To cheese or not to cheese.
road...@delphi.com
playing MK][. I was among the top 5 in my whole city and surrounding area.
There were only a few guys that could beat me, and then not consistantly. Then
there came the cheese we all know and love. The "Let's walk back and forth, and
roundhouse the guy when he jumps in" strategy. This ended my MK][ playing. I
could've stooped to that level, and probably still been in the top five. But,
I refuse to do one set of idiotic, repetitive moves just to get a win. IMHO
this is not good playing. You do not have to be even a *decent* player to use
most of these strategies. That's the beef I have with them; the fact that any
moron that doesn't know the first thing about the game, and how it works, can
beat me unless I do their moron stuff better. These little lab-rat strategies
are not good playing. They are a set of stimulis-response muscle memories,
that's all. Now, most video games do have reflexes as the main focus, but
fighting games have strategy and psychology as well. That all disappears the
second you use a cheesy strategy. There is no such thing as a cheesy move :
there are only cheesy strategies. The guys that do these are obviously all-
american. They have that typical attitude that all's fair in love and video
games, and that you should win anyway you can. And then these guys have the
nerve to lecture me that video games aren't that damn important. Whenever I
mention the fact that they only know one strategy, they say, "Hey, anything
that gets you the win. Winning is everything. Lighten up man, it's just a
game" . I mean, first they say that they'll do anything and everything to win,
then they say it's not that important. Well, I just got tired of it. Every
time a Jacky guy uses the same crusty old Jacky cheese strategy, I just tell
him he's boring and walk away. I see very little point in playing a guy that
I either will lose miserably too, or have to out-cheese. Where's the fun in
being some mindless zombie, waiting for the other guy to make a mistake, and
letting the time limit expire? I have seen many good Jacky guys play each
other, and maybe 1 time out of 100 do I see a KO. Where's the fun in crouching
down, and waiting for the guy to walk in so you can knee-kick him? This is
fun? Not to me. Does anyone share this attitude? Is it just me being bothered
by the way things are?
Dyslexic Frums
I for one completely agree. The stand back and roundhouse strategy
-- and its counterpart, the throw just when you thought you could have a
real fight strategy --requires slightly less talent than walking and chewing
gum at the same time. I have played against countless numbers of the
hypocritical lab monkeys to whom you refer. Now here is the real fun: let's
see how many of these losers start to pout defensively in response to these
posts. If you're ever in my area, come by for a real fight and we can
thwart these pansies together.
--
****************************************************************************
Brad Allen ba0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu "He who hesitates
University of Rochester is late"
****************************************************************************
that stupid club
several revisions to "de-cheese" it. Unfortunately, it did not salvage
game play.
Ultimately, the game should not devolve into simplistic and robotic
strategies. If it does, there should be a strategy to avoid or remove
yourself from that situation.
In MK2 and VF, those situations occur very easily. In SF2, the players
jockey for position to place the opponent into a disadvantageous
situation.
A fighting game should be fun when you play to win. It shouldn't have
to be made fun by 'de-cheesing rules' self-imposed by the players. If
that's the case, it's simply a lack of play-testing by the game designers,
IMO.
I found cheesiness in SF2 fun because it was avoidable. If you got
trapped, it was because you let yourself get into that situation. I
don't like it when it's unavoidable (early freeze/uppercut Sub Zero
patterns in early MK ROMs, Sonya's repeated leg grabs in MK, etc.).
The very first time I played MK on early ROM revisions, I performed
the freeze/uppercut pattern on the computer. Some poor guy joined in
and I tried it out on him. He didn't play the game again after that,
and neither did I. I didn't know if it was a beta-version or what,
but I was unimpressed by the lack of gameplay and foresight of the
game designers of MK.
Ming
--
Eu-Ming Lee mi...@interaccess.com
"It's not unusual to see me cry; I want to die." - Belly
ALAN
MKII
~~~~
> A note about cheese : I was the probably the first guy in my area to quit
> playing MK][. I was among the top 5 in my whole city and surrounding area.
Congrats.
> roundhouse the guy when he jumps in" strategy. This ended my MK][ playing. I
Never works on me. It took a few games, but there are countless counters.
Tick them with fire-balls or use some ground pounds. Scorps teleport can
be obnoxious to them. Or maybe use Sub, and stay on the ground. Learn
to win a sweep war. Throws make them cry, and then they get careless.
All you have to do, is get the first hit in, and they will start attacking.
Learn the Jump-kick ranges. You can connect with a Jump kick, even against
a ninja-roundhouse. Just jump from farther away. Or don't jump.
But I digress...
> there are only cheesy strategies. The guys that do these are obviously all-
> american. They have that typical attitude that all's fair in love and video
There is NO 100 percent cheese pattern, that can only be countered by the
same pattern. Not ONE. Sounds to me like you just got bored of MKII.
( Like the rest of us...)
VF
~~
> other, and maybe 1 time out of 100 do I see a KO. Where's the fun in crouching
> down, and waiting for the guy to walk in so you can knee-kick him? This is
> fun? Not to me. Does anyone share this attitude? Is it just me being bothered
> by the way things are?
I'm sorry, but everyone who you've seen play must suck rocks. VF is the
most balanced, least cheesy game I have played. A crouch and wait? HA.
A fake, they miss, then they die. Or maybe a Jeffrey mid kick Crucafix
Death stroke. ( Had to throw that in...:D) A Kage sweep. A Sarah knee.
A Sarah double side-kick. Tons of moves.
Anybody who beats me using 1 or 2 patterns deserves to win. It is a
challenge to find the counters to these strategys. Walking away from
anyone who can beat you is not going to help your game. I do
understand your frustration. But trust me. It feels SO GOOD when you
discover a counter and then proceed to slaughter your "cheesy opponent".
If you get a guy/girl who is slaughtering you with one pattern, post
the pattern. Someone will surely post a few counter suggestions.
( More specific than mine for your sake.)
Akira (The Overlord)
Geoff Dyment to others...
< This is a HUGE post. Ooops. >
>
john woodrow sims
Ummmmm, could you tell us a little bit about this
'cheesey' Jacky strategy? I have yet to find a playing
style in VF that has no logical counter. I agree on the
MK SF front, though. Poor playtesting.
Johnny
Pete Philippis
: A note about cheese : I was the probably the first guy in my area to quit
: There were only a few guys that could beat me, and then not consistantly. Then
: there came the cheese we all know and love. The "Let's walk back and forth, and
: roundhouse the guy when he jumps in" strategy. This ended my MK][ playing. I
Yeah, it can be a problem when you have defensive players who start the
back and forth walk dance. You can quickly stop that however, with Jax!
He'll get 'em jumping. Other good players are Liu Kang and Kung Lao for
their low projectyles. Raiden has a teleport. What I can't stand are
the footsweep battles between the girls and Shang Tsung. Irritating and
mindless.
David Fisher
the only flaw in the game, although a big one. But look at the rest
of the game... The rest was designed perfectly, IMHO. Certain characters
can stop the cheese such as Liu Kang with his low fire ball or Kung
Lao and his hat. Try these on guys that just sit there. Jax's earthquake
is another one that works. I agree, though... The "cheese" can get
boring real quick.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
David Fisher <fis...@oasys.dt.navy.mil> wrote:
>I agree for the most part. MKII ended up so you could cheese... Probably
>the only flaw in the game, although a big one. But look at the rest
>of the game... The rest was designed perfectly, IMHO. Certain characters
So, the game engine sucks, but everything else is perfect, eh?
Sounds like a winner to me. I hope you don't buy your next car
using this arguement.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
KnightoftheRedRose
people cheesed on every game he played......
Well THE ONLY thing I agree with you on is the fact repetitive moves get
boring, not FOR YOU tho it should the guy playing the character.
Cheese is another word for "damn someone found a way to beat me and I
cant find a counter"
It is a typical HUMAN (not american sorry) response.
First of all overall MK II blows. After you find all the little dorky
secrets and moves whats left? Nothing because game play sucks.
I rarely see ANYONE at the MK II machine. Virtua Fighter and Super
SSF II Turb have the players.
As far as Jacky is concerned -- he is damn good THE BEST in the game.
If this was done on purpose or not who knows but its a fact.
Just like guile and dahlsim ruled the orginal Street Fighter II, so
Jacky rules Virtua. And it is not a cheese. his moves are as ligit as
ANYONE elses moves -- its all timing. On SSF II I use Ryu for the most
part and I use his round house combos well. More than one person
has complained cheese... but only when its against them. When they are
using a cheese move it is "hey its his move he can use it". Alot
of people have doublestandards....
Anyway, be careful what you call a cheese, if you are losing find a way
around it, EVEN most cheeses have counters and some moves that counter
good combos can reverse the move and give double damage or more back
on the other character... but dont expect someone to let you use all of
your moves and combos and they just stand their....
No offense to anyone, this is just food for thought.
David Fisher
Also, there are ways around the "cheese".
Scott D Bradburn
Ah, well, why don't you name one of those SF 'cheesey' strategies with
no counter? I haven't found something that's either a) instantly fatal
and nearly impossible to avoid, or b) endlessly repeatable and impossible
to stop. At least not since the first version of SF2.
john woodrow sims
'Cause I asked you first.:) Seriously, I stopped playing SF about the
time MK was getting to be _really_ popular, so I don't know much about
the incarnations that followed the first one. It would stand to reason
that they corrected the inequalities from the first SF2. I took to VF
like a fish to water when it showed up, so I don't spend a cent on any
other fighting game in the arcade. My main point is that on VF, it
seems obvious that the game was playtested to some degree, and the
character balance reflects that. Cheese is in the eye of the beholder.
Johnny
road...@delphi.com
>Anyway, be careful what you call a cheese, if you are losing find a way
>around it, EVEN most cheeses have counters and some moves that counter
>good combos can reverse the move and give double damage or more back
>on the other character... but dont expect someone to let you use all of
>your moves and combos and they just stand their....
play a game that is supposed to be about skill? This is mindless nit-picking
behavior that no one in their right mind could enjoy. I had to quit playing
because I would not find counter-patterns. It's not that I couldn't have; I
just didn't feel it was worth it to become some mindless robot, in endless
cheese pattern wars.
--
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄż
łBurt "Beavis" Ward : ROAD...@Delphi.Com / Shell to DOS... Come on back!ł
łSysOp of the White Knight BBS 304.346.3419 / Shell to DOS... Do you copy? ł
ĂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ´
łStuff that's cool : Beavis and Butt-head, wrestling, Star Trek, programming,ł
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łthe Sci Fi Channel, Kids in the Hall, Hong Kong Phooey, and Heather Locklearł
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Cyrus Bulsara
I must agree with you.....I too was among the top few in my city when the
"cheez" patterns came around.Oh yeah I just love playing some jerk using
Sub-Zero who just crouchs and waits for you to move.Wow thats fun.I love
it even more when I outcheez him and he leaves tho.....I just sit there
and wait.Eventually I will win because I know how to do more than one thing...
Its fun to beat these guys tho.....because once you outcheez them they
won't waste thier money losing some more to you....
Just my $.02
--
Cyrus Bulsara,AQ...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA ,ENV.ENG.
"How would you feel about life if Death was your older sister?"-Neil Gaiman
road...@delphi.com
be avoided. I know that there are counters to every move. My whole point was
that cheese should not exist. I shouldn't *have* to counter a cheese because
it *is* a cheese. The attitude of "let's win at any cost, even if it means
cheesing" and the simultaneous "Hey, it's just a game, what are you all pissed
for" attitude to me indicates that the person I'm playing doesn't care about me
or the game, or the graphics, or anything else but winning. The best way to win
these types of cheese games is to act the computer, and just execute one
mindless series of moves in the same order the same way. This is not skill. Thi
At best it's a pointless attempt to prove your better than another guy. For me
at least, it takes all the fun out of the game to just play defensively, and
do one cheese pattern all the time. It turns into "who will make the first
mistake". If I wanted to play a game like that, I'd play chess.
Dave Kirsch
>"KnightoftheRedRose" <jwmc...@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>
>This is exactly my original point. Why should I have to out-cheese someone to
>play a game that is supposed to be about skill? This is mindless nit-picking
>behavior that no one in their right mind could enjoy. I had to quit playing
>because I would not find counter-patterns. It's not that I couldn't have; I
>just didn't feel it was worth it to become some mindless robot, in endless
>cheese pattern wars.
These moves aren't cheesy: they WORK.
You can't blame a person for 'not playing right.' Any series of
action or inaction that the game itself allows is acceptable.
Mortal Kombat I suffered this same fate as well: defensive play.
It has nothing to do with the people who play: it has to do with the
design of the game itself. You don't see this mindless robot
defensive playing in games like Street Fighter, because the game
environment is designed in such a way that you can 'get at' a
defensive opponent (throw him/her, etc).
The Mortal Kombat series of game systems encourage absolute defensive
play: that's the bottom line. If it bugs you, find a game with a
combat system that doesn't encourage such play.
Just for your info: I'm not a total anti-MK person. I play it as
well. I get called cheap for playing 'robot style.' That's one of the
reasons I hardly play anymore. Why do I play this way? Because I win.
Losing sucks (and costs money!).
If I didn't have to stick in 25 cents everytime I lose, maybe I
wouldn't play so defensively.
--
/// Dave 'Zoid' Kirsch | __ I used to have a life, then I started playing SF2
zo...@grog.mlnet.com | \/ http://www.rsoft.bc.ca/zoid.html
Mills / Allan William (ISE)
When I battled the old woman in PI I often jumped at the start towards
her. Quick as a flash she would run underneath me then perform her
version of the dragon punch from behind me. Almost no human could have
done such a manouver.
I never liked it in SF2 how Balrog could do a series of running punches
which were impossible for a human to perform due to charge time
requirements. I especially hate how Blanka's close range moves trigger
when trying to knock out an air opponent. Blankas' flip kick is great for
air defense but at close range he does that stupid ground kick. The same
with his uppercut which transfers to the stupid double roll and claw.
I swear some games have a special tactic mode they switch to sometimes
which is nearly impossible to beat.
Allan
Tellure
: I agree for the most part. MKII ended up so you could cheese... Probably
^^^^^^
Heh, it's funny how these sayings get started, up here in my neck of
the woods (Vancouver, Canada) the word is "cheap" not "cheese". And if
you pull some unfair manoevres you are being "cheap" or "cheaping someone
out". It kind of makes sense when you think about it because the person
playing unfairly will probably win and thereby not lose their quarter,
hence, they are "cheap" :). BTW, as with "cheese" I'm sure, this word
applies to all player vs. player fighting games, not just MK or SFII.
Anyways, just thought I'd interject that - does anyone know where
"cheese" comes from??
-Aaron
Plucky
> out". It kind of makes sense when you think about it because the person
> playing unfairly will probably win and thereby not lose their quarter,
> hence, they are "cheap" :). BTW, as with "cheese" I'm sure, this word
> applies to all player vs. player fighting games, not just MK or SFII.
> Anyways, just thought I'd interject that - does anyone know where
> "cheese" comes from??
>
> -Aaron
Cheese derives from the Latin root "Jee Wiz" as opposed to the more archaic
term "Fuck You" . The manuvers demonstrated to their newbie and hence less
experienced opponants, became undominatable tricks which could not be grasped
by their younger minds. So the "Cheeze" factor became cheating. While Cheezing
has become outlawed in the more established arcades, It has aquired a status
symbol of rebellion, and has attracted a large underground following. If by
chance you should encounter a "Cheezer" and cannot defeat him. Post his pattern
here and we tell you how to clobber him.
Cited from the "Book of Perpetual Cheeze" -by Lee M. Burger of GreenBay,
Wisconson.
P.S. if you think this is a bunch of "Hooey", Eat your "Wheaties", or I'll kick
you in the "Knads" and whatch you "Hurl". =P
______________________________________________________________________________
[All Information In This File Is]
[For Informational Purposes Only]
[In Other Words: If You FUCK UP!]
[ !DON'T BLAME US! ]
Love and Kisses........................................................Plucky
Aphoriel/Kinsman
Out here in Eastern Canada (New Brunswick), the word is "scam".
We talk about "being scammed", "scamming b******", and "(S)Cammy" :)
The implication here is that you're pulling a hustle or a trick
on the other player. The word is also pretty broad: other phrases
are "fire scam" (any fireball/DPmove tactic done repeatedly)
"corner scam" (any fancy tactic done to keep someone helpless in
a corner.) and "block scam" (any pattern of attack which is easy to
do, forces the (average-to-poor) player to keep on blocking, and
keep taking off ticks of energy.)
>-Aaron
-Aphoriel/Kinsman
Sean Givan
Thomas M. Blair
Le Ric
John Lantz
>Well, a few of you guys have completely missed the point. I know cheeses can
>be avoided. I know that there are counters to every move. My whole point was
>that cheese should not exist. I shouldn't *have* to counter a cheese because
>it *is* a cheese. The attitude of "let's win at any cost, even if it means
>cheesing" and the simultaneous "Hey, it's just a game, what are you all pissed
>for" attitude to me indicates that the person I'm playing doesn't care about me
>or the game, or the graphics, or anything else but winning. The best way to win
>these types of cheese games is to act the computer, and just execute one
>mindless series of moves in the same order the same way. This is not skill. Thi
>
>At best it's a pointless attempt to prove your better than another guy. For me
>at least, it takes all the fun out of the game to just play defensively, and
>do one cheese pattern all the time. It turns into "who will make the first
>mistake".
First off, All I really have to say to you is Grow up. Your
argument about waiting for people making mistakes deosn't make sense at
all. In any kind of competition (video games,sports,and others things)
the key to doing well and winning is waiting for the other player to make
a mistake. For instance in a chess match, when a player makes a wrong
move, are you going to say "You know what, you made a mistake, but I'm
not going to do anything because then I'd be a mindless robot executing a
move that works when you make a mistake". From what you are saying, you
don't want anyone to use a reliable move when you make a mistake. You're
probabley one of those people who just never learn that if jump at the
Ninja's all the time, you are going to get roundhouse or if you jump at
Ryu and Ken you're going to get uppercutted. As mentioned before, these
are called reliable moves that work . What did you expect from everybody,
not use a move that works? If people played the way you *want* them to
play, then the game would not be consistent at all. It would end up being
who gets lucky. You also mentioned that it should be skill that should
win out. Well guess what, skill is using moves that work at the the
right time and knowing when,where and how to use it effectively. How
would you define skill in competition directly against other people?
To me it just seems that your pissed that when people finally start
getting the hang of a game, you get mad because they just don't make
mistakes for you to counter with your mindless robotic style. And BTW no
one *made* you quit playing a game, it's your choice.....If want to whine
about it then tell it to someone that cares...
David Fisher
from the old saying "cheezy" which had a number of meanings. Well,
I live in MD, but depending on where you go, even locally, they use
different words. I just used "cheese" because this guy at my arcade
uses it a lot and I saw it on the board...
Richard Y Choi
i know that this sounds stupid but the 'cheese' is really strange how
it came about. Not like I know exactly, but the word spread by unknown
circumstances around the country. Around here, when the first SF2 came
out, there was this one guy that was incredible at the game. So
generally people listened to his comments. He was using the word cheap
jokingly when his Zangief punched, then SPDed the opponent. One little
kid said, "cheese?" Mistakenly took cheap for cheese. This sounds far
fetched but that was the first time I heard the word even though I
played some time before. I doubt that it came from Latin origins.
Anyone know of this word that came about unobtrusively?
road...@delphi.com
>Mortal Kombat I suffered this same fate as well: defensive play.
only in MK I. I could always start a punch-till-they-try-and-uppercut thing if
they just tried to duck. MK I did not have the big prob with MK ][, the fact
that air attacks are useless. Any air attack can be countered with *some* move
by the other guy. And I know *plenty* that do nothing but that.
>Just for your info: I'm not a total anti-MK person. I play it as
>well. I get called cheap for playing 'robot style.' That's one of the
>reasons I hardly play anymore. Why do I play this way? Because I win.
>Losing sucks (and costs money!).
Therefore, I don't play. VF, to me, is even more cheesy than MK and SF because
there are two defense modes : standing and ducking. Also, every character has
a move that will hit either modes. Therefore it becomes more a question of who
can out-guess their opponent more often. This incourages counter-attack play,
more than balance. It becomes a question of who can capitalize the most on a
mistake. I liked SF][ because it was a fast-and-furious type of game for a
while. The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
SF][ encourages counter-attack/defensive play via Ken and Ryu. MK][ encourages
pure cheese, mindless counters and defence. VF is mostly trying to out-guess
rather than counters and so on. Thus, the guy that can do the most moves that
hit in both defence modes will win. Jacky is fast, and has the most moves.
That's what makes him good : it's a built-in cheese advantage.
road...@delphi.com
> First off, All I really have to say to you is Grow up. Your
>argument about waiting for people making mistakes deosn't make sense at
>all. In any kind of competition (video games,sports,and others things)
>the key to doing well and winning is waiting for the other player to make
Anyway, this is a typical attitude of the cheeser. They want to continue to win
and don't see anything wrong with it. Ok, I suppose I should have clarified wha
what I meant by mistakes. In the type of game-play I know and love, mistakes
are a split-second affair. The pattern is complex, and intuitive. You play
mostly by instinct, but have that part of your mind saying, "ok, if he does
that I'll do this, and when he AHHA! ok, two taps forward, button" It's a
combination of deductive, computational ability (left brain) and pure
intuitive awarness of the game (right brain). This will "plug" you into the
game, and give you a perfect combination of both hemispheres of your brain. If
you have not had this experiance, I feel sorry for you. This all seems a little
grandios for a video game, but it happens. Like I said, mistakes are split
second. With the cheese moves, the right brain side of the equation is gone.
You now run fully on deduction, and execute moves based on a mindless pattern
that you worked out, or more likely saw someone do. You camly do your little
pattern, and wait for the guy to screw up, like jumping in. In the first type
of play the guys watching are mostly quiet. When one guy gets caught in a move,
they say something along the lines of "Oh, he got nailed!". In the second type
though, everyone knows exactly what mistakes are going to produce what results.
They watch the guy jump and think, "Oh he's gonna get it!". The fun, that
Zen feeling of "being one with the game" is gone, and all that's left is a
chess game with simplistic rules, and few pieces. Anyone who can still have fun
at the game playing this way obviously cares only about winning, and gets all
their thrills from watching the other guy put in more money.
Ok, so my post was larger than VFs FAQ. Sue me.
--
ЪДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДї
іBurt "Beavis" Ward : ROAD...@Delphi.Com / Shell to DOS... Come on back!і
іSysOp of the White Knight BBS 304.346.3419 / Shell to DOS... Do you copy? і
ГДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДґ
іStuff that's cool : Beavis and Butt-head, wrestling, Star Trek, programming,і
іchicks, money, rock, Movies, the Simpsons, Usenet, Letterman, the Far Side, і
іthe Braves, the Phillies, Ren & Stimpy, comic books, video games, the State,і
іthe Sci Fi Channel, Kids in the Hall, Hong Kong Phooey, and Heather Locklearі
ГДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДґ
іStuff that Sucks : Rap, Hulk Hogan, stupid people, Bill Gates, Knee-Jerk і
іreligious dorks, the KKK, Prodigy, and Gates McFadden not getting naked. і
АДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДЩ
Scott D Bradburn
>I liked SF][ because it was a fast-and-furious type of game for a
>while. The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
>guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
>non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
>across the screen. How do you defend this?
This shows a SERIOUS lack of knowledge about SF2. The DP has 2 parts: going
up it's totally invulnerable, and coming down it's totally vulnerable. So
HIT/THROW them on the way down! In fact, get daring, and combo them into
oblivion. Now, you say: Every time I try to attack I get hit by a DP! And
I give you a bit of advice: Don't try to throw Ken on his first DP, since
he's too quick to get him when it's unexpected, attack him or throw him on the
second one, which is easy to throw, if you're opponent tends to try multi-DP's.
This is easy to do.
> It's a cheese of the first order.
There's very little in SF2 that's not as easy to counter as it is to do.
Even ticks. No-skill ticks take no skill to counter, and so on.
>SF][ encourages counter-attack/defensive play via Ken and Ryu.
Rephrase this statement: Ken and Ryu tend to be used as counter-attack/
defensive players. That's accurate. If you want to play offensively, pick
another character. Depending on the version: Vega, Balrog, & Chun Li all
tend to be offensive and work well against different characters. Balrog
and Vega tend to SLAY Ken and Ryu with their offensive capabilities, especially
on recent versions. Chun Li is a very good universal character. She can
beat most characters and she's quite effective even on slightly broken
controllers. She just has some problems against the Ken/Ryu types if they're
in expert hands.
that stupid club
>while. The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
>guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
>non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
>across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
Boy, your Ken players must be very skilled. And you must be even more
skilled if you can't figure out how to take advantage of this.
By providing a concrete example of what you call "cheese of the first
order", we all know now that you just suck. Why don't you provide
a few more concrete examples to show off your ignorance?
Ming "I know two or three guys that can do non-stop jab dragon-punches!"
PS - Oh, and you have the wrong login name. It should be "mentalblock".
Mike Inglis
> guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
> non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
> across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
DO WHAT I DO! Block them on the way up, tag them on the way down. Some
times I can "trick" the computer into doing a DP just when I want it to,
then whammo!
--
Mike "Mikey" Inglis (Opinions expressed here are probably bizarre)
I've lost my drum! I've lost my Indian drum!
Dyslexic Frums
>order", we all know now that you just suck. Why don't you provide
>a few more concrete examples to show off your ignorance?
>Ming "I know two or three guys that can do non-stop jab dragon-punches!"
>PS - Oh, and you have the wrong login name. It should be "mentalblock".
>--
We all thank you for a worthwhile post and insult. Boy, you sure
enlightened us all!
--
****************************************************************************
Brad Allen ba0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu "He who hesitates
University of Rochester is late"
****************************************************************************
that stupid club
>>By providing a concrete example of what you call "cheese of the first
>>order", we all know now that you just suck. Why don't you provide
>>a few more concrete examples to show off your ignorance?
>>Ming "I know two or three guys that can do non-stop jab dragon-punches!"
>>PS - Oh, and you have the wrong login name. It should be "mentalblock".
>>--
> We all thank you for a worthwhile post and insult. Boy, you sure
>enlightened us all!
You're welcome. However, I wasn't the least bit enlightened by your
worthless and meaningless post.
Ming
Dave Kirsch
>>Mortal Kombat I suffered this same fate as well: defensive play.
>
>I have to disagree here. I have yet to find a person who can play me
>defensive only in MK I. I could always start a
>punch-till-they-try-and-uppercut thing if they just tried to duck. MK
>I did not have the big prob with MK ][, the fact that air attacks are
>useless. Any air attack can be countered with *some* move
>by the other guy. And I know *plenty* that do nothing but that.
The counter for someone standing over you and punching is a crouching
kick (otherwise known as the 'wimpy kick'). Doesn't do that much damage,
but it pushes them away.
MK I and II promote completely defensive play. I could make a table of
your opponents does this, you do that. One of the main reasons is the
lack of moves in total (there's only about 10 moves per character).
There aren't any moves that get your opponent into a position where you'll
be at an advantage.
SF2 doesn't fall for this because you can take damage ticks off at range
with special moves such as projectiles (can't duck them like in MK). Also,
if you're opponent is just defensive, throw him/her.
>The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
>guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
>non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
>across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
Pardon? The dragon-punch is COMPLETELY vulnerable on the way down, just
sweep him. Your understanding of the mechanics of SF2 seems limited.
SF2 does seem to have a huge population of Ken and Ryu players. I think
that's mostly because they are easy to learn. Personally, I play them
once in a while, but they are not my main focus. Because of the huge
infestation of Ken/Ryu players, I play characters that are excellent
against them: naming Balrog and Guile (Vega is an excellent destroyer
of Ken/Ryu as well). About the only character that gives me trouble
when I'm playing the 'Rog is Zangief, and hardly anyone plays him.
>SF][ encourages counter-attack/defensive play via Ken and Ryu.
What about the other 14 characters (I don't include Akuma, since he's
Ryu on steroids). You are not limited to just playing Ryu/Ken.
road...@delphi.com
like to say that I think that if you guys could play the two dudes I am refer-
ing to, you might change your minds. As far as I know, there is nothing you
can do to get by this crap. The best example I know of if the fireball. I
would throw out a jab fireball, and it would go right through him, ON THE WAY
DOWN! Ken's feet don't hit the floor when the guys do this. Like I said earlier
Ken says "shoruken" (True spelling ignored). Ok, when the jab DP is going on,
Ken says this : shshshshshsh. What are you supposed to do? Name something,
and I'll say I tried it and it didn't work. Maybe I can get some MPEGs of this
so you guys can see what I'm talking about. The main point is this : even if
this is just me, and others defeat it easily, the guy that would use that, and
nothing but that is cheeser at heart. Hell, one of these guys could beat me
without it, and he would *still* use it piss me off.
rpm
> Scott D Bradburn <sc...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> writes:
>
> >This shows a SERIOUS lack of knowledge about SF2. The DP has 2 parts: going
> >up it's totally invulnerable, and coming down it's totally vulnerable. So
> >HIT/THROW them on the way down! In fact, get daring, and combo them into
>
> Well, I don't know what exactly you've seen in the way of dragon punches, but
> I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
> to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
> refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
> is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
alot of characters can... who do you use?
it is definitely -=NOT=- the incincible tactic that you describe it to be.
> catch them. They do the other DP *before* they land. I need to make a video of
> this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
no, some of use need to make an MPEG for you...
-rpm
rpm
> Ken says this : shshshshshsh. What are you supposed to do? Name something,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
shshshsh?
it dawned on me, like when a fella finally discovers the answer to a
really tough riddle. Scott, you shoulda known! ;)
roadblock,
YOU'RE PLAYING AN ILLEGAL CHIP MACHINE!!!!!!
ug. I should have noticed that description before!
_NO_ regular sf2 machine goes shshshshshhshsh!!!!
you are playing on a "hacked" chip, illegaly made and altered.
and obviously you've found out the downfalls of these things,
which is game balance is shot to hell.
On some of them K/R can shoot CHAINS of fireballs, on some Guile has
NO charge, etc etc etc.
okay, roadblock, it's time for you to get justice.
Go and demand to face'em on a NORMAL machine.
what's a normal machine?
- there should NOT be a "SHSHSHSHSHS"
- speed should not be absurd
- try to find a SSF2T or SSF2 machine. There has been no illegal
chips made of those yet (at least, none that I know of)
and that'll make sure you get a fair shake.
-RpM
road...@delphi.com
>up it's totally invulnerable, and coming down it's totally vulnerable. So
>HIT/THROW them on the way down! In fact, get daring, and combo them into
I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
road...@delphi.com
>By providing a concrete example of what you call "cheese of the first
>order", we all know now that you just suck. Why don't you provide
>a few more concrete examples to show off your ignorance?
but it caused SF][ playing in my area to *stop* after these guys started
playing. What *do* you do? I never found a way to beat it. The guy that
started it up is a friend of mine, and I played him for maybe an hour one
day without coming up with anything, other than another DP. What is your
solution?
Scott D Bradburn
>Well, I don't know what exactly you've seen in the way of dragon punches, but
>I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
>to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
>refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
>is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
>catch them. They do the other DP *before* they land. I need to make a video of
>this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
>up, and before they come down even a half cm they are up again.
The only way a DP series couldn't be countered would involve them continually
moving upward. This requires a hacked machine, in which case, you can't do
anything. On the other hand, if they're moving across the ground, that means
they're going up and down, and you can EASILY sweep them on the way down if
you have any sense of timing. You must sweep them before or when they land,
and not later, or the next DP will catch you, but it can be done, and it's
not even hard. We have plenty of people who can do jab DP series, but they're
smart enough not to. And about the fireball not hitting them: That's not
a big deal, they're smart enough to make sure their DP has the right timing
to avoid the fireball, they can't do the same with a throw/sweep/combo.
The repeated DP has one use: Throw a random DP which catches the opponent
a little off guard, they try to counter just a hair too late and get caught
in the second DP. The second or any subsequent DP is simple to counter if
you wait on it.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
One of two things ais happening here:
1) You're playing on an illegal hacked machine.
SOLUTION: I doubt that this is the case. Can people throw FBs in
the air? Are the colors messed up? Is it insanely
fast? If so, you're playing on a butchered version of
the game...stop playing it.
2) You're not very experienced at SF2.
SOLUTION: Ken's been able to do his little continuous DP since CE.
the way to stop this is to hit him with a _low_ attack
like a crouched forward as he's coming down from the DP.
This takes timing, but is insanely simple to do once you've
seen it done. Several other people have offered this same
solution.
We know exactly what you're talking about, and it's nothing special.
Try the counter. Don't counter with an FB, and don't counter with a
Rounhouse. Counter with a fst, far-reaching attack. Once you've
got the timing down, you can try the big stuff, like countering with
a throw.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Mike Inglis
> SF2 doesn't fall for this because you can take damage ticks off at range
> with special moves such as projectiles (can't duck them like in MK). Also,
> if you're opponent is just defensive, throw him/her.
Well, you can usually jump over a projectile if you time it right, although
you may find yourself suckered into something. (As I often do.)
Also, doesn't MK also let you throw a defending opponent. It seems I've
gotten thrown a few times while blocking. (As long as we're talking about
throws in MK, could somebody just explain to me how you do them? The FAQs
I've seen spend a great deal of time explaining the special moves, but I
can't figure out how to @!*%@ reliably throw an opponent.)
--
Mike "Mikey" Inglis (Opinions expressed here are probably bizarre)
Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, Wilson Phillips, The Bangles . . .
just one chick from L7 could kick all their asses combined.
-- Beavis & Butthead
Mike Inglis
> Well, I don't know what exactly you've seen in the way of dragon punches, but
> I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
> to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
> refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
> is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
> catch them. They do the other DP *before* they land. I need to make a video of
> this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
> up, and before they come down even a half cm they are up again.
>
This is starting to sound like one of those "radical" editions with the
severely hacked chip. Can Guile fill the screen up with continuous
wavy Sonic Booms while "floating" in mid-air? We had one like that in
my arcaade for a while and I just stspped playing because this kid
would always walk up, pick Guile, and just start spitting Sonic Booms
out like a gatling gun. (In case any of you haven't seen this, I'm
talking about 10-15 sonic booms all over the screen at once.) An old E.
Honda player like me had no way to even get close to him. If your
arcade has a hacked hame like that, just stop playing. Its *severely*
tipped in certain character's favor.
--
Mike "Mikey" Inglis (Opinions expressed here are probably bizarre)
Look at that chord structure! There's sadness in that chord structure!
He doesn't know it yet, but he's balding . . . spiritually.
Brian Chan
>Well, I don't know what exactly you've seen in the way of dragon punches, but
>I'm talking about the jab Dragon punch. Ok, let me clarify. Ken says something
>to the effect of "shoruken" however it's spelled. Ok, when these guys I am
>refering to do the continual jab DP, it sounds like this :shshshshshsh. There
>is no pause, no time to hit them nothing. You can't even throw a fireball and
>catch them. They do the other DP *before* they land. I need to make a video of
>this and post and MPEG maybe. There is *no* time to counter. They start one
>up, and before they come down even a half cm they are up again.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What are you playing, a hacked SF2? Of course Ken's DP has a delay time,
it's just been shortened ever since CE. Just time your attacks more carefully.
If you want a character that can retaliate easier than most, try Balrog.
that stupid club
>The only way a DP series couldn't be countered would involve them continually
>moving upward. This requires a hacked machine, in which case, you can't do
>anything.
This isn't even true. The guy just sucks and he's trying to cover his
ass. On the hacked machines, you could do a DP at anytime you could do
a normal move in addition to the times you can interrupt a move with a
DP. But you could not interrupt a DP with another DP. First thing I
tried.
>On the other hand, if they're moving across the ground, that means
>they're going up and down, and you can EASILY sweep them on the way down if
>you have any sense of timing.
I don't see why you feel obligated to respond to roadblock's crap.
If this blatantly obvious solution is beyond him, then how are you
going to convince him that ticking, faking, and other subtleties
are not 'cheap' or 'cheese'?
Let him go on thinking that the two dudes in his area are fucking
Street Fighter Gods and we here on the internet are full of shit.
Ming
--
Eu-Ming Lee mi...@interaccess.com
"You might as well be dead he said, if you're afraid to fall." -TM
that stupid club
>1) You're playing on an illegal hacked machine.
You can't interrupt a DP with another DP on any of the hacked machines.
I've tried.
>2) You're not very experienced at SF2.
Obviously, he sucks at the game. His opinion of what is 'cheesy'
is based on very little substance. To add further insult to his
credibility, he comes back with replies insisting he's correct
after every tells him (more politely than me) how completely
wrong he is.
>We know exactly what you're talking about, and it's nothing special.
>Try the counter. Don't counter with an FB, and don't counter with a
>Rounhouse. Counter with a fst, far-reaching attack. Once you've
>got the timing down, you can try the big stuff, like countering with
>a throw.
This is such elementary newbie stuff. If you have to hand hold him
through a counter for continuous jab DP's, then how are you ever
going to convince him that stuff like Zangief's SPD ticks are not
cheap? Or that ticks are not cheap? Or even that DP's are vulnerable
as Ken/Ryu get up?
The real kicker is that he insists that he's not completely clueless
about the game. As if those two Ken players in his area have
discovered some elfin SF2 magic which has eluded the cumulative
knowledge of four years of the SF2 newsgroup. It could happen!
Adam Tennant
>SF2 doesn't fall for this because you can take damage ticks off at range
>with special moves such as projectiles (can't duck them like in MK). Also,
>if you're opponent is just defensive, throw him/her.
>>The Ken guys then took over. Ryu too, I suppose, it's just that most
>>guys I know that cheese in SF][ use Ken. I know two or three guys that can do
>>non-stop jab dragon-punches. There is no pause, they can do it all the way
>>across the screen. How do you defend this? It's a cheese of the first order.
>Pardon? The dragon-punch is COMPLETELY vulnerable on the way down, just
>sweep him. Your understanding of the mechanics of SF2 seems limited.
>SF2 does seem to have a huge population of Ken and Ryu players. I think
>that's mostly because they are easy to learn. Personally, I play them
>once in a while, but they are not my main focus. Because of the huge
>infestation of Ken/Ryu players, I play characters that are excellent
>against them: naming Balrog and Guile (Vega is an excellent destroyer
>of Ken/Ryu as well). About the only character that gives me trouble
>when I'm playing the 'Rog is Zangief, and hardly anyone plays him.
I agree with what you're saying, so what if they can dragon punch 'till the
cows come home, just paste 'em as they come down!
Things must be a bit different here ( Auckland, New Zealand ), because I've
only ever seen Balrog played once and Zangief is quite popular. ( He's my
favourite! ). I use him very effectively to stomp Kens and Ryus unless they
are really good when they can give you some trouble. We have masses of Kens
and Ryus here too ( more fun for Zangy! ) and a lot of Guiles too ( Blanka
is my Guile killer ) so I get lots of practise fighting them.
Well anyway, to the guy complaining about "cheese", get some more practise!
See ya round like a round thing,
Adam.
RPM
>In article <ZU7QbD5....@delphi.com>, <road...@delphi.com> wrote:
>>Scott D Bradburn <sc...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> writes:
>One of two things ais happening here:
>
>1) You're playing on an illegal hacked machine.
>
>SOLUTION: I doubt that this is the case.
It is. He described the "shshshshshshsh" sound of Ken
repeating his DP as only a hacked chip will allow.
-rpm
Tony `Xot' Morse and Co.
>
>This is starting to sound like one of those "radical" editions with the
>severely hacked chip. Can Guile fill the screen up with continuous
>wavy Sonic Booms while "floating" in mid-air? We had one like that in
>my arcaade for a while and I just stspped playing because this kid
>would always walk up, pick Guile, and just start spitting Sonic Booms
>out like a gatling gun. (In case any of you haven't seen this, I'm
>talking about 10-15 sonic booms all over the screen at once.) An old E.
>Honda player like me had no way to even get close to him. If your
>arcade has a hacked hame like that, just stop playing. Its *severely*
>tipped in certain character's favor.
>
both of the ones I played allowed you to change characters by hitting Start.
Oh yeah, and one of them crashed whenever Sagat threw a low tiger. =)
road...@delphi.com
couldn't tell you if it was a hacked machine or not, all I do know is that if
I let off the defense, the jab DP would hit me from half the screen away. Draw
your own conclusions. The machine this was on is long gone, so I couldn't tell
you anymore about it. The guy was *really* good with Ken anyway, so I just
assumed that this was a built-in move, and quit playing SF][ altogether.
Reguardless of this, I feel