Celestial Dawn? Overpowered a bit?
Scott Lewis
Celestial Dawn
Enchantment
WW1
All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
W.
So, I can play a mono-white (?) deck with things like:
bolts?
ernies?
giant growths?
hippies?
fireballs?
Does this worry anyone?
It allows you to make a white deck and throw in there a card that would fit
"just perfect" but is way "off-color". Counterspells, direct damage,
discard, super-fast mana all could be obtained without real penalty.
The only REAL loss of this card is the color of cards in hand (when you
play this card) and non-basic land turning to plains. (and taking up room
in your deck) In type I, this means the loss of the ultra-powerful Library
of Alex, but they lose nothing other than that. (Unless all the cards are
white only while they're still in your library and when you draw them they
go back to whatever, but that would be quite silly and pointless. . .)
Am I seeing this wrong? Am I imagining this card is more powerful than it
is?
I fear this card more than the new timewalk. (Which can be played no
matter what color your deck is with this sucker in play. . .)
-Scott-
Jonathan J Venezian
No, they just wanted to make Anarchys and Omens of Fire more popular..
(and glooms....)
Sam Lindsay-Levine
In article
<01bba3a9$8e3a3340$0f02...@fulmer143.residence.gatech.edu> Scott
Lewis wrote:
>Date: 16 Sep 1996 08:30:10 GMT
>From: "Scott Lewis" <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu>
>Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy
>Subject: Celestial Dawn? Overpowered a bit?
I know, this card is gonna rule! And look at white's new
tutor...artifacts or ENCHANTMENTS. =)
Stephen
YES!!!!!! Finally someone who sees that card my way!!! first glance at
it, i thought "WHOA!! Im gonna make a GREAT celestial dawn deck!! then i
looked down the list a few more cards, and what do i find? enlightened
tutor, which can search for enchantments and artifacts.. <zorb, black
vise, land tax [haha], and celestial dawn.. :)>
Well, at first glance, it became my favorite card in the set. <yes, it
was not the infamous totem.>
im looking forward to getting 4 of these. i dont care if they're $10 a
piece... this card will be a tourney winner.
Force of Nature
This f***ing card is going to be restricted faster than the zuran orb
was.
tys...@erols.com
Sam Lindsay-Levine wrote:
>
> In article
> <01bba3a9$8e3a3340$0f02...@fulmer143.residence.gatech.edu> Scott
> Lewis wrote:
> >Date: 16 Sep 1996 08:30:10 GMT
> >From: "Scott Lewis" <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu>
> >Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy
> >Subject: Celestial Dawn? Overpowered a bit?
> >
> >
> >All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All
> non-land
> >permanents you control are white. All lands you control are
> plains. All
> >colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and
> permanents are
> >W.
> >
Otherwise....I wanna see....ANARCHY...gee,does this mean Martyr's Cry
just got fun? Howabout that old favorite that stings you for each white
card in hand from the Dark? Prot. White horde decks,anyone?
Boy,it DOES change the equations. Pray I get this card in the sealed
deck tourney this weekend-it'd kick serious buttocks.
Enchantment removal good. Oh,and Essense Filter just got a whole new
lease on life....1GG(now 1WW)-Geek all non-white
enchantments...namely,any of theirs,none of yours.
-Paul T.
Jim Butcher
"Scott Lewis" <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>Celestial Dawn
>Enchantment
>WW1
>Does this worry anyone?
>-Scott-
I think you're missing something, the color of the cards in your hand
and all the casting costs on them also turn white, where did you get
the idea they didn't??
RIF RAF TD
uh how do you say disenchant fellows....do they not have disenchant in the
basic set on your world?
Dave Griffith
In article <01bba3a9$8e3a3340$0f02...@fulmer143.residence.gatech.edu>,
Scott Lewis <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>Celestial Dawn
>Enchantment
>WW1
>
>All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
>permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
>colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
>W.
Yeah, this one scared me too. Further consideration made me realize
that it's at most a one shot wonder.
>So, I can play a mono-white (?) deck with things like:
>
>bolts?
>ernies?
>giant growths?
>hippies?
>fireballs?
>
Yes.
>Does this worry anyone?
No, it just means I'll be sideboarding Gloom/Flashfires/Stench of Evil/
COP:White(!!) for a while until the craze dies down.
>"just perfect" but is way "off-color". Counterspells, direct damage,
>discard, super-fast mana all could be obtained without real penalty.
Yeah, but you couldn't fit much of that in and still have a chance
of successfully playing the card. Try to go four-color and pray
for the Dawn, and you'll die screaming if you can't pull it off.
There's a word for players who build their decks around one key
card. They're called "losers".
>I fear this card more than the new timewalk. (Which can be played no
>matter what color your deck is with this sucker in play. . .)
The new timewalk is good for nothing but a "Hail Mary" pass when
you're about to die anyway. Guys who bet their game on their
opponent not having a counterspell or anything else up their sleeve
have a name as well.
--
--Dave Griffith, grif...@crl.com
John Kozlowski
In article <01bba3a9$8e3a3340$0f02...@fulmer143.residence.gatech.edu>,
Scott Lewis <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>Celestial Dawn
>Enchantment
>WW1
>
>All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
>permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
>colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
>W.
>
>
>bolts?
>ernies?
>giant growths?
>hippies?
>fireballs?
>
>
>It allows you to make a white deck and throw in there a card that would fit
>discard, super-fast mana all could be obtained without real penalty.
>
>play this card) and non-basic land turning to plains. (and taking up room
>in your deck) In type I, this means the loss of the ultra-powerful Library
>of Alex, but they lose nothing other than that. (Unless all the cards are
>white only while they're still in your library and when you draw them they
>go back to whatever, but that would be quite silly and pointless. . .)
>
>Am I seeing this wrong? Am I imagining this card is more powerful than it
>is?
>
>matter what color your deck is with this sucker in play. . .)
>
Counterspell = WW
Walk = WW
Fork = WW
Tutor = WW
Regrow = WW
WOF = WW
Type I just got another restricted card. WIth twenty or so dual lands, this
will work fine . Cast the cards as you get them with the duals, then get out
your Dawn. You are unleashed. With every card white, play with a few crusades
and...
Black Knight = WW
White Knights = WW
Ernies = WWWW
Sengirs = WWWWW
Gwendylyn DiCorci = WWWW?
Lord of TresserHorn = WWWW ?!? REgenerate at W?
Oh my God.
John "GrimJack" Kozlowski
grim...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
Wedge
grim...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (John Kozlowski) wrote:
>Oh my God.
>John "GrimJack" Kozlowski
>grim...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
"generic mana" is not the same thing as "colored mana", so stuff like
the ernham djinn would cost W3 instead of WWWW.
Doug Faust
Scott Lewis wrote:
>
> So, I can play a mono-white (?) deck with things like:
>
> bolts?
> ernies?
> giant growths?
> hippies?
> fireballs?
>
> Does this worry anyone?
>
> It allows you to make a white deck and throw in there a card that would fit
> "just perfect" but is way "off-color". Counterspells, direct damage,
> discard, super-fast mana all could be obtained without real penalty.
>
> The only REAL loss of this card is the color of cards in hand (when you
> play this card) and non-basic land turning to plains. (and taking up room
> in your deck) In type I, this means the loss of the ultra-powerful Library
> of Alex, but they lose nothing other than that. (Unless all the cards are
> white only while they're still in your library and when you draw them they
> go back to whatever, but that would be quite silly and pointless. . .)
>
> matter what color your deck is with this sucker in play. . .)
>
> -Scott-
The only problem with "bleach" is that it is only one card, and to use it effectively, your
deck will have to depend on it. Its not that hard to get out with the white tutor (I wonder
if the tutors will eventually be restricted...), but you're in trouble if it's countered.
And with as many counterspells as people play with, it's not that rare of a case. Imagine
sitting there, having (blue) counters in your hand, and watching the other person Counter
your Bleach, helpless. I'm not saying that it's a bad card or anything, but anyone in there
right mind with a counter in their hand is going to go after it.
Doug Faust
dfa...@prodigy.net
Bryan Petersen
Sam Lindsay-Levine wrote:
>
> In article
> <01bba3a9$8e3a3340$0f02...@fulmer143.residence.gatech.edu> Scott
> Lewis wrote:
> >Date: 16 Sep 1996 08:30:10 GMT
> >From: "Scott Lewis" <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu>
> >Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy
> >Subject: Celestial Dawn? Overpowered a bit?
> >
> >
> >All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All
> non-land
> >permanents you control are white. All lands you control are
> plains. All
> >colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and
> permanents are
> >W.
> >
> >
> >bolts?
> >ernies?
> >giant growths?
> >hippies?
> >fireballs?
> >
> >Does this worry anyone?
> >
> >It allows you to make a white deck and throw in there a card that
> would fit
> >"just perfect" but is way "off-color". Counterspells, direct
> damage,
> >discard, super-fast mana all could be obtained without real penalty.
> >
> >The only REAL loss of this card is the color of cards in hand (when you
> >play this card) and non-basic land turning to plains. (and taking up room
> >in your deck) In type I, this means the loss of the ultra-powerful Library
> >of Alex, but they lose nothing other than that. (Unless all the cards are
> >white only while they're still in your library and when you draw them they
> >go back to whatever, but that would be quite silly and pointless. . .)
> >
> than it
> >is?
> >
> no
> >matter what color your deck is with this sucker in play. . .)
> >
> >-Scott-
>
> tutor...artifacts or ENCHANTMENTS. =)
Gloom/Dystopia would kinda suck though huh.
--
#include <signature.h>
+--------------------+---------------------------------------+
| Bryan Petersen | "Then what can I say? How can I |
| bry...@halcyon.com | disprove lies that are stamped with |
| Seattle, WA | an official seal of the truth?" |
| Green Day, Garbage | Special Agent Fox Mulder, FBI |
+--------------------+---------------------------------------+
Scott Lewis
> No, it just means I'll be sideboarding Gloom/Flashfires/Stench of Evil/
> COP:White(!!) for a while until the craze dies down.
But whoever plays it will play with tons of counterspells and will be
expecting those things coming it's way.
> Yeah, but you couldn't fit much of that in and still have a chance
> of successfully playing the card. Try to go four-color and pray
> for the Dawn, and you'll die screaming if you can't pull it off.
> There's a word for players who build their decks around one key
> card. They're called "losers".
I disagree. Think about this: All lands are either plains, duals,
pain-lands, or whatever. Everything that gives you white mana and
something else, proportioned so that you have a good chance of casting
everything in your deck normally. You use Enlightened Tutor to go find
Celestial Dawn, then put it into play. No mana problems, no pain from
pain-land. Building their deck around one key card? You could consider
the Prison built around one key card (the vice) and I don't consider him
much of a loser. . .
To say "Oh, I'll just use a white hoser. . ." doesn't work, because they'll
be packing counterspells. Yes, they won't have them all the time, and sure
you'll be able to get a hoser off sometime, but they don't have ANY mana
problems concerning multicolors. If they have 4 mana, they can slight
around a gloom, dystopia, and any other enchantment. They'll have artifact
mana to stay out of flashfire/stench of evil deaths.
This is a nasty card in the right hands.
-Scott-
Conor Sen
There's no such thing as an overpowered white card. :)
--
***************************************
Conor Sen
rons...@nfi.com
http://pages.prodigy.com/conor/
Scott Lewis <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote in article
<01bba3a9$8e3a3340$0f02...@fulmer143.residence.gatech.edu>...
Zorak, the lone locust of the appocolypse
An Anarchy would really mess you up if you laid that out. however, if it
does end up working like you pointed out (mono white with bolts, etc.)
then it is way too powerful and probably be banned/restricted after the
first couple of tournements involving Mirage.
Zorak
"Hey, speaking of strange mixes, wanna know what I had for breakfast this
morning? A sausage and mayonaise soup, a cream of corn omelett, some
milk I left out in the sun for a week, and some fuzzy bread!"
-Space Ghost
Jim Hamp
On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Force of Nature wrote:
> This f***ing card is going to be restricted faster than the zuran orb
> was.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Celestial Dawn
> Enchantment
> WW1
>
> All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
> permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
> colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents
> are
> W.
>
Holy Parma...I come in this morning ready to rant about it, and find it's
happened already.
This card *totally* throws off the game's balance. The built in weaknesses
of white disappear. Want fast mana? Cast a Light Ritual (formerly Dark
Ritual), get WWW for W. Add Tinder Walls (W, sac to get WW), White Mana
Elves (Formerly Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves, W 1/1 tap to add W). Want
direct damage? Try the new Whitehotball (formerly fireball, WX, do
X damage), or the new Whitening Bolt (W, 3 to any target). Someone tries
to disenchant it? No problem...Counterspells only cost WW. Memory lapse
only W, then use your white deckshuffler (forget the name, new alliances
1/1 that shuffles opponent's deck, used to cost R.) to take it far away.
Someone wants to Disk to get rid of it? Not through the Primitive
Justice that only costs W1.
Okay, it's got weaknesses...your Outpost is a plain, and Gloom hurts.
And a Hack will kill you (Your lands are now swamps, and your casting
costs all still have W...MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!). Flashfires or Stench of
Evil are gonna be bad. That's provided
the Gloom or Stench isn't countered, and the Hack isn't WEB'd (formerly
REB'ed), or Flashfires isn't WEB'ed (formerly BEB'ed).
And the new white Tutor can find it! Read it..."artifacts and enchantments".
Four of these, four Tutors, and you're almost guaranteed one by the time
you can cast it. Wasn't white strong enough anyway? Winning Worlds
didn't show how strong it is?
I lost sleep over this card...all I can say is, I hope I get one in the
prerelease Sealed Deck, and that anyone else who gets one doesn't read
the 'Net and doesn't realize the potential of this card. But that's in
my dreams...I'll bet money all the Prerelease winners have this card in
their decks.
With the Tutors being able to find even only one in your deck, I don't think
this is restriction bait...banning's too good for it.
I know, it probably can't do a first turn kill costing WW1, but it can
come out 2nd turn and easily by the third.
If I can trade for some this weekend, I'm gonna go home and make a deck,
then I'm gonna enter tournaments as soon as I can until they ban this puppy.
Hampster
Jim Hamp
On 17 Sep 1996, John Kozlowski wrote:
> In article <01bba3a9$8e3a3340$0f02...@fulmer143.residence.gatech.edu>,
> Scott Lewis <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
> >Celestial Dawn
> >Enchantment
> >WW1
> >
> >All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
> >permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
> >colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
> >W.
> >
>
> Type I just got another restricted card. WIth twenty or so dual lands, this
> will work fine . Cast the cards as you get them with the duals, then get out
> your Dawn. You are unleashed. With every card white, play with a few crusades
> and...
> Black Knight = WW
Work great with a now-white-damage Pestilence.
> White Knights = WW
> Ernies = WWWW
A powerhouse...Forestwalk this! I've got all plains! MUAHAHAHAHA!
> Sengirs = WWWWW
> Gwendylyn DiCorci = WWWW?
> Lord of TresserHorn = WWWW ?!? REgenerate at W?
>
Worse yet:
Dark Ritual = WWW for W
Mana Elves/bops for W produce W or any in case of bops, but that
just makes a multi-color deck stronger if CD goes away
*All* the fixed moxes produce W
Anarchy and Flashfires can be WEB'ed (used to be BEB) for W
Boomerangs can be WEB'ed (used to be REB) for W
LBolts = 3 damage for W
Fireballs et. al. are WX for X damage
> Oh my God.
>
An understatement if *ever* I heard one!
Can we say "broken", boys and girls? Sure we can!
> John "GrimJack" Kozlowski
> grim...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
>
Hampster
Jim Hamp
On 17 Sep 1996, Scott Lewis wrote:
> > No, it just means I'll be sideboarding Gloom/Flashfires/Stench of Evil/
> > COP:White(!!) for a while until the craze dies down.
>
CoP:White...not if you're using Gloom too! Flashfires can be WEB'ed
(Used to be BEB) for W. Stench of Evil can be countered for WW, Gloom
the same.i
mark trenner
RIF RAF TD wrote:
>
> uh how do you say disenchant fellows....do they not have disenchant in the
> basic set on your world?
it's in mirage too ( that will help in the pre-realse tourney and fog
might help but why did they put fog in it ? )
STEPHEN WILSON
On 16 Sep 1996, Scott Lewis wrote:
> Celestial Dawn
> Enchantment
> WW1
>
> All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
> permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
> colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
> W.
>
> So, I can play a mono-white (?) deck with things like:
>
> bolts?
> ernies?
> giant growths?
> hippies?
> fireballs?
>
> Does this worry anyone?
>
I don't know if this is he actual wording of the card, but the way it
reads here is that -
1. All your non-land permanents in play are white
2. All your lands are plains
3. All the mana symbols on all permanents (including land) are
changed to be white
It doesn't say anything about changing the mana symbol on cards in hand...
- so you can now only cast white spells.
If this is correct, it doesn't sound that great to me.
Robert Finkbeiner
>Celestial Dawn
>Enchantment
>WW1
>
>All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
>permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
>colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
>W.
>
If you really think this card is all that powerfull just think what
happens when your opponent plays gloom, or ever worse what happens
if he hacks the plains to swamps in the above card. Game over!!!
Eric R Reitz
Jim Hamp
Simple...you counterspell or boomerang the gloom, counterspell or WEB
(formerly REB) the hack, or boomerang CD (tap the mana before the hack
resolves) and
recast it. Don't have one? Use the blue tutor (costs W) to find one.
Sure, there's cards to hose *any* card. The point is, white now has
counterspells, blasts, boomerangs, etc. Every color is supposed to have
strengths and weaknesses...white has a harder time doing damage, has no
countermagic, is a fairly slow color, etc...that's gone now.
Hampster
Jonathan J. Miskulin
On 17 Sep 1996, RIF RAF TD wrote:
> uh how do you say disenchant fellows....do they not have disenchant in the
> basic set on your world?
Yeah!, bu Im a little too busy dreaming about White Shivan's, (too cool)
and using Dark Ritual's in a mono white deck! (Tap Dark Ritual, Dark
Ritual, I'll put out a Serra! WOOHOO!) Or all of a dual color deck get the
bonus' from a Crusade! It's a whole new world and Im gonna paint it
white!!!!!!!
Jonathan!
Ross McIntosh
Ah, but you forget.. you must draw the dawn first. if you have all of
those wierd colored spells in your deck you had better pray you draw a
dawn every game.
Sean MacDonald
Bryan Petersen <bry...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>Sam Lindsay-Levine wrote:
>Scott
>> Lewis wrote:
>> >Celestial Dawn Enchantment WW1
>> >
>> >All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All
>> non-land
>> >permanents you control are white. All lands you control are
>> plains. All
>> >colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and
>> permanents are
>> >W.
>> I know, this card is gonna rule! And look at white's new
>> tutor...artifacts or ENCHANTMENTS. =)
>
>Gloom/Dystopia would kinda suck though huh.
>
No, no; all you need is a Magical Hack. Suddenly, all their
lands are swamps (for example), but all their spells require
W.
--
-SM
"It seemed a dreadful injustice that these wise races should
perish at the hands of creatures who were still little more
than animals. It was as if vultures feasted on and squabbled
over the paralyzed body of the youthful poet who could only
stare at them with puzzled eyes as they slowly robbed him of
an exquisite existence they would never appreciate, never know
they were taking. 'If they valued what they stole, if they knew
what they were destroying...then I would be consoled.'"
-Michael Moorcock
Joe Fulgham
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.960918...@sparrow.qut.edu.au>, STEPHEN WILSON <n118...@sparrow.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>On 16 Sep 1996, Scott Lewis wrote:
>
>> Celestial Dawn
>> Enchantment
>> WW1
>>
>> All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
>> permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
>> colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
>> W.
>>
>>
>> bolts?
>> ernies?
>> giant growths?
>> hippies?
>> fireballs?
>>
>> Does this worry anyone?
>>
>
>I don't know if this is he actual wording of the card, but the way it
>reads here is that -
> 1. All your non-land permanents in play are white
> 2. All your lands are plains
> 3. All the mana symbols on all permanents (including land) are
> changed to be white
>
>It doesn't say anything about changing the mana symbol on cards in hand...
>
>
> - so you can now only cast white spells.
>
>If this is correct, it doesn't sound that great to me.
Celestial Dawn
Enchantment
Liz Danforth
WW1
All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are W.
Note that is says "on all of these cards" This includes "all non-land cards
you own that are not in play", so all their mana symbols are W, and that
includes casting cost.
One thing that I just noticed, though. I don't think Hack will work because
even though the land has been changed to a swamp, the mana symbol has been
changed to W, making it a Swamp that you tap for W. The only argument against
this is that it says "in all costs".
But if that's so, then your Bleached Fyndhorn Elves would still produce G.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Fulgham pu...@holycow.com
http://www.holycow.com/ PGP Key available
"There's nothing you can do about latency, it's inherent
in the system." "Yeah, the speed of light sucks."
- John Romero & John Carmack, designers of Quake
Rob Glunt
Hi, I'm new to this newsgroup, ( which can be easily determined by the
aol.com at the end of my address :-) ) and I've been following this
thread. There's one thing that I haven't seen mentioned though, and
forgive me if it has, but has anyone thought about all those nice legend
cards that can be cast easily with this spell. I mean, before, it was
tough to get those nice elder dragon legends out, but if this is in
effect, no big deal. This scares me..
Jim Hamp
On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Doug Faust wrote:
>
> The only problem with "bleach" is that it is only one card, and to use it effectively, your
> deck will have to depend on it. Its not that hard to get out with the white tutor (I wonder
> if the tutors will eventually be restricted...), but you're in trouble if it's countered.
> And with as many counterspells as people play with, it's not that rare of a case. Imagine
> sitting there, having (blue) counters in your hand, and watching the other person Counter
> your Bleach, helpless. I'm not saying that it's a bad card or anything, but anyone in there
> right mind with a counter in their hand is going to go after it.
>
> Doug Faust
> dfa...@prodigy.net
>
True, it's not good to depend on one card. Perhaps s touch of G and the
new mana elves, plus mana birds, would be good for this deck in case of
disaster.
Hampster
Doug Faust
Joe Fulgham wrote:
> One thing that I just noticed, though. I don't think Hack will work because
> even though the land has been changed to a swamp, the mana symbol has been
> changed to W, making it a Swamp that you tap for W. The only argument against
> this is that it says "in all costs".
>
> But if that's so, then your Bleached Fyndhorn Elves would still produce G.
No, actually it does work, for the reason you just said. The mana symbols on the land
are not part of its cost and are not affected by Bleach. And, yes, a Bleached elf
still makes G.
Doug Faust
dfa...@prodigy.net
Jim Hamp
On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Ross McIntosh wrote:
> Jim Hamp wrote:
> >
> > On 18 Sep 1996, Robert Finkbeiner wrote:
> >
> > > >Celestial Dawn
> > > >Enchantment
> > > >WW1
> > > >
> > > >All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
> > > >permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
> > > >colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
> > > >W.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If you really think this card is all that powerfull just think what
> > > happens when your opponent plays gloom, or ever worse what happens
> > > if he hacks the plains to swamps in the above card. Game over!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Eric R Reitz
> > >
> > Simple...you counterspell or boomerang the gloom, counterspell or WEB
> > (formerly REB) the hack, or boomerang CD (tap the mana before the hack
> > resolves) and
> > recast it. Don't have one? Use the blue tutor (costs W) to find one.
> >
> > Sure, there's cards to hose *any* card. The point is, white now has
> > counterspells, blasts, boomerangs, etc. Every color is supposed to have
> > strengths and weaknesses...white has a harder time doing damage, has no
> > countermagic, is a fairly slow color, etc...that's gone now.
> >
> > Hampster
>
> Ah, but you forget.. you must draw the dawn first. if you have all of
> those wierd colored spells in your deck you had better pray you draw a
> dawn every game.
>
Luckily, the white Tutor searches for enchantments. Put four of each in
your deck, and your chances of getting one of eight cards are pretty good.
Hampster
Michael Powell
endp...@mars.superlink.net (Wedge) wrote:
>"generic mana" is not the same thing as "colored mana", so stuff like
>the ernham djinn would cost W3 instead of WWWW.
Uh, isn't that nitpicking. After all, the only mana he will have will
be W so he'll be spending WWWW to pay the W3.
--
Michael Powell (powell clark.net)
--
"For the next 60 seconds, I will conduct a test of my emergency broadcast equipment.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Had this been a real emergency, the scream you just heard
would have been followed by lots more
just like it. This concludes my ..." - Calvin
Michael Powell
ref...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Robert Finkbeiner) wrote:
>>Celestial Dawn
>>Enchantment
>>WW1
>>
>>All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
>>permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
>>colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
>>W.
>>
>
>If you really think this card is all that powerfull just think what
>happens when your opponent plays gloom, or ever worse what happens
>if he hacks the plains to swamps in the above card. Game over!!!
>
>
>
> Eric R Reitz
Why would you let them? Surely you'd have more than enough
counterspells to take care of that.
Majesk
Okay . . . you play your celestial dawn. I'll play a Knight of Stromgald.
You ping it with your . . . WHITE serrated arrows? I don't think so . .
.
Nothing but the ramblings of a raving lunatic,
Brian Kibler
Member Team ASSKICKER
Co-Designer Kibler/Lepine Red Machine
Top 237,683 DCI Rated Player
Marco Verhoeven
rifr...@aol.com (RIF RAF TD) wrote:
>uh how do you say disenchant fellows....do they not have disenchant in the
>basic set on your world?
No, no, no you silly person. With such a great card like Celestial
Dawn you know they'd have to ban Disenchant. They just have to!
Let's all chant now 'Celestial Dawn, Celestial Dawn'
Marco
--
"Reality is for people who can't handle Star Trek."
Bill Goldman
In article <323D79...@tir.com>, Force of Nature <fo...@tir.com> wrote:
>This f***ing card is going to be restricted faster than the zuran orb
>was.
>
> Celestial Dawn
Great news for those of you who are already to ban Celestial Dawn.
Visions will take care of Celestial Dawn. I've seen these cards on
an uncut proof sheet smuggled out of WoTC. Quick is a new spell type
that is faster than a concession.
Treacherous Dawn B Quick
Bury Celestial Dawn in your graveyard. Change in ownership is permanent.
Use this card even if your are not playing for ante.
Celestial Hack U Quick
Change the text of target Celestial Dawn controlled by opponent to
text of your choice. Use a pen with black ink.
Celestial Dog G Quick
Put a dog into play in play area of target player who has Celestial
Dawn in play. All permanents, graveyards, and libraries eaten by dog
are removed from the game.
Burning Dawn R Quick
Place a lit match in play area of target opponent who controls
Celestial Dawn. Place an additional lit match for each {1}
spent in addition to casting cost.
Lennart Qvarnstrom
In article <323D79...@tir.com>, fo...@tir.com says...
> This f***ing card is going to be restricted faster than the zuran orb
> was.
No problemo. Just Hack Plains to Forests...
Lennart Qvarnstrom
Alexandre Laflamme
Majesk wrote:
>
> Okay . . . you play your celestial dawn. I'll play a Knight of Stromgald.
> You ping it with your . . . WHITE serrated arrows? I don't think so . .
decay...
The Nightfly
Let's look at some of these responses here...
Jim Hamp <jkh...@deimos.frii.com> wrote:
> Luckily, the white Tutor searches for enchantments. Put four of each in
> your deck, and your chances of getting one of eight cards are pretty good.
Good point. Moving on:
pow...@clark.net (Michael Powell) wrote:
> Why would you let them? Surely you'd have more than enough
> counterspells to take care of that.
Too true. Let's summarize our hypothetical deck so far:
4 Celestial Dwan
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterspell
4 Dissipate
2 Arcane Denial
Uh, guys, that's EIGHTEEN cards. Almost half the non-land deck. Where's
the actual DECK that Dawn is supposed to let you play? Once you throw in 4
StP's, let's say 3 Disenchants, you're up to 25 of roughly 40 card slots
taken up with no means to actually win the damn game. A 14-year-old's
white weenie swarm deck will eat this thing for lunch; he'll be throwing
out pumpknights while you're setting up the engine to allow you to use
your one fireball or whatever. And then he'll Disenchant your Dawn (big
smirk).
I'm not saying that Dawn is a useless card, but I remain to be convinced
that it will prove to be the game-breaking spell some people are
expecting.
***
"Dean Smith is God." -- The Chronicle, Dook student newspaper
Feb 4, 1994 Feb 3, 1995 Feb 1, 1996
Adam Cornwell
In article <323D79...@tir.com> Force of Nature <fo...@tir.com> writes:
>From: Force of Nature <fo...@tir.com>
>Subject: Re: Celestial Dawn? Overpowered a bit?
>Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:01:43 +0000
>This f***ing card is going to be restricted faster than the zuran orb
>was.
>
> Celestial Dawn
> Enchantment
> WW1
>
> All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
> permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
> colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents
>are
> W.
I haven't seen the card but it sure seems like Magical Hack would end your
game at interrupt speed...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam Cornwell
Perception is reality; reality is perception.
Petri Heiramo
pu...@holycow.com (Joe Fulgham) writes:
>>I don't know if this is he actual wording of the card, but the way it
>>reads here is that -
>> 1. All your non-land permanents in play are white
>> 2. All your lands are plains
>> 3. All the mana symbols on all permanents (including land) are
>> changed to be white
>>
>>It doesn't say anything about changing the mana symbol on cards in hand...
>>
>>
>> - so you can now only cast white spells.
>>
>>If this is correct, it doesn't sound that great to me.
>Celestial Dawn
>Enchantment
>Liz Danforth
>WW1
>All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
>permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
>colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are W.
> Note that is says "on all of these cards" This includes "all non-land cards
>you own that are not in play", so all their mana symbols are W, and that
>includes casting cost.
> One thing that I just noticed, though. I don't think Hack will work because
>even though the land has been changed to a swamp, the mana symbol has been
>changed to W, making it a Swamp that you tap for W. The only argument against
>this is that it says "in all costs".
And can't sleight it either for the very same reason. No matter
if all your cards are blue when they casting costs are W.
> But if that's so, then your Bleached Fyndhorn Elves would still produce G.
Seems so.
Ah, but think of using Protection from white against it... ;)
I could imagine using well selected BW-deck for great effect.
Pestilence and black pump knights and Cop: White.
Jours, Petri
_______________________________________________________________________
Petri Heiramo Lokinkuja 56, 45100 KOUVOLA, 05-3810177
hei...@lut.fi Karankokatu 4 B 13, 53810 LAPPEENRANTA, 0400-539536
http://www.lut.fi/~heiramo/
"The inclusion of any intelligent content is incidental."
Thomas R Scudder
Majesk (maj...@aol.com) wrote:
: Okay . . . you play your celestial dawn. I'll play a Knight of Stromgald.
: You ping it with your . . . WHITE serrated arrows? I don't think so . .
remember? And they can cast them all for WW, too...
--
Tom Scudder aka tom...@umich.edu <*> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~tomscud
UNALTERED REPRODUCTION and ^ @
DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT | (this whitespace for rent) @
INFORMATION is ENCOURAGED +-- Perth @
Norton
Joe Fulgham (pu...@holycow.com) wrote:
: Celestial Dawn
: Enchantment
: Liz Danforth
: WW1
: All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
: permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
: colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are W.
: Note that is says "on all of these cards" This includes "all non-land card
: you own that are not in play", so all their mana symbols are W, and that
: includes casting cost.
: One thing that I just noticed, though. I don't think Hack will work becaus
: even though the land has been changed to a swamp, the mana symbol has been
: changed to W, making it a Swamp that you tap for W. The only argument agains
: this is that it says "in all costs".
Well, the wording is costs. The mana symbol on the card isn't a cost, it
is the effect of tapping the land. From reading the text, I'd say that
any mana symbols in the text of the card don't change. For example, you
could pay 2WWWW for a Force of Nature, but still be required to pay
GGGG in the text. That GGGG isn't really a cost to do something. It's
a penalty for having the card in play.
However if there was a card that had an effect that you had to pay for,
such as 1U: Do X. Then I'd say that that was a cost and would be W.
The new format they've got for cost and effect should make it easier
to determine what things get changed.
There are going to have to be some heavy duty explanations for this card
after its release I imagine.
Regards
Mark Norton
--
===================+=========================================================
Mark D. Norton | Gravity is a harsh mistress
Cheryl Norton |
mno...@netcom.com |
=============================================================================
Peter A. Vogel
Jonathan J. Miskulin wrote:
>
> On 17 Sep 1996, RIF RAF TD wrote:
>
> > uh how do you say disenchant fellows....do they not have disenchant in the
> > basic set on your world?
>
> and using Dark Ritual's in a mono white deck! (Tap Dark Ritual, Dark
> Ritual, I'll put out a Serra! WOOHOO!)
Read the card text again. Card COSTS are changed, not the color of
mana they PRODUCE (except land, which is changed to plain, so it
produces W). But Dark Ritual will COST W, but PRODUCE BBB!
-Peter
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter A. Vogel Check out the future
SW DV Technical Lead of multimedia at
Chromatic Research, Inc. http://www.chromatic.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter A. Vogel
Jim Hamp wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Force of Nature wrote:
>
> > This f***ing card is going to be restricted faster than the zuran orb
> > was.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Celestial Dawn
> > Enchantment
> >
> > All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
> > permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
> > colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents
> > are
> > W.
> >
> happened already.
>
> This card *totally* throws off the game's balance. The built in weaknesses
> of white disappear. Want fast mana? Cast a Light Ritual (formerly Dark
> Ritual), get WWW for W.
Read it AGAIN. Carefully this time. You get BBB for W with Dark Ritual
under
celestial dawn:
"all colored mana symbols in all COSTS on all of these cards and
permanents are W"
The BBB in Dark ritual is NOT a COST.
>Add Tinder Walls (W, sac to get WW), White Mana
> Elves (Formerly Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves, W 1/1 tap to add W).
Nope, the mana isn't a COST!
>Want
> direct damage? Try the new Whitehotball (formerly fireball, WX, do
> X damage),
This is true.
>or the new Whitening Bolt (W, 3 to any target). Someone tries
> to disenchant it? No problem...Counterspells only cost WW. Memory lapse
> only W, then use your white deckshuffler (forget the name, new alliances
> 1/1 that shuffles opponent's deck, used to cost R.) to take it far away.
> Someone wants to Disk to get rid of it? Not through the Primitive
> Justice that only costs W1.
All true.
>
> Okay, it's got weaknesses...your Outpost is a plain, and Gloom hurts.
> And a Hack will kill you (Your lands are now swamps, and your casting
> costs all still have W...MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!).
yep.
> I lost sleep over this card...all I can say is, I hope I get one in the
> prerelease Sealed Deck, and that anyone else who gets one doesn't read
> the 'Net and doesn't realize the potential of this card. But that's in
> my dreams...I'll bet money all the Prerelease winners have this card in
> their decks.
Possibly, but you need to look a little more carefully, I don't think it
is as powerful as everyone is claiming. Only lands change to produce
white mana where they produced some other color before. It makes it
possible to use multi-colored decks with only plains, or with any land
combo, since everything will become white when you get to it. BUT,
spells
that produce mana, and effects that produce mana, etc. will still
produce
mana of the color specified.
Peter A. Vogel
STEPHEN WILSON wrote:
>
> On 16 Sep 1996, Scott Lewis wrote:
>
> > Enchantment
> > WW1
> >
> > All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
> > permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
> > colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
> > W.
> >
> >
> > bolts?
> > ernies?
> > giant growths?
> > hippies?
> > fireballs?
> >
> > Does this worry anyone?
> >
>
> reads here is that -
> 1. All your non-land permanents in play are white
> 2. All your lands are plains
> 3. All the mana symbols on all permanents (including land) are
> changed to be white
>
> It doesn't say anything about changing the mana symbol on cards in hand...
Actually, it does:
1. "All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white"
2. "All non-land permanents you control are white"
3. "All lands you control are plains"
4. "All colored mana symbols in all COSTS on all of these cards are W"
3+4 are the hosers:
Is a land in your hand or library a land you control at the time
of casting? I don't think so.
Is the mana produced by Dark Ritual, or Mana Elves a COST, NO, so
it doesn't change.
So, you can cast non-white spells using the white mana produced by all
the
lands you had in play at the time you cast (they all changed to plains),
since
the cost of the non-white spells has been changed to W. But what the
spells
produce is of the color specified on the card...
Not a great card, but it is powerful, just not as powerful as many
people would
believe...
Jim Hamp
On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Peter A. Vogel wrote:
> Jim Hamp wrote:
> >
> > happened already.
> >
> > This card *totally* throws off the game's balance. The built in weaknesses
> > of white disappear. Want fast mana? Cast a Light Ritual (formerly Dark
> > Ritual), get WWW for W.
>
>
> Read it AGAIN. Carefully this time. You get BBB for W with Dark Ritual
> under
> celestial dawn:
> "all colored mana symbols in all COSTS on all of these cards and
> permanents are W"
>
> The BBB in Dark ritual is NOT a COST.
Yeah, you'e right on this and the next comment...I didn't see it til
yesterday. :( >
> >Add Tinder Walls (W, sac to get WW), White Mana
> > Elves (Formerly Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves, W 1/1 tap to add W).
>
> Nope, the mana isn't a COST!
Hampster
Scott D Cameron
: All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
: permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
: colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
: W.
: So, I can play a mono-white (?) deck with things like:
: bolts?
: ernies?
: giant growths?
: hippies?
: fireballs?
: Does this worry anyone?
The potential of this card is great, but under-powered cards become severe
hosers against it. Imagine someone playing a conversion against you?
Unless you had a Nev's disk, or despotic scepter, your game would really
be over. Nothing but red mana for the rest of the game, and all your spells
require white to cast!!!
Scott C.
Cenneth Lööf
> cards that can be cast easily with this spell. I mean, before, it was
> tough to get those nice elder dragon legends out, but if this is in
> effect, no big deal. This scares me..
This makes me wonder:
Will the upkeep of the Elder Dragons be bleeched, and all other
upkeeps for that matter? It is a cost, so i guess it should.
What do all of you think?
Can I use an Oath of LIm Dul and pay with White?
A Black-White deck would be cool with this card.
/Cenneth
Peter A. Vogel
Jim Hamp wrote:
> > Black Knight = WW
>
> Work great with a now-white-damage Pestilence.
>
> > White Knights = WW
> > Ernies = WWWW
>
> A powerhouse...Forestwalk this! I've got all plains! MUAHAHAHAHA!
>
> > Sengirs = WWWWW
> > Gwendylyn DiCorci = WWWW?
> > Lord of TresserHorn = WWWW ?!? REgenerate at W?
> >
> Worse yet:
> Dark Ritual = WWW for W
> Mana Elves/bops for W produce W or any in case of bops, but that
> just makes a multi-color deck stronger if CD goes away
>
> *All* the fixed moxes produce W
NO, NO, NO. Read the card: "All COLORED mana symbols in all COSTS
on all these cards and permanents are W". Note that it does not
say "All colored mana symbols on all these cards and permanents are
W" which WOULD do what you say. Dark ritual costs W to produce
BBB (that you cannot use for squat since all costs are W, unless you
use the BBB for the generic mana in costs). Mana elves still
produce G, not W, since that is not a COST. Etc.
Erik Lunna
J> > Oh my God.
J> >
J> An understatement if *ever* I heard one!
J> Can we say "broken", boys and girls? Sure we can!
J>
J> > John "GrimJack" Kozlowski
J> > grim...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
J> >
J> Hampster
It's about time! t2 needs some excitement, some diversity, some.. well,
I'll think of something else but don't you think 'the Dawn' has a few
dissadvantages??
1: Can you say gloom?
2: How about stench of Evil, Flashfires, dystopia, and Omen of fire?
3: If they're playing blue: Counters, the new 'remove' counterspell
4: If they are playing green: hmm, ouch!
5: Another problem would _almost_ be speed, but with all the fellwars, 'new
moxes' and 'new lotus' that probably won't be a problem.
Other then pure sideboarding stuff, this looks like 'White Necro'!
I can just see it now: White necro vs. Black Necro
Who will win?
shih-jen hsu
Bill Goldman (gol...@tesuque.cs.sandia.gov) wrote:
: Great news for those of you who are already to ban Celestial Dawn.
: Visions will take care of Celestial Dawn. I've seen these cards on
: an uncut proof sheet smuggled out of WoTC. Quick is a new spell type
: that is faster than a concession.
: Treacherous Dawn B Quick
: Celestial Hack U Quick
: Celestial Dog G Quick
: Burning Dawn R Quick
I believe that! WOTC wants to be so sure that C.Dawn is "controlled" that
they will print 4 other cards to handle it, cards that are otherwise useless.
I guess you didn't get the sheet with "Zuran Curse", an enchantment that
does 5 pts during each player's upkeep if they control a zuran orb.
Please, at least try to make phony cards sound better!
Jen
(Yes, they are banning islands!)
Keith Miyake
Although Celestial Dawn is powerful, I don't think it'll become a dominating
card in tournaments just because of the many ways to hose white. Changing
all the card colors and lands makes it real fragile. You're going to have
to put those white fake moxes into the deck to make sure you have mana.
You only need to put one black pump knight out at a time to wreak havok.
One killer card against it that I haven't seen mentioned is the Raiding Party.
Once Celestial Dawn is out the white player can't counter it at all. Well
you have to have some orcs to power it, but they're dirt cheap.
Keith
--
kmi...@cs.rutgers.edu
n
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Distribution:
The Nightfly (nigh...@charlotte.infi.net) wrote:
: Too true. Let's summarize our hypothetical deck so far:
: 4 Celestial Dwan
: 4 Enlightened Tutor
: 4 Counterspell
: 4 Dissipate
: 2 Arcane Denial
: Uh, guys, that's EIGHTEEN cards. Almost half the non-land deck. Where's
: the actual DECK that Dawn is supposed to let you play? Once you throw in 4
: StP's, let's say 3 Disenchants, you're up to 25 of roughly 40 card slots
: taken up with no means to actually win the damn game. A 14-year-old's
: white weenie swarm deck will eat this thing for lunch; he'll be throwing
: out pumpknights while you're setting up the engine to allow you to use
: your one fireball or whatever. And then he'll Disenchant your Dawn (big
: smirk).
: I'm not saying that Dawn is a useless card, but I remain to be convinced
: that it will prove to be the game-breaking spell some people are
: expecting.
Consider a 2 card combo:
Ishan's Shade and Celestial Dawn
No spell your opponent has can target your shade.
No creature your opponent has in play can block the shade.
Your opponent has 4 turns to solve this problem.
For extra credit add a stromgald cabul :)
Eric Taylor
Majesk (maj...@aol.com) wrote:
: Okay . . . you play your celestial dawn. I'll play a Knight of Stromgald.
: You ping it with your . . . WHITE serrated arrows? I don't think so . .
I have a feeling protection from white creatures are going to be very
important against a bleach deck. That and gloom. I never thought
gloom would be big again because dystopia was so powerful. I had quit
playing gloom entirely because dystopia is so much better than gloom
against a blue/white deck which can slight that gloom against you, but
against a creatureless, bleached-counterspell/control or 5-color-necro
bleach deck, dystopia would be inferiour to gloom. I can imagine
playing dystopia against a 5-color-necro-bleach deck. "Dark ritual
dystopia. Hah suck on that bleach man." "Ok, I necro for 7 cards, let
dystopia kill my necropotence, draw a card, disenchant your dystopia,
and play out my hand, draw up my cards. Your turn."
Any spell in magic available to the bleach deck.
It boggles the mind.
White counterspells, white fireballs, white dark rituals, white
derelors with no drawbacks, white ernhams that can't be forestwalked, a
(restricted) white hymn to tourach, white pillages, heck, I would just
pack a few slights of mind in a bleach deck, slight my entire deck to
black if I found myself facing a black deck with prot white and use my
regular spells (like the white control magic or the white lightning
bolt).
--- edt
Matthew Jobe
Jim Hamp wrote:
(big snip)
>
> If I can trade for some this weekend, I'm gonna go home and make a deck,
> then I'm gonna enter tournaments as soon as I can until they ban this puppy.
>
> Hampster
Does anybody else out there think people are severely overreacting to
this card? Yeah, white can now use Ernhams, bolts and counters. But it
could before. It's called City of Brass.
Are you really going to load up on off-color stuff in hopes of getting
one of your Dawns? Yes, I know you can use the new enchantment tutor,
but if I'm not mistaken, that card doesn't even replace itself. That
means you will have 8 cards in your deck that don't do anything by
themselves. Only Turbostasis can get get away with this kind of
inefficiency, and that's only because of the extremely fucked up
environment created by Stasis.
Maybe there are powerful uses for Celestial Dawn, but I haven't heard
one yet. I don't think it's as simple as being able to use nonwhite
spells in a white deck. There are just a million better ways to
accomplish that.
-mat
Jim Hamp
On 20 Sep 1996, n wrote:
>
> Consider a 2 card combo:
> Ishan's Shade and Celestial Dawn
>
> No spell your opponent has can target your shade.
> No creature your opponent has in play can block the shade.
> Your opponent has 4 turns to solve this problem.
>
> For extra credit add a stromgald cabul :)
>
Jim Hamp
Well, imagine a white weenie swarm deck with counterspells to take care
of those pesky wraths, or the occasional burn spell to speed up the
process or take care of the opposing creatures. Remember that a white
weenie
deck won worlds without counterspells or burn. Now ask your question again.
Hampster
Dr. Clone
On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Matthew Jobe wrote:
> Jim Hamp wrote:
>
> (big snip)
>
> >
> > If I can trade for some this weekend, I'm gonna go home and make a deck,
> > then I'm gonna enter tournaments as soon as I can until they ban this puppy.
> >
> > Hampster
>
> Does anybody else out there think people are severely overreacting to
> this card?
All I can say is that if this card becomes a major tournament theme for a
type II deck, you're gonna see a lot of people sideboard anti-white cards
in their deck. And trust me--with Glooms and Anarchies, it's real easy.
----- -----
Christopher Richmond e-mail -----> cric...@students.uiuc.edu
Dr. Clone www -----> http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~crichmon
[ ACM / SigMusic / Beyond / University of Illinois / College of Engineering ]
----- -----
Dr. Clone
This is the most stupid post I've seen yet. So now Ihsan's a 5/5 white
proc white creature. Now he can be TERRORED, DARK BANISHED, FEASTED OR
FAMINED. Or you could Fissure him (like you always could before). Or
hell, two bolts will still do him in. Making Ihsan a white proc white
only makes him stupider.
Jim Hamp
On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Matthew Jobe wrote:
> Jim Hamp wrote:
>
> (big snip)
>
> >
> > If I can trade for some this weekend, I'm gonna go home and make a deck,
> > then I'm gonna enter tournaments as soon as I can until they ban this puppy.
> >
> > Hampster
>
> Does anybody else out there think people are severely overreacting to
> this card? Yeah, white can now use Ernhams, bolts and counters. But it
> could before. It's called City of Brass.
>
Didn't CoB do damage? Plains don't.
> Are you really going to load up on off-color stuff in hopes of getting
> one of your Dawns? Yes, I know you can use the new enchantment tutor,
> but if I'm not mistaken, that card doesn't even replace itself. That
> means you will have 8 cards in your deck that don't do anything by
> themselves. Only Turbostasis can get get away with this kind of
> inefficiency, and that's only because of the extremely fucked up
> environment created by Stasis.
>
Well, I've changed my thoughts a little, after rereading and finding out that
CD doesn't change *all* mana symbols, just costs. I think the best use
for this card is in white weenie, to give it counters and burn without
much off-color stuff.
*But*, WW won Worlds *without* counters and burn...don't you think
enhancing it this much at this stage will make it overpowerful?
Even a deck with 3 Dawn, no tutor, 3 bolts and 3 counters, plus all the
standard weenies, is more powerful than a WW without these. Nine slots,
granted, maybe a few pseudomoxen to use them if you *don't get Dawn,
could make a good white weenie deck.
I'd say this is useless debate. Let's see a few Dawn decks in action,
and see how they do. Then we'll know.
Hampster
Reimon
"Peter A. Vogel" <pvo...@chromatic.com> writes:
>3+4 are the hosers:
> Is a land in your hand or library a land you control at the time
> of casting? I don't think so.
I think the lands not in play would become plains as soon as they reach
play as long as the enchantment is out. The reason the first line says
"All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white." Is both so
that non-permanents you own become white too. Otherwise it would have just
said All non-land permanents you control are white.
Anyway in repsonse to anarchy, disenchant, etc. You can play with that
white spell that enables you to name a card and that card cannot be
played. True your opponent can name a card too, but then just play with no
more than 2 of any one card in your deck. That shouldn't be a problem
since you have all 5 colors plus artifacts and gold to choose from. If
your opponent can never disenchant or otherwise destroy your celestial
dawn, you should be set mana wise for the rest of the game.
Scott D Cameron
: : Celestial Dawn
: : Enchantment
: : WW1
: : All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
: : permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
: : colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
: : W.
: The potential of this card is great, but under-powered cards become severe
: hosers against it. Imagine someone playing a conversion against you?
: Unless you had a Nev's disk, or despotic scepter, your game would really
: be over. Nothing but red mana for the rest of the game, and all your spells
: require white to cast!!!
: Scott C.
Wow... I think I'll flame myself on this one. Um, conversion makes
Mountains into Plains and not vice versa. Magical hack would actually do
what I meant... I think I'll just sit down and shut up, now...
Scott C.
Sean M. Baker
Dave Griffith wrote:
>
> In article <01bba3a9$8e3a3340$0f02...@fulmer143.residence.gatech.edu>,
> Scott Lewis <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
> >Celestial Dawn
> >Enchantment
> >WW1
> >
> >All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
> >permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
> >colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
> >W.
>
> that it's at most a one shot wonder.
>
> >So, I can play a mono-white (?) deck with things like:
> >
> >bolts?
> >ernies?
> >giant growths?
> >hippies?
> >fireballs?
> >
>
>
> >Does this worry anyone?
>
> No, it just means I'll be sideboarding Gloom/Flashfires/Stench of Evil/
> COP:White(!!) for a while until the craze dies down.
Heh, magical hack (or the new one). All your casting costs are W. All
you lands are mountains. Have fun, thanks for playing.
--Sean
Jim Hamp
On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Rob Glunt wrote:
> Hi, I'm new to this newsgroup, ( which can be easily determined by the
> aol.com at the end of my address :-) ) and I've been following this
> thread. There's one thing that I haven't seen mentioned though, and
> forgive me if it has, but has anyone thought about all those nice legend
> cards that can be cast easily with this spell. I mean, before, it was
> tough to get those nice elder dragon legends out, but if this is in
> effect, no big deal. This scares me..
>
Yep, thougt about that one, too. But I didn't want to give away *all* y
Dawn deck secrets. :)
Hampster
Talvin
In article <51ptls$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, maj...@aol.com (Majesk)
writes:
>Okay . . . you play your celestial dawn. I'll play a Knight of
Stromgald.
> You ping it with your . . . WHITE serrated arrows? I don't think so .
.
>.
no, i'd tap WW and counter it.
>
>
>Nothing but the ramblings of a raving lunatic,
>Brian Kibler
>Member Team ASSKICKER
>Co-Designer Kibler/Lepine Red Machine
>Top 237,683 DCI Rated Player
>
>
T.J. Xenos
Member-Team gonna beat the hell out of Nate Clarke
Designer of the Stone Giant/Flying Island Fish deck
Designer of the Arena/Legend Roman colliseum deck
The guy who collects Brothers of Fire and Dwarven Warriors
Sean M. Baker
Bill Goldman wrote:
>
> In article <323D79...@tir.com>, Force of Nature <fo...@tir.com> wrote:
> >This f***ing card is going to be restricted faster than the zuran orb
> >was.
> >
> > Celestial Dawn
>
> Great news for those of you who are already to ban Celestial Dawn.
> Visions will take care of Celestial Dawn. I've seen these cards on
> an uncut proof sheet smuggled out of WoTC. Quick is a new spell type
> that is faster than a concession.
>
> Treacherous Dawn B Quick
>
> Use this card even if your are not playing for ante.
>
> Celestial Hack U Quick
>
> Change the text of target Celestial Dawn controlled by opponent to
> text of your choice. Use a pen with black ink.
>
> Celestial Dog G Quick
>
> Put a dog into play in play area of target player who has Celestial
> Dawn in play. All permanents, graveyards, and libraries eaten by dog
> are removed from the game.
>
> Burning Dawn R Quick
>
> Place a lit match in play area of target opponent who controls
> Celestial Dawn. Place an additional lit match for each {1}
> spent in addition to casting cost.
Don't forget to mention the artifact and multicolored cards...
Artificial Darkness 3 Artifact
You may choose to play Artificial Darkness as a Quick; if you do,
bonk yourself on the head with a large, wooden mallet. For every
star you see, gain 2 life.
3T: Bury target Celestial Dawn. Then plant some grass and a nice
shade tree. Maybe a few flowers. Tulpis are nice.
The Sky is Falling 2GRB Quick
Tap target Celestial Dawn. When target owner of Celestial Dawn
complains, target accomplice quickly throws a pillowcase over
his or her head, and clubs him or her into submission by repeating
such phrases as "I'll twiddle your dingus!", "I'll hymn you
and attack with my hippy", and "The sixth sick sheek's sixth
sheep's sick!". Then laugh and go for a beer.
Dinner at Dawn 1WWB Quick
Play only when Celestial Dawn comes into play. Pick up a big slice
of pizza, squint your eyes accusingly, mumble "Wait a sec...", and
pick up Celestial Dawn and pretend to read it over. Take a couple
more tries. Don't forget to not wipe your hands! Accidently drop
in into the garlic sauce. Then say, "Hey, this card is marked!"
Then leave and don't pay for your half of the pizza.
Jim Hamp
On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Peter A. Vogel wrote:
> STEPHEN WILSON wrote:
> >
> > On 16 Sep 1996, Scott Lewis wrote:
> >
> > > Celestial Dawn
> > > Enchantment
> > > WW1
> > >
> > > All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
> > > permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
> > > colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are
> > > W.
> > >
> > > So, I can play a mono-white (?) deck with things like:
> > >
> > > bolts?
> > > ernies?
> > > giant growths?
> > > hippies?
> > > fireballs?
> > >
> > > Does this worry anyone?
> > >
> >
> > I don't know if this is he actual wording of the card, but the way it
> > reads here is that -
> > 1. All your non-land permanents in play are white
> > 2. All your lands are plains
> > 3. All the mana symbols on all permanents (including land) are
> > changed to be white
> >
> > It doesn't say anything about changing the mana symbol on cards in hand...
>
> Actually, it does:
> 1. "All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white"
> 2. "All non-land permanents you control are white"
> 3. "All lands you control are plains"
> 4. "All colored mana symbols in all COSTS on all of these cards are W"
>
> 3+4 are the hosers:
> Is a land in your hand or library a land you control at the time
> of casting? I don't think so.
>
> Is the mana produced by Dark Ritual, or Mana Elves a COST, NO, so
> it doesn't change.
>
True.
> So, you can cast non-white spells using the white mana produced by all
> the
> lands you had in play at the time you cast (they all changed to plains),
Not True. A continuous enchantment has a continuous effect (hence the name),
or white creatures brought out after Crusades was played wouldn't get the
bonus.
Hampster
Stephen
>The potential of this card is great, but under-powered cards become severe
>hosers against it. Imagine someone playing a conversion against you?
>Unless you had a Nev's disk, or despotic scepter, your game would really
>be over. Nothing but red mana for the rest of the game, and all your spells
>require white to cast!!!
>
>Scott C.
Uhhmmmm, doesn't Conversion change Mountains to Plains and not the other
way around?:)
Liberator
mno...@netcom.com (Norton) wrote:
>Joe Fulgham (pu...@holycow.com) wrote:
>Well, the wording is costs. The mana symbol on the card isn't a cost, it
>is the effect of tapping the land. From reading the text, I'd say that
>any mana symbols in the text of the card don't change. For example, you
>could pay 2WWWW for a Force of Nature, but still be required to pay
>GGGG in the text. That GGGG isn't really a cost to do something. It's
>a penalty for having the card in play.
You would only pay WWWW because it is the cost not to do something.
You're paying WWWW not to be hit for 8 damage. My take is that
anything with a mana symbol is changed to W.
That's my thought on it anyway.
Abaddon
Did it ever occur to you that WotC is a whole lot smarter than you give
them credit for?
Trevor Barrie
pu...@holycow.com (Joe Fulgham) wrote:
>All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white. All non-land
>permanents you control are white. All lands you control are plains. All
>colored mana symbols in all costs on all of these cards and permanents are W.
> One thing that I just noticed, though. I don't think Hack will work because
>even though the land has been changed to a swamp, the mana symbol has been
>changed to W, making it a Swamp that you tap for W. The only argument against
>this is that it says "in all costs".
Which is a pretty obviously correct argument, now isn't it?
> But if that's so, then your Bleached Fyndhorn Elves would still produce G.
Yep.
SCN User
Celestial Dawn + Grinning Totem = actually cast whatever the totem pulls.
CD means being able to load a white deck with ANYTHING YOU WANT, since
you'll be able to come up with the color to cast it. I think I'll
assemble a five-color white deck around this one...
--Mirth
--
ATTENTION! Scud Disposable Robot Assassin: SURREALITY
Heartbreaker Series 1373 JUST
This Unit Will Self-Destruct GOT
Upon Termination Of Target FUNKY.
Jim Hamp
On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, HENRY HUANG wrote:
> >>
> >Well, I've changed my thoughts a little, after rereading and finding out that
> >CD doesn't change *all* mana symbols, just costs. I think the best use
> >for this card is in white weenie, to give it counters and burn without
> >much off-color stuff.
> >
> >*But*, WW won Worlds *without* counters and burn...don't you think
> >enhancing it this much at this stage will make it overpowerful?
> >
> >Even a deck with 3 Dawn, no tutor, 3 bolts and 3 counters, plus all the
> >standard weenies, is more powerful than a WW without these. Nine slots,
> >granted, maybe a few pseudomoxen to use them if you *don't get Dawn,
> >could make a good white weenie deck.
> >
> >I'd say this is useless debate. Let's see a few Dawn decks in action,
> >and see how they do. Then we'll know.
> >
> >Hampster
>
> I somewhat agree. White is a complete color without the help of other colors,
> I believe white is so self-sufficient that using CD will just be a waste of
> space. For white weenie, Adarkar Wastes provide the means for limited
> counterspelling ability in the form of hydroblasts, sleights, and others.
>
> :write
>
But it has little direct damage, and it's creature defense all has drawbacks
StP gives life, Reprisal is limited to power of 4 or more, Wrath kills
all your weenies.
The ability to combine it with red, blue, black, whatever color you want,
with tremndosly less chance of getting color screwed, is going to make it
more powerful.
Hampster
Andreas
Im not sure but i think ft...@aurora.alaska.edu (n) said...
>The Nightfly (nigh...@charlotte.infi.net) wrote:
>: I'm not saying that Dawn is a useless card, but I remain to be convinced
>: that it will prove to be the game-breaking spell some people are
>: expecting.
>
>Ishan's Shade and Celestial Dawn
>No spell your opponent has can target your shade.
Fireball, Drain Life... lots of cards, that are'nt white.
>No creature your opponent has in play can block the shade.
Huh? What about my own _black_ Ihsans Shade, my _green_ Ehrnam Djinn, or my
_red_ Shivan dragon. Why do they have problems blocking your _white_ Ihsan
with protection from White?
>Your opponent has 4 turns to solve this problem.
>
>For extra credit add a stromgald cabul :)
RTFC, its only _your_ cards that turn white, not your opponents nor anyone
elses. The only thing i can think of with Ishans Shade and C.Dawn is playing
an Ihsan *against* someone with the dawn "Ohhh, is that a WHITE serrated
arrows you have there?" :)
--
Andreas.
"...two roads diverged in a wood, and i took the one less traveled by,
and that has made all the difference."
-R. Frost.
Kevin Seachrist
> Im not sure but i think ft...@aurora.alaska.edu (n) said...
> >The Nightfly (nigh...@charlotte.infi.net) wrote:
> >: I'm not saying that Dawn is a useless card, but I remain to be convinced
> >: that it will prove to be the game-breaking spell some people are
> >: expecting.
> >
> >Consider a 2 card combo:
> >Ishan's Shade and Celestial Dawn
> >No spell your opponent has can target your shade.
>
Terror and Dark Banishing come to mind. Making Ishan's Shade white
removes half its defense. That's the tradeoff for castability, I guess.
Cheers,
Kevin
nag...@miavx1.muohio.edu
In article <323F0D...@prodigy.net>, Doug Faust <DFA...@prodigy.net> writes:
> Scott Lewis wrote:
>>
>> So, I can play a mono-white (?) deck with things like:
>>
>> bolts?
>> ernies?
>> giant growths?
>> hippies?
>> fireballs?
>>
>> Does this worry anyone?
>>
>> "just perfect" but is way "off-color". Counterspells, direct damage,
>> discard, super-fast mana all could be obtained without real penalty.
>>
>> The only REAL loss of this card is the color of cards in hand (when you
>> play this card) and non-basic land turning to plains. (and taking up room
>> in your deck) In type I, this means the loss of the ultra-powerful Library
>> of Alex, but they lose nothing other than that. (Unless all the cards are
>> white only while they're still in your library and when you draw them they
>> go back to whatever, but that would be quite silly and pointless. . .)
>>
>> I fear this card more than the new timewalk. (Which can be played no
>> matter what color your deck is with this sucker in play. . .)
>>
>> -Scott-
>
> The only problem with "bleach" is that it is only one card, and to use it effectively, your
> deck will have to depend on it. Its not that hard to get out with the white tutor (I wonder
> if the tutors will eventually be restricted...), but you're in trouble if it's countered.
> And with as many counterspells as people play with, it's not that rare of a case. Imagine
> sitting there, having (blue) counters in your hand, and watching the other person Counter
> your Bleach, helpless. I'm not saying that it's a bad card or anything, but anyone in there
> right mind with a counter in their hand is going to go after it.
>
> Doug Faust
> dfa...@prodigy.net
So play your deck as a true blue-white, throw in enough islands to get your
counters off to insure bleach gets into play, and once it does the islands
behave as plains instead, you've lost nothing.
Riag Yeah
Why ignore the obvious? Magical Hack the Celestial Dawn to Swamps (or
another land besides Plains) or something, or Sleight it to say Black (or
another color besides white). Unless your opponent can Counterspell it,
they are pretty much dead in the water, all their cards are white.. all
their mana is black.. or vice versa. It can be overrated, but it can also
be powerfull.. It just depends on how you look at it. You can cast
anything no matter what the color of mana that you need, because it would
all be white. You can use it as a sideboard card against things like Red
Decks who usually will sideboard in the Blasts if you're playing Blue as
well as white. Well.. go ahead buddy, try to Blast my White Counterspell,
He would have to Thoughtlace it first ;). Oh well.. my two cents... flame
at will
Riag
Dave Griffith
In article <01bba4d3$5db4b800$0f02...@fulmer143.residence.gatech.edu>,
Scott Lewis <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>> No, it just means I'll be sideboarding Gloom/Flashfires/Stench of Evil/
>> COP:White(!!) for a while until the craze dies down.
>
>expecting those things coming it's way.
Tons of counterspells they won't be able to cast very effectively until
the Dawn comes. Tons of counterspells that can themselves be countered.
Tons of counterspells that will get them hurt badly by a first or second
turn Sirroco (the next big sideboard card, IMHO). Tons of counterspells
that take up space that could have been used by something that can
actually kill me. Everytime a fragile new strategy comes along, someone
yammers about using tons of counterspells to protect it, and then by
ghod it'll trounce everyone. It works just often enough to keep
the suckers buying, but never enough to become really dominant. With
Scirroco and (especially) the fixed vise coming up, I just don't see
it happening.
>
>> Yeah, but you couldn't fit much of that in and still have a chance
>> of successfully playing the card. Try to go four-color and pray
>> for the Dawn, and you'll die screaming if you can't pull it off.
>> There's a word for players who build their decks around one key
>> card. They're called "losers".
>
>I disagree. Think about this: All lands are either plains, duals,
>pain-lands, or whatever. Everything that gives you white mana and
>something else, proportioned so that you have a good chance of casting
>everything in your deck normally. You use Enlightened Tutor to go find
>Celestial Dawn, then put it into play. No mana problems, no pain from
>pain-land. Building their deck around one key card? You could consider
>the Prison built around one key card (the vice) and I don't consider him
>much of a loser. . .
The Prison is built around the beautiful and surprisingly durable synergy
of at least four cards, each powerful on their own ('Geddon, Icy, Winter
Orb, Fellwar, arguably Wrath). The Vise is merely a finisher. Frankly
there's a dozen cards that could have been used in that role (Insects,
Millstone, Helm, Titania, Mishras), and have been in variants.
As for the various new Tutor spells, expect Millstones or (better) Helms
to become quite popular come Oct. 8.
>To say "Oh, I'll just use a white hoser. . ." doesn't work, because they'll
>be packing counterspells. Yes, they won't have them all the time, and sure
>you'll be able to get a hoser off sometime, but they don't have ANY mana
>problems concerning multicolors.
This is a valuable benefit. It's just not valuable enough to risk building
half your deck around. Between counters, tutors, and dawns, you're talking
twenty cards easy. If you're playing that much blue and white already,
your color problems could be more easily solved by Cities and Ardarkar
Wastes.
>If they have 4 mana, they can slight
>around a gloom, dystopia, and any other enchantment. They'll have artifact
>mana to stay out of flashfire/stench of evil deaths.
Not after the Anarchy, they won't...
>This is a nasty card in the right hands.
It's a nasty card, but so are Storm Cauldron, Ritual of Subdual, and Oath
of Lim Dul. To win games requiress nasty _strategies_. So far no one's
come up with a nasty enough strategy for Celestial Dawn (or the Cauldron,
the Ritual, or the Oath, moresthepity). My guess is that no one will.
--
--Dave Griffith, grif...@crl.com
Matthew Jobe
Jim Hamp wrote:
(snip)
>
> *But*, WW won Worlds *without* counters and burn...don't you think
> enhancing it this much at this stage will make it overpowerful?
>
> Even a deck with 3 Dawn, no tutor, 3 bolts and 3 counters, plus all the
> standard weenies, is more powerful than a WW without these. Nine slots,
> granted, maybe a few pseudomoxen to use them if you *don't get Dawn,
> could make a good white weenie deck.
I have a W/u Sleight weenie deck that uses 4 Arcane Denials. I think
counters do help the weenie deck a lot, mainly against Wraths, Clasms
and Arrows. However, 4 Adarkar Wastes and a couple of Islands are more
than enough blue for the deck. And using Denials instead of counters
doesn't bother me one bit. After all, Wraths and Clasms will put me at
more of a card disadvantage than the Denial. Plus, Armageddon often
makes those extra cards useless for my opponent.
I'm sure bolts would be nice, too, but not nice enough to bother with.
Since I already use 4 Plows, the only reason I can think of to use
bolts is for protection against black pump knights, which wouldn't
work with Dawn because the bolts would be white spells. If I did want
to use bolts, I'd pack Cities.
The thing is, white weenie already has so many great cards at its
disposale that you don't need to go outside of white to find more. I
mean, you can already have 4 Plows, 4 Disenchant, 1 Balance, 1 Tax, 4
Armageddon, 4 Outposts, 4 Crusades, etc. Sometimes when I sit down to
make a white weenie deck, I put in so many of these cards that I run
out of room for the weenies!
If you look at the world champion's deck, you'll notice that all the
fat has been trimmed (except for the one Sleight, that is). The result
is that it fits in 24 of type 2's most efficient creatures. It is
virtually impossible to get a bad draw with this kind of deck. Add
counters, bolts and Dawns and the chances of a bad draw increase
dramatically.
>
> I'd say this is useless debate. Let's see a few Dawn decks in action,
> and see how they do. Then we'll know.
>
> Hampster
It is a useless debate, but it's all I've got, dammit. Until the cards
come out, that is.
-mat
Jim Hamp
On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Matthew Jobe wrote:
> Jim Hamp wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>
> The thing is, white weenie already has so many great cards at its
> disposale that you don't need to go outside of white to find more. I
> mean, you can already have 4 Plows, 4 Disenchant, 1 Balance, 1 Tax, 4
> Armageddon, 4 Outposts, 4 Crusades, etc. Sometimes when I sit down to
> make a white weenie deck, I put in so many of these cards that I run
> out of room for the weenies!
>
White is a fairly slow color, however. That's why weenies work...they
require little mana. Imagine mana enhancers and direct damage. Dawn is
*not* a gamebreaker, any more than Necro is...it's something that can
enhance an already strong color to the point where it's unbalanced.
> If you look at the world champion's deck, you'll notice that all the
> fat has been trimmed (except for the one Sleight, that is). The result
> is that it fits in 24 of type 2's most efficient creatures. It is
> virtually impossible to get a bad draw with this kind of deck. Add
> counters, bolts and Dawns and the chances of a bad draw increase
> dramatically.
>
Well, the Dawn can turn many draws that would be bad into good draws.
IOW, if I play R/G, get 4 red creatures and 3 forests in my draw, that
could be bad. If I get dawns/counters/bolts, and plains, it's okay.
> >
> > I'd say this is useless debate. Let's see a few Dawn decks in action,
> > and see how they do. Then we'll know.
> >
> > Hampster
>
> It is a useless debate, but it's all I've got, dammit. Until the cards
> come out, that is.
> -mat
>
Darn, didn't get one in the prerelease...but I can't wait to try out my
Rock Basilisk....
Hampster
Doug
> It's a nasty card, but so are Storm Cauldron, Ritual of Subdual, and Oath
> of Lim Dul. To win games requiress nasty _strategies_. So far no one's
> come up with a nasty enough strategy for Celestial Dawn (or the Cauldron,
> the Ritual, or the Oath, moresthepity). My guess is that no one will.
My attempt at a Storm Cauldron deck is not too pathetic. It uses the
obvious combos (except Land's Edge). Winter's Night, depletion lands,
Stormbind, Stormseeker, vice, Ivory Tower, Library of Leng. I have
noticed however that whenever I get the vice down it has an overwhelming
effect on my opponent. (It takes a few rounds to recover from casting
high cost spells and in the process you take 4 or so damage. Not to
mention you are really nervous that I may be holding a Storm Seeker.)
When the new vice (Miser's Cage) comes out I will have 5 vice in this deck
and probably eliminate the Ivory tower, Library of Leng. Multiple vices
on your opponent will make it _very_ painful to cast big spells and very
painfull to hold onto them. Just talking about it makes me want to run
home and proxy some Miser's Cages in. :-)
Storm Cauldron decks may get off the ground yet :-)
One point is that unlike a howling mine, Storm Cauldron is not an
automatic shatter. If an opponent plays a howling mine and you hold a
shatter you should destroy the Howling Mine after you draw (usually).
Because you are paying a card to remove his card (even trade card
advantage wise) but gaining a draw that he doesn't. Shattering a Storm
Cauldron the round after it is cast means that you get to lay two lands,
and then take them up. In a sense you have traded a card for a card, and
forgone your chance to lay a land that turn, while your opponent got to
lay an extra one last turn. So you must wait for an opportune moment to
shatter the Storm Cauldron. For this reason I am fairly comfortable
playing the Storm Cauldron without any counterspells to protect it.
Besides they will really want to save their shatters for the 5 vices that
I am likely to play.
Patrick Allison
>Tons of counterspells they won't be able to cast very effectively until
>the Dawn comes. Tons of counterspells that can themselves be countered.
>Tons of counterspells that will get them hurt badly by a first or second
>turn Sirroco (the next big sideboard card, IMHO). Tons of counterspells
*cough* Woah. Sirocco? What blue instants or interrupts? All the
counterspells I have in my hand are *white*!
(Yes. With the Dawn, All cards in your hand are *white*, not their natural
color.)
The Dawn is very powerful, simply because with Enlightened Tutor, it's a
breeze to fetch out. Play 4 Dawns, 4 Tutors, and then add a Foresight to strip
the Dawns out when you get one. I tried this deck out, and it was pretty
weak, but simply because I made it a fun duck. :) As a tourney viable deck, it
can be done, I'm sure.
Pat
Wayne Woodman
Peter A. Vogel (pvo...@chromatic.com) wrote:
: STEPHEN WILSON wrote:
: >
: > On 16 Sep 1996, Scott Lewis wrote:
: > It doesn't say anything about changing the mana symbol on cards in hand...
: Actually, it does:
: 1. "All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white"
: 2. "All non-land permanents you control are white"
: 3. "All lands you control are plains"
: 4. "All colored mana symbols in all COSTS on all of these cards are W"
: 3+4 are the hosers:
: Is a land in your hand or library a land you control at the time
: of casting? I don't think so.
No, but Dawn is an Enchantment, so as soon as you lay the land, bingo, it
is a plains.
Wayne
Jinx
Dear sir,
perhaps you realise that a magical hack or mind rend would completely cripple your deck?
Kendall Redburn
Isn't all this esoteric debate wonderful. People have been looking at
the spoiler list and predicting "worlds most powerful card" scenarios,
completely forgetting that these cards were carefully play tested and
tweeked to help prevent WOTC from ever having to ban or restrict them.
The cards that are banned or restricted are all old cards. Mind Twist,
balance
channel, chaos orb, moxes, lotus, have all been around since
the beginning, the youngest card to be banned is the hymn.
So don't go expecting there to be this 1 card that set's the world on
fire,
sure it's possible, but frankly, all of this bally hoo is just too damn
premature. BTW my next guess for restriction (Howling Mine!)
Kendall
Trevor Barrie
pow...@clark.net (Michael Powell) wrote:
>>"generic mana" is not the same thing as "colored mana", so stuff like
>>the ernham djinn would cost W3 instead of WWWW.
>Uh, isn't that nitpicking. After all, the only mana he will have will
>be W so he'll be spending WWWW to pay the W3.
Not if he's packing a Sol Ring it won't. Or moxen for that matter.
shih-jen hsu
SCN User (bd...@scn.org) wrote:
: Celestial Dawn + Grinning Totem = actually cast whatever the totem pulls.
Actually, all your lands are white producing. And "bleach" only affects *your*
cards, so whatever totem pulls is still its original color and you probably
wont be able to cast it (hehe, unless he is using bleach :)
Jen
The Nightfly
sj...@cs.sunysb.edu (shih-jen hsu) wrote:
> Bill Goldman (gol...@tesuque.cs.sandia.gov) wrote:
>
> : Treacherous Dawn B Quick
> : Celestial Hack U Quick
> : Celestial Dog G Quick
> : Burning Dawn R Quick
>
> I believe that! WOTC wants to be so sure that C.Dawn is "controlled" that
> they will print 4 other cards to handle it, cards that are otherwise useless.
> I guess you didn't get the sheet with "Zuran Curse", an enchantment that
> does 5 pts during each player's upkeep if they control a zuran orb.
>
> Please, at least try to make phony cards sound better!
Nightfly's Law of R.G.T-C.M.S: There is no post so obviously ironic that
same moron won't take it seriously.
Corollary: There is no post so obviously ironic that some moron won't
assume it was meant to be taken seriously. :)
And for the record, there is no card that sounds better than Celestial Dog. :)
***
"Dean Smith is God." -- The Chronicle, Dook student newspaper
Feb 4, 1994 Feb 3, 1995 Feb 1, 1996
Trevor Barrie
grif...@crl.com (Dave Griffith) wrote:
>>But whoever plays it will play with tons of counterspells and will be
>>expecting those things coming it's way.
>Tons of counterspells they won't be able to cast very effectively until
>the Dawn comes.
Assuming that they're relying on Celestial Dawn as their only means of
casting non-white spells, yes. This would probably be a mistake;
nevertheless, the point remains that Dawn makes it a lot easier to run a
primarily-white rainbow deck.
>As for the various new Tutor spells, expect Millstones or (better) Helms
>to become quite popular come Oct. 8.
Why, because you can fetch them with the white one? The new Tutors are all
Instants, just like Lim-Dul's Vault; when timed properly, there's no way for
the opponent to stop you from drawing the card you want.
Eric Howell
While this card is quite cool, "overpowered" it is not. Can you say Hack!
(I'm not saying you cant, its just an expression... nevermind) Or better yet
Slight! Plus blue's got a new dual purpose slight/hack. If i'm reading
Celestial Dawn incorrectly please tell me, but it seems any one of these
spells would crush Captain Dawn in a similar way as giving a Libray of
Leng to Necro Boy.
Unseen Magus
Though I can't say your reading it wrong (Mirage has to become AVAILABLE
first for many of us to actually READ THE CARD), from what I understand,
Hack and Sleight won't be doing much (except for making your "islands"
produce W.
Unseen Magus
--
"Watching grass grow is much more fun than this place, but SMOKING it
is even better!"
JAXHAMMER7
In article <52a61j$v...@shrew.seascape.com>, wwoo...@surf.seascape.com
(Wayne Woodman) writes:
>
>: Actually, it does:
>: 1. "All non-land cards you own that are not in play are white"
>: 2. "All non-land permanents you control are white"
>: 3. "All lands you control are plains"
>: 4. "All colored mana symbols in all COSTS on all of these cards
are W"
>
>
A sleigh will not have much effect on Celestial Dawn. Sleighing it to
blue will give you a hand full of blue spells that have casting costs of
white mana symbols. A hack will mess up the Dawn, however, because you
will have a hand full of white spells with white mana symbols in their
casting costs and all your land will be islands that produce blue mana.
The mana symbols on lands are after the : and are effects, not costs, and
they won't be changed by the Dawn.
Craig Sunada
I can't wait for someone to play a Celestial Dawn so I can Hack/Mind Bend
it to change the plains to mountains. A handful and library full of cards
that they can't play. Whoopee!
Craig
Trevor Barrie
jaxha...@aol.com (JAXHAMMER7) wrote:
>A sleigh will not have much effect on Celestial Dawn. Sleighing it to
>blue will give you a hand full of blue spells that have casting costs of
>white mana symbols. A hack will mess up the Dawn, however, because you
>will have a hand full of white spells with white mana symbols in their
>casting costs and all your land will be islands that produce blue mana.
>The mana symbols on lands are after the : and are effects, not costs, and
>they won't be changed by the Dawn.
Actually, Celestial Dawn has been errataed (see the October 3 rulings) so
that it changes all mana symbols, not just those symbols in costs. So
neither Sleight nor Hack will do much of anything to the Dawn; the latter
will cause the player to have, say, mountains which produce W. (Sleight is
actually well-used _with_ the Dawn, to enable you to dodge Anarchies, Glooms
and the likes.)
Kevin Seachrist
Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> Actually, Celestial Dawn has been errataed (see the October 3 rulings) so
> that it changes all mana symbols, not just those symbols in costs. So
> neither Sleight nor Hack will do much of anything to the Dawn; the latter
> will cause the player to have, say, mountains which produce W. (Sleight is
> actually well-used _with_ the Dawn, to enable you to dodge Anarchies, Glooms
> and the likes.)
The card doesn't mention that lands produce W, it says they become
Plains, unless the errata REALLY did a number on the wording. If not,
then Magical Hack will hose Celestial Dawn, as will the new Mirage
Hack/Sleight (My guess is that the card was added specifically as a foil
to CD). If CD were phrased that all lands produce W instead of becoming
plains, it would be on the express to Banville inside of a month.
As is, the ability comes at quite a risk (i.e. is your deck prepared to
function WITHOUT CD? With a hacked CD?)
Cheers,
Kevin
Jim Hamp
Certainly all lands become plains, but all mana symbols becomne W.
So if you hack CD to say, islands, you will have islands that say "Add W
to your mana pool". So a hack won't hurt you.
Mark Lathem
Jim Hamp <jkh...@deimos.frii.com> wrote:
>> The card doesn't mention that lands produce W, it says they become
>> Plains, unless the errata REALLY did a number on the wording. If not,
>> then Magical Hack will hose Celestial Dawn, as will the new Mirage
>> Hack/Sleight (My guess is that the card was added specifically as a foil
>> to CD). If CD were phrased that all lands produce W instead of becoming
>> plains, it would be on the express to Banville inside of a month.
>>
>> As is, the ability comes at quite a risk (i.e. is your deck prepared to
>> function WITHOUT CD? With a hacked CD?)
>>
>Certainly all lands become plains, but all mana symbols becomne W.
>So if you hack CD to say, islands, you will have islands that say "Add W
>to your mana pool". So a hack won't hurt you.
Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. If your lands become islands,
then they produce U.
Think about it...if that's the way things worked then cards like Blood
Moon would be a pretty useless, wouldn't they?
--
Mark Lathem
http://www.atlcom.net/~drlathem/pipes
Trevor Barrie
Kevin Seachrist <sea...@concentric.net> wrote:
>> Actually, Celestial Dawn has been errataed (see the October 3 rulings) so
>> that it changes all mana symbols, not just those symbols in costs.
>The card doesn't mention that lands produce W, it says they become
>Plains, unless the errata REALLY did a number on the wording.
The errata is exactly what I just said. So, they become Plains, _and_ the
mana symbol in their ability description changes to "W". Mucking with the
first part is largely irrelevant due to the second.
>If CD were phrased that all lands produce W instead of becoming
>plains, it would be on the express to Banville inside of a month.
Either way, it's only "pretty good". Maybe "pretty darn good".:) But not
banworthy.
>As is, the ability comes at quite a risk (i.e. is your deck prepared to
>function WITHOUT CD? With a hacked CD?)
It still comes at quite a risk: Anarchy, Flashfires, Gloom...
Jasper Janssen
mla...@telis.org (Mark Lathem) wrote:
>Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. If your lands become islands,
It does work that way.
>then they produce U.
You have full fledged Islands that produce U. Okay. Now another part
of CD kicks in, Making the mana symbol on the islands W! Thus, you
have islands which produce W.
>Think about it...if that's the way things worked then cards like Blood
>Moon would be a pretty useless, wouldn't they?
Sure. But you NEVER play a Blood moon along with a CD, do you?
Bye,
Jasper.
******************************************************************
*** Anything I say should be taken with a few pounds of salt, ***
*** I'm way too tired right now to make sense. ***
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