Top Ten favorite CCG's ever!
DrN...@my-dejanews.com
and share some of our favorites. Well, even if nobody else wants to, I will.
Then y'all can band together and mock my silly tastes.
DEAD STUFF:
Arcadia - This is a pretty original game idea. And the story was a lot of
fun to follow. The map pieces were pretty lame, though the rest of the art was
nice (and on both sides of the card, and really big).
Rage - It had a lot of rules complaints, but the play style really captured
the nastiness of the RPG. I hope WW gets a cut of the new Rage, because people
love FRPG's stuff.
James Bond - Heh. Not too sure why. Probably there was some great photo on
one of the cards, like Xenia or something. I only got one starter and one
booster, but I wish I had more.
Sim City: It's weird. The political stuff is hard to get to, but it's fun!
ALIVING STUFF:
Doomtown - Something about this game makes me really like it. Maybe it's the
Rolling Thunder system and the lack of rares. Maybe it's the promise of future
expansions. Maybe it's that guy feeding those sharks.
Babylon 5 - This game is fun, and it's faithful to the way the show runs.
Only problem is, it's getting a little too faithful. These rare-rare combos
are starting to worry me.
Ani-Mayhem - It could stand to be a little more mayhemic, but still pretty
fun.
Legend of the Burning Sands: I was hoping for a Rolling Thunder type
release, but Scrye says LBS will have three levels of rarity (CUR). Still,
reports say that this game is L5R done better, so maybe I'll look anyhow.
Anyone else?
Take Care
Nate
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DrN...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Here. Just to prove to folks that we aren't all bad, I propose we go ahead
> and share some of our favorites. Well, even if nobody else wants to, I will.
> Then y'all can band together and mock my silly tastes.
>
> DEAD STUFF:
> James Bond - Heh. Not too sure why. Probably there was some great photo on
> one of the cards, like Xenia or something. I only got one starter and one
> booster, but I wish I had more.
I like this one too. Great subject matter, of course, and lots of great
photos. It's quite playable, but the game shows signs of less-than-thorough
testing. Mainly, strong henchmen like Xenia Onatopp, Jaws or Oddjob are
too powerful, as I recall.
Unfortunately, the game isn't nearly as compelling as INWO or Babylon 5, so
I've only played it a couple times....
the Dave
Steve Brinich
INWO -- Good implementation of the _Cosmic Encounter_ concept of several
reasonably well-balanced players with different abilities (and adding
different goals to the mix, both inherent to each Illuminati faction and
from cards).
B5 -- The only good media-based one I've seen; another good multi-player
power politics game.
Netrunner -- Another good implementation of asymettrical sides (only two
in this case, which I don't see as a problem with the game even though I
tend to like multiplayer power politics).
--
Steve Brinich ste...@access.digex.net If the government wants us
PGP:89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E to respect the law
http://www.access.digex.net/~steve-b it should set a better example
Morix
>on
>> one of the cards, like Xenia or something. I only got one starter and one
>> booster, but I wish I had more.
>
>I like this one too. Great subject matter, of course, and lots of great
>photos. It's quite playable, but the game shows signs of less-than-thorough
>testing. Mainly, strong henchmen like Xenia Onatopp, Jaws or Oddjob are
>too powerful, as I recall.
When James Bond first came out, I got a Starter and a few Boosters and waited
for someone to play against. Here I am more than 2 years later and I still
haven't met anyone who plays it yet. C'est la vie.
Morix
Whos personal favorite is Shadowfist
TonyNovell
Here goes:
1. Spellfire- Best darn multi-player game I've played to date. Lots of
interaction with all players and everyone plays until somebody wins, unlike
most games that are elemination based. Game Works well with upto 20 players at
a time, but is best with 4 or 5.
2. Galactic Empires- Tons of fun. The record keeping is tedious, but part of
the fun. A lot of resource managment you see in computer games now. The ship to
ship battles were fun too. Always had the flavor of the original Star Trek TV
show for me.
3. INWO- Just plain cool! Very original game with all kinds of strage card
plays. Also loaded with tons of humor:-)
4. Mythos- Just a well thought out game. I didn't have alot of rules
problems and the game was closest to a Role-Play that I have played so far.
5. Magic: The Gathering- Don't play much, but must give credit where credit
is due. Tons of cards give a good deck building challenge. Maybe the best
head-to-head game on the market.
I will say I have yet to play Doomtown, Netrunner and Rage. All of which I
have read great things about:-)
Tony Novello
Legbiter
2. Jyhad
3. Rage
4. Eagles
5. Xxxenophile
6. Magic
7. Shadowfist
8. On the Edge
9. Netrunner [IMO technically the best game out, but i prefer to roleplay
scheming wizards and hideous supernatural monsters].
10. Battletech
Serena Wakefield
1. L5R
2. Netrunner *
3. Mythos *
4. Magic circa Revised
5. Doomtown
6. xXxenophile *
7. INWO *
8. Highlander *
I'm probably missing some there. I compiled this list by looking in
my games box and seeing what I still had cards from. (I've tried
probably a few dozen CCGs, but only the ones I like make it into the
box.)
I like the looks of Babylon 5, but I haven't gotten a chance to play
it yet so I can't reasonably call it a favorite.
Starred games above are the ones that I think should have been
released as standard noncollectible games. WAY too many good games
die horribly because companies squander terrific designs trying to
break into the most cutthroat area of the game industry ...
My spies inform me that, on Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:34:21 +0100,
not.av...@your.security.clearance (Legbiter), hiding under the
bedcovers, scribbled in the following in their diary:
>4. Eagles
Q'est-ce que c'est?
--
Serena Wakefield
rai...@GATE.10treasures.net (drop ten treasures to e-mail)
Jaskulke
1. Babylon 5
When tnt started playing this I never missed a show! I love it. Then the game
came out. It was very simple to learn, but got advanced as you added more
players, and learned more about the game. Plus players get into the game. Me
and my friends sit around doing bad impersitions of the ambasdors and have a
heck of a good time.
2. Rage
I haven't played by the new rules yet, but hope to soon. I have a huge german
sherpad and love to have him around when I am playing. I just love any game
where the only point is kick some butt!
3.Magic
I can't afford to play this game competivelly, so I don't collect it, but my
friends who do let me borrow there decks.
Star Trek the next ...
Bumper Stickers on the back of my car:
Mac OS X = Windows 2010
Punx not Ded
You clubbed a seal tonight?
Republican, the longest 4 letter word in the world
PowerPC 750(G3) = Intel Pentium Third age of mankind
God saves
Jaskulke
I was saying star trek the next...
I know this game doens't play well for more then two players, but I just like
the fast paced games. A good deck wins in 4-6 turns, and an amsq deck before
they got figured out could do it in 3.
for games I hate, that honor goes to btech.
I played this then read the books and got the role playing game. The ccg
misses so much from the books and rpg that i can't stand it. Where the heck
are the cool mechs???? What about the really cool mercs like the cammocho
callbros with cassy suthorn the best mech pilot there is! Too much like mtg
and like games that are different from each other.
Adem Ozkum
Other than Magic, most card games aren’t going to retain their singles
value. However, there’s no reason not to try other games. A lot of
players tend to think they need to spend exhorbitant amounts of money,
and have every playable card, to play these games. That’s not true. For
half the cost of a new videogame, you can get enough cards to build fun
and exciting decks for almost any of these games.
Doomtown
This is my current favorite. I can’t get enough of it. It is the most
unique and playable CCG to come along since Magic. It’s one of the few
CCGs that plays great as both a multiplayer and a 2 player game.
Shadowfist
This is the best multiplayer CCG out there, period. Doomtown comes
close. The ability to refill your hand and attack any character in play
makes this an extremely fun and fast paced game. The character
abilities, such as ‘Guts’ and ‘Superleap,’ are better even than Magic’s
‘First Strike’ and ‘Flying.’
Netrunner
This is the best 2 player CCG, period. I love the fact that almost
everything you do has benefits or consequences. Do you run on that fort
that might be holding the game winning agenda, or might be a trap.
Unlike Magic, you can’t just sit there behind a large creature and wait
for an advantage. It’s constantly exciting. This is also the only game
where you can bluff your opponent into doing something wrong.
Magic
Let’s face it. As the first CCG to come out, Magic is still pretty
balanced and versatile. There’s still no other CCG out there that can be
played in as many ways as Magic can. The way of paying for cards and the
balance of colors is elegant. Ironically, one of it’s strengths is also
it’s weakness. Magic is a money game. Your cards are more likely to
retain their value but the game is very expensive to play.
----------------------------------------------
STANDARD FARE- Games worth checking out.
These are all solid games but suffer from one of several problems.
There’s no interest or ‘buzz’ about some, making them essentially dead,
and others either aren’t fun enough or original enough to make it to the
top of the list.
The Last Crusade
This one almost made it to the previous section. It’s very original, has
a movement scheme that makes sense, and was the first CCG to use dice
rolls as an integral part of its play mechanic. It’s almost a cross
between a CCG and a military board game.
Mythos
This was the first story based game and gets a lot more fun if you
embellish your story as you play your cards. This is one game where you
really get out of it what you put into it. Rather than just plopping
down your cards, make scary comments and infer bad things for your
future. You’ll have a blast. I like the fact that one of the safest
places to be is in an asylum (much like real life).
Kult
This one plays great and is very original. It plays like it was designed
by one of the characters in the game. I suspect it’s a victim of the
timing of it’s release and the obscurity of its license. It came out
during the great glut and only had 2 levels of rarity. During that time,
though, collectability was more important than playability. It feels as
though this attitude is changing.
Legend of the 5 Rings
This is a great game thats hampered a little by two things. It’s got a
confusing and overly complicated table set-up and still feels a little
too much like Magic. Despite these, it’s still one of the best games
out. I love the fact that there are multiple ways to win. From first
impressions, Legends of the Burning Sands has most of its strengths and
few of its weaknesses.
Battletech
This is a good game but it doesn’t feel very original. For a combat
oriented game, it’s not as fast as Doomtown or Shadowfist.
Overpower
This one is a little too simplistic but is still fun to play. Like
poker, it’s a lot better if you’re wagering. I never play Overpower
without playing for set ante. It’s also much better if you play it with
the Missions. If you don’t it becomes a battle of Special cards.
Star Wars
I really wanted to like this game, and it has some great mechanics, like
force drains. However, Decipher games tend to be ‘match games.’ In other
words, if the symbol on this card matches the symbol on that card then
you can use it. Kind of a boring and uninspired play mechanic.
Star Trek
See Star Wars.
Middle Earth
The best thing about Middle Earth is the subject matter and the multiple
ways to win. Trying to memorize the map was a pain, and movement without
terrains is uninspired. It also tends to be too much of a ‘match game.’
Vampire
This one is much better multiplayer. Confusing rules make it hard to
learn, and it has a tendency toward ‘matchitis.’
Guardians
The art is great and the game plays better than it probably should for a
game that is based almost entirely on multiple levels of ‘rock, paper,
scissors.’
----------------------------------------------
HONORABLE MENTION- I haven’t played these, but want to check them out.
These are games I haven’t played, but have generated enough good press
that I’d like to try them out.
Legend of the Burning Sands
This game looks great. It keeps most of the strengths of L5R while
getting rid of the weaknesses. I’ve read the rules but haven’t played it
yet, but I will. It looks too good to pass up.
Babylon 5
Sounds interesting, but no one’s playing it where I live.
Rage
INWO
Dixie
I’ve heard from people whose judgement I trust that this game is
actually better than The Last Crusade. I haven’t played it though.
the Dave
TonyNovell <tonyn...@aol.com> wrote:
> 2. Galactic Empires- Tons of fun. The record keeping is tedious, but part of
>the fun. A lot of resource managment you see in computer games now. The ship to
>ship battles were fun too. Always had the flavor of the original Star Trek TV
>show for me.
Anyone else have opinions about this one?
the Dave
Adem Ozkum <ad...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>Guardians
>The art is great and the game plays better than it probably should for a
>game that is based almost entirely on multiple levels of ‘rock, paper,
>scissors.’
I agree that the bonuses for creature size and class (mortal/elemental/
external) are a lot like rock/paper/scissors, but in the rest of the
combat mechanics I don't see much of this. In the board layout and
movement level, I don't see it at all--it plays mostly like a boardgame.
NCascone
2. L5R
3. Jyhad/VtES (with card limits, including banned and restricted lists; after
all, it _is_ a WoTC game, and their playtesters haven't been the best)
4. Ultimate Combat (almost exactly like Magic, only better)
5. Wing Commander
6. Dune
7. INWO
8. Shadowfist
That's about it; sorry I couldn't get to 10. LBS might wind up on here, after
I try it out. Haven't tried B5 or Doomtown (really, I haven't tried anything
new except Dune).
Nicholas Cascone
L5R(1.1d): CN--- S(LA) (I'm the definition!) G++ R+ Y+ C+++(+) E! M- !T D+ !K
U+
You want clever? Send money. I don't work for free.
Puckstpr
2. L5R
3. Jyhad/VtES (with card limits, including banned and restricted lists; after
all, it _is_ a WoTC game, and their playtesters haven't been the best)
4. Ultimate Combat (almost exactly like Magic, only better)
5. Wing Commander
6. Dune
7. INWO
8. Shadowfist
That's about it; sorry I couldn't get to 10. LBS might wind up on here, after
I try it out. Haven't tried B5 or Doomtown (really, I haven't tried anything
new except Dune).
you should try ShadowRun by FASA it rocks.
puckstpr
Brakiss187
2. shadowrun ccg
3. rage
4. wildstorm
5.star wars
6. doomtrooper
7. l5r
8. b5
9. dune
10. overpower
Serena Wakefield
(NCascone), hiding under the bedcovers, scribbled in the following in
their diary:
>5. Wing Commander
I've heard this, but I've never even seen packs for sale, let alone
played the game. How does it play?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hida Serena * Crab Clan Quartermaster * Experienced
http://www.gate.net/~raistw/ccgs/l5r.html rai...@gate.net
CB+ S-- G+ R Y C E+ M T D++ K+ U++
Serena Wakefield
d...@dillinger.io.com (the Dave), hiding under the bedcovers, scribbled
in the following in their diary:
>In article <199807311428...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>TonyNovell <tonyn...@aol.com> wrote:
Nothing wrong with the game per se, rules worked fine. Bit
overcomplicated but not fatally so. I'm told that Time Wars was
entirely too kind to turtle decks, so you may want to skip that
expansion. Cardstock sucked but that's about it.
Avoid the tournaments, though. There was a BIG problem with the
company printing promo cards to order for anyone who wanted them.
Main reason I never played Galactic Empires was that there were other
games that I was more interested in. It's probably the best of the
nonlicensed space games.
Bayushi Murai
>
> >5. Wing Commander
>
> I've heard this, but I've never even seen packs for sale, let alone
> played the game. How does it play?
>
It's sort of a beer-and-pretzels strategic CCG. [Wow, that's a strange
thought...]
A lot of fun if you don't take it too seriously. Sealed deck play is
great, especially since you can get two decks for a couple of bucks. I
can't possibly imagine organized tournaments of it though, but it's cool
for a night's gaming as you sit around trying to outmaneuver your
opponent and whack their carrier.
Donovan A. Willett
Wakefield) wrote:
>My spies inform me that, on 02 Aug 1998 02:07:25 GMT, ncas...@aol.com
>(NCascone), hiding under the bedcovers, scribbled in the following in
>their diary:
>
>>5. Wing Commander
>
>I've heard this, but I've never even seen packs for sale, let alone
>played the game. How does it play?
>
>--
>----------------------------------------------------------------
> Hida Serena * Crab Clan Quartermaster * Experienced
> http://www.gate.net/~raistw/ccgs/l5r.html rai...@gate.net
> CB+ S-- G+ R Y C E+ M T D++ K+ U++
If you ever played Star of the Guardians, it plays simularly. If
you have not, you have a carrier each and fought over positions in
space between. It was strictly two player with one side being the
humans and the other being the cats (and no, I don't feel like getting
up to find my cards to remember who they were).
It played alright (I played some playtest against Don Perrin, one
of the designers, and I bought some to play with the few around here
that played), but did have a few glitches. Most of all, it simply did
not the the sales it needed and fizzled like it's predessor (Star of
the Guardians).
Yoritomo Yosho
Mantis Clan Historian/Agitator
PDB6
"3. Jyhad/VtES (with card limits, including banned and restricted lists; after
all, it _is_ a WoTC game, and their playtesters haven't been the best)"
Nick, man, I'm telling you no-limits Jyhad is _so_ the way to go, especially
now that all the busted rules and cards have been officially fixed. You just
have to play it alot to get past the initial fear of degeneracy. CL does way
too much damage to the game as a whole and in reality does nothing to prevent
the really degenrate strategies. What CL Jyhad does do, however, is hamstring
perfectly viable deck strategies that completely upsets the balance of the
game. I played CL Jyhad for a year or so after it came out. Whan we switched
to NL, the game became infinitely better, and we're never goin' back.
Enough of my attempt to start a 2 newsgroup flame war :-)
Nick! Did you go to Origins this year? I was looking for you, but failed.
Doh.
Anyway, my favorite CCGs are:
1. Jyhad-The best strategic multi player CCG out there. The fact that the game
was designed and balanced to have no card limits makes deck building
possibilities endless, and the game is (with a few minor tweaks like the DCI No
Repeat Action rule and the recent errata fixing all the really busted cards)
incredibly balanced. Pure excellence.
2. Shawdowfist-One of the best balanced CCGs ever made, excepting a few klunker
cards (Dangerous Experiment, Vivesector), and incredibly fun. Can be very good
2 player, and very good multi player, except can bog down a great deal with
more than 4 players, and suffers from the "King Maker" effect, as it is a
complete free for all.
3. Magic-Still a really fun game. Sadly, it is really easy to fall behind in
the technological race, as they just keep on printing the damn cards. I was on
the cutting edge of deck technology when Tempest came out, but now I am so out
of the arms race. Doh. Luckily Jyhad and Shadowfist don't have this problem
:-)
4. Xena. Man, this game rocks. It is totally stupid and easy, but it is fun,
quick, and easy to play. There is a surprising amount of tactical depth in the
game (well, it is just like Magic, but for 8 year olds...). That, and it has
ass kicking women in leather. What's not to like?
5. L5R. Another fun game, as it has the cool samurai angle and good mechanics,
but at this point I am _so_ out of the game, I don't know what's going on (the
last time I played was at Origins last year with Nick...). I liked it alot
when it came out, though.
6. Mythos. Fun, just cause you get to say "Shubnigurath" and the like. Not a
real great game or anyhting, but has some good fun potential.
7. Dr. Who. This is the best game ever. In Bizzaro world.
The real bad games I have played are:
1. Dr. Who. This probably has the dubious fame of being the _worst_ designed
CCG ever. Really. Which one was worse? I was a big Dr. Who geek when I was
14, and was excited when this game was coming out, as I was filled with warm
feelings of nostalga. Man, did it _suck_. Not only was the game theme the
complete antithesis of the show theme (in the show, no one ever really fought
with anyone and it was all about cleverness. The game was little more than "My
monster beats up your monster."), but the mechanics were absolute trash and
there were zero thoughts of cost or balance.
2. Rage. Granted, I had alot of fun with this game for a while, but there is
no question that it was a very poorly designed game. No balance in design.
Rares just simply better than commons. Ultrapowerful "chase" cards that you
would play with just cause you had them. Very bad. On the upside, however,
you had "Entrail Rend".
3. Dune. The game had promise, as it had pretty clever ideas, but in practice,
it was a real crap fest. When it came out, I was involved in actual flame wars
with various cretins who decided that my reasons for why Dune sucked could be
argued down with insults, yet people still make the same points I was making
those months ago. Cracks me up.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
"Oskar Schindler es bueno.
Senor Burns es el Diablo!"
-Senor Spielbergo
NCascone
(Serena Wakefield) writes:
>
>>5. Wing Commander
>
>I've heard this, but I've never even seen packs for sale, let alone
>played the game. How does it play?
Each player is the Commander of a Carrier set in the WC PC game universe.
Between your carrier and the opponent's are 5 'Nav Points', connecting the two
carriers in a starlike pattern. At your disposal are fighter and bomber
squadrons, additional equipment with which to beef up your squadrons, expert
crew and pilots, and plenty of what you might call 'Battle Action' cards with
which to affect the outcome of enemy fighter encounters. Aside from those main
card types, there are cards which modify the Nav Points (perhaps putting an
asteroid field there, or a friendly capital ship), Luck cards (only one of each
type per deck), Pilot decorations, Secret Orders (which let you win in other
ways besides destroying the opposing Carrier), and more.
The best thing about Wing Commander was the Jyhad-like application of resources
to your board position. If you wanted to build a swarm deck, with lots of
little fighters attacking the opposing carrier in waves, you could do that. If
you lost a squadron or six with that deck, it would mean nothing. On the other
hand, you could make a slower deck that fielded strong fighters with good
pilots and extra weaponry, but the more 'medal points' you put into
constructing these squadrons, the more you stood to lose if they ever met with
misfortune.
I never got to play too much, but I thought it was an intriguingn design. Star
of the Guardians, which has been mentioned, was a sort of multiplayer version,
including home planets and other diplomatic cards in a larger card mix. The
art on WC was fair, that on SotG deplorable. Both these games, in my opinion,
were underplayed for their quality.
Darryl Veigel
>
> 3. Dune. The game had promise, as it had pretty clever ideas, but in practice,
> it was a real crap fest. When it came out, I was involved in actual flame wars
> with various cretins who decided that my reasons for why Dune sucked could be
> argued down with insults, yet people still make the same points I was making
> those months ago. Cracks me up.
>
you. I do remember contesting some of your opinions. My side of that
arguement felt very different from yours, if you can see that. I felt
your opinions were just as ill founded, but I don't need to continue
posting about it months later. I'm really sorry you feel so bad about
the game, but I see it steadily growing. At Rivercon in Louisville, this
weekend, I gave 21 demos for the game and every one of the people liked
it and wanted to play more. In fact, we are discussing a local league.
Of course, Rivercon is a Science Fiction con, so the people at it may be
approaching the game from a different context. They may not be hardened
gamers and be more interested in flavor. Or it may be as I have said
before that the learning curve is such for Dune that most people don't
get it until the have it demoed. Look me up in the FRPG booth at Gen
Con, if you want to, and let me show you the current state of the game,
after the first expansion. Maybe I can change your mind. Or, if you feel
that would be a waste of time, maybe you would like to come and shout
insults at me to make up for the insults I don't remember posting at
you?
--
Beware of deals with redheads!
Darryl Veigel
House Veigelis, Harkonnen Ally
Arrakis, Shadow of the Realm
Amber Playtest Coordinator
Nebula Games
The Game is all there is. Life is a game.
Sha'iich Desert Twister
(1) Magic: The Gathering [yes MtG, nobody listed it but aoh well]
(2) Babylon 5
(3) Star Trek [yes Star Trek, everybody hates it but me...]
(4) Middle Earth
(5) Star Wars
(6) Legened of the five Rings
Nothing else interesting...
--
This message was sent to you be El-ad Amir
Better known as Desert Twister
Information gem: 3 out of 4 people is 75% of the population.
PDB6
"Yes, I was one of those cretins. Although I don't remember insulting you. I do
remember contesting some of your opinions."
Man. I didn't say _everyone_ involved in the discussion were insulting
cretins. You certainly weren't. There were lots of people involved in those
threads, and while most of them were perfectly amiable, some of them were
abusive idiots. In fact, as I remember, you were generally pretty reasonable,
certainly coherent, and stuck to the point at hand. However, there were
certain individuals involved in said discussions that were, in fact, full
fledged troll goons. The Dune threads I was involved in degenerated into
pointless flaming, I never started any of it, and was assaulted and insulted
with little or no provication. It was pretty funny, actually.
"Or, if you feel that would be a waste of time, maybe you would like to come
and shout insults at me to make up for the insults I don't remember posting at
you?"
Again, did I say "Darryl Veigel was a cretin who flamed me"? No. I was making
a general comment about the history of discussion about Dune on this newsgroup.
Flames were had. Insults were flung. By you? At me? No. By someone?
Certainly.
I'm not quite sure why you felt I aimed that comment at you in particular, as
you and I both know you weren't involved in the flaming, and pleny of other
people were involved in the discussion.
Petri Wessman
My personal top 5 list in CCGs:
1) Jyhad/VTES: the best multiplayer CCG I've tried. Period. No card
limits, even in tournament play, which says a lot about the
balance. Best with 5-6 players. Very strategic game, requires
long-term planning.
2) On the Edge: great mechanics and wonderful game world. Plays best
in multiplayer, though it does have some "kingmaker" problems and
the best cards tend to be rare. Highly recommended!
3) Babylon 5: interesting multiplayer design, the only "TV/film
license" game that I've run into that's actually a good
game. Closer to INWO than the Deckmaster games. Strictly a 4-player
game.
4) INWO: the more I play this, the more I like it. Confusing until you
know the card texts and most common effects, after that it's great
fun. Strictly multiplayer.
5) Netrunner: the best 2-player design I've run into. Fun and
tactical, with an interesting cyberpunk backdrop. Wish I could play
this more often.
Other games I've tried:
- Rage: fun and fast-paced, but the most broken set of rules that I've
ever seen. Major design glitch here. Hoping that FRPG's new version
of this is more playable, I like the WoD werewolf game background.
- Star Trek: absolute drek. Tried it a few times and was
appalled. Only confirms my theory that all "Star Trek" games
(computer or otherwise) are crap.
- Star Wars: playable, but the rarity system is abysmal. Any game that
has "power rares" had better be damn good in order for me to play
it. This one isn't (and On the Edge is).
- Dune: played two games so far, and... well, not bad, but tends to
degenerate to a race to see who can bring out more cards on the
table. I love the Dune books, but this game... well, "nice try". The
bidding system is nice, though.
- Magic: if it wasn't surrounded by obnoxious "Magic player" types,
this game might be so-so playable. As is, the combination of
attitude-impaired players and over-simplistic gameplay turns me
off. I like games that have depth, sorry.
- L5R: better than Magic, but too much of a Magic clone design-wise
for me to really appreciate it. Why design Yet Another Magic, this
time with an oriental feel? Well, I guess that sort of thing
sells. The "storyline" expansion system is nice, though.
//Petri
Darryl Veigel
>
> Darryl Veigel wrote:
> "Yes, I was one of those cretins. Although I don't remember insulting you. I do
> remember contesting some of your opinions."
>
> Man. I didn't say _everyone_ involved in the discussion were insulting
> cretins. You certainly weren't.
SNIP
> I'm not quite sure why you felt I aimed that comment at you in particular, as
> you and I both know you weren't involved in the flaming, and pleny of other
> people were involved in the discussion.
Sorry. That discussion was very frustrating to me. It was my first
experience at anything of that sort. I had previously used the net
mainly for professional email and browsing. I guess you hit a nerve.
I retract my earlier post.
Eric Plante
1-Guardian
2-B5
3-Middle-Earth
4-BattleTech
5-MtG
6-L5R
7-Monty Python and the Holy Grail*
8-LBS**
9-Netrunner***
*It's not a top 10 best CCG but I don't play 10 games anyway.
**I played only one game until now and it was not finished
(I couldn't rivalised anyway) so, the position in my list
is probably temporary.
***I don't actualy play it(That's way it's the last CCG on my list) but
I played in the past and it was interesting.
Bryant Durrell
1. Shadowfist. Nothing compares, for me. It has solid two player
play value, and the multiplayer game is outstanding. The thing
I love about it is that the basic rules are very very simple;
there aren't a lot of card types, and there aren't a lot of
complex rules about when you can play what. All the complexity
comes from the interaction of a simple ruleset and the card text.
It's an outstanding achievement in design.
2. LBS. I've played a couple of games, and they were fun. I find
that FRPG games have too many card types and tend to be more
about what you can't play when than I like, but LBS isn't half bad.
3. Magic. I don't even own any cards anymore, but I have fond memories.
4. Mythos. I liked this quite a bit, and I happily play when my
friends lend me decks.
5. Jyhad. Played once or twice, and I enjoyed it OK, but not enough
to take the time to get skilled at it.
--
Bryant Durrell [] dur...@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell
[----------------------------------------------------------------------------]
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearranging their prejudices." -- William James
Jasper Phillips
anymore (well, I don't even get a chance to play Shadowfist anymore :-( ).
1. Shadowfist, Easily. Very elegant rules, excellent balance, lots
of variety, and lots of action. It's a pity Jose was such a poor
businessman they went bankrupt. If any game should be revived,
this is it.
2. Jyhad. Great balance (especially post 7/7), lots of variety,
and great fun to play.
3. LBS. Fixed most of the problem I thought L5R had, although I
still don't like the inevitable ganging up that comes from the
way allies are declared. I love the theme, although I wonder
about the balance in a few spots. In the end it's hard to
judge a Rolling Thunder Release until it's rolled enough to actually
be the size of a normal opening set.
4. Doomtown. Fun theme, and fun to play. Sometimes the game takes
too long though, in particular since a few of the factions do better
if they just sit on their ass. It's also a pity that they weren't able
to work the poker angle more, and include bidding, bluffing, etc.
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`
ShadoJakk
1) B5...my favorite show..and the game is a EXCELLENT translation to a card
game...and its just STARTING!
2) Overpower...YES...OP! i actually like this..games dont usually take
long..there is LOT more strategy in it than there was before,as there have been
several new card types that effect play,and lets face it..very VERY few games
actually have had Seven Expansions! Its fun but yet it there is enough strategy
there if your willing to put in the time to learn it
3)DoomTown...A new Game..but a fun one..the poker system is interesting and
fun..sometimes a pain..but the flavor and setting is enjoyable..besides..we get
to kill kenny!! ;)
4) L5R...i have spent HUNDREDS of dollars on this game..yet have played only a
few games..mainly due to the fact NO ONE plays where i live. Sigh. I stopped
buying the game with Crimson and Jade because of that..but i would love to play
it.
5) Another unusual Game..one i have played only a few times..but
liked..Highlander..simple..but enjoyable..it actually plays like a
swordfight...and thats what i enjoy about it. Keeps in the spirt of the source
material(wich i like) and has a novel approach to its game mechanic
6) Jyhad. No..do NOT mean V:TES...i mean JYHAD...before all the revision
garbage...its a FUN game...and you think all the Vampire RPG's would actually
like it..it captures the source material brilliantly.
7)Rage...believe it or not..i never had problems with the broken cards...Mainly
played from the initial release...and it was good bloody fun =)
8) Magic...a game with lots of good memories..but im GLAD im out of it...thank
GOD!!! but then again...it did buy my wonderful computer that im using to type
this! =D
Fun..and you can find players..but sometimes a real pain.
9)Star Trek...actually..i dont enjoy this game a whole lot..but alot of my
friends do...and if they all play..they drag me into games..sigh..spent WAY too
much money on it..too many rules revisions without innovative gameplay..but its
a fun social occasion to be with friends..so i suffer thru it ;)
10)Netrunner...before you YELL at me..for it being in tenth place...thats only
because i HAVNT played it yet!! but i am VERY interested in doing so...And i
believe i will be doing so in the near future. I have read the rules..and i
enjoy the game setup. After a few games im sure i will be a NRaddict(not like
that is a Bad thing....)
Honarable Mention...Guardians...a good game..but sadly deceased..RIP miss you!
Games i TRULY HATE!!
STAR WARS!!! yes yes...mock me..i like the movies(less than i did as a kid..but
i do like them) BUT THIS GAME IS WEAK! Im sorry..games that require you to
spend LARGE ammounts of cash to get power rares only for them to end up
discarded during the game without being played????? Sorry...I know it will sell
becuase its Star Wars..but this game is just bad.
MechWarrior..Same as above..when i played..you goal was to destroy you
opponents stockpiles(aka the draw deck)...so when they did damage..you lose
cards out of your deck and when you run out game over...not enjoyable...same as
Star Wars above...and i ALSO like Mechwarrior and Battletech...so this was very
disappointing.
Hyborian Gates...a total rip off..and im glad i recognized it..this can also be
said of Spellfire as well..both of wich im glad i didnt get sucked into. Tried
both..and hated them. Glad they are gone.
Thats it! thanks for letting me Rant n Rave!
NCascone
<or...@termiitti.akumiitti.fi> writes:
>L5R: better than Magic, but too much of a Magic clone design-wise
> for me to really appreciate it. Why design Yet Another Magic, this
> time with an oriental feel? Well, I guess that sort of thing
> sells. The "storyline" expansion system is nice, though.
Sorry, gang, one too many people foisting this tired old attempt at insight.
Having played both, I assure the uninitiated reader that L5R is similar to MtG
in that you create your deck from a collection which you have amassed through
buying cards in packs similar to baseball cards. Also, there is a similar
effect that one calls 'tapping' and the other calls 'bowing'; these are merely
indications that you have used a card during that turn and may not re-use it
until your next turn. Aside from those two rather superficial similarities, I
am at a loss to explain how a game with no fewer than 7 different win
conditions (are there more? I count Honor, Dishonor, Military, Walls, Scrolls,
Kachiko E2, and Dashmar; yes, the final two are different from normal Honor) is
a 'clone' of one which has, basically 2 (kill your opponent, or drive him out
of cards ... is that really an option these days? been awhile since I've
played ... if not, reduce that number to _1_).
My mind is wide open, however; if someone can show me how L5R is a
'Magic-clone', besides just parroting what seems to be the common wisdom
(that's the trouble with common wisdom, it's too common), I'd enjoy being
Enlightened (whoops, make that _8_ victory conditions).
Also, L5R players are way, way cooler than MtG players.
PDB6
"Sorry. That discussion was very frustrating to me. It was my first
experience at anything of that sort. I had previously used the net
mainly for professional email and browsing. I guess you hit a nerve.
I retract my earlier post."
Doh! What a bad discussion to get introduced into usnet through! Sorry about
that.
I assure you that I am a generally very nice and reasonable person. I just
don't like Dune :-)
Ryan S. Dancey
>My mind is wide open, however; if someone can show me how L5R is a
>'Magic-clone', besides just parroting what seems to be the common wisdom
>(that's the trouble with common wisdom, it's too common), I'd enjoy being
>Enlightened (whoops, make that _8_ victory conditions).
I think the "primary" clone-like attributes are the resource
management sytem and the fact that the game is a creature/enhancement
game. Those two things are a pretty big chunk of the Magic mechanics.
In fact, if you could add a few pages to the Magic rulebook to explain
honor, and you removed the Imperial Favor concept from the game, you
could probably come up with a fairly easy way to play L5R cards
against a Magic deck... Just assume that all the Personalities are
X/X creatures where "X" is the Force.
But I agree with you - mechanics do not make a game. Chess and
Checkers share a similar "mechanic" (moving pieces around an 8x8
board), but they are vastly different >games<. L5R and Magic have
very little actual game-play in common, and in actual use, their
mechanics are substantially different as well.
I know Magic clones when I see 'em - and I've seen a whole lot. In
fact, I know of at least one game (I will not reveal the name to
protect the innocent) that was mostly designed outside the company
that published it. When it was released, there was much hue and cry
about the game being a "clone" of Magic, which the publishers didn't
understand. Their game was radically different from Magic, both in
content and in direction. It had very unique mechanics and it was
superficially nothing like the fairly simple game that sits at the
core of Magic. In fact, the publishers had >never< played Magic
themsleves and considered it a fairly unsophisticated game with overly
complex cards and external rulings.
However, after having heard these disparaging remarks one time too
many, the publishers asked someone knowlegable to explain them. To
their horror, that person sat down, and taught them how to play Magic
using nothing but the terminology from their >own game<...
Now that's a clone.
Ryan S. Dancey
Brand Manager, Five Rings Publishing Group
Wizards of the Coast
Darryl Veigel
>
> Darryl wrote:
> "Sorry. That discussion was very frustrating to me. It was my first
> experience at anything of that sort. I had previously used the net
> mainly for professional email and browsing. I guess you hit a nerve.
> I retract my earlier post."
>
> Doh! What a bad discussion to get introduced into usnet through! Sorry about
> that.
>
> I assure you that I am a generally very nice and reasonable person. I just
> don't like Dune :-)
I can live with that. I love then game, but I'm old and odd compared to
most gamers. So we're cool. End of discussion.
Voltron LePew
>>L5R: better than Magic, but too much of a Magic clone design-wise
>> for me to really appreciate it. Why design Yet Another Magic, this
>> time with an oriental feel? Well, I guess that sort of thing
>> sells. The "storyline" expansion system is nice, though.
>Sorry, gang, one too many people foisting this tired old attempt at insight.
>Nicholas Cascone
>L5R(1.1d): CN--- S(LA) (I'm the definition!) G++ R+ Y+ C+++(+) E! M- !T D+ !K
>U+
>You want clever? Send money. I don't work for free.
PREACH brother!
Here's my take:
I played Magic for about two years.
Then I started playing L5R. I've played it for about two years.
I -love- L5R.
I **HATE** Magic.
Any questions?
--Tamagotchi, madcap ronin jester
Zen Faulkes
Ryan S. Dancey replied to Nicholas Cascone:
>> My mind is wide open, however; if someone can show me how L5R is a
>> 'Magic-clone' [snip], I'd enjoy being Enlightened (whoops, make that
>> _8_ victory conditions).
>
> In fact, if you could add a few pages to the Magic rulebook to explain
> honor, and you removed the Imperial Favor concept from the game, you
> could probably come up with a fairly easy way to play L5R cards
> against a Magic deck... Just assume that all the Personalities are
> X/X creatures where "X" is the Force.
Jason Schiederman pulled off the reverse trick neatly. He wrote a
two page article in InQuest explaining how to play L5R using M:tG
cards.
The problem with arguing something is derivative is that there's
usually a core of truth to the accusation. But if you go this route,
you end up saying that Star Wars is "just" a Flash Gordon ripoff,
Raiders of the Lost Ark is "just" a rehash of old Republic serials,
Babylon 5 is "just" Star Trek: Deep Space Nine or Lord of the Rings
with the serial numbers filed off, and the entire history of Western
thought is "just" a string of philosophers adding footnotes to Plato.
You overlook a lot that way.
Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar
mickel ernst knight
Nick's right. It was kinda stupid to say NTG and L5R are in any way
similar. Heck, while playing L5R dring games we 'tap' the keg and 'bow'
profusely to each other. So, I guess boozing and MtG are very similar as
well.
Mickel Knight
On 4 Aug 1998, NCascone wrote:
> <or...@termiitti.akumiitti.fi> writes:
>
> >L5R: better than Magic, but too much of a Magic clone design-wise
> > for me to really appreciate it. Why design Yet Another Magic, this
> > time with an oriental feel? Well, I guess that sort of thing
> > sells. The "storyline" expansion system is nice, though.
>
> Sorry, gang, one too many people foisting this tired old attempt at insight.
> Having played both, I assure the uninitiated reader that L5R is similar to MtG
> in that you create your deck from a collection which you have amassed through
> buying cards in packs similar to baseball cards. Also, there is a similar
> effect that one calls 'tapping' and the other calls 'bowing'; these are merely
> indications that you have used a card during that turn and may not re-use it
> until your next turn. Aside from those two rather superficial similarities, I
> am at a loss to explain how a game with no fewer than 7 different win
> conditions (are there more? I count Honor, Dishonor, Military, Walls, Scrolls,
> Kachiko E2, and Dashmar; yes, the final two are different from normal Honor) is
> a 'clone' of one which has, basically 2 (kill your opponent, or drive him out
> of cards ... is that really an option these days? been awhile since I've
> played ... if not, reduce that number to _1_).
>
> My mind is wide open, however; if someone can show me how L5R is a
> 'Magic-clone', besides just parroting what seems to be the common wisdom
> (that's the trouble with common wisdom, it's too common), I'd enjoy being
> Enlightened (whoops, make that _8_ victory conditions).
>
> Also, L5R players are way, way cooler than MtG players.
>
>
Serena Wakefield
juicy tidbit from ...
> The problem with arguing something is derivative is that there's
>usually a core of truth to the accusation. But if you go this route,
>you end up saying that Star Wars is "just" a Flash Gordon ripoff,
Actually, it's "just" a ripoff of Akira Kurosawa, but that's neither
here nor there. >:D
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hida Serena * Crab Clan Quartermaster * Experienced
http://www.gate.net/~raistw/ E-mail address on webpage
JoshnMolly
>here nor there. >:D
As is L5R, ironically enough. Actually, having seen "The Hidden Fortress," I
can say it's different enough from Star Wars that Lucas didn't have to worry
about a lawsuit. Now if he had included a scene where C-3PO and R2D2 drew
straws to see who got to rape Princess Leia, then Kurosawa might have had a
case. :-) That'd probably blow the PG rating, though.
Hitomi Josh Timmers
Dragon Clan Historian (ABD)
Robin Parmar
What you should play is dictated by:
1. What everyone else around you plays. No good playing a game for
which you can find no opponents.
2. What genres and settings you're into. Fans of Tolkien will love
Middle Earth while most other players find it slow and boring.
3. Which games are good! Most are dire crap.
I would recommend:
1. On the Edge. This game has four full sets of cards released,
excellent support from the publisher, and *really really* cheap
prices. It's simple to learn but has a wealth of strategies to master.
And it's just darn fun. But there will be no more cards.
2. Shadowfist. Some of the mechanics are similar to Magic (the way
instants work, for example) but the back story is infinitely better,
the art is unsurpassed, and the overriding joie de vivre contagious.
As I've argued at length elsewhere, this may be the best multi-player
CCG ever. Wonderful if you're a fan of Hong Kong action movies or even
if you're not! Again, the game is out of print.
3. Mythos. Very simple and focused more on storytelling than combat.
If you have an overwhelming urge to summon Cthulhu this one's for you.
The latest set, New Aeon, is set in the present day and introduces
many X-Files-like elements: UFOs, time machine, the Pentagon, Cthulhu
for President. Lots of fun!
4. INWO. A crazy satirical game of betraying friends and drinking...
coffee. You don't need that many cards to play and the entire Factory
Set can be bought for as little as $30. Unfortunately serious game
play revolves around degenerate combos and first-turn wins. If you
want to *be* Cthulhu, check out INWO.
5. Middle Earth. A complicated strategic game that plays more like a
wargame or RPG at times. Be prepared to buy a lot of cards and have a
lot of fun if you are a fan of Tolkien. Combat and other actions
require dice rolls; this turns off some people. The player interaction
is less complex and the pace slower. But it's got outstanding artwork
and nine dark riders. Can't argue with that.
If you're a Magic player you're probably used to spending an awful lot
of money on your favourite pastime. On the Edge and Shadowfist can be
played with a starter or two. Mythos requires a lot more cards to make
a playable deck, or just buy the standard edition double starter. INWO
has a factory set available, which you can sometimes locate at bargain
basement prices. Middle Earth is expensive as you have to have lots of
matching cards.
See my web site under Interests--Games for a detailed look at these,
and other, games.
+--------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| robin, co-ordinator | <Word falling -- Photo falling -- |
| Grey Room cell | Time falling -- Break through in |
| ro...@execulink.com | Grey Room> : W.S. Burroughs |
+--------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| www.execulink.com/~robin/ |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
DrN...@hotmail.com
zfau...@bio1.lan.mcgill.ca wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> The problem with arguing something is derivative is that there's
> usually a core of truth to the accusation. But if you go this route,
> you end up saying that Star Wars is "just" a Flash Gordon ripoff,
> Babylon 5 is "just" Star Trek: Deep Space Nine or Lord of the Rings
> with the serial numbers filed off, and the entire history of Western
> thought is "just" a string of philosophers adding footnotes to Plato.
> You overlook a lot that way.
Well put! I may not always agree with you, but in this case you have
convinced me to stop saying: "I don't much care for L5R; it's too much like
Magic" and instead say: "I don't care for L5R. Combat is too frusterating;
kind of like Magic."
FRPG may well get one last L5R purchase out of me; I like to keep an
enlightenment deck on hand, and that HE3 Monk Starter is just too good to pass
up.
Take Care
Nate
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Alena "Babi" Slechta
Eric Plante
those are my favorite CCG so, I feel that I should correct that.
Eric Plante <pla...@cam.org> wrote:
: Here's my top CCG List:
: 1-Guardian
It's simply the best strategic CCG I know of and, when I play, I really
fell like sending troops at the battlefield since you really move
stacks of creatures at the terrain, it's not an abstract notion like
most games. The art is also astounding and the layout of the art is also
very cool. The expensions were not very balanced and the wording a bit
sloppy but nothing is perfect.
I admit that what brought me to the game is a Theme: Knights. The picture
of the paladin was simply too sublime, I had to try the game.
: 2-B5
Beside the fact that Agenda's are too powerfull for their cost and the
fact that the way to heal neutralized character is not logical(especialy
when you want to fully heal your ambassador) at all, it has a great
system and a lot of interaction between players. Being a fan of the show
help liking the game.
: 3-Middle-Earth
It takes a long time to play but it worths it. I'm a fan of fantasy games
and this one really gives me the feeling of sending a party on missions to
gather wonderful items. The map and choosing your path really add to the
feeling.
: 4-BattleTech
It has everything I hate in a game but I like it. I can't explain why.
: 5-MtG
It was the first, it plays quickly, it's fantasy style and the art is
good and it's fun to play and no two games are the same. Creatures are way
too fragile and there are too many counterspells for my liking, though.
Its worst problems are Tom Wylie and his habit to change the rules each
month and the number of erratas. Playing as the card is written as no more
meaning in MtG, when playing a card, you never know when you'll need to
consult the catalog of erratas
: 6-L5R
Fantasy style, I like the setting and it has a great system. Honor win is
cheesy and honor requirement is often frustrating. There are also too many
cheesy cards for my liking but as I said, nothing is perfect and it's
still fun to play.
: 7-Monty Python and the Holy Grail*
Knights is my favorite theme and it's fantasy style. The game is fun to
play and it also has the feeling of sending a party on a mission. I'm not
sure I like the question cards but I sur like the songs. The Taunts are
probably too powerful, though. I didn't like the film either.
8-LBS**
I still didn't play the game enough to have a good opinion but one thing
I'm certain is that Duals are very, VERY dangerous. I had a 5K personality
dueling a 2K personality and lost in 2 rounds without dealing any damage.
Eric PLante
: 9-Netrunner***
: *It's not a top 10 best CCG but I don't play 10 games anyway.
: **I played only one game until now and it was not finished
: (I couldn't rivalised anyway) so, the position in my list
: is probably temporary.
: ***I don't actualy play it(That's way it's the last CCG on my list) but
: I played in the past and it was interesting.
--
Eric Plante(pla...@cam.org)
http://www.cam.org/~plantee/Home.HTM
(Dragon Dice, Guardian & Dicemaster)
dennis whitcomb
>
> 1. On the Edge
> 2. L5R
> 3. Jyhad/VtES (with card limits, including banned and restricted lists; after
> all, it _is_ a WoTC game, and their playtesters haven't been the best)
> 5. Wing Commander
> 6. Dune
> 7. INWO
> 8. Shadowfist
>
> That's about it; sorry I couldn't get to 10. LBS might wind up on here, after
> I try it out. Haven't tried B5 or Doomtown (really, I haven't tried anything
> new except Dune).
>
> Nicholas Cascone
> L5R(1.1d): CN--- S(LA) (I'm the definition!) G++ R+ Y+ C+++(+) E! M- !T D+ !K
> U+
> You want clever? Send money. I don't work for free.
Wow, someone who played WC. How is it?
zon...@wgn.net
>juicy tidbit from ...
>
>>usually a core of truth to the accusation. But if you go this route,
>>you end up saying that Star Wars is "just" a Flash Gordon ripoff,
>
>here nor there. >:D
Christ. The "Star Wars" series, without the special effects, is
comprised mainly of some pretty lame screenplays, simplistic ideas and
poor acting, except for James Earl Jones' fantastic voicework. Don't
sell Kurosawa so short.
Joe Fulgham
Oh please. Go read "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell and you'll
realize the great story behind Star Wars. Don't confuse age-old stories of
heroes and villains with "simplistic ideas".
Poor acting? I won't try to defend that one though. "<whine> But I have
to head into Takashi station to pick up some power converters..."
Joe Fulgham | pu...@holycow.com
zon...@wgn.net
>realize the great story behind Star Wars. Don't confuse age-old stories of
>heroes and villains with "simplistic ideas".
>
> Poor acting? I won't try to defend that one though. "<whine> But I have
>to head into Takashi station to pick up some power converters..."
That story was so deep I almost got my shoes wet. Darth is Luke's
father, Leia's his sister, Chewbacca's his long-lost dog...
Damn thing's like a daytime soap opera. At least it's far better than
"Deep Space 90210".
Yeah, there's a great story BEHIND Star Wars, but the movies only
touch the surface of that aspect. Next you're gonna tell me Van Damme
got robbed at the Oscars... :)
-Z
Billy
On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 10:43:28 -0400, hidden microphones recorded this
juicy tidbit from ...
>
>>> The problem with arguing something is derivative is that there's
>>>usually a core of truth to the accusation. But if you go this route,
>>>you end up saying that Star Wars is "just" a Flash Gordon ripoff,
>>
>>Actually, it's "just" a ripoff of Akira Kurosawa, but that's neither
>>here nor there. >:D
>
>Christ. The "Star Wars" series, without the special effects, is
>comprised mainly of some pretty lame screenplays, simplistic ideas and
>poor acting, except for James Earl Jones' fantastic voicework. Don't
>sell Kurosawa so short.
Star Wars in a nut shell: (Jedi) Knight in shining armor(not
really but hey) saves damsel in distress(Leia), rebel(Han Solo) turns
good, evil is defeated, the hero has to resist temptation, etc.
The previous poster that mentioned Joseph Cambell(although I
can't stand him because my ninth grade english teacher had us watch
his videos constantly) was right on target. Star Wars is in no way
original, lame, or simplistic. It is a remake of a classic
hero/villian story with the above elements. There are tons of
different movies like this because people enjoy this story. Countless
books, movies, plays, etc have been based on this 'simple' outline of
a story. But that doesn't make the work itself lame or simplistic.
IMHO the two main draws of the movies were effects and
relation to the characters. No one gets to really know a character in
a normal movie but in the trilogy we grow up with Luke and watch him
mature. We watch as the relationships between Han, Luke, and Leia
fluctuate. We say goodbye to Old Ben. We watch the rebels win, then
lose, then win again in the end.
From a picture of the prequels I saw in a magazine it appears
they're going to start with Anakin being a very young boy. I can't
wait to watch him grow, mature, and train/fight with Ben and Yoda.
And finally to watch him turn to the darkside, to see why he did it
and how it directly affected his friends and family.
Anyone who watches SW and says what the above poster said is
just watching the pretty ships go boom. Look for a meaning, dare I
say it, a plot. And a really strong metaphor to an age old and always
popular myth.
PS. I apologise for the bandwith waste but some people need to be
enlightened every once in a while.
-Billy
Joe Fulgham
>> Oh please. Go read "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell and you'll
>>realize the great story behind Star Wars. Don't confuse age-old stories
of
>>heroes and villains with "simplistic ideas".
>>
>> Poor acting? I won't try to defend that one though. "<whine> But I
have
>>to head into Takashi station to pick up some power converters..."
>
>That story was so deep I almost got my shoes wet. Darth is Luke's
>father, Leia's his sister, Chewbacca's his long-lost dog...
If you're going to put it that way...
Hamlet: His Uncle killed his dad and married his mom to become king. He
mopes and bitches a bit and then everyone dies.
Romeo And Juliet: The kids love each other. Their families hate each
other. Then the kids die.
Moby Dick: This guy's obsessed about this whale. Then he dies trying to
kill it.
Hmm... perhaps you don't like Star Wars because the main characters don't
die at the end. But if you think that they haven't, look at it this way:
The Star Wars/ESB/RotJ series isn't about Luke, or Leia, or Han or even the
Rebels. It's a story of the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. And *he* dies
at the end.
>Damn thing's like a daytime soap opera. At least it's far better than
>"Deep Space 90210".
Soaps tend to touch the surface of the great stories, but are too
self-indulgent to pull it off. The truly fatal flaw of the Soaps is that
they don't have an ending, thus denying the "Beginning/Middle/End" of all
good stories.
The same flaw is true of most television programming, with the one
exception of Babylon 5 - it's going to end, and it has been planned since
the beginning. That is SO cool.
>Yeah, there's a great story BEHIND Star Wars, but the movies only
>touch the surface of that aspect. Next you're gonna tell me Van Damme
>got robbed at the Oscars... :)
Hey, I didn't defend the acting. And I happend to enjoy "Bloodsport", for
many of the same reasons that the story of Star Wars appealed to me. Hero
fights against tremendous odds, overcomes and doesn't just win, but wins
heroically.
Great acting? Hardly. But enjoyable stories nonetheless.
Joe Fulgham | Hitomi Pukku | pu...@holycow.com
Dragon Clan Shugenja * Master of the Web
http://www.holycow.com/l5r/
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Questor
zon...@wgn.net wrote:
>> Oh please. Go read "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell and you'll
>>realize the great story behind Star Wars. Don't confuse age-old stories of
>>heroes and villains with "simplistic ideas".
>>
>> Poor acting? I won't try to defend that one though. "<whine> But I have
>>to head into Takashi station to pick up some power converters..."
>
>That story was so deep I almost got my shoes wet. Darth is Luke's
>father, Leia's his sister, Chewbacca's his long-lost dog...
>
>Damn thing's like a daytime soap opera. At least it's far better than
>"Deep Space 90210".
>
>Yeah, there's a great story BEHIND Star Wars, but the movies only
>touch the surface of that aspect. Next you're gonna tell me Van Damme
>got robbed at the Oscars... :)
>
>-Z
What???? Van Damme didn't win?!?!?!?! This is an outrage!
Doji Questor
Crane Clan Wiseass