Repro Artwork?? What's happening?
vidkid
up to see if anyone knows why it's happening. Before anything is
said, I just want to say that I have no financial interest in either
site so it's not like I'm losing any money here. (in case anyone
wonders ;-)
I just made a stop over at Arcade Shop amusements:
http://www.arcadeshop.com/
I do this often and see if anything is new that I might want.(great
site, a lot of quality stuff!) And I noticed that they now have
Qbert, Centipede, and Frogger sideart available. I also noticed a dig
put in one of the listings by arcade shop against someone that they
seem to feel are competitors. (not sure I like that, seems
unnecessary?)
Then I remembered that Arcade Renovations:
http://www.arcaderenovations.com/
Had these same pieces of sideart available starting a couple of months
ago.(another great site with quality stuff!)
So I am left to wonder, "why are we repeating the development of art
work when there's so many games out there that need it?" And, "Why
does this need to be cut throat?"
I don't want to get everyone real pissy or blame one party over
another. And I certainly don't want this to escalate into a "this one
is better than that one" argument. I just wish all of the people
doing the "quality" repro work could work together and not duplicate
projects. I just don't understand why it seems to have to be a
competition when the time would be better invested in different work.
Especially since there are people out there doing repro's that aren't
up to the same standards and sucking in the general public because of
cheap prices and that they are the only ones to have it available!
So if the need is there to duplicate work, why not copy this work and
make "quality" stuff?
I have purchased from both of these sites and think they both have
excellent high quality reproductions and are a great asset to the
collecting community. I want both to stay and both to profit, while
providing an excellent source of repros for the collecting community.
I long for the day that I can go to one site and find something that
they are selling and then a couple of days later find a different
piece of artwork (not a repeat) at the other. It pains me to see that
there's duplication when the effort is needed on other projects.
As a collector I think it would be terrible if either of these parties
had to close shop. I mean how many times have I seen posts for other
sideart/CPO's that are wanted? I know people have requested Zookeeper
CPOs, Battlezone CPOs, Major Havoc CPOs, Starwars yoke overlays,
Gauntlet CPOs, Robotron CPOs and other art, but no one seems to
address these... and why?
I'm sure it's difficult to talk to one another because in business you
don't want to "tip your hand". However, given the spacing on these
latest projects they seem to have only been developed after the first
ones became available... So I'm left to wonder what is the purpose of
this other than to hurt the other site and as the consumer how do I
feel about this? (and neither are innocent on this so I'm not taking
sides, just using the latest addition as an example)
I don't know, perhaps nothing can be done. But this is my attempt to
see if there's a solution.
My one hope is that this doesn't make it worse, and that all parties
understand that as a collector, I'd rather pay $10 more and have more
variety of more "quality" art work than save the $10. (perhaps I speak
for others on this, perhaps not.... Maybe it is all about the price
difference, but I doubt it.)
BTW I am already willing to pay more and get "quality" work. If I
wasn't, I could save an additional $25 and buy some even cheaper
repro's. But if I care about quality and dealing with those that I
have before (which I do), I'm already willing to spend the extra and
get decent work.
Jim
Do I need to say it? ;-)
Can't we all just get along?.... Sorry, couldn't resist.
Josh McCormick
The people who make repros know that quality is a top concern. There are
two markets: lowest price, and best quality.
If company X comes along and produces a cheaper repro of the same
quality (that I purchased from company Y), I don't care. It doesn't
affect me, but it is good for everyone else.
If company X comes along and produces a cheaper repro of lesser quality
(than I purchased from company Y), I don't care. It doesn't affect me.
If company X comes along and produces a better quality repro which costs
more, it affects me in that I don't have a top-quality repro anymore.
But it is still good for everyone else.
Really, even if someone came along and created a crappier product at a
more expensive price, I wouldn't care.
Hey, let them dupe products. And hope a few more people jump in and dupe
products. We're the winner, folks.
James Cross
different distributors of the same product. I'm guessing that they get
the artwork from the same person who is reproducing it. If they aren't,
then you're right, it doesn't make sense that they are wasting their time
reproducing the same items.
As for arcadeshop's warning about inferior products in their listings, I
don't have a problem with that because they are protecting buyers from
purchasing what most in this ng feel is garbage. Sometimes it's just not
worth it to save a few bucks on an overlay!
In article <28873a23.02050...@posting.google.com>,
vid...@wizmail.net says...
Joey
I agree 100%.....
I've purchased items from Arcadeshop and couldn't be happier. I stand by
whatever they do and hope they continue to, at least, sell the current
items.
Since people are likely reading this thread, I'll throw out a few items
that seem like OBVIOUS potential repro parts (unless there's a legal
issue)
-Tron joystick handles
-Outrun upright monitor and control panel bezels
-Nintendo plastic pushbuttons
-Atari button cones
-Williams speaker grille material
Thanks for listening, and good luck to all of you 'quality' repro guys..
Joey
Florence, AL
joey...@hotmail.com
James Cross
cones may be reproduced in the near future. Someone who has done good
work in the past is taking a look at these.
In article <3CD88457...@athotmailat.com>,
atjoey...@athotmailat.com says...
Philippe Bourdon
It is difficult to read your post and just ignore it.... and believe me! I
wish could do.
Because by answering this and giving you my side of the story, I am only
opening
a can of worm. However, I think you have raised an important question which
to my surprise took so long to come up - "Why can't we all get along?" -
I will answer your question, at the risk of making myself look bad - but I
think
some light should be shed on some people's business ethics.
A couple of years ago, after I founded t-molding.com with my ex-partner
Rich, I
realized there was a need for good reproduction artwork. Arcadeshop was
carrying
some of Herb Silver's repros but hadn't really done anything of its own.
So, we
pursued Donkey Kong Side Art which we thought would do well (+ I had my own
machine
I wanted to restore). Apparently, we weren't the only one, but neither
Arcade Shop nor
Arcade Renovations knew what the other was doing. Releasing the art at the
same time was
purely coincidental. Steven was using a printer out on the West Coast, and
I was using a printer
out of Chicago. Then, when I realized we had duplicated efforts, I called
Steven to share my next
projects with him which were Centipede Side Art and Donkey Kong CPOs. I
just wanted to let him
know so that we wouldn't do this all over again. Problem was, Steven
wanted some as well.
So I offered him to go half with me, split the cost and go from there. He
agreed. The rest is history.
Now, I just need to bring up the fact that while the quality of my first
Dk Side Art was nice, I had been actively looking
for another printer, because the one out of Chicago had taken almost 5
months to get my DK stuff ready.
I ended up finding the same company that Steven was using. Steven never
told me who they were, it was
just another coincidence.
Anyway, to get back the story at hand, from there on, my relationship with
Steven just deteriorated. I guess
he wasn't too happy about our mild but still significant success and I can
only guess that he felt threatened by
the potential competition. I really can't say anything bad about his
feelings - I don't do this full time and perhaps
if I depended on it to put food on the table, I would feel the same.
Anyway, at that point, he talked to his printer and convinced him to send me
to one of his sister companies
out of Seattle. His printer explained that there was some type of conflict
of interests and that it was better that
way. I accepted. And went on to do more projects which curiously Steven
would come out with the following week.
After His Tempest CPOs were finally printed, I threw in the towel.
Chumblespuzz who had been doing most of my vector
art had spent a 100+ hours on recreating the stupid font and I knew there
was no way that Steven had spent that much time
on it as well. I asked Roy to do a comparison (I still have the animated
gif) and sure enough, it was Roy's art minus a
couple of minor changes, like REV A instead of REV K etc.... That's when I
packed my bags and got a new printer.
Now Steven feels he needs to go a step further and duplicate everything I
have. Good for him. Now that I am out of the picture
with the printing company, he can reproduce my art cheaply like Q*Bert and
Frogger - Why not? they have my art recreations
and dies already paid for!
His best one yet, and I have to hand it to him, is his comment on the
Centipede Side Art "Ours is not crooked like he other guys!"
I just have to laugh at that! He must have forgotten he sold 75 sets of that
crooked art to all of you before he sold out of it and
got it reprinted. And by the way, Arcade Renovations was frank enough to
admit that the centipede artwork was not quite straight which
made it very difficult to apply - that's why we had instructions made -
where were your instructions Steven?
This is a sad sad story - and I have hated it for the longest time, I even
lost sleep over it. But not anymore. I can play the game, and I
can play it better. Want to duplicate effort, I can play that game. You see,
I do this because I love it, I have a full time job and I will take the
risks he won't . I have kept quiet for 2 years and to this day, I cannot say
a bad thing about Steven's work, aside from the fact that he stole 50% of it
from me.
Only a select few know the truth - I never thought I would go public and
Jim, I wish you had never asked.
Philippe
someotherguy
for your professionalism. : (
Richard
On Wed, 08 May 2002 02:10:01 GMT, "Philippe Bourdon" <pbou...@portone.com>
wrote:
Philippe Bourdon
brian kirby
will start making them if no one else is. paint them black if you need
a black one. sell in pairs only. I have access to a milling machine
in a buddy's garage. and an autobody shop to paint them. could get
costly though.
BTW, why hasn't anyone made underlays for games that will require them,
gorf coctail, i need one. I don't care if I have to pay more because
the volume isn't there. someone please hurry up and make as much art as
possible. I need a cliff hanger control panel aswell. these games
sit till I can get one. make less of one art and charge more. why sell
the same stuff as someone else. flood the market with one kind of art
and it drives price down. make stuff no one else has and charge more.
people still need it.
my 2 cents.
Brian
James Cross
In article <ZN%B8.3709$km2.1...@news1.east.cox.net>,
pbou...@portone.com says...
big dog
Do you have proof that he stole images from you? I would say without them, then
what you say does not hold water.
Whats the real story,
Mark Capps
Chumblespuzz
I have all the original art for the pieces I've created, and when compared
to scans of Steven's stuff, it lines up *exactly*.
However, I'm not saying that Steven stole it from me. I will say that
somehow, a lot of the art I produced and sent to the printer has ended up in
Steven's lineup. I find this very upsetting considering the amount of effort
I put into this.
I believe the story Philippe has layed out is pretty much accurate.
-roy-
"big dog" <catf...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3CD8BB3E...@bellsouth.net...
Curtis Hart
thought occured to me...
When you look at the repro art sites, yes you notice many duplicated
efforts, but also these are of games that were produced in high
numbers (Defender, Centipede, Tempest, etc...) which means you have a
good chance of printing a large volume (To help drive costs down) and
be fairly assured you can sell these.
When you start getting into projects that aren't in as high a
production number, you'd have to print less (Higher costs) and the
demand isn't what it is compared to say, Tempest CPO. For example, I
would LOVE to see a Track and Filed CPO (Or even better, a custom TnF
and Hyper Sports combo CPO for us who have both boards in the same
cabinet) done but I don't think the demand high enough for the stores
to print these at a low enough cost for them to make a profit from it.
I'm sure there are a ton of repros everyone would love to see (For me,
it would be the mentioned TnF and Pheonix mini CPO - plus Tron stuff -
but that's another thread in itself :) but I also realize while some
others would want the same as I do, it probably can't justify the
costs for these. Sure, people post "I'm makeing XXX art, who would be
interested?" and many people reply with a resounding "Yes" but after
it's made, how many of those people actually follow through and
purchase these? I'm sure it's not 100%
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a waste of resource to duplicate
projects, but I can also understand why different stores do this
because they have a better chance of profits with this.
Oh, and BTW, I'd still love for these stores to repro arcade posters
still :)
-Curtis
Josh McCormick
> Can of worms indeed! That's some pretty disturbing stuff. :(
No comment, other than to requote a line that left me wondering.
vidkid
read a few of the responses. Are people really thinking about their
answers and following them to the eventual outcome?
First off, no we shouldn't be hoping that others want to jump in and
get in a big price war over repro's. That does nothing for the
community at large! If you support that kind of practice it will end
up like Microsoft... Drive the others out of business with cheapo
prices and then jack them up after the others have failed! Healthy
competition is fine especially if someone is way out of line on price.
Otherwise, we aren't winners, we'll be losers...... or have you not
looked at the price of Windows lately?(or the price of a Ms Pac CPO?)
As for protecting buyers from garbage, well, that's not going to work.
Because if someone wants to do it on the cheap they're going to buy
from someone that's got a poor reputation (because they don't know it
or don't care) but has it available and far cheaper than either of
these places have it for. (man this is hard to say when you don't
want to mention the name of the other business. ;-)
So yes, explain the virtues of your product by saying "professionally
silk-screened on X mil lexan. Application easily done using the
windex method", not "Ours ain't printed on an inkjet and laminated
like our competitors and theirs will run and look crappy." Is it the
truth, possibly, is the right way to sell... well maybe if your in
politics.
And um Richard, "professionalism" was kind of at the heart of my
message and it seems strange to question it from one and not the other
given this information.
Even without the email I had kind of wondered if something like this
wasn't happening based on timing.(the work was very closely timed
which on vector drawing seems highly unlikely)
If it's actually using someone else's work, that really sucks. But
even if someone just used your previous work to build it, it would not
be real "professional" in my opinion.
How would you feel if you designed a board to make a game a
multigame..... You did all the work, spent 6 months developing a menu
system, bug testing it, made some prototypes, then spent your own
money to produce it (start up costs are high) and sold a few. Then
someone you sold it to, copied it, and because they had better
connections had it reproduced in a week and sold it at a discounted
price just to screw you over? I think you'd have a different view of
this issue then.
This past weekend I was at the Allentown pinball show and was totally
amazed at what I considered some of the best "professionalism" I've
ever seen!!
Steve Young had a table right across from Don and they were kind of
working together!!(they are different distributors of repro parts)
Apparently Steve and Don had talked about repro parts they were
bringing to the show and didn't bring what the other was bringing
because they didn't want to hurt the other. It was truly a great show
of "professionalism"
I ended up buying stuff from both since I needed quite a few parts and
they were both VERY good about sending me to the other for the parts
that they had not brought. One part I needed was a repro coin door
for my Gottlieb pinball(mine is rusted to heck and someone painted
it...ugh!), and Steve told me when I asked, "Don's got those over
there" and he sent me over!!!!!! He could have just as well said,
"Well I have them, but didn't bring them so I'll cut you a deal and
mail it after the show"... But he didn't!! That's professionalism!!
So I guess I had hoped that there were joint efforts going on and
didn't understand the price cutting to sell for a few bucks less
(which was the point of the message) It's too bad it's not working
that way, when it could be.
All I can hope now is that perhaps it will stop and that they can
develop projects separately and benefit more of us by having more
quality work that is different. Especially since neither of these
parties have had poor quality artwork and both provide a wonderful
resource. There's no winners if you have just one person dealing the
parts.
Take for example twobits conquest of the Ms Pac graphics. I bought my
overlay for $32 from Bob Roberts. Right after they got total control
of the parts they rocketed the price up to $55 for the overlays!
So yes, you want a competitor there to keep you honest. If your
trying to sell a reproduced Star Trek CPO and you want to charge
$150... Well then there's room for someone to redo your work and then
sell if for the $40-$50 it should probably draw. So that keeps you
honest and everyone wins. But price cutting by a few bucks to just
stick it to the other isn't professionalism or good for collectors.
Again, sorry for bringing it up, but it explains a lot.
Jim
someotherguy <someotherguy@SPAM_SUCKSsomeotherplace.com> wrote in message news:<37C0C84CB21AD2F5.9D3C29A6...@lp.airnews.net>...
Jason Kratz
measurement and duplication in Illustrator followed by getting the printing
set up? I'd be curious to know the details.
someotherguy
than is there. Accusations were levied without proof. That is
unprofessional. Regardless of what is going on behind the scenes, we
are in poor positions to speculate as to the reality.
Richard
Bob
news:fb109368.02050...@posting.google.com:
> When you start getting into projects that aren't in as high a
> production number, you'd have to print less (Higher costs) and the
> demand isn't what it is compared to say, Tempest CPO. For example, I
> would LOVE to see a Track and Filed CPO (Or even better, a custom TnF
> and Hyper Sports combo CPO for us who have both boards in the same
> cabinet) done but I don't think the demand high enough for the stores
> to print these at a low enough cost for them to make a profit from it.
If a person has a half decent original to work from it is pretty straight
forward to one-off this sort of thing. You just scan it, match the fonts,
and recreate the art. Depending on the specifics, it can get pretty
tedious. A couple hours for something basic, maybe 10 hrs for something
like a Robotron Bezel. Without a scan, a good photo and a few measurements
will suffice.
Big prints on sticky media are probably around $20 a square foot.
If people are really willing to pay for the work, it's the sort of thing I
love to do.
Bob
Steve Rakoczy
> for your professionalism. : (
>
> Richard
Richard,
I don't understand your post about Philippe's post not speaking well
about his professionalism. I thought he was very careful to not be
inflammatory and tried present the facts as unemotionally as he could.
I think he did a far better job than most of us would have done. His
statements were substantiated by Chumblespuzz, so at least one
reasonable source confirms that what he is saying is truthful.
I mat be battling semantics here, but I don't think I would consider
sharing facts unprofessional. In Philippe's position I would be
frustrated also and want to let people know what was going on.
Just my opinion. YMMV.
Steve
Kerry Stair
Steven ??
--
Kerry Stair
Mantis Amusements
www.mantisamusements.com
"Philippe Bourdon" <pbou...@portone.com> wrote in message
news:H60C8.4131$km2.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
brian kirby
This art was copyrighted at one time. you did not see nintendo selling atari art.
or atari selling williams art.
point being, who cares who makes it. as long as it is quality. so there is a
market for it now. what if somebody bought the copyrights to produce the art.
then, no one but that company could make it. others could be sued.
It is the same as me taking a book. making a copy of it, and calling it mine. I
did not make that book. I am just taking credit for it. now the market is lax.
nobody is going to prosecute. just wait till it makes millions though. then
things change.
look at moon patrol boards. in the early 80's there were lots of bootlegs of
these boards. to own or operate one, meant heavy penalties. local people here were
fined as much as $160,000 dollars. why, williams was big, had money, wanted
competition squashed. tried to scare people out of buying bootleg stuff.
now nobody cares. old stuff is not a market like it was when it was new. Try to
make some artwork for new games and see what happens to you though.
art is free game right now, no one persuing law suits yet.. If I desided tomorrow
to go to my buddy's shop (has over million worth of printing equipment, most
profitable printer in this area ) I too could get into the art work craze. I may
have to because of lack of availability of the art I need.
who cares who sells what. people stab people in the back all the time. your best
friend may turn out to be your worst enemy because of money. (or a girl, hate when
that happens )
just make quality art, sell it. copyright it and sue if you don't want people to
copy it. otherwise there will be many more making it. plan and simple.
If someone can make the same for less, peolpe will go pay less. what is stopping
you from copying every kind of are these people sell, find a printer to make it for
less, and sell the same product cheaper. (they can be exact copies due to no
copyright being enforced)
not like an ab roller (10 slightly different versions of the same thing) there is
copyright in place here. not on art.
so make as much as any one wants. till the day when someone comes forward and says
stop or i'll sue and can back it up.
don't get me wrong, copying others work is unethical, and cheating, and usually a
wicked man is condemed by his one chains. so who cares. let God sort them out.
what smells like roses today, may well stink tomorrow.
but I need art, so I don't care who I buy from as long as it is quality.
my 2 cents, or should I say dollar :)
Brian
brian kirby
want to see art for games I have that no one will reporduce. (where is a darn
gorf underlay when you need one. ) don't make me start producing art.
holy lack of needed art batman.
Brian
James Cross
the artwork, vectorizing it, having all sorts of printing prep work done,
and printing it, then I would agree with you. But, if someone does all
these things and then another entity comes along and is able to churn out
the same quality artwork with no work or cost to them because they have
an inappropriate relationship with a printer, then that's something that
could hurt us all in the end.
The way I understand things, Roy spends a *lot* of time vectorizing these
art files (in the hundreds of hours). It's not like he just scanned it in
to Photoshop, cleaned up a couple of rough edges and emailed it to
Philippe. Philippe then undoubtedly spent a *lot* of money having the
artwork printed. Since your friend is in the business, ask him how much
prep work factors in to a low quantity project like this. It is a very
high percentage.
Think about it... if Philippe is losing money on artwork for a high
volume game like Centipede, what is going to motivate him to make it for
a less abundant game like the Gorf cocktail that you're requesting art
for?
I am all for competition but it should be fair. Hopefully, Steven will
respond to the allegations so we can get a more complete picture of the
situation.
In article <3CD96C6C...@accesscomm.ca>, brian...@accesscomm.ca
says...
Jason Kratz
"Bob" <jw...@no.spm.bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Xns92087D8EF7784...@65.82.44.7...
> curti...@ev1.net (Curtis Hart) wrote in
> news:fb109368.02050...@posting.google.com:
>
> > When you start getting into projects that aren't in as high a
> > production number, you'd have to print less (Higher costs) and the
> > demand isn't what it is compared to say, Tempest CPO. For example, I
> > would LOVE to see a Track and Filed CPO (Or even better, a custom TnF
> > and Hyper Sports combo CPO for us who have both boards in the same
> > cabinet) done but I don't think the demand high enough for the stores
> > to print these at a low enough cost for them to make a profit from it.
>
> If a person has a half decent original to work from it is pretty straight
> forward to one-off this sort of thing. You just scan it, match the fonts,
> and recreate the art. Depending on the specifics, it can get pretty
> tedious. A couple hours for something basic, maybe 10 hrs for something
> like a Robotron Bezel. Without a scan, a good photo and a few measurements
> will suffice.
Scan it with what? Is there such a thing as a large format scanner to get a
whole CPO in one scan? I'd be curious to know where such a thing can be
found.
Joey
I'll be your best friend!
"brian kirby" <brian...@accesscomm.ca> wrote in message
news:3CD96EB7...@accesscomm.ca...
ChicagoGameComp
>whole CPO in one scan? I'd be curious to know where such a thing can be
>found.<
There are some large scanners, but another option would be to piece scans
together.
Dan
brian kirby
with others.
the buddy of mine that owns the print shop is a good friend. not to mention money is
no object to him. he has offered to help me out in anyway that he can. (short of
giving me money, :) ) Have to earn stuff. can't sit with hand out.
I could use his facilities and would have to do a lot of the work myself. (i can
learn anything, and know a lot of skilled people that help out)
i don't sleep(i do but not much, stayed awake for 4 1/2 days a few times) so that
would be costly only for my hours involved at first. I am short of time and have too
many projects on the go as it is. trying to stick to one thing. I am self
employeed so time is not so much of an issue for me other than all I have taken on.
this is the problem. He is a very, very religious man. an evangelist. he would
probabley frown upon copying stuff for profit. art work for myself, I may be able to
do it.
this is a form of stealing unless the original makers of the art gave me permission
to do so. I don't think anyone will ever get that permission unless they could
afford it.
I can't. so I will probably never make art work for sale unless someone can show me
a loop hole in the legal system to avoid future copyright infringment or being sued.
even still, I don't think my buddy would do it. (unless I had it in writing)
:( oh well.
Brian
BTW that was kind of taken out of context. (see below)
stealing someone's hard work or taking credit for it is wrong by all means . And it
will not only hurt everyone in the group, but eventially the people doing it
illegally.
best case for them, they will be asked to stop. lawsuits are expensive. unless the
person doing it is making millions a year, they won't get sued.
*I do not condone this persons actions or what is going on here between these
people(art makers), if that is what I sounded like I am sorry.
but read the whole thing.
people can get away with it now, so no one can complain.
if someone is working hard to make money by ILLEGALLY making art, both parties lose.
so I have no sympathy for anyone on this matter. otherthan I know what it is like
when someone else takes credit for my hard work. look at the whole picture.
** you can't expect good things to happen if you are in the wrong to begin with. **
there is copyrights being broken.
Now if these people have the permission from atari, midway,etc. , or whoever bought
their copyrights, all the power to them.. I don't think they do though.
I could care less, because I know artwork is an asset to the collecting community.
people will always buy it as long as it is available. there is a definite need for
it.
If I didn't have morals, I would make it myself and make a career out of it. (or if I
could afford to purchase permission.)
and what is "fair" , stealing in the first place?
egh.
brian kirby
Brian
James Cross
and me are "immoral", yet you are asking them to produce various new
items such as cocktail underlays. Stealing is immoral but asking someone
else to steal is not? Is it not immoral if it benefits you in some way?
Wouldn't the purchasing of "stolen" sideart and control panel overlays be
immoral? If that's not immoral then just think of the stolen things you
can buy for cheap... cars, laptops, stereos... and not feel guilty about
it.
In article <3CD9B8D5...@accesscomm.ca>, brian...@accesscomm.ca
says...
Steven Gregory
>
> It is difficult to read your post and just ignore it.... and believe me! I
> wish could do.
> Because by answering this and giving you my side of the story, I am only
> opening
> a can of worm. However, I think you have raised an important question which
> to my surprise took so long to come up - "Why can't we all get along?" -
> I will answer your question, at the risk of making myself look bad - but I
> think
> some light should be shed on some people's business ethics.
>
> A couple of years ago, after I founded t-molding.com with my ex-partner
> Rich, I
> realized there was a need for good reproduction artwork. Arcadeshop was
> carrying
> some of Herb Silver's repros but hadn't really done anything of its own.
Not true, we've made quite a few items.
I noticed things were appearing at the same time and questioned my
printer about this. To this day I'm convinced *someone* on the inside
was conspiring, but I was not involved.
>
> After His Tempest CPOs were finally printed, I threw in the towel.
> Chumblespuzz who had been doing most of my vector
> art had spent a 100+ hours on recreating the stupid font and I knew there
> was no way that Steven had spent that much time
> on it as well. I asked Roy to do a comparison (I still have the animated
> gif) and sure enough, it was Roy's art minus a
> couple of minor changes, like REV A instead of REV K etc.... That's when I
> packed my bags and got a new printer.
If you have taken a look at Chad Schell page comparing the two overlays
you will see several variations. I recall Roy saying he took features
from several revisions to make his. Ours was produced from an NOS CPO
which I sent to our printer. This all happened after the switch to the
other printer.
>
> Now Steven feels he needs to go a step further and duplicate everything I
> have. Good for him. Now that I am out of the picture
> with the printing company, he can reproduce my art cheaply like Q*Bert and
> Frogger - Why not? they have my art recreations
> and dies already paid for!
The Qbert and Frogger art I have came from a trade through Vic.
>
> His best one yet, and I have to hand it to him, is his comment on the
> Centipede Side Art "Ours is not crooked like he other guys!"
> I just have to laugh at that! He must have forgotten he sold 75 sets of that
> crooked art to all of you before he sold out of it and
> got it reprinted. And by the way, Arcade Renovations was frank enough to
> admit that the centipede artwork was not quite straight which
> made it very difficult to apply - that's why we had instructions made -
> where were your instructions Steven?
I gave instructions over the phone....
>
> This is a sad sad story - and I have hated it for the longest time, I even
> lost sleep over it. But not anymore. I can play the game, and I
> can play it better. Want to duplicate effort, I can play that game. You see,
> I do this because I love it, I have a full time job and I will take the
> risks he won't . I have kept quiet for 2 years and to this day, I cannot say
> a bad thing about Steven's work, aside from the fact that he stole 50% of it
> from me.
> Only a select few know the truth - I never thought I would go public and
> Jim, I wish you had never asked.
I don't see how you think I stole 50% of you art. How do you think
this?
Steven Gregory
www.arcadeshop.com
Steven Gregory
@cademo.com says...
> I do.
>
> I have all the original art for the pieces I've created, and when compared
> to scans of Steven's stuff, it lines up *exactly*.
>
> However, I'm not saying that Steven stole it from me. I will say that
> somehow, a lot of the art I produced and sent to the printer has ended up in
> Steven's lineup. I find this very upsetting considering the amount of effort
> I put into this.
>
> I believe the story Philippe has layed out is pretty much accurate.
>
> -roy-
>
>
If the artwork is done right it should all line up. As far as you
reproducing artwork, I was never aware of you working on anything
until after the fact. I can't be expected to know what someone is
working on in secretly or publicly.
I can say the last time I did share information with someone about
things I was working on, they produced the same things....
Philippe Bourdon
Let's see, according to my notes, Vic bought 4
sets of Frogger and 6 sets of Q*Bert. Which
means, if he traded his entire stock to you, you have
4 sets of Frogger and 5 sets of Q*Bert.
Do you mean to say that this much inventory is enough to announce
these items as new products? Won't you be sold out after like, a month?
And as far as your theory about "If the artwork is done right it should all
line up" -
That's just not so and especially from 2 different revision pieces. Two
pieces of artwork
from the same production run will be the same, but not from a different
production run -
And I only mentioned the "font" being plagerized - which was the real time
consuming part of
the recreation. Nothing else.
Chumblespuzz
extremely high-res scans of an original cpo, not every character could be
made out perfectly. All that I gained zooming in beyond a certain point was
that I could see the texture of the original material more clearly.
So, to get some of the detail for some of the small characters I had to take
some artistic liberty and create the detail in the spirit of what I believed
the font would have been drawn like originally. These details are so small
that they are practically unnoticeable when viewed normally.
So, if your suggestion is that your artists took the *exact* same artistic
liberties as I did, I would find that difficult to believe. But, for some
reason, when I line up a scan of my CPO art to a scan of your CPOs, the font
lines up *exactly*. If anybody would like to see this, check out:
http://cademo.com/arcade/images/Tempest_Test1.gif
(note: as this was done with real scans of both CPOs, the alignment of the
scans is not perfect. However, I think it's close enough to make my point.)
This argument goes for the CPO art as well, not only for Tempest but for
others you have as well. I have the original vector art files as well as the
TTF font files that I've made. I can identify subtle changes I've made in
each that make them *slightly* different from the originals - can you?
I don't want to get into a battle over this. I've held back since the first
time it happened. I simply take it as a lesson learned. I do have proof to
corroborate what I've stated, but I have nothing to gain (or lose) in
carrying this any further.
-roy-
"Steven Gregory" <sgre...@arcadeshop.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1743a73c1...@news.surfsouth.com...
Steven Gregory
pbou...@portone.com says...
> You traded with Vic for Q*Bert and Frogger? Good one!
> Let's see, according to my notes, Vic bought 4
> sets of Frogger and 6 sets of Q*Bert. Which
> means, if he traded his entire stock to you, you have
> 4 sets of Frogger and 5 sets of Q*Bert.
Yes, so what is your point? I got the art from Vic, which
in turn came from you. I have only sold one or two sets of
each.
>
> Do you mean to say that this much inventory is enough to announce
> these items as new products? Won't you be sold out after like, a month?
That is the plan.
>
> And as far as your theory about "If the artwork is done right it should all
> line up" -
> That's just not so and especially from 2 different revision pieces. Two
> pieces of artwork
> from the same production run will be the same, but not from a different
> production run -
>
> And I only mentioned the "font" being plagerized - which was the real time
> consuming part of
> the recreation. Nothing else.
>
All I can tell you is that I provided my printer with an NOS Tempest
CPO. They where paid to create the art, dies and print the cpos. If
your (roy's) art was used it was without my knowledge. I think Doug
might address this issue himself.
Steven Gregory
www.arcadeshop.com
Steven Gregory
@cademo.com says...
> I hand-crafted the Tempest font from scratch. Even at extreme zooms on
> extremely high-res scans of an original cpo, not every character could be
> made out perfectly. All that I gained zooming in beyond a certain point was
> that I could see the texture of the original material more clearly.
>
> So, to get some of the detail for some of the small characters I had to take
> some artistic liberty and create the detail in the spirit of what I believed
> the font would have been drawn like originally. These details are so small
> that they are practically unnoticeable when viewed normally.
>
> So, if your suggestion is that your artists took the *exact* same artistic
> liberties as I did, I would find that difficult to believe. But, for some
> reason, when I line up a scan of my CPO art to a scan of your CPOs, the font
> lines up *exactly*. If anybody would like to see this, check out:
>
> http://cademo.com/arcade/images/Tempest_Test1.gif
>
> (note: as this was done with real scans of both CPOs, the alignment of the
> scans is not perfect. However, I think it's close enough to make my point.)
>
> This argument goes for the CPO art as well, not only for Tempest but for
> others you have as well. I have the original vector art files as well as the
> TTF font files that I've made. I can identify subtle changes I've made in
> each that make them *slightly* different from the originals - can you?
>
> I don't want to get into a battle over this. I've held back since the first
> time it happened. I simply take it as a lesson learned. I do have proof to
> corroborate what I've stated, but I have nothing to gain (or lose) in
> carrying this any further.
>
> -roy-
>
>
I see your point. I think its time we call out the printer on this....
Scott Caldwell
CPO scanned with one (used it to create a shadow
image that was used to create a vector file). The
one I used was a "drum-roller" scanner, which
means it feeds the "artwork" in like a photocopier
does and scans it as it goes by the "eye". Not as
accurate in my opinion, but perfect for doing the
vector file the way I did.
Scott C.
brian kirby
guess I will look into making art for a profit. :)
lol.
simply, people should not complain about people stealing their work when they are stealing
themselves. that about sums up what I was getting at.
Brian
brian kirby
Good deals. :) cell phone conversations keep her occupied .
I don't feel guilty. I don't know if it was hot. guy was going down the street trying to
use it, it had no antenna and he obviously never knew what he was doing, so I assume it
was never his. can't let a deal like that slip away though.
Brian
Bret Pehrson
--
Bret Pehrson
http://www.vaps.org/members/nv/br...@classicade.com.html
mailto:br...@classicade.com
NOSPAM
Bret Pehrson
services).
If they hassle you about the scan, tell them it is for fair use archival
purposes.
--
vidkid
First off, your "profit" will probably not be that great especially
when you consider the amount of time it takes to do a project like
these. If your time invested is zero, then you can talk "profit"
otherwise you'll lose money.
Yes, you could just scan the art, and then have it printed but it's
going to look like crap. To have nice art, like the quality we're
talking about, you have to scan it, then vector it. Which means going
into a program like Illustrator and blowing the art up to like 300%
and HAND drawing the lines that make everything!! Think of a Tempest
CPO for example. Imagine all that by hand. Now think of something
with curves... It's mind boggling.
If done right reproduction art work takes probably 50+ hours for
something like side art. Now imagine you had to pay someone to do
that at the going rate of at least $20 an hour for a decent Graphic
artist to duplicate the work.(on the side because a company would kill
you on the cost!) So it's a labor of love, not profit when done
right.
So for you to claim stealing is Ok since it was already stolen isn't
true. You're stealing someone's time and effort. My example before
was this:
How would you feel if you designed a board to make a game a
multigame..... You did all the work, spent 6 months developing a menu
system, bug testing it, made some prototypes, then spent your own
money to produce it (start up costs are high) and sold a few. Then
someone you sold it to, copied it, and because they had better
connections had it reproduced in a week and sold it at a discounted
price just to screw you over?
Was the multigame stolen, well, yes and no. The multigame is new, but
the games are not. It's a weird thing on the legality, but either way
it's the wrong way to do business.
Heck, I'm still aghast at Windows since they stole the Mac interface!!
Just because it's a recycle bin and not a trash can makes no
difference. So when one of the largest companies there is can STEAL
(and yes they stole the interface) from another, how can we respect
any copyright laws? (Sorry my rant for the day. ;-) Windows just
claimed to have written the code and it may have had the same "look
and feel" but was different......NOT!!!!
So isn't that exactly what someone doing repro's is doing? (If they
are doing them right and redrawing them all using vector plotting?)
If they scan the art and reprint it doing a crappy job, it is outright
stealing. But if it's traced by hand and they invest all the work,
well, sounds the same to me as Windows......"look and feel" isn't
copyrighted according to windows. Hmm, why isn't that true I wonder??
Now if someone uses that work which was done by another, well we're
back to stealing. So your response shows very little thought behind
it.
I guess it's a "haven't been in those shoes before" kind of case, and
trust me you don't ever want to be. So simply put, people that
haven't been in a position shouldn't make judgments about those that
have.
Jim
brian kirby <brian...@accesscomm.ca> wrote in message news:<3CDA23A6...@accesscomm.ca>...
Bob
>
> "Bob" <jw...@no.spm.bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns92087D8EF7784...@65.82.44.7...
>> curti...@ev1.net (Curtis Hart) wrote in
>> news:fb109368.02050...@posting.google.com:
>>
>
> Scan it with what? Is there such a thing as a large format scanner to
> get a whole CPO in one scan? I'd be curious to know where such a
> thing can be found.
>
>
For a CPO I would use the 12x17 scanner on my desk. It would require 2
scans, which is trivial. I routinely scan maps and things in as many as 4
sections, wich takes a bit more work, but it works
For something really big like sideart, there are large format scanners
that can scan documents 52 inches wide. It costs a couple dollars per
scan to get them done. I think the one I have used in the past is only
B&W, but for this application it wouldn't matter.
But like I said, a decent photo and and some good measurements would
suffice.
Bob
Jason Kratz
"Scott Caldwell" <scaldwel...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:3CD9678C...@excite.com...
> These large format scanners do exist, and I had a
> CPO scanned with one (used it to create a shadow
> image that was used to create a vector file). The
> one I used was a "drum-roller" scanner, which
> means it feeds the "artwork" in like a photocopier
> does and scans it as it goes by the "eye". Not as
> accurate in my opinion, but perfect for doing the
> vector file the way I did.
>
> Scott C.
>
Thanks for the reply Scott.
Jason Kratz
check it out. Actually the scan would be for archival purposes. I have no
desire to spend the time to start reproing artwork ;)
"Bret Pehrson" <br...@classicade.com> wrote in message
news:3CDA9144...@classicade.com...
Bob
> Jason Kratz wrote:
>
>> Out of curiosity how does one go about reproducing artwork? lots of
>> measurement and duplication in Illustrator followed by getting the
>> printing set up? I'd be curious to know the details.
>
If you can scan the original, you start with that. Load it into
Illustrator. It is just a guide. Then you match the fonts and create all
the text. Then duplicate all the vectors. Print it to a .pdf file and get
it made. A wacom tablet is a must. If the original is pretty good and the
scanner is good, then you could just touch it up in Photoshop. If the
original has artwork (photos, rather than graphics) it's a whole other
level of difficulty.
Color matching is difficult (read "black art"). The more particular the
demands of the client, the more difficult matching can be. There are some
colors of ink that just can't be matched by 4 color process.
As far as the actual printing, if you're just doing one, then you work
with someone who has a large format printer, who can print onto whatever
media the client wants. Water resistan inks on self adhesive vinyl for an
overlay, or just about anything for an underlay.
For large scale printing, you get dies cut and specify inks. After 9-11
my boss got American flags produced. The 3 dies (red, white clear) cost
about $400 total. Distributed over the production run of 50,000 units,
it's not much. If you're just doing one, you would have to want it
really, really bad.
Bob
vidkid
crappy for bringing it up now.
So all hard feelings aside, and I can tell there are a few and
understand how each of you could feel peeved. My original point was
that price undercutting to make the other look bad isn't really the
right way to do business is it?
Take my example of Don and Steve Young at the pinball show. They had
the same items, same price, same quality and both survive. They
promote one another.. ....at least when in the same room. Now, I'm
sure that's a step down the road, but not an impossible one. ;-)
There is a vast market out there of video game owners and only a
fraction of them use the newsgroup or even know about it. So your
potential customer base is what needs to be expanded, not gouging each
other for the few here that already respect your quality. Go after
those poor saps that just got some crappy Gauntlet overlays on ebay or
something like that perhaps?
Sure if one person is WAY out of line like $150 for a CPO and you
think you can have it made for $50 it's worth doing, but is it worth
redoing all the time and effort for $5, $10, $15, or $20? Not sure
what the price point is, but when you count in development costs,
there's got to be a number.
So again, sorry to have mentioned it. I was hoping to help change
what was being done and have different artwork made, not piss everyone
off and start anything. But I can see that backfired in true Jim
form.
But perhaps it's something we can move forward from? I hope? You're
both great companies to deal with and both have great products.... It
would be great to get over this.
Jim
ChicagoGameComp
One could argue that Apple stole the same idea from IBM.
Dan
Adam Dare
come up with that idea or the mouse. The GUI and mouse were come up with by
the same company which didn't capitalize on it. The both stole the
interface, so no one in either camp can get high and mighty about where the
GUI came from. The biggest things that I can see is that Apple has the
coolest looking cabinets and Microsoft is the most prolific.
Adam
"ChicagoGameComp" <chicago...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020509141226...@mb-mj.aol.com...
Mark C. Spaeth
:>Heck, I'm still aghast at Windows since they stole the Mac interface!!<
: One could argue that Apple stole the same idea from IBM.
No, apple stole windows (and the mouse) from Xerox PARC, not IBM.
--
Mark Spaeth msp...@mtl.mit.edu
50 Vassar St., #38.265 msp...@mit.edu
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 452-2354 http://rgvac.978.org/~mspaeth
brian kirby
I don't have to pay someone to do it, I do it myself. I have access to facilities for FREE. don't
sleep, remember, have one done in a few weeks. hours, what are hours. If I draw myself, guess what,
cut costs down because I don't have to pay someone $20-30 an hour to do it. so ha. huge profit. my
time is not money. I don't have family to look after, nor do I have a full time job, other than what
I make for myself. As for my artistic abilities to draw. well, I have won awards. my girl friend is
an art teacher, and my sister is in computer graphic design.
as for your example with circuit boards, different all together. (unless the board is identical, so,
change board slightly, change menu slightly, etc.) as for windows, smart business. dog eat dog
world. people do it all the time under copyright laws. It's legal. why there are so many products on
the market that are the same thing, do the same thing, but are called something different.
same product, slightly different. like my ab roller example. they all do the same thing, all
slightly different. still not technically "stealing" But I am sure that the other people making them
did not get the idea till they saw the first one on the market. (windows)
. with no copyrights in place(for art), it is all fair game. I could buy one of every overlay, and
make them all and sell them. exactly the same. I am not going to bother, but still, what is stopping
the next guy. thats like saying, hey pal you can't make jamma adapters for boards because I thought
of that first. If I make art exactly the same and sell it for 1/2 the price, what are you going to
do, sue? It is unethical, but so is selling stuff on e-bay, and not living up to expectations of
description.
so what if I copy someone elses, they are copying it in the first place. unless they have permission
from the original manufacturer, it IS stealing. so justify it anyway you want to. It is still a
forgery of the original, that they did not have permission for in the first place.
*If they do have permission, it is then at this point only, not stealing. so they had to goto a
little extra work to make it look original. this is still stealing. forgery of the original *
If microsoft did a bad thing, why are they where they are? (over and above mac)
they took a good idea and made it better. so what. that is business.
If I don't make art, someone else will. it is inevitable. would be harder for me to steal someone's
work because I am not using same printer, but still. If you are trying to sway me off of making art,
this just pisses me off and I will climb in those shoes.
cut all corners I can.
As for menu system for multi williams, that is new technology, sort of. If I remember right, are you
not supposed to own the original board to have a copy of those roms. ? like the people that buy
these kits own all the different original rom boards. same goes for double donkey kong. does every
person that owns a double kong, own both boards, not bloody likely. This is such a grey area.
I'll go on all day. no thought put in, read the other posts. you opened this can of worms, try and
close it, you can't.
If your pissed off about windows thing, than go take a business class. happens all the time.
James Cross
business world but we'd like to think that the arcade community is above
that. After all, many people who are doing the work are doing it for the
love of the games and not profit. If they get screwed over after all
their hard work, why would they do it again? I'm not naive. I understand
that people will do shitty things. But a lot of people in this community
have bent over backwards to help others with little or no gain for
themselves. If it comes to light that a vendor has been employing nasty,
unfair tactics in order to crush a competitor, then a lot of us will be
unhappy with that. If you think business is business and you don't care
about their tactics, then fine, go on supporting them. If you think
Microsoft is using unfair tactics and decide not to support them in the
future, it obviously won't sway them a bit but if many people are turned
off by a vendor in this business, it can ruin them. That's why we're not
just looking at these allegations as a typical business strategy as you
are.
In article <3CDAC341...@accesscomm.ca>, brian...@accesscomm.ca
says...
Smackey Two-Tongues
stole the windows interface and mouse control from Xerox who
originally invented the whole thing back in the 1960's.
Microsoft may be no angel but I am glad that Apple never had that much
power. If they became a monopoly we would be forced to buy dayglo
orange computers for 10x the price because all hardware would be
proprietary ... Microsoft is by far "the lesser of two evils" ... and
don't even get me started on Oracle or SUN who have hinted at some not
so nice things themselves ....
On 9 May 2002 08:28:38 -0700, vid...@wizmail.net (vidkid) wrote:
<snip>
Jeff Culverhouse
ChicagoGameComp
>No, apple stole windows (and the mouse) from Xerox PARC, not IBM.<
My error... it was indeed Xerox.
Dan
Jason Kratz
<Smackey Two-Tongues> wrote in message
news:qellduk7ubm4rhc05...@4ax.com...
> Off topic but I wouldn't be pointing any fingers a Microsoft. Apple
> stole the windows interface and mouse control from Xerox who
> originally invented the whole thing back in the 1960's.
>
> Microsoft may be no angel but I am glad that Apple never had that much
> power. If they became a monopoly we would be forced to buy dayglo
> orange computers for 10x the price because all hardware would be
> proprietary ... Microsoft is by far "the lesser of two evils" ... and
> don't even get me started on Oracle or SUN who have hinted at some not
> so nice things themselves ....
>
While I agree that none of these companies are angels I think you are
delusional if you think that Microsoft is the "lesser of two evils" (between
MS and Apple). Apple hasn't pulled even half the shit Microshaft has.
And....if the situation were reversed most likely the machines would cost as
much because they'd have a much bigger market. Hell....there isnt anything
keeping clones from being made *now* afaik.
Rich Marquette
just open a Mac case you had to buy the special tool from
Apple (the only source).
As to Mac Clones, yes there was such a thing for a while, a company
called power computing was producing them under an agreement from
apple. They were faster, cheaper and out selling the apples.
Shortly after one of the original Apple owners got back into Apple
the agreement to make clones wasn't renewed. So I wouldn't
count on any apple clones any time soon.
big dog
Later,
Mark Capps
James Cross
(kidding guys, I got off topic too)
In article <3CDB00B2...@bellsouth.net>, catf...@bellsouth.net
says...
Smackey Two-Tongues
when it came to crushing any competition and making the hardware
upgrades user friendly .....
If Van Halen and David Bowie didn't ask for so much money at the US
Festival ... the world might have been a different place ... :)
On Thu, 09 May 2002 18:55:12 -0400, Rich Marquette <rma...@dca.net>
wrote:
PorkTornado
For those that discount apple and have not even looked at them beyond
noticing the pretty cases of late should stop putting them down and take
another look at what they are made of today.. Check the Unix based OS
first, then look at compliance with open standards, then look at value per
dollar for a like machine in the wintel world.. you'll see that this
mystical cost gap is really not truly there after all. Then you argue
software.. Well, tell me a GOOD MAINSTREAM app that's not available for the
mac... go ahead :)
/b
in article aberu8$fe5$1...@flood.xnet.com, Jason Kratz at e...@joes.com wrote on
5/9/02 6:05 PM:
Iain Odlin
wrote:
>All I can tell you is that I provided my printer with an NOS Tempest
>CPO. They where paid to create the art, dies and print the cpos. If
>your (roy's) art was used it was without my knowledge. I think Doug
>might address this issue himself.
This is so likely its sickening.
---
Dave sat there looking at the item on his desk. "Why me?" he groaned.
It wasn't that it was a particularly large item he was being asked to make
exact copies of. It was just that the graphics on a "Tempest" video game's
control panel were so intricate. And it has words on it. Lots of words.
That all have to look correct...
This was going to take weeks.
Glumly, he picked the overlay up from his desk and headed for the scanner on
the other side of the room to get started.
Looking up from his own computer as Dave walked by, George caught sight of the
colorful plastic sheet. "Tempest? I remember that game," he exclaimed.
"That was so cool! I used to have blisters from that spinner-thing, man!"
Dave glared at George. "Yeah, well you don't have to draw this whole damn
thing."
Wincing sympathetically, George admitted, "Yeah... I suppose not," and turned
back to his computer to open up the file for his own next project.
George swallowed reflexively three or four times and his heart skipped a beat
when the screen displayed the graphic file he was being asked to print several
hundred copies of.
"Dave," he said, fighting desperately to control an almost hysterical giggle
trying to escape his mouth, "you are never going to believe this.
"And you are _so_ going to owe me!"
The battle lost, George's laughter filled the workroom.
---
-Iain
vidkid
rant obviously... excuse the snipping.
<snip>
> I don't have to pay someone to do it, I do it myself. I have access to facilities for FREE. don't
> sleep, remember, have one done in a few weeks. hours, what are hours. If I draw myself, guess what,
> cut costs down because I don't have to pay someone $20-30 an hour to do it. so ha. huge profit. my
> time is not money. I don't have family to look after, nor do I have a full time job, other than what
> I make for myself. As for my artistic abilities to draw. well, I have won awards. my girl friend is
> an art teacher, and my sister is in computer graphic design.
<snip>
All time is money and if you think it isn't your the one in dire need
of a business class. (sorry had enough of them years ago) Everything
has a value; your time, your girlfriends time, even the access to the
facilities. It's called opportunity cost.
You could:
A) Go get a job and earn money to buy art.
or
B) Do art work for yourself.
Now what is your opportunity cost to do this?
So you could do it, but is your time worth it? (And that's a question
only you can answer) Because depending on what your producing, it may
not be an item that sells... So, is it worth it to you to make the
art, have it done and only done for you? Most likely not. So now
you have to do it in a quantity to at least make it reasonable... Now,
can you sell it? And if it doesn't sell you'll make no profit and be
at a loss for the printing. (Unless you have access to something that
will print vector graphics on lexan? If not it's a cost... if so, how
long will you have that access if you start doing it for yourself and
your company finds out?)
You seem to chalk up your access to "facilities" and people helping as
free when they are not. There is a cost for it. Be it the
electricity to run the computer, the computer itself, the scanner, the
time someone spends helping you, the time you sit in a chair doing it,
the strain it puts on your body (versus sleep, since you don't?)... it
all has cost. If you don't value all of it, you don't understand
opportunity cost.
<snip>
> If I don't make art, someone else will. it is inevitable. would be harder for me to steal someone's
> work because I am not using same printer, but still. If you are trying to sway me off of making art,
> this just pisses me off and I will climb in those shoes.
> cut all corners I can.
<snip>
Piss you off?? No, I'm suggesting that if you are so inclined that
you make art that no one else has already made.... or did you miss the
original intent of this message in your attempt to just babble?
Go ahead and cut corners and produce the art..."climb in those shoes"
But if you make a crap product, no one will buy it (well, that's not
totally true.. since people may not know) But after a while you're
customer base will dwindle and you'll be out of business. If you make
a good product... well, then you're killing me there.....NOT!!! Heck,
I might even buy it. So what's the "climb in those shoes" supposed to
mean? A threat to someone that doesn't make art?? Take a valium
dude.
And no, not everyone will make art or for all games. My original
concern (If you read it) was that time and effort seemed to be
duplicated based on the release of art.... nothing more nothing less.
If you truely have the ability to repro art work, then please go make
a Zookeeper overlay (which I've heard people ask for.. although I
personally don't need it) or something like it! Or you could make a
Galaga overlay or something like it which already exists. But is
there a need for one more maker of Galaga art when there is no
ZooKeeper art? (God, what a waste if you did though) It's up to you
and you have to decide on the cost.
Jim
SVerlander
vs Them would be nice too :-)
I have NOS one side of each.
I hope yawl work this out and get back to making the best reproduction art so
my games can look new again.
If we cant have world peace can we have peace in the repo art world :-)
Sam
In Virginia
Mike Haaland
[Speaking of Macs]
>Hell....there isnt anything
>keeping clones from being made *now* afaik.
The sad truth is there is no demand for Mac clones.
- Mike -
Mike Haaland
>wrote:
>
>>Maybe you don't remember the days when if you wanted to
>>just open a Mac case you had to buy the special tool from
>>Apple (the only source).
Didn't they short the ram on the first Macs also? Like
128K instead of 512K?
- Mike -
Mike Haaland
<bso...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hehe.. the apple vs microsoft debate.....
>
>For those that discount apple and have not even looked at them beyond
>noticing the pretty cases of late should stop putting them down and take
>another look at what they are made of today.. Check the Unix based OS
>first, then look at compliance with open standards, then look at value per
>dollar for a like machine in the wintel world.. you'll see that this
>mystical cost gap is really not truly there after all. Then you argue
>software.. Well, tell me a GOOD MAINSTREAM app that's not available for the
>mac... go ahead :)
The question should be, tell me a mainstream app that is cheaper on
the Mac. They don't exist.
- Mike -
Mark C. Spaeth
: Maybe you don't remember the days when if you wanted to
: just open a Mac case you had to buy the special tool from
: Apple (the only source).
Oh, come on... it was just a really long torx driver...
I've cracked many skinny macs.... (and sometimes you can get away with
a long, thin flathead).
Mmm... fishtanks.
brian kirby
I will not be making art, I talked to numerous people on the topic today, I am not prepared to be sued.
I do not want to lose everything I have. (or what I have just fallen into )
There is still copyrights in place for this artwork even long after a company goes tits up.
notice the small print at bottom left corner of tempest overlay,
"Graphics, computer program and audio visual work C. 1981 atari, inc."
this means that in 10 years from now, if the person holding the copyrights wants to sue me for ALL the art I
ever produce, they can. I would be looking at fines well over $100,000 and I will never be able to make
that up in sold art.
they will not sue until they are sure they can take you for something (let it go on for a few years and
then, bang, your nailed with a lawsuit when they can take you for something.) why sue when you have
nothing. I have too much to lose.
I may not be sued today, or tomorrow, but there is a chance that it will happen someday.
I will never be able to obtain permission from any of these companies ever. So why risk it.
I will let others produce and buy from them or I will only produce art for myself, and not for profit.
(everyone should buy as much as possible, because it will be stopped eventually. then if it is made after
that it will cost a fortune through companies with copyrights)
There was more I wanted to say, but opportunity has come up and I am done wasting time. I did have notheing
better to do than "babble" .
write what you want, I am done stirring the pot :) done reading this stupid thread too. wanted to make
it the bigest yet, think it came pretty close.
I have games to sell. and lots of them. will make fortune on parts, not art. can't be sued there.
(just got go ahead to sell 800+ boards and 300+ ps(80% working stuff, not broken junk), tonnes of NOS stuff
and parts the world has never seen before., and if you don't believe me, just you wait. I am in arcade and
pinball heaven baby. last bit of babbling for a long time. have way too much to do now. got sweet news
today I have wanted to hear in all my years of gaming/collecting, all because I inquired about some stupid
art. jackpot !!!! )
Brian
brian kirby
wow!
if there was one longer, what was the topic?
Brian
Dan Coogan
Are you an attorney specializing in intellectual property law? I create photographs for a living and register
all my work with the Library of Congress BEFORE publication. I am not a lawyer, but have had to learn a bit
about copyright law due to my profession.
The copyright symbol does not need to be placed with the art -- it is inherent at creation (under US law -
other countries have different laws) Copyright also last for Life + 75 years.
Here is the link to the U. S. Copyright office web site
http://www.lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#pub
"Before 1978, federal copyright was generally secured by the act of publication with notice of copyright..."
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#noc
"The use of a copyright notice is no longer required under U. S. law, although it is often beneficial. Because
prior law did
contain such a requirement, however, the use of notice is still relevant to the copyright status of older
works."
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hlc
HOW LONG COPYRIGHT PROTECTION ENDURES
Works Originally Created on or after January 1, 1978
"A work that is created (fixed in tangible form for the first time) on or after January 1, 1978, is
automatically protected from the moment of its creation and is ordinarily given a term enduring for the
author's life plus an additional 70 years after the author's death."
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#504
§ 504. Remedies for infringement: Damages and profits4
"(b) Actual Damages and Profits.-The copyright owner is entitled to recover the actual damages suffered by him
or her as a result of the infringement, and any profits of the infringer that are attributable to the
infringement and are not taken into account in computing the actual damages. In establishing the infringer's
profits, the copyright owner is required to present proof only of the infringer's gross revenue, and the
infringer is required to prove his or her deductible expenses and the elements of profit attributable to
factors other than the copyrighted work.
(c) Statutory Damages.-
(1) Except as provided by clause (2) of this subsection, the copyright owner may elect, at any time before
final judgment is
rendered, to recover, instead of actual damages and profits, an award of statutory damages for all
infringements involved in the action, with respect to any one work, for which any one infringer is liable
individually, or for which any two or more infringers are liable jointly and severally, in a sum of not less
than $750 or more than $30,000 as the court considers just.
For the purposes of this subsection, all the parts of a compilation or derivative work constitute one work.
(2) In a case where the copyright owner sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that infringement
was committed willfully, the court in its discretion may increase the award of statutory damages to a sum of
not more than
$150,000...."
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#505
§ 505. Remedies for infringement: Costs and attorney's fees
"In any civil action under this title, the court in its discretion may allow the recovery of full costs by or
against any party other than the United States or an officer thereof. Except as otherwise provided by this
title, the court may also award a reasonable attorney's fee to the prevailing party as part of the costs."
I am not a lawyer. Best,
Dan Coogan
Photographer
brian kirby wrote:
> There is still copyrights in place for this artwork even long after a company goes tits up. notice the
> small print at bottom left corner of tempest overlay, "Graphics, computer program and audio visual work C.
> 1981 atari, inc."
> this means that in 10 years from now, if the person holding the copyrights wants to sue me for ALL the art I
> ever produce, they can. I would be looking at fines well over $100,000 and I will never be able to make that
> up in sold art. they will not sue until they are sure they can take you for something (let it go on for a
> few years and then, bang, your nailed with a lawsuit when they can take you for something.) why sue when you
> have nothing. I have too much to lose. I may not be sued today, or tomorrow, but there is a chance that it
> will happen someday. I will never be able to obtain permission from any of these companies ever. So why
> risk it. I will let others produce and buy from them or I will only produce art for myself, and not for
> profit. (everyone should buy as much as possible, because it will be stopped eventually. then if it is made
> after that it will cost a fortune through companies with copyrights).
>
> Brian
--
Dan Coogan
Coogan Photographic / Phoenix, AZ
Phone: 602.220.9192
E-Mail D...@CooganPhoto.com
Web: http://www.CooganPhoto.com
Web: http://www.DanCoogan.com
Represented by Black Inc.
Web: http://www.blackinc.com
"Photography With A Vision"
ChicagoGameComp
>>noticing the pretty cases of late<
I know this is OT, but one more comment here - the look of the Mac is not the
reason I don't like them. I think the OS sucks.
In my experience, it's buggy and crash-prone. Perhaps they should have spent
more time on that rather than trying to look cool.
IMHO,of course...
Dan
PorkTornado
is a reach ;)
in article 20020510033834...@mb-cc.aol.com, ChicagoGameComp at
chicago...@aol.com wrote on 5/10/02 3:38 AM:
PorkTornado
From Outpost.com:
Office x, xp (Fullver) Mac: 499.00 PC: 499.00
Photoshop 7.0(full) Mac: 549.00 PC: 549.00
Flash MX (full) Mac: 499.00 PC: 499.00
This list could go on and on...
Then if you wanna talk development environments, there's tons of them that
don't cost anywhere close to what Microsoft's .Net apps.. and the mac
supports Java2 and all of it's dev environments.
The price is identical for Office v.X, All Adobe apps, All Macromedia apps
and stuff like internet explorer, aim or newsreaders are the same cheap or
free they are on pc.. Games do average about 5 bucks more, true. What apps
might you be talking about that are more expensive?
Even the myriad of video editing/3d apps out there are similarly priced....
Check any software outlet you'd like.. (not to mention final cut pro, dvd
pro and others are mac ONLY and still cheaper than pc equivs)
I never claimed software was cheaper on the mac, but it's equal and you get
a better more open standards compliant OS to boot.
/b
in article 31kmdu4bushr8a144...@4ax.com, Mike Haaland at
mhaa...@hypertech.com wrote on 5/10/02 12:44 AM:
vidkid
to develop it. Microsoft "claims" it was co-developing Windows while
Mac was... which is bunk given the time difference. Windows was
developed well after the Mac was around and strong.
True, Microsoft is no angel... and Bill Gates isn't that great at
being a computer guy... now Visionary, he's amazing... and Crack
dealer mentality, he's perfect. He sold Windows cheap to anyone that
wanted it, got everyone on the platform and then once everyone was
hooked, he jacked up the price... Great business sense..... But it
hurts the consumer cause now they're stuck.
Mac just thought they could have a superior machine and people would
pay the money... they were dead wrong.
But yes, Xerox should be the real whiners, but they never wanted to
make it. Someone's got to be smacking their forehead over there I'll
bet. I say this as I work on a windows machine. ;-)
Jim
Smackey Two-Tongues <Smackey Two-Tongues> wrote in message news:<qellduk7ubm4rhc05...@4ax.com>...
CB
> whole CPO in one scan? I'd be curious to know where such a thing can be
> found.
Well, you really can't use a desktop scanner. Tried that, I figured
I'd make me a ton of money, I have no job, and never sleep, so I have
all the time in the world. I wanted to do SW Cockpit side art. Got the
whole thing on the scanner on my desk, and the GD desk caved in, on
the way down, the scanner was crushed. Now my cockpit is faded, and my
scanner is broken. I plan to return it to CDW, since it doesn't work
:(
Good thing I have a laptop, otherwise, I'd never be able to post ;) :)
Ya, something smells like $hit around here. Whether the printer stole
the art work, or what ever. But I have yet to see Steven say that HE
produced the files for the art work. He IS saying, he had the
"printer" do it... Therfore, the printer is the one that stole the
"work"....
Now you know why the computer (game) companies had propietary stuff
(and they made everything). If you copy one thing, it won't work
without everything.
Jason Kratz
class as some of the crap Microsoft has pulled. not even close. As to
clones one of the main reasons clones were stopped was because whoever
originally decided to let people make clones also decided to basically give
away their chipset and motherboard designs, etc. It cost very little in R&D
costs to create a Mac clone at that point and thus it was not too difficult
to undercut Apple on pricing. Nor did they have to really do much for
OS/driver development. Things changed also because nobody wanted to agree
to the new licensing argreements for OS 8.
The situation now is that if someone wanted to spend the money on R&D there
is really no reason why they couldnt make a PPC box that could run OS X
without Apple's help.
"Rich Marquette" <rma...@dca.net> wrote in message
news:3CDAFE5...@dca.net...
Jason Kratz
dev tools for $129. Lets see MS match that. oh wait...they cant. XP Pro
retail full alone is $299.
"PorkTornado" <bso...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B9013885.15B17%bso...@nospam.hotmail.com...
Curtis Hart
visit PARC and 'leech' any ideas they saw/came across, including ttf,
oop and of course, the gui interface since the Xerox-heads didn't
think any of that stuff was marketable.
Bill just grabbed an Apple Lisa, worked a deal for MS to work w/Apple
so he could get some specs on the new mac.
"Fire in Silicon Valley" - great book, btw.
-Curtis
Smackey Two-Tongues <Smackey Two-Tongues> wrote in message news:<qellduk7ubm4rhc05...@4ax.com>...
ChicagoGameComp
>is a reach ;)
Well, maybe I've had the misfortune of using exceptions to the rule, but
*every* Mac OS I've ever used has given me problems.
Dan
Doug Osgood
> CPO. They where paid to create the art, dies and print the cpos. If
> your (roy's) art was used it was without my knowledge. I think Doug
> might address this issue himself.
>
> www.arcadeshop.com
In response to recent threads, I find it necessary to clarify my
position with both Steven @ Arcade Shop and Philippe @ Arcade
Renovations.
I have been printing Steven's art for a number of years. Philippe
happened upon our website around 6 months later and contacted us for
his printing. Against Steven's recommendations, I accepted Philippe's
business not seeing any conflict of interest. It quickly became
evident that there was in fact a conflict of interest - and through
discussion with both parties - I redirected Philippe's business to
another branch of our parent company (Superior Imaging Group). I only
regret not having the initial wisdom to redirect arcade business to
other branches, as I did not have the foresight to anticipate the
possibility of independent recreation artists accusations of
collaboration or sharing of art. Specifically addressing the Tempest
Project: Steven sent me original NOS Tempest CPOs for recreation.
Upon recreating the art, I billed him for both the artwork and die
tooling involved with it's reproduction. Beyond that, I don't know
how to respond to the independent artist's accusations of sharing art.
Let it be known Designer Decal prints exclusively for Steven @ Arcade
Shop. These types of threads are what I'm trying to avoid. Please
try to understand my position.
Philippe Bourdon
This is a niiiice posting. When did you start reading rgvac?
I am not overly shoked to see that you still do what you're told.
Some day, you'll have to explain to me why.. But in the meantime,
I wanted you to know that your tempest cpo comment 's got to be
your greatest line of bullshit yet. My advise to you is to keep up
producing top notch artwork, because everything else you do and
have, including your integrity, is shit.
Philippe
"Doug Osgood" <do...@designerdecal.com> wrote in message
news:1920d412.02051...@posting.google.com...
James Cross
state whether you or your company recreated the art from the CPO that
Steven sent you or if you just took someone else's work, made a few
"adjustments" and charged Steven for work not performed.
In article <1920d412.02051...@posting.google.com>,
do...@designerdecal.com says...
Kerry Stair
Having the same artwork in house for two identical projects . . . is a
problem!! There is almost no way an artist would not cut that corner being
all the work is already done for him. Very few would not take advantage of
this. Whether Steven by design did this or the artist took it upon himself
to borrow or whether the printer just went ahead and used it . . . it really
doesn't matter at this point. The truth will always be muddied on purpose
by the entity that cut the corner. Its very unlikely that someone will come
forward and admit wrong doing. Proving it happened is fairly easy. Proving
who did it without a confession is probably impossible.
I've had good experiences with about everyone in this thread. I hope to
continue that !!
But I've learned in my short life what goes around comes around . . .
The "Good Book" says it best . . ."GOD is not mocked what ye sow ye shall
reap"
Lets all play nice !!
--
Kerry Stair
Mantis Amusements
www.mantisamusements.com
"Doug Osgood" <do...@designerdecal.com> wrote in message
news:1920d412.02051...@posting.google.com...
David Haynes
--
David Haynes
d...@bombjack.org
"James Cross" <ja...@icepulse.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.174d64fbc...@netnews.attbi.com...
ChicagoGameComp
>reap"<
And for those of us who don't follow that particular book - "like attracts
like." ;)
Dan