit string. Notice that I use the word
string and not combo as well. These are not meant to be combos. They
are a mere string of moves tied together to force your opponent to
guard and to refer to them as combos is clearly a misuse of the word.
On Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:13:27 GMT, leo...@singnet.com.sg (Colin Leong)
wrote:
>i say again. someone PLEASE bring up the case for Tekken2 gameplay
>and complexity (preferably without the anti-VF2 statements in place)
>so that we can have a better basis for comparison. facts, please, and
>don't even bother to mention the endlessly-debated graphics.
Well I already mentioned the graphics above but only to explain
my standing in this debate. This is a very good question and I
respect you for being fair and asking it before flaming like the rest
of them. Before I start though I would like to address why I think
that there is not a lot of talk of strategy. First of all I think
that there is only a small percentage of Tekken 2 players out there
that have reached the strategy and skill level that a lot of the VF2
players have. Give them time and I think that it will eventually
happen. It may never BE as big as VF2 but the fact is it will
eventually BE. What I personally think is that TK2 is far enough away
from VF2 that in a way it has sparked it's own strategy genre. Give
me a minute before flaming me please. Think about it. When VF2 came
out it brought A LOT of people to it. It was a dramatic step above
VF1 in graphics and game play. It attracted a lot of followers and is
almost considered a religion. But there was also a lot of fighting
fans who didn't like it because of various reasons. Then a game
called Tekken comes out and is placed next to VF2. Graphically
inferior and weird play mechanics kept most VF2 players away. It
attracted a small following but not anything big. Then TK2 comes out.
It was more graphically competitive with VF2 than Tekken 1 and a lot
of new game play elements were introduced. Die hard VF2 fans were
mildy interested and some experimented, but most stayed with VF2. Now
some of the players who weren't interested in VF2 see TK2 with it's
flashier moves and combos and become interested. The problem is this
is there first encounter with a 3-D game so they are not used to it.
They either have to be weaned off of MK, SFA, SS, etc..., or they are
new comers all together to the fighting game scene. Therefore there
is a lot of undiscovered country in TK2. There are new techniques
popping up all of the time but not all of them get onto the newsgroups
because some might seem obscure. Sure there are some basic techniques
for all fighters but since most fighters in TK2 have some sort of
escape movement(axis shifting, sidestep, reversal,etc...) the
strategies are more character based. Then the fact that there are 23
characters means that there are 23 different strategies. Yes some
characters are like others but there is usually enough difference that
it requires new strategy. VF2 players admit that even though Wolf and
Jeffry are alike characters but are very different to play so why
should it be any different to TK2? Sound far fetched? It might, but
I believe this is for the most part true. Namco put a lot of effort
into this game and I feel that it has evolved from an attempt at a VF
clone to a truly great fighter of it's own rite. Now that I've
covered that, I will address your challenge at explaining some Tekken
strategy. Like I said there is a lot for different players but I will
go over some broad ones and then discuss some Kazuya advanced tactics
since he is my best character.
Multi grabs in TK2 have had some mixed reviews so I'll start with
them. I have heard complaints about them being to easy to break but
that is not always true. First there are some that aren't
breakable(namely Nina's), but they are harder to get off. Second,
King has some options. His 5 part combo can be started 2 ways which
will ultimately decide which counters will break it. In other words
the same multi grab has two ways to start therefore there is two
different ways to break it. He can start it with 1+3 or 2+4. After
the first grab(reverse arm clutch) he will go into the backdrop.
Countering the backdrop depends on which buttons he started the arm
clutch with. If he started it with 1+3 then the reversal is 1+2,
however if he started with 2+4 the reversal is 2+4. You have a 50%
chance of breaking out(if you know the counters). Sorry, hitting both
counters really fast won't help. It will only accept one. Then his
third grab can be countered as well. Obviously if you tried to
counter the 2nd grab but failed then you know that you have to switch
to the other counters. Grab number 3(german suplex) can be countered
by 3+4 or 1+2 depending on which he used first. Are you following me
here? We know that by process of elimination that if we tried to
counter grab 2 with 1+2 and it didn't work then we have to counter
grab 3 with 1+2 right? By the way you only have about 2 seconds to
make that choice. You can't counter the 4th grab(powerbomb) so if you
miss the counter on the third then your next chance at a counter is
number 5. 5 is counter able with 3+4 or 1+2 again depending on what
the starting grab was initiated with. Am I making my point here? The
countering isn't always a no brainer. Nina and Anna have choices as
well. From the chin bash they can multi part into 1 of 2 other grabs,
each having their own counters and so on. I am trying to make a point
but I don't know if I am exceeding. Enough on grabs. I'll go into
some Kazuya tactics. First of all 3 of his special moves start with
the f,d,df+ movement(dragon punch motion). Many don't realize that
this is a move in itself. Doing the motion by itself makes him go
into the animation I like to call the "quick forward duck". He ducks
down and rushes forward a few steps, which by the way happens to duck
under high attacks. What people don't know is that anytime during
that movement he can do any of the f,d,df+ moves. The animation lasts
for approximately 1 second so you have the choice to choose what you
want to hit with based upon your opponents position. For instance if
you come in with a quick forward duck and they are standing you can
use rk to do his hell sweeps for an easy 2 hits. If you come in and
they are ducking then you have the choice of hitting them with the
Thunder God fist or the Power uppercut depending on your preference.
The God fist is slow but takes of good damage. The power punch is
fast and will set them up for a juggle combo in which Kazuya has many.
But that's not all you can do from that ducking dash. You can also
let the controller go to neutral after initiating the dash and perform
his double axe kick. You can also initiate a grab from any time in
the forward ducking motion. If you wait the full second till right
when the animation stops you can perform his ducking stun punch which
will stun an opponent upon connecting. And when their stunned you can
also initiate a juggle combo if you time it right. It's not easy but
with practice it can be done. So let's see. Not only does the quick
forward duck bring you in close to an opponent, but it also ducks
underneath their high attacks as well. And then from there you have
many options. You can do any of the moves I just explained at any
time during the animation so you can initiate it immediately or wait a
split second to see if you can find a way through their guard. Since
he has this "quick forward duck" I use a cushion when I fight with
him. It is basically the distance that the forward duck will cover.
That way I can be next to my opponent at any time I choose. Now for
some more good news. Kazuya now has a move called axis shift where
he, well... axis shifts. By hitting forward and then letting the
controller go back to neutral you will sidestep out the opponents
direct path. If your opponent is not attacking, all they have to do
is move and they will automatically face you but if you do it when
they are attacking then they will stay on their plane and you can
attack. Sounds good but it's not perfect. Some characters' moves
will still follow you such as King's Frankensteiner and some
characters like Jun have attacks that sweep through different axis so
she can hit you even if not on the same axis. Does that make sense?
My point being you can still be attacked even though you switched
axis. But when used correctly it can be deadly especially because it
has a unique ability. It can be buffered with his f,d,df+ motion.
The f for the axis shift can be used as the first movement of the
dragon punch motion. Therefore you can hit f,n(neutral) to shift axis
and then immediately do d,df+ whichever of the moves I explained
earlier. This is a deadly combination because you can dodge an
opponents attack and IMMEDIATELY counter them. You can also do any of
his jab combos or grabs after the axis shift as well so you have a
huge list of options from the axis shift. Before I forget to mention
it, Kazuya can also kick after his Thunder God fist. For those who
don't know what that is, it is basically a dragon punch. You can
choose to mid-kick or hell sweep on the way down from the it. So if
they block the uppercut you can still surprise them with a kick of
your choice.
Well that was just a small sample of some strategy for Kazuya.
He also has much more but it would take a whole faq to go into
detail(which I am currently writing). The point I am trying to get
across is that Tekken 2 as well as VF2 is loaded with strategy. It's
just that it is still young and with the time release, the characters
that are playable throughout the country(or world for that matter)are
very inconsistent. Some arcades only have 12 characters, while others
have had all 23 for some time. There are also a lot of people out
there with strategy but since TK2 is easier to play for a begginer I
suspect most of the people on this news group are looking for answers
instead of giving them.
On 29 Jan 1996 06:40:11 GMT, do...@umd.umich.edu (Douglas William
Cole) wrote:
> Japan has had 2 (and is currently holding a third) VF2
>tournaments, in which hundreds of thousands of people signed up. The
>expert players there have rock-star status. The game has been out a year
>and a half and we're still learning new things about the game engine.
>Gamest (a very prestigious video game magazine which writes DETAILED
>analysis abiout games) has written THREE books on VF2, and only only for
>Tekken 2.
This is exactly the thing that gives VF2 players a bad name.
Just because it is popular in Japan doesn't mean it HAS to be popular
here. I love Japanese games and I am disgusted at the American game
scene but just because a game is popular in Japan, doesn't make it
superior to all other games. Sure VF2 is more popular in Japan than
TK2 but that doesn't mean they don't like it. Sega is also a lot more
popular in Japan than in America but I don't think this is helping out
the sales of the American Saturn!
>
> VF2 keeps coming out with new twists to the game engine, and
>Tekken2 time releases secret characters (hybrids of the original
>characters mostly). Speaking of the characters, Tekken 2 has 10 normal
>and 12 secret characters that are TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
>Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
Again I have to say that this person has no idea what he is
talking about. Think about it. There are 23 characters total that
are playable(in some arcades) each having there own style so isn't it
possible that the reason it seems unbalanced is that no one has
figured out the best way to play the characters in your area. I have
not played at an arcade where there is just a few characters that are
killing everybody. It is "how" you play, not "who" you play. I admit
some characters seem weaker than others(ie, Kunimitsu) but perhaps no
one has found the best way of playing her yet.
On 30 Jan 1996 12:35:14 GMT, jir...@quark.phys.ufl.edu (Jirawat
Uttayaya) wrote:
>I think main flaw of Tekken 2 can be summed up in one word: constraint.
>Tekken 2 often times forces you into its predefined sequence. Take
>for example running. When you run towards someone in Tekken 2, you are
>locked into Tekken 2 running options, ie. tackle, slide, stop. In VF2,
>running towards your opponent does not limit your options in any way.
>You still have your full range of of moves and throws. With 10 hits,
>you are limited by two options, do or do not. Either you do the sequence
>or you don't. With guard canceling in VF2, you have the option either
>to continue with the precanned combo or switch to a regular attack.
>With Tekken 2 multi-throws, if you mess up the motion of your multi-throw
>the sequence stops and the initiator just moves away. While VF2 one has
>one multi-throw, the SPoD, if Akira messes up the first part of the SPoD,
>can try to reverse, block, run away, attack, throw, etc. Likewise, the
>victim can try to reverse, block, run away, attack, throw, etc. If
>Akira messes up the second part of the SPoD, a whole new world of turn
>around attacks is opened. VF2 does not force you to only perform certain
>actions.
>
>Another level of complexity of VF2 is that attacks affect different
>opponents differently. Lau's sidekick has different effects depending
>whether his opponent is Pai, Akira, or Jeffry. Certain combos and moves
>affect certain opponents and not others. Thus not only must you
>know yourself but also your opponent.
>
>This, combined with other Tekken 2 flaws like auto-block and sparklies,
>clear shows VF2 game mechanics as "more complex" in the very least.
>However Tekken 2 gameplay is still pretty good and it's fun to play.
>The only thing I'm saying is VF2 game mechanics takes more thought
>and insight. While I personally prefer those types of games, your
>mileage may vary.
Some 10 hit strings like Jun's have change up moves so you can't
know where they are going to hit. For instance say that her 10 hits
start with 3 high hits. Then she may have a choice to go low or high
on the fourth hit. This will also be the blocking point that will
allow you to block if the first three hits or even counter her if you
know how. She might decide to go low on the next hit so if you block
high you will be hit by the next series of moves until the next
blocking point. Then some characters have another option to hit high
or low again so if you make the wrong decisions the whole string may
hit. However if you do correctly block the change up then you may
counter her after the last hit because she will be semi-vulnerable.
It is also possible to hit them out of their string if you know when
and how. My point is that all moves are NOT pre described. You can
also stop your attack anytime you want. Just because the move sheet
says 3,3,3,4 doesn't mean that you can't hit 3,3,3 and them grab them
or maybe throw in a surprise sweep. As for the auto-blocking, it is
only a setting and can be turned off by the arcade operator. It is
usually turned so that the begging player has a chance against one who
has played before. In no way does it help against a serious player.
Well that's all I have to say. Remember that this is just my opinion
and in no way am I forcing my beliefs on anyone. I respect all
players, I am just putting my 2 cents in and defending my game. Flame
me if you want but be prepared, I might counter it(just joking).
Slikatel
Lark
: Sorry but this KI with throws thing is a crock. I think most people realize
: that but nevertheless let me address it for a 'mo.
[10-strings not being important discussion deleted, I don't think
anyone worth listening to believes this to be important to the game
strategically]
: in real battle. I find it amusing that people have moved from criticising a
: game for what it lacks to criticising it for what it HAS. 10-strings are
: cool, Tekken 2 has pre-programmed combos ala KI but because it is a 3-d
: game and because of guarding options you are not obliged to simply sit
: there and take the punishment. You can kick someone out of it, guard
: through it, you can even jump behind them and clobber them. Tekken 2 also
Killer Instinct does roughly the same thing with "Combo Breakers",
all you need to do is learn where the weak link in the n-hit combo is.
It's the same concept. It'd also apply to VF2 if not for the ability to
delay parts of most combos. Very simple example: Sarah's shadow kicks.
After two blocked shadow kicks, she's a little bit vulnerable. After
three blocked shadow kicks, you can do whatever sick twisted combo you
want on her. But if she delays the third kick, and you react on the
blocked second, you're going to run face-first into the third. If you
_don't_ react on the second, and she isn't delaying, you'll lose the
window of opportunity to retaliate her combo attempt. In Tekken, you're
locked into the same timing every time you do a combo. Now, all the
variations within combos that start out the same are great, but if you
put enough effort into memorizing them, you can cheat your blocking
position on the timing (plus hints in the animation). Very simple
example (and not the best really, but it's easy to explain): Lei's "lei
down" tactics. The Lei's I've played against use two variations once
they've fallen down: 1) rising sweep to float-crescent kick 2) double
foot thrust, etc. Once I see the "lei down", I jam myself into crouch
block, because variation 1 is a split second faster. If #1 doesn't come,
I can confidently change my block for #2, which has alot of animation
hints anyway (like I said, not the best example). The way I figure it,
the monster Tek players have all these "if...then..." statements down for
everything you can throw at them (either that or they must be looking at
my controls, nobody guesses 100%). Now if two of these types of players
played each other, I bet you'd see one of those boring VF2 matches
Tekkers complain about: lots of running around with little jabbing
attacks and the occasional throw. VF2, however, has a more complex
movement game than Tekkn, and so far has shown much more ability to build
off the little jabby things, plus the feints help. I actually believe
Tekken will show more ability to link bigger attacks off the jabbies
once people get good enough to make the big combo game nearly obsolete,
but at this point I don't think the game is flexible enough to be as good
as VF2 in that department.
Oh, just a pet peeve, the multi-level blocking thing has nothing to do
with the game being 3-D. Samurai Shodown 3 does more with these "3D"
aspects than any Tekken or VF version.
: has do-it-'yerself combos ala VF2 only better because left and right limbs
: are controlled independently and specials can be thrown in for good
: measure. All in all the system in Tekken 2 is much more mature than that
: present in VF 2 which is to be expected since VF2 is older and suffers from
: having two buttons to control the limbs (Last time I checked most of us had
: four limbs, aiming for the amputee market?).
Yeah, I've been saying VF should add that configuration since the
first Tekken came out. With VF's emphasis on the fighter's stance,
they'd get even more out of the Tekken configuration, plus more control
over VF's timing (you can throw two quick jabs with just the left arm
instead of risking going into a left-right combo by pressing VF's only
punch button twice too quickly... yes, i know you can g-cancel, but it's
not intuitive; the Tekken way makes more sense here). Still, it's pretty
stupid for a so-called 3D game not to use a button for blocking. Besides
the realism argument that you can both put your weight forward and
block/deflect an attack, there's the problem with "camera" angles
frequently changing and characters moving off the standard 2-d axis at
times. A 2D joystick is already overworked in a 3D environment without
having to be used to block too, a button gives you better control, plus
it can be used for neat tricks like pulling a punch or kick back, and
controlling a dash (a la VF). We've got 5 fingers, there should be 5
buttons.
-Lark
btw, "Killer Instinct w/throws" is a 1000 times better than KI w/o throws
(solves the biggest problem in the game), and yet I doubt either Tekken
or VF2 will get played as much as KI was. Seems like the games that are
played the least are invariably the best... then again, that would mean
the Jackie Chan video game was a work of pure genius...
CreeD
>feature of the play mechanic/gameplay in TK2 lacking in VF2.
>
But many Tekken 2 masters will point out quickly that these are
essentially not worthwhile offenses because they're so easily guarded
or reverse once you get them down. They also say the only once people
get at the level where they both know the strings and how to avoid
them they hardly get used. Therefore, just because Tekkne has it and
VF does not does not mean tekken has one-upped VF in any way, it
simply proves once again that a lot of Tekken2 is too focused on eye
candy. Some of you might come back with a few very simplistic answers
as to how someone can successfully utilize the strings as a basic
offense, but the strategies that apply to them are few and not reallyy
notable in their own right as an improvement over VF2-style play.
>As most of us who are interested in the martial arts know-Most real fights
>end up on the ground and a good fight simulator should/must somehow
>incorporate that fact yet, as you can imagine, it is tremedously difficult
>to do so. What sort of joystick, button action would be necessary to break
>out of a leg lock? Nina and Kings multi's as well as the ultimate tackle
>represent an attempt (though still rudimentary in my opinion) to respond to
>this reality and provide some basic ground fighting and grappling. It is a
>feature that I hope to see developed in future fighting games.
Ditto. I like the escapes in VF because they all have their different
looks and effects.. one escape is relatively safe for the escapee
because he and his opponent recover at the same time. Another is an
advantage almost because it changes the player's orientation on the Z
axis and makes the escaper's attacks miss... etc.
Earlier
>games like TSD and SF involve mainly bashing your body (or fireballs)
>against your opponent, with Tekken 2 we are seeing far more complex
>interactions between characters and it is definately something to be
>encouraged.
>
>The playing engine in both Tekken 2 and VF 2 is lacking in the 3-d
>department. Hopefully we will see greater freedom in the next generation
>without a sacrifice of gameplay and the addition of too many buttons.
hear hear...
>You are correct about VF2 being overrated and having some unacknowledged
>flaws. This thread is a "Where's the beef?" challenge to VFfers.
I'll take that challenge. I hope/wish some others would back me up
though because I'm still only an intermediate player at best. I
notice many of the VF regulars tend to avoid threads like this. I
don't think this is because they think they're going to lose the
argument or are not polished enough in their speech style to put up a
good argument the way it ought to be, I think it comes from weariness
that sets in when someone goes off and refuses to acknowledge the
depth VF2 offers because he or she is either not enough into the game
and has not put enough time and effort into it to get to understand
the advanced strategy, OR does not have the level of competition
available that a typical RGVA VF2 poster could put up and therefore
does not learn new tactics and the depth that is involved in learning
your opponent's style and technique, OR is simply entranced with a new
game and has simply ditched VF2 because something new has come along
and they find it less boring...
in any case, the beef is there, but, honestly, it is REALLY hard to
describe with concrete situations and moves, exchanges, etc.. it's a
thing you come to grasp when you play it a LOT against GOOD human
players. I think that games offer two types of entertainemtn value..
active and passive. I think VF2 offfers the most active entertainment
value I've ever seen in a fighting game. The opposite end of the
scale would be something like a full-motion video game.
Tekken two offers more in the way of passive entertainment. One
poster went on about the martial arts majesty that it captures and the
effective suspension of belief in physics that some of the moves
create that can be awe inspiring. He didn't have one damn thing to
say about how it played, he started with "I can tell you just from
watching .. " ... or something to that extent.
Watching and the strings to me exemplify passive entertainment. You
have to get deep into the game and play HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of
matches in order to really get beyond that and into the active part.
Then you start seeing how VF2 is really a mind game, a lot like actual
fighting at champion levels .. it's mental but having the conditioning
and reflexes is important as well.
The
>inflated claims to some sort of magnificent life changing gameplay must be
>backed up-Many people apparently, literally don't know what they are
>talking about when they make such claims and if that is the case we might
>as well be talking about religion rather than something as simple as play
>mechanics which should be open to analysis and critique by us mere mortals.
I almost agree with that... VF2 fanatics tend to REMAIN VF2 fanatics
and really don't put a lot of time into other fighting games because
they all seem to pale in comparison. They don't play those hundreds
and hundreds of games that a game like TK2 >might< require in order to
comprehend the depth level .. they're so impressed with VF2 they
simply tend to discount all others. I fall into this category
really... I don't play a lot of TK2. But that's because once I got
into VF2 I never went back to ANY other game. It's THAT good. I got
into it, SUCKED into it, and every time I turn around there's some new
strategy popping up that never occurred to me and I try to use it in
my own play. It's just amazing, because for all the stuff I read here
on RGVA about it I get an almost equal amount of new technique and
tactics in private email. And that's not counting what I learn
playing others in the arcade..
But what specifics should I add?
I don't know, I think a lot of the stance arguments as discussed
between jirawat and lan <correct J and L?> are as good an example as
any.. you have to pay attention to stance and open or close it
accordingly .. you have to pay attention to ring position and adjust
tactics accordingly. And positioning and timing are very crucial too,
there's always a give and take betwene risk and reward, like using
jacky's kickflip or Akira's bodycheck... learning when and where to
use these is not something that can simply be posted in a few hundred
lines, it is dependent totally on your opponent and his style. VF2
produces some of the most recognizable styles in the world, everyone
plays his or her own way, right down to the scrub level.. and you must
learn to watch and adjust and try to exploit any habits/weaknesses.
That's why I wouldn't uniformly recommends going for a bodycheck with
akira after a dashing elbow, nor would I ALWAYS follow up a surprise
exchange with a modified palm move, although that is in GENERAL the
most effective strategy, you have to adjust according to your
opponent. If he uses the Taiwan kick, you might want to bodycheck him
instead.
And reversals play great roles in gameplay and the fear of getting
reversed over and over alters play a lot with certain characters. The
throws all have their own strategy. You have to understand how much
recovery your opponent has after almost any medium to large attack and
keep in mind exactly how much time you have to get off the motions for
whatever throw your character has, and what situations work better for
which throws. The exception of course seems to be Kage, but as
someone remarked, he belongs in tekken 2 really anyway.
Use of defense is another thing that adds a whole new level to
gameplay. You control your character's motion beyond just indiviidual
steps, or even half steps or quarter steps.. using the guard button to
control them so that they go exactly where you want is extremely
important.. it's only a millimeter difference between your opponent
whiffing his fastest character's sidekick and getting tossed or
forcing you to block and gaining anb advantage because you're having
to react to him. Then there's the whole thing about G-cancelling moves
for a variety of reasons.. to avoid getting tossed or comming to an
unwise move .. to senbon punch, or quick crouch and go into "modified"
crouch attacks.. to double as a reversal motion with Akira, to fake..
I think the tendency to respond with "VF isn't as deep as all these
guys make it out to be" is really .. . erm.
not right.
because it's only as deep as YOU make it. We, the VF2 posters, are
not pretending to be elitist and deeper intellectually than anyone
else or trying to prove that we demand a higher level from our gaming
than anyone else.. most will even go as far to say that FV is for all
its flaws a good game because it's just plain fun. I think Tekken is
not as flawed or lacking in complexity as this and many other games,
but it still is not VF2. That doesn't mean it's not a good game and
not fun. If you take the time and make the commitment to see the
players, watch the experts and the tournament masters, get into it
and strive to vary your gameplay style, you will find VF keeps opening
up more and more for you in terms of options and exchanges. . it just
doesn't fall into patterns like other games and while I might hesitate
to give games like TK2 credit, I still have to point out that even a
diehard TK2er has to admit a lot of the depth that IS offered in
tekken2 COMES FROM VF2 and its look and style of play. You can tell
me all day TK2 has strings and running moves and tackles etc. but
these are not at all the kind of thing that will convince me that it
offers anything more or different than VF2. VF2 might not have them,
but then, VF2 doesn't have laser eyebeam spitting devils and lion
humanoids and unblockables either.
>
>Thanks for your interesting response.
heh, you're welcome. Although you might be bored to tears with the
length of it and the vaguely condescending/preachy tone. I can never
avoid that though whenever someone dares to attack the sancticity of
VF2's level of depth and gameplay =)
CreeD
sats...@usa.pipeline.com(Boone) wrote:
sure, and let me guess which game you like to play more, .. erm.
Tekken2 maybe!@??!@?!@ ..
come on, this "clear cut deeper" stuff is crap. I think if I'm
willing to take a vacation from it and try to be openminded, you ought
to as well, you can't escape a statement like that with a nice,
all-placating "do whatcha wanna, it's your decision" <whispered "but
tekken is just plain deeper, it's clear">
..like saying, go ahead, get the subaru or the volvo. <"but the volvo
is better and safer and faster,psttt">
... when I see a person who LIKES VF2 BETTER tell me he still likes it
despite tekken having more depth, or vice versa, ... I might consider
believing that TK2 is "inherently deeper" . . otherwise, no way.
PsychoKick
says...
> My background as far as studying the martial arts and
>playing both games is much the same as yours. You say you know what is
>realistic and practical-Maybe you do but I have spent hundreds of hours
>watching Judo, Aikido,Tae Kwon Do, Kendo and Karate competition in Japan
>and in Canada and from experience I can tell you that when a fighter is
>successful in applying his move or waza to the opponent it does not look
>the least real or practical it looks spectacular, it looks as if the laws
>fighters benefit.
Really? I never have been so impressed by successful technique
that it seems completely unrealistc. Perhaps we have different ideas on
what "looks" realistic. I have a tendency to give the human body the
benefit of the doubt when it comes to athletic feats.
Anyway, when in my original post did I mention that the realism of
VF2 stemmed from its moves? I stated it was the combat MENTALITY of VF2
playing which made it seem so realistic to me.
>This is an aspect of the martial arts that Tekken expresses that is
>totally lacking from VF2. VF2 does not capture what I have seen, instead
>it seems so much less that the intensity and majesty of real martial
>arts. I had the priviledge of watching an Aikido master
>practice with five of his students while I was in Japan. I watched them
>for an hour trying to wrap my head around what I was seeing, trying to
>convince myself that this whirlwind of speed, power and technique was
>real. I still remeber it like it was a dream. If you have seen martial
>arts masters fight or training their advanced students then you know what
>I mean
No, I don't know what you mean, then again it takes a lot to
surprise me in terms of physical feats. I'm not claiming to be some
martial arts master (I still have A LOT to learn), but in all my years of
martial arts study I've never seen fighting that seems like a complete
break from the laws of physics (brick smashing, blade resistance and chi
powers are another matter though...). I could always understand the
physics behind it pretty well.
>and you know that VF2 with Kage floating through the air and
>bouncing around on his head e.t.c. is so much less than that. Tk2 does
>not claim to be realistic but it certainly captures the atmosphere and
>unreality of the martial arts.
Again, I never got the impression from ANY real-life martial arts
battle that it "couldn't be happening." And as I said before, my realism
idea stemmed NOT from the look of VF2 but the combat mentality that I went
into whenever I played VF2. Tekken2 reminds me more of a martial arts
movie than an actual martial arts tournament. More choreagraphed and less
free-flowing.
>As far as the idea that one is able to "use up" the moves in Tekken 2
>while one cannot do so with VF2 that is obviously false so I won't spend
>that much time on it. Since there are more moves (or at least more
>substantially different ones) in TK2 obviously the possibilities far
>exceed VF2. Keep in mind that in TK2 you have independent control of your
>limbs and, contrary to what the uninformed think, a LP is not equivalent
>to RP there is a difference in speed and reach which is a factor in the
>gameplay. If you are fortunate enough to play good opponents you will
>find that with TK2 you must continually pull new rabbits out of the hat.
Changing your strategy to stay on top is a given for all good
fighting games (I never claimed in my original post that Tekken2 was a bad
game, did I? Calm down!), but "more special moves, more buttons" does NOT
equal more strategy (if that were so, SF2 would be the undisputed strategy
king). The strategy comes from how you can modify and combine existing
stuff. Tekken2 does not allow you to change the most basic fundamentals of
a combo (either you do the full combo, or only part of it). VF2 lets you
pull back and modify the individual punches and kicks of the combos (the
guard button plays a crucial role in this). It is less preprogrammed, and
more similar to the free-flowing mentality of real-life martial arts. In
real fights, you modify the combos you learn in martial arts class to suit
the situation by changing how you execute the fundamental punches, kicks,
and stances.
Tekken2 does not let you change the fundamentals. You cannot
control EXACTLY how far you quickstep back and forth, down to the last
pixel (VF2 lets you do this with the guard button). You cannot retract
punches or kicks to lower recovery time (using the guard button or senbon
punch technique in VF2). You are always stuck in the same stance and foot
position (VF2 lets you change your stance, which has large repercussions
on how certain moves hit). You are much more restrained in Tekken2.
Tekken2 DOES have an amazing, large set of combos and moves, which I will
freely admit yields quite complex strategies and tactics, but you cannot
change the basic fundamentals of those moves or combos to create your own
stuff. VF2 lets you change the fundamentals. It has less preprogrammed
combos and special moves than Tekken2, but allowing you to change the
fundamentals gives you incredible control over what is already there,
letting you create your own stuff instead of just relying on what you've
been given by the programmers. This is what I meant by "using up"
strategy. You cannot go beyond the preprogrammed nature of Tekken2,
whereas in VF2 you can go beyond it to your heart's content.
Yes, Tekken2 has a lot of strategy to it, and it's a great game
that I love playing (I mentioned this in my previous post) and hope to
continue to play for a very long time (I don't know whether to get a
Saturn or a Playstation! Maybe I'll wait until prices are low and buy both
used instead...). However, it's strategy just isn't as complex as VF2's.
-PsychoKick
CreeD
>In article <4el0ro$s...@saba.info.ucla.edu>
>Cr...@ucla.edu (CreeD) writes:
>
>>you might think you've mastered Kage, who knows, maybe you have. Can
>>you do the traditional TFToD with b,b+P,PPPK? How about the newer
>>ones being discussed, with TFT,knee, senbon swipes?
>
>I can do the ten ft toss of Doom with b,b+p,PPPK, been doing it
>for a while, never quite got the knee into senbon swipes but i'll
>go try it sometimes now that you've brought it up. These days I
>usually just let them hit the ground because I don't want to be
>called 'cheap' for doing 'easy' stuff. It ain't easy....
I agree totally, I can't do it. But then I know a guy who can SPoD
pretty reliably and can't play for shit otherwise, strategy wise.
>>That's just at the purely basic COMBO level. Besides the nice new
>>combos being discovered there's a lot of new stuff regarding strategy,
>>like how to deal with a master-level Akira and a Lau m-upkn rush..
>>
>Master Level Akira I can't nor would want to try. The only Lau
>player around (haven't seen him in a while though) wasn't worth
>crap, would just knife hand me and I would block or dodge and open
>a big ol' can of ten ft. toss whup ass on him and watch him fly.
>
right, which means there are two characters who have whole new levels
in terms of skill which you have no begun to experience. At one
point I got to the point where I was thinking that I could make myself
respectable and kill ANY jeffry player who came at me, no matter how
good. Reading the stuff about him fromt eh MoAT posts however makes
me realize.. I would not stand even the faintest chance with a good
character. The point being just when you think you've learned it all
and there's nothing new to be discovered, something new pops up. Just
by figuring out crouch dashing for example a taiwaneseplayer managed
to cream some of canada' s VF elite with a "new" combo that nobody had
even THOUGHT to try before. This in turn opened up a whole can of
worms with crouch dashing that really changed the game for good at the
expert's level of play. Akira now seems deadlier than ever. The "old
news" SPoD that you used to think was the ultimate in throws has been
replaced with the new surprise exchange strategies. Crouch dashing
gave Lau ever WORSE comboability than anyone suspected, and I am
quoting from a letter I received just today from someone, a GOOD VF2
player, remarking on how much of a blast he was having now that he's
gotten into learning the m-UpKn. ..
You're not playing people at a level that demonstrates the constantly
changing and evolving nature of VF gameplay. Order up the moat tapes
or something I guess is the only way you will either.
>>besides, beating the game means nothing, I wouldn't have been
>>impressed if you'd bothered to tack ont hat you did it in expert mode.
>>Number Four, the Akira player named Akira from Taiwan, reached second
>>grade with Akira on expert mode, probably one of the harder feats in
>>any game... it's on tape even...
>
>I've gotten to Kage on Expert, but they are damn good after that.
>>
>
Agreed. I can't really kill it. And what's REALLY brutal is when
someone really good challenges in expert mode and uses many characters
and suddenly all your CPU opponents have learned from the human ones
and start whipping your ass more effectively. I'd wager that that's
why your Kage keeps getting whipped by the CPU kage.. you taught it
everything it knows PLUS it has the computer advantage of instant
reflexes and psychic reversals.
>
>>
>>you just have to get used to the pacing and strategy of VF 2. The
>>virtua concept has been taken to the point where a lot of the flash
>>that could have been added is forsaken to keep the game more
>>simulation and strategy than the typical arcade fighter...
>>The battles get heated and pretty lively on the higher levels, to be
>>sure. Actually, this whole thread is an echo of another one I have
>>going comparing SF <whole series> to VF2.
>>
>The pacing and strategy is SLOOOOOWWWWW compared to the quick
>TK2. Even Toshinden2 is quicker paced. In VF2, there are
>moments of furious fighting, but then the pace gets real slow
>after a knockdown. In TK2, this ain't no children's game, it
>gets fast and stays fast.
.. this falls into the diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folx category.
Some like the methodical pacing of VF and some don't.
Says nothing regarding depth though. Everyone will agree that chess
is one of the deepest games ever yet it can be played methodically or
using the special timers in tournaments that force it into speedchess.
>Street Fighter to VF2?!?!? well I guess it could be done.
it's hard work, limitng my verbosity in two bigassed threads every
day.
>
>
>>
>[stuff about hybrid characters deleted]
>
>>.. I think you made a point against yourself in conceding that many
>>of the styles are basically the same or simply hybrids. .I dunno. I
>>like to learn to adapt to my character of choice and master him ... I
>>don't like Akira being so powerful in his midlevel attacks and
>>grappling yet so weak in low level attacksm for instance, but I
>>wouuldn't want to play any other version of him who fixes these at the
>>expense of the other moves, or worse yet, fixes these without taking
>>away from other areas creating <see first post> REALLY overly powerful
>>characters with bad balance.
>>
>This not only offers you an impressive choice of fighting preferences,
>but allows you to custom tailor your style based on previous experience
>with other characters. Not only are there more UNIQUE styles than
>VF2, there are also that many more VARIATIONS on the Unique styles.
>This absolutely can't be used as an argument against TK2 it can ONLY
>be a strong point. Now if there were only 3 styles and a bunch of
>variations, you would have a point..... but.....
The variations come from the humans. Individual players account for
the different styles within the character "types". Some people play
safe machi akira, oters play in your face akira. One might use moves
the other never would, and vice versa.
>**UNRELATED TO GAME PLAY ON***
>What other game offers you this flexibility? You have a host of
>different characters to pick from. In VF2 you have 10, in tekken
>you have 23 different characters. Gameplay aside, you actually have
>over 50 different characters if you like to customize appearance.
>Different costumes, colors, even a Kangaroo or Lizard and a Demon
>or an Angel! Far beyond VF2's slightly different outfits and
>color scemes.
>** VF2 Oooh, Blue Ninja, Orange Ninja, look! Pai changes hats!
>** TK2 Take a look at Heihachi's or Ninas or Lei's and you will
>be impressed on how many options you have for your character.
in the unrelated to gameplay section: the sarcastic ooo's you put
there could easily be applied to TK2 by anyone who wants to put up
the point that it's more flash than gameplay. OOO, you've got a
kangaroo and a big cat and a lizard and a demon, ... didn't you just
say this ain't no kiddie's game? Well that certainly isn't convincing
me. You wanna take this argument to its logical extreme and KI is
best of all because you have your robot and your dinosaur and your
martial artist and your alien ... that doesn't mean there's all that
much variety in any way shape or form. VF did not bother with the
glitz because, as the title implies, it's virtua fighter, the
simulator, the real world fighter. It might have unrealistic stuff
like the jumping and floats but you don't see fireballs or lasers, and
you definitely don't see lizards and angels.
>
>***UNRELATED TO GAMEPLAY OFF***
>
>There isn't any 'bad balance' in TK2's secret characters! Hell some
>of them are weaker! (Kunimitsu comes to mind) Wouldn't you like to
>have more options than your ten characters? I would love to see
>VF2 with something like 20 characters and variants on the original
>ones. Like another Ninja who has different moves or another 5 animal
>southern shaolin system(monkey would be cool). But NOOOO, VF3 will
>have only two new characters, a 'big guy' as the Sega rep put it,
>and a Japanese girl(Akira's Sister I think). I want to see real
>Tai Kwon Do in VF3, would make Sarah's shadow kicks look like
>crap. I also want to see some Japanese Karate and perhaps Sumo,
>(it seems like all the styles are chinese or something else besides
>Japanese, only Kage practices a Japanese art, and even Akira's art
>originated in China!) I would also like to see the original
>characters brought up to the Shun and Lion level for motion....
>actually I want to see the originals brought up to the Tekken2
>level!
The motion thing will happen according to the prez, everyone gets
sidesteps and dodges.. supposedly. We'll see. In any casr the TK2
dodges are more along the line of SS3 ones whereas the ones in VF are
true 3rd-D.
As for the lack of variety in fighting styles, shrug, if you say so, I
think they're quite varied. I mean, the wrestlers are both wrestlers,
so yeah, they grab a lot. But one uses spinning roundhouses and
reversals, and flashy kicks and pounces. The other is more comboable
but plainer looking in moves and flash, but terribly efficient...
and if pai and lau seem similar, they ARE father and daughter after
all. But each offers strategies and individual HUMAN playing styles
up the ass, and I'm sure the two new characters will as well.
Let's not forget also just how much deeper VF2 was over VF1. "only"
adding a few new characters does not signify anything about variety
and depth.
>>>VF2? Ten characters, four of which(Jacky/Sarah, Lau/Pai) who are
>>>somewhat similar(have same basic kicks,punches; share a few other
>>>special movements.) that makes only six REALLY different characters.
>>
>> They share, at best, a few basics and specials, like PPPK or G+K or
>>d+G+K with pai and lau. the playing styles are FAR different however,
>>Pai can't even begin to imitate lau's rushes, and there's nobody like
>>Akira or Kage. .. Jacky and Sarah may or may not play similarly in
>>terms of offense, I don't play enough of either to know. I think Shun
>>and Lion play much differently, and surprisingly, even wolf and
>>jeffry..the most similar characters to each other by far.
>>
>Ok, this makes two people who didn't understand me, my fault for
>not wording it right. I wanted to say Tekken has 12 different styles
>and VF2 has only 6. Sarah/Jacky and Pai/Lau are very different but
>they use the same styles. No two martial artists are the same in
>real life.
okay, that point is pretty valid, the styles the characters are
modeled after ARE more varied in TK2 because of the superior number of
characters. But whereas you have two differnet variations per
fighting style in VF, according to you at least, you have like three
per style in TK2, which is kinda of cheap in that you have all these
characters with only minimal differentiations, whereas even pai/lau
and jeff/wolf offer a lot more within the individual style.
CrEEd.
>>
>>
>Allen
>
CreeD
>One thing you have forgotten is the fact that Tekken2, in endless comparisons
>to VF2, is ACTUALLY A PLAYSTATION ENGINE!
>Let's see saturn get the kind of accuracy of tek2 with vf2. Nowhere close.
>I do accept that tekken2 has more preprogrammed combosm but over time you
>learn to make your own, just like vf2. All combo's i use in tekken
>have progressed to home-made types.
>cheers
>keg
>--
>Peter Gabriel - Starwars - CD-ROM - Industrial Music - Movies - Digital
>Sound - Sleeping In - Usenet - Sony PS-X - Akira - The life is GOOD!!!
>************************************************************************
>Chris Ansell jc...@uow.edu.au "Call me Kegster" pu...@midnight.com.au
what's that got to do with gameplay, or anything for that matter?
You're saying you can get TK home with combos and other eye candy
intact? So? My Saturn VF2 is just fine and has pretty minimal
differences if any. None detected so far at least, and graphically
the animation holds up to that sweet 60 FPS. I don't see what home
conversions have to do with either gameplay or rec.games.video.ARCADE.
CreeD
>>bs. you're trying to shrink the whole VF2-TK2 depth argument into one
>>statement, leaving out tactics development and a whole lot of other
>>stuff. i don't see new techniques being discussed for TK2. just new
>>combos and mostly stringed move patterns. VF2, on the other hand, has
>>new techniques and tactics popping up every now and then. such as:
>>
<lotsa stuff about tekken having more moves than VF snipped>
>techniques. In TK2 there is always something I can do to
>mix it up just enough to keep an opponent at bay. I can press
>an attack (which is quite difficult in VF2 without pouncing)
>by hitting them when they are on the ground, I have easy throws,
>which don't do alot and tougher throws that do major damage but
>leave me open to attack, I can switch combos during a furious
>exchange(going from Anna's d/f+3,4 to her d/f+3,2,1 or her
>d/f 4,3) I have many more options to keep my opponent guessing.
>
>
>
>
>
>>run in and throw. holding F for deeper punches. G-cancelling.
>>counters and interrupts. uncounterable moves and what to do with
>>them. foot positioning and stance. anti-RO tactics. staggering and
>>how to deal with it, what do do with it. reversals and how to deal
>>with them. oki-zeme. modified moves. kick-cancelling. senbon.
>>crouch dashing.
>>that's most of it, but not all.
>>
>In TK2 I can run in and throw, hold d/f for a deeper punch,
>counter a punch or kick(or sword:), interrupt a combo, do an
>uncounterable move, stagger and stun tactics, counter a reverse,
>cancel many attacks(Baek's flammingo, Nina's Hunting Swan), PLUS
>running in and tackling, jumpkicking, sliding, shoulder ram, even
>step on them if they are stupid enough not to roll away.
VF has stepping on people who don't roll away, and the rest are just
new, different moves. I admit VF2 does NOT have specialty running
attacks like TK2. The rest is stuff you say TK matches.. except
for...
> While
>on the ground I can roll to the side OR the invaluable getting up
>quickly. The only thing VF has that TK2 doesn't from your list is
>Ring Outs and foot stances, which I might add doesn't matter THAT
>much in the course of a standard VF game.
right there. You killed your argument to the veteran VFers on here.
The stuff he mentioned is ALL important but the ring outs and stances
are damned important, with any character but ESPECIALLY some. For
example Lau can upkn rush you right out of the ring and the
"unimportant" RO suddenly becomes foremost in your head. You might be
blocking everything he's tossing at you but you're still gojng to do.
RO is a CONSTANT threat against a GOOD kage.
And stance is incredibly important too. Just by closing your stance
with any character you're making it harder to be grabbed, which is
naturally a big part of gameplay in itself, .. but then with some
characters it goes beyond even that.. like changing your stance to
that that pesky UPKN rush of lau's WHIFFS and won't RO you.
It's pretty clear you're not talking master level, but you provided an
opportunity to help the VFers case by letting us go into specifics of
why everything is useful. Whereas I see the argument about 3,3,3 ,
1,3,2,whatever , 3,4,1 whatever ... all being different combination
moves and it just adds to my point that having more attacks doesn't
mean shit in terms of depth, etc. KI certainly has a lot of moves,
wow, six attack buttons instead of two or four, wow, about fifty
different combos PER CHARACTER.. . but again, having those moves and
combos doesn't mean there's any depth. Nuff said there.
> Holding guard will
>stop a high right kick the same as a high left, and last time I
>looked, Pai can catch both of them. Sure it adds a minor bit to
>the game, but not that much. As for the rest of the list, those
>of course are specific to VF2, much like the "Korean Krunch"
>is specific to TK2.
>
>Answer me this though, what exactly do you mean by 'modified
>moves'?
>
There are at least three different ways of "modifying" certain moves
in VF2 to make them more effective, quicker or easier or faster or
longer ranged... one method makes it so that by buffering a crouched
move into a crouch dash, you get your character to do a move but he
does it at the end of the crouch dash adding range to it. this is
huge, ... surprise exchange with akira can automatically be followed
up with a single palm for a piddly amount of damage, maybe twelve
percent. But if you "modify" the palm you can get it to come out
RIGHT behind your opponent and connect harder, making the louder hit
noise and opening up the possibility for a 25% to 50% hit depending on
what your opponent tries to do ... all by tacking on that crouch dash.
In addition you can modify ducking moves so that they come out almost
instantly, or at least faster, so that lau can combo many m- lifting
palm moves in a row, increasing his deadliness twenty times. Everyone
gets into the act with modified moves. Akira can do his double palm
without charging, characters can do ducking attacks faster, wold and
jeff can zip into range for some of their best throw moves, .. this
all comes from special controlled techniques applied to moves that
require crouching first or a d, d/f motion.
>>would someone please counter that for the case of TK2? being
>>originally VF2-biased, i know i won't present a good picture of TK2
>>complexity.
>>
>>
>>you're oversimplifying. having tackle manoeuvers implies more varied
>>gameplay? puh-leease. then i might as well say, the fact that VF2
>>has RO but TK2 has no RO makes TK2 boring? you know as well as i that
>>this sort of reasoning hardly makes an argument.
>>
>As stated above, things like tackling give each character a larger
>base of standard moves, which in turn results in more options.
that's the most logical thing I've heard out of you or anyone in favor
of TK2 yet. I am inclined to actually believe it <GASP!>
>>>If your logical reasoning takes the form of the above too patterns then it
>>>is possible to defend the idea that VF2 offers more complex gameplay.
>>
>>if -your- logical reasoning only lets you see pro-VF2 arguments in
>>said two patterns, then it is obvious that you need a quick cuppa
>>before replying.
>>
>
>if -=your=- logical reasoning is what you said several paragraphs ago
>when you listed all these great wonderful VF achievements, then it
>is obvious that you need to invest more than .50 in TK2, but this
>time wait for that guy who kicked your butt to get off the machine
>first.
>
another good point. I don't see master TK2ers, ever, play, I'm pretty
sure, so it's a little easier for me to back my arguments and presume,
and a little harder to believe others...
But the same can be said of the TK2 players as well who would argue VF
lacks depth or does not even approach TK2 in depth. It's clear that
there's a bias, intentional or not.
>>i say again. someone PLEASE bring up the case for Tekken2 gameplay
>>and complexity (preferably without the anti-VF2 statements in place)
>>so that we can have a better basis for comparison. facts, please, and
>>don't even bother to mention the endlessly-debated graphics.
>
>done, and the motion of the characters IS better, even though the
>color in VF2 is nice.
>
I have to disagree, I absolutely love the motion capture in VF and
it's such a clear difference when compared to FV. I like the movement
in TK2 fine but I think that it's not at all better.
>If only we had a game that had VF2 graphics and Tekken Motion and
>the best features of each! uh, SOUL EDGE!!! Heh heh.
>(actually I haven't played it yet, but I've heard rumors....)
I have too, but I dunno about it. I'll put my bets on VF3 instead.
BigCat *meow*
sats...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
> Wanna hear a secret? I've been playing Tekken for over a year now and I
> know one (Yes, uno, ichi,hitotsu dake) 10-string combo, I never use it
> because it's the one for a character I don't play. 10-strings are
> gravy... [snip] Ideally, to be well-rounded one would want to learn
> your characters 10-string but often it is impractical in real battle.
I have to totally agree with this... They're cute, but they're not
actually part of a normal gameplay, so i don't think they should be the
victim of criticism. On the same token, i think the same respect should
be accorded to High jumps as an attack in VF2, since they don't exist in a
respectable game... not in any of mine, at least ;>
> Tekken 2 also has do-it-'yerself combos ala VF2 only better because
> left and right limbs are controlled independently and specials can be
> thrown in for good measure. All in all the system in Tekken 2 is much
> more mature than that present in VF 2 which is to be expected since VF2
> is older and suffers from having two buttons to control the limbs (Last
> time I checked most of us had four limbs, aiming for the amputee market?).
A couple of points... First, i feel that TK2 has more potential for
"do-it-'yerself" combos (i call 'em canned combos, cuz it's shorter)
because there are just more moves per player... WAY more moves. That's
what comes from having 4 attack buttons PLUS joystick motions for most
moves. I'd be willing to say that many of the characters in TK2 have
almost half as many moves as VF2 has IN TOTAL. *ack*
Next, no amputee jokes, please, you never know when there might be a
quadruplegic (sp) Tetsujin out there that might get all offended and cry
or something :>
By the same token that you feel that VF2 suffers from a lack of
"independant limb control", i feel that TK2 suffers from a lack of a
guard button. Really, if the buttons indicated which limbs you were
using, wouldn't you be holding down the punch buttons to block? Wouldn't
you press the kick buttons to jump? Ok, i'm being facetious... but the
point is that no game is perfect. TK2 isn't strictly a four-button to
limb game... BloodStorm and Time Killers were, and you saw how great
/they/ were *sarcastic grin*. Of course, you can't always attack with
all four limbs... sometimes it's rather impractical to, for example, do a
front leg kick, or repeated jabs with the same hand, a la Law. Ok, ya,
in VF2 the buttons are limited... not even very strict in their
definitions. But a guard button /does/ add to the game. G-cancelling,
buffering moves into a guard, and being able to hold whatever direction
you want while guarding are all very nice touches.
Now we continue... In another post:
sats...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
> 'pols...@hal.lamar.edu (JON HICKMAN)' wrote:
> >I don't know why I'm posting this, but...
> >
> > Oh, and before I start, yes I do play TK2 quite often, and am fairly
> > skilled at it and do enjoy the game. So none of those "You elitist VF2
> > bastard" flames.
>
> Up until now this thread has been pretty informative. You say you don't
> want an "You elitist VF2 bastard" flame but what kind of orifice starts a
> post with "I don't know why I'm posting this, but..."???What kind of
> orifice includes little "xshrugx" and other redundant crap in a message???
> Check yourself.
> Havenicedayandkeepyourcondescending-assattitude2'yerdamnself.
Isn't this fun? Condescending isn't watching your back because people
tend to jump to conclusions about people's skill and experience here...
Condescending is more along the lines of assuming that you have any place
telling a person that they're a weiner for being paranoid. Maybe he's
got low self-esteem, maybe he's paranoid, maybe he's just watching his
back for follow-up posts like this. Why should you care? Stick to the
program, and keep the thread as you and i BOTH like it... informative.
Don't like someone's whiny-ass shit? Snip it when you reply. You don't
have to like them... just answer them.
BigCat
CreeD
>On Jan 29, 1996 06:40:11 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
>VF2>, 'do...@umd.umich.edu (Douglas William Cole)' wrote:
>
>
>>I was going to reply an argument to this, but why waste my
>>breath? I've played VF2, and I've played Tekken2, and VF2 is just WAY
>>better.
>
>Apparently you didn't waste your breath because you have presented No
>argument here. I am sorry (that no one has told you this yet) but you
>saying that YOU think that VF2 is quote "Way better" does not make it so.
>When all else fails the regular appeal is made to VF2's wide popularity and
>superiour graphic hardware. These were never in question but they prove
>NOTHING. Pornography is hugely popular, it is a multi-billion dollar
>industry-Does this prove that porno films have artistic merit?
>
you were right RIGHT up to the "superior hardware/popularity" bit.
I agree that his opinion does not qualify anything, and if people
hesistate to get longwinded like me when they decide to argue in favor
of VF2, it's probably because they A: have to spend a lot of time
posting on truly VF2 related stuff or B: have had to do it many times
before and are sick of it...
anyway. Your examples, at least from an american perspective, are
totally swapped. Many people argue that TK2 has better
graphics/graphic hardware or whatever. It definitely does offer stuff
that VF2 does not, like the lighting. And in the US I think VF2 is
the small following compared to the more scrub friendly, flashier TK2.
So TK2 falls under the "porn movie" category and VF is the aesthetics
beyond the flash category.
>I have been informed by many of the posts by VFfers about aspects of the
>game that I perhaps didn't see before. I still believe that Tekken 2 offers
>overwhelmingly
<!>
> more complex gameplay
>and I have given arguments to show
>this for which there has not yet been a serious refutation.
Did I miss this post? Or what? Was it the one with the list with the
bullets concerning the moves? like so:
-tackles
-multithrows
-blahblah ....
like that?
If so that was >hardly< a really well thought out and effective
argument, and as to the refutations..
did it occur to you that people might simply be more secure in the
game they like and don't feel the need to constantly challenge others
and/or defend it? I mean, come on, you don't see any smart guy
perking up with a post saying something along the lines of "let's
start some real threads that show off just how deep TK2 is and show
those VFers up" .. nor do you see "RE: VF2 strategies NO LESS than
TK2" .. just the fact that VF2 is the clearvut one to beat that is
conceded on ALL sides to have a LOT of depth, whereas tekken2 is still
in doubt and under question, shows right away why some RGVA posters
just don't feel the obligation to respond to challenges like this.
> I am beginning
>to realize that from some peoples mouths statements about VF2 are to be
>given the same credibility as religious statements. If someone said "God
>spoke to me this morning" we would understand that that person had a
>powerful emotional experience but we would not necessarily conclude that
>God ACTUALLY spoke to the person or even that God exists. Likewise when
>some people say "VF2 has superior gameplay" they are completely unable to
>quantify or elaborate on the supposedly great "gameplay" but they exist
>that it is there with religious fervour. Most of us aetheists have nothing
>invested in God or VF2 so we can try to assess what IS there and what
>ISN'T. I understand your satement that "VF2 is way better" as being a
>statement regarding your emotional attitude in regards to VF2. It does
>nothing to advance the debate here though.
The last line was valid, but the others are a little less accurate I
think. As I said before, it's one of those "play it and see" things
that requires a real commitment and witnessing expert level play to
qualify. Whereas <I'm an atheist too by the way> you can say "god is
there" but not really put the other guy in a position to prove it's
so, you CAN with VF2 providing you have someone willing and
openminded. The fact that you point out that the argument a VF/TK
player put up was invalid because it was merely subjective opinion
shows that you specifically might be openminded enough to actually try
it hypothetically. I don't know if you will solely for experimental,
hypothetical purposes, but I think if you did you might actually
change your mind, something which is so rare on here. But the
commitment I'm talking is MONTHS, min. .. it's not something that
just blows the more skeptical people such as yourself away right off
the bat. I don't want to just say "trust me" because that's foolish
and doesn't prove a thing. But I can say this: I know right away by
your tone that you haven't even given a serious try to VF2 and are not
too qualified to judge. It's everyone's right to be skeptical but the
fact that you don't even admit a huge level of depth EXISTS in VF2,
and the fact that you quote TK2 as having "overwhelmingly" more depth
really shows a biased and uninformed position. In my opinion of
course. I think that the best "pure" game players in the world who
excel at any game they play for a while might take a liking to either
one right off the bar, but from a purely objective standpoint come to
the conclusion that depth and learning wise either A: it's close, if
VF is ahead of TK2 in "depth" it's a close thing, hard to measure, and
not something one can just assume and reliably prove or B: it's not
even close, and that VF2 is just way ahead in that department.
Yours is really the first argument I've seen among ANY player of TK2
or otherwise that comes up with C: it's not even close, VF2 is far
behind TK2.
I might sound childishly stubborn here but there's no WAY I can
concede that point unless you give me a series of hard, fast
revelations like, instantly. I haven't seen any conversations on TK
in the newsgroups that even approach remotely the tiny points that are
discussed concerning the differences between the "modified" moves, the
c- and m- and g- notation, the stance arguments that pop up over and
over again, esp. with the Lau vs. XXXXXX fights, etc. .. these are
just to name the ones I read today, many months after the game's
release. To this day though I see mostly questions regarding the how
to do a few of the hardwired moves and combos in this game, like
paul's weird throw<the headbutt thing?>, reversing tackles and certain
moves, combos, etc.
What can you offer me along the lines of constantly paying attention
to and switching stance in order to combat playing an excellent Lau
who has mastered the m-upkn rush? How much special notation and named
combos do I see for TK2? Not nearly as much as I see for VF2.
And if you're inclined to think the Japanese are true gaming fanatics,
ask any of them which they think is deeper? Which is more popular
over there?
..
this post is getting long but you probably get the picture.
Boone
VF2>, 'jl...@netcom.com (Lark)' wrote:
>
>: has do-it-'yerself combos ala VF2 only better because left and right
limbs
>: are controlled independently and specials can be thrown in for good
>: measure. All in all the system in Tekken 2 is much more mature than that
>: present in VF 2 which is to be expected since VF2 is older and suffers
from
>: having two buttons to control the limbs (Last time I checked most of us
had
>: four limbs, aiming for the amputee market?).
>
>Yeah, I've been saying VF should add that configuration since the
>first Tekken came out. With VF's emphasis on the fighter's stance,
>they'd get even more out of the Tekken configuration, plus more control
>over VF's timing (you can throw two quick jabs with just the left arm
>instead of risking going into a left-right combo by pressing VF's only
>punch button twice too quickly... yes, i know you can g-cancel, but it's
>not intuitive; the Tekken way makes more sense here).
Good to see that we agree on something. According to Yu and the boys they
are sticking with the 3-button thing for VF 3, they claim it makes it
easier to control the characters but I think it makes it almost
exponentially harder. We managed for years with six buttons on the SF
machines and five (now six) on the MK machines. I understand there is a
need for balance here but they should try to make VF3 a game that will
suceed outside of the VA hospital circuit.
Boone
VF2>, 'Cr...@ucla.edu (CreeD)' wrote:
>If so that was >hardly< a really well thought out and effective
>argument, and as to the refutations..
>did it occur to you that people might simply be more secure in the
>game they like and don't feel the need to constantly challenge others
>and/or defend it?
projecting your own insecurities onto myself and others. I have not been
trying to challenge VF2's merits or force anyone to defend it. I have
stated numerous times that I encourage people to play what they like
because I certainly do. You will have noticed (If you follow this
newsgroup) that some VFfers have attempted to dismiss TK2 as simply
"Eye-candy", a rip-off of VF 2 and a game which lacks solid gameplay and
does not require strategy to win. Needless to say that those of us who play
Tekken 2 get tired of wading through those posts. My ONLY point has been to
show that when you really break down the play mechanics/system of both
games it is clear that TK2 involves certainly NO LESS strategy than VF2 and
is innovative and varied in ways that VF2 is not. The dismissive attitude
that some VFfers have show towards TK2 is without any real basis or merit.
The popularity of either game is not an issue for me, neither are the
graphics (Which are largely irrelevant to the play mechanics). Furthermore,
I have not been trying to make any statement about which game is "better"
because I have no idea what any such statement could possibly mean. (Better
for what?). I thinkthat most people who do not have a quasi-religious
devotion to VF2 have understood my perspective and have posted valuable
comments.
Frankly, I had initially thought I was alone in my position but apparently
many others share my perspective and have written responses far more
eloquent than I am capable of. Along the way a few ideas have emerged which
will be beneficial to both games in their next incarnations. I think that
the point has been made and I willing to rest my case.
BigCat *meow*
Woo woo! Although i'm SURE i'm going to regret this, i'm tossing my hat
into this proverbial ring :>
> sats...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
> : Lark wrote:
> : >I either love a character or hate it. Lee and Kazuya are cooler than
> : >anyone in VF2, but King and Alex make me feel like i'm playing some
> : >Nintendo kids game. Nina needs a mask like Kunimitsu's and a malpractice
> : >suit against that plastic surgeon she went to between Tek1 and 2.
I won't touch characters. Some of the TK2 characters are downright
silly, but the VF2 characters can get REALLY annoying after a while :>
... And Nina's punch-version costume is rather suggestive... that's
always a plus *aroo!* ;>
[more or less balanced sound FX comparison snipped]
> : Maybe it's just the Saturn version but the "hitting and falling sounds" in
> : VF2 sound to me like someone banging their fist on wood.
VF2 sound on the Saturn bites :> Of course, King sounds like all the
monsters from the old Hercules cartoon, so let's not get picky ;> I
personally like the way all the sounds are slowed in VF2's underwater
stage. Another point is that all these "bish" sounds used for hits are
really getting annoying... when is a game gonna sound like you're really
smacking the person? *sigh*
> : It is fascinating to me how people try to do the impossible to support VF 2
> : which although it is a good game lacks many of the elements in Tekken 2.
Don't be condescending... it won't get this argument to go anywhere useful.
> : e.g.
> : Tekken 2 has floats (aerial combos) and 10-hit combos (with multiple guard
> : points so I don't know why people keep swallowing them whole-Lack of
> : skill), VF 2 has floats therefore VF 2 is more complex. Huh????
Floats in VF2 are, to be honest, limited compared to TK2... but VF2
doesn't have a floating uppercut move for nearly everyone, nor a
shitload of regular moves either (that could be used during a float).
The 10-hit combos are... interesting... I know i always get cut off
halfway through them, so i don't understand how much play value they have
once you reach "the Level", where most players are pretty amazing. The
fluidity is nice, tho, although you can get similar (but not nearly as
long) stuff with rolled combos in VF2.
> : Tekken 2 has tackle manoeuvers (Inspired, incidentally by UFC and the
> : Gracie Jiujitsu style), VF 2 has ONE move which is
> : kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF 2
> : offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
Tackle maneuvers are effectively eliminated from the game when you're
playing decent opponents. I haven't gotten away with using one on a
decent player in ages, since they are so easily reversed. I don't recall
anyone arguing that VF2 offers more varied gameplay (whatever -that-
means). I think the idea was that VF2 players feel that there are more
ways to approach an "attack pattern" in VF2 than in TK2... which is not
necessarily true, from an attack level perspective.
> : If your logical reasoning takes the form of the above too patterns then it
you mean "two", right? --^^^
> : is possible to defend the idea that VF2 offers more complex gameplay.
Possibly... or i could prattle off a whole pile of other things that in
my ever-so-biased opinion make it more complex :>
Before i edit SuperDoug's "assessments", i'll do what i feel is fair, and
make the same argument, only the other way:
Tekken 2 lacks some of the elements that are become Virtua Fighter 2:
* Foot Stance - in fact, NO other game i've seen so far addresses the
concept of open and closed foot stances in the detail that VF2 has done
so. This is /despite/ the fact that many of the reversals depicted in
TK2 can ONLY be done from certain stances... i'm referring to many of the
Aikido style techniques, which are usually particular to a certain stance.
* Ring Outs - Oh damn, i know i'm gonna start a HUGE argument with this
one, but admittedly, RO's are another dimension to the game. Whether you
agree with the *concept* or not is a completely different story, so i'll
stop that discussion there.
* Crouch throws - This is actually a point about throwing in general.
Because throws in TK2 have execution and recovery times, like regular
moves, they /are/ like regular moves. They are, in essence, high
attacks. Throws in VF2 are instant, in the sense that if they can be
done at the moment they are "executed", they will be, but only in
that instant. It becomes an additional dimension to your attacks,
especially when taking into account: the existence of crouch throws; foot
stance and throwing; crouching times vs instant crouches; buffering
throws... Altho one TK2 thing that's nice is that you can interrupt *and*
throw, which you can only do in one itty-bitty case in VF2.
* Staggers - There are "stumbles" in TK2, like when you block certain
jumpkicks, during which you are sorta vulnerable, as well as the usual
hit stuns and block stuns. VF2 has: Stumble throws, Break guards (both
covered in a sec); Staggers for some mid-level attacks; Minor staggers
for a couple of moves (non-interrupt b+P with Jacky, and his Smash hook);
longer hit stuns for interrupts, leading to different combos; Butt
landings (after Akira's SgPalm).
* G-cancelling - Altho you can cancel /some/ of the unblockables in TK2,
many of VF2's kicks can be guard cancelled. This means you can fake many
moves, as well as get nasty/nifty stuff like g-moves, Shun-puri and
Senbon punches.
* Throws -> Attacks - Another small point, but worth mentioning. TK2
had, like VF2, a couple of attack-into-throw moves (King's Grand Smash,
and Nina's Running Scissor jumping thingy)... Course, VF2 only
had /one/ preprogrammed one (TKoD) *blush* However, it didn't have the
throws-into-attacks like Akira's Breakstances, Reverse Bodycheck, and the
various Stumble throws.
* Interrupt vs. Counter (opinionated point) - In some fighting games
(like the SF series), much of the moves were "uncounterable". That is, if
they were blocked, the opponent was not guaranteed a hit in response.
This lead to a nice discussion of Hit Priority. In others (like KI), the
game was instead centred around countering, that is, blocking then
answering, because special moves were counterable. In TK2, combos are
usually counterable, while individual moves (and moves /within/ a combo)
are not. This is the same move variety we get in VF2, where the dichotomy
between counterable and uncounterable isn't as clear as Regular move vs.
Special Move. This is especially true because of such things as Execution
times, which were often small, and within a small range before the advent
of VF/TK.
In TK2, i feel that the hit priorities are so dodgy, and execution
times still only fall within a small range, (with the notable exception of
unblockables, but they're an extreme) that often the game can digress to:
"Do you know when this combo ends?" In VF2, i KNOW if i block Akira's
Dashing Elbow, a PK combo will interrupt a second one (cutting through
arguably the biggest cheese in VF2), but if i block Paul's Smash Elbow,
Power Elbow, and counter with any particular combo, i'll get a variety of
different results (ie. sometimes it's blocked, sometimes it hits even if
they try to block), and not just because of the shallow/deep hit thing.
(and please don't attack my consistency on the buttons here... if you'd
seen me play, you'd know that i can at least counter with consistent
technique). One more thing worth mentioning is that there is usually a
HUGE difference between regular hits and interrupts in VF2... i'm pretty
sure that's a new concept.
I'll admit, this is a small point, but i wanted to mention it.
Are you seeing my point here? The argument goes both ways, in that both
games have elements that the other neglected. Admittedly, many of these
elements are subjective... some people like them, some people don't.
SuperDoug wrote:
> Well, since you got me started, I'll make a little, teeny
> argument for VF2. :)
Better than my big-ass 4 page argument for VF2... i admire your
restraint, SuperDoug :> *bow*
> Japan has had 2 (and is currently holding a third) VF2
> tournaments, in which hundreds of thousands of people signed up. The
> expert players there have rock-star status. The game has been out a year
> and a half and we're still learning new things about the game engine.
> Gamest (a very prestigious video game magazine which writes DETAILED
> analysis abiout games) has written THREE books on VF2, and only only for
> Tekken 2.
'Course, VF2 has been out for longer... but not three times longer.
*shrug* Besides... what do the japanese know? They're only one of the
richest and most successful countries in the world... ;>... actually, if
they're all addicted to VF2, it's a wonder that they get ANYTHING done.
I'm hooked, and i'm sure my GPA is suffering for it :> (maybe i had to
give something genetic up when i came to Canada...)
> VF2 keeps coming out with new twists to the game engine, and
> Tekken2 time releases secret characters (hybrids of the original
> characters mostly). Speaking of the characters, Tekken 2 has 10 normal
> and 12 secret characters that are TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
> Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
> just plain HORRIBLE.
I dunno... it's not /that/ awful, especially when dealing with great
players, but certainly it's not as balanced at the higher levels as VF2.
You guys are just realizing now that Lion might not belong in the bottom
tier :>
> Argh, I have to stop before I get too worked up. :)
Bah... get worked up. It'll keep you from exploding later on :>
I guess i should say what things i actually think are /better/ on TK2
than VF2... hmm... Backgrounds, bone snapping sounds *woo woo!*,
multi-throws (altho they sorta unbalance characters), graphic detail
(Jun's 1+3 throw is exactly what Pai's b+P punch reversal /should/ look
like), *really* cool looking moves (like Paul's Falling Leaf Combo, and
King's 5-part throw)... I dunno... i guess you could say i'm biased, and
that i really prefer VF2. It could be cuz i'm still bitter about the
fact that it takes longer to figure out and crack "cheesers" in TK2 than
VF2. (i put cheesers in quotes because there are actually very few
ultra-cheesy moves in either game... altho some of Lei's combos rank :P)
Oh... one more thing... I think Tekken 2 kicks VF2's ass when it comes to
regular moves and canned combos... damnit, there's so many of them it's
unbelievable!
A word about Rolled combos... Ya, VF2 has 'em... Ya, TK2 has 'em... Ya,
sure, there's way more potential in them than in the SF2 series... Ya,
sure, there's way more potential in TK2 because of the sheer number of
moves... but hell, i was rolling combos back in Double Dragon 1... Kick,
Elbow... Punch, punch, High turning kick (PPK combo! woo woo!)... Kick,
grab, Knee-Knee, back off, Kick, grab, Knee-Knee-Knee... I'm rolling
combos now on Ninja BaseBall Batmen... *fear* :> The point is that
rolled combos have more to do with the player than the game. Very few
games DON'T allow you to roll your own combos.
Boone
>have to get deep into the game and play HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of
>matches in order to really get beyond that and into the active part.
>Then you start seeing how VF2 is really a mind game, a lot like actual
>fighting at champion levels .. it's mental but having the conditioning
>and reflexes is important as well.
then I think my time would be better spent living on the side of a mountain
in Tibet for five years.
10-strings are not just eye-candy, it is true that they are often NOT
effective offenses but they are at least an OPTION in Tekken and they are
not in VF 2. They add to the variety (and dare I say depth) of gameplay.
When did we decide that variety was a bad thing?
If VF purists would play TK 2 ten times against a skilled opponent the
level of depth would become apparent. It is unfortunate that some people
get so sucked into one game that they become oblivious to the merits of all
others. (I agreed with most of the rest of your post by the way.)
Boone
VF2>, 'Rbras...@gnn.com' wrote:
>First of all I think
>that there is only a small percentage of Tekken 2 players out there
>that have reached the strategy and skill level that a lot of the VF2
>players have.
(because it was huge) but I agree entirely with what you have said
particularly the point you make above. Most Tekken 2 players are still
using strategies learned from the original, it is only recently that I have
begun to see real King, Paul, Jun and Lei masters emerge, people who
exploit all the new strategies open to the Tekken 2 incarnations of these
characters. I spent yesterday experimenting with Anna, Nina, P.Jack and
Jack-2 and I found that they really are COMPLETELY different characters
much more so that was the case with the original. It is possible to play
them successfully using old strategies but for anyone to suggest that they
have "used up" all the potential strategies and moves in Tekken 2 is
ludicrous.
Thanks for your informative post.
Boone
VF2>, 'ZU0...@uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu (Allen Dickerson)' wrote:
>This not only offers you an impressive choice of fighting preferences,
>but allows you to custom tailor your style based on previous experience
>with other characters. Not only are there more UNIQUE styles than
>VF2, there are also that many more VARIATIONS on the Unique styles.
>This absolutely can't be used as an argument against TK2 it can ONLY
>be a strong point.
points against it. A few points on the sub-boss system:
The sub-bosses seem redundant to those who don't understand the depth of
strategy in Tekken 2 but to a man (or bear) they are designed to be strong
in areas where their rivals are weak so the battle against them will always
be very trying for someone who has not truly mastered his character. In
addition, (and this relates to strategy) people forget the significance of
small moves (kowaza) and tend to overemphasize the important of a few
shared big moves (Oowaza) when they criticise the sub-bosses. Strategies
for say Nina and Anna are completely different because although their
techniques seem broadly the same, Nina has some strategic weapons (Killing
blade e.t.c.) that Anna doesn't have and vice versa. You will notice that
Nina players don't play Anna and vice versa. Wang is a composite of
Michelle and Paul plus some unique moves, he is slightly slower and shorter
than Michelle but he has reversals to cover that and he has bursts of speed
when he uses a Paul-like powerfist move. Playing Wang involves strategies
unique to him. Because of his height and ability to get in punches
underneath high, and even mid level attacks large opponents like Kuma and
Jack don't really pose that much of a threat to him (Which can't be said
for Paul or Michelle).
Variety rulez!
CreeD
>On Jan 31, 1996 11:27:57 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
>VF2>, 'Cr...@ucla.edu (CreeD)' wrote:
>
>
>>You
>>have to get deep into the game and play HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of
>>matches in order to really get beyond that and into the active part.
>>Then you start seeing how VF2 is really a mind game, a lot like actual
>>fighting at champion levels .. it's mental but having the conditioning
>>and reflexes is important as well.
>
>Interesting post but if it is THAT hard to get any play value out of VF 2
>then I think my time would be better spent living on the side of a mountain
>in Tibet for five years.
>
>10-strings are not just eye-candy, it is true that they are often NOT
>effective offenses but they are at least an OPTION in Tekken and they are
>not in VF 2. They add to the variety (and dare I say depth) of gameplay.
>When did we decide that variety was a bad thing?
>
>If VF purists would play TK 2 ten times against a skilled opponent the
>level of depth would become apparent. It is unfortunate that some people
>get so sucked into one game that they become oblivious to the merits of all
>others. (I agreed with most of the rest of your post by the way.)
it's good to hear that at this ungodly <5:00AM> hour . . I was
wondering if I wasted a ton of breath with that big post.
I'd just like to answer this one since it's short: I didn't say you
don't realize that VF has play value obly after a few hundred hours
and a few thousand matches, I said you maybe begin to undertsand the
absolute level of depth, which is such a subjective term, but.. I
think that's about right. .. anyway, VF2 certainly has it's own play
value aside from the joy of learning some new tidbits about crouch
dashing and stance. . I've watched some scrubs go wild with it. It's
worth playing in its own right although for pure
walk-up-and-try-it-out appeal I'm pretty positive Tekken2 wins.
Brandon Fish
: >This, combined with other Tekken 2 flaws like auto-block and sparklies,
: >clear shows VF2 game mechanics as "more complex" in the very least.
: >How do sparklies affect the gameplay negatively? You may have noticed that
: >FV incorporates them. Auto-block is hardly a flaw.
: >I refuse to flog a dead horse. The subject heading says it all.
: The auto-block in TK2 is for TK2 newbies. It doesn't block low attacks,
: so I don't think it's an overwhelming advantage to competent TK2
: players who stagger their enemies with low attacks, then follow up with
: multi-level (H/M/L) attacks.
: I like the TK2 sparks more than the FV sparks. The colours of the TK2
: sparks tell the players if the attacks hit (red) or miss (white) the
: defender. This gives the players a better idea of what's going on; eg,
: the attacker sees the white sparks and changes the levels of his next
: attacks.
Actually, if you're crouching, then the auto-block does block low.
(Assuming that Auto-Block is turned on in the first place). I've never
really noticed it affecting game-play at all.
Not only do the sparks describe a hit or miss, but they also show a few
other things. The size of the spark is a measure of damage. Each
character has their own style/color scheme of spark (some have different
ones for different moves). And the throw sparks are a different color
all-together. I don't have any experience with FV so I can't really
compare. Personally, I like 'em, but everyone's mileage will vary.
Allen Dickerson
>> While
>>on the ground I can roll to the side OR the invaluable getting up
>>quickly. The only thing VF has that TK2 doesn't from your list is
>>Ring Outs and foot stances, which I might add doesn't matter THAT
>>much in the course of a standard VF game.
you MUST have forgotten to erase this.
The average VF2 match lasts only 15 sec, and I would imagine that
99.99999999% of everyone who has ever played the game did what they
did in total disreguard for stances.
>right there. You killed your argument to the veteran VFers on here.
If this post was for trying to convince veteran VFers, then I would
have given it up long ago, I am posting this for ALL to read.
"doesn't matter that much in the course of a standard VF game." was
refering ONLY to stances, not RO. Ring Outs are an critical strategy,
but I would wager that most veterans haven't been ROed in a long time.
Last time I ROed must have been several weeks ago when I catapult kicked
a Computer Shun and went over him and as I got up he drilled me. very
embarassing. Got him good in 3rd round....
>The stuff he mentioned is ALL important but the ring outs and stances
>are damned important, with any character but ESPECIALLY some. For
>example Lau can upkn rush you right out of the ring and the
>"unimportant" RO suddenly becomes foremost in your head. You might be
>blocking everything he's tossing at you but you're still gojng to do.
>RO is a CONSTANT threat against a GOOD kage.
i'm trying to get closer so I can Ten Foot Toss someone.
BUT THE AVERAGE PLAYER doesn't.
I didn't until last summer when I got serious with the game....
>And stance is incredibly important too. Just by closing your stance
>with any character you're making it harder to be grabbed, which is
>naturally a big part of gameplay in itself, .. but then with some
>characters it goes beyond even that.. like changing your stance to
>that that pesky UPKN rush of lau's WHIFFS and won't RO you.
>It's pretty clear you're not talking master level, but you provided an
>opportunity to help the VFers case by letting us go into specifics of
>why everything is useful. Whereas I see the argument about 3,3,3 ,
Not to 99% of players it ain't....
>1,3,2,whatever , 3,4,1 whatever ... all being different combination
>moves and it just adds to my point that having more attacks doesn't
can build upon combos to get different ones. (sounds like a typical
VF argument, eh? with the legos I mean.)
>mean shit in terms of depth, etc. KI certainly has a lot of moves,
>wow, six attack buttons instead of two or four, wow, about fifty
>different combos PER CHARACTER.. . but again, having those moves and
>combos doesn't mean there's any depth. Nuff said there.
I think I'll call Virtua Fighter 2 "Virtua Fighter 1 with better
overall.... stuff" that'll teach ya!!! er... maybe not....
>>
>>Answer me this though, what exactly do you mean by 'modified
>>moves'?
>>
> There are at least three different ways of "modifying" certain moves
>in VF2 to make them more effective, quicker or easier or faster or
>longer ranged... one method makes it so that by buffering a crouched
>move into a crouch dash, you get your character to do a move but he
>does it at the end of the crouch dash adding range to it. this is
>huge, ... surprise exchange with akira can automatically be followed
>up with a single palm for a piddly amount of damage, maybe twelve
strung together TOTALLY NEW GAMEPLAY!! Well guess what! Anna has
this move where she runs forward and throws you! BRAND SPANKING NEW
GAMEF*CKING PLAY EVERYONE!!!! "you get the character to do a move but
she does it at the end of the dash adding RANGE to it!" <- I copied
your quote adding she instead of he.
Ok, calmed down. Why do VFers think that crouch dashing is the greatest
thing on the Earth. It is used in every example they give at least 5
times.
>percent. But if you "modify" the palm you can get it to come out
>RIGHT behind your opponent and connect harder, making the louder hit
>noise and opening up the possibility for a 25% to 50% hit depending on
>what your opponent tries to do ... all by tacking on that crouch dash.
>In addition you can modify ducking moves so that they come out almost
>instantly, or at least faster, so that lau can combo many m- lifting
>palm moves in a row, increasing his deadliness twenty times. Everyone
>gets into the act with modified moves. Akira can do his double palm
>without charging, characters can do ducking attacks faster, wold and
>jeff can zip into range for some of their best throw moves, .. this
>all comes from special controlled techniques applied to moves that
>require crouching first or a d, d/f motion.
>
>
a jumpkick without running, its in his arsenal just like Akira's
double palm without dashing. Crouch Dashing is not the know all
end all of martial arts. Nor is it a deciding factor in Fighting
games. Its simply doing a different movement in place of another.
The crouch dash takes the place of the normal dash, thats why Jeff
and Wolf can get into range, why Lau can do lifting punches why
Akira can do a palm without charging. Actually Akira technically
DOES dash, he just does it as a crouch dash. Its like in TK2 where
Nina has four different ways to pull off a double palm thrust. She
can do one or two punches and go into it,(1,2,f+1+2) can dash into
it (f,f+1+2) can do it without dashing(HCF,1+2) or do it after a run
(while running f,f+1+2)
>>As stated above, things like tackling give each character a larger
>>base of standard moves, which in turn results in more options.
>
>that's the most logical thing I've heard out of you or anyone in favor
>of TK2 yet. I am inclined to actually believe it <GASP!>
>
VF2 and then smack them when they are on the ground. Even as a special
move. That limits the characters....
....
>>if -=your=- logical reasoning is what you said several paragraphs ago
>>when you listed all these great wonderful VF achievements, then it
>>is obvious that you need to invest more than .50 in TK2, but this
>>time wait for that guy who kicked your butt to get off the machine
>>first.
>>
>another good point. I don't see master TK2ers, ever, play, I'm pretty
>sure, so it's a little easier for me to back my arguments and presume,
>and a little harder to believe others...
>But the same can be said of the TK2 players as well who would argue VF
>lacks depth or does not even approach TK2 in depth. It's clear that
>there's a bias, intentional or not.
>
opinion that TK2 is just 'KI with throws' and I want to prove them
wrong. It is a fantastic game, Namco did a great job at putting it
together. Just like AM2 made VF a good game, too. But TK2 is not this
piece of KI copy crap that VFers want everyone to think it is. Read my
previous posts. I don't say ONE BAD THING about VF2. What I do talk
about is VFers saying "Well we have this this this this this blah blah
blah blah and Tekken simply sucks because we are better."
>>
>
>I have to disagree, I absolutely love the motion capture in VF and
>it's such a clear difference when compared to FV. I like the movement
>in TK2 fine but I think that it's not at all better.
>
them. If you aren't impressed by TK2s 'showmanship' but are by VF2,
then maybe your machine is set on the raerly used 'crappy motion mode'.
Check out Lei's throw where he launches himself off you and then go
watch Kage or Jacky throw. TK2 looks spectacular in these areas.
>
>>If only we had a game that had VF2 graphics and Tekken Motion and
>>the best features of each! uh, SOUL EDGE!!! Heh heh.
>>(actually I haven't played it yet, but I've heard rumors....)
>
> I have too, but I dunno about it. I'll put my bets on VF3 instead.
>
end of this year. That sucks because VF3 is supposed to be awesome.
Stuff like 1000 polygons in the face sounds awesome but thanks to
Sega and AM2 they are not going near it, hopeing to rake in more
money from VF2 and Fighting Vipers(which I think is a nice little
fighting game) Hell, if they wait for VF2 to die down in Japan
we're looking at 2012.....
>
Allen Dickerson
>> almost half as many moves as VF2 has IN TOTAL. *ack*
>
>to 600?
***ROTFL*** 1,200 moves!!! no.
Breaking it down I would say each VF character has about 15-20 techniques
which of course as the VFer community will be quick to point out
CAN be modified(no arguments here) Crouch dashing into Akira's stun
palm isn't a new move. Its a new way to do an old move. Instead of
dashing you replace it with a crouch dash. I would have to say that
overall there are around 100-120 moves (everyone combined) I KNOW
that TK2 has around 350-500 techniques, because every character has
at least 2-4 moves that noone else has (23 characters = 100 moves)
plus the 12 originals have around 30-40 moves apiece. That makes
360-480 common techniques(overall, remember) and around 100 individual
moves that no one else has. If you don't believe me go count em up
in the FAQ of the respective games.
Big Cat was exagerating(you were... BC?)
David Aldridge
BigCat *meow* (us...@cs.mcgill.ca) writes:
> A couple of points... First, i feel that TK2 has more potential for
> "do-it-'yerself" combos (i call 'em canned combos, cuz it's shorter)
> because there are just more moves per player... WAY more moves. That's
> what comes from having 4 attack buttons PLUS joystick motions for most
Brady Prigge
>sats...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
VF2, on the other hand, has
>new techniques and tactics popping up every now and then. such as:
>
>run in and throw. holding F for deeper punches. G-cancelling.
>counters and interrupts. uncounterable moves and what to do with
>them. foot positioning and stance. anti-RO tactics. staggering and
>how to deal with it, what do do with it. reversals and how to deal
>with them. oki-zeme. modified moves. kick-cancelling. senbon.
>crouch dashing.
>that's most of it, but not all.
>
About half of those techniques have not "popped up lately", but rather,
are elements of the game, ie Guard cancelling anything, anti-RO and
staggering. I will give you m-moves, senbon and stance however, as I have
not heard of these outside rgva yet, and they are indeed effective
techniques.
>>If your logical reasoning takes the form of the above too patterns then it
>>is possible to defend the idea that VF2 offers more complex gameplay.
>
>if -your- logical reasoning only lets you see pro-VF2 arguments in
>said two patterns, then it is obvious that you need a quick cuppa
>before replying.
>
>i say again. someone PLEASE bring up the case for Tekken2 gameplay
>and complexity (preferably without the anti-VF2 statements in place)
>so that we can have a better basis for comparison. facts, please, and
>don't even bother to mention the endlessly-debated graphics.
You are right to question the level of gameplay in Tekken 2 when you
never see any developed strategies or tehniques posted anywhere.
Sometimes I feel like the best Tekken2 player on the 'net! Which is
incredibally sad because I know of people (mostly those who play both VF2
AND Tekken2 VERY well) that could beat me handily. I do have some tactics
that I have never seen nor heard of anyone using besides myself, some of
which are:uppercut traps, Using "Lei" down to its full extent and
generally just wiping out any form of cheapness anyone can come up with.
Ill post some of these next week.
As for Tekken2 gameplay deepness, I think Tekken2 has ALOT of features
that VF2 does not.
>--
>Colin Leong
>- Co...@MAILHOST.NET
>- leo...@singnet.com.sg
>know what you know and also what you know not... that is true knowledge.
>
_________________________________________.
compared to a phantom, a ghost is a joke_|
compared to a robot, phantom is King_____|
^^^^^^^^^^^godheadSilo^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Brady Prigge !@! prig...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
CreeD
>On Jan 31, 1996 11:53:18 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
>VF2>, 'Cr...@ucla.edu (CreeD)' wrote:
>
>
>>If so that was >hardly< a really well thought out and effective
>>argument, and as to the refutations..
>>did it occur to you that people might simply be more secure in the
>>game they like and don't feel the need to constantly challenge others
>>and/or defend it?
>
>Thanks for the mega-long response but I think that perhaps you are
>projecting your own insecurities onto myself and others.
D'oH! ... you're welcome. I tend to go overboard with these things,
but then again I type like a maniac so it's not too hard to get
longwinded. I am not really insecure and I think of allt he frequent
VF posters I have given TK2 the MOST credit or at least acknowledged
it to a greater extent than most others.
> I have not been
>trying to challenge VF2's merits or force anyone to defend it. I have
>stated numerous times that I encourage people to play what they like
>because I certainly do. You will have noticed (If you follow this
>newsgroup) that some VFfers have attempted to dismiss TK2 as simply
>"Eye-candy", a rip-off of VF 2 and a game which lacks solid gameplay and
>does not require strategy to win. Needless to say that those of us who play
>Tekken 2 get tired of wading through those posts.
You're right. Your original post was not confrontational in any way
and was an honest attempt to defend, not attack. If you want to put
it that way. I've tried not to be as dismissive as some of the other
VF fanatics, and I realize that at times I wax religious on the
subject. But it's really. . . as I have said before, it's difficult
to explain and hard to believe anything approaches VF2 once you get
sucked into it.
> My ONLY point has been to
>show that when you really break down the play mechanics/system of both
>games it is clear that TK2 involves certainly NO LESS strategy than VF2 and
>is innovative and varied in ways that VF2 is not.
but I think you should be fair and acknowledge in the same breath
that VF2 is in ways TK2 is not. And remember which one came out
first. It's easier to copy than to innovate, I'm not saying all of
TK2 is copied, but it's certain that VF2 wasn't a major influence on
it in terms of moves and even style to some extent.
> The dismissive attitude
>that some VFfers have show towards TK2 is without any real basis or merit.
Well, actually, there is a basis although it's a weak one from a
really objective POV: Tekken two has a LOT that seems to be apparent
eye candy. Any game where every character has a hardwired ten hit
"combo" <I know it's not a combo> gives a certain impression about
what was on the designers' minds at the time of conception.
>The popularity of either game is not an issue for me, neither are the
>graphics (Which are largely irrelevant to the play mechanics).
yep.
> Furthermore,
>I have not been trying to make any statement about which game is "better"
>because I have no idea what any such statement could possibly mean. (Better
>for what?). I thinkthat most people who do not have a quasi-religious
>devotion to VF2 have understood my perspective and have posted valuable
>comments.
>
but a few who do have the quasi religious fervor do as well. Don't
count the fanatics out just for being so fanatic..
>Frankly, I had initially thought I was alone in my position but apparently
>many others share my perspective and have written responses far more
>eloquent than I am capable of. Along the way a few ideas have emerged which
>will be beneficial to both games in their next incarnations. I think that
>the point has been made and I willing to rest my case.
well.. I guess that's fine with me, I'm too tired to argue it any
further tonight at least ;)
Michael Jason Lewis
Allen Dickerson <ZU0...@uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu> wrote:
}>> moves. I'd be willing to say that many of the characters in TK2 have
}>> almost half as many moves as VF2 has IN TOTAL. *ack*
}>
}>VF2 offers 1,200 executable moves. Which character(s) in TK2 offer close
}>to 600?
}
}
}Breaking it down I would say each VF character has about 15-20 techniques
}which of course as the VFer community will be quick to point out
}overall there are around 100-120 moves (everyone combined).
Well, from a quick scan of the FAQs for VF2, it appears that most characters
have between 60 and 70 different moves. (Note that, for example, I am
counting PPP as different from P for Shun but not for Kage, as you don't
really get anything new and exciting from Kage but Shun actually does
different punches.) I'm not sure where the 1,200 comes in either,
especially stated as it is as a basic fact--perhaps it does include the
c-SPOD (or even the SPOD) as separate techniques. I don't count either of
those, as they're made up of moves that have been counted already.
Again, I am counting moves that are _visually_ different, not executed
differently.
The above total does not count running, crouch dashing, or jumping as moves,
either. Does Tekken have different jump heights or float times based on
weight?
- Mike
Donny Chan
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade
>Subject: Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than VF2
>Date: 30 Jan 1996 21:14:48 GMT
>Organization: Pipeline USA
>On Jan 30, 1996 12:35:14 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
VF2>, 'jir...@quark.phys.ufl.edu (Jirawat Uttayaya)' wrote:
>This, combined with other Tekken 2 flaws like auto-block and sparklies,
>clear shows VF2 game mechanics as "more complex" in the very least.
>How do sparklies affect the gameplay negatively? You may have noticed that
>FV incorporates them. Auto-block is hardly a flaw.
>I refuse to flog a dead horse. The subject heading says it all.
The auto-block in TK2 is for TK2 newbies. It doesn't block low attacks,
so I don't think it's an overwhelming advantage to competent TK2
players who stagger their enemies with low attacks, then follow up with
multi-level (H/M/L) attacks.
I like the TK2 sparks more than the FV sparks. The colours of the TK2
sparks tell the players if the attacks hit (red) or miss (white) the
defender. This gives the players a better idea of what's going on; eg,
the attacker sees the white sparks and changes the levels of his next
attacks.
Don Chan (Pai-chan/others)
---
* DeLuxe2 1.21 #6922 * "Toryaaa!" - Kage-Maru, Virtua Fighter 2
CreeD
>Hi there!
>Now this has to stop!
>Anyone bringing up some comparison between VF2 and TK2 has serious problems.
>1. You can't find competition on your respective games so you slam the
>other game.
>2. You actually feel inferior playing the game because someone else slams
>the game you play with tons of useless critical comments.
>3. You have stupid visions of grandeur of "TK2 or VF2 is the greatest"
>and start proclaiming its superiority.
>Wake up your bloody ideas! There are people who like certain games and
>like them despite of the faults they have.
>So stop harping or complaining that the other party is dumb and stupid.
>Enjoy the game you prefer. Occasionally check out what the others are
>doing with their preferred games and what they entail. Who knows a TK2
>tactics and VF2 tactics can find some common ground for some discussion
>and not some idiotic flamewar.
>--
>Jin Ngee, Chia
>(Genie, the OligoMan)
>mcbl...@leonis.nus.sg
>Views and opinions expressed are solely mine and not of my employer's.
>Any further grievances can be settled over a Virtua Fighter 2 match.
chill, it really has not turned into an idiotic flame war, in fact
it's getting better as more people respond, not worse. I would much
rather go over this point than the PC's versus consoles threads, and
I'd much rather have a controlled arguments than mutual boredom.
Boone
informative 'fer 'lil dummies like me). For those who missed it I wanted to
repost what I thought was the best contribution to the thread. I have
nothing meaningful to add to this so consider it my swan song from this
thread. (its been real!(Virtual?))
From: Rbras...@gnn.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade
Subject: Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than VF2
31 Jan 1996
Well I seem to have lost the focus of this thread somewhere along
the line. It seems to have started out as an argument of the amount
of strategy involved in TK2 and VF2, but it seems to have turned into
a free for all bashing for each other's games and arguing mute points
about which is better (graphics, fun, realistic moves, popularity,
etc.). It should be obvious by now in this thread that these points
can not be argued and won by either side. The use of the term
"better" is what is stopping these arguments from a conclusion.
"Better" is a word that is sacred only to ourselves. When we argue
this point it is unclear what "better" we are talking about. Take for
instance an argument about 2 cars: a Honda Civic and a Ford Mustang.
If we were asked to reply to which was better we would first have to
know what was meant by better. With no explanation I have a feeling
that the Mustang would win hands down most of the time. It's faster,
more expensive, handles better, etc..., but does that make it better?
One could also say the Civic is better because it has better gas
mileage, it's cheaper, more cargo room, etc.. Some points like
handling can even be addressed as better by either one as well. The
Civic may handle better at normal speeds while the Mustang at higher
speeds. All of these points are irrelevant in this argument because
we don't even know what we're arguing about. Now if we were asked
"which is more economical" it would be easier to argue. Clearly the
Civic would be the more popular choice but even that would be argued
by Mustang lovers. The point is that better is something that each
individual must decide for themselves. No matter what is said on this
thread each person will ultimately decide from his or her own
preferences.
I have not replied to this thread to argue which game is better.
It is a waste of my time and yours as well. I have my beliefs as well
as do all of you. I will state that I personally like Tekken 2
better. If I was asked to explain exactly why I liked Tekken 2 better
than VF2 I probably could not. There are many points I could make,
but I probably could not pin point the one thing that ultimately
decides my choice. I believe that it is a combination of virtues that
help to decide my position. From a visual point of view I would say
that I prefer TK2 over VF2 because of it's style. I like the dark
forbidding look of Tekken 2. I like that fact that the characters are
evil and even some ugly. I like that fact that you can break bones
and choke people. In a sense it is more reminiscent of a"real world"
street fight than VF2's style. Not from a purists point of view, but
from a real world street fight point of view. I would say that the
fighting in VF2 would be something that you would see in an actual
sponsored tournament while TK2 fighting would seem to be found in an
alley somewhere outside of a bar. This is the way it should be. VF2
is supposed to be realistic while TK2 is supposed to be more
fantastic. Watching someone getting their face bashed after being
tackled in Tekken 2 is something I have also seen happen in real life.
Sure the sparks and juggle combos aren't realistic but it would be
virtualy(no pun intended) impossible to make a fighting game as
realistic as a real fight. There are too many variables and styles
out there to attempt to recreate on an arcade screen. Even the purist
style of VF2 doesn't come that close to a true fighting experience. I
will say that I believe that the actual moves in VF2 are more faithful
to reality than Tekken's, but I also believe that the mechanics of
Tekken 2 seem more reminiscent of a street fight. Anyone who has
witnessed a real street fight will know that most end up on the ground
even when accomplished martial artists are fighting. This is one
reason why a true fighting game cannot be realistically translated to
a game. It would be to hard to configure a control scheme that would
allow the freedom of movement that a real fight requires: ground
fighting, grappling, submission holds, etc. Tekken 2 doesn't come
close to this either, but it does allow some ground fighting and also
some ground reversals(Paul's face punch counter). This in no way
comes close to real fighting but it is a step in the right direction.
Sure TK2 also has many unrealistic moves and characters as well but
that is what makes it different. I think that if TK2 was more like
VF2 it would be more offensive to VF2 players because it would be more
of a clone. TK2 breaks away from the VF2 game play in many ways and
those are the factors in which people decide which is "better" for
them. Remember that this is only MY opinion. I respect all VF2
players as well as the players of other fighting games. I in no way
feel that TK2 is better than any other game out there. I believe it
is better for me, but that's it. Maybe it's not better for you. I do
not dislike other fighting games because of a blind devotion to Tekken
2 either. I give all games a fair shot and if I do not like them then
I just don't play them. I don't go around flaming other fighting
games and gamers needlesly like some of you out there. I am not just
pointing the finger at some of the VF players either. There are many
Tekken 2, SF, and KI players who are just as guilty. I have seen some
references that TK2 is just a Killer Instinct with grabs and frankly
it offends me. I feel that is an unfair statement, but I also can see
why it was made. Before the thread was corrupted it originally began
as an argument over the strategies or lack of them in TK2. There were
also some good points by VF2 players that said if there was so much
strategy in Tekken 2 then why aren't there any discussions about it on
this news group. That is a very good question indeed. I suspect that
part of the reason is because I believe TK2 is a little easier to get
started to play than VF2 is. Therefore I think that there are more
newcomers to Tekken 2 and most are still learning a lot. VF2 has been
out a lot longer than TK2 so I suspect that some strategies have yet
been discovered. So, to prove to the inquiring VF2 players I will
explain some of the strategies that can be applied by a good Tekken 2
player.
>> Tekken2 is Killer Instinct with throws. Sorry if that was vicious
>> backhanded slap, but if you think about it the prime discussion centers
>> around combo memorization/timing and how and where to break combos.
>> Once everyone gets all of that down pat, the game will become more like
>> VF2: lots of running around and safe pecking attacks mixed with throw
>> attempts.
Either this guy has played TK2 only 5 times or he was watching
some beginners play because this statement holds little truth. I will
admit that TK2 relies more on combos than VF2 but in no way does that
mean that it is it's only strategy. Sure there are a lot of combos
but there is also a lot of other strategy that I will explain in a
bit. I am most offended that he referred to it like KI because in KI
you can do a 30 hit combo with 5 buttons while in TK2 you must hit the
buttons 10 times to do a 10 hit string. Notice that I use the word
string and not combo as well. These are not meant to be combos. They
are a mere string of moves tied together to force your opponent to
guard and to refer to them as combos is clearly a misuse of the word.
On Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:13:27 GMT, leo...@singnet.com.sg (Colin Leong)
wrote:
>and complexity (preferably without the anti-VF2 statements in place)
>so that we can have a better basis for comparison. facts, please, and
>don't even bother to mention the endlessly-debated graphics.
my standing in this debate. This is a very good question and I
respect you for being fair and asking it before flaming like the rest
of them. Before I start though I would like to address why I think
that there is not a lot of talk of strategy. First of all I think
that have reached the strategy and skill level that a lot of the VF2
happen. It may never BE as big as VF2 but the fact is it will
eventually BE. What I personally think is that TK2 is far enough away
from VF2 that in a way it has sparked it's own strategy genre. Give
me a minute before flaming me please. Think about it. When VF2 came
out it brought A LOT of people to it. It was a dramatic step above
VF1 in graphics and game play. It attracted a lot of followers and is
almost considered a religion. But there was also a lot of fighting
fans who didn't like it because of various reasons. Then a game
called Tekken comes out and is placed next to VF2. Graphically
inferior and weird play mechanics kept most VF2 players away. It
attracted a small following but not anything big. Then TK2 comes out.
It was more graphically competitive with VF2 than Tekken 1 and a lot
of new game play elements were introduced. Die hard VF2 fans were
mildy interested and some experimented, but most stayed with VF2. Now
some of the players who weren't interested in VF2 see TK2 with it's
flashier moves and combos and become interested. The problem is this
is there first encounter with a 3-D game so they are not used to it.
They either have to be weaned off of MK, SFA, SS, etc..., or they are
new comers all together to the fighting game scene. Therefore there
is a lot of undiscovered country in TK2. There are new techniques
popping up all of the time but not all of them get onto the newsgroups
because some might seem obscure. Sure there are some basic techniques
for all fighters but since most fighters in TK2 have some sort of
escape movement(axis shifting, sidestep, reversal,etc...) the
strategies are more character based. Then the fact that there are 23
characters means that there are 23 different strategies. Yes some
characters are like others but there is usually enough difference that
it requires new strategy. VF2 players admit that even though Wolf and
Jeffry are alike characters but are very different to play so why
should it be any different to TK2? Sound far fetched? It might, but
I believe this is for the most part true. Namco put a lot of effort
into this game and I feel that it has evolved from an attempt at a VF
clone to a truly great fighter of it's own rite. Now that I've
covered that, I will address your challenge at explaining some Tekken
strategy. Like I said there is a lot for different players but I will
go over some broad ones and then discuss some Kazuya advanced tactics
since he is my best character.
Multi grabs in TK2 have had some mixed reviews so I'll start with
them. I have heard complaints about them being to easy to break but
that is not always true. First there are some that aren't
breakable(namely Nina's), but they are harder to get off. Second,
King has some options. His 5 part combo can be started 2 ways which
will ultimately decide which counters will break it. In other words
the same multi grab has two ways to start therefore there is two
different ways to break it. He can start it with 1+3 or 2+4. After
the first grab(reverse arm clutch) he will go into the backdrop.
Countering the backdrop depends on which buttons he started the arm
clutch with. If he started it with 1+3 then the reversal is 1+2,
however if he started with 2+4 the reversal is 2+4. You have a 50%
chance of breaking out(if you know the counters). Sorry, hitting both
counters really fast won't help. It will only accept one. Then his
third grab can be countered as well. Obviously if you tried to
counter the 2nd grab but failed then you know that you have to switch
to the other counters. Grab number 3(german suplex) can be countered
by 3+4 or 1+2 depending on which he used first. Are you following me
here? We know that by process of elimination that if we tried to
counter grab 2 with 1+2 and it didn't work then we have to counter
grab 3 with 1+2 right? By the way you only have about 2 seconds to
make that choice. You can't counter the 4th grab(powerbomb) so if you
miss the counter on the third then your next chance at a counter is
number 5. 5 is counter able with 3+4 or 1+2 again depending on what
the starting grab was initiated with. Am I making my point here? The
countering isn't always a no brainer. Nina and Anna have choices as
well. From the chin bash they can multi part into 1 of 2 other grabs,
each having their own counters and so on. I am trying to make a point
but I don't know if I am exceeding. Enough on grabs. I'll go into
some Kazuya tactics. First of all 3 of his special moves start with
the f,d,df+ movement(dragon punch motion). Many don't realize that
this is a move in itself. Doing the motion by itself makes him go
into the animation I like to call the "quick forward duck". He ducks
down and rushes forward a few steps, which by the way happens to duck
under high attacks. What people don't know is that anytime during
that movement he can do any of the f,d,df+ moves. The animation lasts
for approximately 1 second so you have the choice to choose what you
want to hit with based upon your opponents position. For instance if
you come in with a quick forward duck and they are standing you can
use rk to do his hell sweeps for an easy 2 hits. If you come in and
they are ducking then you have the choice of hitting them with the
Thunder God fist or the Power uppercut depending on your preference.
The God fist is slow but takes of good damage. The power punch is
fast and will set them up for a juggle combo in which Kazuya has many.
But that's not all you can do from that ducking dash. You can also
let the controller go to neutral after initiating the dash and perform
his double axe kick. You can also initiate a grab from any time in
the forward ducking motion. If you wait the full second till right
when the animation stops you can perform his ducking stun punch which
will stun an opponent upon connecting. And when their stunned you can
also initiate a juggle combo if you time it right. It's not easy but
with practice it can be done. So let's see. Not only does the quick
forward duck bring you in close to an opponent, but it also ducks
underneath their high attacks as well. And then from there you have
many options. You can do any of the moves I just explained at any
time during the animation so you can initiate it immediately or wait a
split second to see if you can find a way through their guard. Since
he has this "quick forward duck" I use a cushion when I fight with
him. It is basically the distance that the forward duck will cover.
That way I can be next to my opponent at any time I choose. Now for
some more good news. Kazuya now has a move called axis shift where
he, well... axis shifts. By hitting forward and then letting the
controller go back to neutral you will sidestep out the opponents
direct path. If your opponent is not attacking, all they have to do
is move and they will automatically face you but if you do it when
they are attacking then they will stay on their plane and you can
attack. Sounds good but it's not perfect. Some characters' moves
will still follow you such as King's Frankensteiner and some
characters like Jun have attacks that sweep through different axis so
she can hit you even if not on the same axis. Does that make sense?
My point being you can still be attacked even though you switched
axis. But when used correctly it can be deadly especially because it
has a unique ability. It can be buffered with his f,d,df+ motion.
The f for the axis shift can be used as the first movement of the
dragon punch motion. Therefore you can hit f,n(neutral) to shift axis
and then immediately do d,df+ whichever of the moves I explained
earlier. This is a deadly combination because you can dodge an
opponents attack and IMMEDIATELY counter them. You can also do any of
his jab combos or grabs after the axis shift as well so you have a
huge list of options from the axis shift. Before I forget to mention
it, Kazuya can also kick after his Thunder God fist. For those who
don't know what that is, it is basically a dragon punch. You can
choose to mid-kick or hell sweep on the way down from the it. So if
they block the uppercut you can still surprise them with a kick of
your choice.
Well that was just a small sample of some strategy for Kazuya.
He also has much more but it would take a whole faq to go into
detail(which I am currently writing). The point I am trying to get
across is that Tekken 2 as well as VF2 is loaded with strategy. It's
just that it is still young and with the time release, the characters
that are playable throughout the country(or world for that matter)are
very inconsistent. Some arcades only have 12 characters, while others
have had all 23 for some time. There are also a lot of people out
there with strategy but since TK2 is easier to play for a begginer I
suspect most of the people on this news group are looking for answers
instead of giving them.
On 29 Jan 1996 06:40:11 GMT, do...@umd.umich.edu (Douglas William
> Japan has had 2 (and is currently holding a third) VF2
>tournaments, in which hundreds of thousands of people signed up. The
>expert players there have rock-star status. The game has been out a year
>and a half and we're still learning new things about the game engine.
>Gamest (a very prestigious video game magazine which writes DETAILED
>analysis abiout games) has written THREE books on VF2, and only only for
>Tekken 2.
This is exactly the thing that gives VF2 players a bad name.
Just because it is popular in Japan doesn't mean it HAS to be popular
here. I love Japanese games and I am disgusted at the American game
scene but just because a game is popular in Japan, doesn't make it
superior to all other games. Sure VF2 is more popular in Japan than
TK2 but that doesn't mean they don't like it. Sega is also a lot more
popular in Japan than in America but I don't think this is helping out
the sales of the American Saturn!
>
> VF2 keeps coming out with new twists to the game engine, and
>Tekken2 time releases secret characters (hybrids of the original
>characters mostly). Speaking of the characters, Tekken 2 has 10 normal
>and 12 secret characters that are TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
>Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
Again I have to say that this person has no idea what he is
talking about. Think about it. There are 23 characters total that
are playable(in some arcades) each having there own style so isn't it
possible that the reason it seems unbalanced is that no one has
figured out the best way to play the characters in your area. I have
not played at an arcade where there is just a few characters that are
killing everybody. It is "how" you play, not "who" you play. I admit
some characters seem weaker than others(ie, Kunimitsu) but perhaps no
one has found the best way of playing her yet.
On 30 Jan 1996 12:35:14 GMT, jir...@quark.phys.ufl.edu (Jirawat
Uttayaya) wrote:
>I think main flaw of Tekken 2 can be summed up in one word: constraint.
>Tekken 2 often times forces you into its predefined sequence. Take
>for example running. When you run towards someone in Tekken 2, you are
>locked into Tekken 2 running options, ie. tackle, slide, stop. In VF2,
>running towards your opponent does not limit your options in any way.
>You still have your full range of of moves and throws. With 10 hits,
>you are limited by two options, do or do not. Either you do the sequence
>or you don't. With guard canceling in VF2, you have the option either
>to continue with the precanned combo or switch to a regular attack.
>With Tekken 2 multi-throws, if you mess up the motion of your multi-throw
>the sequence stops and the initiator just moves away. While VF2 one has
>one multi-throw, the SPoD, if Akira messes up the first part of the SPoD,
>can try to reverse, block, run away, attack, throw, etc. Likewise, the
>victim can try to reverse, block, run away, attack, throw, etc. If
>Akira messes up the second part of the SPoD, a whole new world of turn
>around attacks is opened. VF2 does not force you to only perform certain
>actions.
>
>Another level of complexity of VF2 is that attacks affect different
>opponents differently. Lau's sidekick has different effects depending
>whether his opponent is Pai, Akira, or Jeffry. Certain combos and moves
>affect certain opponents and not others. Thus not only must you
>know yourself but also your opponent.
>
>This, combined with other Tekken 2 flaws like auto-block and sparklies,
>clear shows VF2 game mechanics as "more complex" in the very least.
>However Tekken 2 gameplay is still pretty good and it's fun to play.
>The only thing I'm saying is VF2 game mechanics takes more thought
>and insight. While I personally prefer those types of games, your
>mileage may vary.
Some 10 hit strings like Jun's have change up moves so you can't
know where they are going to hit. For instance say that her 10 hits
start with 3 high hits. Then she may have a choice to go low or high
on the fourth hit. This will also be the blocking point that will
allow you to block if the first three hits or even counter her if you
know how. She might decide to go low on the next hit so if you block
high you will be hit by the next series of moves until the next
blocking point. Then some characters have another option to hit high
or low again so if you make the wrong decisions the whole string may
hit. However if you do correctly block the change up then you may
counter her after the last hit because she will be semi-vulnerable.
It is also possible to hit them out of their string if you know when
and how. My point is that all moves are NOT pre described. You can
also stop your attack anytime you want. Just because the move sheet
says 3,3,3,4 doesn't mean that you can't hit 3,3,3 and them grab them
or maybe throw in a surprise sweep. As for the auto-blocking, it is
only a setting and can be turned off by the arcade operator. It is
usually turned so that the begging player has a chance against one who
has played before. In no way does it help against a serious player.
Well that's all I have to say. Remember that this is just my opinion
and in no way am I forcing my beliefs on anyone. I respect all
players, I am just putting my 2 cents in and defending my game. Flame
me if you want but be prepared, I might counter it(just joking).
Slikatel
Boone
VF2>, 'Cr...@ucla.edu (CreeD)' wrote:
>Secondly crouch
>dashes are, obviously, from a crouched position, and so moves like the
>single palm and double palm, which both usually require akira to be in
>a crouch first, only work after a crouch dash and not a regular one.
Heihachi, Nina, Anna, Kazuya, Wang and a few other characters can all
"crouch dash" except us Tekkenites call it "hovering". Of course they all
have attacks that can be launched only from that position or it can simply
be used to get close to an opponent by moving underneath high attacks. It
ain't such a big deal and it certainly ain't unique to VF2.
Hey! Can you hear that dull thud sound in the distance?
(Its a dead horse being flogged.)
Anyway, I'm moving tonight so I will lose net-access for a while (Sob,
whimper). I know I can trust y'all to keep the flames burning until I'm
back on-line.
______
Satsujinki.
Chae An
In article <DM0oL...@cunews.carleton.ca>, Sitson Lee at
efl...@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca says...
>: be beaten. Maybe a better word would be , I am 'unbeatable' with
>: Kage, and perhaps I will tack on, 'where I play' Satisfied?
>: Or perhaps I could say I am the 'master' of the local VF.
>: Either way your last comment was pretty invalid and could be
>: considered an attack on me, which one VFer said that all VFers
>: 'never' do. So thanks for proving him wrong.
That's a laugh! I'm a master at VF2 where I play, by your definition. But
then, no one else here plays VF2 serious. Come on, who cares who is the "master"
of what anyway?
>I play TK2 just for the hell of it. I get easy win streaks against local
>guys who I see play the machine everyday and could almost finish the CPU.
I play Tekken because that's what other people play around here. I'm not
just another sheep in a herd, however. On the contrary, I love the competition and
the only way I can play against other human is to play Tekken2. It is a neat game
and I'm quite proficient in it. But in almost 3 months I 've been playing this game,
I've never even gotten to a sub-boss in the game, although I have beaten all the local
regulars and held on to winning streaks the TK2 regulars always seem to be
bragging about. I suppose when KI2 comes out here, I'd have to migrate to KI2
too even though I hated the first incarnation of that atrocious game, just for the
competition's sake.
The point of this rambling post is that: skills don't matter, "mastery"
doesn't matter, and dare I say "gameplay" and "depths" don't matter. All of the
abovementioned, plus a healthy chunk of intangible, go toward the overall enjoyment
of the game. And, of course, "enjoyment" is a subjective experience. So all the
objective arguments about the other stuff to prove what is essentially a "subjective"
experience seem to me a waste of time. Just go out there and see if can get yourself
some competent competition and have fun, I think.
--C h a e
- --
cha...@hom.net cha...@best.com
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CreeD
>>> moves. I'd be willing to say that many of the characters in TK2 have
>>> almost half as many moves as VF2 has IN TOTAL. *ack*
>>
>>VF2 offers 1,200 executable moves. Which character(s) in TK2 offer close
>>to 600?
>
>***ROTFL*** 1,200 moves!!! no.
>
>Breaking it down I would say each VF character has about 15-20 techniques
nonono...
>which of course as the VFer community will be quick to point out
>CAN be modified(no arguments here) Crouch dashing into Akira's stun
>palm isn't a new move. Its a new way to do an old move. Instead of
>dashing you replace it with a crouch dash.
first of all that's not quite what's happening but I did that in
another post. He is not counting those, he's counting just moves.
I'm not going to say VF2 has more moves than TK2, I'm convinced TK2
has more moves than VF2. That doesn't say anything about depth or
whatever, but for sheer number or total moves, that counts...anyway...
I would have to say that
>overall there are around 100-120 moves (everyone combined)
take out the everyone combined and put in each and you get something
closer.
I'm going to assume even dinky little jabs count, okay?
here's lion:
jab.
high kick.
low jab.
low kick.
double low kick sweeps <yeah it's different, believe it or not>
uppercut.
double uppercut.
creeping double pokes.
low single lunging poke
low double lunging poke.
sidekick.
high roundhouse after low swipe kick.
foot sweep.
slide.
double handstand sweep.
step spinning high kick.
turn-away high kick.
turn-away roundhouse/jumping kick.
turnaway punch.
knee.
lunging elbow.
lunging chop.
double power poke <aka the pecker>
dodge/counter poke.
weird little spinny slap <dunno what else to call it.
G,d/f+P: I dunno what to call it and never seen it.
with back turned: turnaround double pecks.
turnaround roundhouse.
turnaround sweep.
turnaround mid punch.
twirling uppercut.
hopping overhead chop.
single "dancer kick"
double "dancer kick"
rolling overhead foot swat.
hopping attacks: let's just say one hopping kick and
one jopping punch.
hopping sidekick.
hopping sweep.
hopping high jab.
big jump attacks: takeoff kick
descending jumpkick <yes it's different>
descending rolling heel kick.
descending hammer.
rising attacks: let's just say four because although the attacks
while getting up change depending on whether you go high or low, or
whether your head is facing toward or away from your opponent, or
whether you're on your stomach or back...
these really are different. head away on stomach rising low kick is a
weird ldouble handstand kick. head towards on stomach is a quick
shortrange sweep.
throws:
lion has four from the front and one from behind.
misc: forward and backwards dodges.
light pounce and high/heavy pounce.
these were all off the top of my head, I might have missed one or two.
they add up to at least fifty I'm guessing. I didn't even count the
different kicks and punches that come out with PPP and PK although
they are totally different in terms of range, recovery, and animation
from other moves he has. So at least 500 moves total if at least
fifty per character is correct.
assuming more or less even distribution of moves. The grapplers tend
to have fewer regular moves but do have like ten throws apiece.
Other characters have another option on downed opponents and more PPPK
type combos.
>I KNOW
>that TK2 has around 350-500 techniques, because every character has
>at least 2-4 moves that noone else has (23 characters = 100 moves)
>plus the 12 originals have around 30-40 moves apiece. That makes
>360-480 common techniques(overall, remember) and around 100 individual
>moves that no one else has. If you don't believe me go count em up
>in the FAQ of the respective games.
>
>Big Cat was exagerating(you were... BC?)
he was not. with ten characters VF has about as many moves as your
estimate for the 23 characters in TK2.
Brady Prigge
>I think main flaw of Tekken 2 can be summed up in one word: constraint.
>Tekken 2 often times forces you into its predefined sequence. Take
>for example running. When you run towards someone in Tekken 2, you are
>locked into Tekken 2 running options, ie. tackle, slide, stop. In VF2,
>running towards your opponent does not limit your options in any way.
>You still have your full range of of moves and throws.
Your statement is incorrect.
While running in Tekken2 you can instantly stop, and when you do this you
have your full range of attacks and throws. Therefore, in Tekken2 you
always have your full range of moves IN ADDITION TO the extra moves you
gain from running.
This amounts to new strategies as the average player will usually run at
someone far away from them, expecting to tackle, slide or ram them. The
player being run at will usually respond(if they are half good anyway)
with an attack for a major counter. Now with this running system, good
players have made new strategies in this area. The player will run at his
opponent and when his opponent tries to get off the attack, he will
simply stop and reverse it.
With 10 hits,
>you are limited by two options, do or do not. Either you do the sequence
>or you don't.
Inncorrect again. The 10 strings while being inneffective against good
Tekken players, do have strategic importance. One technique is to fake
your opponent out with the start of a 10 string, and the stop doing it on
a move that has good recovery time. This often gives you a chance to
throw.
With guard canceling in VF2, you have the option either
>to continue with the precanned combo or switch to a regular attack.
>With Tekken 2 multi-throws, if you mess up the motion of your multi-throw
>the sequence stops and the initiator just moves away. While VF2 one has
>one multi-throw, the SPoD, if Akira messes up the first part of the SPoD,
>can try to reverse, block, run away, attack, throw, etc. Likewise, the
>victim can try to reverse, block, run away, attack, throw, etc. If
>Akira messes up the second part of the SPoD, a whole new world of turn
>around attacks is opened. VF2 does not force you to only perform certain
>actions.
>
Your are comparing to completely different things. Akira's "multi" is a
SET of throws. Tekken2 chain-throws are ONE throw. It just happens that
they can be broken or incomplete.
>Another level of complexity of VF2 is that attacks affect different
>opponents differently. Lau's sidekick has different effects depending
>whether his opponent is Pai, Akira, or Jeffry. Certain combos and moves
>affect certain opponents and not others. Thus not only must you
>know yourself but also your opponent.
>
Same as in Tekken2. Devil cannot Laser Wang whlie standing, but it hits
everyone else. Reversals act differently on haracters due to their
different set of attacks.
>This, combined with other Tekken 2 flaws like auto-block and sparklies,
>clear shows VF2 game mechanics as "more complex" in the very least.
>However Tekken 2 gameplay is still pretty good and it's fun to play.
>The only thing I'm saying is VF2 game mechanics takes more thought
>and insight. While I personally prefer those types of games, your
>mileage may vary.
I fail to see how sparklies affect game play. Auto block does not really
affect gameplay in any way.
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Jirawat Uttayaya a.k.a. Peaking Duck
>
CreeD
>This stuff is me writing...
>
>>> While
>>>on the ground I can roll to the side OR the invaluable getting up
>>>quickly. The only thing VF has that TK2 doesn't from your list is
>>>Ring Outs and foot stances, which I might add doesn't matter THAT
>>>much in the course of a standard VF game.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>you MUST have forgotten to erase this.
>
>The average VF2 match lasts only 15 sec, and I would imagine that
>99.99999999% of everyone who has ever played the game did what they
>did in total disreguard for stances.
>
You would imagine wrong I imagine. I don't know for sure because I
don't know 99.99999999% of everyone who has played VF. I DO know that
almost every RGVA VF2 poster has at least a rudimentary understanding
of its importance.. but anyway, the point is, just because it's hard
to understand how useful and important it is, and just because all the
scrubs and at least ninety percent of the intermediates fail to pay
attention to this important detail, does NOT mean therefore that it's
inflated in importance and meaningless. I don't even thing your 99.9
percent figure is even close. . I don't know what kind of level people
in japan <Where it's biggest> are playing at, but from some of the
posts I've read, I suspect a LOT use foot stance in their everyday
battles as important tactics.
>>right there. You killed your argument to the veteran VFers on here.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>If this post was for trying to convince veteran VFers, then I would
>have given it up long ago, I am posting this for ALL to read.
true/
>"doesn't matter that much in the course of a standard VF game." was
>refering ONLY to stances, not RO. Ring Outs are an critical strategy,
>but I would wager that most veterans haven't been ROed in a long time.
"I imagine" .."I wager" ... at least PRETEND to know a little more
than you do .... you would wager wrong. In the most recent large
tournament the champion RO'ed very good players, and even great
players succumb to Lau's Rush <TM> and get RO'd right away. It's a
threat and a big one. Not even the best VFers are immune to it.
>
>Last time I ROed must have been several weeks ago when I catapult kicked
>a Computer Shun and went over him and as I got up he drilled me. very
>embarassing. Got him good in 3rd round....
>
aaaaha. The last time I got RO'd was today and I did it to myself, I
was running back from Shun so I could practice my run in and SPoD ...
and ran out. D'oH.
>>The stuff he mentioned is ALL important but the ring outs and stances
>>are damned important, with any character but ESPECIALLY some. For
>>example Lau can upkn rush you right out of the ring and the
>>"unimportant" RO suddenly becomes foremost in your head. You might be
>>blocking everything he's tossing at you but you're still gojng to do.
>>RO is a CONSTANT threat against a GOOD kage.
>
>Yes I know RO's are important. I even pay attention to stances when
>i'm trying to get closer so I can Ten Foot Toss someone.
>BUT THE AVERAGE PLAYER doesn't.
True, good point. If people were as big on VF as they were on say,
SF, though, . .. I'm speaking of some magical hypothetical world ...
I'd like to think the average player would in this situation.
>I didn't until last summer when I got serious with the game....
>
>>And stance is incredibly important too. Just by closing your stance
>>with any character you're making it harder to be grabbed, which is
>>naturally a big part of gameplay in itself, .. but then with some
>>characters it goes beyond even that.. like changing your stance to
>>that that pesky UPKN rush of lau's WHIFFS and won't RO you.
>>It's pretty clear you're not talking master level, but you provided an
>>opportunity to help the VFers case by letting us go into specifics of
>>why everything is useful. Whereas I see the argument about 3,3,3 ,
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Not to 99% of players it ain't....
it's useful to everyone. 99.9 may not have the information or the
nerve to take the time to learn and implement it, but that's them.
It's still really useful to those who know about it though.
Unfortunately, you don't see american gaming magazines cover stuff
like this with the depth it ought to be covered in.... without the
internet I wouldn't know about most of this stuff. Too bad we don't
have an american equivalent to Gamest..
>>1,3,2,whatever , 3,4,1 whatever ... all being different combination
>>moves and it just adds to my point that having more attacks doesn't
>
>What I'm saying is that with Baek, each kick is like a lego, and you
>can build upon combos to get different ones. (sounds like a typical
>VF argument, eh? with the legos I mean.)
actually yeah, someone used that same analogy like a week ago I think.
But is it really important to like, use one specific kick or punch in
the place of another in tekken2? I'm genuinely curious here.. or is
it like a lot of each character's attacks are interchangeable with
others and so it boils down to whichever is more effective?
I ask this because I have to really think to come up with attacks in
VF that are >not< useful, from the dinkiest low kicks to the really
painfully slow and obvious moves like jeff's butt bomb.
>
>>mean shit in terms of depth, etc. KI certainly has a lot of moves,
>>wow, six attack buttons instead of two or four, wow, about fifty
>>different combos PER CHARACTER.. . but again, having those moves and
>>combos doesn't mean there's any depth. Nuff said there.
>
>GOD I HATE IT when VFers call Tekken2 "Killer Instict with throws"
I don't, I didn't. I was using KI to make a point.
>I think I'll call Virtua Fighter 2 "Virtua Fighter 1 with better
>overall.... stuff" that'll teach ya!!! er... maybe not....
If I'd known you were touchy about it I'd have used another
example... this is just going back to the question that I asked
before.. are 99 percent of the moves useful iin tekken two? Or is the
actual figure only something like 80 percent could really be called
"useful" even under really specific circumstances?
>>>
>>>Answer me this though, what exactly do you mean by 'modified
>>>moves'?
>>>
>> There are at least three different ways of "modifying" certain moves
>>in VF2 to make them more effective, quicker or easier or faster or
>>longer ranged... one method makes it so that by buffering a crouched
>>move into a crouch dash, you get your character to do a move but he
>>does it at the end of the crouch dash adding range to it. this is
>>huge, ... surprise exchange with akira can automatically be followed
>>up with a single palm for a piddly amount of damage, maybe twelve
>
>AHHHHH!!!! its the infamous VFer syndrome where you call basic moves
>strung together TOTALLY NEW GAMEPLAY!!
nonononononononoo .... ack. Not all of these are like that. I mean,
technically the crouch dash into single palm is just two strung moves,
I guess it's just such a big deal to VFers because something like the
crouch dashes were not even widely known before people discovered this
tactic, much less used. So although the potential to do these moves
was always there, it was JUST discovered recently how useful it was.
In any case, the c-single palm is not necessarily just a coruch dash,
then a palm, it's done different ways and isn't just the strict
d/f,d,D/F motion for a crouch dash then f+P for the palm ... although
I think that works people have come up with different methods to do
it, and it's tricky to pull off so in that sense it seems like a new
move, as compared to just the palm attack which is easy and old.. .
anyway. There's a lot of stuff that can also be done that looks old
but seems new. For example, akira's rush forward double palm strike
is D,b,f+P .. you have to "charge" the down joystick motion to make
the b,f+P come out as a double palm attack. .. you have to wait for
akira to come to a full crouch. But people discovered you could pull
off a surprise "double palm out of nowhere" by guard cancelling a low
kick then going into the double palm motion...this works because while
crouching by itself is sorta slow, and takes like 15 frames of
animation, a low kick is almost instantaneous in execution and comes
out in like five. Since you G-cancelled the low kick, akira takes
five frames to go into the crouch, a few more to cancel the kick, and
is now crouched in less than ten frames so that he can pull off a
double palm. The thing is, he doesn't LOOK crouched due to the way
the low kick looks.. like a toe kick. The result is the double palm
that does not have to be done from a crouched position and becomes a
lot more useful, in that a. it surprises someone becausue akira was
not crouching when he did it and b. can be done almost instantly and
tacked onto the end of combos for like 15 percent or so more damage.
So the "old" double palm motion goes from D,b,f+P to
d+K,quick G-cancel,b,f+P .. it really almost seems like a new move
when done this way and suddenly gains a lot of usefulness. And it
took VF players a looong time to come up with stuff like this to add
new dimensions to individual moves and characters.. that's prolly
where we get all this "VF is sooooo deep" attitude from. . it just
keeps coming up with new tidbits to surprise us and keep the gameplay
fresh. Who knows, maybe in two years TK2 will be producing stuff like
this.
>Well guess what! Anna has
>this move where she runs forward and throws you! BRAND SPANKING NEW
>GAMEF*CKING PLAY EVERYONE!!!! "you get the character to do a move but
>she does it at the end of the dash adding RANGE to it!" <- I copied
>your quote adding she instead of he.
>
you don't need to be THAT sarcastic. I didn't say there were new
MOVES I said new techniques... aka strategies. If nobody had ever
tried pulling off a run in and throw and suddenly years later anna
came up and did it, it would seem like a really new technique if it
turned out anna could for some reason do it really effectively and
nobody had seen it before, it would be a little more impressive to
someone... anyway. why did I even bother with that throw example? ..
>Ok, calmed down. Why do VFers think that crouch dashing is the greatest
>thing on the Earth. It is used in every example they give at least 5
>times.
>
>
Well, it's one of those things that people didn't know about and were
not using up to like a month or so ago, and suddenly out of nowhere we
all see these new techniques/strategies being used with it and it
turns out they're really, really effective. I won't bore you with
ANOTHER long example, you've probably read a lot. . . but say you got
really really good at VF2 without ever dashing. You had no idea that
you could dash, or you know f,f would cause your character to dash,
but you never used it. Now, imagine that someone came up and taught
you how to dash, showed you a few useful things like running in after
whiffed sidekicks and throwing, or running from opponents quickly to
put space between you. . .
I would say the jump from using walking only to incorporating dashing
is as big as the jump from "only" using walking and crouch dashing to
moving constantly in a crouch dash .. .it's VERY useful it seems to
use the "taiwan step", which is crouch dashing all over the place but
G-cancelling the dashes to control them perfectly. This lets you move
around quickly yet avoid all high attacks and throws <except the
wrestler's low throws>. To use another simpler example: without
crouch dashes, a good lau can get like a six or seven hit floar combo.
With crouch dashed a good lau can get like a 14 hit combo. But, it's
not as easy to do as you'd think..
>>percent. But if you "modify" the palm you can get it to come out
>>RIGHT behind your opponent and connect harder, making the louder hit
>>noise and opening up the possibility for a 25% to 50% hit depending on
>>what your opponent tries to do ... all by tacking on that crouch dash.
>>In addition you can modify ducking moves so that they come out almost
>>instantly, or at least faster, so that lau can combo many m- lifting
>>palm moves in a row, increasing his deadliness twenty times. Everyone
>>gets into the act with modified moves. Akira can do his double palm
>>without charging, characters can do ducking attacks faster, wold and
>>jeff can zip into range for some of their best throw moves, .. this
>>all comes from special controlled techniques applied to moves that
>>require crouching first or a d, d/f motion.
>>
>>
>The "I can do a * without * " argument holds no water. King can do
>a jumpkick without running, its in his arsenal just like Akira's
>double palm without dashing. Crouch Dashing is not the know all
>end all of martial arts. Nor is it a deciding factor in Fighting
>games.
It IS in VF, really, I swear the difference between an akira who can
utilize crouch dashes really well, as well as a lau, when compared to
an akira or lau who cannot, is HUGE. The ones who have mastered
crouch dashing can seriously destroy opposition in ways they'd never
expect. Without crouch dashing Akira can not get such monster damage
after a surprise exchange, first of all because just regular dashing,
then doing it won't work, regular dashes don't go as far and you're
vulnerable to any high or midlevel turnaround attack. Secondly crouch
dashes are, obviously, from a crouched position, and so moves like the
single palm and double palm, which both usually require akira to be in
a crouch first, only work after a crouch dash and not a regular one.
>is Its simply doing a different movement in place of another.
>The crouch dash takes the place of the normal dash, thats why Jeff
>and Wolf can get into range,
nah man, wolf and jeff can sneak in under their opponents jabs while
crouch dashed, and because crouch dashes have longer range than
regular ones, they can quickly slide up and throw from further away
than they could with a normal dash. That's why people get surprised
when someone crouch dashes up to them and XPD's them.. it looks as if
jeff grabbed them from a few steps away, and if the like to throw out
jabs all day to keep throwers at bay, you can crouch dash under those
attacks to snag them.
>why Lau can do lifting punches why
>Akira can do a palm without charging. Actually Akira technically
>DOES dash, he just does it as a crouch dash.
nah, when you tap forward, forward + P with akira, even while holding
guard, he sits still, then when you hit punch he lunges forward with
his dashing elbow. It's a special move, not a dash and then an elbow,
.. same with the palm. d,f punch is a special lunging palm where the
player does not control or initiate the dash akira does.. it's like
balrog's dashing uppercut in SF, he doesn't just run then uppercut,
although that's pretty much what the animation amounts to. When akira
does a crouch dash single palm, it's like he slides a short distance
along the ground then stands, slides an additional distance along the
ground with his palm extended.
>Its like in TK2 where
>Nina has four different ways to pull off a double palm thrust. She
>can do one or two punches and go into it,(1,2,f+1+2) can dash into
>it (f,f+1+2) can do it without dashing(HCF,1+2) or do it after a run
>(while running f,f+1+2)
>
what you've just described is more like akira's specialty double
palms. He can double palm after a SE, or double palm after a
stumbling trip, or after a break stance or guard break or at the end
of his infamous stun palm o' doom.. . the motions for these kinda vary
but I don't count them as separate moves or anything.. although the
animation for them changes very slightly, for all the throw then
double palm moves the double palm is done with a quarter circle back,
f+P and doesn't need charging. But it only works like that after
certain throw moves.
>>>As stated above, things like tackling give each character a larger
>>>base of standard moves, which in turn results in more options.
>>
>>that's the most logical thing I've heard out of you or anyone in favor
>>of TK2 yet. I am inclined to actually believe it <GASP!>
>>
>Its the truth, so believe it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to tackle someone in
>VF2 and then smack them when they are on the ground.
well, yeah, but that's a standard move for TK2 that isn't in VF2.
It's like saying it's impossible to fireball someone in VF2. True,
but that's from a differenr game and is just another move and is not
something VF2 NEEDS. However, I'll concede that it's there in TK2 and
not in VF2 and therefore it is another option a player has. As to
it's usefulness in gameplay, I dunno. I DO know that every time
someone tackles someone in TK2 when I watch, they knock them to the
ground then get up off the ghuy because I assume the guy did some kind
of excape motion. So it's kinda rendered useless except for the
psychological value of knocking a guy's ass on the ground.
>Even as a special
>move. That limits the characters....
>....
>
hold on, yeah it is, I mean, if you GET someone on the ground in the
first place you can hit them while they're down and not just with a
pounce attack, akira and pai both do ground punches, other characters
stomp on or soccer kick or can drop their body on an opponent as a
sort of lighter hit on downed opponents. Only lion and shun can't
strike someone who is down without pouncing on them. I dunno why the
designers opted to give them a move like this, but I guess maybe
because so much of their stuff causes short knockdowns.
I guess I could concede this, I think it's a style thing. I think
our arcade's machine is pretty smooth, I just love some of the motion
captured animation on VF because it's so smooth and fluid, and stuff
like the SPoD just looks really really nice. Even basic throws look
really nice. I love pai's wrist twist. But I do have to say that TK2
has SOME good stuff going for it, especially in the throws dept. .. I
just think that some of the tekken stuff, the way the moves flow seems
unnatural to me, . .. it's smooth yes, but it's also kind of weirdly
jerky. I'n thinking here of the ten hit strings and the attacks on
fallen opponents, . . it seems to alternate really strangely between
quick attacks and these kind of slow floater moves and strings.
On the other hand I do like many of the backgrounds and I like the
spotlight effects on some character's stages.
>>
>>>If only we had a game that had VF2 graphics and Tekken Motion and
>>>the best features of each! uh, SOUL EDGE!!! Heh heh.
>>>(actually I haven't played it yet, but I've heard rumors....)
>>
>> I have too, but I dunno about it. I'll put my bets on VF3 instead.
>>
>Soul Edge is comming out this month, VF3 isn't comming out till the
>end of this year.
Where'd you read about VF3? I thought I heard three months. although
that is a wait.
>That sucks because VF3 is supposed to be awesome.
>Stuff like 1000 polygons in the face sounds awesome but thanks to
>Sega and AM2 they are not going near it, hopeing to rake in more
>money from VF2 and Fighting Vipers(which I think is a nice little
>fighting game) Hell, if they wait for VF2 to die down in Japan
>we're looking at 2012.....
>>
good point. there's a lot of cash yet to be raked from VF2 there,
it's amazing how popular it is there. VF2 SOFTDRINKS?@!?@!
.... well in any case I'm sure I'll be giving soul edge a few tries..
Peter N Ivanov
|> In article <177209BB1S...@uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu>,
|> }>> moves. I'd be willing to say that many of the characters in TK2 have
|> }>> almost half as many moves as VF2 has IN TOTAL. *ack*
|> }>
|> }>VF2 offers 1,200 executable moves. Which character(s) in TK2 offer close
|> }>to 600?
|> }
|> }***ROTFL*** 1,200 moves!!! no.
|> }
|> }Breaking it down I would say each VF character has about 15-20 techniques
|> }overall there are around 100-120 moves (everyone combined).
|>
|> Well, from a quick scan of the FAQs for VF2, it appears that most characters
|> have between 60 and 70 different moves. (Note that, for example, I am
|> counting PPP as different from P for Shun but not for Kage, as you don't
|> really get anything new and exciting from Kage but Shun actually does
|> different punches.) I'm not sure where the 1,200 comes in either,
|> especially stated as it is as a basic fact--perhaps it does include the
|> c-SPOD (or even the SPOD) as separate techniques. I don't count either of
|> those, as they're made up of moves that have been counted already.
|>
|> Again, I am counting moves that are _visually_ different, not executed
|> differently.
|>
|> The above total does not count running, crouch dashing, or jumping as moves,
|> either. Does Tekken have different jump heights or float times based on
|> weight?
|>
|> - Mike
Ok, I'm a Kage player, and I will try to list the moves I know.
Long jumps - Kick at take of
Simple kick at landing
Simple kick in the air
Hammer at landing
Drop kick at landing forward
Drop kick at landing backward (vastly different)
Bullshit roll in the air
Bullshit Kickflip
Short jump - Hop and kick at once
- Kick at landing
- Sweep at landing
- Elbow from above
- Expended punch at landing
- Handstand kickflip
Turn your back moves - Sweep
- Kick
- Back chop
- Upward chop
Turn around moves - Sweep
- Kick
- High punch
- Double low punch
- Flip and attack with knees
(the rest look similar to the listed)
Hand Techniques - Straight punch
(the whole pletoria of modified punches is lost)
- Dodging punch
- Low punch
- Six completely different chop/sword hand techniques
- Elbow
Foot Techniques - Mavashi gery (high)
- Yoko gery (middle)
- Yoko gery (high) in a two punches combo
- Ushiro yoko gery (middle) in a three punches combo
- Ushiro yoko gery (high)
- Walk forward then ushiro mavashi gery (high)
- Axe kick
- Blocking heel near the ground
- Knee
- Tackle
Attacks from the ground - Rising kick
- Rising sweep
- Smashing heel roll
- Rising kickflip
Flying Kicks - Handstand into catapult
- Rotating drop kick
Attacks from rolling - Sweep
- Low kick
(techniques done from a back/forward roll look similar)
Others - High hand attack reversal
- Shoulder throw
- Sword throw
- Reaping throw
- Toss throw
- Suplex
Stomps - Three completely different ones
I wonder whether walking, running, dashing, crawling, crouch dashing, backflips,
rolls, cartweels, and other moves of locomotion count. I would say they do,
because I certainly miss the total control over my character movements in
Tekken 2.
Of these moves, I cannot do the long jumps (guess why), the stomps (same reason),
the sword throw, and I badly mess up the sweep from a roll, tackle, and flying
kicks. I have never dared to try the punch reversal, although I have had friends
willing to give it a go. A backflip I can do, with or without handstand, but
if I hit something I'll break my neck.
Anyway... this leaves 43 totally real, totally distinct moves, 60 totally
distinct ones. This is without counting similar moves, ways to get up, and
without counting the ways to move around. If you count the ways to move around,
only one move for both directions, you get 71.
Now, can somebody on this group give me a similar break down for a Tekken
character. Chose one you know well, and list how many of the moves are
100% realistic... I will definitely enjoy reading it.
BTW - I know of eight ways of making Bruce do an uppercut. There are
four of them which are different enough to be listed separately, and only
three which are realistic (sorta) because the dragon punch is bullshit.
(note that I am not considering the effects the moves have... for some reason,
my knee fails to lift the opponent like Kage's does)
Please when you do list them, avoid listing all eight uppercuts.
Peter
Kevin Pak
> ... Okay. My two cents are:
>1.Tekken2 DOES actually have strategy.
>2. It's less than VF2's level.
>
> .. flame me or whatever, that's cool, I enjoy these discussions.
>Really.
No flame just a comment. True VF2 has more of it but not by much. I
mean some of you exaggerate the difference a little too much. VF2 was made
to be a "deep" game, TK2 a easier and funner one.
Kevin
Peter N Ivanov
|> jc...@wumpus.cc.uow.edu.au (Ansell Christopher James) wrote:
|>
|> >I am getting sick of hearing VF2 'purists' whinge about tekken 1+2
|> >lack of gameplay tactics. What total BULLSHIT!
[snip]
|>
|> ... Okay. My two cents are:
|> 1.Tekken2 DOES actually have strategy.
|> 2. It's less than VF2's level.
|>
|> .. flame me or whatever, that's cool, I enjoy these discussions.
|> Really.
|>
|>
I do agree with 1. I am giving Tekken 2 a try, and playing with Bruce
defintely requires a good positioning, moving around, and fainting.
Too bad that moving around is completely inferior to VF2's control over
your character, and furthermore influenced by blocking. Fainting is
rather hard, because you cannot withdraw hits, and fainting a run or
a step seems to be impossible (can't stop on a dime, at least)
As about 2, I do not know yet. I still have troubles in blocking combos,
although I am getting quite good at interupting them, or stopping them
before they unleash. Maybe at some point I will worry about real strategy,
but for this, my opponents will have to get better - the only styles we
get at MIT are
1. Long, long, LONG combos, and tag on damage - Jun, Baek
2. Lotsa quick combos which vary low/middle attacks - Law, Michelle
3. Multy breaks, and multy purpose moves (jump/ankle lock) - Nina
4. Button maching - about everyone
5. Laser+axe-kick happy angels/demons
6. Drunk boxing from the ground. (don't I wish I had Kage's axe kick)
I have yet to see anyone but me worry about distance, interrupting,
and even defense. For now the rule seems to be - the first to attack
wins, and if he does not, retaliation does not hurt too much with most
characters. I bet this is untrue for good players, but i am not one.
Peter
Peter N Ivanov
|> On Jan 29, 1996 06:40:11 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
|> VF2>, 'do...@umd.umich.edu (Douglas William Cole)' wrote:
|>
|>
|> >TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
|> >Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
|>
|> Many people feel that Lau and Shun are way too powerful compared to the
HUH!??! Shun too powerful? And where did you hear this?
|> other characters. I don't know whether this is the case or not but the fact
|> that some people THINK so does not make it so. I find that when I play TK2
|> in versus mode (most of the time) I select different characters depending
|> on who my opponent is using and how I have seen them use that character in
|> the past. At some point or another I have used all the characters, I don't
|> think I (many other experts are also as flexible) would do this if there
|> were a substantial difference in the strengths of the characters, or the
|> ability of the characters to get results. When I play TK2 I am confident
|> that I can pick any character and win a fight, this seems to me to speak of
|> good balance. I notice however that VF2 players tend to stick religiously
|> to one character...
A few reasons for this - In VF2 you cannot change your character between fights.
- I personally consider cheap to adjust your chacater
depending on what the opponent selected.
- I plays characters whose style I like - I stuck with
Kage in VF1 (he was weaker, then), and I stick with Kage
now, although I have noticed that I win more with
Jeffrey and Jacky against the only person who gives me
moderate trouble (you can tell I stopped stepping on
Joji's turf ;-)
And... Lion is a geek, Pai is too skinny, Wolf looks dumb, Lau is
boring (for me), Sarah I stopped playing on a dare, Akira
grunts like a ... grunt, and the rest of them I play.
In a well balanced game, you can afford a character... none of the 'If you
are facing a big guy, pick up Wang, cause he is ducking under their attacks',
or 'you took Ken out, now I will play Sodom'
Not necessarily true, but done a lot around here.
Peter
Kevin Pak
[part of post snipped]
> Tekken2 is Killer Instinct with throws. Sorry if that was vicious
>backhanded slap, but if you think about it the prime discussion centers
>around combo memorization/timing and how and where to break combos.
>Once everyone gets all of that down pat, the game will become more like
>VF2: lots of running around and safe pecking attacks mixed with throw
>attempts. The only problem is that in VF2 the little attacks can be
>used to set up larger combos, while in Tekken (short of a float) you
>have to start with the preprogramed combo, and do it in a strict timing
>sequence. So instead of strategically setup combos, you're going to get
>alot of guess-comboing, as in "i guess this might hit". Fortunately
>for Tek fans, there's alot more sequences to learn than in VF2, so enjoy
>it while you can.
People who've not played TK2 long enough will undoubtebly say that
combo memorization is all there is to the game (no flame intended). You
forget one thing if your opponent is an experienced one he can get out and
counter all your combos and strings. Let me ask you one thing.....you
guys HONESTLY think SPoD is not pre programmed? If thats what you think
end of discussion. What do you call pre programmed? Just because SPoD uses
moves that you can normally get by themselves doesn't make it any less pre
programmed. You cannot do anything once someone has connected that first
P+K+G, whereas in TK you can at least in some cases try to counter them.
I know I'll get many replies about this but I defy anyone to tell me SPoD
wasn't pre programmed as a special thing. I haven't played VF2 as much as
most of you (can barely get 2/3 SPoD) but it doesn't take a master to know
that SPoD is a pre programmed combo (unlike other VF2 combos like those
that chain up with Kage's TFT (TFToD?)). What do you call strategically
set up combos? In TK2 I can make two jabs then follow it with a Death Fist
(Paul) it is not a pre programmed move just three seperate ones. I have to
remind you, VF2 is very "deep" I agree but so is TK2 (in a lesser way) all
you have to do is play it more and you'll see. The problem is most VF2
players take up TK2 play a little and discard it before they've even
bothered learning some more, saying that the game sucks and that it is
nothing compared to VF2. Hmmm sounds familiar...VF sucks its too hard
to learn, its boring lets play SF instead.....then what happened? Hey
there are so many moves here for us to *discover*, it is hard but for a
*reason*. People tend to forget their past fairly quickly.
Now about the graphics. No denying here, VF2 is definetly better
than TK2 in this department. But like I said there is a *reason* for this
VF2 uses Sega's best game board at the time whereas Namco only uses their
system 11 board so that all the arcade games can be ported hassle free to
the PSX (I think it is stupid of them but then again $$$ counts more than
what we think).
BTW SEGA uses the same board they use in VF2 for almost all their
games. It shows, VC1-2, Virtua Soccer, they all look as if they use VF2
character for everything from big bosses to goalies. You say its weird
playing as a Lion or as a Lizard, try playing VC and shooting gang members
who you're sure you've seen somewhere before ;). TK2 may have weird
looking characters but at least there is variety, VF2 looks as if they've
used the same mold for almost everybody.
Kevin
>
>-Lark
>who would ignore all of Tekken's problems if the characters weren't so ugly
CreeD
>On Feb 02, 1996 13:41:47 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
>VF2>, 'Cr...@ucla.edu (CreeD)' wrote:
>
>
>>Secondly crouch
>>dashes are, obviously, from a crouched position, and so moves like the
>>single palm and double palm, which both usually require akira to be in
>>a crouch first, only work after a crouch dash and not a regular one.
>
>Heihachi, Nina, Anna, Kazuya, Wang and a few other characters can all
>"crouch dash" except us Tekkenites call it "hovering". Of course they all
>have attacks that can be launched only from that position or it can simply
>be used to get close to an opponent by moving underneath high attacks. It
>ain't such a big deal and it certainly ain't unique to VF2.
>
>Hey! Can you hear that dull thud sound in the distance?
>(Its a dead horse being flogged.)
>Anyway, I'm moving tonight so I will lose net-access for a while (Sob,
>whimper). I know I can trust y'all to keep the flames burning until I'm
>back on-line.
>______
>Satsujinki.
Oh, we'll work on it. I think there's so much of this horse left to
beat into a pulp..
Donny Chan
AD>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade
AD>Subject: Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than VF2
AD>Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 11:04:15 CST
AD>Organization: University of Alabama at Birmingham
>> moves. I'd be willing to say that many of the characters in TK2 have
>> almost half as many moves as VF2 has IN TOTAL. *ack*
>
>VF2 offers 1,200 executable moves. Which character(s) in TK2 offer close
>to 600?
AD>***ROTFL*** 1,200 moves!!! no.
AD>Breaking it down I would say each VF character has about 15-20 techniques
AD>which of course as the VFer community will be quick to point out
[Munch]
AD>that TK2 has around 350-500 techniques, because every character has
AD>at least 2-4 moves that noone else has (23 characters = 100 moves)
AD>plus the 12 originals have around 30-40 moves apiece. That makes
AD>360-480 common techniques(overall, remember) and around 100 individual
AD>moves that no one else has. If you don't believe me go count em up
AD>in the FAQ of the respective games.
Back in VF1, Jerky and Sarah had the highest number of official
techniques: 46. I don't count Dural because she's not a player
character in the arcade VF1. VF2 has two more characters, and
the original characters have more techniques than in VF1. I
suppose Chia knows how many techniques are in VF2.
Don Chan (Pai-chan/others)
---
* DeLuxe2 1.21 #6922 * "Athena ikkimaaaaasu!" - Athena Asamiya, KOF94-95
CreeD
>Cr...@ucla.edu (CreeD) wrote:
>> ... Okay. My two cents are:
>>1.Tekken2 DOES actually have strategy.
>>2. It's less than VF2's level.
>>
>> .. flame me or whatever, that's cool, I enjoy these discussions.
>>Really.
> No flame just a comment. True VF2 has more of it but not by much. I
>mean some of you exaggerate the difference a little too much. VF2 was made
>to be a "deep" game, TK2 a easier and funner one.
>Kevin
I'd almost agree but I have not played TK2 enough to know if it's any
more fun. .. I have a lot of fun <or SOMEthing entertaining> when I
play VF2. I also don't know about the level of depth being just a
little over TK2's or what, but I am pretty well convinced VF is still
deeper in terms of gameplay. I just do not know by how much, a lot or
a little. The thing is, on my most recent excursion to the arcade I
promised I would actually try to play and get into TK2 despite knowing
nothing, but I didn't. For some reason. Hrm.
anyway..
Kevin Pak
>VF2 is a game that allows for deeper stratagy than any other game out
>there. It has the tightest mechanics of any game out there and it is the
>most balanced, most fair and the hardest to be cheap in.
I have to agree that VF2 is THE most in depth fighter game out there
at the moment. But most balanced and fair? I doubt it. From what I hear
all the BEST players are Akira's and I mean the best. You think Lion or
Shun really has a chance against Akira and Kage? No..so the game isn't
balanced. I'm not saying thats a bad thing since I doubt there will ever
be a fighter in which ALL the characters are balanced but it shouldn't be
something used to put VF2 above all else because even VF2 is not perfect.
I can't imagine how you guys can actually think VF2 is balanced.
> All I can say is play the game you enjoy the most. If you like
>stratagy, play VF2. If you like glitz, play Tekken2.
How about if you like strategy play VF2. If you like Strategy AND
Glitz play TK2. TK does have strategy you know maybe not as much as VF but
it has.
Kevin
Kevin Pak
>Search me. I posted an innocent article asking for pointers on starting to
>play Tekken. It spawned three different VF/TK flame threads, degenerated
>itself into one, but got me only two emails, one giving me WWW links to Faqs,
>and another including two articles on strategy (unfortunately they were of
>the 'Do Foo alot, if they block it, they're too good' variety.)
First of all lets get something straight you article wasn't as
*innocent* as you say it was. It involved something on the lines of VF2 is
the best but I think I'll give that stupid game (TK) a try just to see how
much better VF2 is. Ok so maybe I exaggerated a little but that was the
impression some of us got. Anyways I still disregarded the intent and sent
you a location of a faq. Now I'm sorry if you don't have WWW access but
maybe you should've put that in your msg. Secondly the reason I gave you a
WWW link and not a faq is because the faq is not completed yet. There are
things missing but most of what is missing is way out of a beginners
leaque, I think you should learn the basics first before you try the
harder stuff and I think a faq is the first thing a new player needs
don't you? Anyways if you still need help go ahead and ask and I'll try my
best to give you the info you need.
Kevin
Bluebear
400 line posts? Give it a rest, people!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Cushman O_ _O Freshman Engineer Wanna-be
Cornell University ( ^ ) And Resident Mental Case
^
"When your head's in the clouds, you can't see what you're stepping in..."
"He who laughs last... gets beaten severely..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Pak
>On Jan 29, 1996 06:40:11 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
>VF2>, 'do...@umd.umich.edu (Douglas William Cole)' wrote:
>
>
>>TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
>>Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
>>just plain HORRIBLE.
>
>Many people feel that Lau and Shun are way too powerful compared to the
>that some people THINK so does not make it so. I find that when I play TK2
>in versus mode (most of the time) I select different characters depending
>on who my opponent is using and how I have seen them use that character in
>the past. At some point or another I have used all the characters, I don't
>think I (many other experts are also as flexible) would do this if there
>were a substantial difference in the strengths of the characters, or the
>ability of the characters to get results. When I play TK2 I am confident
>that I can pick any character and win a fight, this seems to me to speak of
>good balance. I notice however that VF2 players tend to stick religiously
>to one character...
Hey good point. Here's what I think. In VF2 people tend to specialize on
one character. Why? Because like they say there is so much to learn that
you couldn't possibly learn more than one or two of them well. The problem
is some characters in VF2 are clearly better than others so more people
will choose those characters and stick with them. Akira is the first to
spring to mind. In TK2 the characters are not balanced either. I don't
think that a fighting game will ever have a completely balanced line up.
The difference is TK2 characters match up very well. All good TK players
have learned to use at least a couple of characters. Novices will all
choose ones of the same type (Law and Baek for example) but experienced
players will choose those that complement each other. I personnally use
Paul as a general character, Yoshimitsu for fun and suprise, King for his
deadly multies and combos and the list goes on. I think I'm not the only
one who uses more than 2 characters. Also apart from complementing each
other some characters fight better against others. When my friend uses
Nina I'm not going to send my Baek againt him, it'll be suicide. Against
Law players I could send my Baek in for a close game or I could use Paul
and get a slight edge. TK2 has one thing that VF2 will never have the
freedom of choice. There is actually a strategy involved in the simple
process of choosing your fighter.
Kevin
Kevin Pak
Kevin Pak
once I've seen a VFer give a very good judgement on *both* games. There
might've been a few things I didn't agree with but this was really the
first time I've seen a truly serious comparison, something which is quite
lacking on this thread (including a portion of my own posts ;).). Well
anyways I hope that most of us VFers and TKers or those who play both can
start taking this new approach. One game doesn't have to be better than
the other in order for it to be good. Lets try and just accept that both
games have their strong and weak points and aim towards comparing the
games at specific levels instead of a general thing. To me saying that TK2
is better than VF2 doesn't make sense but something like TK2 IMHO has a
more varied line up of fighters does.
Kevin
Kevin Pak
>
>I play TK2 just for the hell of it. I get easy win streaks against local
>guys who I see play the machine everyday and could almost finish the CPU.
>guys, I'm a button masher when I use Baek. Left Kick, Right Kick, Right
>Kick, Left Kick etc..etc.... Not difficult at all I'd say. On the other
>hand VF2 is just not the same.
>
>Also, if you TK2 frantics think TK2 is the best, hold a tourament and
>see if anyone would travel great distances to play this turtling game.
>If it was held in Ottawa, I'll probably join just to laugh at the so
>called "master" when I beat them.
>
>--------------------------------------------
>Sitson Lee
Ok since I don't want to reply thousands of times to the same
typical msges I would just summarize everything in this poat.
Maybe if we really did hold a tournement nobody would come on the other
hand maybe not....this is not a solid argument.
Hmmmm...."I am a button masher I win all the time TK2 sucks"...are you
guys *pre programmed* robots or something?
Okay enough of that, now to the serious part.
I think we can all agree that VF2 is a deep game, much research went into
it and I think the developers deserve to be praised for their hard work
but who doesn't?
From what I've seen in these posts here are the arguments I've collected
concerning the VF2 vs TK2 thing and what I think of them: (BTW I'm a TK2
supporter).
- VF2 is real, TK2 is not. I don't know when I see somebody getting SPoD I
don't go ouch, I go wow how did he do that hyper hard move but when I see
King do his multis I don't think about how the guy did it I tell myself
that has got to hurt. TK2 might not be realistic (with the flashes and
everything) but at least you can feel it and wasn't that supposed to be
the whole point of a game being *real*, so that you feel that you're
there?
- Most used argument: VF2 combos aren't pre programmed like those of TK2.
Hmmmm...if I asked you guys what was the best looking move in VF2 most of
you would say SPoD or something on that line. Now a question..is SPoD pre
programmed? The point is pre programmed combos are just an addition to the
game. They are an *EXTRA* element. A bonus you might say. So what wrong
with that? Is SPoD bad because it is pre programmed? I say its a plus to
the game. I have asked this before and I'll ask it again what do you call
pre programmed? Kage's best non pre programmed combos seems to be after
the TFT, did you know that TK2 has a move that acts a lot like the TFT
its done by Jack-2 and you can chain up a whole list of things after it
just as you would with the TFT. The float combos in VF2 are called air
juggles in TK2. Ok here are some calculations. VF2 has 3 buttons, their
combos although not pre programmed are still based on three buttons. TK2
has 4 buttons the combos are sometimes pre programmed sometimes not but
the pre programmed ones use almost all the combinations possible so which
game has more combos?
- In TK2 when you fall you're dead. Have you played TK2? There are so many
ways to get up just like VF2 except that in VF2 you are guaranteed a
pounce after some moves or combos no matter how you get up whereas in TK2
how and when you get up is very important. A pounce in TK2 doesn't do much
damage in VF2 its over proportionally damaging especially something with
so little trade off.
- VF2 graphics are better than TK2. You got me here. I'm still wondering
why Namco didn't use their system 22 board.
- VF2 has more moves. Totally wrong here. VF2 has crouch dash,throws,
counters and reversals, etc... so has TK2. TK2 has tackle, multi part
throws, unblockables, throw disengaging AND reversing. Some of you say
that the tackle is like a run in throw who are you kidding? The tackle is
a special move that VF2 doesn't have full stop. You can run in and throw
in TK2 but its not a tackle its a throw.
-TK2 characters are all mirrors of each other (referring to the
sub-bosses). Hmmmm this is interesting. In VF2 you have 10 characters. In
TK2 you have 23. In VF2 some of the characters have the same move. Same
thing in TK2. Ok now the differences. From what I've heard all of the VF2
players play differently. In TK2 all the sub bosses are combinations of
normal characters right? But wait take off all the sub bosses, bosses and
special characters and you still have 10 completely different fighters
left. Paul, Law, Heihashi, Nina, Baek, Jun, Lei, Jack-2, King, Yoshimitsu,
just as many as VF2. But wait a closer look at some of the other
characters and what do we find? Bosses that have nothing to do with their
selectable counter parts: Ganryu, Alex, Devil, Kazuya, Kuma, and Bruce.
Whats that 6 more characters than VF2. And the rest Kunimitsu, Anna, Lee,
P-Jack, Armor King, Roger, Wang well ok maybe they have some similarities
but a experienced player will see that most of them have enough
differences to be learned differently (Wang for instance). Now lets check
another aspect of character selection. Hmmmmm pick a character in VF2 with
a different button and you get.....hey a different color. Do that with TK2
and ..... you get an Angel instead of a Devil, a Lizard instead of a
Kangaroo (and I haven't even tried all of them) otherwise you get an
overhaul of the whole outfit not simply a palette swap. Once again the
extra characters are a bonus to us, the different characters and different
outfit lets us narrow down our choices. I know some people who always
chooses the same outfit for their character because they like it better.
When I play VF2 I don't really care what button I press to select in TK2 I
care. Ever seen a Laser battle between two Devils? Now change one of them
to an Angel and you'll see the importance of this small detail. The
characters might be 100% the same but they give you a totally different
impression.
- Lots of discussion about VF2 strategies, lots of discussion about TK2
multies and combos. Well think of it this way, what do you call basic
knowledge in VF2? You have to know at least the basics before you can do
the harder stuff right. Hmmm you talk about croush dashing, Senbon
punches, G cancelling, aren't these the basics? Without them VFers will
not be able to do much of the hyped combos. Well in TK2 get this straight
Multies and pre programmed combos ARE the basics. Ask any serious and
good TK2 player and he'll tell you that against tough competition you will
rarely use the hyped multies and combos they on their own are useless. You
need to set up your opponent before you do them in other words you have to
implement them *into* your fighting style, you can't just stupidly
memorize them and use them any time you want otherwise you'll be dead
before you knew it. TK2 has strategies its just that you guys tend to put
them aside. Where is all the talk about croush dashing? Maybe you forgot
that if TK2 had all these stuff it wouldn't be TK anymore it would be VF.
We don't talk about senbon and the like becaue we don't have them. We have
multi's, reversals, and pre programmed combos thats why we talk about
them. If its going to be this way why don't you just ask us how come we
don't have SPoD or how come we always talk about Law and not Akira?
-Oh yeah I also saw someone mention stance in VF2. If Sega could've payed
so much attention to this small and somewhat *useless* detail how come
they forgot that humans have 4 limbs? Why worry with how you're standing
when you haven't even gotten the basics right.
All this said it is quite easy to see that TK2 is no less a good
game than VF2 (if not better IMHO). And right now I have yet to see a
solid argument that really makes VF2 much better than TK2. Of course I'm
open to any comments and/or flame you guys might have concerning what I've
said.
Kevin
Alan Eisinger
>hen...@u.washington.edu (L. Granquist) wrote:
>
>>VF2 is a game that allows for deeper stratagy than any other game out
>>there. It has the tightest mechanics of any game out there and it is the
>>most balanced, most fair and the hardest to be cheap in.
>
> I have to agree that VF2 is THE most in depth fighter game out there
>at the moment. But most balanced and fair? I doubt it. From what I hear
>all the BEST players are Akira's and I mean the best. You think Lion or
The top 16 at the MoaT used 8 of the 10 characters (Wolf & Lion missing)
>Shun really has a chance against Akira and Kage? No..so the game isn't
Yes, this is what VF2 advocates are claiming. Good players can win regard-
less of their character. Some characters are stronger than others, but
Joe's Shun or BigCat's Lion are perfectly capable of winning against very
good Akiras and Kages.
>balanced. I'm not saying thats a bad thing since I doubt there will ever
>be a fighter in which ALL the characters are balanced but it shouldn't be
>something used to put VF2 above all else because even VF2 is not perfect.
VF2 is not perfect, but it is pretty darn good.
>I can't imagine how you guys can actually think VF2 is balanced.
>
We play it.
gnfnrf
>
Bluebear
>: On Jan 28, 1996 05:15:06 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
>: VF2>, 'jl...@netcom.com (Lark)' wrote:
>:
>:
>: >I either love a character or hate it. Lee and Kazuya are cooler than
>: >anyone in VF2, but King and Alex make me feel like i'm playing some
>: >Nintendo kids game. Nina needs a mask like Kunimitsu's and a malpractice
>
>: >suit against that plastic surgeon she went to between Tek1 and 2.
>: >Tekken does have much better music and a better announcer, no contest
>: >there. In sound effects Tek only has a slight advantage; the bone snaps
>
>: >and grunts are great, but I like VF2's hitting and falling sounds better.
>:
>: Maybe it's just the Saturn version but the "hitting and falling sounds" in
>: VF2 sound to me like someone banging their fist on wood. As far as
>: characters go I am a love 'em or leave 'em type too. Jacky, Wolf and Jeffry
>: really need some work.
>:
>: It is fascinating to me how people try to do the impossible to support VF 2
>: which although it is a good game lacks many of the elements in Tekken 2.
>: e.g.
>: Tekken 2 has floats (aerial combos) and 10-hit combos (with multiple guard
>: points so I don't know why people keep swallowing them whole-Lack of
>: skill), VF 2 has floats therefore VF 2 is more complex. Huh????
>:
>: Tekken 2 has tackle manoeuvers (Inspired, incidentally by UFC and the
>: Gracie Jiujitsu style), VF 2 has ONE move which is
>: kinda-sorta-maybe-if-ya-use-yer-imagination like a tackle. Therefore VF 2
>: offers more varied gameplay. Huh???
>:
>: If your logical reasoning takes the form of the above too patterns then it
>: is possible to defend the idea that VF2 offers more complex gameplay.
>
> I was going to reply an argument to this, but why waste my
>breath? I've played VF2, and I've played Tekken2, and VF2 is just WAY
>better. Sure, that Romero Special is awesome the first couple times you
>do it. And, the reversals are really neat when you do them once or
>twice. But, it gets old... after you've seen the pre-prgrammed combos
>and throws, there's nothing underneith it. There's also almost NO
>recovery time to any of the moves, making it a big button mashing fest.
>
> Well, since you got me started, I'll make a little, teeny
>argument for VF2. :)
>
> Japan has had 2 (and is currently holding a third) VF2
>tournaments, in which hundreds of thousands of people signed up. The
>expert players there have rock-star status. The game has been out a year
>and a half and we're still learning new things about the game engine.
Apparently this once intelligent thread has once again gone the way of "no,
this game is better", "no, THIS game is better," etc. Both games are very good
games, each with high point, and low points, and neither side seems willing to
acknowledge this. This whole thread started with a debate over which game has
more moves!!! Who cares? When I see someone in an arcade use anywhere near 30%
of these "70 moves" per character in either game, I'll be truly surprised.
This whole thread seems like a thinly veiled Sony/Sega debate. Come on!
Wise up, people. Play what you like to play, tell others what you
enjoy about either or both, and make the thread informitive and respectable.
No dumb-ass insults. No "this idea is stupid because...." I'm sure most of us
have spent half of our lives in english classes (excuse of course foreign
audience members) and know how to write intelligently. State your argument if
you must, but defend it. Respond to things you don't agree with without
personal attacks and arrogant tones. Thank god for guys like Kevin Pak,
setsujin, and Psychokick for at least attempting to bring up informed and
insightful responses.
I play Tekken 2 a lot. Why? There is no VF2 here. I enjoyed VF2 for a
while back home, but I am not as big of a martial arts purist as some others
may be. That's really where VF2 shines. The complexity and martial art
accuracy of each character is astounding. Tekken 2 is also a great game, and
while it may not have as many moves or the authentic martial arts feel, the
game is a bit easier to get into, a bit more visually impressive, and not as
much of a mind-game as VF2. Maybe if there was a VF2 on campus here, I might
get into that more. I'm sure I wouldn't have to look too far for tough
competition.
Beating each other over the head with each game's "crowning
achievments" however, gets us nowhere fast. Telling us how much better the
other is isn't going to suddenly magically open our eyes and think, "gee, he's
right, I'd better go get started playing that game right now!" The fact is
that the majority of the posters on this group are probably already very good
at the games they play, and very little will sway them from their current
focus.
Maybe the best idea for all of us is to go back and play the other
game for a week or so, and form a true opinion about it without any
pre-conceived notions. Who knows... your preference may turn. Then again,
maybe we should all just stop being so violent and go back to pinball. ;)
So, with that, I wish you all happy gaming and intelligent posting.
And if you disagree with me, don't hesitate to say so.
But that's just me.
Ruiner
<BIG SNIP!>
> -Oh yeah I also saw someone mention stance in VF2. If Sega could've payed
> so much attention to this small and somewhat *useless* detail how come
> they forgot that humans have 4 limbs? Why worry with how you're standing
> when you haven't even gotten the basics right.
>
<Small snip>
>
> Kevin
Just a second there.... Stances make a HUGE difference in game play,
especially for me. I play Wolf, I only play Wolf. Now try to imagine
this. I am on the left, my oppenent on the right. If I have MY right
foot forward, and my opponent has HIS LEFT foot forward, It is EXTREMELY,
if not impossible, for me to LOW throw him. THis is because the distance
between him and me is too large because of our stances. So whenever this
happens, I gotta do a move that changes my stance, so that I can Torso
grab him and make him PAY for just crouch blocking!
I played tekken2 a little, just yoshi and Kunim, and the thing that
turned me off to the game was the lack of delay. I am a huge SS2 fan, and
I like SS3 (although they shoulda beta'd a LOT longer) and the best thing
about these games is that if your opponent does something stupid, you make
him PAY. Not like in tekken where either Law or Lei can just keep doing
combos, and even if I get lucky and block them all, I can't retaliate. In
vf2 if I block sidekicks, or
Kage's little flying kick, SOMEONE is getting Giant swinged outta the ring....
Ruiner
Chae An
Ruiner <rui...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>Just a second there.... Stances make a HUGE difference in game play,
>especially for me. I play Wolf, I only play Wolf. Now try to imagine
>this. I am on the left, my oppenent on the right. If I have MY right
>foot forward, and my opponent has HIS LEFT foot forward, It is EXTREMELY,
>if not impossible, for me to LOW throw him. THis is because the distance
>between him and me is too large because of our stances. So whenever this
>happens, I gotta do a move that changes my stance, so that I can Torso
>grab him and make him PAY for just crouch blocking!
Yep. Stance is important, but that does beg a question. The
answer to that unspoken question is that the stance is made important, as
a part of the gameplay. Depth like that probably could work with Tekken
2 as well. But I think we can agree that VF2 and Tekken 2 take different
approach to the final product, and without saying how one game is
superior than the other, that's, I think, just fine.
> I played tekken2 a little, just yoshi and Kunim, and the thing that
>turned me off to the game was the lack of delay. I am a huge SS2 fan, and
>I like SS3 (although they shoulda beta'd a LOT longer) and the best thing
>about these games is that if your opponent does something stupid, you make
>him PAY. Not like in tekken where either Law or Lei can just keep doing
>combos, and even if I get lucky and block them all, I can't retaliate. In
>vf2 if I block sidekicks, or
>Kage's little flying kick, SOMEONE is getting Giant swinged outta the ring....
You can retaliate fairly easily in Tekken 2. Retaliation is
about half my game with Jun after all. Aside from blocking strings,
which become a mechnical routine after a while, knowing when to retaliate
with what is a large part of strategy in Tekken 2 I think. After most
attacks and combos that do not connect, your throw range is increased,
for example, and can grab and punish opponents outside of your normal
range. Sort of like the TKoD where Jeffery "rushes" across the ring for
the Crucifix Piledriver. But throws don't do much damage so I rarely use
them for retaliation. But these times are made for combos of your own.
I rarely use combos when I'm playing except in these situations when I'm
reasonably sure they'll connect, and they'll do a load of damage.
Another thing I do is I let them get away with some of the
combos. I can block most of the hits, if not all, and as an individual
hit, the kicks and punches don't do a lot of damage. But next time they
try something similar, I can time my rushing uppercut to counter at the
"blockable" points (if I know that character well) or at the end of the
combo. So F+2, then 3+4, 3+4, then 1+4,3,2,4,4,4,3 and more than half
their life gone with relatively little risk to myself. In the above
combo, do the initial 3+4 so the opponent is hit for damage still
relatively high in the air (where the F+2 had kindly put him/her ^_^) and
then immediately follow with another 3+4 so Jun can land on your opponent
(this one should not do damage; if it did, it'll make the following combo
undoable). From here, immediately launch into 1+4,3,1 combo of your
choice. Jun will kick your opponent up in the air and do some more
damage. Not exactly high strategy as far as the combo is concerned but
the real planning and strategy come before the combo is even started.
Another thing I do is when Jun's back is turned, I keep her
there. For some reason, her kick to the behind has better range than her
front kicks and can catch a lot of players unaware. I also keep Jun
lying on the ground sometimes too, where one button can have her up and
kicking or sweeping.
Still I admit I'm thinking much more when I was playing VF2. In
Tekken 2, I can go into my defensive mode, already knowing what buttons I
will press (my hands are one those buttons right then; no, not the
reversals) and can expect to do well. No such complacency in VF2.
> Ruiner
--C h a e
--
cha...@hom.net cha...@best.com
http://www.best.com/~chaean
"I'm strangely attracted to Camille Paglia..."
"Is that wrong?"
THE M-A-S-T-E-R
>Cr...@ucla.edu (CreeD) wrote:
>> ... Okay. My two cents are:
>>1.Tekken2 DOES actually have strategy.
>>2. It's less than VF2's level.
>>
>> .. flame me or whatever, that's cool, I enjoy these discussions.
>>Really.
> No flame just a comment. True VF2 has more of it but not by much. I
>mean some of you exaggerate the difference a little too much. VF2 was made
>to be a "deep" game, TK2 a easier and funner one.
>Kevin
No flame just coment
Tekken Has Strategy but it is less than virtua fighter 2
But in the virtua fighter series beginers can't jump into
the game and have fun.All they can really do is a series of
punches regular kicks and simple f,f * b,b * moves. To at
least be good in virtua fighter you have to study lots of
moves and tatics to be adequit.
But Tekken Allows you to jump in and feel at home
-\\-the-\\-M-A-S-T-E-R
THE M-A-S-T-E-R
Tekken Is a Good game with lots of strategy ( especaily like
side stepping people who run at me and then do a 5 to 10 hit
combo on them , crowd applauses thank you a say!! =^)
there are easy to very comple cated combos just like VF2 and
it is easy for a person new to the gameto play it unlike in
VF2.
And you can go on from a Beginner pulling of side steps
combos, counters , puonces, and throws
and unlike virtua fighter TeKKen 2 is powered by a sony
Playstation board(System eleven is the same as the sony
playstation except it doesn't have a CD-Rom drive) unlike
virtua fighters high cost model 2b board .
-\\-the-\\-M-A-S-T-E-R
CreeD
>Kevin
uhm. It would help if you quoted a TEEEENY bit to let us know whom
you're addressing :)
MeMEMEMeMeMEmEmE!
Hugh L King
>From: do...@umd.umich.edu (Douglas William Cole)
>Subject: Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than VF2
>Date: 29 Jan 1996 06:40:11 GMT
>sats...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
>: On Jan 28, 1996 05:15:06 in article <Re: Tekken Strategies NO less than
>: VF2>, 'jl...@netcom.com (Lark)' wrote:
>Speaking of the characters, Tekken 2 has 10 normal
>and 12 secret characters that are TOTALLY unbalanced with each other.
>Even die hard Tek2 fans have to agree with this... the game balance is
>just plain HORRIBLE.
Just out of idle curiosity, who's totally unbalanced with each other? (besides
Paul =) ) I have to agree there are some characters unbalanced, but I'm
wondering if you're thinking of the same ones I am. (did you mean the normals
aren't balanced well against their bosses?)
Hugh King - http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/1577/
CreeD
>efl...@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca (Sitson Lee) wrote:
>>
>>I play TK2 just for the hell of it. I get easy win streaks against local
>>guys who I see play the machine everyday and could almost finish the CPU.
>>Hmmm.... Does that suggest anything about how good the game is? Tell you
>>guys, I'm a button masher when I use Baek. Left Kick, Right Kick, Right
>>Kick, Left Kick etc..etc.... Not difficult at all I'd say. On the other
>>hand VF2 is just not the same.
>>
>>Also, if you TK2 frantics think TK2 is the best, hold a tourament and
>>see if anyone would travel great distances to play this turtling game.
>>If it was held in Ottawa, I'll probably join just to laugh at the so
>>called "master" when I beat them.
>>
>>--------------------------------------------
>>Sitson Lee
> Ok since I don't want to reply thousands of times to the same
>typical msges I would just summarize everything in this poat.
>Maybe if we really did hold a tournement nobody would come on the other
>hand maybe not....this is not a solid argument.
well sure it is. If I consider VF2 worth even considering paying
hundreds for just to check out a tournament up in canada, ...
if you're not even sure if anyone would consider doing this for TK2,
it makes it kind of clear that people just don't seem to get into it
and don't expect much interesting to be happening if a tournament were
to be held. I'm not even saying that that's what would happen, but by
your dismissal of this as a solid argument you kind of suggest
something to that effect, or imply it. If it's not worth that, what
is it worth?
>Hmmmm...."I am a button masher I win all the time TK2 sucks"...are you
>guys *pre programmed* robots or something?
>Okay enough of that, now to the serious part.
yes, lets...
>I think we can all agree that VF2 is a deep game, much research went into
>it and I think the developers deserve to be praised for their hard work
>but who doesn't?
>From what I've seen in these posts here are the arguments I've collected
>concerning the VF2 vs TK2 thing and what I think of them: (BTW I'm a TK2
>supporter).
>- VF2 is real, TK2 is not. I don't know when I see somebody getting SPoD I
>don't go ouch, I go wow how did he do that hyper hard move but when I see
>King do his multis I don't think about how the guy did it I tell myself
>that has got to hurt.
That's a more opinion thing. I've seen king's strings all the way
through and while they look kinda. . unsettling. . when I see the SPoD
and replay it in slo mo I really have to wince at the way akira is
double palming someone high in the back. I simply think *SNAP* ...
. ditto for the louder hitting noise of a DEEP m-single palm. But I
have to say that TK2 has some of the stuff that makes me wince more
like the arm and knee breaking throws, neck snappers, etc. .. the
throws in that game rule. But the hits and hit noises. . I pretty
much don't hear any and what I do hear sound like. . uhm. ... hard to
describe but not solid wacks and thuds or even skwishee bloody noises.
The best stuff, hit impact wise, is reserved for the throws.
>TK2 might not be realistic (with the flashes and
>everything) but at least you can feel it and wasn't that supposed to be
>the whole point of a game being *real*, so that you feel that you're
>there?
Nope. The whole point of some games is to be entertaining, and a
challenge, and fun to play and fun to accomplish things in. Not that
TK2 lacks any or all of these. But I get more fun and more sense of
accomplishment out of VF2, flat out.
>- Most used argument: VF2 combos aren't pre programmed like those of TK2.
>Hmmmm...if I asked you guys what was the best looking move in VF2 most of
>you would say SPoD or something on that line. Now a question..is SPoD pre
>programmed?
yeah. Sort of. It's separate moves anyone can do individually, but
the designers made it so that you could, times correctly, do them
consecutively. It's basically a two hit multithrow followed by an
auto palm followup to a throw that normally doesn't have one.
>The point is pre programmed combos are just an addition to the
>game. They are an *EXTRA* element. A bonus you might say. So what wrong
>with that? Is SPoD bad because it is pre programmed? I say its a plus to
>the game. I have asked this before and I'll ask it again what do you call
>pre programmed?
Any combo that is clearly canned and is not simply the different
attacks done consecutively, but rather moves that come out only
specifically after other moves, like the overhead chop that comes
after lion's uppercut, the sweep that comes after a single jab with
jacky <who otherwise doesn't have a reliable knockdown sweep> .. etc.
like the TK2 strings that loosen up on the recovery/timing of certain
moves so that they can automatically be folloew up with other moves, a
la Akira or Wolf or Jeff's PK combo.
>Kage's best non pre programmed combos seems to be after
>the TFT, did you know that TK2 has a move that acts a lot like the TFT
>its done by Jack-2 and you can chain up a whole list of things after it
>just as you would with the TFT.
Well that's just neat. The TFT is a kinda cheap move, and someone
commented kage belongs in TK2 more anyway. . .because any throw that
gives you for free the best float combo you can come up with.. .
imagine lau with a TFT. bleah. I get sick thinking about it. But
anyway, . .. I don't hate the TFT that much, it's not the only source
of good combos. I like the fluidity of elbow stagger, PK, sliding
sweep, or turnaround sliding sweep, turn towards sweep.
> The float combos in VF2 are called air
>juggles in TK2. Ok here are some calculations. VF2 has 3 buttons, their
>combos although not pre programmed are still based on three buttons. TK2
>has 4 buttons the combos are sometimes pre programmed sometimes not but
>the pre programmed ones use almost all the combinations possible so which
>game has more combos?
Who care which has more combos? This argument has no weight with me
whatsoever. TK2 has <theoretically> twice as many characters and then
some as VF2, it has BETTER have more combos. But in any case, Killer
Instinct two has more combos than one which had more combos than any
of these games. Having more combos isn't anything that special, we
mostly seem to agree about the cheesiness of canned combos and KI
style unrealistic barrages...
>- In TK2 when you fall you're dead. Have you played TK2? There are so many
>ways to get up just like VF2 except that in VF2 you are guaranteed a
>pounce after some moves or combos no matter how you get up whereas in TK2
>how and when you get up is very important.
VF2 has many ways to get up but admittedly not as many as TK2. But
learning to kip up, roll away, roll to the side, etc. add variety in
VF2. I learned to kip after a military press with jeffry so that if
he assumes a light pounce followup is safe, I let him whiff it then
punish with the throw of choice. Whereas rolling to the side is a
better tactic than kipping for avoiding certain other pounces because
you can rise with a kick to nail the pouncer.
I agree that it sucks that some moves have guaranteed pounces
afterwards, but what's so cool about VF that I think TK doesn't have
is that some moves will have a harder hitting effect according to your
distance, etc. and open up opportunities for pounces where there
usually are not any.
> A pounce in TK2 doesn't do much
>damage in VF2 its over proportionally damaging especially something with
>so little trade off.
so little trade off? Depends on character. In general though,
missing one type or the other with each character means death. Jeff
can miss a high one, land on his back, then roll away and get up
safely, but a missed light pounce will guarantee all the time in the
world to combo or throw.
The bryants and pai can miss either and get at the least a free rising
kick, sometimes a regular knock down or PPwhatever combo...
changes a lot. I don't like the TK pounces, they're almost useless.
>- VF2 graphics are better than TK2. You got me here. I'm still wondering
>why Namco didn't use their system 22 board.
>- VF2 has more moves. Totally wrong here. VF2 has crouch dash,throws,
>counters and reversals, etc... so has TK2. TK2 has tackle,
got us there.
>multi part
>throws,
SPoD.
> unblockables,
You're BRAGGING about unblockables!? :) ... technically wolf's
clotheline is not blockable, you must either duck it or take mild
damage and a knockdown for blocking it high. Does that count!?
>throw disengaging
we got that.
>AND reversing.
We got that.
> Some of you say
>that the tackle is like a run in throw who are you kidding? The tackle is
>a special move that VF2 doesn't have full stop. You can run in and throw
>in TK2 but its not a tackle its a throw.
agreed.
the tackle isn't such a strong point, but it's there and VF don't got
it, neAt.
>-TK2 characters are all mirrors of each other (referring to the
>sub-bosses). Hmmmm this is interesting. In VF2 you have 10 characters. In
>TK2 you have 23. In VF2 some of the characters have the same move. Same
>thing in TK2. Ok now the differences. From what I've heard all of the VF2
>players play differently. In TK2 all the sub bosses are combinations of
>normal characters right? But wait take off all the sub bosses, bosses and
>special characters and you still have 10 completely different fighters
>left. Paul, Law, Heihashi, Nina, Baek, Jun, Lei, Jack-2, King, Yoshimitsu,
>just as many as VF2. But wait a closer look at some of the other
>characters and what do we find? Bosses that have nothing to do with their
>selectable counter parts: Ganryu, Alex, Devil, Kazuya, Kuma, and Bruce.
>Whats that 6 more characters than VF2. And the rest Kunimitsu, Anna, Lee,
>P-Jack, Armor King, Roger, Wang well ok maybe they have some similarities
>but a experienced player will see that most of them have enough
>differences to be learned differently (Wang for instance).
Well put. I'd be inclined to agree. Still. In VF maybe four
characters share a few specialty moves like pai and lau sharing the
same basic PPPK, which differs from sarah's PPPK, or pai and lion
having sweeps, jacky and sarah a flipkick..
but in TK2 many of the characters seem to share whole arsenals and
it's the specials that only make a small difference.
> Now lets check
>another aspect of character selection. Hmmmmm pick a character in VF2 with
>a different button and you get.....hey a different color. Do that with TK2
>and ..... you get an Angel instead of a Devil, a Lizard instead of a
>Kangaroo (and I haven't even tried all of them) otherwise you get an
>overhaul of the whole outfit not simply a palette swap.
Please note that while for the most part this is true VF changes more
than the color. For pretty much all characters except shun. One
jeffry wears big bermuda pants, the other had wack shin guards and a
shirt, pai and lau differ in the cool texture mapped outfit design..
like lau has a tiger on one and a dragon on the other.. and sarah goes
from a bodysuit to "trailerpark sarah" <thanks jirawat> with big calf
boots, jeans, button down shirt half open and little black bra...
> Once again the
>extra characters are a bonus to us, the different characters and different
>outfit lets us narrow down our choices. I know some people who always
>chooses the same outfit for their character because they like it better.
>When I play VF2 I don't really care what button I press to select in TK2 I
>care.
and that's you.
>Ever seen a Laser battle between two Devils? Now change one of them
>to an Angel and you'll see the importance of this small detail. The
>characters might be 100% the same but they give you a totally different
>impression.
>
bleah. so? I mean, yeah, graphically TK2 has stuff to offer VF2 does
not.
It came a bit after VF2 as well. Maybe we'll see some neat things for
VF3 that improve on the concept further.
>- Lots of discussion about VF2 strategies, lots of discussion about TK2
>multies and combos. Well think of it this way, what do you call basic
>knowledge in VF2? You have to know at least the basics before you can do
>the harder stuff right. Hmmm you talk about croush dashing, Senbon
>punches, G cancelling, aren't these the basics?
fuck no, ... .. I got into these a >while< after the BASICS. These
are extremely useful advanced techniques that take a lot to master
that no self-styled VF2 expert can expect to go without. But before
you go for crouch dashing and senbon punches, you have to learn
regular dashing, and g-cancelling. before you learn guard
cancelling you need to figure out when and where to throw out regular
attacks and how to do the non g-cancel moves and combos. I dunno
where you got the impression that these were the "basics" .. maybe
because they're discussed a lot?
>Without them VFers will
>not be able to do much of the hyped combos.
True, for the ones hyped on this group at least. You can still get
nice combos without though.
> Well in TK2 get this straight
>Multies and pre programmed combos ARE the basics. Ask any serious and
>good TK2 player and he'll tell you that against tough competition you will
>rarely use the hyped multies and combos they on their own are useless.
agreed.
> You
>need to set up your opponent before you do them in other words you have to
>implement them *into* your fighting style, you can't just stupidly
>memorize them and use them any time you want otherwise you'll be dead
>before you knew it. TK2 has strategies its just that you guys tend to put
>them aside. Where is all the talk about croush dashing? Maybe you forgot
>that if TK2 had all these stuff it wouldn't be TK anymore it would be VF.
and the better for it.
>We don't talk about senbon and the like becaue we don't have them. We have
>multi's, reversals, and pre programmed combos thats why we talk about
>them.
And that in itself seems kinda limiting. We talk more about strategy,
and you don't see anything about "how do I cheeze the CPU with XXXXX?"
and "help! how do I time multis" ... you see the occasional posts on
timing which is great, but it's usually for timing the non canned
stuff, the m-moves and TFT combos, not the canned stuff. Actually
some guy asked a while ago about the SPoD but that's supposedly old
news by now ;)
>If its going to be this way why don't you just ask us how come we
>don't have SPoD or how come we always talk about Law and not Akira?
We don't, . . we're asking where the beef is regarding strategy and
non canned combos. Please don't come back with "float the guy with a
floater move, then do the string of your choice" .. VF has that to
be sure, but .. okay, give me a few four hits that don't rely on a
single auto-followup/string or whatever.
>-Oh yeah I also saw someone mention stance in VF2. If Sega could've payed
>so much attention to this small and somewhat *useless*
yet another one of those fun people who has no idea what they're
talking about. I've gone over the importance of stance before, and
before me others on this group have. I won't bother again. I'll
leave it at this... just because you can't see the usefulness
andhaven't played the game enough to understand it doesn't mean it's
useless. Let me put it in terms you can explain: Stance determines
how easily you can be thrown, IF you can be thrown at all, and
changing stances will help you avoid the single deadliest attack/combo
in the game. Does that put it in perspective?
It alone wins games at higher levels. Don't underrate the "useless
details" . .. I'm sure a coupla months ago crouch dashing would have
been labeled even by VF players another useless nice touch by sega.
uh uh.
>detail how come
>they forgot that humans have 4 limbs? Why worry with how you're standing
>when you haven't even gotten the basics right.
oh give me a break, as if TK2's four limb control but makes it any
deeped than the high kick low kick high punch low punch layout of MK
or something. Which attacks BECOME your "right" or your "left" depend
on the stance. On one side in one stance you get beat knuckles iwth
one hand, in another side and another stance, you get it from the
opposite side. Admittedly there are more attacks with the LP and RP
and LK and RK as opposed to just P and K but that doesn't make the
game. VF does an amazing number of things with the single punch and
kick and manage to do them while keeping a simple, logical control
layout.
> All this said it is quite easy to see that TK2 is no less a good
>game than VF2 (if not better IMHO). And right now I have yet to see a
>solid argument that really makes VF2 much better than TK2.
You're REFUSING to see the solid arguments it seems to me. People
post over and over just a few of the little things that are huge in VF
and add depth and they get blown off by people, dismissed as
unimportant details. They're just small examples of very rich
gameplay.
> Of course I'm
>open to any comments and/or flame you guys might have concerning what I've
>said.
>Kevin
heh, I have a little of both, help yourself.
Richard D
> I played tekken2 a little, just yoshi and Kunim, and the thing that
>turned me off to the game was the lack of delay. I am a huge SS2 fan, and
>I like SS3 (although they shoulda beta'd a LOT longer) and the best thing
>about these games is that if your opponent does something stupid, you make
>him PAY. Not like in tekken where either Law or Lei can just keep doing
>combos, and even if I get lucky and block them all, I can't retaliate.
>
I have been watching this news group for a while and recognize that people always
complaining about button smasher (mashers), and how cheap they are. To me, there
is nothing such as cheap stuff in this world. This is a free country. You can do
whatever you want to do and anything that fit your style. And No style is
unbeatable. (Very simple, if you use an "unbeatable" style, why can't I do exactly the
same thing? Eventually, either you or I will lose)
Enough BS, let's propose some useful strategy V.S. button smasher:
1) reverse move - (b+1+3, B+2+4, B+1+4 etc)
Easier said than done. You have to have almost exact timing for this. And
only high or middle moves can be reversed, and only a handful of character
have this move. ( Jun, Paul, Nina, Wang, Anna). Nevertheless, this can be
very useful to expert player through enough practice.
2) trade hits - this technic can be employed by those characters that has power
punch. e.g. Paul, Wang, Heitachi (anyone else?). You stand at about 5 steps
from you opponent. When you see them doing their rushing punch (1,1,1,1,1) -
Law's favourite, you fly off a power punch (QCT+2). Usually you will trade hit and
better off by about 20% damage.
3) know the combo - I am pretty sure everyone has been harrassed by Lee's stupid
3 low-kick+ 1 middle kick combo. The key is to know when the combo will end.
and retaliate. This technic require a little bit of understanding of different
characters. Generally expert will vary their play very differently. But hey,
we are talking about button smashers here.
4) use counter move - this is by far my most favourite tactics V.S. button smasher
there are several moves for certain characters in this game, that will hit the
button smasher even if he do his stuff first. Usually that will be
i) high V.S. low move. e.g Jun's cartwheel (3+4) V.S. anyone with crouch attack.
ii) low V.S. high attach Michelle's rushing uppercut (f+1), or Jun's
charging strike (f+2), even Heitachi's f,f+2 if you time it right.
The sweet thing about this tactic is that you can tap into juice combo after this.
For Michelle's combo, please refer to my Michelle's Faq v2.0 deluxe.
For Jun's combo, pull out the infinity combo.
For Heitachi, normally the hell sweep + axis kick is too profound for me to use.
I will just do a punch (1) and then death fist (QCT+2), for only a 65% damage. Good
enough for now. Afterall, we are all friends. Don't be too mean. Otherwise no one
will play you.
Richard D
rich...@freenet.vancouver.bc.ca
Kevin Pak
[A LOT too much to quote] ;)
Anyways I'm not going to bother analysing your arguments in detail but here
are some of my points of view:
I think most of us TK players agree that VF2 is a deep game (so was VF1) all
we want to point out is that TK2 is deep too maybe not as much but not far
from it.
I have enough of these lame arguments that VF2 is better because there are
no pre programmed combos and that you can make your own, especially from
those of you who definetely shows no understanding of TK. There are several
things wrong with your argument. First of all TK2 has many combos that are
not pre programmed you just have to discover them yourself (just like in
VF2). Also even the pre programmed combos can be cut halfway thru. I think
many of you have a misunderstanding that the TK combos are like those of SF
and X-Men (the Supers where you tap a few buttons and everything comes out
automatically). Although it is nowhere as advanced as a g-cancelled move you
can tap a few buttons of the combo, stop, then continue with a totally
different move. In VF2 you can P,K, g to pull back the kick and then do
another move. In TK2 you can't but you can still do combos that are not
programmed. For instance LP,LP then the death fist. In VF2 in order to this
you would need g-cancel because otherwise you end up doing a Left then right
punch (or was it R then L). If your argument about pre programmed combos is
that you end up doing moves you would not be able to do normally on its own
let me ask you this is Akira's double punch a pre programmed move? I think
the one punch config of VF2 actually makes it impossible to avoid these kinds
of pre programmed moves (and thus the need for g-cancelling).
Did you know that crouch dashing is actually thought to be a bug not an
original move?
Realism? Devils and Angels are not real whereas a dummy is (in case you
do not know I'm reffering to Dural)? How about those jumps that seems like we
were on the moon? Oh don't forget humans can breath in water. Come on the
fact that it is a video game alreay makes it unreal (ok I admit this is far
fetched). Anyways my point is just because TK2 has dino's devils and the like
doesn't mean its a kids game and just because VF2 is *more* real doesn't
make it a grown up game.
Its these kinds of posts in which the author definetely shows a lack of
knowledge concerning the *other* game that makes us start VF2 vs TK2 threads.
IMHO its the VF2 fighters that usually start the flame war (usually). From
what I've seen most TKers take a more passive approach we wait for you to
post something (like this one) and we counter your arguments with our own .
Till now this approach has seemed to work quite well since most VFers (those
that U said had enough of this thread I say they have nothing left to say)
have clearly shown that they do not have answers to most of the arguments we
bring up.
Oh BTW pls learn a little more about TK2 before you criticize it, I've played
VF2 a lot and although I'm no pro I have at *least* a small understanding of
the game and the elements that form it. Hey I do have one thing I agree with
you, the reason VF2 don't know how good TK2 is, is because they rarely spend
enough time on it to get a full understanding. Like you said you guys think
VF2 is sooooo good that you do not even want to try other ones. Hmmm...listen
to other more experienced VFers they'll tell you this: "Most people don't
like VF2 is because it is so hard to learn, it takes time. You will only
truly appreciate it after you have spent many frustrating hours getting
everything right and if you don't spend these hours trying you will never see
the true colors of VFing". Hmmm does that say something to you?
Kevin
P.S: Although I think TK2 is better, I do not say VF2 is bad on the contrary
I think it is very good. It IS deeper than TK2 but that alone does not make
it better. (Just in case you thought the reason I posted this msg was because
I hated VF2).
l...@mail.netdoor.com
>
> Ok since I don't want to reply thousands of times to the same
>typical msges I would just summarize everything in this poat.
[CHOP!]
>- In TK2 when you fall you're dead. Have you played TK2? There are so >many ways to get up just like VF2 except that in VF2 you are=
guaranteed >a pounce after some moves or combos no matter how you get up whereas in >TK2 how and when you get up is very important.=
A pounce in TK2 doesn't >do much damage in VF2 its over proportionally damaging especially >something with so little trade off.
I find that the pounces in VF2 are much more realistic. After you got
smacked hard in the face by someone's knee, or just got pile-driven into
the ground, you probably wouldn't be real quick to get up. In TK2, I see
moves that would leave someone unconscious, yet characters hit the ground
and are rolling away in less than a second. And being pounced upon
=should= do more damage, when you've got a large body of mass falling on
top of you, it's gonna hurt! Besides, in TK2, there are plenty of moves
that leave you open to a pounce, a regular little uppercut will. The
point is, being on the ground is a vulnerable position, which is why it's
important to get someone there.
[SLICE!]
>- VF2 has more moves. Totally wrong here. VF2 has crouch dash,throws,
>counters and reversals, etc... so has TK2. TK2 has tackle, multi part
>throws, unblockables, throw disengaging AND reversing. Some of you say
>that the tackle is like a run in throw who are you kidding? The tackle >is a special move that VF2 doesn't have full stop. You can =
run in and >throw in TK2 but its not a tackle its a throw.
But, take a look at the number of moves per character, not the ones that
are shared among characters. Although I don't have an exact number count,
it seems characters in VF2 have more idividual moves.
[CRUMPLE!]
>and ..... you get an Angel instead of a Devil, a Lizard instead of a
>Kangaroo (and I haven't even tried all of them) otherwise you get an
>overhaul of the whole outfit not simply a palette swap. Once again the
I thought Alex was a separate character from Roger, accessed by a
different code. I'm not sure, you may be right.
[RIP!]
>-Oh yeah I also saw someone mention stance in VF2. If Sega could've >payed so much attention to this small and somewhat *useless* d=
etail how >come they forgot that humans have 4 limbs? Why worry with how you're >standing when you haven't even gotten the basics ri=
ght.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "*useless*" here. If you're saying
all this talk about stances doesn't really matter, then you're wrong.
Stances are important in VF2. The difference between getting tossed or
whiffing a throw depends on stances. Some moves even miss if the two
characters' stances aren't closed.
> All this said it is quite easy to see that TK2 is no less a good
>game than VF2 (if not better IMHO). And right now I have yet to see a
>solid argument that really makes VF2 much better than TK2. Of course I'm
>open to any comments and/or flame you guys might have concerning what >I've said.
You bring up some good arguments. I enjoy playing TK2 a lot, since the
regular VF2 crowd has been playing it a lot. I do find TK2 to be a faster
playing game, but a little too defensive, a la KI (Although I shouldn't
even compare a great game like TK2 to... that.)
B-Bye,
>Kevin
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Patrick Phalen _/ "Ken, what do you see beyond your fist?..."_/
_/ l...@mail.netdoor.com _/ [Insert Dramatic Pause] _/
_/ _/ "My fate." _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
LittleTheo
(L. Granquist) writes:
> You misunderstand my article. It would be impossible to develope
>a set of characters that are completely balanced, but I beleive that VF2
>is the closest game out there to having the ideal of a balanced set of
>characters. In my first few months of playing VF2, my opinion of who was
>the most powerful, and who was the weakest characters has continually
>changed.
Unfortunately, there is one sort of game like that. Ryu and all his clones
on SFA.
All it is about is picking the one which works for you. Besides Sodom,
Adon, etc., everyone is a Ryu.