Juzam Djinn Deck! - how to stop?
Shaper
>> Swords to Plowshares
>> Maze of Ith
>> Paralyze
>> Unsummon (usually, one Dark rituals or uses a Black Lotus for the Djinn)
>> Control Magic
>> Moat
>> CoP: Black
>> Forcefield
>> Any regenerating blocker.
>
>Umm without a doubt City in a Bottle is the worst card a djinn deck can
>run into. Kills all djinns, efreets, etc in play, and prevents any
>more from coming out.
Except for mahomotis, serendib efreets, mijaes (I think that's the one
sill in print...), bottlebeasts (bottle of suleiman), ....
It does take care of the juzams and ernhams quite nicely, though!
MB
Wanna see me blow bubbles with my spit?
Stephen Lil IV
: zor...@Hoover.Stanford.EDU wrote:
:
: : Spirit link is especially troublesome against a
:
: : for counters. The other big disadvantage of djinns especially serendibs and
: : juzama is that if you get down to far there it can get really hard to win.
:
: As a dedicated Juzam/Serendib player, I thought I should add that Spirit
: Link is one card that should be in every Djinn/Efreet deck. The advantage
: of speed that efreets and djinns provide becomes doubly so if you could use
: them to establish early life-dominance: it's one thing to be looking at a
: Juzam Djinn on the first turn, but it's another story altogether to be
: looking at a Spirit Linked Juzam Djinn on turn 2, and blocking it with a
: Tundra Wolves. So you don't take 5, but your opponent is suddenly at 24.
:
: But in general, I agree completely -- if you're afraid of attacking, you
: should stay away from Djinns and Efreets and go with Serra Angels and
: Zephyr Falcons. Also, it is ESSENTIAL that you get them out early, when
: you have life to support them. But this is where the Spirit Link comes
: in....
:
: In order of annoyance-value, the cards that screw up a Djinn deck are:
:
: Spirit Link
: Swords to Plowshares
: Maze of Ith
: Paralyze
: Unsummon (usually, one Dark rituals or uses a Black Lotus for the Djinn)
: Control Magic
: Moat
: CoP: Black
: Forcefield
: Any regenerating blocker.
And a few other cards:
Whirling Dervish
White Knight
Sorceress Queen
Royal Assassin (Yes, they're out there still)
And a few common combos I've seen regularly in tourneys for anti-djinn work:
Meekstone + Icy Manipulator/Kismet
Kird Ape + Giant Growth
Elvish Archers + Lightning Bolt/Giant Growth
:
:
: --
: The truth is you're the weak. And I'm Robert S. Hahn
: the tyranny of evil men. But I'm trying. ha...@panix.com
: I'm trying real hard to be a shepherd. rsh...@is.nyu.edu
: - Jules, _Pulp Fiction_
- Steve - sl7...@u.cc.utah.edu
David Urbanek
[snip]
: :
: : Spirit Link
: : Swords to Plowshares
: : Maze of Ith
: : Paralyze
: : Unsummon (usually, one Dark rituals or uses a Black Lotus for the Djinn)
: : Control Magic
: : Moat
: : CoP: Black
: : Forcefield
: : Any regenerating blocker.
: And a few other cards:
: Whirling Dervish
: White Knight
: Sorceress Queen
: Royal Assassin (Yes, they're out there still)
: And a few common combos I've seen regularly in tourneys for anti-djinn work:
: Meekstone + Icy Manipulator/Kismet
: Kird Ape + Giant Growth
: Elvish Archers + Lightning Bolt/Giant Growth
Also try merseine, its got ads & disads vs paralyze, but when your
opponent uses discardable mana makers and needs specific colors this can
be nasty. You'll keep his creature off your back and make him spend
specific colored mana to untap his creature.
--
@==&----------
David Urbanek
urb...@peruvian.cs.utah.edu
David....@m.cc.utah.edu
Robert Hahn
: Also try merseine, its got ads & disads vs paralyze, but when your
: opponent uses discardable mana makers and needs specific colors this can
: be nasty. You'll keep his creature off your back and make him spend
: specific colored mana to untap his creature.
The problem is that Merseine is 2UU -- by the time you get enough mana for
it, that first turn Juzam has probably killed you. Otherwise, a good
anti-Djinn card, to be sure.
-rsh
Derfty
chance against white weenies......
Stephen Lil IV
Merseine is too slow, not to mention you can cast Control Magic for 2UU, so
why use Merseine? Its advantages over Control Magic is neglibible.
- Steve - sl7...@u.cc.utah.edu
Stephen Lil IV
: Brian Range (brian...@tamu.edu) wrote:
: : In article <3ku3fp$7...@panix.com>, ha...@panix.com (Robert Hahn) says:
:
: : You forgot one bane of Djinn decks... Meekstone!! RV card we can all
: : afford that for one man let's a player sit back and laugh while
: : their opponent takes one damage per turn from their serendib or Juzam.
:
: True, I did forget that annoying little card, didn't I? IMHO, only a
: complete fool would play with Djinns and Efreets without Disenchants or at
: least Shatters. The downside of relying on meekstone is that should it not
: come up or be destroyed, your creatures most likely are no match for a
: Juzam Djinn or a Serendib Efreet.
:
: Also, most walls are annoying, but particular the Wall of Ice, Wall of
: Shadow, Wall of Stone, etc. Thank god few tournament decks have walls at
: all....
:
: : I must mention the one thing that is the biggest problem with Djinn decks.
: : Too predictable... Any good player going into a tournament should be
: : ready for Juzams and white weenies or else they are just not smart...
: : I'm not saying Juzam is useless, it's a great way to deal a lot of damage
: : quickly, but one should not put all their faith in damage dealing with
: : a few big critters... jus my 2 cents on the Juzam...
:
: I agree completely. One tournament I went to, I ran up against another
: Juzam deck. Our Juzams basically cancelled each other out. Then it was a
: matter of whose deck was better tuned, who had the better primary/secondary
: suite. I had the advantage that day, but who knows the next time around?
:
: I'm not sure I know what a "Djinn deck" is really. It's a big-critter
: deck, for sure, but most of those have primary/secondary suites that
: compliment them somewhat. My flavor of the month is card denial, using
: Spectres and Balance (which works well with Djinns -- "Okay, you have 3
: Llanowars, 2 Goblin Balloon Brigades, and a Giant Spider... I have a
: Juzam... Let's balance, and see where we are.), but I've seen permission,
: land-destruction, direct damage, etc.
:
: To be perfectly honest, I have my Djinns just because it's nice to bring
: them out on turn 1 (and there are just so many ways with moxen, rituals,
: sol ring, lotus, etc.). Most good tournament decks could handle them,
: unless they got screwed on the draw (in which case, they die very quickly),
: but often enough, the first or second-turn Juzam takes up all of their
: attention that you could develop the rest of your deadly deck.
:
: My goal is to distract them with the Djinn long enough (and hopefully be
: able to spirit link the Djinn so as to gain 10-15 life) to bring out the
: Serra Angels and the Racks/Disrupting Sceptres, etc. In that, they perform
: supremely well.
At last an intelligent use for the Juzam Djinn. I absolutely agree that it's
best used to force your opponent to scramble to kill it.
: -rsh
:
: --
: The truth is you're the weak. And I'm Robert S. Hahn
: the tyranny of evil men. But I'm trying. ha...@panix.com
: I'm trying real hard to be a shepherd. rsh...@is.nyu.edu
: - Jules, _Pulp Fiction_
- Steve - sl7...@u.cc.utah.edu
s58...@dutiws.twi.tudelft.nl
: opponent uses discardable mana makers and needs specific colors this can
: be nasty. You'll keep his creature off your back and make him spend
: specific colored mana to untap his creature.
Put Spirit Link on it. Costs only one white mana so you can easily
play this one in your first turn. As an extra bonus you get one life
during each of his upkeeps and he suffers one damage from his useless
Djinn. For those who have never seen Spirit Link: it's a Legend
uncommon, casting cost one white mana: [enchant creature] For
every point of damage target creature does you gain one life.
Derk
Garry Handelman
: s58...@dutiws.twi.tudelft.nl wrote:
: : Put Spirit Link on it. Costs only one white mana so you can easily
: : play this one in your first turn. As an extra bonus you get one life
: : during each of his upkeeps and he suffers one damage from his useless
: : Djinn. For those who have never seen Spirit Link: it's a Legend
: : uncommon, casting cost one white mana: [enchant creature] For
: : every point of damage target creature does you gain one life.
: In all seriousness, a Juzam Djinn deck that plays without Disenchant is
: just asking to be killed. Spirit Link, Control Magic, Meekstone... these
: are just too dangerous to not have Disenchants in a deck with Juzams.
Spirit link is _not_ the bane of Djinn decks, nor do they need it. With a
strong card denial suit, which is what every Djinn deck wants to go with
it's djinns, it can be getting through with some of it's Djinns despite
a white/blue card per card defense. And you
don't need Disenchant to kill control magics, though they don't hurt, you
need Control magics of your own.
Meekstone, Abyss (not Kismet and not Icy) and City of Brass are
what a Djinn deck needs Disenchants for. And they are the ways to stop a
Djinn deck, not StP, or SpL. Swords to Plowshares, Icy MAnipulator and
Spirit Link are _all_ one card to kill one Djinn, with card denial the
Djinn deck will get more Djinns than you have Djinn stoppers and kill
you, and generally, if you expect to kill the Djinn deck ever, he will be
able to outrace your single card Djinn stoppers without resorting to card
denial. Oh yeah, Moat works all right to. King Suleimein is as pitiful as
Karma, he's one card to kill avg. 1.75 djinns, he costs 2 mana, and he
doesn't
kill any djinns the turn he comes out (the main drawback). And every djinn
deck has, as I
said, control magics, lightning is not necessarry. Anyway, Djinn decks need
some Trainquilities,
and four disenchants/white multilands in their _sideboard_. In the early
rounds of a tournament, and against many pitiful attempts to stop Djinn
decks like SpL, disenchants and white mana just get in the way, and in the
later
rounds disenchants and tranqs are not totally necessarry (it is entirely
possible, I've done it many times, to speed right through even the best
tournament lock decks, with their lock working in partial or in
full, though I don't want to rely on it), but they certainly
help. Also, every Djinn deck needs Mana Birds (white mana _and_ abyss
food). Taking all of this into account, this is the newer version of my
Djinn deck I just made which is more successful in evading lock decks.
Black
Four Juzam Djinn, Four Hymn to Toe Rach, Four Hypnotic Spectre,
Four Dark Ritual, Two Sorceress Queen, Mind Twist, Demonic Tutor.
Blue
Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Four Control Magic, Four Serendib Efreet.
Green
Four Mana Birds, Four Ernham Djinn, Regrowth.
Artifacts
Black Lotus, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Saphire, Mox Jet, Sol Ring.
Land
Four Underground Sea, Four Tropical Island, Four Bayou, Two
Cities of Brass, Library of Alexandria.
Sideboard
Scrubland, Four Disnechants, Trainquility, Four Blue Elemental
Blasts, Two Su-Chi, Steal Artifact, Two Concordant Crossroads.
Um.... was there anyone's comments whom I forgot to comment on?
Oh yeah!, white weenies. A white knight is one card to stop one _Juzam_
djinn, and only juzams, and you aren't gonna bring it out on your first
turn. Forgive me for not trembling. White weeny decks have never stopped
_any_ serious tournament strategy, arty creatureless decks eat them alive
(cowardly little worms with abysses and balances and stasi etc), because
white weeny decks are _slow_. Juzam decks are barely fast enough to be
doable, and white weeny doesn't have even half their speed.
All hail the tucans of the black dawn, evil mana birds.
-Gha...@Uclink.Berkeley.Edu
Jason Chayes
> In all seriousness, a Juzam Djinn deck that plays without Disenchant is
> just asking to be killed. Spirit Link, Control Magic, Meekstone... these
> are just too dangerous to not have Disenchants in a deck with Juzams.
Hrm...I've been watching this thread for some time now and I feel its
time to offer my 2 cents.
I used to play disenchants in my Juzam deck but have recently removed
them. The problem I've had is that if you draw one or two of them on your
opening hand, they work against the only real advantage of the Juzam Deck,
speed. Though I think they are great cards, Disenchants tended to clutter
my deck. Also, disenchants are exclusively responsive, that is, you need
to wait until something's done to use them. This, imo, goes against the
aggressive posture all Djinn players should adopt.
The best alternative I could find was using boomerangs. Since most
Djinn decks I've seen use blue anyway, they shouldn't be too hard to add
in. They not only remove pesky things like meekstone, spirit link and
control magic (by boomeranging the djinn and not the enchantment) but they
also can be used to save a djinn from direct damage that disenchants
can't. Also, they move djinn blockers out of the way for at least a round.
There is almost always something you can boomerang to your advantage,
while disenchant isnt quite so versatile. Anyway, they have seemed to
me a better way to go.
Jason
Best when cool
: Juzam Djinn on the first turn, but it's another story altogether to be
: looking at a Spirit Linked Juzam Djinn on turn 2, and blocking it with a
: Tundra Wolves. So you don't take 5, but your opponent is suddenly at 24.
You mean 25, right?! Or.. where do you lose the life?
-- Sonny
Robert Hahn
: Spirit link is _not_ the bane of Djinn decks, nor do they need it. With a
Really? So what do you do when the opponent links your Djinn, effectively
gaining a life every turn?
: Meekstone, Abyss (not Kismet and not Icy) and City of Brass are
: what a Djinn deck needs Disenchants for. And they are the ways to stop a
Really? Last I checked, you needed a Sinkhole, Stone Rain, Strip Mine, Ice
Storm, or some such thing to take care of the city of Brass.
And quite honestly, I would _much_ rather my opponent get out a Meekstone
than a Spirit Link on my Djinn. At least he's not gaining at my expense.
: Black
: Four Juzam Djinn, Four Hymn to Toe Rach, Four Hypnotic Spectre,
: Four Dark Ritual, Two Sorceress Queen, Mind Twist, Demonic Tutor.
You only have 9 denial cards, out of which most tourney decks could handle
4 (Bolt-bait, etc.), and 4 take care of 2 cards & requires 2 black mana.
Not a winning combination, in my book.
: Blue
: Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Four Control Magic, Four Serendib Efreet.
Those Control Magics would be useful against a creatureless/energy deck.
: Green
: Four Mana Birds, Four Ernham Djinn, Regrowth.
: Artifacts
: Black Lotus, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Saphire, Mox Jet, Sol Ring.
: Land
: Four Underground Sea, Four Tropical Island, Four Bayou, Two
: Cities of Brass, Library of Alexandria.
I'm amazed that you don't get mana-screwed on a regular basis. I count
only 18 continuous color-mana sources that can't be terrored/bolted/etc.
(i.e., birds). I run into problems sometimes with 24 continuous
sources....
Question: How do you defend against another Juzam deck, what with all the
Ernham Djinn's you have giving their Djinn's forestwalk, etc?
do...@netcom.com
: Robert Hahn (ha...@panix.com) wrote:
Juzam Djinn does 1 damage to controller during their upkeep. 20 from
turn 1, -1 from upkeep, +5 from Tundra Wolf mutilation.
: -- Sonny
Garry Handelman
: Garry Handelman (gha...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: : Spirit link is _not_ the bane of Djinn decks, nor do they need it. With a
: Really? So what do you do when the opponent links your Djinn, effectively
: gaining a life every turn?
Make another Djinn (and another, and another) and hit him with them. And
effectively nothing, he _gains_ one life a turn, don't use unneeded adverbs.
: : Meekstone, Abyss (not Kismet and not Icy) and City of Brass are
: : what a Djinn deck needs Disenchants for. And they are the ways to stop a
: Really? Last I checked, you needed a Sinkhole, Stone Rain, Strip Mine, Ice
: Storm, or some such thing to take care of the city of Brass.
Sorry, that should have been City in a Bottle.
: And quite honestly, I would _much_ rather my opponent get out a Meekstone
: than a Spirit Link on my Djinn. At least he's not gaining at my expense.
No, because a meekstone "kills" all my Djinns, not just one.
: : Black
: : Four Juzam Djinn, Four Hymn to Toe Rach, Four Hypnotic Spectre,
: : Four Dark Ritual, Two Sorceress Queen, Mind Twist, Demonic Tutor.
: You only have 9 denial cards, out of which most tourney decks could handle
: 4 (Bolt-bait, etc.), and 4 take care of 2 cards & requires 2 black mana.
: Not a winning combination, in my book.
Most tourney decks can handle anything, that doesn't necessarilly mean
they will, and if you can get a better deal than Hymn to Toe Rach for
card denial _please_ tell me. Also, every time they handle a hypno
they're using up a card which might have killed a djinn (or me).
: : Blue
: : Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Four Control Magic, Four Serendib Efreet.
: Those Control Magics would be useful against a creatureless/energy deck.
Sideboard, dolt. Blue Elemental Blasts and Su-Chi for the Sorceress
Queens (or maybe Clockworks? Vampires? I haven't descided yet?), which
are also useless against Energy decks. Maybe reverberation, but I hate
having to save 2BB.
: : Green
: : Four Mana Birds, Four Ernham Djinn, Regrowth.
: : Artifacts
: : Black Lotus, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Saphire, Mox Jet, Sol Ring.
: : Land
: : Four Underground Sea, Four Tropical Island, Four Bayou, Two
: : Cities of Brass, Library of Alexandria.
: I'm amazed that you don't get mana-screwed on a regular basis. I count
: only 18 continuous color-mana sources that can't be terrored/bolted/etc.
: (i.e., birds). I run into problems sometimes with 24 continuous
: sources....
Um, yeah, but if they terror/bolt my birds I still have enough mana to do
my stuff. And who packs terror anymore?
: Question: How do you defend against another Juzam deck, what with all the
: Ernham Djinn's you have giving their Djinn's forestwalk, etc?
I don't defend against them, I try to out Juzam them, and I pack control
magic while many Juzam decks don't, many Juzam decks pack Land
destruction instead of card denial, which is (face it) better, I'm
confident at my superior Juzam djinning ability.
Also, someone said that Disenchants just get in the way of Juzam
decks doing their thing. This is, for the most part, true, however,
against annoying abyss based lock decks it is not, and I don't like
boomerang myself because I don't much care about Spirit Link, but I'll
try it out with Boomerangs instead. In any case, Disenchant is sideboard
for the Juzam deck, at best.
Joshua Bluestein
and +1 fro caster-mutilation. It's not limited to combat damage.
Unless you consider the Spirit Link as not being cast until Turn
2...which would then justify having 24.
Josh
wa...@ftp.com
Stephen Lil IV
:
: : : Put Spirit Link on it. Costs only one white mana so you can easily
: : : play this one in your first turn. As an extra bonus you get one life
: : : during each of his upkeeps and he suffers one damage from his useless
: : : Djinn. For those who have never seen Spirit Link: it's a Legend
: : : uncommon, casting cost one white mana: [enchant creature] For
: : : every point of damage target creature does you gain one life.
:
: : just asking to be killed. Spirit Link, Control Magic, Meekstone... these
: : are just too dangerous to not have Disenchants in a deck with Juzams.
: Spirit link is _not_ the bane of Djinn decks, nor do they need it. With a
: a white/blue card per card defense. And you
: don't need Disenchant to kill control magics, though they don't hurt, you
: need Control magics of your own.
: what a Djinn deck needs Disenchants for. And they are the ways to stop a
I originally substituted in Spirit Link in my blue/white/green/artifact deck
for the Swords to Plowshares as creature defense, in an effort to make my
deck better on the deck-matchup front (against creatureless decks). At the
same time, I took out half of my WoGs and replaced them with Balances (for
the same reason). To my surprise, this improved the deck's performance
against decks with or without creatures. I'd SpL my Serra Angel against
a weenie horde (with a Maze of Ith out to guard against surprises like a
Giant Growth or Blood Lust) and gain 8 life a turn, or I just cast Balance.
Or I'd get a SpL on my Serra Angel and cast Balance against a djinn deck
(you take 5 damage a turn and I'll take 1 damage a turn), if you also have
an Icy or MoI out, it's that much more improbable for her to recover.
: Djinn deck will get more Djinns than you have Djinn stoppers and kill
: you, and generally, if you expect to kill the Djinn deck ever, he will be
: able to outrace your single card Djinn stoppers without resorting to card
: denial. Oh yeah, Moat works all right to. King Suleimein is as pitiful as
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Actually, I had more luck killing djinn decks with Moat than with Meekstone,
since djinn decks don't use creature enhancement spells and my Serra Angel
eats Serendib Efreets and Hypnotic Specters for lunch. The Moat is also
invaluable against just about any kind of weenie horde, but I consider the
Moat is best suited to the sideboard, of course.
: Karma, he's one card to kill avg. 1.75 djinns, he costs 2 mana, and he
: doesn't
: kill any djinns the turn he comes out (the main drawback). And every djinn
: deck has, as I
: said, control magics, lightning is not necessarry. Anyway, Djinn decks need
: some Trainquilities,
: and four disenchants/white multilands in their _sideboard_. In the early
: rounds of a tournament, and against many pitiful attempts to stop Djinn
: decks like SpL, disenchants and white mana just get in the way, and in the
: later
: rounds disenchants and tranqs are not totally necessarry (it is entirely
: possible, I've done it many times, to speed right through even the best
: tournament lock decks, with their lock working in partial or in
: full, though I don't want to rely on it), but they certainly
Oh, absolutely possible. When a djinn deck gets a first-turn djinn out it
is very scary for its opponent. I have done is many times with my own
djinn decks. The problem with djinn decks is you don't really get those
killer draws often enough, and third/fourth turn djinns are just not
as scary. Even if you do get a first-turn djinn out, you really aren't
guaranteed anything (SpL, StP, Balance, MoI, Paralyze and many other
cards can deal with it). Another problem with djinn decks is that it's
easy to lock (the strategy is limited AND you have no space for defense).
Much like dedicated card-denial decks, when a djinn deck wins, it wins big,
but it's very risky, and the odds are not good. It's also very hard for
a djinn deck to recover from a disadvantage at any point of the game.
: help. Also, every Djinn deck needs Mana Birds (white mana _and_ abyss
: food). Taking all of this into account, this is the newer version of my
: Djinn deck I just made which is more successful in evading lock decks.
:
: Black
: Four Juzam Djinn, Four Hymn to Toe Rach, Four Hypnotic Spectre,
: Four Dark Ritual, Two Sorceress Queen, Mind Twist, Demonic Tutor.
:
: Blue
: Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Four Control Magic, Four Serendib Efreet.
:
: Green
: Four Mana Birds, Four Ernham Djinn, Regrowth.
:
: Artifacts
: Black Lotus, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Saphire, Mox Jet, Sol Ring.
:
: Land
: Four Underground Sea, Four Tropical Island, Four Bayou, Two
: Cities of Brass, Library of Alexandria.
:
: Sideboard
: Scrubland, Four Disnechants, Trainquility, Four Blue Elemental
: Blasts, Two Su-Chi, Steal Artifact, Two Concordant Crossroads.
Looks much better than the previous version with Clones. An awesome anti-
lock card you may want to add to your sideboard is Energy Flux, possibly
replacing the two Su-Chis.
: Um.... was there anyone's comments whom I forgot to comment on?
: Oh yeah!, white weenies. A white knight is one card to stop one _Juzam_
: djinn, and only juzams, and you aren't gonna bring it out on your first
: turn. Forgive me for not trembling. White weeny decks have never stopped
: _any_ serious tournament strategy, arty creatureless decks eat them alive
: (cowardly little worms with abysses and balances and stasi etc), because
: white weeny decks are _slow_. Juzam decks are barely fast enough to be
: doable, and white weeny doesn't have even half their speed.
Also, a white weenie horde really needs to draw a Crusade or an Angelic Voices
early on. If it doesn't, it's usually toast against a fast deck. The real
problem is having many Crusades and Angelic Voices in the deck is a very
very risky proposition as this takes a lot of deck space, making the deck
even riskier (and slower) than a djinn deck. Also, a single Gloom will
effectively screw the duel for you.
:
: All hail the tucans of the black dawn, evil mana birds.
: -Gha...@Uclink.Berkeley.Edu
- Steve - sl7...@u.cc.utah.edu
Peter M White
gha...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Garry Handelman) writes:
> Um.... was there anyone's comments whom I forgot to comment on?
>Oh yeah!, white weenies. A white knight is one card to stop one _Juzam_
>djinn, and only juzams, and you aren't gonna bring it out on your first
>turn. Forgive me for not trembling. White weeny decks have never stopped
>_any_ serious tournament strategy, arty creatureless decks eat them alive
>(cowardly little worms with abysses and balances and stasi etc), because
>white weeny decks are _slow_. Juzam decks are barely fast enough to be
>doable, and white weeny doesn't have even half their speed.
I am not so sure that a "slow" White weenie deck can't be easily
sideboarded to stop your Djinn deck cold. How about if you face
4 each of Sword to Plowshare, Spirit Link, Abu Jafar, White Knight?
That is a lot of Djinn stopping power, mostly for only one White
mana, leaving mana free to develop an offense. Plus, they are
cheap enough to get down before you have any certainty of denying
them away. The Abu's may or may not be useful against other decks.
They would be useful for slowing either another weenie or any big
creature deck, or if you are planning on playing Jihad.
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Sam Pullara
I am not so sure that a "slow" White weenie deck can't be easily
sideboarded to stop your Djinn deck cold. How about if you face
4 each of Sword to Plowshare, Spirit Link, Abu Jafar, White Knight?
That is a lot of Djinn stopping power, mostly for only one White
mana, leaving mana free to develop an offense. Plus, they are
cheap enough to get down before you have any certainty of denying
them away. The Abu's may or may not be useful against other decks.
They would be useful for slowing either another weenie or any big
creature deck, or if you are planning on playing Jihad.
Most Djinn decks concentrate on the Juzam so have a high percentage of
black. I usually sideboard 4 Gloom and a couple Sleights to take care of
any white deck.
--
Samuel J. Pullara | High Energy Particle Physics /
Northwestern University | Astrophysics Graduate Student
ave...@merle.acns.nwu.edu | "Everything I say is completely
Finger for PGP public key | hypothetical, hypothetically."
Garry Handelman
: gha...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Garry Handelman) writes:
: > Um.... was there anyone's comments whom I forgot to comment on?
: >Oh yeah!, white weenies. A white knight is one card to stop one _Juzam_
: >djinn, and only juzams, and you aren't gonna bring it out on your first
: >turn. Forgive me for not trembling. White weeny decks have never stopped
: >_any_ serious tournament strategy, arty creatureless decks eat them alive
: >(cowardly little worms with abysses and balances and stasi etc), because
: >white weeny decks are _slow_. Juzam decks are barely fast enough to be
: >doable, and white weeny doesn't have even half their speed.
: I am not so sure that a "slow" White weenie deck can't be easily
: sideboarded to stop your Djinn deck cold. How about if you face
: 4 each of Sword to Plowshare, Spirit Link, Abu Jafar, White Knight?
: That is a lot of Djinn stopping power, mostly for only one White
: mana, leaving mana free to develop an offense. Plus, they are
: cheap enough to get down before you have any certainty of denying
: them away. The Abu's may or may not be useful against other decks.
: They would be useful for slowing either another weenie or any big
: creature deck, or if you are planning on playing Jihad.
Sigh, that will indeed kill most or all of my djinns, however, it won't
play enough cards that my card denial won't bite, and I _will_ get ahead
later if he concentrates on that particular defense tactic. I have
explained this again and again and again and I have no intention of
repeating my entire argument, read the earlier posts.
-Gha...@UClink.Berkeley.Edu
Garry Handelman
Yeah, SpL is better than StP, and Balance is better than wrath of god, no
surprise.
: : Djinn deck will get more Djinns than you have Djinn stoppers and kill
: : you, and generally, if you expect to kill the Djinn deck ever, he will be
: : able to outrace your single card Djinn stoppers without resorting to card
: : denial. Oh yeah, Moat works all right to. King Suleimein is as pitiful as
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Actually, I had more luck killing djinn decks with Moat than with Meekstone,
: since djinn decks don't use creature enhancement spells and my Serra Angel
: eats Serendib Efreets and Hypnotic Specters for lunch. The Moat is also
: invaluable against just about any kind of weenie horde, but I consider the
: Moat is best suited to the sideboard, of course.
Naturally, and yes, the one or two times I've been moated have been more
successful than the many times I've been meeked, but I see more
meekstones than moats (revised rare versus legends rare it's not surprising).
: : Karma, he's one card to kill avg. 1.75 djinns, he costs 2 mana, and he
: : doesn't
: : kill any djinns the turn he comes out (the main drawback). And every djinn
: : deck has, as I
: : said, control magics, lightning is not necessarry. Anyway, Djinn decks need
: : some Trainquilities,
: : and four disenchants/white multilands in their _sideboard_. In the early
: : rounds of a tournament, and against many pitiful attempts to stop Djinn
: : decks like SpL, disenchants and white mana just get in the way, and in the
: : later
: : rounds disenchants and tranqs are not totally necessarry (it is entirely
: : possible, I've done it many times, to speed right through even the best
: : tournament lock decks, with their lock working in partial or in
: : full, though I don't want to rely on it), but they certainly
: Oh, absolutely possible. When a djinn deck gets a first-turn djinn out it
: is very scary for its opponent. I have done is many times with my own
: djinn decks. The problem with djinn decks is you don't really get those
: killer draws often enough, and third/fourth turn djinns are just not
: as scary. Even if you do get a first-turn djinn out, you really aren't
: guaranteed anything (SpL, StP, Balance, MoI, Paralyze and many other
: cards can deal with it). Another problem with djinn decks is that it's
: easy to lock (the strategy is limited AND you have no space for defense).
: Much like dedicated card-denial decks, when a djinn deck wins, it wins big,
: but it's very risky, and the odds are not good. It's also very hard for
: a djinn deck to recover from a disadvantage at any point of the game.
That's not my experience, my deck tends to win by the skin of it's teeth,
barely killing the nasty lock deck in time, but then I playt weird opponents.
: : help. Also, every Djinn deck needs Mana Birds (white mana _and_ abyss
Also, all of your creatures tend to get lightning bolted and you sit
their with four crusades and no creatures to pump.
: :
: : All hail the tucans of the black dawn, evil mana birds.
: : -Gha...@Uclink.Berkeley.Edu
: - Steve - sl7...@u.cc.utah.edu
-Ghandel
Robert Kline
(Garry Handelman) wrote:
> : Much like dedicated card-denial decks, when a djinn deck wins, it wins big,
> : but it's very risky, and the odds are not good. It's also very hard for
> : a djinn deck to recover from a disadvantage at any point of the game.
> That's not my experience, my deck tends to win by the skin of it's teeth,
> barely killing the nasty lock deck in time, but then I playt weird opponents.
The same thing happens with my Juzam/card-denial deck. It is very rare if
I have more than 10 life and the end of a game one way or the other, but I
haven't tried out my new spirit links yet. :)
Bob
jspa...@gac.edu
Thomas....@dartmouth.edu (Thomas F. Guevin) writes:
>ha...@panix.com (Robert Hahn) writes:
>
>> In order of annoyance-value, the cards that screw up a Djinn deck are:
>>
>> Swords to Plowshares
>> Maze of Ith
>> Paralyze
>> Unsummon (usually, one Dark rituals or uses a Black Lotus for the
Djinn)
>> Control Magic
>> Moat
>> CoP: Black
>> Forcefield
>> Any regenerating blocker.
>
>run into. Kills all djinns, efreets, etc in play, and prevents any
>more from coming out.
>
Actually, right below Spirit Link, I'd put Gaseous Form. It's underrated,
since then they will continue to have to pay the upkeep, but it can't
damage you. Or, even better than that, try Demonic Torment, so they can't
do something annoying like lure+venom -- it won't even be able to attack.
--
"Put away the shotgun, | Jason Spangehl
Bought me a Glock, |
Took a little trip to the funky weed spot, | "and the
Tried to jack me but homie got shot, | only law will be:
Fa,la,la,la,la,la,la,la." | 'do as thou wilt.'"
Cyprus Hill, "Hand on the Glock" |
Warren Chang
they have card denial, they are vulnurable to straight card denial as
well... decks needing dark rituals and mana sources to get out those
creatures will be fucked if someone hymns them on the first turn or plays
a bunch of stuff and balances them to 1 card on the first turn before
they've taken a turn... you might say that any deck would be hurt by
this, but djinn decks would be more so, because they take a min of 3 to
bring out a creature. Also... since you're using cities of brass and
juzam and serendib efreets, you are going to be losing a lot of life...
a straight lightening bolt/psy blast/vice deck will probably get you if
he goes first... 1st turn vice... you play a djinn on turn 2 or
something, but you took 5 from the vice, 1 from your city, 1 from the
djinn, 6 from the 2 lightening bolts he probably has, and you're at 7
already... now if he balances your djinn or something (spirit
link..ahhhh) you're not in good shape... 7 damage is just 2 cards (psy
blast, bolt)
i play with 4 juzams in my tourney deck, but i find the most annoying
cards against them to be balances and links...or maze of ith... some dude
even played COP: Black against me, which was unpleasant even though it
didn't matter too much for my other creatures...
No matter how fast you think your deck can work...how are you going to
beat someone who's playing direct damage and can stop your creatures for
the first few turns (balance, maze, link)? That little advantage will
most likely seal the game...
Forcefield would seem to bother you a little too... since your juzams and
serendibs would be doing the same damage to you as your opponent...a good
thing for direct damage decks...
James Pettifer
: gha...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Garry Handelman) writes:
: > Um.... was there anyone's comments whom I forgot to comment on?
: >Oh yeah!, white weenies. A white knight is one card to stop one _Juzam_
: >djinn, and only juzams, and you aren't gonna bring it out on your first
: >turn. Forgive me for not trembling. White weeny decks have never stopped
: >_any_ serious tournament strategy, arty creatureless decks eat them alive
: >(cowardly little worms with abysses and balances and stasi etc), because
: >white weeny decks are _slow_. Juzam decks are barely fast enough to be
: >doable, and white weeny doesn't have even half their speed.
: I am not so sure that a "slow" White weenie deck can't be easily
: sideboarded to stop your Djinn deck cold. How about if you face
: 4 each of Sword to Plowshare, Spirit Link, Abu Jafar, White Knight?
: That is a lot of Djinn stopping power, mostly for only one White
: mana, leaving mana free to develop an offense. Plus, they are
: cheap enough to get down before you have any certainty of denying
: them away. The Abu's may or may not be useful against other decks.
: They would be useful for slowing either another weenie or any big
: creature deck, or if you are planning on playing Jihad.
: --Peter
: p-w...@uiuc.edu
FreedomTwo
Turn one: I play Tundra, done.
You play Swamp, Lotus, Djinn
I force spike HA HA
Force Spike is a powerful sideboard card. I sideboard it in for any fast
deck
FreedomTwo
have a one lead over you when I play a kismet and a meekstone. Your
control magics will be very useful against my deck, a creatureless one
(Maybe I'll turn my factory into a creature on your turn so you can
control it for a turn.). Force Spikes will stop your first turn Juzams,
and I'll balance or wrath of god the rest of them. I think the card
denial juzam deck is MUCH more well rounded and better
David Furey
played against a Juzam deck (as noone around here has one) I can't imagine
it being totally destroyed by Juzams. 4 Whirling Dervishes, (one of
which can usually be summoned as fast a Juzam) should shut down the
Juzams altogether while the rest of the deck (big meatie flyers) takes its
time to get organized.
Again, this has never played a Juzam deck, so this is idle speculation on my
part.
A few unsummons/control magics go nicely as well.
Just my .02 cents worth.
--
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Alex Ogan
: which can usually be summoned as fast a Juzam) should shut down the
: Juzams altogether while the rest of the deck (big meatie flyers) takes its
Well... Chance are pretty good that that Dervish will be StPed...
Assuming that it's not LBed... Besides, it's a lot easier to get a first
turn Juzam than a first turn Dervish. A good Juzam deck will kill
dervishes using other methods.
--
Alex Ogan
ao...@en.com
Joshua N Kablack
Here's the deck I helped my friend build from cards he borrowed for an
upcoming tourney:
4 Juggernauts
2 Vampires
2 Juzam
2 Bolt
2 Fireball
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Sinkholes
Tutor
Mind Twist
4 Rituals
2 Psi Blast
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Recall
1 Regrowth
1 Mana Vault
3 Black Vices
1 Sol Ring
Larry Disk (only cuz he couldn't scrounge up a Chode Orb)
4 Strip Mines
2 Misha's Factories
Full Set Moxen+Lotus
2 City Pain
4 Badlands
3 Underground Seas
3 Volcanic Island
2 Bayou
Now what sort of deck would people suggest I run to deal with this sort of
thing and why? I either own or can borrow almost any card I need. Remember
that the deck must be generally competitive enough to reach the final
rounds and face this thing.
-josh
Warren Chang
Josh S. Gold (ARJHS 96)
Ahhh!!! This is the prefect deck for the tournament this saturday!!!! The
only problem is the I don't have the F***ING dual lands!!!
Well, I know I can't think of _any_ deck that can beat this.
Oh well.
JOSHUA
Nathan Michael Grover
If you add black to your deck, Paralyze will definitely slow down a good
Djinn deck, even destroy. Unsummon, as you wrote, is excellent. Turn
one he black lotus dark rituals for a badass Djinn with spirit link on
it. You jjust say: "Wow! Can I see that again?" UNSUMMON.
David Furey (dav...@engr.mun.ca) wrote:
: I've got a green/blue speedy-permission type deck, and although it has never
: played against a Juzam deck (as noone around here has one) I can't imagine
: it being totally destroyed by Juzams. 4 Whirling Dervishes, (one of
: which can usually be summoned as fast a Juzam) should shut down the
: Juzams altogether while the rest of the deck (big meatie flyers) takes its
: time to get organized.
: Again, this has never played a Juzam deck, so this is idle speculation on my
: part.
: A few unsummons/control magics go nicely as well.
: Just my .02 cents worth.
: --
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: Empty .sig space, please feel free to insert Craw Giant
: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
--
OwtUvFayze
!!