[L5R] Ninja Stronghold Ability
Nlupu
Ninja Stronghold. It mainly focuses around the sneak attack + action preventing
card.
The cards I can think of are deadly terrain, night battle, stroms of war,
crushing attack, secret passage, and Inexp. Hida Kisada's Ability.
Billy
Deadly ground: It doesn't end the battle, just doesn't let you take
actions. You can still use the stronghold.
Night Battle: Same thing, you can use the action.
Crushing Attack: Doesn't it end the battle immediately? If so it's
over :(
Kisada: Same thing :(
Also, you can use it with no units at the battle(since you
wouldn't be able to use it then normally). It's a REALLY good
ability.
Bayushi Ansatsu * Scorpion Clan Shadow
-Billy
ve...@usit.net
IrukaTsuru
>crushing attack, secret passage, and Inexp. Hida Kisada's Ability.
Deadly Ground will not prevent it as all DG does is prevent actions.
Night Battle, ditto.
Storms of War would work because there is an additional requirement, not a
prohibition against actions.
Crushing Attack goes to resolution so it works.
Kisada, ditto.
Secret Entrance would not work.
Also, Tsuchi-Do and Armor of Earth are effective measures to prevent being sent
home.
Chris Berger
>
> On 4 Feb 1999 05:51:17 GMT, nl...@aol.com (Nlupu) wrote:
>
> >I'm trying to figure out when you can and can't use the battle ability of the
> >Ninja Stronghold. It mainly focuses around the sneak attack + action preventing
> >card.
> >crushing attack, secret passage, and Inexp. Hida Kisada's Ability.
>
> actions. You can still use the stronghold.
>
> Night Battle: Same thing, you can use the action.
>
> Crushing Attack: Doesn't it end the battle immediately? If so it's
> over :(
>
> Kisada: Same thing :(
>
> Also, you can use it with no units at the battle(since you
> wouldn't be able to use it then normally). It's a REALLY good
> ability.
>
describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
I want to know what moron thought this would be a good idea for a
stronghold.
-Chris Berger
Mantis Clan Cynic
Edward Hsiao
this battle, or anything like that.
Andy Morris
Chris Berger wrote:
> What do you mean, "it's a really good ability"? Good doesn't begin to
> describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
> I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
> stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
> out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
>
> I want to know what moron thought this would be a good idea for a
> stronghold.
Sounds like someone has a limited amount of imagination. I think this is a very good
addition for a stronghold ability. It forces people to make something other than a
mindless military deck or simply a robot honor runner. There's actually a NEW threat
to deal with. Something you will have to use different tactics to beat.
Andy Morris
Shosuro Taberu
McD...@earthlink.net
Stanley Kuo
> describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
> I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
> stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
> out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
>
> I want to know what moron thought this would be a good idea for a
> stronghold.
>
> Mantis Clan Cynic
I hope you can reserve your judgement until you play some games against it.
Sure it's a very good ability but it's about as good as old Scorpion SH with
province strength of 11. Refusing to play against it will not fix the problem.
Ninja decks will be prevalent for awhile but like all other SH the fad will
past and we will see less of them. Make it a challenge to find a way to beat
Ninja. You will find that it's not that hard to do.
--
"Now the is the time for action, not prophecy. If you wish to know the future,
you can taste it upon my blade!"
"Death comes quickly to those who least expected it" -Doji Jubei
Doji Jubei 3F 6C 4fh 10g 3ph Samurai * Double Chi * Ninja * Unique
May only join Crane or Ninja
Crane Clan Iaijutsu Duelist * Master of One Sword Technique * Ninja Shadow
Warrior
Reaction: Challenge any personality performing an action to a duel that can't
be refused.
Open: Doji Jubei gains +4 Chi til end of turn. This can be done once per turn.
Battle: Unbow Doji Jubei and move him into this battle.
L5R CCG Code: L5R(1.1c) CN++++ S(LA)+ G+ R+ !!Y C+ E-- M- T-- D+ K! U++
L5R RPG Code: L5R(R1.1) PC++ GT:! P CN+++ S+ G R+ Y+ C CG++ U++
Trevor Stone
Andy Morris <mcd...@earthlink.net> said:
>> What do you mean, "it's a really good ability"? Good doesn't begin to
>> describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
>> I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
>> stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
>> out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
>>
believe that the way to combat speed decks is with cards to slow them down, not
by giving everyone fast stuff. I prefer games in which you've got a chance to
build to something, otherwise it's whoever can knock out a few provinces first.
>> I want to know what moron thought this would be a good idea for a
>> stronghold.
>
>Sounds like someone has a limited amount of imagination.
It's not too hard to deal with. Your games will take a little longer, but if
you've got enough stuff in your deck, you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
I played against a pretty good Ninja deck the other day, and just generated
personalities faster than he could knock them off. After a while I had enough
to take him out, and with Deadly Ground he didn't have a hope of saving the
provinces in battle.
>I think this
>is a very good
>addition for a stronghold ability. It forces people to make something
>other than a
>mindless military deck or simply a robot honor runner. There's actually
>a NEW threat
>to deal with. Something you will have to use different tactics to beat.
>
Actually, as far as I can tell, Ninja can't do a whole lot against a mindless
honor runner. Unless they can get an early Damesh, a mindless honor deck will
likely bring out personalites for full and not care whether the Ninja kill
them.
=-=-=-=-= Trevor Stone =-=-= a.k.a. Flwyd =-=-= tstone @ nyx . net =-=-=-=-=
Computer science, eclectic philosophy, games, wits, esotericism, weird hats.
http://robin.ml.org/~tstone/ Thou artless milk-livered apple-john!
A mushroom cloud has no silver lining.
James Anderson
wrote:
>It's not too hard to deal with. Your games will take a little longer, but if
>you've got enough stuff in your deck, you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
>I played against a pretty good Ninja deck the other day, and just generated
>personalities faster than he could knock them off. After a while I had enough
>to take him out, and with Deadly Ground he didn't have a hope of saving the
>provinces in battle.
>
>honor runner. Unless they can get an early Damesh, a mindless honor deck will
>likely bring out personalites for full and not care whether the Ninja kill
>them.
>
I have to agree on both counts. I played against a cool ninja design
that encompassed the Damesh kill idea. Unfortunately for the ninja
player, his lowly damesh couldn't handle any of my personalities in
battle (I played both a Jade/Ex PCP and my Jade/Ex Reaper Horde Deck)
Lets face it, a PCP can still turn to province crushing against the
ninja deck on turn three and ended the game by turn 5 if done right.
(the damesh ninja deck idea just doesn't field large force
personalities which can be important if all you are attacking with is
damesh and a shapeshifter)
Also the honor runner decks that require little if any interaction
with their opponent with simply outdistance the deck.
Hell, can anyone say evil feeds....I knew that you could. ;)
Frankly, this deck is another fad design. However, I would like to see
some results between an honor running ninja and any other type of
honor runner. Post 'em if ya got 'em.
Thanks,
J
Nlupu
>> What do you mean, "it's a really good ability"? Good doesn't begin to
>> describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
>> I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
>> stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
>> out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
>>
>> stronghold.
>>
>> Mantis Clan Cynic
>
>I hope you can reserve your judgement until you play some games against it.
>Sure it's a very good ability but it's about as good as old Scorpion SH with
>province strength of 11. Refusing to play against it will not fix the
>problem.
>Ninja decks will be prevalent for awhile but like all other SH the fad will
>past and we will see less of them. Make it a challenge to find a way to beat
>
>Ninja. You will find that it's not that hard to do.
Actually just played a couple games against a nija deck and I was surprised how
well I did against it. I played a Yoritomo Attack/Range deck and a Scorpion
Ninja Deck. I was able to wipe out provences with 1 force at times. I think one
of the biggest problems the ninja deck will have will be with dueling decks.
Normally defensive decks and become lethally offensive against this type of
deck. Especially since the ninja decks I've seen are a bit slow in the
beginning.
Shin no Tori
people to make something
>>other than a mindless military deck or simply a robot honor runner.
There's actually
>>a NEW threat to deal with. Something you will have to use different
tactics to beat.
>>
>Actually, as far as I can tell, Ninja can't do a whole lot against a
mindless
will
>likely bring out personalites for full and not care whether the Ninja kill
>them.
One of the things I like about the game is the 'scissors paper rock'
thing... having a committed "anti military deck" stronghold works for me...
and I usually play military decks... My problems are with SH like new Crab
and TA, which can't seem to beat 'archetypical' decks on a regular basis...
I see no problems in playing against Ninja, just more fun. I'd prefer it
more if they could screw crane decks as much as fast attack, but, oh well,
that's what events are for. For my money,
1. I'd like to see strongholds get both sicker and more specialized...
2. FRPG screwed up by removing the 'no honor requirement for personalities'
from TA...
3. I wanna see a crab stronghold that does "reaction: after a player has
assigned units in an attack on one of your provinces, bow a samurai to
search your fate deck for a card. Place that card in your hand..." or
something similar... you know, a REAL ability... after all, only lions and
SH are supposed to be foolish enough to attack them...
Bored on a sunday morning...
Shin no Tori
David Freier
Nlupu wrote:
>
> >I hope you can reserve your judgement until you play some games against it.
> >Sure it's a very good ability but it's about as good as old Scorpion SH with
> >province strength of 11. Refusing to play against it will not fix the
> >problem.
> >Ninja decks will be prevalent for awhile but like all other SH the fad will
> >past and we will see less of them. Make it a challenge to find a way to beat
> >
> >Ninja. You will find that it's not that hard to do.
>
> Actually just played a couple games against a nija deck and I was surprised how
> well I did against it. I played a Yoritomo Attack/Range deck and a Scorpion
> Ninja Deck. I was able to wipe out provences with 1 force at times. I think one
> of the biggest problems the ninja deck will have will be with dueling decks.
> Normally defensive decks and become lethally offensive against this type of
> deck. Especially since the ninja decks I've seen are a bit slow in the
> beginning.
What I see as the principal problem with the new Ninja / Shadow stronghold is
deciding on the decks path to victory. It is not a strong honor running deck, nor
is it a formidable military deck, even with the Damesh combo. I can see some
viable dishonor tactics, but the one strategy I think works best is Aramoro,
Shapeshifters, and Abandoning the Fortunes. Basically run your opponent out of
Dynasty cards as quickly as possible. If he can never field enough Chi to consider
attacking, you will end up winning by forcing him to destroy his own holdings and
personalities. Either that or come up with a strong way to reach Enlightenment.
David Freier
Agasha Somniferum
Dragon Clan Alchemist
Andy Morris
Andy Morris wrote:
> Chris Berger wrote:
>
> > What do you mean, "it's a really good ability"? Good doesn't begin to
> > describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
> > I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
> > stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
> > out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
> >
> > I want to know what moron thought this would be a good idea for a
> > stronghold.
>
> Sounds like someone has a limited amount of imagination. I think this is a very good
> addition for a stronghold ability. It forces people to make something other than a
> mindless military deck or simply a robot honor runner. There's actually a NEW threat
> to deal with. Something you will have to use different tactics to beat.
Now that I reread this, I see it has a little bit of a bad tone to it. Basically, I
think its good that there is a stronghold that makes you rethink your tactics. And, the
stronghold is perfect for the Ninja. Afterall, they don't exist...so how are you
supposed to attack them or dishonor them if you can't see through that ruse. The only
way to do that is with strength of mind...
Andy Morris
Trevor Stone wrote:
> Long, long ago, in a newsgroup far, far away,
> Andy Morris <mcd...@earthlink.net> said:
> >> What do you mean, "it's a really good ability"? Good doesn't begin to
> >> describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
> >> I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
> >> stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
> >> out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
> >>
> If anything from DJH ruins the game, it's the escalating power level. I
> believe that the way to combat speed decks is with cards to slow them down, not
> by giving everyone fast stuff. I prefer games in which you've got a chance to
> build to something, otherwise it's whoever can knock out a few provinces first.
I'd have to agree with this. What made L5R better than Magic was the strategy
involved in making a deck. With it being so easy to make a speed military deck,
that element has been lessened to a degree
Personally, I feel the best games are still multiplayer. That's what the game was
originally designed for anyway and it's the very type of game that will allow you
time to "build" some sort of strategy.
>
> >> I want to know what moron thought this would be a good idea for a
> >> stronghold.
> >
> >Sounds like someone has a limited amount of imagination.
>
> It's not too hard to deal with. Your games will take a little longer, but if
> you've got enough stuff in your deck, you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
> I played against a pretty good Ninja deck the other day, and just generated
> personalities faster than he could knock them off. After a while I had enough
> to take him out, and with Deadly Ground he didn't have a hope of saving the
> provinces in battle.
>
> >I think this
> >is a very good
> >addition for a stronghold ability. It forces people to make something
> >other than a
> >mindless military deck or simply a robot honor runner. There's actually
> >a NEW threat
> >to deal with. Something you will have to use different tactics to beat.
> >
> Actually, as far as I can tell, Ninja can't do a whole lot against a mindless
> honor runner. Unless they can get an early Damesh, a mindless honor deck will
> likely bring out personalites for full and not care whether the Ninja kill
> them.
Interesting, I will have to work on this. I thought of some possibilities for
anti-honor runner, but I haven't put 'em in practice yet. I'll try to let everyone
know how it goes. (FYI, it is based on honor denial, not dishonor. Similar to my
deck from GenCon.)
Andy Morris
Shosuro Taberu (still marveling at all the new cards in DJH)
McD...@earthlink.net
Steven Kuo
no Tori" <Yo...@Right.Behind.You> wrote:
>
> 3. I wanna see a crab stronghold that does "reaction: after a player has
> assigned units in an attack on one of your provinces, bow a samurai to
> search your fate deck for a card. Place that card in your hand..." or
> something similar... you know, a REAL ability... after all, only lions and
> SH are supposed to be foolish enough to attack them...
Well, in case you don't know, the Lion army were there to *help* the Crabs
in the first place, not to attack them. After the Lion emassaries were killed
(presumably by Crabs), then it turned from an assistance party to a War party.
Besides, only the Lions can take down the Crabs in Rokugan...
>
>
> Shin no Tori
>
>
--
Ikoma Itagi (Steven K.)
"The primary interest of the Lion clan should not be on the welfare of our
clan, but the welfare of the Empire. Let everyone be known that we will do what
we can to restore the glory of the Emerald Empire."
Zen Faulkes
Andy Morris wrote:
> Personally, I feel the best games are still multiplayer. That's what
> the game was originally designed for anyway[...]
Ryan Dancey has stated categorically that this is not true. L5R was
designed with both situations in mind, not for one or the other.
Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar
Art
Ninja Stronghold and I beleive their path to vicory lies in this...
1. Use the Ki Rin's Shirne and 3 Evil Portences in your deck.
2. Use 3 Dripping Poisons and Exp. Hoseki and Bayushi Yukuan to lower
opposing personalitie's Chi and kill them.
3. Use the Ninja Shadow Walker and Demesh with Transvsable Terrain and
Ways of Deseption along with Out of the Shadows to sneak in and smash a
provence or 2 to slow your opponent down enough for...
4. Using Deadly Message, Purity of the Spirit (with Exp. Hoseki) and
Bayushi Areru (or just Ninja Kidnaper) and the Ninja Questionairs to
kill them off.
5. Use Bayushi Chai and Bayushi Armoro to freez there dynasy while you
attack with #3.
6. Allways have Night of a Thousand Fires to destroy Honor Holdings, and
a Breach of Ediquet or 2.
7. You MUST have the new holding
Kitsu Iyekao to recycle your followers, personalities and ninja actions.
All in all it is prety much slated for a "LOCK DECK" to freez your
opponent out of the game and make him conseide.
I think they shoul at least have some kind of a chance at a major
turnament.
<<< Art Wood >>>
Mantis Rules
Art
Billy
my Ninja deck and won 5 :) And we do have good players around here.
I play the Aramoro/Abandon combo with a dueling fate deck. With
Hiroru they have to think very carefully about attacking, anyone that
bows is dead. And master smiths are gone as well. And the 10 chi
thing keeps back early attacks. And honor runners? Two words,
Firebird Falls :) I've seen this thing hose Lion 3 times now(haven't
seen anyone else use it but me). I love this region. And with the
ninja SH it makes it difficult for them to destroy it quickly.
As for Evil Feeds, Kharma is a focus 4 >:). And ninjas being
low in force? Naw...that poison dartgun combined with arrows from the
woods will wipe out any opposition. And it's a focus 4 >:) Slow
start? I was amazed when I saw that. I pull a Ninja SH first turn
and you're completely gone. If Imperial Gift finds me Kachiko's Fan
and I find Toturi and I've got some shapeshifters out...
I've seen this deck do nothing but dominate(except once when I
got gold screwed :() and I'm actually getting shouts of broken around
here. Maybe some of your local ninja players should try harder :P
Louis Wainwright
Billy <veno...@usitSPAM.net> wrote:
> I can't believe all these posts. I've now played 6 games with
>my Ninja deck and won 5 :) And we do have good players around here.
>I play the Aramoro/Abandon combo with a dueling fate deck. With
>Hiroru they have to think very carefully about attacking, anyone that
>bows is dead. And master smiths are gone as well. And the 10 chi
>thing keeps back early attacks. And honor runners? Two words,
>Firebird Falls :) I've seen this thing hose Lion 3 times now(haven't
>seen anyone else use it but me). I love this region. And with the
>ninja SH it makes it difficult for them to destroy it quickly.
I've been playing Ninja also. My problem with the Aramoro/Abandon
combo is that Abandon is only one card! If it gets destroyed, you
have no way to win.
Firebird Falls is a great card though. Although I prefer Isawa Tomo's
Portal. Once you get a couple out it's almost impossible to lose
provences to an attack (unfortunately the same things that counter
the Dark Path counter Tomo's Portal).
> As for Evil Feeds, Kharma is a focus 4 >:). And ninjas being
>low in force? Naw...that poison dartgun combined with arrows from the
>woods will wipe out any opposition. And it's a focus 4 >:) Slow
>start? I was amazed when I saw that. I pull a Ninja SH first turn
>and you're completely gone. If Imperial Gift finds me Kachiko's Fan
>and I find Toturi and I've got some shapeshifters out...
Whew. Ninja SH, Kachiko's Fan, and Toturi. If you are getting that
as a start frequently I'd be complaining too...and not about the deck
being broken! :)
> I've seen this deck do nothing but dominate(except once when I
>got gold screwed :() and I'm actually getting shouts of broken around
>here. Maybe some of your local ninja players should try harder :P
>
>Bayushi Ansatsu * Scorpion Clan Shadow
See following tourney report.
Lou
David Donachie
>
> I have to agree on both counts. I played against a cool ninja design
> that encompassed the Damesh kill idea. Unfortunately for the ninja
> player, his lowly damesh couldn't handle any of my personalities in
> battle (I played both a Jade/Ex PCP and my Jade/Ex Reaper Horde Deck)
>
> Lets face it, a PCP can still turn to province crushing against the
> ninja deck on turn three and ended the game by turn 5 if done right.
I'd agree.... I have been trying out the Ninja, played it against
4 or 5 decks now and its only won once. The problem is that
10 is not that hard to get too, and its quite hard to take people's
Chi down, even with battle removal and such things as wounded
in battle or nogoten's bow
The best tricks I have seen so far are...
Ninube and Suru's Mempo ... assign Ninube to the opponent's
army, drain their chi with the mempo and send them home,
swap her with a shadow walker if needed, certainly stops big
battles if she can swap sides.
Wounded in battle, Nogoten's bow, Block Supply Lines, Refugees
... the obvious ones
matsu Hiroru with a garotte/bloodsword.. very deadly in the
ninja deck
The problem is that so much of the deck gets dedicated to the Ninja's
odd style of battle that there is not room for dishonour or nearly
as much personality removal as a Scorpian deck would enjoy for
example. Also for honour running they have abysmal Chi
yes it makes people re-think what they do, and it removes the second
and third turn kills most of the time, but I think most current
military decks can handle the Ninja with no problems, just on a slower
scale, and honour runners are a real problem for the Ninja
David
David Donachie
>
> Well, in case you don't know, the Lion army were there to *help* the Crabs
> in the first place, not to attack them. After the Lion emassaries were killed
> (presumably by Crabs), then it turned from an assistance party to a War party.
> Besides, only the Lions can take down the Crabs in Rokugan...
And why was that? I think its significant that it was Yokatsu's men
(You know... Yokatsu the Quolat Master who killed Kamoko's mother)
who were carrying the messages back and forth between Crab and Lion
(says so on one of the new flavour texts) I think Yokatsu organised
the breakdown in communications
David
David Donachie
>
> What I see as the principal problem with the new Ninja / Shadow stronghold is
> deciding on the decks path to victory. It is not a strong honor running deck, nor
> is it a formidable military deck, even with the Damesh combo. I can see some
> viable dishonor tactics, but the one strategy I think works best is Aramoro,
> Shapeshifters, and Abandoning the Fortunes. Basically run your opponent out of
> Dynasty cards as quickly as possible. If he can never field enough Chi to consider
> attacking, you will end up winning by forcing him to destroy his own holdings and
> personalities. Either that or come up with a strong way to reach Enlightenment.
Thats exactly the kind of deck I played for Morikage, except I did it
with Scorpians and Yoritomo stronghold and I have to say that I think
it works much better like that than with the Ninja Stronghold. The
cards
in your fate deck can be a lot more aggressive and you have much much
better
gold for things like assassins, masters, and tests of honour
David
Shin no Tori
Crabs
>in the first place, not to attack them. After the Lion emassaries were
killed
>(presumably by Crabs), then it turned from an assistance party to a War
party.
>Besides, only the Lions can take down the Crabs in Rokugan...
>
Understood, but look... If it was the Crane that got a coupla ems
popped, they'd look at the walls, look at O-Ushi standing tall with the
telephone pole... er, hammer, she carries around, and would use the old
"Crabs will be Crabs excuse..." But no, the Lions think "Lions can take down
the Crabs in Rokugan..."
Bad choice of last words....
As Emperor Molari said (sorry to change genres, but its a good quote...)
"Only a fool would start a war on two fronts... Only the heir to the throne
of the Emperor of Fools would start one on three!"
Shin no Tori
"Wassa matter? Is the itsy bitsy wall to high for you to climb?"
Louis Wainwright
David Donachie <D.Don...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>James Anderson wrote:
>>
>> I have to agree on both counts. I played against a cool ninja design
>> that encompassed the Damesh kill idea. Unfortunately for the ninja
>> player, his lowly damesh couldn't handle any of my personalities in
>> battle (I played both a Jade/Ex PCP and my Jade/Ex Reaper Horde Deck)
>>
>> Lets face it, a PCP can still turn to province crushing against the
>> ninja deck on turn three and ended the game by turn 5 if done right.
>
> I'd agree.... I have been trying out the Ninja, played it against
> 4 or 5 decks now and its only won once. The problem is that
> 10 is not that hard to get too, and its quite hard to take people's
> Chi down, even with battle removal and such things as wounded
> in battle or nogoten's bow
True, it is hard to reduce Chi. But with the Poison Dartgun (the most
undercosted card in a long time) it's pretty easy to reduce his chi back
down. Plus, using Isawa Tomo's Portals you can seperate his forces.
> The best tricks I have seen so far are...
>
> Ninube and Suru's Mempo ... assign Ninube to the opponent's
> army, drain their chi with the mempo and send them home,
> swap her with a shadow walker if needed, certainly stops big
> battles if she can swap sides.
I thought up this trick and thought it would be really cool. Like most idea's,
it works better in theory. To really pull it off you need Ninube with at
least two Suro's Mempos, a Ninja Shadowwalker, and a Chochu. Now, once you
get that combo it works REALLY well. But I often want to use the Shadowalker
and Chochu for something else.
> Wounded in battle, Nogoten's bow, Block Supply Lines, Refugees
> ... the obvious ones
I really prefer the Han Kyu over Nogoten's bow. Chochu with a Han Kyu and
a Poison Dartgun does a range 5 attack that can target someone with followers.
That'll almost always drop them under 10 Chi.
> matsu Hiroru with a garotte/bloodsword.. very deadly in the
> ninja deck
I prefer Tetsubo/Star of Laramun. YMMV.
> The problem is that so much of the deck gets dedicated to the Ninja's
> odd style of battle that there is not room for dishonour or nearly
> as much personality removal as a Scorpian deck would enjoy for
> example. Also for honour running they have abysmal Chi
Yup! This is what I discovered yesterday. I had Damesh tricks, defensive
tricks, and Yogo Asami. But I lost to a Scorpion deck that killed 12
of my personalities. I simply did not have enough force to take one
provence. The lack of force is a serious problem for the ninja.
The Ninja's other problem is Evil Portents. Damn, one of those wipes
out the Ninja Spy/Hiroru's...two kill mostly everything.
> yes it makes people re-think what they do, and it removes the second
> and third turn kills most of the time, but I think most current
> military decks can handle the Ninja with no problems, just on a slower
> scale, and honour runners are a real problem for the Ninja
I think this is a tremendously important point. The military decks at the
tourney yesterday were all more complex than simply LSDs (even though we
were playing open). Of course I don't think that the Cheese Honor is going
to care too much. OTOH with Deed's Not Words and Rise from the Ashes
Cheese Honor ain't so easy.
Lou
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ
Andy Morris wrote:
> Now that I reread this, I see it has a little bit of a bad tone to it. Basically, I
> think its good that there is a stronghold that makes you rethink your tactics. And, the
> stronghold is perfect for the Ninja. Afterall, they don't exist...so how are you
> supposed to attack them or dishonor them if you can't see through that ruse. The only
> way to do that is with strength of mind...
I would agree with this but... WHY CAN THEY WIN AN HONOR VICTORY ? Sure,
they don't exist but hell they can have their clan become emperor. Ok,
you'll tell me they can replace the emperor (as they supposedly did) but
i don't consider this a "honor victory". For people who don't exist, i
have trouble understanding this.
>From a balance point of view, i don't understand this at all. They cannot
lose honor (well, you'll tell me they can lose honor from their kolat
cards or their poisoned weapon but that's about it), but they can get
some. That's pretty amazing to me.
As far as i'm concerned this deck doesn't ruin fast military most, it
ruins dishonor decks most.
> Andy Morris
> Shosuro Taberu
> McD...@earthlink.net
MOAH, full time turnip.
Jeff W. Alexander
Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>What do you mean, "it's a really good ability"? Good doesn't begin to
>describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
>I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
>stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
>out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
Blackened Sky is broken!!!
No, wait.
Shinjo Technique is broken!!!!!
Um...
Steven Kuo
<D.Don...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> Steven Kuo wrote:
> >
> > Well, in case you don't know, the Lion army were there to *help* the
> Crabs
> > in the first place, not to attack them. After the Lion emassaries were
> killed
> > (presumably by Crabs), then it turned from an assistance party to a War
> party.
> > Besides, only the Lions can take down the Crabs in Rokugan...
>
> And why was that? I think its significant that it was Yokatsu's men
> (You know... Yokatsu the Quolat Master who killed Kamoko's mother)
> who were carrying the messages back and forth between Crab and Lion
> (says so on one of the new flavour texts) I think Yokatsu organised
> the breakdown in communications
>
> David
Really? I remember it was Hida Tsuru (brother of Hida Kisada) who reported
back to his niece Hida O'Ushi about the death of their Hida scouts in the hands
of Lion army. Perhaps both Yokatsu & Tsuru wanted these two clans to fight a
bloody battle, so it could prevent the alliance of Rokugan's most militistic
clans.
Joe Fulgham
news:F6tE4...@wlbr.iipo.gtegsc.com...
Mushin is broken!!!!!
er...
Hitomi Kazaq is broken!!!!!!
uh...
One Life One Destiny is BROOOOKKKKEEEENNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a month later... they're barely used (except Kazaq, who is *strong*)
Joe Fulgham | Hitomi Pukku | pu...@holycow.com
Dragon Clan Shugenja * Master of the Web
http://www.holycow.com/l5r/
L5R Code: DR++ S++ G++ T- M++ R+ Y+ !C D++ K U++
Philippe DUCHON
>
> In article <36BA5A3D...@ugcs.caltech.edu>,
> Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> >What do you mean, "it's a really good ability"? Good doesn't begin to
> >describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
> >I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
> >stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
> >out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
>
> Blackened Sky is broken!!!
>
> No, wait.
>
> Shinjo Technique is broken!!!!!
>
> Um...
Here's one:
Shinjo's Breath is broken!!
OK, it's not broken as in, "put it in every deck or you'll die to
decks that do", but I think it has just too good a synergy with cards
like Rallying Cry/Clay Horse for the "attack twice" side, and Shiryo
no Shinjo for the "stay here" side.
Broken ? Maybe not, but brainless cards for a Unicorn deck, sure.
--
Philippe Duchon (duc...@labri.u-bordeaux.fr)
Nik Olah
wrote:
>Well guys and gals, I have just been thinking in aa avid way about the
>Ninja Stronghold and I beleive their path to vicory lies in this...
>
>1. Use the Ki Rin's Shirne and 3 Evil Portences in your deck.
>
Bzzzt! Ki-Rin's Shrine doesn't protect your personalities from your
own actions. Sorry :)
>
> I think they shoul at least have some kind of a chance at a major
>turnament.
>
They will. Maybe not just right now, but give them another expansion
and give people more time to find the right combos.
><<< Art Wood >>>
> Mantis Rules
>
Be Calm
Nik Olah
Black Swamp Imperial Ambassador
Chris Berger
>
> Andy Morris wrote:
>
> >
> > > What do you mean, "it's a really good ability"? Good doesn't begin to
> > > describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
> > > I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
> > > stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
> > > out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
> > >
> > > stronghold.
> >
> > addition for a stronghold ability. It forces people to make something other than a
> > mindless military deck or simply a robot honor runner. There's actually a NEW threat
> > to deal with. Something you will have to use different tactics to beat.
>
> think its good that there is a stronghold that makes you rethink your tactics. And, the
> stronghold is perfect for the Ninja. Afterall, they don't exist...so how are you
> supposed to attack them or dishonor them if you can't see through that ruse. The only
> way to do that is with strength of mind...
>
They don't exist. How are you supposed to play as Ninja if they don't
exist? I refuse to believe in them, therefore I will not play against
them.
As for having a limited imagination, I think you've got that reversed.
Some people are saying things like, "oh, it doesn't take that long to
get 10 chi and once you do you just knock down the provinces one by
one." But that doesn't make any sense. Anyone who has half a brain
should be able to make a ninja deck that should never lose a province.
And they're immune to dishonour, so all you have to worry about is
honour. Well, since your best bets at killing personalities involve
dishonouring them first, it should be trivial to include a few Shames
and some Breaches of Ettiquette. Confusion at Court to cancel that
prevention of the honour loss, or Jade Throne to try and grab the
favour. Or even better, Yokuan is the master at playing Fight For My
Favour. Anyone stupid enough to bow for the favour will die and just
give it to you.
Therefore, a faction that cannot be beat, as long as the person who
plays it isn't stupid. Once you've got that, all you need is like a
single Hawks and Falcons in the deck and you can win 40 turns after you
get it into play. Or just make sure that you run them out of
personalities and attack their provinces one by one with the force you
should have left.
-Chris Berger
Mantis Clan Cynic
YA+/TA S+ G++ R !!Y C- E+++ !M !T D K+ U
Chris Berger
> >What do you mean, "it's a really good ability"? Good doesn't begin to
> >describe it. It's a fucking ridiculous ability that ruins the game.
> >I'm going to refuse to play anyone who whips out a Dark Path of Shadow
> >stronghold, and will immediately forfeit any game where someone pulls
> >out that region that does the same thing (but with 8 chi instead of 10).
>
>
> No, wait.
>
> Shinjo Technique is broken!!!!!
>
> Um...
Yeah right. Umm... I had enough sense to see those cards for the
wallpaper they are. What do I consider broken? Wasting Disease, Avoid
Fate, Dark Path of Shadow. Maybe a few super-rares that have no cost
versus huge effect. Wedge is borderline, I guess. Shinsei's Shrine
also borderline, as it seems obvious that you should destroy his *other*
provinces and leave him with no dynasty access. 2 honour per turn is
the same amount he would get for an Uji coming out of that province,
which would actually give him something useful. But I'm getting away
from the point, which is that the Dark Path of Shadow is broken and
Blackened Sky and Shinjo Technique are wallpaper. Where is the
comparison?
Bayushi Murai
>
> As for having a limited imagination, I think you've got that reversed.
> Some people are saying things like, "oh, it doesn't take that long to
> get 10 chi and once you do you just knock down the provinces one by
> one." But that doesn't make any sense. Anyone who has half a brain
> should be able to make a ninja deck that should never lose a province.
Two words spell the Doom of the Ninja:
Winter Warfare.
For two turns, you CAN'T send people home. That hurts with a 0 PS.
The Ninja are similar to a Bayushi Stronghold "Suicidal Dishonor" deck.
Beautiful if it works, pathetic if it doesn't.
Anyone who relies that strongly on the box ability deserves what they
get... Crushing attacks.
The Ninja are strong, but not invincible. They're also not immune to
dishonor, they're immune to most dishonor. Pekkle bombs still work, as
does killing off your dishonored personalities.
Bayushi Murai
Scorpion Clan Poet
Jeff W. Alexander
Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>As for having a limited imagination, I think you've got that reversed.
>Some people are saying things like, "oh, it doesn't take that long to
>get 10 chi and once you do you just knock down the provinces one by
>one." But that doesn't make any sense. Anyone who has half a brain
>should be able to make a ninja deck that should never lose a province.
You are actually claiming that a militarily-invulnerable Ninja
deck can be made? Many top-level military decks *currently in
existence* make extensive use of cards that nix the go-home
ability, and that number is only going to rise now. Heck, even
Deadly Ground is still useful -- though I can't use it against
your Stronghold, I can drop it with a Sneak/Scout once I'm at
10C to stop all your "half-a-brain" actions designed to knock me
back under 10 during the battle.
>Therefore, a faction that cannot be beat, as long as the person who
>plays it isn't stupid. Once you've got that, all you need is like a
>single Hawks and Falcons in the deck and you can win 40 turns after you
>get it into play.
Unless your opponent is playing an honor deck himself.
I sincerely doubt the Ninja can do honor better than Crane or
dishonor better than Scorpion, and they'll have to manage at
least one of those to become the auto-win you see them as.
____________________________________
Jeff Alexander ( Legend of the Five Rings FAQ site (O
Phoenix Clan Scribe ) http://www.zdi.net/jwa/l5r )
(___________________________________(O
Zen Faulkes
Chris Berger wrote:
> But I'm getting away from the point, which is that the Dark Path of
> Shadow is broken and Blackened Sky and Shinjo Technique are wallpaper.
> Where is the comparison?
It's not a question of comparison. It's just that a lot of folks
(me included) don't think the ninja box is all that good, never mind
broken.
We disagree? Fine. Time will tell who guessed right. It always does.
Bayushi Murai
>
> > But I'm getting away from the point, which is that the Dark Path of
> > Shadow is broken and Blackened Sky and Shinjo Technique are wallpaper.
> > Where is the comparison?
>
> It's not a question of comparison. It's just that a lot of folks
> (me included) don't think the ninja box is all that good, never mind
> broken.
> We disagree? Fine. Time will tell who guessed right. It always does.
I panicked when I first saw the ninja stronghold, I hadn't expected the
"You
cannot lose Honor from opponents' card effects or your Ninja cards"
part, but after some rational thought, I cooled down a bit.
The Ninja have several huge weaknesses. Their 0 PS being the largest
one. If you can find a way around their ability (of which there are
several) it's not a big deal. Other important things are that it's
difficult for them to gain honor, being a 3 gold clan. Hawks and
Falcons just aren't typically worth it, and they can't afford Sanctified
Temples. They may be mostly immune to dishonor, but they're not immune
to Pekkle Bombings or loss due to dishonorably dead personalities.
That's one of their own card effects.
Speaking of which, if I were to dishonorably slay a Ninja Shapeshifter
controlled by my Ninja opponent, I would be able to increase the honor
loss with Shizue, correct? It's an increase of an honor loss, not an
honor loss by itself...
OTOH, actually, now that I think about it... If a ninja dies
dishonorably, DO they lose honor? They can't lose honor from their
ninja cards...
This might be more difficult than I thought. :)
Jeff W. Alexander
Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> But I'm getting away
>from the point, which is that the Dark Path of Shadow is broken and
>Blackened Sky and Shinjo Technique are wallpaper. Where is the
>comparison?
The fervor with which outspoken individuals have initially
asserted their brokenness is nearly identical.
As Zen says, time will tell.
Jeff W. Alexander
>
>OTOH, actually, now that I think about it... If a ninja dies
>dishonorably, DO they lose honor? They can't lose honor from their
>ninja cards...
You're right, they don't. You can increase the loss with
Shizue if their own non-Ninja person dies dishonorably, though.
Bayushi Murai
>
> >OTOH, actually, now that I think about it... If a ninja dies
> >dishonorably, DO they lose honor? They can't lose honor from their
> >ninja cards...
>
> You're right, they don't. You can increase the loss with
> Shizue if their own non-Ninja person dies dishonorably, though.
>
<shudders>
That's fairly disturbing. :)
Pekkle bombs it is then, along with the Scorpion Children.
<blech, always hated that strategy, but it'll be useful against the
ninja...>
Bayushi Murai
Scorpion Clan Poet
"I'm holding my own kids hostage!"
Chris Berger
>
> In article <36C0C9D7...@ugcs.caltech.edu>,
> Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> >As for having a limited imagination, I think you've got that reversed.
> >Some people are saying things like, "oh, it doesn't take that long to
> >get 10 chi and once you do you just knock down the provinces one by
> >one." But that doesn't make any sense. Anyone who has half a brain
> >should be able to make a ninja deck that should never lose a province.
>
> You are actually claiming that a militarily-invulnerable Ninja
> deck can be made? Many top-level military decks *currently in
> existence* make extensive use of cards that nix the go-home
> ability, and that number is only going to rise now. Heck, even
> Deadly Ground is still useful -- though I can't use it against
> your Stronghold, I can drop it with a Sneak/Scout once I'm at
> 10C to stop all your "half-a-brain" actions designed to knock me
> back under 10 during the battle.
>
> >Therefore, a faction that cannot be beat, as long as the person who
> >plays it isn't stupid. Once you've got that, all you need is like a
> >single Hawks and Falcons in the deck and you can win 40 turns after you
> >get it into play.
>
> Unless your opponent is playing an honor deck himself.
> I sincerely doubt the Ninja can do honor better than Crane or
> dishonor better than Scorpion, and they'll have to manage at
> least one of those to become the auto-win you see them as.
>
>
was more that they sort of have a *theoretical* auto-win. It just
*really* *really* bugs me to have a stronghold that is immune to
dishonour and looks basically immune to military as well. I guess that
FRPG's never had a problem with requiring people to have lots of rare
power cards (in this case, talking about Sneak Attack) in order to win.
Afterall, the swing factor given by Avoid Fate (cancel events, which are
powerful, *and* they refill the province face down... gives you a pretty
huge advantage if your opponent doesn't have them), Inheritance,
Imperial Gift, Wedge, Evil Portents, Clan Swords, etc. is pretty huge
and no one really seems to have a problem with this. So now, military
decks will basically require Sneak Attack, Crushing Attack (okay, not
all that rare), etc. And, oh boy, it means that military decks will
have to get even more non-interactive. Wonderful, first honour decks
are made as non-interactive as possible, and now military. Can we
possibly make dishonour decks non-interactive too? How about
Enlightenment?
Ah well. The Dark Path of Shadow just strikes me as one of the dumbest
things to happen to a game since Fallen Empires happened to Magic. It
doesn't seem at all well-thought out and looks like it's gonna have
nothing but bad consequences on the metagame. I'll take back what I
said about it being completely unbeatable, but it's still a style of
play that I don't want to play against. I'd rather go play Magic and
play against a counterspell deck. ("I'll play this." "No you won't."
"I'll play this." "No you won't." "Fine, I concede." "No, I'll
counterspell that too.")
Well, I'll stop whining about it now, and maybe, just maybe, I'll even
consent to play a few games against the bastards, but I'm not going to
like it.
Phil Hall
ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu says...
<really big snip>
> Ah well. The Dark Path of Shadow just strikes me as one of the dumbest
> things to happen to a game since Fallen Empires happened to Magic. It
We used to have a guy in our L5R group who had similar problems and
opinions. He utterly refused to play against any deck that had Breech
of Ettiquette in it, saying it was unfair. Amazingly, he was a Lion
player (gee, now do you all understand where he was coming from?)
Litterally, he would instantly concede if he was ever hit with a
Breech -- I did it to him a lot on turn one just to get him out of the
game and to teach him a lesson. After a while he discovered that he
was never made that vulnerable that he couldn't recover, and he even
was able to provide more than an adequate defense against such things
from happening in the future. Net result: we got a better opponent to
play against and nobody left the group over such silliness.
Seems to me that the DPOS strongold is being thought of in the same
manner as my friend thought of Breech of Ettiquette. Considering that
the DPOS decks can be easily dealt with seems to not bear out many
peoples opinion; they just see the stronghold ability and freak-out.
They ain't that tough. But they are kinda cool! :)
--
Phil Hall
*The Naga Abomination*
"I am the Lizard King...I can do anything!"
Trevor Stone
Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> said:
>Well... I can admit when I'm wrong, and I think that my real objection
>was more that they sort of have a *theoretical* auto-win. It just
>*really* *really* bugs me to have a stronghold that is immune to
>dishonour
A lot of their personalities are vulnerable to personality denial cards.
Junzo's been imune to dishonor for what, two years? It's a problem for
strict-dishonor, and if lots of people play Ninja, dishonor may be a bad
metagame choice for a while.
>and looks basically immune to military as well.
This stronghold is _not_ immune to military. Just speed military. You can
beat this stronghold, it just takes a while (unless you're playing honor).
>I guess that
>FRPG's never had a problem with requiring people to have lots of rare
>power cards (in this case, talking about Sneak Attack) in order to win.
I won a tournament at a con yesterday (but the organizer never got around to
sanctioning it. Grrrrrrr) with a Crane deck that had 9 rares, most of which
weren't vital at all.
>Afterall, the swing factor given by Avoid Fate (cancel events, which are
>powerful, *and* they refill the province face down... gives you a pretty
>huge advantage if your opponent doesn't have them),
Easy way to deal with this: don't rely on events...
>Inheritance,
>Imperial Gift, Wedge, Evil Portents, Clan Swords, etc. is pretty huge
>and no one really seems to have a problem with this.
Sure, these can help lots of decks, but aren't necessary. The rares I had were
Asahina Tomo exp, The Hidden Emperor, Ki Rin, His Most Favored, 2 Lessons from
Kuro, Touch of Death, The 12th Black Scroll, and Focus. Only the Hidden
Emperor and the Lessons were useful in more than one game.
>So now, military
>decks will basically require Sneak Attack, Crushing Attack (okay, not
>all that rare), etc.
Scout, Deadly Ground. Two commons. March of the Alliance also works (go
Sanzo!). Rare, but not in high of demand as Sneak Attack. Or you can just
wait. Ninja can't kill all of your personalities, and you'll have a critical
mass of chi eventually.
>Ah well. The Dark Path of Shadow just strikes me as one of the dumbest
>things to happen to a game since Fallen Empires happened to Magic.
I liked Fallen Empires... Good flavor, several strong decks can be built with
almost no other expansion...
>It doesn't seem at all well-thought out and looks like it's gonna have
>nothing but bad consequences on the metagame.
It'll definitely have a metagame effect, but mostly it'll be a thinking effect.
"How can I deal with Ninjas? Maybe I should add a few hihger chi
personalities." and it'll laregely be determined by how popular the Ninja
become. The number of anti-honor caards included depend on how prevalent you
think Crane/et al. will be.
>I'll take back what I
>said about it being completely unbeatable, but it's still a style of
>play that I don't want to play against.
How often have you played against it? Perhaps you'll have to change your
playing frame of mind...
>Well, I'll stop whining about it now, and maybe, just maybe, I'll even
>consent to play a few games against the bastards, but I'm not going to
>like it.
>
Good idea. Maybe, since they're using a different play styule, you should
build a funky deck which doesn't have too much trouble with it. Challenge your
playing style.
If it's still a problem, there are plenty of ways to deal with it.
Of course, like Crane, the ways to deal with it may not always be that great...
I managed to beat a Scorpion deck without too much trouble after an early Time
of War and Time of the Void. Gaining hyhonor on your opponent's turn is just
too cool...
=-=-=-=-= Trevor Stone =-=-= a.k.a. Flwyd =-=-= tstone @ nyx . net =-=-=-=-=
Computer science, eclectic philosophy, games, wits, esotericism, weird hats.
http://robin.ml.org/~tstone/ Thou gnarling rude-growing rampallion!
I was born at a very early age. -- Groucho Marx
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ
Trevor Stone wrote:
> This stronghold is _not_ immune to military. Just speed military. You can
> beat this stronghold, it just takes a while (unless you're playing honor).
But ninja have also plenty of way to deal with people who take too long
to setup. Aramoro/abandonning the fortune pops to mind.
> >So now, military
> >decks will basically require Sneak Attack, Crushing Attack (okay, not
> >all that rare), etc.
> Scout, Deadly Ground. Two commons. March of the Alliance also works (go
> Sanzo!). Rare, but not in high of demand as Sneak Attack. Or you can just
> wait. Ninja can't kill all of your personalities, and you'll have a critical
> mass of chi eventually.
Deadly ground will stop nothing since it basically prevents people from
playing actions and the stronghold allow you to play it when you can't
play action. Scout/crushing attack doesn't work either. March of the
alliance is an event and cannot be counted on reliably. Sneak has now
become mandatory in many decks in any case. Phoenix/monks can always
play Root the mountain with a scout. And i'm scared of the day when
ninja players remember of watchtower.
A ninja does have plenty of way to kill your personality: poison dartgun,
a card I would call broken, Han Kyu, hoseki with the wasting disease,
dripping poison (on shapeshifter to copy the highest chi around)... then
there are ways to deal with your cards that don't kill it but deprive you
of their use: bayushi areru, shosuro nichiko.
When you want to play your own actions, they counter it (6 ninja cards for
it). They have something like 3 different ways to deal with your items
ninja thief is free and doesn't cost honor; ninja stalkers may even be used
against personalities if it needs to and Soshi Ujemi allows the ninja to get
a ninja thief per turn.
Well i don't know if the thing's broken or not. I don't think there's
been enough time to judge of the potential of the deck and the combos
that can be done with it. I'm a bit scared, and at any rate, it's very
frustrating to play against. The problem doesn't lie so much in the
battle ability as it lays in all the "sucky" ninja cards that have all
of a sudden become very interesting with no setback. (For example,
Mamoru).
> It'll definitely have a metagame effect, but mostly it'll be a thinking effect.
> "How can I deal with Ninjas? Maybe I should add a few hihger chi
> personalities." and it'll laregely be determined by how popular the Ninja
> become. The number of anti-honor caards included depend on how prevalent you
> think Crane/et al. will be.
The problem is the scorpion children is so hard to play that you almost need
to make your all deck around it. At least you need to make sure you can still
play when at -15 honor. High Chi personalities are dealt with by either Areru
or Nichiko. Not to mention wounded in battle.
> =-=-=-=-= Trevor Stone =-=-= a.k.a. Flwyd =-=-= tstone @ nyx . net =-=-=-=-=
> Computer science, eclectic philosophy, games, wits, esotericism, weird hats.
> http://robin.ml.org/~tstone/ Thou gnarling rude-growing rampallion!
> I was born at a very early age. -- Groucho Marx
MOAH, full time turnip.
Chris Mattern
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ <mo...@micronet.fr> writes:
> Hi,
>
> Trevor Stone wrote:
>
>> >So now, military
>> >decks will basically require Sneak Attack, Crushing Attack (okay, not
>> >all that rare), etc.
>
>> Scout, Deadly Ground. Two commons. March of the Alliance also works (go
>> Sanzo!). Rare, but not in high of demand as Sneak Attack. Or you can just
>> wait. Ninja can't kill all of your personalities, and you'll have a critical
>> mass of chi eventually.
>
> Deadly ground will stop nothing since it basically prevents people from
> playing actions and the stronghold allow you to play it when you can't
> play action. Scout/crushing attack doesn't work either. March of the
> alliance is an event and cannot be counted on reliably. Sneak has now
> become mandatory in many decks in any case. Phoenix/monks can always
> play Root the mountain with a scout. And i'm scared of the day when
> ninja players remember of watchtower.
>
killer card against Ninja that I haven't seen mentioned yet--
and it's a common, and it's already pretty good for military
decks. Traversable Terrain. One Traversable Terrain = one
dead Ninja province.
Chris Mattern
David Freier
Chris Mattern wrote:
> <big snip>
> Correct on the Deadly Ground, of course. However, there's one
> killer card against Ninja that I haven't seen mentioned yet--
> and it's a common, and it's already pretty good for military
> decks. Traversable Terrain. One Traversable Terrain = one
> dead Ninja province.
>
Traversable Terrain, actions, C, Imperial
Cost: 0, Focus: 1
Battle: Terrain. You may move one unit you control into this
battle from the province they
are attacking or defending.
Won't work against the Ninja. You play Traversable Terrain. They pass. You move a
unit into the battle. Unless the unit has 10 or greater chi, they end the battle
and send that unit home bowed. If it is a big chi unit it better have a follower.
When I play Ninja I get out as many personalities as quickly as possible so I can
always throw one in front of every province. That way I can always play actions.
With Refugees, Block Supply Lines, and other go home actions, plus the Poison
Dartgun / Arrows From the Woods it makes it very hard to keep a Battle going against
the Ninja. Traversable Terrain is by no means a guaranteed province kill.
David Freier
Agasha Somniferum
Dragon Clan Alchemist
PS I played Ninja in a tourney I ran this weekend, and the only thing that really
hurt me was honor runners. Even with Banu, Firebird Falls and Kisada's Funeral it
is very hard to slow them down in time to win.
Zen Faulkes
David Freier wrote about Traversable Terrain:
> Won't work against the Ninja. You play Traversable Terrain. They pass.
> You move a unit into the battle. Unless the unit has 10 or greater
> chi, they end the battle and send that unit home bowed.
Incorrect.
Terrains resolve *AFTER* all players have passed on performing
Battle and Open actions. For more information, see one of the really
old ZCotW (#4!):
http://www.zdi.net/jwa/l5r/zcotw~1.html
Billy
> Cost: 0, Focus: 1
> Battle: Terrain. You may move one unit you control into this
>battle from the province they are attacking or defending.
Ok, I've seen this card mentioned several times now as
anti-ninja. Someone please explain that to me. You've got an army
attacking me. If you've split it into different armies attacking
different provinces I'll send you all home. If you haven't then what
good will Traversable Terrain do? I'm confused :(
Bayushi Ansatsu * Scorpion Clan Shadow
-Billy
ve...@usit.net
Phil Hall
> >Traversable Terrain, actions, C, Imperial
> > Cost: 0, Focus: 1
> > Battle: Terrain. You may move one unit you control into this
> >battle from the province they are attacking or defending.
>
> Ok, I've seen this card mentioned several times now as
> anti-ninja. Someone please explain that to me. You've got an army
> attacking me. If you've split it into different armies attacking
> different provinces I'll send you all home. If you haven't then what
> good will Traversable Terrain do? I'm confused :(
As Zen just stated, terrains resolve AFTER all actions are done. The
Ninja's stronghold ability is an action, and thus this terrain works
after the Ninja have passed on any further potential use of their
stronghold ability. When this terrain resolves, you can then (safely)
add in more of your units into this battle--hopefully guaranteeing you
a victory.
Billy
wrote:
>As Zen just stated, terrains resolve AFTER all actions are done. The
>Ninja's stronghold ability is an action, and thus this terrain works
>after the Ninja have passed on any further potential use of their
>stronghold ability. When this terrain resolves, you can then (safely)
>add in more of your units into this battle--hopefully guaranteeing you
>a victory.
Ah...no I wasn't thinking like that. I understand the terrain
takes place after the actions. But you just made me realise why it's
good. I was thinking if you split your armies I could just send them
home from the battles seperately. But since you chose which battles
go first I couldn't send the others home until we'd finished the first
one. And once we'd finished the first one the terrain would resolve
and you could move everyone into that battle(even if the one guy who
was at the battle got sent home with the SH, the terrain would still
be there). Of course this only works with sneak attack, scout, or
some other card that lets you take the first action(Daiku and tashima
spring to mind) because otherwise my first action would be to send you
home and then you couldn't play the battle action.
Hm...a very good argument to put 3 superior tactics and maybe
a couple diversionary's into my deck. Thanks :)
Kestrel
>In article <36c8581d....@news.usit.net>, ve...@usit.net says...
>> >Traversable Terrain, actions, C, Imperial
>> > Cost: 0, Focus: 1
>> > Battle: Terrain. You may move one unit you control into this
>> >battle from the province they are attacking or defending.
>>
>> Ok, I've seen this card mentioned several times now as
>> anti-ninja. Someone please explain that to me. You've got an army
>> attacking me. If you've split it into different armies attacking
>> different provinces I'll send you all home. If you haven't then what
>> good will Traversable Terrain do? I'm confused :(
>
>
>As Zen just stated, terrains resolve AFTER all actions are done. The
>Ninja's stronghold ability is an action, and thus this terrain works
>after the Ninja have passed on any further potential use of their
>stronghold ability. When this terrain resolves, you can then (safely)
>add in more of your units into this battle--hopefully guaranteeing you
>a victory.
The problem being that you have to have a unit
in the battle to play the card now.
Kestrel
"That's keen! I've never thought of
myself as a life-form from another
dimension. That sounds so cool!"
- Mike Allred, "The Superman/Madman Hullabaloo"
Phil Hall
> >Ninja's stronghold ability is an action, and thus this terrain works
> >after the Ninja have passed on any further potential use of their
> >stronghold ability. When this terrain resolves, you can then (safely)
> >add in more of your units into this battle--hopefully guaranteeing you
> >a victory.
>
> takes place after the actions. But you just made me realise why it's
> good. I was thinking if you split your armies I could just send them
> home from the battles seperately. But since you chose which battles
> go first I couldn't send the others home until we'd finished the first
> one. And once we'd finished the first one the terrain would resolve
> and you could move everyone into that battle(even if the one guy who
> was at the battle got sent home with the SH, the terrain would still
> be there). Of course this only works with sneak attack, scout, or
> some other card that lets you take the first action(Daiku and tashima
> spring to mind) because otherwise my first action would be to send you
> home and then you couldn't play the battle action.
> Hm...a very good argument to put 3 superior tactics and maybe
> a couple diversionary's into my deck. Thanks :)
>
> Bayushi Ansatsu * Scorpion Clan Shadow
>
> -Billy
> ve...@usit.net
>
You're welcome! Now you have learned a most valuable lesson: Ninja
ain't that tough (but they are cool)! :)
Chris Mattern
kes...@airmail.net (Kestrel) writes:
> ph...@pitnet.net (Phil Hall) wrote:
>>
>>As Zen just stated, terrains resolve AFTER all actions are done. The
>>Ninja's stronghold ability is an action, and thus this terrain works
>>after the Ninja have passed on any further potential use of their
>>stronghold ability. When this terrain resolves, you can then (safely)
>>add in more of your units into this battle--hopefully guaranteeing you
>>a victory.
>
> in the battle to play the card now.
>
card--yep, it's true) Damn, it ain't nearly as good
against Ninja, then (or anybody else. Lord, the thing's
nearly a coaster, now). We're screwed.
Chris Mattern
If there's a card that lets an attacker play actions at a
combat where he has no units, might be able to combo with
it...
David Freier
Zen Faulkes wrote:
Whoops. Brain cramp made me forget that part :), but you still have to have
someone at that battle in the first place to play the terrain. I can still
send them home, and if I have a way to get someone into the battle or
already have someone there I can destroy or replace the terrain, with
something like Twisted Ravine. Again, Traversable Terrain is good, but is
not a guaranteed province crush vs. Dark Path of Shadow.
Jeff W. Alexander
Billy <veno...@usitSPAM.net> wrote:
>>Traversable Terrain, actions, C, Imperial
>> Cost: 0, Focus: 1
>> Battle: Terrain. You may move one unit you control into this
>>battle from the province they are attacking or defending.
>
> Ok, I've seen this card mentioned several times now as
>anti-ninja. Someone please explain that to me. You've got an army
>attacking me. If you've split it into different armies attacking
>different provinces I'll send you all home. If you haven't then what
>good will Traversable Terrain do? I'm confused :(
News flash: Traversable *doesn't* work, really. Here's
the problem: the Ninja Stronghold can send home an army attacking
one of their Provinces. Any Province, not just the current one.
So even if you Sneak or Scout the Traversable into play, I take
one action to send home the sneaking army and then another action
to send home the unit in that other Province over there you were
planning on Traversing in -- normally illegal by the Rule of
Relevance, but the NS breaks that one too. You end up with the
terrain in play and no one to move in with it.
The only way to make this work is to put the guy you want to
Traverse in into a 10C army.
Louis Wainwright
Jeff W. Alexander <j...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com> wrote:
>
> News flash: Traversable *doesn't* work, really. Here's
>the problem: the Ninja Stronghold can send home an army attacking
>one of their Provinces. Any Province, not just the current one.
>So even if you Sneak or Scout the Traversable into play, I take
>one action to send home the sneaking army and then another action
>to send home the unit in that other Province over there you were
>planning on Traversing in -- normally illegal by the Rule of
>Relevance, but the NS breaks that one too. You end up with the
>terrain in play and no one to move in with it.
>
> The only way to make this work is to put the guy you want to
>Traverse in into a 10C army.
Yeah, I hadn't gotten around to reposting the Ninja Rules Summary once I'd
asked Jeff about this. At the time I wasn't even thinking about Traversable
Terrain. The card I was thinking of was Tsuchi-Do. Example:
I'm the Ninja player, and I have no defenders:
Opponent (monk) sends someone against provience A. He resolves battle B
first. Against a Normal SH his first action is to bow a Monk at the fief
to Tsuchi-Do the monk at Battle A. However, as the Ninja player my first
action in Battle B is to send away the army at Provience A! This is because
the Dark Path breaks the rules about when/where you can take actions. In this
case it is breaking both Presence AND Relevence.
Now, with Tsuchi-Do in this situation there is an option. Simply attack
two different proviences and you'll be sure to get one. However, in practical
terms splitting your force is bad, and you are committing two units to be
bowed rather than one, AND it makes it much more difficult to do a turn two
provience kill.
By the way, this ruling also means that Familiar Surroundings is now the BEST
card for Ninja in open (be sure to add this to #75 Zen :) ). Simply resolve
one of the proviences that isn't being attacked first, and you don't have to
worry about Crushing Attack, Storms of War, Hida Kisada Inx, etc. Basically,
anything that combo'd with a Sneak Attack isn't a problem, because Familiar
Surroundings trumps a Sneak Attack.
It sure seems like 10 Chi is getting to be the only way to kill Ninja Prov's.
I'm interested to hear about what's going on with Ninja's in other tourneys.
We are going to have two next month (including a Strict Jade) and I expect
Ninja to do really really well in both.
Ninja Librarian
wain...@ntrnet.net
Trevor Stone
> News flash: Traversable *doesn't* work, really. Here's
>the problem: the Ninja Stronghold can send home an army attacking
>one of their Provinces. Any Province, not just the current one.
>So even if you Sneak or Scout the Traversable into play, I take
>one action to send home the sneaking army and then another action
>to send home the unit in that other Province over there you were
>planning on Traversing in -- normally illegal by the Rule of
>Relevance, but the NS breaks that one too. You end up with the
>terrain in play and no one to move in with it.
>
perform actions" doesn't seem to say that you can do it even if it's an illegal
action (otherwise couldn't you just stall for time by sending home nonexistant
armies or when there's a Root the Mountain in play?).
=-=-=-=-= Trevor Stone =-=-= a.k.a. Flwyd =-=-= tstone @ nyx . net =-=-=-=-=
Computer science, eclectic philosophy, games, wits, esotericism, weird hats.
http://robin.ml.org/~tstone/ Thou bawdy shag-eared dogfish!
Support your local Search and Rescue team. Get lost.
Brian Bankler
>
> News flash: Traversable *doesn't* work, really. Here's
> the problem: the Ninja Stronghold can send home an army attacking
> one of their Provinces. Any Province, not just the current one.
> So even if you Sneak or Scout the Traversable into play, I take
> one action to send home the sneaking army and then another action
> to send home the unit in that other Province over there you were
> planning on Traversing in -- normally illegal by the Rule of
> Relevance, but the NS breaks that one too. You end up with the
> terrain in play and no one to move in with it.
>
> Traverse in into a 10C army.
>
Ok, I went to Ikoma Andy's to verify this. Yuck. Let me
state something even worse: By the strict wording of the stronghold,
if you attack and any province has less than 10 Chi, then you
can send all attackers (even those with >10 chi in the army)
home. This was hopefully not the intent.
So, if I attack province A with 28 chi, and the ninja
sends ogoku (<10 chi) to another province (so that there is
an army attacking it) and then says. "Well, This attacking
army (with Ogoku) has 3 chi only, so I send all attackers home
bowed." (I don't think they can do this with empty provinces,
since there is no attacking army).
I'm now officially Waiting for errata.
Battle: If the total Chi of an army attacking one
of your Provinces is less than 10, send all attackers home,
bowed. You can do this while this Stronghold is bowed and
in a battle in which you cannot perform actions.
Proposed Errata:
Battle: If the total Chi of an army attacking one of your
Provinces is less than 10, send all -->attackers in that army<--
home bowed. (etc)
--
"They've built viruses that'll melt your head faster than you can
say 'What kind of freak would wear a t-shirt with a Gray smoking
a joint?' They even have toasters that don't tear bagels apart."
-- www.evilscience.net, alien survival guide
Bayushi Akunai
> Mushin is broken!!!!!
>
> er...
>
> Hitomi Kazaq is broken!!!!!!
>
> uh...
>
> One Life One Destiny is BROOOOKKKKEEEENNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>a month later... they're barely used (except Kazaq, who is *strong*)
No! Winning is broken! BROKEN!
Action cards are too strong! Broken!!!
Shugenja too, strong... BROKEN!!!
In fact... Personalities can destroy provinces as an inherent ability!
BRO-----KEN!!!
The ninja stronghold is not broken, IMHO, for god's sake if you can't
feild a total of 10 chi in a deck's attack, than I severly doubt you
can feild the usually 30-someodd force needed to take a mid to endgame
provence with other decks. Ninja decks tend to have few followers, so
if you fear them, play stifling winds or refugess, or fists, or what
have you. So a Kamoko can't eat pull a first turn province smash.
That doesn't make the stronghold broken, it makes a defence against a
supposedly broken tactic. The stronghold has zero strength for god's
sake.
Altho I can see some Ninube Ogoku/Ring of Earth combo.
"Ninube Ogoku allies with your null attack during your attack phase...
oh.. I send Ogoku home! Ring of Earth!"
>Joe Fulgham | Hitomi Pukku | pu...@holycow.com
>Dragon Clan Shugenja * Master of the Web
Bayushi Akunai
<ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>Jeff W. Alexander wrote:
>>
>> In article <36C0C9D7...@ugcs.caltech.edu>,
>> Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>> >As for having a limited imagination, I think you've got that reversed.
>> >Some people are saying things like, "oh, it doesn't take that long to
>> >get 10 chi and once you do you just knock down the provinces one by
>> >one." But that doesn't make any sense. Anyone who has half a brain
>> >should be able to make a ninja deck that should never lose a province.
>>
a good Mantis deck can feild ten chi on turn 3. Granted, first turn
province death is not guaranteed, but that's a good thing, allowing a
unique defence against Speed Military that the game needs. I am
personally tired of watching the "interativity" of a second term
province smash.
>> >Therefore, a faction that cannot be beat, as long as the person who
>> >plays it isn't stupid. Once you've got that, all you need is like a
>> >single Hawks and Falcons in the deck and you can win 40 turns after you
>> >get it into play.
All that a deck needs to smash it's province, is ten chi, and enough
force to go one point above the ninja. ninja is not a high force
deck, so once all the duels and bowing and such are exausted, the
provinces become easy pickings.
>>
>Well... I can admit when I'm wrong, and I think that my real objection
>was more that they sort of have a *theoretical* auto-win. It just
>*really* *really* bugs me to have a stronghold that is immune to
>dishonour and looks basically immune to military as well. I guess that
>FRPG's never had a problem with requiring people to have lots of rare
>power cards (in this case, talking about Sneak Attack) in order to win.
>Afterall, the swing factor given by Avoid Fate (cancel events, which are
>powerful, *and* they refill the province face down... gives you a pretty
>huge advantage if your opponent doesn't have them), Inheritance,
>Imperial Gift, Wedge, Evil Portents, Clan Swords, etc. is pretty huge
>and no one really seems to have a problem with this. So now, military
>decks will basically require Sneak Attack, Crushing Attack (okay, not
>all that rare), etc. And, oh boy, it means that military decks will
>have to get even more non-interactive. Wonderful, first honour decks
>are made as non-interactive as possible, and now military. Can we
>possibly make dishonour decks non-interactive too? How about
>Enlightenment?
Any deck has a theoretical "auto-win". Unicorn can theoretically
avoid opposition until the last province. Crane can theoretically
honour fast enough to not worry about losing the last provence. Ninja
can theoreticly avoid being attacked by chi-weak decks, As anyone
knows from playing, those theories can be beaten. That' part of the
interactivity of the game.
Besides, Lion and Unicorn have high honour personalities.. if Ninja's
playing one point of honour a turn, their playing 3 to 6 from their
high PH personalities. That's not a winning scenario for ninja. and
too, ninja's stronghold does not provide a nice way to kill provences.
>Ah well. The Dark Path of Shadow just strikes me as one of the dumbest
>things to happen to a game since Fallen Empires happened to Magic. It
>doesn't seem at all well-thought out and looks like it's gonna have
>nothing but bad consequences on the metagame. I'll take back what I
>said about it being completely unbeatable, but it's still a style of
>play that I don't want to play against. I'd rather go play Magic and
>play against a counterspell deck. ("I'll play this." "No you won't."
>"I'll play this." "No you won't." "Fine, I concede." "No, I'll
>counterspell that too.")
Besides the fact that counterspell decks are quite beatable, as a
counterspell won't win the game.
>Well, I'll stop whining about it now, and maybe, just maybe, I'll even
>consent to play a few games against the bastards, but I'm not going to
>like it.
hell, maybe you'll end up destroying them so swiftly, you'll wonder
why you were whining in the first place.
Nik Olah
Attack 2 provinces. One of the provinces you have a scout, or a
"before defender" type of action. Play traversable terrain at that
battle. Unless the ninja has a way of popping the terrain the
province is gonna go smush.
In short, the ninja can't rely on their house ability, and not send
anyone to the battle.
Be Calm
Nik Olah
Black Swamp Imperial Ambassador
Bayushi Murai
>
> a good Mantis deck can feild ten chi on turn 3. Granted, first turn
> province death is not guaranteed, but that's a good thing, allowing a
> unique defence against Speed Military that the game needs. I am
> personally tired of watching the "interativity" of a second term
> province smash.
Perhaps. But that Mantis deck won't have 10 chi on the field by turn 3,
if the Ninja deck's any good. The Ninja faction is purely a denial
faction. For months, they've preached against denial decks, and even
utterly crushed the two clans most noted for them - Phoenix and
Scorpion, and then they make a faction that makes both of them look like
newbies at denial.
I don't like the ninja faction, primarily because it breaks SO MANY
rules. I wouldn't mind some of it, but it basically just flagrantly
gives the rulebook the finger.
> All that a deck needs to smash it's province, is ten chi, and enough
> force to go one point above the ninja. ninja is not a high force
> deck, so once all the duels and bowing and such are exausted, the
> provinces become easy pickings.
Innate duels don't run out. :)
Give Matsu Hiroru the Obsidian Hand, Ambition, and a Tetsubo. You'll be
surprised at what dies. (Anything with 2 PH or more)
Anyway, in Open, personality destruction isn't the real way to go for
the Ninja. It's excellent as a supplemental strategy, but dishonor's the
real way to go, IMO. The only thing that holds them back is their low
gold production.
> Any deck has a theoretical "auto-win". Unicorn can theoretically
> avoid opposition until the last province. Crane can theoretically
> honour fast enough to not worry about losing the last provence. Ninja
> can theoreticly avoid being attacked by chi-weak decks, As anyone
> knows from playing, those theories can be beaten. That' part of the
> interactivity of the game.
Ninube Ogoku with Suru's Mempo makes ANY deck a low chi deck, as does
Evil Portents. Plus, both of those will probably kill off a good chunk
of their personalities. Duel the high chi people, murder the lower chi
ones.
> Besides the fact that counterspell decks are quite beatable, as a
> counterspell won't win the game.
Denial works. People also vary on their reactions to denial decks.
Some of those games are the best of their life, where they fight until
the bitter end. Others are "ho hum. I bring something out, you kill
it. I draw a card." events that infuriate your opponent. Counter decks
are primarily the latter, and just piss people off. That's why my clan
got whacked. It's just sort of hypocritical to constantly be saying
"Denial bad!" and then create the DPoS. <shrugs>
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ
"Jeff W. Alexander" wrote:
> News flash: Traversable *doesn't* work, really. Here's
> the problem: the Ninja Stronghold can send home an army attacking
> one of their Provinces. Any Province, not just the current one.
> So even if you Sneak or Scout the Traversable into play, I take
> one action to send home the sneaking army and then another action
> to send home the unit in that other Province over there you were
> planning on Traversing in -- normally illegal by the Rule of
> Relevance, but the NS breaks that one too. You end up with the
> terrain in play and no one to move in with it.
I find this ruling pretty ugly but *shrug*
On the other hand, how are rule these nasty infinite opposing actions ?
Ex: Reju with his armor of earth go attack the ninja who has no
personality out there. First ninja action: send me home. Canceled
by armor. First Reju action: pass, ninja send home, canceled, pass,
etc... I heard it happened in a french tourney and the ninja stalled
the game that way.
Also works with nichiko vs the scorpion children.
> ____________________________________
> Jeff Alexander ( Legend of the Five Rings FAQ site (O
> Phoenix Clan Scribe ) http://www.zdi.net/jwa/l5r )
> (___________________________________(O
MOAH, full time turnip.
Zen Faulkes
Bayushi Murai wrote:
> The Ninja faction is purely a denial faction. For months, they've
> preached against denial decks, and even utterly crushed the two clans
> most noted for them - Phoenix and Scorpion, and then they make a
> faction that makes both of them look like newbies at denial.
I'm just wondering who "they" are, and where you've heard this
"preaching" coming from. If "they" is supposed to indicate the design
team (which the rest of the message implies), I don't think I've heard a
peep from them about denial as a strategy. Pro or con.
From players, yes, there's been a reasonably steady stream of
comments about denial strategies. Like, "It's annoying when it works"
and "It doesn't work very often." ;)
Zen Faulkes
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ wrote:
> On the other hand, how are rule these nasty infinite opposing actions?
> Ex: Reju with his armor of earth go attack the ninja who has no
> personality out there. First ninja action: send me home. Canceled
> by armor. First Reju action: pass, ninja send home, canceled, pass,
> etc... I heard it happened in a french tourney and the ninja stalled
> the game that way.
Deliberate stalling, unsportsmanlike conduct, grounds for declaration
of forfeiture.
If a judge let a player get away with it, the judge wasn't doing his
job.
Bayushi Murai
>
> I find this ruling pretty ugly but *shrug*
> Ex: Reju with his armor of earth go attack the ninja who has no
> personality out there. First ninja action: send me home. Canceled
> by armor. First Reju action: pass, ninja send home, canceled, pass,
> etc... I heard it happened in a french tourney and the ninja stalled
> the game that way.
Stalling for time solely to end the game based on tiebreaker points is
known as "unsportsmanlike conduct" and gets you ejected from the
tournament, supposedly.
OTOH, you could just stall the exact same way by saying "I'm considering
my options... hmm..." for half an hour. It's the exact same thing.
Play Lion or Neo-neo-Phoenix! Stall from your first turn on! Win the
game automagically!
Bayushi Murai
>
> > The Ninja faction is purely a denial faction. For months, they've
> > preached against denial decks, and even utterly crushed the two clans
> > most noted for them - Phoenix and Scorpion, and then they make a
> > faction that makes both of them look like newbies at denial.
>
> I'm just wondering who "they" are, and where you've heard this
> "preaching" coming from. If "they" is supposed to indicate the design
> team (which the rest of the message implies), I don't think I've heard a
> peep from them about denial as a strategy. Pro or con.
Mostly playtesters, who have said that they've indeed been told by
official sources that denial is to be discouraged as a strategy.
Whether or not that's true, the fact that Phoenix and Scorpion were the
two clans singled out for whacking in Jade supports the idea that Denial
= Bad in the design team's eyes.
> From players, yes, there's been a reasonably steady stream of
> comments about denial strategies. Like, "It's annoying when it works"
> and "It doesn't work very often." ;)
:)
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ
Nik Olah wrote:
> Attack 2 provinces. One of the provinces you have a scout, or a
> "before defender" type of action. Play traversable terrain at that
> battle. Unless the ninja has a way of popping the terrain the
> province is gonna go smush.
Read Jeff's post: the ninja can send home the guy at the other province
while still in the battle for this province. So you have noone left
to bring for your traversable terrain.
> In short, the ninja can't rely on their house ability, and not send
> anyone to the battle.
Yes they can.
> Be Calm
>
> Nik Olah
> Black Swamp Imperial Ambassador
MOAH, full time turnip.
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ
Bayushi Murai wrote:
> Stalling for time solely to end the game based on tiebreaker points is
> known as "unsportsmanlike conduct" and gets you ejected from the
> tournament, supposedly.
> OTOH, you could just stall the exact same way by saying "I'm considering
> my options... hmm..." for half an hour. It's the exact same thing.
It's not exactly the same thing. There you can argue than both players
don't want to concede. Both can still play. I know it's pretty stupid
but hey i'm told it happened, so...
> Bayushi Murai
> Scorpion Clan Poet
MOAH, full time turnip.
Louis Wainwright
Brian Bankler <ban...@rtp.ericsson.se> wrote:
>
> Ok, I went to Ikoma Andy's to verify this. Yuck. Let me
>state something even worse: By the strict wording of the stronghold,
>if you attack and any province has less than 10 Chi, then you
>can send all attackers (even those with >10 chi in the army)
>home. This was hopefully not the intent.
...points out that Okogu can be used for this purpose...
> I'm now officially Waiting for errata.
>
>Battle: If the total Chi of an army attacking one
>of your Provinces is less than 10, send all attackers home,
>bowed. You can do this while this Stronghold is bowed and
>in a battle in which you cannot perform actions.
>
>Proposed Errata:
>Battle: If the total Chi of an army attacking one of your
>Provinces is less than 10, send all -->attackers in that army<--
>home bowed. (etc)
Actually, I'd propose:
Battle: If the total Chi of an army attacking your province at
>this battle< is less than 10, send the attacking army home bowed.
As this change also clears up the Rule of Relevence issue. Having
the Dark Path be able to break the RoR makes it very difficult to
defeat and, more importantly, is VERY non-intutive. Only one card
in the rest of the game breaks the RoR and that's Tsuchi-Do. It uses
about 12 words to do it clearly. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised
to discover that the intent of the Dark Path was never to break the
RoR.
Since, as Brian points out above (and I'd been afraid to contemplate)
the Dark Path as written allows severely broken behavior. And therefore
since Errata is necessary. Why not fix the Rule of Relevence situation
too?
Ninja Librarian
wain...@ntrnet.net
Jeff W. Alexander
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ <mo...@micronet.fr> wrote:
>
>On the other hand, how are rule these nasty infinite opposing actions ?
>Ex: Reju with his armor of earth go attack the ninja who has no
>personality out there. First ninja action: send me home. Canceled
>by armor. First Reju action: pass, ninja send home, canceled, pass,
>etc... I heard it happened in a french tourney and the ninja stalled
>the game that way.
Deliberately stalling in a tournament is unsportsmanlike
conduct and will result in a forfeit and loss. It's been
possible to perform infinite ineffective actions since Togashi
Rinjin came out in Forbidden Knowledge -- this isn't a new
scenario.
Deliberately stalling in a friendly game makes everyone
think you're a jerk.
Jeff W. Alexander
Bayushi Akunai <way...@uniserve.com> wrote:
>
>Altho I can see some Ninube Ogoku/Ring of Earth combo.
>
>"Ninube Ogoku allies with your null attack during your attack phase...
>oh.. I send Ogoku home! Ring of Earth!"
What null attack? He still has to declare that he's
attacking.
Phil Hall
zfau...@bio1.lan.mcgill.ca says...
> Deliberate stalling, unsportsmanlike conduct, grounds for declaration
> of forfeiture.
>
> If a judge let a player get away with it, the judge wasn't doing his
> job.
>
>
> Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar
>
Where in the rules for anyone does it say that the judge would have
that sort of power (to declare forfeiture)? Shouldn't only one of the
players be allowed that power?
Sure that's unsportsmanlike, but I wouldn't declare a forfeiture;
rather I'd just say that both personalities die instantly and the game
continues.
Then I'd get a ruling from Dave Williams on that sort of evil...in
hopes that it never happens again.
Phil Hall
The ninja action (go home) is done once, since it's a battle action;
and therefore only do-able once per battle, as per the rules. The
reaction would then only function once against that particular trigger
event (the ninja action). End of loop.
Bayushi Murai
>
> I would have to rule thusly:
>
> The ninja action (go home) is done once, since it's a battle action;
> and therefore only do-able once per battle, as per the rules. The
> reaction would then only function once against that particular trigger
> event (the ninja action). End of loop.
Nowhere in the rules does it say that you can only do a battle action
once per battle, unless it specifically has that written on the action.
If someone had "BATTLE: Reduce the chi of this personality by 1 to gain
1 force", they could do it as many times as they want (although they'll
die if their chi goes down to 0)...
The Ninja Action can theoretically be performed an infinite number of
times per battle. The ruling that the Rules of Relevancy aren't
required disturbs me more, since there's no reason to use the box action
if the army has greater than 10 chi.
Phil Hall
says...
> In article <MPG.1133b8f53...@news.pitnet.net>,
> Phil Hall <ph...@pitnet.net> wrote:
> >I would have to rule thusly:
> >
> >The ninja action (go home) is done once, since it's a battle action;
> >and therefore only do-able once per battle, as per the rules.
>
I thought I had read that somewhere, somewhere.
So, what you are all saying is that if a Battle Action doesn't
specifically say it bows you then you can do that action an infinite
number of times? That's silly; and that's the reason we're all in
this mess. Simple fix is to make Battle Actions do-able only once
regardless. Voila! End of problem.
Jeff W. Alexander
Phil Hall <ph...@pitnet.net> wrote:
>I would have to rule thusly:
>
>The ninja action (go home) is done once, since it's a battle action;
>and therefore only do-able once per battle, as per the rules.
As per what rules?
____________________________________
Daniel Holzer
: In article <F79vG...@wlbr.iipo.gtegsc.com>, j...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com
: says...
: > In article <MPG.1133b8f53...@news.pitnet.net>,
: > Phil Hall <ph...@pitnet.net> wrote:
: > >I would have to rule thusly:
: > >
: > >The ninja action (go home) is done once, since it's a battle action;
: > >and therefore only do-able once per battle, as per the rules.
: >
: > As per what rules?
: I thought I had read that somewhere, somewhere.
: So, what you are all saying is that if a Battle Action doesn't
: specifically say it bows you then you can do that action an infinite
: number of times? That's silly; and that's the reason we're all in
: this mess. Simple fix is to make Battle Actions do-able only once
: regardless. Voila! End of problem.
Almost all personalities that can do actions that do not bow the
personality are specifically prohibited from performing that action more
than once per turn. The exceptions are (generally) cards whose affect
has a significent cost (such as the loss of Chi or discarding of cards)
or cards that gain no utility by being used more than once. The Ninja
Stronghold is an exception (for God only knows what reason). I think it
would have been strong enough if it could only be used once per turn.
Daniel
Phil Hall
I have a better idea.
As Zen is often saying "Don't change
the rules, make a card that modifies
the rules." But in this case, I think
we have a potentially annoying problem
to deal with, so I suggest this minor
addition to the rules:
"A Player cannot initiate an action
or card effect if there is not a legal
target that can accept the effect of the
action."
This can be translated as, you can't do
something that would not reasonably result
in the effect of the card's action.
For instance we can use Kokujin (the
Dragon Clan guy with the infinite Range
2 attacks) facing a massive army consisting
of nobody of a Force of less than 3 -- they're
all immune to his ability. Therefore under
my addition you couldn't even attampt to use
Kokujin's Ranged Attack because you wouldn't
be able to affect anyone anyway -- unless you
had some way of modifying the value of his
Ranged Attack (Arrows From the Woods, for
instance).
Now, on to the problem as listed. Someone
with the Armor of the Earth attached versus
the Stronghold Ability of the Dark Path of
Shadow.
With this we discover that Someone cannot be
removed from the battle as a result of the power
of the Armor of the Earth. With that in mind,
and since this someone is the only Personality
in the attacking army, thus making nobody else
available for the effect, we cannot use the
Stronghold Ability of the Dark Path of Shadow.
This kills the infinite stalling loop scenario as
posted, meets the RoR and RoP, and makes a whole
lot fo sense.
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ
Zen Faulkes wrote:
> Greetings,
> Deliberate stalling, unsportsmanlike conduct, grounds for declaration
> of forfeiture.
>
> If a judge let a player get away with it, the judge wasn't doing his
> job.
Don't get me started about judges in France.
> Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar
MOAH, full time turnip.
Philippe DUCHON
ph...@pitnet.net (Phil Hall) writes:
>
> Ok, as for my last post. Scratch it,
> I have a better idea.
>
> As Zen is often saying "Don't change
> the rules, make a card that modifies
> the rules." But in this case, I think
> we have a potentially annoying problem
> to deal with, so I suggest this minor
> addition to the rules:
>
> "A Player cannot initiate an action
> or card effect if there is not a legal
> target that can accept the effect of the
> action."
What you're trying to avoid is "null effect" actions... Note that your
wording is _not_ very good here. Some actions have no target. And the
Armor of Earth is a Reaction, it's not automatic - you _can_ let your
Armored dude go home.
>
> Now, on to the problem as listed. Someone
> with the Armor of the Earth attached versus
> the Stronghold Ability of the Dark Path of
> Shadow.
>
> With this we discover that Someone cannot be
> removed from the battle as a result of the power
> of the Armor of the Earth. With that in mind,
> and since this someone is the only Personality
> in the attacking army, thus making nobody else
> available for the effect, we cannot use the
> Stronghold Ability of the Dark Path of Shadow.
Just play Deadly Ground, _then_ send them home.
So, by your rules, a Deadly Ground having been played would suddenly
make DPOS usable ?
>
> This kills the infinite stalling loop scenario as
> posted, meets the RoR and RoP, and makes a whole
> lot fo sense.
Or, just use the "stalling" rule. Works fine in a tournament. And
there is no need for it in friendly games - if your opponents use such
loopholes to avoid losing, just laugh at them.
--
Philippe Duchon (duc...@labri.u-bordeaux.fr)
Philippe DUCHON
Gwenael TRANVOUEZ <mo...@micronet.fr> writes:
> > If a judge let a player get away with it, the judge wasn't doing his
> > job.
>
> Don't get me started about judges in France.
>
> > Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar
>
> MOAH, full time turnip.
Could it be that we've met the same judges ?
--
Philippe Duchon (duc...@labri.u-bordeaux.fr)
Zen Faulkes
Phil Hall wrote:
>> Deliberate stalling, unsportsmanlike conduct, grounds for declaration
>> of forfeiture. If a judge let a player get away with it, the judge
>> wasn't doing his job.
>
> Where in the rules for anyone does it say that the judge would have
> that sort of power (to declare forfeiture)? Shouldn't only one of the
> players be allowed that power?
I've heard the phrase "such and such will be considered a declaration
of forfeiture" in other tournament rules for other games. I mispoke. A
player should be disqualified from the tournament for such behaviour.
> Sure that's unsportsmanlike, but I wouldn't declare a forfeiture;
> rather I'd just say that both personalities die instantly and the game
> continues.
But remember the situation: ninja stronghold. Needs no personalities.
Having personalities die would just penalise the attacking player, who
is not at fault.
> Then I'd get a ruling from Dave Williams on that sort of evil...in
> hopes that it never happens again.
No. This isn't about rules. This is about cheating. It's the judges'
job to deal with cheaters, not Dave Williams'.
David Freier
Nik Olah wrote:
> Attack 2 provinces. One of the provinces you have a scout, or a
> "before defender" type of action. Play traversable terrain at that
> battle. Unless the ninja has a way of popping the terrain the
> province is gonna go smush.
>
> In short, the ninja can't rely on their house ability, and not send
> anyone to the battle.
Quite correct. Thats why I always try to send at least one personality to every
battle when I get attacked playing the Dark Path of Shadow. Either that tactic
or use Ninube Ogoku to join their army ;)
Phil Hall
duc...@labri.u-bordeaux.fr says...
> What you're trying to avoid is "null effect" actions... Note that your
> wording is _not_ very good here. Some actions have no target. And the
> Armor of Earth is a Reaction, it's not automatic - you _can_ let your
> Armored dude go home.
I admit that the use of the word "target" in my post is a bit of a
problem. But I bet a better term could be created that doesn't use a
term such as target (for which we already have a definition) and makes
the intent clear.
> Just play Deadly Ground, _then_ send them home.
Nope, you can't do that since Deadly ground specifically says that no
other action can be attempted other than one that would remove Deadly
Ground from play....including the DPOS stronghold ability.
> So, by your rules, a Deadly Ground having been played would suddenly
> make DPOS usable ?
Nope, again. Here's the text of Deadly Ground: "Battle: Terrain. When
Deadly Ground has been put into play, no actions may be played or
initiated for this battle except those that would remove Deadly
Ground. This Terrain takes effect immediately upon being played."
DPOS can't be done (since it's an Action) if Deadly Ground is in play.
Phil Hall
zfau...@bio1.lan.mcgill.ca says...
> > Then I'd get a ruling from Dave Williams on that sort of evil...in
> > hopes that it never happens again.
>
> No. This isn't about rules. This is about cheating. It's the judges'
> job to deal with cheaters, not Dave Williams'.
How is what is being done here "cheating"? Forgive me, but if
something is completely within the scope of the rules, then it cannot
be considered to be cheating. This is a flaw with either the rules or
with the cards, but is certainly not cheating.
Phil Hall
ph...@pitnet.net says...
>
> > Just play Deadly Ground, _then_ send them home.
>
>
> Nope, you can't do that since Deadly ground specifically says that no
> other action can be attempted other than one that would remove Deadly
> Ground from play....including the DPOS stronghold ability.
>
Man, I hate having to correct myself.... *sigh*
Ok, I was wrong here, Deadly Ground doesn't keep the DPOS from ding
their cool Stronghold Battle Ability.
Which goes to tell me that there is something "not quite right" with
the whole Ninja thing.
Sorry.
Zen Faulkes
Phil Hall wrote:
>> No. This isn't about rules. This is about cheating. It's the judges'
>> job to deal with cheaters, not Dave Williams'.
>
> How is what is being done here "cheating"? Forgive me, but if
> something is completely within the scope of the rules, then it cannot
> be considered to be cheating. This is a flaw with either the rules or
> with the cards, but is certainly not cheating.
Give me a break. I'm not interesting in splitting verbal hairs. Call
it whatever you want, I don't care. The bottom line is that repeatedly
performing an action that produces no effect in a timed game isn't
acceptable. A judge should not tolerate it.
Nothing's to be gained by blaming the cards or rules. Thousands of
players around the globe work with the same cards. And gee, isn't it odd
that someone *ONLY* performs pointless actions like this during a
tournament, and it's never an issue in any other friendly games?
Nope, this is an individual player causing a problem, pure and
simple. Just the same bad apple spoiling the barrel for everyone else,
like always.
Otaku Frey
>In article <MPG.1134b346b...@news.pitnet.net>,
>ph...@pitnet.net says...
>
>> > Just play Deadly Ground, _then_ send them home.
>
>> Nope, you can't do that since Deadly ground specifically says that no
>> other action can be attempted other than one that would remove Deadly
>> Ground from play....including the DPOS stronghold ability.
>
>Man, I hate having to correct myself.... *sigh*
>
>Ok, I was wrong here, Deadly Ground doesn't keep the DPOS from ding
>their cool Stronghold Battle Ability.
>
>Which goes to tell me that there is something "not quite right" with
>the whole Ninja thing.
Which is what being a Ninja is all about... They are, and have always been,
enigmatic. We don't even know that they are essentially evil. We only assume
that since they operate in the darkness that they are linked with evil and
over-all badness [spoooooooooky].
A really great series to read is the Tomoe Gozen trilogy. Ninjas are
portrayed as working on a higher principle than good or evil, keeping a
separation between the darkness and the light - guardians, if you will. What
sacrifices are required to accept this higher calling? No one but those
willing to walk the Dark Path of Shadows will ever know....ooooh! Nice
segue......
Otaku Frey
Unicorn Clan Storyteller
Once upon a time...
Phil Hall
says...
> A really great series to read is the Tomoe Gozen trilogy. Ninjas are
> portrayed as working on a higher principle than good or evil, keeping a
> separation between the darkness and the light - guardians, if you will. What
> sacrifices are required to accept this higher calling? No one but those
> willing to walk the Dark Path of Shadows will ever know....ooooh! Nice
> segue......
>
>
Interesting idea, to forgo honor and make such sacrefices to protect
(?) mankind. Gee, sounds a lot like a short story I wrote about 4
years ago....
Personally, I do not (yet) see the DPOS as evil, but just what you
said, enigmatic. Evil, really, is in the eye of the beholder.
That makes me also wonder about ol' Toturi and the new (ninja) trait
he garnered. He was taught by Kage (that Kolat pimp) so perhaps
Toturi was being taught Kolat and Ninja teachings without him even
knowing.... Werid idea: can one be a ninja and not know it?
Andrew C. Lannen
<zfau...@bio1.lan.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>Phil Hall wrote:
>
>>> No. This isn't about rules. This is about cheating. It's the judges'
>>> job to deal with cheaters, not Dave Williams'.
>>
>> How is what is being done here "cheating"? Forgive me, but if
>> something is completely within the scope of the rules, then it cannot
>> be considered to be cheating. This is a flaw with either the rules or
>> with the cards, but is certainly not cheating.
>
> Give me a break. I'm not interesting in splitting verbal hairs. Call
>it whatever you want, I don't care. The bottom line is that repeatedly
>performing an action that produces no effect in a timed game isn't
>acceptable. A judge should not tolerate it.
But in the situation described (Armor of Earthed personality
attacking the Ninja), both players have legal and justifiable actions
or reactions that *do* produce an effect on the Battle. The Ninja
player can activate his stronghold ability to send the attacker home.
The other player then has to decide whether or not to use the Armor of
Earth's reaction to cancel it. Then the Ninja player can do it again,
putting the burden of decision back on the attacker again. Who is in
the wrong here: The guy who keeps taking *legal* actions that could
send the province crusher home, or the guy who keeps taking legal
reactions that would keep the attacker in the battle? I would say
that neither one is in the wrong. The cards are.
The designers could solve this particular situation by issuing a
minor errata to the Armor of Earth: "As long as the personality with
Armor of Earth attached is in this province, the canceled action may
not be performed again in this battle." (That first clause is to
keep people from pulling crap like assigning the AoE personality with
another personality, canceling the the stronghold action, then
SupTacing the AoE to another battle to take two provinces.)
Bayushi Onryou
Scorpion Clan Convert
-----
Andrew C. Lannen /// and...@ix.netcom.com
"Cynic: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as
they are, not as they ought to be." -- Ambrose Bierce
Steven Kuo
>
> >
> >
>
> Interesting idea, to forgo honor and make such sacrefices to protect
> (?) mankind. Gee, sounds a lot like a short story I wrote about 4
> years ago....
>
> Personally, I do not (yet) see the DPOS as evil, but just what you
> said, enigmatic. Evil, really, is in the eye of the beholder.
>
> That makes me also wonder about ol' Toturi and the new (ninja) trait
> he garnered. He was taught by Kage (that Kolat pimp) so perhaps
> Toturi was being taught Kolat and Ninja teachings without him even
> knowing.... Werid idea: can one be a ninja and not know it?
Well, I don't think we should assume that everyone who were taught by Kage
received Kolat/Ninja training from him. Yes, Matsu Hiroru is now a Ninja, so is
Toturi. But Matsu Tsuko was also a student under Kage, and many other Lion
samurais (perhaps even Ginawa?). I think those individuals chosen their own
path rather than due to being influenced by the Kolat Master himself.
>
>
> --
> Phil Hall
> *The Naga Abomination*
> "I am the Lizard King...I can do anything!"
--
Ikoma Itagi (Steven K.)
"The primary interest of the Lion clan should not be on the welfare of our
clan, but the welfare of the Empire. Let everyone be known that we will do what
we can to restore the glory of the Emerald Empire."
Zen Faulkes
Before I reply to what Andrew C. Lannen wrote, I just want to say
that if my prose seems a bit testy, it is not directed at any person.
It's frustration about a situation.
>> The bottom line is that repeatedly performing an action that produces
>> no effect in a timed game isn't acceptable. A judge should not
>> tolerate it.
>
> But in the situation described (Armor of Earthed personality
> attacking the Ninja), both players have legal and justifiable actions
> or reactions that *do* produce an effect on the Battle.
C'mon! This is rules lawyering at its most egregious and petty.
Anyone who tries to pull this stunt is doing something beginning with
a big, uppercase "W". Nobody like to play with such a person.
> Who is in the wrong here: The guy who keeps taking *legal* actions
> that could send the province crusher home, or the guy who keeps taking
> legal reactions that would keep the attacker in the battle?
Easy call: the ninja player. He is willfully performing an action
that has no effect. The Armor isn't hidden from view, and it's not
like anything is going to *change*. His action accomplishes nothing,
cannot accomplish anything, ever. He knows this -- at least he should
after the fourth or fifth time. That means repeating the action is
pointless, therefore doing it again and again is stalling.
But I wouldn't let the attacker off scott free, either: if he
doesn't call a judge on this, he has only himself to blame.
> I would say that neither one is in the wrong. The cards are.
If this were a real *rules* problem, it would be an issue in
non-tournament play. It isn't. People would be asking questions about
it on l5rinfo and here. They don't. This isn't about the rules or the
cards being unclear. This is all about screwing around for points at
tournaments.
Phil Hall
just gotta reiterate that I think there should be an addition to the
rules along these lines: "An action or card effect that has no chance
of succeeding in its intended capability cannot be attempted." This
also would make it impossible to use a Range Attack on someone too
powerful to be affected by it (but I think we all could live with
that).
That would end the loop that we're talking about.
Also, if you want my absolute opinion on this: Someone with the Armor
of Earth attacks the DPOS stronghold (there are no defenders). The
attack will continue unabated, as referenced by my "rule" above. {You
can't use the DPOS ability to send home the guy with the Armor of
Earth attached because of the AoE's reaction ability. And as someone
else pointed out, yes, you could allow your guy to go home curtesy
of the DPOS ability -- allowing it to afect your personality -- but if
that was the case, why in the world did you attack in the first
place?}
No infinte combo, no stalling, no B.S. (pardom my vulgarism), just
sweet and simple, beautiful, game playing logic.
I like that. ;)
Chris Mattern
j...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com (Jeff W. Alexander) writes:
> In article <MPG.1133b8f53...@news.pitnet.net>,
> Phil Hall <ph...@pitnet.net> wrote:
>>I would have to rule thusly:
>>
>>The ninja action (go home) is done once, since it's a battle action;
>>and therefore only do-able once per battle, as per the rules.
>
> As per what rules?
Indeed. I would *love* to have the Ninja Stronghold errata'd
this way. Do this and rule that it can only be taken at the
battle currently occuring, and the thing becomes reasonable.
Unfortunately, it ain't that way right now.
Chris Mattern
Jeff W. Alexander
Phil Hall <ph...@pitnet.net> wrote:
>
>No infinte combo, no stalling, no B.S. (pardom my vulgarism), just
>sweet and simple, beautiful, game playing logic.
>
>I like that. ;)
Well, I've gotta say I'm entirely on Zen's side on this
issue. There's been no need to add a rule like this for the
year and a half or so that Rinjin has existed, and I don't see
a need for one now.
Phil Hall
says...
> In article <MPG.11351838b...@news.pitnet.net>,
> Phil Hall <ph...@pitnet.net> wrote:
> >
> >No infinte combo, no stalling, no B.S. (pardom my vulgarism), just
> >sweet and simple, beautiful, game playing logic.
> >
> >I like that. ;)
>
> Well, I've gotta say I'm entirely on Zen's side on this
> issue. There's been no need to add a rule like this for the
> year and a half or so that Rinjin has existed, and I don't see
> a need for one now.
>
Jeff, I understand where you & Zen are coming from. But if there's no
hard and fast ruling (other than the currently existing "stalling is
bad" rule) we're literally stuck with two sides having a legit rules
claim and no true resolution other than the same "stalling" cry.
With Rinjin and his attack, we're dealing with something similar but
slightly different since although you *can* target someone who is
immune to your ranged attack, the question becomes "what is served by
doing so?" None that I can see other than it takes the place of an
action (a placeholder, similar to bowing a Philosopher) thus
preventing a pass-action on the player's part so that he or she can
wait and see what the opponent will do in order to react to the
opponent's actions. This is a legit use, albeit kind of funky.
With DPOS's battle action versus the Armor of Earth what we have is
"the irresistable force against the immovable object," literally.
Paradoxes suck, in my opinion. So something _has_ to be done that
doesn't violate the rules, a card's text or intent, or violate the
player's ability to play in a legal manner. In my opinion this is
best accomplished by an addition to the rules rather than a
modification of a longstanding card-effect (in the case of the AoE) or
an errata of an existing newer ability (the DPOS ability) which is, in
and by itself, not ruinous or "broken."
Rules of the game have been amended time and again, to fix and to
clarify. My addition does the same and doesn't *really* affect any
other aspect of the game and is far more intuitive (and in my opinion,
better) than my previous idea that all Battle Actions should be
performable only once per battle.
Mark Browne
>> Ok, I've seen this card mentioned several times now as
>>anti-ninja. Someone please explain that to me. You've got an army
>>attacking me. If you've split it into different armies attacking
>>different provinces I'll send you all home. If you haven't then what
>>good will Traversable Terrain do? I'm confused :(
>
> News flash: Traversable *doesn't* work, really. Here's
>the problem: the Ninja Stronghold can send home an army attacking
>one of their Provinces. Any Province, not just the current one.
>So even if you Sneak or Scout the Traversable into play, I take
>one action to send home the sneaking army and then another action
>to send home the unit in that other Province over there you were
>planning on Traversing in -- normally illegal by the Rule of
>Relevance, but the NS breaks that one too. You end up with the
>terrain in play and no one to move in with it.
Why is this so? - it doesn't specifically say that it breaks this rule,
so it doesn't break it. This has been a basic tenet of the game for
ages. Is the effect that you describe *really* what was intended by the
designers? If so, fine, but if not, errata should be issued, as the
power level of the "expanded" capability is much higher.
--
Mark Browne
Unicorn Clan Optimist
Manukumar Atul Patel
Earth, comes in real easy ;)
Fire, well, ninja do have all their nice toys ;)
Water, iffy, just like everyone else
Air, tricky, especially with mystics although spells would become ninja elemental
Void, as usual
--
Martin J Phillpot
David Q. Spitzley
> Jeff, I understand where you & Zen are coming from. But if there's no
> hard and fast ruling (other than the currently existing "stalling is
> bad" rule) we're literally stuck with two sides having a legit rules
> claim and no true resolution other than the same "stalling" cry.
On the other hand, isn't "stalling" already a legitimate call for a
tournament judge to make? If so, then applying it to this situation
should already resolve the problem, and the logic would be pretty much
identical. Do you have an objection to judges ruling on player stalling
in general? It is clearly legal to take one's time considering a move; it
is a matter of degree upon which the judge must rule. I don't see this
situation as significantly different.