[B5].[strategy]: Can the Humans win this game??
Mike Yearick
rotated the races but the humans have never done well?? How can I
change that??
The Narns typically win. One especially successful player with the
Narn starts with Tu Pari and some Group that gives extra strife marks
and he is usually unstopable. Any ideas on how to slow this Narn
player??
--
Mike Yearick
To reply to me directly, please replace the garbage before the @ sign with just my last name.
Chris Hayes
about "[B5].[strategy]: Can the Humans win this game??" be delivered
now. So with a clearing of the throat, Mike Yearick <Please-
noS...@mindspring.com> began thusly:
>The Narns typically win. One especially successful player with the
>Narn starts with Tu Pari and some Group that gives extra strife marks
>and he is usually unstopable. Any ideas on how to slow this Narn
>player??
First turn Telepathic Scan by Lethke Zum Bartrado will really screw him
over. Along with the two characters on the table, it still leaves you
with 2 spare card slots in your starting hand for normal cards.
And with regards to your Humans not winning, try a "As It Was Meant To
Be/Talia Winters/Psi Corps/B5-End the Shadow War" deck. The amount of
little blue traingles you get on Sinclair normally ends up horrifically
large. My deck has won two games in a row now, with a Defend The Races
once and To Make A Stand the other time.
--
Agasha Spanner (1/2 -/4/1/) Dragon Clan. Inexperienced. Fridge Guardian
Limited: Bow to give to one of your Personalties a Beer token.
Limited: Bow to put four Beer tokens in the Fridge.
Spanner cannot straighten on your next turn.
Paul
>
> The humans have yet to win in the group with which I play. We have
> rotated the races but the humans have never done well?? How can I
> change that??
>
Uh !
Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn. Some
really good military and bags of big characters for a 'Support of the
Mighty'. Not to mention Bester, Psi Corps Intelligence and loads of Psi.
Hit Tu'Pari with a Sleeper Personality, that'll stop him !
Problems with the Narn, just beat the crap out of them with Limited
Strikes and Border Raids !!! :)
--
'Ash'
Black Omega Squadron
The UK's B5 CCG Elite
To e-mail me replace xxx in the address with beyond-the-rim
Steven C. Britton
> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
How do you come up with this?
Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
other two influence come from?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
******* ******* ******* Steven C. Britton
* * * sbri...@cadvision.com
****** ****** ******
* * * Keep a Critical Eye: The Watch
******* ******* ******* www.cadvision.com/sbritton
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being Reform is Never Having to say you're Tory
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billy
<sbri...@cadvision.com> wrote:
>Paul wrote:
>
>> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
>> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
>
>How do you come up with this?
>
>Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
>other two influence come from?
7 influence by the end of the second turn is I think what he
meant. You can rotate the first turn to build(5). Rotate second turn
to build(6). Replace with Sheridan and build again(7). Then use your
last influence to play Rapid Growth(8) :P
Bayushi Ansatsu * Scorpion Clan Shadow
-Billy
ve...@usit.net
Ash
>
> Paul wrote:
>
> > Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> > available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
>
> How do you come up with this?
>
> Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> other two influence come from?
OK, are we sitting confortably...
Turn 1
Rotate Sinclair to build 4 -> 5
Play Short Term Goals on Sinclairs Destiny Mark 5 -> 6
Replace Sinclair with Sheridan who comes into play Ready
Rotate Sheridan to build 6 -> 7
Simple really... and as I said, the fastest start in the game.
Ash
>
> On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:20:52 -0700, "Steven C. Britton"
>
> >Paul wrote:
> >
> >> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> >> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
> >
> >How do you come up with this?
> >
> >Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> >other two influence come from?
>
> meant. You can rotate the first turn to build(5). Rotate second turn
> to build(6). Replace with Sheridan and build again(7). Then use your
> last influence to play Rapid Growth(8) :P
>
> Bayushi Ansatsu * Scorpion Clan Shadow
>
> -Billy
> ve...@usit.net
No, 7 by the end of the 1st turn.
See my reply to Steven.
Puff the Magic Dragon
Steven C. Britton wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>
> > Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> > available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
>
> How do you come up with this?
>
> Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> other two influence come from?
Turn 1, rotate to build to 5, play Short Term Goals, so you're at 6. Replace
Jeff with John and have him build you to 7.
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ******* ******* ******* Steven C. Britton
> * * * sbri...@cadvision.com
> ****** ****** ******
> * * * Keep a Critical Eye: The Watch
> ******* ******* ******* www.cadvision.com/sbritton
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Being Reform is Never Having to say you're Tory
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Puff the Magic Dragon
pt...@erols.com
Koshism of the day:
"The avalanche has already started,
it is too late for the pebbles to vote."
dco...@bellatlantic.net
Ash <pa...@xxx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Steven C. Britton wrote:
> >
> > Paul wrote:
> >
> > > Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> > > available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
> >
> > How do you come up with this?
> >
> > Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> > other two influence come from?
>
> OK, are we sitting confortably...
>
> Turn 1
>
> Rotate Sinclair to build 4 -> 5
>
> Play Short Term Goals on Sinclairs Destiny Mark 5 -> 6
>
> Replace Sinclair with Sheridan who comes into play Ready
>
> Rotate Sheridan to build 6 -> 7
>
> Simple really... and as I said, the fastest start in the game.
The Non-Aligned can match it, though:
Turn 1: Build with one of their 2 starting characters (to 5).
Turn 2: Build with both of the starting characters (to 7).
And, if they want, they could put the card that lets you gain one influence if
your influence is under 10, and be at 8 by the end of turn 2.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Chris Hayes
about "[B5].[strategy]: Can the Humans win this game??" be delivered
thusly:
>The Non-Aligned can match it, though:
>Turn 1: Build with one of their 2 starting characters (to 5).
>Turn 2: Build with both of the starting characters (to 7).
Turn One: Build to 5, play Rapid Growth, drop Fulcrum of Power = 6+2
Turn Two: Build to 8+2
Turn Three: Build to 10+2
neil
>> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
>> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
>
>How do you come up with this?
>
>Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
>other two influence come from?
Or even better ..... 8 influence by the end of turn one?
Opening Hand - Sinclair, Sheridan, Great Machine, Emergency Military Aid
Play Great Machine
Build with Sinclair ( 5 influ, 2 remaining)
Replace with Sheridan
Support the Diplomacy aspect of GM with Sheridan
Apply two influence for 1 military using Emergency Military Aid.
Great Machine succeeds and you get the +3 influence, taking you to 8 (
Draw two cards....). Of course, this is a fragile start as people will
soon get wind of it and oppose the diplomacy part of the conflict. Until
then, make hay while the sun shines!
Neil Gow
B5 Ranger, Newcastle UK
Editor, Black Omega Squadron Newsletter.
Mike Yearick
>Mike Yearick wrote:
>>
>> The humans have yet to win in the group with which I play. We have
>> rotated the races but the humans have never done well?? How can I
>> change that??
>>
>
>Uh !
>
>Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
>available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn. Some
>really good military and bags of big characters for a 'Support of the
>Mighty'. Not to mention Bester, Psi Corps Intelligence and loads of Psi.
It is not the start that is the problem. It is the mid-game.
Actually a fast start with my group is a bad idea as it focuses the
rest of the players against the fast starter. The group sometimes
forgets to then re-evaluate who the leader really is mid way thorugh.
>
>Hit Tu'Pari with a Sleeper Personality, that'll stop him !
I will try this.
>
>Problems with the Narn, just beat the crap out of them with Limited
>Strikes and Border Raids !!! :)
This may just be a luck-of-the-draw thing but the Narn always seem to
have good fleets and good leaders out early.
Puff the Magic Dragon
neil wrote:
> >> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> >> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
> >
> >How do you come up with this?
> >
> >Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> >other two influence come from?
>
> Or even better ..... 8 influence by the end of turn one?
>
> Opening Hand - Sinclair, Sheridan, Great Machine, Emergency Military Aid
>
> Play Great Machine
> Build with Sinclair ( 5 influ, 2 remaining)
> Replace with Sheridan
> Support the Diplomacy aspect of GM with Sheridan
> Apply two influence for 1 military using Emergency Military Aid.
Actually, I think trying to pull off the first turn GM with the Humans is
foolish. The Narns can neutralize your ambassador, as can the Minbari and you
have little to no chance of actually succeeding with the GM unless you played
it using Sheridans ability (which you couldn't afford this turn) after
everyone had built. IMHO, it's not worth it.
> Great Machine succeeds and you get the +3 influence, taking you to 8 (
> Draw two cards....). Of course, this is a fragile start as people will
> soon get wind of it and oppose the diplomacy part of the conflict. Until
> then, make hay while the sun shines!
>
> Neil Gow
> B5 Ranger, Newcastle UK
> Editor, Black Omega Squadron Newsletter.
--
dco...@bellatlantic.net
pt...@erols.com wrote:
>
>
> neil wrote:
>
> > >> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> > >> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
> > >
> > >How do you come up with this?
> > >
> > >Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> > >other two influence come from?
> >
> > Or even better ..... 8 influence by the end of turn one?
> >
> > Opening Hand - Sinclair, Sheridan, Great Machine, Emergency Military Aid
> >
> > Play Great Machine
> > Build with Sinclair ( 5 influ, 2 remaining)
> > Replace with Sheridan
> > Support the Diplomacy aspect of GM with Sheridan
> > Apply two influence for 1 military using Emergency Military Aid.
>
> Actually, I think trying to pull off the first turn GM with the Humans is
> foolish. The Narns can neutralize your ambassador, as can the Minbari and you
> have little to no chance of actually succeeding with the GM unless you played
> it using Sheridans ability (which you couldn't afford this turn) after
> everyone had built. IMHO, it's not worth it.
It could work if people aren't expecting it, though. People will see the
Great Machine played by the humans and assume they're trying to increase B5
influence. They'd probably assume the same from the other races, for that
matter (setting up Forging Alliances, for instance). And when Sinclair's
first action is to build, they'll probably build themselves, since it doesn't
look like the Human's are up to anything. Then the next game, when people
are expecting you to go for the influence, just let it lose and get ready to
use all those cards that work off B5's influence....
The Minbari have the best chance of winning a first-turn Great Machine. The
only thing that can stop them is G'Kar attacking Delenn (or some Non-Aligned
startups). The other day, in a tournament final, the Minbari won a Great
Machine played by the Humans as part of an obnoxious Alliance of Races
strategy....
Ash
>
> >> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> >> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
> >
> >How do you come up with this?
> >
> >Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> >other two influence come from?
>
> Or even better ..... 8 influence by the end of turn one?
>
> Opening Hand - Sinclair, Sheridan, Great Machine, Emergency Military Aid
>
> Play Great Machine
> Build with Sinclair ( 5 influ, 2 remaining)
> Replace with Sheridan
> Support the Diplomacy aspect of GM with Sheridan
> Apply two influence for 1 military using Emergency Military Aid.
>
> Draw two cards....). Of course, this is a fragile start as people will
> soon get wind of it and oppose the diplomacy part of the conflict. Until
> then, make hay while the sun shines!
>
> Neil Gow
> B5 Ranger, Newcastle UK
> Editor, Black Omega Squadron Newsletter.
Neil,
Your obviously running/playing in too many namby pamby girly
tournaments.
Like you'd ever be allowed to get The Great Machine off !!
<bg>
Ash
> The Non-Aligned can match it, though:
> Turn 1: Build with one of their 2 starting characters (to 5).
> Turn 2: Build with both of the starting characters (to 7).
>
>
Yeah, I hadn't seen the non-aligned stuff when I first posted, but the
speed at
which they start is awesome. They may have a tendency ro run out of
steam though !
James Wardell
<Spa...@larrrrrd.demon.co.uk> writes
>Command and Control was empty, and yet tradition required the speech
>about "[B5].[strategy]: Can the Humans win this game??" be delivered
>now. So with a clearing of the throat, dco...@bellatlantic.net began
>thusly:
>
>>Turn 1: Build with one of their 2 starting characters (to 5).
>>Turn 2: Build with both of the starting characters (to 7).
>
>Turn Two: Build to 8+2
>Turn Three: Build to 10+2
>
Rapid Growth: 7
Turn 2: Build to 9
--
James Wardell
Steve Salmon
>>>Turn 1: Build with one of their 2 starting characters (to 5).
>>>Turn 2: Build with both of the starting characters (to 7).
>>
>>Turn One: Build to 5, play Rapid Growth, drop Fulcrum of Power = 6+2
>>Turn Two: Build to 8+2
>>Turn Three: Build to 10+2
>>
>Turn 1: Play Disruption, Support with Vlur/Nhar play Chosen of God and
>Rapid Growth: 7
>Turn 2: Build to 9
>--
>James Wardell
How about
Turn 1: Play Immortality Serum, Support with Kalika Qwal'mizra, play Chosen
of God and Rapid Growth. Takes you to 8 at end of turn 1
Turn 2 : Build twice to 10
Steve Salmon
dco...@bellatlantic.net
Ash <pa...@xxx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> > The Non-Aligned can match it, though:
> > Turn 1: Build with one of their 2 starting characters (to 5).
> > Turn 2: Build with both of the starting characters (to 7).
> >
if
> > your influence is under 10, and be at 8 by the end of turn 2.
> >
>
> Yeah, I hadn't seen the non-aligned stuff when I first posted, but the
> speed at
> which they start is awesome. They may have a tendency ro run out of
> steam though !
True in most cases, anyhow. It's easy to get out to an early lead, but can
be tough to maintain that lead once other people get rolling. In general, I
think the Non-Aligned need clever play and a bit of luck to win - unless it's
a Pak'ma'ra Chosen of God deck, in which case you can win with sheer brute
force, no cleverness required.
Chris Hayes
about "[B5].[strategy]: Can the Humans win this game??" be delivered
<ja...@wardells.demon.co.uk> began thusly:
>Turn 1: Play Disruption, Support with Vlur/Nhar play Chosen of God and
>Rapid Growth: 7
I make that 5 then. Disruption gets opposed by Clark and Refa.
Bruce Scott
Damn long thread, but no-one seemed to offer much advice :-)
What's this pre-occupation with speed anyway....this isn't that other game
where speed kills....you've got 3 opponents who will all look at you as the
major threat.
Major advantage the Humans have is card drawing. Psi Corp Intelligence is
a must to help you cycle through your cards, and Bester is a great boon.
Anyway...Human paths to victory.
Cheesy stuff.
Humans play both Forced Evolution and Order Above All strategies very well.
Vorlons have been hammered a bit by TGW, so go Clark as a starting
ambassador get Zahadum Awakened out early and watch the clock ticking.
Alliance of Races sometimes gets there...but it's an instant target on your
forhead, so your defenses need to be good.
Perhaps the most common of the early Human winning decks (at least
here-abouts) is the old Defense in Depth/Catherine Sakai combo. While
watered down slightly by Deluxe wordings...still a valid concept though.
Non-Cheese
A good choice for Humans is diplomacy. Because all races are ok at it, it
doesn't seem to be all that commonly used. Couple of options here....you
can go for the Affirmation of Peace/Alliance route, Trade Pact/Trade
Windfall route, or Power Politics. Psi as backup with Commercial Telepaths
is also uesful. Support of the Mighty would be a useful late game power
gainer.
Human intrigue is pretty good too, and with Clarke as a starting
ambassador, plus Build Infrastructure you can have Sarah, and 10 intrigue,
out on the first turn. Zack, Garibaldi, Senator Young, Bester and even
Franklin all provide good intrigue, and you can add a touch more Shadows
for Sh. Contact and Morden. Marcus is also a good addition. A dedicated
Human intrigue deck can often out muscle the Centauri.
Human military should also be possible....though I've never seen it done
successfully. You have ok fleets and good leaders, plus Proxima III and
Haigh to reduce costs, so it should work. This might reduce the likelihood
of Minbari picking on you...so it might be a solid choice. Combine it with
Defense in Depth for the extra influence and +2 mil.
Paul <pa...@beyond-the-rim.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<36A237...@beyond-the-rim.demon.co.uk>...
> Mike Yearick wrote:
> >
> > The humans have yet to win in the group with which I play. We have
> > rotated the races but the humans have never done well?? How can I
> > change that??
> >
>
> Uh !
>
> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn. Some
> really good military and bags of big characters for a 'Support of the
> Mighty'. Not to mention Bester, Psi Corps Intelligence and loads of Psi.
>
> Hit Tu'Pari with a Sleeper Personality, that'll stop him !
>
> Problems with the Narn, just beat the crap out of them with Limited
> Strikes and Border Raids !!! :)
>
neil
>Actually, I think trying to pull off the first turn GM with the Humans is
>foolish. The Narns can neutralize your ambassador, as can the Minbari and you
>have little to no chance of actually succeeding with the GM unless you played
>it using Sheridans ability (which you couldn't afford this turn) after
>everyone had built. IMHO, it's not worth it.
I never said it was a *sensible* start - just that it was a possible
start. Nowhere near as good as NA start of Pak'ma'ra ambassador, She'Lah,
Chosen of God, Looling Ahead and the Right Contacts.*)
Neil Gow
B5 Ranger, Newcastle UK
Editor - Black Omega Squadron
Jefferson Hyde
>
> True in most cases, anyhow. It's easy to get out to an early lead, but can
> be tough to maintain that lead once other people get rolling. In general, I
> think the Non-Aligned need clever play and a bit of luck to win - unless it's
> a Pak'ma'ra Chosen of God deck, in which case you can win with sheer brute
> force, no cleverness required.
In recent games I've found that the Chosen of God Drazi deck is almost
as brutal. You instantly get a leader 8, and a leader 6 (7 when leading
Drazi fleets), which makes for:
1) Vree Scouts killing battle fleets without taking damage (how did
this fleet ever get out of playtesting anyway?)
2) Saccing a Pak'ma'ra supply ship and a Vree saucer to play a United
Fleet
3) Insane Brakiri cruisers that are military 10+ and have stealth
technology buillt into them
4) And you can focus some efforts to make the leaders even better
(leadership 10 for Vizak)
The thing about Non-Aligned Fleets, is that for the most part they're
better than the non-aligned counterparts when combined with good
leaders, and in some cases they're just better period. Like I said
earlier, Vree Scouts are ridiculously powerful; even if you shadow
strike them or whatever in order to get rid of them (certainly not via
attack, unless you're using a Shadow or Vorlon fleet), the Non-aligned
player can just ping off a measly point from a Non-aligned captain and
bring it back (use the consultants trick to do this infinite times).
The Combined Fleets are also probably better than the first, second, and
third battle fleets of any other race.
A large part of this thread has been about fast starts, but nobody
starts faster than the Non-aligned races with Fulcrum of Power as the
opening agenda. Try it: By the time the "powerful" races are just
hitting ten influence, you'll be at 10, have your homeworld in play, and
have 3 (?!) characters in your inner circle, with 13 influence to apply
every turn. Bust out characters and fleets. The cool thing is that
promotion penalties aren't really cumulative, as most of the time when
you promote a character, you get an extra influence to apply, which can
use to promote your next character, etc, etc.
Then, after you have built up your force at a speed that is much faster
than the other races, play Chosen of God and persue any strategy - with
the Pak'ma'ra and Drazi being the obvious "slam".
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the non-aligned are really
strong. I think Chosen of God should definitely be a major agenda, and
even then you really have to band all the other races together to avoid
getting rolled over. Since when were Drazi leaders better than
Warleader Skakiri anyway?
- sharrup
- "Ypu............."
Adam Jackson Howie
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Billy wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:20:52 -0700, "Steven C. Britton"
> <sbri...@cadvision.com> wrote:
>
> >Paul wrote:
> >
> >> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> >> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
> >
> >How do you come up with this?
> >
> >Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> >other two influence come from?
>
> 7 influence by the end of the second turn is I think what he
> meant. You can rotate the first turn to build(5). Rotate second turn
> to build(6). Replace with Sheridan and build again(7). Then use your
> last influence to play Rapid Growth(8) :P
>
> Bayushi Ansatsu * Scorpion Clan Shadow
>
Small Problem there... Sheridan when he replaces enters the game in teh same state as teh replaced chrcater. That is rotated.
No as for winning witrh humans use teh following...
Bester
Commercial Tep's
Psi Attacks
All teh Tep's you can get your hands on.
Senetopr Vodreau
Magaia Hidoshi
Power Politics
Earth
Basic plan,. get to ten, use SHort Term goals on Sinclar, replace with SHeridan. Play Power Politics. Win 3x in 3 turns and voila, you have won, only one deck can even stand a chance really (I know there are others) that is a Minbari deck, but even then i
f you have Luis Santiago you can easilly win.
There that is only a small idea of what you can do, if you want a good 60 card Human Deck (well I think it is anyway) go to my homepage:
http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceeajh4/cv/interests/ccg-b5.html
All the best and just wait for Psi-Corps
Adam Howie
Edinburgh
Scotland
http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceeajh4/
>
dco...@bellatlantic.net
Jefferson Hyde <sha...@NOSPAMwolfenet.com> wrote:
> dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> >
>
> > True in most cases, anyhow. It's easy to get out to an early lead, but can
> > be tough to maintain that lead once other people get rolling. In general, I
> > think the Non-Aligned need clever play and a bit of luck to win - unless
it's
> > a Pak'ma'ra Chosen of God deck, in which case you can win with sheer brute
> > force, no cleverness required.
>
> In recent games I've found that the Chosen of God Drazi deck is almost
> as brutal. You instantly get a leader 8, and a leader 6 (7 when leading
> Drazi fleets), which makes for:
> 1) Vree Scouts killing battle fleets without taking damage (how did
> this fleet ever get out of playtesting anyway?)
> 2) Saccing a Pak'ma'ra supply ship and a Vree saucer to play a United
> Fleet
Just for clarification, is it officially ruled that added leadership counts
for sponsoring a United Fleet (and you don't have to discard the leader?) And
it's current Military, not Printed, right? So you couldn't discard a damaged
or neutralized fleet, but you could reap the benefits of stuff like Establish
Base, Rise of the Republic, etc.?
I'm not sure you even need to bother with Fulcrum of Power if you're aiming
for Chosen of God. With the Pak'ma'ra and Drazi, you're only concerned with
one or two characters anyhow, and you can put the second in the opening hand
and promote it quickly just by virtue of the fast build two characters
provide.
I really like Fulcrum of Power for its own sake, though. My own Non-Aligned
deck is a pretty "thematically correct" one where I'm basically trying to use
the League to enforce a balance of power between the Great Powers by using
diplomacy and Consultants. While, of course, trying to earn influence here
and there to stay a bit ahead of the balance myself.... :)
> So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the non-aligned are really
> strong. I think Chosen of God should definitely be a major agenda, and
> even then you really have to band all the other races together to avoid
> getting rolled over. Since when were Drazi leaders better than
> Warleader Skakiri anyway?
Making Chosen of God a Major Agenda might make sense. I think the problem is
that it's overpowered for some species (Pak'ma'ra and maybe the Drazi, though
I have yet to see the latter in action), but pretty trivial for others. I
can only see minor benefits for, say, a Brakiri or Gaim Chosen of God. Hyach
Chosen of God might be useful to get a P-16 Hyach Matriarch to win Psi
conflicts by herself, but that's not wildly unbalancing, I don't think.
Here's a question: can you rotate your homeworld to gain additional influence
from a Chosen of God-qualified won conflict if the conflict itself provided no
influence? (E.g. Chosen of God Hyach Matriarch wins a Telepathic Scan)? I
would think not, because the influence isn't gained "from a conflict," but
rather from an agenda, similar to Trade Pact giving influence from the Free
Trade enhancement, as opposed to the conflict itself. Is this reasoning
correct?
Billy
<cee...@cee.hw.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Billy wrote:
>>
>> 7 influence by the end of the second turn is I think what he
>> meant. You can rotate the first turn to build(5). Rotate second turn
>> to build(6). Replace with Sheridan and build again(7). Then use your
>> last influence to play Rapid Growth(8) :P
>>
>Small Problem there... Sheridan when he replaces enters the game in teh same state as teh replaced chrcater. That is rotated.
I'm sorry, that's incorrect. All replaced characters enter
play unrotated. This quick start for the humans works and has been
being used for quite a while now by lots of people.
Bayushi Ansatsu * Scorpion Clan Shadow
-Billy
ve...@usit.net
Bruce Mason
>
> On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Billy wrote:
>
> > <sbri...@cadvision.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Paul wrote:
> > >
> > >> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> > >> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
> > >
> > >How do you come up with this?
> > >
> > >Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> > >other two influence come from?
> >
> > meant. You can rotate the first turn to build(5). Rotate second turn
> > to build(6). Replace with Sheridan and build again(7). Then use your
> > last influence to play Rapid Growth(8) :P
> >
> >
>
This is probably the most common misconception about replacement in the
game. A replacing character comes in undamaged and ready. The Sheridan
shuffle has been known about since day 1. Personally I don't like it.
Sure you've got 7 influence on the first turn but you've burnt three
cards and your destiny mark and have only 1 IC character.
If you want a fast start then I prefer:
Build infrastructure, short term goals, human agent.
Turn 1: Rotate to build, play Short term goals, sponsor agenda, sponsor
agent. 6 influence.
Turn 2: Rotate to build, promote. 7 influence.
Turn 3: double build. 9 influence, draw extra card.
Turn 4: build. draw 2 extra cards.
By end of turn 4 you have 10 influence, 7 cards and 2 IC characters and
you're ready to roll.
Slightly slower start with Ivanova.
Turn 1: Rotate to build, play Rapid Growth, sponsor agenda. 6 influence.
Turn 2: Rotate to build. sponsor Ivanova. 7 influence.
Turn 3: Rotate to build. Promote. 8 influence.
Turn 4: double build. draw extra card.
Gives you 10 influence, and 5 cards with your destiny mark left. If you
replace Rapid Growth with Short Term Goals you get an extra card.
This is a good start for a human military deck as you have a pile of
leadership with Sheridan to come later.
The point of the fast start strategy is to avoid becoming a target.
Many players, especially military, will look to launch their first
conflicts once they get to 10 influence and there's nothing worse than
losing influence due to Border Raids/Limited Strikes/Prey on the Weak
when you're still on 7 or 8 influence. You can get pegged back for
several turns.
---Bruce
ATLB5CCG
>for sponsoring a United Fleet (and you don't have to discard the leader?) And
>it's current Military, not Printed, right? So you couldn't discard a damaged
>or neutralized fleet, but you could reap the benefits of stuff like Establish
>Base, Rise of the Republic, etc.?
Yes, it is an offical ruling.
>Here's a question: can you rotate your homeworld to gain additional influence
>from a Chosen of God-qualified won conflict if the conflict itself provided
>no
>influence? (E.g. Chosen of God Hyach Matriarch wins a Telepathic Scan)? I
>would think not, because the influence isn't gained "from a conflict," but
>rather from an agenda, similar to Trade Pact giving influence from the Free
>Trade enhancement, as opposed to the conflict itself. Is this reasoning
>correct?
You cannot rotate your homeworld to gain an extra influence (unless the
conflict you won also gives you influence). Yes, it's similar to Trade Pact,
but a better example might be Total War.
Lance Howard
Babylon 5 CCG Ranger for North Atlanta
dco...@bellatlantic.net
Bruce Mason <mas...@cf.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Small Problem there... Sheridan when he replaces enters the game in teh
same state as teh replaced chrcater. That is rotated.
>
> This is probably the most common misconception about replacement in the
> game. A replacing character comes in undamaged and ready. The Sheridan
> shuffle has been known about since day 1. Personally I don't like it.
> Sure you've got 7 influence on the first turn but you've burnt three
> cards and your destiny mark and have only 1 IC character.
>
I like it if and only if Sheridan is a crucial part of the deck concept.
Which, for me, he often is, since I love his conflict-generating special
ability. Then, you can get off to a slightly faster start. I wouldn't use it
*solely* to get off to a quicker start, though - a second character will
probably serve you better 9 times out of 10.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
dco...@bellatlantic.net
atlb...@aol.com (ATLB5CCG) wrote:
> >Just for clarification, is it officially ruled that added leadership counts
> >for sponsoring a United Fleet (and you don't have to discard the leader?) And
> >it's current Military, not Printed, right? So you couldn't discard a damaged
> >or neutralized fleet, but you could reap the benefits of stuff like Establish
> >Base, Rise of the Republic, etc.?
>
The part about the leader not getting discarded? That part seems a little
fishy to me, since the leadership is part of the Military, but oh, well....
>
> >Here's a question: can you rotate your homeworld to gain additional influence
> >from a Chosen of God-qualified won conflict if the conflict itself provided
> >no
> >influence? (E.g. Chosen of God Hyach Matriarch wins a Telepathic Scan)? I
> >would think not, because the influence isn't gained "from a conflict," but
> >rather from an agenda, similar to Trade Pact giving influence from the Free
> >Trade enhancement, as opposed to the conflict itself. Is this reasoning
> >correct?
>
> You cannot rotate your homeworld to gain an extra influence (unless the
> conflict you won also gives you influence). Yes, it's similar to Trade Pact,
> but a better example might be Total War.
Ah, that is indeed a better example, particularly since I actually read the
text of Chosen of God ("Whenever you gain influence from a conflict
and...."). So any conflict the CoG +1 bonus applies to is per se a conflict
that you could also rotate your homeworld for....
Ash
>
> Small Problem there... Sheridan when he replaces enters the game in teh same state as teh replaced chrcater. That is rotated.
>
Nope, from the dawn of time, replaced characters enter the game Ready
and undamaged... ask you local Ranger for confirmation.
Recently I've been playing a Human deck with two copies of both Sheridan
and Commander Ivanova in the deck. That way you can get the benefits of
replacement and the free Destiny mark on Sheridan whilst maintaining a
strong opening hand.
--
'Ash'
Pinkie Purple Mu Squadron
The UK's 'Slightly Better Than Average' B5 CCG players
Smegged on by a pissed of Ranger... :)
Daniel Holzer
: Adam Jackson Howie wrote:
: >
: > Small Problem there... Sheridan when he replaces enters the game in teh same state as teh replaced chrcater. That is rotated.
: >
: Nope, from the dawn of time, replaced characters enter the game Ready
: and undamaged... ask you local Ranger for confirmation.
Not from the dawn of time. Very early replacement characters entered
play in the same state as the character they replaced. However, that was
changed a long time ago.
: Recently I've been playing a Human deck with two copies of both Sheridan
: and Commander Ivanova in the deck. That way you can get the benefits of
: replacement and the free Destiny mark on Sheridan whilst maintaining a
: strong opening hand.
This is a great idea, as they can be used as a free Hours of the Wolf,
and they add quite a bit of ability in the process. Unfortunately, using
Sheridan this way is ineffective in decks that rely on aftermaths (such
as Focus their Effort and Successful Manipulation/United Front) or marks,
as your best target for such cards (your Ambassador) is in danger of
disappearing on you, taking your hard work with him.
Steve Brinich
> Recently I've been playing a Human deck with two copies of both
> Sheridan and Commander Ivanova in the deck. That way you can get
> the benefits of replacement and the free Destiny mark on Sheridan
> whilst maintaining a strong opening hand.
An alternative is to include two copies of Personal Growth, to let you
fish out Sheridan and Commander Ivanova.
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Puff the Magic Dragon
Bruce Mason wrote:
> Adam Jackson Howie wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Billy wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:20:52 -0700, "Steven C. Britton"
> > > <sbri...@cadvision.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Paul wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Why are the Humans having so much trouble ? They have the fastest start
> > > >> available in the game, 7 influence at the end of the 1st turn.
> > > >
> > > >How do you come up with this?
> > > >
> > > >Turn 1, start with 4 influlence. Rotate to build to 5. Where does the
> > > >other two influence come from?
> > >
> > > 7 influence by the end of the second turn is I think what he
> > > meant. You can rotate the first turn to build(5). Rotate second turn
> > > to build(6). Replace with Sheridan and build again(7). Then use your
> > > last influence to play Rapid Growth(8) :P
> > >
> > > Bayushi Ansatsu * Scorpion Clan Shadow
> > >
> >
> > Small Problem there... Sheridan when he replaces enters the game in teh same state as teh replaced chrcater. That is rotated.
>
> This is probably the most common misconception about replacement in the
> game. A replacing character comes in undamaged and ready. The Sheridan
> shuffle has been known about since day 1. Personally I don't like it.
> Sure you've got 7 influence on the first turn but you've burnt three
> cards and your destiny mark and have only 1 IC character.
One small correction, you got your Destiny Mark back when you replaced Jeff so it's not a big deal. I agree that it's overrated,
but still.
> If you want a fast start then I prefer:
> Build infrastructure, short term goals, human agent.
Personally I think Muster Support is the superior card as it allows you to promote the expensive characters and build up an inner
circle rapidly. Plus, if you draw him, you can play Bester several turns early.
> ---Bruce
Puff the Magic Dragon
dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> In article <36A47D...@NOSPAMwolfenet.com>,
> Jefferson Hyde <sha...@NOSPAMwolfenet.com> wrote:
> > dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > True in most cases, anyhow. It's easy to get out to an early lead, but can
> > > be tough to maintain that lead once other people get rolling. In general, I
> > > think the Non-Aligned need clever play and a bit of luck to win - unless
> it's
> > > a Pak'ma'ra Chosen of God deck, in which case you can win with sheer brute
> > > force, no cleverness required.
> >
> > In recent games I've found that the Chosen of God Drazi deck is almost
> > as brutal. You instantly get a leader 8, and a leader 6 (7 when leading
> > Drazi fleets), which makes for:
> > 1) Vree Scouts killing battle fleets without taking damage (how did
> > this fleet ever get out of playtesting anyway?)
> > 2) Saccing a Pak'ma'ra supply ship and a Vree saucer to play a United
> > Fleet
>
> Just for clarification, is it officially ruled that added leadership counts
> for sponsoring a United Fleet (and you don't have to discard the leader?) And
> it's current Military, not Printed, right? So you couldn't discard a damaged
> or neutralized fleet, but you could reap the benefits of stuff like Establish
> Base, Rise of the Republic, etc.?
Yea, it's current. If it was printed, United Fleets would be *way* too powerful.
"Yea, my First Battle Fleet will destroy your Homeworld Fleet, my Babylon 5 Fighters
will destroy your Picket Fleet, and my Utility Fleet will attack that damn Grey
Council Fleet. Oh, I'm losing now. Woops, wait, I just realized, I have a Utility
Fleet, hmmm, guess I'm winning now eh :-)?"
Actually, with the Pak'ma'ra you might as well use all 4, they're all exceptional.
I'm actually quite disappointed in the number of Drazi characters. After the Markab
died, the Drazi became the symbol of the Non-Aligned Worlds, when you think of the
NA Worlds, you don't think of the Llort, Hyach, or even Gaim (all of whom have at
least the same number of characters as the Drazi), it's the Drazi that pop up in
your head. At least that's how everyone I know perceives the NA Worlds. Did we
ever visit the Pak'ma'ra homeworld? I didn't think so. So why are there 2 Drazi
characters? Hopefully we'll get more in Psi Corps.
> Here's a question: can you rotate your homeworld to gain additional influence
> from a Chosen of God-qualified won conflict if the conflict itself provided no
> influence? (E.g. Chosen of God Hyach Matriarch wins a Telepathic Scan)?
No, since the Homeworld gives you influence if the conflict did, not your agenda.
> I would think not, because the influence isn't gained "from a conflict," but
> rather from an agenda, similar to Trade Pact giving influence from the Free
> Trade enhancement, as opposed to the conflict itself. Is this reasoning
> correct?
>
Yes.
Chris Hayes
about "[B5].[strategy]: Can the Humans win this game??" be delivered
<B.S...@nospam.gu.edu.au> began thusly:
>Human intrigue is pretty good too, and with Clarke as a starting
>ambassador, plus Build Infrastructure you can have Sarah, and 10 intrigue,
>out on the first turn. Zack, Garibaldi, Senator Young, Bester and even
>Franklin all provide good intrigue, and you can add a touch more Shadows
>for Sh. Contact and Morden. Marcus is also a good addition.
Not in a Shadow deck he isn't.
Steve Brinich
> Does replacing an Agenda require the rotation of an Inner Circle
> character? (There is a blanket statement about bringing a new agenda
> into play requires an ICC to rotate, but the sentence on replacing
> implies that you may simply replace the card (v1.2 - p42)).
IIRC, the rules and rulings say that say you can do one of these four
things as an action: discard an (ordinary) Agenda, play an Agenda (either
open or hidden), reveal a hidden Agenda, or replace one Agenda with
another. Playing or replacing an Agenda requires an Inner Circle
character to rotate (unless the Agenda specifically waives this
requirement); revealing or discarding one does not.
Puff the Magic Dragon
Almut & Steven wrote:
> "Small Problem there... Sheridan when he replaces enters the game in the
> same
> state as the replaced character. That is rotated."
> +++
> "This is probably the most common misconception about replacement in the
> game. A replacing character comes in undamaged and ready."
> +++++
> Perhaps, "most commonly overlooked revision", is more appropriate.
> The earliest publicized rulings were that the state is maintained when
> replacing. Even the new glossary does not acknowledge the revised ruling
> that the new card comes into play ready and it is not mention in the section
> about replacing the Ambassador either... perhaps this clarification should
> appear in the next edition of the rules (presumably due to come out with Psi
> Corps).
I, personally, don't think we need a whole new rulebook with Psi Corps.
Hopefully, a 2-3 page sheet can list all the significant revisions. Of note,
however, the replacement rules are in the FAQ and even on the "Top Ten
Questions" list that's been on Precedence's page for at least a year now. It
should be in the rulebook, I agree, but it is widely available information.
> It is not impossible that there are still people who have it IN WRITING from
> Precedence that the card comes in to play in the same state as the card
> leaving the game.
I belive it's also been distributed to Zeta members and, as I said, it's on the
web page.
> Does replacing an Agenda require the rotation of an Inner Circle character?
> (There is a blanket statement about bringing a new agenda into play requires
> an ICC to rotate, but the sentence on replacing implies that you may simply
> replace the card (v1.2 - p42)).
AFAIK, no, you don't.
>
> ---Steven
Almut & Steven
same
state as the replaced character. That is rotated."
+++
"This is probably the most common misconception about replacement in the
game. A replacing character comes in undamaged and ready."
+++++
Perhaps, "most commonly overlooked revision", is more appropriate.
The earliest publicized rulings were that the state is maintained when
replacing. Even the new glossary does not acknowledge the revised ruling
that the new card comes into play ready and it is not mention in the section
about replacing the Ambassador either... perhaps this clarification should
appear in the next edition of the rules (presumably due to come out with Psi
Corps).
Precedence that the card comes in to play in the same state as the card
leaving the game.
Curiously, I can't find any statement that 'replacing a character' is
considered an action.
Does replacing an Agenda require the rotation of an Inner Circle character?
(There is a blanket statement about bringing a new agenda into play requires
an ICC to rotate, but the sentence on replacing implies that you may simply
replace the card (v1.2 - p42)).
---Steven
Bruce Mason
>
> "Small Problem there... Sheridan when he replaces enters the game in the
> same
> state as the replaced character. That is rotated."
> +++
> "This is probably the most common misconception about replacement in the
> game. A replacing character comes in undamaged and ready."
> +++++
> Perhaps, "most commonly overlooked revision", is more appropriate.
> The earliest publicized rulings were that the state is maintained when
> replacing.
tournamant on February 7 last year and the replacement rule had already
been well disseminated by then because I knew people who were doing the
Sheridan shuffle.
> Even the new glossary does not acknowledge the revised ruling
> that the new card comes into play ready and it is not mention in the section
> about replacing the Ambassador either... perhaps this clarification should
> appear in the next edition of the rules (presumably due to come out with Psi
> Corps).
I hope so. Although the new glossary does give some marginal
information about replacing.
> It is not impossible that there are still people who have it IN WRITING from
> Precedence that the card comes in to play in the same state as the card
> leaving the game.
>
> Curiously, I can't find any statement that 'replacing a character' is
> considered an action.
>
> Does replacing an Agenda require the rotation of an Inner Circle character?
> (There is a blanket statement about bringing a new agenda into play requires
> an ICC to rotate, but the sentence on replacing implies that you may simply
> replace the card (v1.2 - p42)).
I think the answer is yes you are supposed to rotate, unlike other kinds
of replacement, but yes it is poorly written and people may easily get
confused with generic replacing rules (doesn't require an IC character
to rotate) and generic agenda sponsoring rules which does. So which
rule takes priority?
---Bruce
> ---Steven
Douglas Williamson
> Almut & Steven wrote:
>
> > Does replacing an Agenda require the rotation of an Inner Circle
> > character? (There is a blanket statement about bringing a new agenda
> > into play requires an ICC to rotate, but the sentence on replacing
> > implies that you may simply replace the card (v1.2 - p42)).
>
> IIRC, the rules and rulings say that say you can do one of these four
> things as an action: discard an (ordinary) Agenda, play an Agenda (either
> open or hidden), reveal a hidden Agenda, or replace one Agenda with
> another. Playing or replacing an Agenda requires an Inner Circle
> character to rotate (unless the Agenda specifically waives this
> requirement); revealing or discarding one does not.
Correct.
-------------------
Doug "Kosh" Williamson, B5CCG Ranger Netrep
Babylon 5 Ranger for the Washington DC area.
Ask me about in-store demos of the
Babylon 5 CCG!
http://www.mnsinc.com/lupin
lu...@mnsinc.com
Almut & Steven
Hopefully, a 2-3 page sheet can list all the significant revisions. Of note,
however, the replacement rules are in the FAQ and even on the "Top Ten
Questions" list that's been on Precedence's page for at least a year now.
It should be in the rulebook, I agree, but it is widely available
information.
=======================================================
Widely available... IF you see the need to go looking for it.
If it is big enough to make the FAQ top 10, then it really should be in
the rulebook.
The Psi Corps deck will have to contain a full rulebook as it's a faction
starter deck. I don't see any greater expense in printing v1.3 than
reprinting v1.2 (maybe a bit extra for a new cover design) and given the
fiasco with the current rule book... Can you believe that nobody picked up a
copy and flicked through it?
As for the web-site!
Small, dark, ugly, slow and with a reputation for being the best part of a
year out of date into the bargain. (Which may no longer be the case, but
then people haven't noticed the clarification of replacement rules
either...) Normally I'm not much interested in web-sites one way or the
other, but I have developed a real dislike of the Precedence effort...
Strange that anyone looking for information around here is (almost) never
directed to the Precedence page, but rather to the Kosh or Farbus pages.
---Steven
Puff the Magic Dragon
Almut & Steven wrote:
> I, personally, don't think we need a whole new rulebook with Psi Corps.
> Hopefully, a 2-3 page sheet can list all the significant revisions. Of note,
> however, the replacement rules are in the FAQ and even on the "Top Ten
> Questions" list that's been on Precedence's page for at least a year now.
> It should be in the rulebook, I agree, but it is widely available
> information.
> ---Puff the Magic Dragon
> =======================================================
> Widely available... IF you see the need to go looking for it.
> If it is big enough to make the FAQ top 10, then it really should be in
> the rulebook.
>
> The Psi Corps deck will have to contain a full rulebook as it's a faction
> starter deck. I don't see any greater expense in printing v1.3 than
> reprinting v1.2 (maybe a bit extra for a new cover design) and given the
> fiasco with the current rule book... Can you believe that nobody picked up a
> copy and flicked through it?
It is a rather glaring error, I agree, but I'm not sure that the Psi Corps deck
will be a faction starter deck. It may well be an extension deck much like the
Opposition Factions starter is now, if that's the case, than a new rulebook
really isn't warranted.
>
>
> As for the web-site!
> Small, dark, ugly, slow and with a reputation for being the best part of a
> year out of date into the bargain. (Which may no longer be the case, but
> then people haven't noticed the clarification of replacement rules
> either...) Normally I'm not much interested in web-sites one way or the
> other, but I have developed a real dislike of the Precedence effort...
> Strange that anyone looking for information around here is (almost) never
> directed to the Precedence page, but rather to the Kosh or Farbus pages.
Actually, the www.eternity.com was massively reformed back in September when
Sci-Fi CCG took the reigns. It now has useful information, a nice layout, and
all the necessary links (the most useful one being to the gallery of course).
>
>
> ---Steven
--
Puff the Magic Dragon
pt...@erols.com
Koshism of the day:
"If you go to Z'Ha'Dum... you will die."
Steve Brinich
> I, personally, don't think we need a whole new rulebook with
> Psi Corps.
That may or may not have been the case before, but now it's the last
best hope of having a properly printed current rulebook.
Almut & Steven
may well be an extension deck much like the Opposition Factions starter is
now, if that's the case, than a new rulebook really isn't warranted."
+++
The Opposition faction decks also contain complete rulebooks and are
identical in presntation to the Non-Aligned Races.... the destinction is
only technical. The general public seem to regard them all as starters (the
opposition factions as a 4-in-1 starter).
==========
"Actually, the www.eternity.com was massively reformed back in September
when Sci-Fi CCG took the reigns. It now has useful information, a nice
layout, and all the necessary links (the most useful one being to the
gallery of course)."
+++
Ahhh... it is this "reformed" site that I'm describing as small, dark, slow,
ugly and containing little relevant up to date information. Apart from
actually being the only "update" in the better part of a year I thought it
was a MASSIVE step backwards... but then I don't regard the art gallery as
in any way useful.
---Steven
Puff the Magic Dragon
Almut & Steven wrote:
Well the gallery's useful primarily if you physically don't have a given card
and want to see what it can do (and match it with a picture). Overall, I agree,
it's not a thrilling site, but it's a big improvement and it does link to the
"more important" sites, like Doug's.
Douglas Williamson
> Curiously, I can't find any statement that 'replacing a character' is
> considered an action.
It is.
> Does replacing an Agenda require the rotation of an Inner Circle character?
> (There is a blanket statement about bringing a new agenda into play requires
> an ICC to rotate, but the sentence on replacing implies that you may simply
> replace the card (v1.2 - p42)).
Yes, it does.
Clarisse D'vor
>In article <19990119112156...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
> atlb...@aol.com (ATLB5CCG) wrote:
>> >Just for clarification, is it officially ruled that added leadership counts
>> >for sponsoring a United Fleet (and you don't have to discard the leader?) And
>> >it's current Military, not Printed, right? So you couldn't discard a damaged
>> >or neutralized fleet, but you could reap the benefits of stuff like Establish
>> >Base, Rise of the Republic, etc.?
>>
>> Yes, it is an offical ruling.
>
>The part about the leader not getting discarded? That part seems a little
>fishy to me, since the leadership is part of the Military, but oh, well....
It is official...
It was also the reason they changed the text on shadow strike...
Because it didn't make sense for Mister Captain to just float away
safely after his ship was destroyed by the Shadows...
>
>>
>> >Here's a question: can you rotate your homeworld to gain additional influence
>> >from a Chosen of God-qualified won conflict if the conflict itself provided
>> >no
>> >influence? (E.g. Chosen of God Hyach Matriarch wins a Telepathic Scan)? I
>> >would think not, because the influence isn't gained "from a conflict," but
>> >rather from an agenda, similar to Trade Pact giving influence from the Free
>> >Trade enhancement, as opposed to the conflict itself. Is this reasoning
>> >correct?
>>
>> You cannot rotate your homeworld to gain an extra influence (unless the
>> conflict you won also gives you influence). Yes, it's similar to Trade Pact,
>> but a better example might be Total War.
>
>Ah, that is indeed a better example, particularly since I actually read the
>text of Chosen of God ("Whenever you gain influence from a conflict
>and...."). So any conflict the CoG +1 bonus applies to is per se a conflict
>that you could also rotate your homeworld for....
>
CoG is a fun little agenda... I often use it as a threatening chip.
Or for s&g to get Strike at the Heart out :) [long social games :)]
"Pak`ma`ra are chosen of Lorien! Very Special!"
That and getting bribed help from Prime Minister Mollari helped a good
deal ;)
I also tend ot use CoG for the Hyach... Just to annoy everyone else,
"Oh, Mr Morden is rotated for no effect. Oh, Lyta is rotated for no
effect. Oh, Shakiri is rotated for no effect." Of course, Tu'pari
tries to attack her quite often :).
dco...@bellatlantic.net
<4D49CED8E3231E8A.EF7093F1...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, dor...@airmail.net (Clarisse D'vor) wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:20:58 GMT, dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
>
> >In article <19990119112156...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
> > atlb...@aol.com (ATLB5CCG) wrote:
> >> >Just for clarification, is it officially ruled that added leadership
counts
> >> >for sponsoring a United Fleet (and you don't have to discard the leader?)
And
> >> >it's current Military, not Printed, right? So you couldn't discard a
damaged
> >> >or neutralized fleet, but you could reap the benefits of stuff like
Establish
> >> >Base, Rise of the Republic, etc.?
> >>
> >> Yes, it is an offical ruling.
> >
> >The part about the leader not getting discarded? That part seems a little
> >fishy to me, since the leadership is part of the Military, but oh, well....
>
> It is official...
> It was also the reason they changed the text on shadow strike...
> Because it didn't make sense for Mister Captain to just float away
> safely after his ship was destroyed by the Shadows...
But the ruling on United Fleets is the opposite (Right? Could somebody
re-clarify this?) The captain can lend his Leadership to the sponsoring of a
United Fleet, but doesn't have to be discarded with the Drazi Sunhawks, et al,
when the United Fleet is sponsored.
> CoG is a fun little agenda... I often use it as a threatening chip.
> Or for s&g to get Strike at the Heart out :) [long social games :)]
> "Pak`ma`ra are chosen of Lorien! Very Special!"
> That and getting bribed help from Prime Minister Mollari helped a good
> deal ;)
> I also tend ot use CoG for the Hyach... Just to annoy everyone else,
> "Oh, Mr Morden is rotated for no effect. Oh, Lyta is rotated for no
> effect. Oh, Shakiri is rotated for no effect." Of course, Tu'pari
> tries to attack her quite often :).
Sounds like your Chosen of God games are more fun than everybody else's! :)
But Tu'Pari can't attack the Hyach Matriarch, unless he temporarily gains Psi
from Dust....
ATLB5CCG
>counts
>> >> >for sponsoring a United Fleet (and you don't have to discard the
>leader?)
>And
>> >> >it's current Military, not Printed, right? So you couldn't discard a
>damaged
>> >> >or neutralized fleet, but you could reap the benefits of stuff like
>Establish
>> >> >Base, Rise of the Republic, etc.?
>> >>
>> >> Yes, it is an offical ruling.
>> >
>> >The part about the leader not getting discarded? That part seems a little
>> >fishy to me, since the leadership is part of the Military, but oh,
>well....
>>
>> It is official...
>> It was also the reason they changed the text on shadow strike...
>> Because it didn't make sense for Mister Captain to just float away
>> safely after his ship was destroyed by the Shadows...
>
>But the ruling on United Fleets is the opposite (Right? Could somebody
>re-clarify this?) The captain can lend his Leadership to the sponsoring of a
>United Fleet, but doesn't have to be discarded with the Drazi Sunhawks, et
>al,
>when the United Fleet is sponsored.
It's actually quite simple. If the card says "discard" a fleet (No Escape,
United Fleets), then only the fleet is discarded (Leaders, Support Fleets, etc.
are left behind). If the card says "neutralize" the fleet (Shadow Strike),
everything goes with it.
Lance Howard
Babylon 5 CCG Ramger - Atlanta, Ga
Steve Brinich
> It's actually quite simple. If the card says "discard" a fleet
> (No Escape, United Fleets), then only the fleet is discarded
> (Leaders, Support Fleets, etc. are left behind). If the card says
> "neutralize" the fleet (Shadow Strike), everything goes with it.
OTOH, neutralizing the fleet provides a window of opportunity to
un-neutralize it (e.g. Bloodied but Unbowed).
Clarisse D'vor
>> It is official...
>> It was also the reason they changed the text on shadow strike...
>> Because it didn't make sense for Mister Captain to just float away
>> safely after his ship was destroyed by the Shadows...
>
>But the ruling on United Fleets is the opposite (Right? Could somebody
>re-clarify this?) The captain can lend his Leadership to the sponsoring of a
>United Fleet, but doesn't have to be discarded with the Drazi Sunhawks, et al,
>when the United Fleet is sponsored.
>
>
Yea, the leaders don't have to be discarded...
Which makes it insanely fun when you have leaders and Shambah
III/Salvage Yards out... "Oooh, lookie, I discard my sunhawk and Vree
Saucer, oops, they're back in my hand now."
I can see where some of the "League is too powerful" comments come
from, but those are almost always when you let the league get
established. For me, I get gimpied rather often because at least one
of our 8 players [Homeworld Factions :)] put plague in their starting
hand to specifically gimp me over :).
>> CoG is a fun little agenda... I often use it as a threatening chip.
>> Or for s&g to get Strike at the Heart out :) [long social games :)]
>> "Pak`ma`ra are chosen of Lorien! Very Special!"
>> That and getting bribed help from Prime Minister Mollari helped a good
>> deal ;)
>> I also tend ot use CoG for the Hyach... Just to annoy everyone else,
>> "Oh, Mr Morden is rotated for no effect. Oh, Lyta is rotated for no
>> effect. Oh, Shakiri is rotated for no effect." Of course, Tu'pari
>> tries to attack her quite often :).
>
>Sounds like your Chosen of God games are more fun than everybody else's! :)
>But Tu'Pari can't attack the Hyach Matriarch, unless he temporarily gains Psi
>from Dust....
>
Hmm, they reruled/clarified that?
Weird. I thought he could attack anybody, he would just have to use
their highest ability [even if it didn't exist, although, he would
almost always get out shot by the Matriach's 16 pts of dmg]...
michael wilson daniels
: Hmm, they reruled/clarified that?
: Weird. I thought he could attack anybody, he would just have to use
: their highest ability [even if it didn't exist, although, he would
: almost always get out shot by the Matriach's 16 pts of dmg]...
It's in the new rulebook (on www.eternity.com or in the GW starters) -- you
cannot attack with a stat of zero (no matter how many strife marks you
have).
--
Michael W. Daniels | "Babylon 5...taught us that we had to create the
CS/Ling. Senior | future, or others will do it for us. It showed us
| that we have to care for each other, because if we
| don't, who will?"
Clarisse D'vor
<mwda...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Clarisse D'vor <dor...@airmail.net> wrote:
>: Hmm, they reruled/clarified that?
>: Weird. I thought he could attack anybody, he would just have to use
>: their highest ability [even if it didn't exist, although, he would
>: almost always get out shot by the Matriach's 16 pts of dmg]...
>
>It's in the new rulebook (on www.eternity.com or in the GW starters) -- you
>cannot attack with a stat of zero (no matter how many strife marks you
>have).
Hmm that makes Tu'pari gimpy.
I think that's only for conflict attacking... [So you can't attack in
an Diplomacy conflict if you have no diplomacy etc...]
Else the assassin really can't attack anyone except those who are
diplomats or covert ops ["Lookiat me! I'm an assassin but I can't
kill this captain oohahh!"] And more so with cards like Lashing Out.
*rechecking rulebook* All references of attacking are to the attack
in conflict form, that I can see anyway. And that would become a very
fubar'd way to make Tu'pari worthless entirely.... Using Isolated and
such on him....
dco...@bellatlantic.net
<16F8F178B9789973.378DE3A0...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, dor...@airmail.net (Clarisse D'vor) wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:49:12 GMT, dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> >Sounds like your Chosen of God games are more fun than everybody else's! :)
> >But Tu'Pari can't attack the Hyach Matriarch, unless he temporarily gains Psi
> >from Dust....
> >
> Hmm, they reruled/clarified that?
> Weird. I thought he could attack anybody, he would just have to use
> their highest ability [even if it didn't exist, although, he would
> almost always get out shot by the Matriach's 16 pts of dmg]...
Yes, this is a change from the old rules. It's in the new Great War rule
book. Basically, you can't attack somebody unless you have a non-zero value
in that ability, and Tu'Pari is no longer an exception (at one time, he was
the exception to this general rule). What I really want to do sometime is
have Tu'Pari with Thenta Makur and a PPG Rifle get exposed to Dust and whack
Bester....
dco...@bellatlantic.net
<EA5796EB5500FC20.C659C5D0...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, dor...@airmail.net (Clarisse D'vor) wrote:
> On 6 Feb 1999 00:55:35 GMT, michael wilson daniels
> <mwda...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> >Clarisse D'vor <dor...@airmail.net> wrote:
> >: Hmm, they reruled/clarified that?
> >: Weird. I thought he could attack anybody, he would just have to use
> >: their highest ability [even if it didn't exist, although, he would
> >: almost always get out shot by the Matriach's 16 pts of dmg]...
> >
> >It's in the new rulebook (on www.eternity.com or in the GW starters) -- you
> >cannot attack with a stat of zero (no matter how many strife marks you
> >have).
> Hmm that makes Tu'pari gimpy.
> I think that's only for conflict attacking... [So you can't attack in
> an Diplomacy conflict if you have no diplomacy etc...]
> Else the assassin really can't attack anyone except those who are
> diplomats or covert ops ["Lookiat me! I'm an assassin but I can't
> kill this captain oohahh!"] And more so with cards like Lashing Out.
> *rechecking rulebook* All references of attacking are to the attack
> in conflict form, that I can see anyway. And that would become a very
> fubar'd way to make Tu'pari worthless entirely.... Using Isolated and
> such on him....
It actually make sense to me thematically. Telepaths - well, they'd know
Tu'Pari is coming, and the Thenta Makur, from lack of experience, probably
don't have good ways of getting around that. Leaders would be protected by
military security - difficult to crack, at best. However, a military leader
who frequently meddles in the political arena, or tries to pull off covert
actions himself, like John Sheridan or the Ambitious Captain - well, he has
to leave the protections of his military base or flagship to engage in
extracurricular activities. Then, he's vulnerable to assassins. But the
lowly Centauri Captain, with his one-track mind, spends all his time on ships
or military bases, so there's rarely an opportunity to assassinate him.
Unless, of course, Tu'Pari makes friends with a Military Cadre, or perhaps
gets Combat Experience from a tour on a Narn warship. While he's there, he
gains access to the pass codes, knowledge of military behavior, etc. And
suddenly the liquidation of a Centauri Captain becomes trivial for one such
as Tu'Pari....
Puff the Magic Dragon
dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> In article
> <16F8F178B9789973.378DE3A0...@library-proxy.airnews.net
> >, dor...@airmail.net (Clarisse D'vor) wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:49:12 GMT, dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
>
> > >Sounds like your Chosen of God games are more fun than everybody else's! :)
> > >But Tu'Pari can't attack the Hyach Matriarch, unless he temporarily gains Psi
> > >from Dust....
> > >
> > Hmm, they reruled/clarified that?
> > Weird. I thought he could attack anybody, he would just have to use
> > their highest ability [even if it didn't exist, although, he would
> > almost always get out shot by the Matriach's 16 pts of dmg]...
>
> Yes, this is a change from the old rules. It's in the new Great War rule
> book. Basically, you can't attack somebody unless you have a non-zero value
> in that ability, and Tu'Pari is no longer an exception (at one time, he was
> the exception to this general rule). What I really want to do sometime is
> have Tu'Pari with Thenta Makur and a PPG Rifle get exposed to Dust and whack
> Bester....
Of course you could just save yourself the trouble and whack Bester directly with
the Dust :-).
>
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
dco...@bellatlantic.net
pt...@erols.com wrote:
>
>
> dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
>
> > In article
> >
<16F8F178B9789973.378DE3A0...@library-proxy.airnews.net
> > >, dor...@airmail.net (Clarisse D'vor) wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:49:12 GMT, dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> >
> > > >Sounds like your Chosen of God games are more fun than everybody else's!
:)
> > > >But Tu'Pari can't attack the Hyach Matriarch, unless he temporarily gains
Psi
> > > >from Dust....
> > > >
> > > Hmm, they reruled/clarified that?
> > > Weird. I thought he could attack anybody, he would just have to use
> > > their highest ability [even if it didn't exist, although, he would
> > > almost always get out shot by the Matriach's 16 pts of dmg]...
> >
> > Yes, this is a change from the old rules. It's in the new Great War rule
> > book. Basically, you can't attack somebody unless you have a non-zero value
> > in that ability, and Tu'Pari is no longer an exception (at one time, he was
> > the exception to this general rule). What I really want to do sometime is
> > have Tu'Pari with Thenta Makur and a PPG Rifle get exposed to Dust and whack
> > Bester....
>
> Of course you could just save yourself the trouble and whack Bester directly
with
> the Dust :-).
Well, I'm assuming/hoping/praying that will be errata'ed someday....
Clarisse D'vor
>In article
><16F8F178B9789973.378DE3A0...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>>, dor...@airmail.net (Clarisse D'vor) wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:49:12 GMT, dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
>
>> >Sounds like your Chosen of God games are more fun than everybody else's! :)
>> >But Tu'Pari can't attack the Hyach Matriarch, unless he temporarily gains Psi
>> >from Dust....
>> >
>> Hmm, they reruled/clarified that?
>> Weird. I thought he could attack anybody, he would just have to use
>> their highest ability [even if it didn't exist, although, he would
>> almost always get out shot by the Matriach's 16 pts of dmg]...
>
>Yes, this is a change from the old rules. It's in the new Great War rule
>book. Basically, you can't attack somebody unless you have a non-zero value
>in that ability, and Tu'Pari is no longer an exception (at one time, he was
>the exception to this general rule). What I really want to do sometime is
>have Tu'Pari with Thenta Makur and a PPG Rifle get exposed to Dust and whack
>Bester....
>
Where please tell me So I can read it ;)
I've been looking through the new GW rulebook the past few days and
haven't been able to find it, or at least point me to the FAQ. The
only mention of attack restrictions that I have found is that you must
have a non-zero ability if you are attacking through a conflict.
Almut & Steven
I've been looking through the new GW rulebook the past few days and
haven't been able to find it, or at least point me to the FAQ. The
only mention of attack restrictions that I have found is that you must
have a non-zero ability if you are attacking through a conflict.
"Cards cannot attack if the ability that will be used to make the attack is
zero."
p40. v1.2 (bottom of page)
It's under "Attacking a Conflict Participant" but I believe this is the rule
that's being quoted. There are no rules anywhere else that govern the
mechanics of an attack.
"You cannot attack a card in your own faction" is also listed here and
nobody is suggesting that this rule only applies within conflicts.
Tu'pari's card text only removes the "participation" requirement for making
an attack. It does not alter the mechanics of the attack.
---Steven
dco...@bellatlantic.net
<B08C4065DAF60D2C.747C5B25...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, dor...@airmail.net (Clarisse D'vor) wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Feb 1999 05:31:35 GMT, dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><16F8F178B9789973.378DE3A0...@library-proxy.airnews.net
> >>, dor...@airmail.net (Clarisse D'vor) wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:49:12 GMT, dco...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> >
> >> >Sounds like your Chosen of God games are more fun than everybody else's!
:)
> >> >But Tu'Pari can't attack the Hyach Matriarch, unless he temporarily gains
Psi
> >> >from Dust....
> >> >
> >> Hmm, they reruled/clarified that?
> >> Weird. I thought he could attack anybody, he would just have to use
> >> their highest ability [even if it didn't exist, although, he would
> >> almost always get out shot by the Matriach's 16 pts of dmg]...
> >
> >Yes, this is a change from the old rules. It's in the new Great War rule
> >book. Basically, you can't attack somebody unless you have a non-zero value
> >in that ability, and Tu'Pari is no longer an exception (at one time, he was
> >the exception to this general rule). What I really want to do sometime is
> >have Tu'Pari with Thenta Makur and a PPG Rifle get exposed to Dust and whack
> >Bester....
> >
> Where please tell me So I can read it ;)
> I've been looking through the new GW rulebook the past few days and
> haven't been able to find it, or at least point me to the FAQ. The
> only mention of attack restrictions that I have found is that you must
> have a non-zero ability if you are attacking through a conflict.
I guess it doesn't specifically mention Tu'Pari/Lashing Out on page 40, but
it does outline a rule of general applicability, and nothing on Tu'Pari's
card indicates that he can ignore that rule. In any event, Precedence has
definitely ruled that way in the near past. It *is* a reversal of a previous
ruling, though.
MyrrhIbis
>have Tu'Pari with Thenta Makur and a PPG Rifle get exposed to Dust and whack
>Bester....
YES!!! I hadn't thought of that!!!! It would be just enough to kill
Bester...hmmmmmm... <wheels turning> my fiance's gonna hate me for sure,
now..... :-)
Clarisse D'vor
>I guess it doesn't specifically mention Tu'Pari/Lashing Out on page 40, but
>it does outline a rule of general applicability, and nothing on Tu'Pari's
>card indicates that he can ignore that rule. In any event, Precedence has
>definitely ruled that way in the near past. It *is* a reversal of a previous
>ruling, though.
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Okie :)
I had _thought_ that was in reference to Conflict Participants [like
the other guy said whose name I have now forgotten :)]. Because you
kinda also had to be a valid conflict participant in a conflict to
attack [well for the most part]. It wouldn't, after all, make much
sense for Vir to go off and attack someone in a Psi conflict now, eh?
:) Anyway, might as well ask Hart and Kosh 'bout this :)
Puff the Magic Dragon
Clarisse D'vor wrote:
Well, they've ruled on this a number of times, Tu'Pari can't attack using Psi or
Leadership unless he somehow gains those abilities. This may even be in the new
FAQ, I'm not sure.