[VO]:HKSR with central weapon cancel?
Winryder
Can you, after HKSR (see www.cybertrooper.com), do a central weapon
cancel? I haven't really try since I have trouble doing central weapon
cancel unfreeze technque...
How do you, after a dash fire, do a central weapon cancel so as to
'unfreeze' yourself?
Porcupine
Winryder wrote:
I think so. You can keep doing central weapon cancel unfreezes again and
again and again right after the other if u want.
After you dash fire (or before) make sure you have the joysticks in
neutral position.
As soon as the dash ends and you are standing still, push all four dash
and trigger buttons simultaneously. Then, move the joysticks in the
direction you want to dash in.
After you can do this, if you want I can tell you more details on how
to do this technique to its absolute fullest potential (which is not
what I told you). At its fullest potential, you dont even have to stop
completely from the first dash before the second (but you get real
close to stopping), it seems.
Mark Brereton
> Can you, after HKSR (see www.cybertrooper.com), do a central weapon
> cancel? I haven't really try since I have trouble doing central weapon
> cancel unfreeze technque...
>
> How do you, after a dash fire, do a central weapon cancel so as to
> 'unfreeze' yourself?
HKSR *is* a central weapon dash cancel. If you can HKSR, you can central
weapon cancel. The way it's done is to fire a standing (not walking I
believe, someone may want to correct me on this) and *immediately* dash
away.
Try the following with Viper:
From a standing (not walking) position, fire off the homing beam and
immediately pull the right stick to the right while hitting the dash button
and left trigger. Viper will fire off the homing beam then immediately dash
to the right firing off a hail of missiles.
Same thing with Dorkas' phallanx (phallanx then immediately fwd dash
fireball) or Temjin's sword (HKSR) etc.
It's generally just a matter of getting the split second timing right so
pick one attack with one mech and practice.
Maquis
Porcupine
Mark Brereton wrote:
> HKSR *is* a central weapon dash cancel. If you can HKSR, you can central
> weapon cancel. The way it's done is to fire a standing (not walking I
> believe, someone may want to correct me on this) and *immediately* dash
> away.
You can still dash away from a walking central weapon shot. Ive posted
the details of these techniques in great detail many times so Im too
lazy to post again :D
> Try the following with Viper:
>
> From a standing (not walking) position, fire off the homing beam and
> immediately pull the right stick to the right while hitting the dash button
> and left trigger. Viper will fire off the homing beam then immediately dash
> to the right firing off a hail of missiles.
You should also be able to dash away soon enough that the homing beam
never actaully shoots out, and you save your Homing Beam ammo. It's up
to u.
> It's generally just a matter of getting the split second timing right so
> pick one attack with one mech and practice.
this something else to this too, that many people didnt used to know.
Windryder, just follow what I said on the other post and it will
work fine.
thomas Liao
Porcupine wrote:
>
> You should also be able to dash away soon enough that the homing beam
> never actaully shoots out, and you save your Homing Beam ammo. It's up
> to u.
>
> > It's generally just a matter of getting the split second timing right so
> > pick one attack with one mech and practice.
>
> this something else to this too, that many people didnt used to know.
> Windryder, just follow what I said on the other post and it will
> work fine.
I know, also you can jump right after
its not good to dash with viper. Also i dont like people that do hksr.
To many players here at camelot it is considered running away, and not
wanting to do hand to hand. If you dont want to do close combat, just
say so and not attack. its like crouch bomb when oppoent is near or zero
distance laser. The players in japan only do hand to hand now, and they
are very good about VO ethics. If they win, its because of skill, and
not just running a way tactics. Honor has gotten so extreme there taht
they dont even jump cancel. all they do when opponent does circle attack
is put stick to neutral and block. then shift and it relocks on.
Anyways, no disrespect for those who use HKSR but please try to not use
this tactic. HKSR is counterable because once the oppoent does it all
the player has to do is to diagonal dash relative to the vector of the
HKSR player and shoot.
Winryder
After you can do this, if you want I can tell you more details on how
to do this technique to its absolute fullest potential (which is not
> what I told you). At its fullest potential, you dont even have to stop
> completely from the first dash before the second (but you get real
> close to stopping), it seems.
So how to maximize the tech. i learned last nite?
Thank you
Winryder
>
I tried that and it works. KEY: Stick has to be neutral before you do
anythingI still have to get it out consistently to do the
infinite-dash-cancel stuff.
Someone emailed be talking about b4 freeze cancel. i have yet to try.
B4 Freeze cancel
When you freeze, hit all 4 button and move your stick to the direction you
want to dash.
Interesting stuff from myron.wyles
Tirah Dragonfire
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, thomas Liao wrote:
> I know, also you can jump right after
> its not good to dash with viper.
I agree. Viper should be spending the majority of the time
in the air.
Viper newbies/midbies tip: If you constantly attack in the
air, a reasonably observant opponent will always know what
status your weapon gauges are in. Which can drastically
decrease your options to force a guessing game in
certain situations.
Ex. Let's say Viper just expended the 7-way. Overall,
this means you lose both the 7-way and the SLC for a good
4 seconds. In melee, it means you lose four options: SLC,
Crouch 7-way (incl. circ cancel), automatic 7-way changeover, and ground
to air 7-way.The opponent can thereby plan according to whatever
weapons you have left, which is much less a headache for them.
This of course also applies to attacking on the ground. I
only mention aerial attacks for Viper because I see this
situation more often. YMMV depending on your geographic locale's
playing style.
[...HKSR being dishonorable...]
> Anyways, no disrespect for those who use HKSR but please try to not use
> this tactic. HKSR is counterable because once the oppoent does it all
> the player has to do is to diagonal dash relative to the vector of the
> HKSR player and shoot.
I can see why it could be considered dishonorable to use this
move if both people agreed to melee. However, if as you say
the move is counterable, then why do you consider it dishonorable
to use it? i.e. just keep punishing it with the diag-dash
until the HKSRer stops doing it. :) Which seems to be
a different scenario compared to crouch bomb in close
combat, since it is nearly impossible to avoid them let
alone counter them,and scores a knockdown against the light VRs.
Tirah at drizzle dot com
Virtual On Cybertroopers:
http://www.drizzle.com/~tirah/vo.html
/\ "And those who call the shots,
/(__||__)\ are never in the line of fire.
( {} ) Why, when there's life for hire
\(--||--)/ out there? If a flag of truth
|| were raised, we could watch
|| every liar rise to wave it..."
||
|| "Not So Soft"
\/ -ani difranco-
Porcupine
Tirah Dragonfire wrote:
> I can see why it could be considered dishonorable to use this
> move if both people agreed to melee. However, if as you say
> the move is counterable, then why do you consider it dishonorable
> to use it? i.e. just keep punishing it with the diag-dash
> until the HKSRer stops doing it. :) Which seems to be
> a different scenario compared to crouch bomb in close
> combat, since it is nearly impossible to avoid them let
> alone counter them,and scores a knockdown against the light VRs.
Even though this move is counterable, the counter forces
the one who wants to chop (as opposed to the one doing HKSR)
to realize that he must (in serious swordfighting) always
have to deal with the threat of running away players.
So the chopper gets annoyed.
Besides, there is a counter to the counter to HKSR, just dont
do HKSR. Just run away. Instead of firing in your dash, you can
just dash cancel and dash again in another direction.
You should be able to get quite far away doing the first dash
before you need to cancel. If chopper immediately dashes in
reaction to yours, he will be too close and will overshoot
thrust vectoring position before he can fire. If chopper waits
a normalish time before dashing in response, chopper will
be pushed back from blocking HKSR players sword chop, so he can
thrust vector properly. But, since he waited too long, running away
player will have run quite far, and running away player is safe for
dash cancel and dash again.
I think, I am not sure, no one has tried to fight up close with
me for a long time. But I have tried to fight up close against
other people occasionally, when I am using Temjin or Apharmd, and
this is how they run away (I think).
Quang Lai
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.97120...@drizzle.com>,
Tirah Dragonfire <ti...@no.crap> wrote:
>I agree. Viper should be spending the majority of the time
>in the air.
I agree somewhat with that. There's no doubt that Viper's
strength is in the air, but I think it's more important to be
unpredictable - to mix up your style forcing your oppenent to guess.
>Viper newbies/midbies tip: If you constantly attack in the
>air, a reasonably observant opponent will always know what
>status your weapon gauges are in. Which can drastically
>decrease your options to force a guessing game in
>certain situations.
>
>Ex. Let's say Viper just expended the 7-way. Overall,
>this means you lose both the 7-way and the SLC for a good
>4 seconds. In melee, it means you lose four options: SLC,
>Crouch 7-way (incl. circ cancel), automatic 7-way changeover, and ground
>to air 7-way.The opponent can thereby plan according to whatever
>weapons you have left, which is much less a headache for them.
I agree with what you said. Knowing what weapon your opponent has
available really helps. I've encountered several matches where I used the
7way, jumped, and the opponent still thought I was about to do the SLC.
>This of course also applies to attacking on the ground. I
>only mention aerial attacks for Viper because I see this
>situation more often. YMMV depending on your geographic locale's
>playing style.
What does YMMV stand for? As well for Viper, I find his aerial
attacks not very good. His 7way is pitiful IMHO, and doesn't knock down.
The homing is so-so, but I'd rather j-cancel, homing-cancel instead. The
vulcan is good at nicking your opponent down - especially when he/she has
very little left. The homing and SLC in the air is the best bet, mixing
up the two, but I'm finding that the players here are getting good at
avoiding both. :(
Anywho, I should be studying for my exam, not thinking about
VOn!
friction
In article <EKxoL...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
qv...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Quang Lai) wrote:
> What does YMMV stand for? As well for Viper, I find his aerial
> attacks not very good. His 7way is pitiful IMHO, and doesn't knock down.
> The homing is so-so, but I'd rather j-cancel, homing-cancel instead. The
> vulcan is good at nicking your opponent down - especially when he/she has
> very little left. The homing and SLC in the air is the best bet, mixing
> up the two, but I'm finding that the players here are getting good at
> avoiding both. :(
>
> Anywho, I should be studying for my exam, not thinking about
> VOn!
I think Viper's aerial attacks are great, particularly the homing and SLC,
but they have the big disadvantage of jump attacks: you have to *land*,
and slowly. The 7way has its use if you are close to another flier; other
than that I agree with you. And I agree with what you said about the
vulcan. It's weak but very hard to avoid. But the combination of those 4
aerial options makes Viper terror from the skies.
I think that everyone gets good at avoiding the flying homing and SLC
because they have been so punished by them. So then, the next level of
offense, for me, is using them as a threat, and using the real thing very
carefully.
Another note: When somebody is great at a central-weapon-dash-unfreeze,
they are MUCH harder to catch with the homing beam. So here's my bit of
wisdom for those having a hard time hitting good players with it: Think
vectoring, even when you are in the air. I have noticed that people talk
about dash vectoring, but not jump vectoring. In other words, try and get
behind their dash vector, so that the homing beam is following them
instead of trying to hit them from the side. You usually need to fire the
homing beam ASAP in these cases to take advantage of it. It's something
I'm still trying to perfect.
And as for the SLC, I almost never use it against really good
competition. You have to make them forget about it, and that takes a long
time for some folks. Around here, I get punished for the SLC almost
without fail. But once again, they have to fear it, as long as they know
you have your 7ways, they know it's there.
--
friction
seattle
PermaJ
quang lai wrote:
>In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.97120...@drizzle.com>,
>Tirah Dragonfire <ti...@no.crap> wrote:
>
>>I agree. Viper should be spending the majority of the time
>>in the air.
>
> I agree somewhat with that. There's no doubt that Viper's
>strength is in the air, but I think it's more important to be
>unpredictable - to mix up your style forcing your oppenent to guess.
>
>
Do you guys always fire in the air??? I jump a lot, but I mostly cancel them
since my opponent's back is facing me most of the time, and that usually means
free hits. I only fire in the air when I have a sure shot. My Viper is more
of a ground based one, jumping mostly to dodge, then punish with a
flood-of-weapons. I think that on the ground is a really good way to play him,
cuz his standing weapons all come out quick, with very little recovery time
after. How does everyone else use Viper???
perma
Chris S.
PermaJ (per...@aol.com) wrote:
: Do you guys always fire in the air??? I jump a lot, but I mostly cancel them
: since my opponent's back is facing me most of the time, and that usually means
: free hits. I only fire in the air when I have a sure shot. My Viper is more
: of a ground based one, jumping mostly to dodge, then punish with a
: flood-of-weapons. I think that on the ground is a really good way to play him,
: cuz his standing weapons all come out quick, with very little recovery time
: after. How does everyone else use Viper???
Well, although my Viper is fairly new, it seems to be working best as you
said, a mix-up. 7-way's are fairly useless from the air, and homing beam
can fairly easily be dodged unless you're right on top (unlikely against a
croucher). I use Vulcan and 7-way for pressure, and the forward dashing
homing beam is my weapon of choice usually.
I rarely SLC because a lot of people know how to counter it, but I will
throw one out if I'm between mid and close range and an opponant dash
attacks and I'm already jumping. Usually hits em before they can central
weapon cancel.
Vulcan I use almost entirely for pressure, either on downed opponants or
at range while I move in. Mixing it up with a stream of moving crouch
shots can be confusing, and every bit of damage helps.
7-way I usually use either forward dashing with the rare side-dash vs an
air attacker. Side dash seems to hit people in the air better. I'll also
sometimes throw them out after a stream of vulcan shots (usually
crouched), but that's no too often.
Homing beam is mainly used via thrust vectoring. If someone dashes and I
want to punish them, this is how I do it. Forward dash, unless I want the
arc to go over an obstacle and it's beyond midrange. Then it's side..
--
----
Pyros
Porcupine
PermaJ wrote:
> Do you guys always fire in the air??? I jump a lot, but I mostly cancel them
> since my opponent's back is facing me most of the time, and that usually means
> free hits. I only fire in the air when I have a sure shot. My Viper is more
> of a ground based one, jumping mostly to dodge, then punish with a
> flood-of-weapons. I think that on the ground is a really good way to play him,
> cuz his standing weapons all come out quick, with very little recovery time
> after. How does everyone else use Viper???
Im a ground only Viper II.
It works pretty well, too, I think.
I only jump once in a while to dodge dash attacks, but then I will
cancel as soon as possible. Usually, this jump I only need to do
if I have fired a dashing homing beam and missed. Then I jump at the
end to get rid of dash freeze (no central weapon ammo so cannot
central weapon dash unfreeze).
I thrust vector or fake thrust vector a lot (not perfect line of fire,
but done on purpose for various reasons). If Im close in to begin with,
I use vulcan to thrust vector. If Im farther, I will use vulcan if
Im feeling unsafe (want central weapon dash unfreeze ability), if I
feel bold, I will use dash homing.
I waste 7 way missile whevner possible because I think they are
worthless,
if I get anything at all out of them I consider myself lucky.
My strategies change often though so I cannot say that
this is the best way to play Viper (most certainly it isnt) but it
is the best Viper II strategy that I have seen so far
(actaully Im beginning to suspect Im doing something else that
causes me to win, but I dont know what it is. So my strategies
might actaully be bad, and its just that I win for other strange
reasons).
friction
In article <19971211073...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, per...@aol.com
(PermaJ) wrote:
> Do you guys always fire in the air??? I jump a lot, but I mostly cancel them
> since my opponent's back is facing me most of the time, and that usually means
> free hits. I only fire in the air when I have a sure shot. My Viper is more
> of a ground based one, jumping mostly to dodge, then punish with a
> flood-of-weapons. I think that on the ground is a really good way to
play him,
> cuz his standing weapons all come out quick, with very little recovery time
> after. How does everyone else use Viper???
Wierd, my post on a bit of Viper strategy never showed up on my news
server. Hm. Anyway, I hope it came out.
Anyway, I mostly fire on the ground as well. Viper cannot really afford
to get hit, and the biggest vulnerabilities in the game are at the end of
dashes and jumps during which you fired, so they have to be used really
sparingly. I do most of my damage with the handbeam, on the ground,
firing 7ways periodically. I like to stay in uncomfortably close to the
opponent, when I can (depending on the enemy's mech and style of play).
But I *constantly* jump cancel, and I mean constantly. I use jump cancel
to avoid attacks, and only continue on to fire in the jump if the opponent
actually dash-fires (I use the homing of course). In my other post I
talked about the use of jump vectoring, probably nothing new to many of
you, but not something I've heard discussed.
So I agree with all you said, but I still think of my Viper as a flier. I
mean, even if I only fire Raiden's standing laser once a round, I still
think of my Raiden as the 'big-standing-laser guy', right? Same with
Viper's flying attacks.
--
friction
seattle
PermaJ
friction wrote:
> I do most of my damage with the handbeam, on the ground,
>firing 7ways periodically. I like to stay in uncomfortably close to the
>opponent, when I can (depending on the enemy's mech and style of play).
Howabout the standing homing? It's one my favorites and keeps ppl running into
my 7way or vulcan. And the freeze time is *easily* cancelled.
>
>But I *constantly* jump cancel, and I mean constantly. I use jump cancel
>to avoid attacks, and only continue on to fire in the jump if the opponent
>actually dash-fires (I use the homing of course). In my other post I
>talked about the use of jump vectoring, probably nothing new to many of
>you, but not something I've heard discussed.
I use jump cancels to stay out of view, especially when I'm trying to stay
within 200m. In situations like that you're pretty much free to do any kind of
standing or f-dash attack, cuz they really don't know what you're going to do,
and they can't see you either.
>So I agree with all you said, but I still think of my Viper as a flier. I
>mean, even if I only fire Raiden's standing laser once a round, I still
>think of my Raiden as the 'big-standing-laser guy', right? Same with
>Viper's flying attacks.
well, I'd like to think of my ground-game Viper as an offensive nightmare. But
when they start to get agressive themselves, the only thing to do IMO is fly.
You have to when you get knocked down and they fwd-dash bomb while you're on
the ground (this does no damage but when you get up everything's foggy and
they're right behind you). For me, firing while in flight is always a
defensive manuver. I'm not too keen on dumping missiles when I'm right on top
of them, cuz usually they don't hit, and ppl in Berkeley seem to be able to
'smell' an oncoming SLC. For my Fei it's the same way. I only fire in the air
when they dash-attack (like friction) Suprisingly, I hit alot with it too.
question: what's the exact moment Viper is vulnerable after an SLC? I'm one of
the few Vipers around here.
Another question: have you noticed that the 7way doesn't always come out
successively adjacently? (meaning not always one after the other right next to
each other) Sometimes it's all over the place. Anyone know the conditions? I
happen to like them coming out that way, as it's harder to dodge.
perma
Quang Lai
In article <19971211073...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
PermaJ <per...@aol.com> wrote:
>Do you guys always fire in the air??? I jump a lot, but I mostly cancel them
>since my opponent's back is facing me most of the time, and that usually means
>free hits. I only fire in the air when I have a sure shot. My Viper is more
>of a ground based one, jumping mostly to dodge, then punish with a
>flood-of-weapons. I think that on the ground is a really good way to play him,
>cuz his standing weapons all come out quick, with very little recovery time
>after. How does everyone else use Viper???
Depends on how I'm thinking. :), on a good day, I can be pretty
good with and careful with the jumps. I try to mix both air and ground
fighting equally. However, jump attacks do have the problem of freeze
time on the land (and slow landing), and so, like I said, if I'm on a good
day, I'm more careful of when and how I do it. AFarm sucks for Viper
since the air homing won't knock down, and AFarm will just come rushing
you with the shotgun (knocking Viper down). Bleh.
Anywho, I also j-cancel a lot. I like hopping around. I
basically do a lot of walking vulcan, trying to get close, j-cancel maybe
and 7way (ground), jump and either homing in air or cancel and then
homing.
--
Quang Lai http://www.interlog.com/~tripwire/
Quang Lai
In article <Z---friction-1...@term2-009.speakeasy.net>,
friction <Z---fr...@speakeasy.org---Z> wrote:
>Anyway, I mostly fire on the ground as well. Viper cannot really afford
>to get hit, and the biggest vulnerabilities in the game are at the end of
>dashes and jumps during which you fired, so they have to be used really
>sparingly. I do most of my damage with the handbeam, on the ground,
>firing 7ways periodically. I like to stay in uncomfortably close to the
>opponent, when I can (depending on the enemy's mech and style of play).
I like to get close to my opponent too, or let them get close to
me too. It usually backfires on me when it's Temjin or Raiden though, as
there crouch kills me in the end...I keep on telling myself that I can get
away in time, just shoot first. :) Apharmed is pretty tricky too, as his
tongers make him slide towards you pretty darn fast.
Speaking of Apharmed, (I'm gonna stop calling him AFarm now - he's
got my respect :), I'm beginning to really like playing him. Fast and
great armour. Everything Viper wanted to be...though Apharmed's weapons
are somewhat limiting (IMO of course!). Viper just seems to have so much
more options opened to him. And the shotgun delpletes so quickly! It's
too bad that Apharmed doesn't have a SLC move like Viper or Temjin, so
many times I try to do the SLC with Apharmed cuz I see an opening, and I
get the pathetic beam cutter. Bleh. :)
Chris S.
Quang Lai (qv...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
: Speaking of Apharmed, (I'm gonna stop calling him AFarm now - he's
: got my respect :), I'm beginning to really like playing him. Fast and
: great armour. Everything Viper wanted to be...though Apharmed's weapons
: are somewhat limiting (IMO of course!). Viper just seems to have so much
: more options opened to him. And the shotgun delpletes so quickly! It's
: too bad that Apharmed doesn't have a SLC move like Viper or Temjin, so
: many times I try to do the SLC with Apharmed cuz I see an opening, and I
: get the pathetic beam cutter. Bleh. :)
This is why I'm waiting for vo2's version of camo-boy. SLC-like dive
attack and twin submachine guns with rapid fire. Losing the bomb screen
might suck, but I use it almost entirely offensively now.
I can just picture sickening tactics with Aph. Slide, jump cancel,
(before cutter is released), SLC-thing. Slide, side dash cancel, napalm.
I honestly can't wait.
Actually, on the topic of all VR's. They all seem drasticly improved and
powerful. It sounds like it's going to be psychotic game. Totally fun.
=)
--
----
Pyros
Mark Brereton
> I think that everyone gets good at avoiding the flying homing and SLC
> because they have been so punished by them. So then, the next level of
> offense, for me, is using them as a threat, and using the real thing very
> carefully.
That's the thing, when I play a new player here, the first thing I do is
throw
and SLC at them. Usually it connects, but even if it doesn't, they know
it's
there. You've then got them thinking "this guy likes to use SLCs" I then
almost never use them again and use it as a purely psychological weapon
when hovering about their heads.
> Another note: When somebody is great at a central-weapon-dash-unfreeze,
> they are MUCH harder to catch with the homing beam. So here's my bit of
> wisdom for those having a hard time hitting good players with it: Think
> vectoring, even when you are in the air. I have noticed that people talk
> about dash vectoring, but not jump vectoring. In other words, try and
get
> behind their dash vector, so that the homing beam is following them
> instead of trying to hit them from the side. You usually need to fire
the
> homing beam ASAP in these cases to take advantage of it. It's something
> I'm still trying to perfect.
Yeah, I always try to side-jump to get in behind the dash vector. One thing
I
find useful is manuevering them close to an obstacle or a wall and getting
the
vectored Beam in behind them. If they dash away then the beam will catch
them when they nick the obstacle. Not that they'll always (or ever) hit an
obstacle but limiting their movement options with the beam and the arena
strengthens your position and enhances Viper's manoueverability advantage.
> And as for the SLC, I almost never use it against really good
> competition. You have to make them forget about it, and that takes a
long
> time for some folks. Around here, I get punished for the SLC almost
> without fail. But once again, they have to fear it, as long as they know
> you have your 7ways, they know it's there.
Maquis