The Mythos Digest V2 #79
The Mythos Digest
In this Issue:
Brandi Weed Re: Cheese Decks
RCr...@mimillers.com Re: Attacking Deck
RCr...@mimillers.com RE: Cheese Decks
RCr...@mimillers.com Theme Decks
Eric DiStefano Re: The Mythos Digest V2 #78
Chris Johnson Re: Tournament Cheese
Brandi Weed Re: Theme Decks
Chris Johnson Re: Cheese Decks
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:33:08 GMT
From: bra...@dcn.davis.ca.us (Brandi Weed)
Subject: Re: Cheese Decks
On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:16:21 +1030, "Crouch, Chris"
<chris....@dsto.defence.gov.au> wrote:
>> Plus part (most for me) of the fun of playing Mythos is trying to
>> complete the exciting adventures (and to tell a story while doing so).
>> Cheese decks force me to play in way I don't want to and to finish too
>> quickly. It shouldn't be *so much easier* to score three-5pt =
adventures
>> than it is to score one-15pt adventure.
>
>I agree. It's fun to score interesting adventures (which is why I played=
The
>Auction / The Strange Case of Charles Fort deck for a while - it was
>interesting & different). It's not fun to heavily disrupt the game of
>everyone else playing.
Just slightly off topic: it is possible to do a fun story-- or at
least a fun theme deck-- even with those little 5- and 6-point
adventures.
If anyone's interested, I can post (or repost-- I think I described it
here a long while back) "Research and Development", a New AEon/Waking
World deck that uses simple adventures...
- --
Brandi Weed
bra...@dcn.davis.ca.us
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~brandi/
------------------------------
Date: 17 Feb 1999 09:59:39 -0500
From: <RCr...@mimillers.com>
Subject: Re: Attacking Deck
Whoops - sent this to the wrong address, where it bounces.
- ---------------------- Forwarded by Russell Craft/asc/mmmi on 02/17/99 09:55 AM
- ---------------------------
Russell Craft
02/17/99 09:33 AM
To: owner-...@chaosium.com @ mailconnect @ LNCONNECT
cc:
Subject: Re: Attacking Deck
That only works if everyone is playing that way. Knee-Deep isn't that popular
except for the Knee-Deep tourneys around here, there is seldom more than one
deck with Knee-Deep per game (usually 4-6 players per game, although we've had
as many as 9). I don't know of any excessive anger or bearing of grudges from
Mythos, but people are seldom happy when the game ends by someone going insane
(except, of course the winner) - in fact, in many of our friendly games the
person leading chooses not to drive someone insane when he/she could because it
seems "cheesy".
I have noticed that this appears to not be the case in other groups (from list
comments). I've often wondered if it might be due to differences in group
composition. Of the dozen or so semi-regulars, at least half of us are over
35 (as opposed to the groups I see playing Magic and L5R), and it is not
unusual for us to have 3 or 4 females playing. What do the other regular
Mythos groups out there look like?
Russ Craft
owner-...@chaosium.com on 02/16/99 05:58:55 PM
To: myt...@chaosium.com @ mailconnect
cc:
Subject: Attacking Deck
Around here, it's an unchallenging deck, not an attacking deck that
players are not pleased with. Most of us have Dark Horse or Knee-Deep in
Doom decks. Of course, any play that busts up a player's killer combo at
the moment it should have worked (for example, droughts or storms
halting travel, ill omen or nightguants discarding, etc.) will cause
some disappointment. Mythos is a card game. If a player are going to
become excessively angry and bear a grudge from playing Mythos, suggest
to that player he switch to bridge.
- --
- ------
- ------ In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics - HS
- ------ grh...@aol.com
- ------
- --
To unsubscribe from the Mythos ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to
mythos-...@chaosium.com. Mythos is a Trademark of Chaosium Inc.
------------------------------
Date: 17 Feb 1999 09:51:40 -0500
From: <RCr...@mimillers.com>
Subject: RE: Cheese Decks
owner-...@chaosium.com on 02/16/99 08:46:29 PM
To: myt...@chaosium.com @ mailconnect
cc:
Subject: RE: Cheese Decks
Chris & Guy Discuss
>> Subject: Cheese Decks
>>
>[snip]
>> * * *
>>
>> A cheese deck should have:
>>
>> o several adventures whose requirements overlap nearly 100%
>> ex: seeking everlasting life 1 + theron marks, etc.
>>
>> o those adventures should be easy to complete, coming one or two
>> card plays after the prior small adventure, although a few quick in-city
>> plays of locations or allies qualifies too.
>>
>> o many cards within the deck should fulfill requirements on different
>> adventures
>>
>This isn't a full list. The last deck I played in a tournament was The
>Auction / The Strange Case of Charles Fort. It was pretty cheesy, but
>doesn't qualify by the list above. What made it cheesy was that it was (a)
>reasonably quick, and (b) almost impossible to stop with out lots of
>Government Coverups (or, as happened in my case, the other 3 players beating
>up on me with monsters & phobias).
I've always thought the Charles Fort/Auction deck
qualified by Guy's criteria. The overlap is in the
traveling between two regions. Since most of the
other requirements can be played anywhere, all
that's really required is 2-3 of each required card.
The difficult part is getting the Police Investigation
and Thieves in the Attic in play, since both are
easy to prevent. (I recently played a 2-player game
against someone who I could tell was trying to play
The Auction and simply refused to play any of my
artifacts.)
>>
>> * * *
>>
>> No matter what cheese deck I name, there is a counter that will make it
>> unplayable. It isn't that I don't have the cards to halt a cheese deck,
>> it's that I can't put
> [Snip]
>The problem is the cheese-stoppers are generally even more effective against
>non-cheese decks, so it doesn't change the relative balance of cheese
>beating non-cheese unless you choose not to use your disruptive cards
>against non-cheese decks. And if I'd filled my deck with disruptive cards,
>I'd be playing them to disrupt everyone & try and win, irrespective of
>whether the other players were playing cheese or not.
>I tend not to like playing ultra-disruptive decks, because it pisses people
>off. Instead, I like to concentrate on one form of disruption per deck, with
>4-8 cards for that sort of disruption per deck. So in one deck I might go
>anti-ally, with 4 Nightgaunts, a Typhoid & 1-2 anti-ally spells, whereas in
>another decks I might go anti-artifact, & anti-spell with 4 Mi-Go, 4 Insects
>from Shaggai, and a couple of Thieves in the Attic, and in another decks I
>might just put 4 Government Coverups. This gives you enough disruption to
>guarantee disruption against certain decks types, without weighing your
>decks down with mostly useless cards.
I've only put together one disruptive deck. My
original Curious Parcel, Sel I, Interesting Shop,
and Questionable Judgement deck was beating
almost every other deck it faced, except for one
friends Dunwich Horror/SEL I. So, to stop that deck,
in came the Nightgaunts, Waves of Oblivion, and
Ring of Eibon.
>> Plus part (most for me) of the fun of playing Mythos is trying to
>> complete the exciting adventures (and to tell a story while doing so).
>> Cheese decks force me to play in way I don't want to and to finish too
>> quickly. It shouldn't be *so much easier* to score three-5pt adventures
>> than it is to score one-15pt adventure.
>I agree. It's fun to score interesting adventures (which is why I played The
>Auction / The Strange Case of Charles Fort deck for a while - it was
>interesting & different). It's not fun to heavily disrupt the game of
>everyone else playing.
>Maybe a different solution, instead of playing to 25pts, is to make all
>adventures worth -2 points. That way you need to complete 6-7 cheesy
>adventures, or 3-4 interesting big ones. It changes the relative size of
>adventures.
>Chris
Russ Craft
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To unsubscribe from the Mythos ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to
mythos-...@chaosium.com. Mythos is a Trademark of Chaosium Inc.
------------------------------
Date: 17 Feb 1999 11:14:16 -0500
From: <RCr...@mimillers.com>
Subject: Theme Decks
Brandi mentioned that it is possible to have small-valued adventures in a
story-telling or theme deck, which made me wonder just what theme decks people
have designed. Just to get the ball rolling, I'll mention some of my theme
decks. Note - I think of a theme deck as one where the adventures actually
tell a story.
Double Agent Deck - Adventures: Brotherhood of the Black Pharaoh, Questionable
Judgement, Secrets of the Silver Twighlight. Investigator: Diabolical Cultist
I Go, You Go, We All Go for Mi-Go Deck - Adventures: Yuggoth Attacks, Whispers
in Darkness, Theron Marks Society. Investigator: Agent in a Mi-Go Braincase.
Self-Agrandizement - Adventures: Knee-Deep in Doom, Save the World! (I love
the idea of bringing doom on the worlf and then claiming to have saved it.)
Investigator: Any
Professional Rivalry - Adventures: Secrets of the Silver Twilight, Assault on
Y'ha-Nthlei. I haven't actually built the deck, but the idea would be that the
Silver Twilight Lodge cultists take out the folks in Innsmouth. It would
require a Zenig to meet the Stand Against the Order prereq for Assault on
Y'ha-Nthlei, and perhaps the Steadfast Soldier could be a Mi-Go with a
Battleaxe.
I also have a deck called Cats & Dogs, but the theme is the monsters rather
than the adventures. It uses Werewolves, Hounds of Tindalos, Cats from Saturn,
and Chosen of Bath. Adventures are The Meow Ceremony, Knee-Deep in Doom, and
The Secrets of the Silver Twilight (which can be real cheesy as a final
adventure).
Then there's Avon Calling - The Outsider, The Theron Marks Society, Day the Sun
Stood Still. Adventurer: Pragmatic Hobo. The Hobo runs from one country house
to another, using In The Nick of Time, Blink of an Eye, and Townsfolk Riots to
prevent turns from being passed out. Thaasophobia is used for the Theron Marks
Society. Nemesis is there, just because. It's a real killer deck in a
two-player game!
Well, that's enough for now.
Russ Craft
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:56:39 -0800
From: Eric DiStefano <dis...@IDT.NET>
Subject: Re: The Mythos Digest V2 #78
> Cedric Chin <ced...@opentv.com>
> Subject: Tournaments: Just say No
>=20
> It's a little heretical (and may only apply to the West Coast), but my
> two bits about cheese (and socially unacceptable competitiveness) is
> simply to not have tournaments. IMO, Tournaments only reward those
> already playing the game. Compared to demos and casual play, it does no=
t
> encourage new players to play the game, nor the variety of decks that
> would not win a tournament. While this is not a problem with a CCG with
> a large audience (only Magic comes to mind), CCGs that need to increase
> their audience to survive should hold events encouraging new players to
> attend, and current players to continue playing.
>=20
> One suggestion would be to hold a raffle and give out a small prize
> every hour or half-hour, and/or give away boosters and $2 coupons. This
> would also allow players to attend even if they have schedule conflicts
> and need to arrive late or leave early. You could still use some sort o=
f
> system of one-hour games and travelling from one table to another, so
> that players can meet a variety of other players.
>=20
> Cedric.
>=20
>=20
Doesn't seem heretical to me (just needs to go as advertised). Let's
do both! Tournaments seemed best used as magnets for interim card
playing sessions, but when people are so spread out, it may not be quite
as effective in this way. So have sponsored play sessions at some cons,
tournaments at others. Rewarding old players, especially with more
Mythos cards, is a bit redundant, too (also). The root of the problem
is that the <basic> tournament structure does not stimulate the best
parts of the game. BUT, in defense of tournaments=85. I think that
tournaments and competitiveness, when all is said and done <can> be
more of an attracting force (even for new players) than it is
detracting. It is a card game, not an RPG, and not having a winner, or
at least acknowledged players, doesn't give it much basis for
continuing. I think that tournaments are good and winners are good -
but maybe there is another way of establishing winners. =20
Theme tournaments become useful when you want to keep it interesting
for the old players, but it's not practical for new players. Let's try
radical now. How about borrowing a chapter from a miniatures company
not to be named (let's call it Haster's Workshop or HW for short) that
gives 10 points for winning and has opponents rate each other for up to
5 points for sportsmanship and up to 5 points for painting (woops, can't
have that can we?). Actually, one of the non-players at the last
tournament (the one Cedric just won) drew a mohawk Cthulhu on the table
place-mat. He should have gotten a prize for that. But, I digress. =20
Maybe at the next Bay Area con: =20
- - 3 non-elimination rounds 1 hour max. (nothing new here.)
- - optional: Mixed adventure criteria X shorties or Y biggies (someone's
floating this one now)
- - Winner gets 5 pts.
- - All others rank others 0-3 for sportsmanship. Potential of 9 each. =20
- - All others rank others 0-2 for creativity (storytelling and deck theme
conveyance). Potential of 6 each.
- - Go to next round. Repeat.
- - No final. Tally all scores and its over.
- - Prizes. Applause and Chaos $ for winner. Specials for the newbies
and youngsters. =20
But - IMO you've gotta be there the whole time (3-4 hours is typical)
to collect. =20
- -Eric
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:24:21 -0800
From: Chris Johnson <chrisj...@hydro-mill.com>
Subject: Re: Tournament Cheese
David Lewis wrote:
> Okay, I'm going to show my ignorance here (but that's an advantage of
> being a relative 'newbie'!) and ask, what _is_ a cheese deck?
> I'd like to know as they obviously generate a _lot_ of bad feeling, and
> there's no way I'd want to inadvertantly play one! I also get the
> impression that playing an overly 'attacking' game is considered
> impolite? It would be nice if this 'ettiquette' were available!
Simply put, a cheese deck is any deck that is faster than yours... ;)
On a slightly more serious note, the generally accepted definition seems
to be a deck that relies on one or more Adventures that are over-valued,
or are too easy to play, especially in combination with other
Adventures. The classic example is Seeking Everlasting Life I, which
requires soley cards that can stay in play between Adventures, and
mostly or entirely overlaps with the requirements of a lot of other
Adventures. Beyond that, the definition seems to vary from person to
person, and from playgroup to playgroup.
It's not that "cheese" decks generate bad feeling so much as they seem
to be considered poor form. Of course, what else is considered poor form
also varies widely, but being "overly" bellicose often seems to fall
under that heading.
The best way to avoid any bad feelings is to ask questions and discuss
deck expectations before playing with a new person or group of people.
Chris
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:42:43 GMT
From: bra...@dcn.davis.ca.us (Brandi Weed)
Subject: Re: Theme Decks
On 17 Feb 1999 11:14:16 -0500, <RCr...@mimillers.com> wrote:
>Brandi mentioned that it is possible to have small-valued adventures in =
a=20
>story-telling or theme deck, which made me wonder just what theme decks =
people=20
>have designed.
Well, Research and Development has you found Chaosium, meet the Widow
Lovecraft, and find other curious items-- order depending on how the
adventures come into play, of course.
New AEon/Waking World cards. Takes place mainly in Kingsport and New
York.
Investigator: Pallid Programmer is most appropriate, though just about
any investigator will work.
Adventures: Two Cities and a Tale, Different Worlds, The Curious
Parcel, The Interesting Shop. (I put 2 of each in my decks.)
Allies: Robert Bloch (x2), New AEon Howard Lovecraft (x2), Sonia
Lovecraft (x2), Sandy Petersen (x2), Turquoise Skyhawk, Napoleon
Whateley (x2)
Artifacts: Laptop Computer, Emergency Medical Equipment (x2),
Disturbing Portrait (x2)
Events: Phobophobia (x2), Train (x2)
Locations: Chaosium (x2), Greenwich Village (x2), Harbor Place Hotel
(x2), Lovecraft's Grave (x2), McCarty's Newsstand (x2), Mr. Shiny's
Burger Palace (x2), Wreck of the Hellene (x2), Maison Nationale de
Sante, Dr. MacDonald's House
Monsters: Any 2; I use New AEon Mi-Go.
Spells: Chant of Thoth (x2)
Tomes: The Internet (x2), any others-- Call of Cthulhu and Whispers
Pulp Fiction Collection fit nicely into the theme.
- ---
Note that Mr. Shiny's Burger Palace is the other usable Cemetery for
Curious Parcel!
The Disturbing Portrait is needed to bring Sonia Lovecraft into play,
though given her biographical info on the card, it seems like she
should be playable in the New Aeon without it...
Also, this deck has lots of open places for customization. Just about
any event needed/desired to annoy other players can be put in, as well
as any worthwhile spell, though The Internet only holds Folk spells.
=46or those who tire of Curious Parcel and Interesting Shop, either of
these can be replaced with Questionable Judgment (although there are
not many New Aeon Libraries), and any number of Corrupt Cultists
brought into play (once Disturbing Portrait is out, you have The
Terrible Old Man available, as well as Providence people like Dr.
Allen and Gomes).
- --
Brandi Weed
bra...@dcn.davis.ca.us
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~brandi/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:16:10 -0800
From: Chris Johnson <chrisj...@hydro-mill.com>
Subject: Re: Cheese Decks
E R & G R Hail wrote:
> A cheese deck should have:
>
> o several adventures whose requirements overlap nearly 100%
> ex: seeking everlasting life 1 + theron marks, etc.
>
> although Dunwich Horror overlaps 100% with SEL 1, this *is not* a cheese
> deck because Dunwich Horror is difficult to complete and allows time for
> opponents to interfer, if they have the cards.
Indeed, Dunwich/SEL I isn't cheese per se, although is is dangerous. If
it gets a decent draw, it can be one of the faster decks out there. It
is relatively easy to hose, and should be hosed, for safety's sake. It
only takes one pass through the deck to play both Adventures. I was
mixing my examples..."cheese" decks aren't the only thing that one has
to look out for.
<snip the rest of discussion of "cheese" decks>
Ultimately, "cheese" is in the eye of the beholder. If someone's
collection or deck-construction skills aren't up to building a
non-cheese deck, they shouldn't necessarily face approbation.
Of course, we need to keep in mind the differences between tournaments
and "regular" games. Generally, I would never play one of my tournament
decks in any other circumstance. Conversely, I wouldn't even consider
bringing a "regular" deck to a tournament.
> >I would also suggest that people pack more cards designed to whack
> those playing what you consider "cheese" decks and *play* them.<
>
> That's my solution. I've seen a "Heroic Rescue" deck destroyed by Old
> Woman + 2xResurrection. And Townfolk Riot + Yithian Mental Contact has
> been saved to use only on the opponent whose deck included SEL 1, when
> that opponent walked or travelled to a Sanitarium.
>
> Unfortunately, setting as your goal combating cheese decks excessively
> limits the cards you should bring to a tournament. I have yet to see
> anyone play Basilisk or Ring of Eibon or Edward Pickman Derby. And I get
> tired just thinking about how I should put at least two of each
> anti-cheese cards in every deck (see list above for a sample).
Utility cards are the key...to stop the play of single Adventures, as
well as (and especially) to stop the play of chains of Adventures back
to back.
A well-placed Yithian can hose certain decks, and discarding Corrupt
Cultists, Resurrections, or certain Tomes rarely hurts. ;)
Ultimately, it takes a certain degree of cooperation to slow/stop the
truly "dangerous" decks. I certainly don't expect to do it on my own,
and will drop pointed hints to that effect if no one seems to be clueing
in (Although they usually do).
Pick one or two ways (beyond the standard utility cards) to muck about
with your opponents, use them as necessary, and hope for the best.
Chris
------------------------------
End of The Mythos Digest V2 #79
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