Type I -- What do you think about Wishes and how do you plan to break them?

3 views
Skip to first unread message

Oscar Tan

unread,
May 12, 2002, 10:22:39 AM5/12/02
to
This is actually the topic of my article on Monday. It's been ready in
Star City for several days, but I was hoping to stir up some
discussion and get people to voice their opinions _before_ the article
comes out (so I can compare my thoughts to other people's independent
musings).

Obviously, they're less useful in aggro decks, so most initial
discussion has been on control and combo, and which might get
restricted.

So... what do you think?

VOTE OSCAR TAN at http://www.ccgprime.com/events/writerwar/poola.html
Oscar Tan, rakso on #BDChat on EFNet
Forum Administrator, Star City Games
(http://www.starcitygames.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi)
Featured writer, Star City Games
(http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=Oscar Tan)
Author of the Control Player's Bible
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bdominia/files/ControlBible.zip)
Type I, Extended and Casual Maintainer, Beyond Dominia
(http://www.starcitygames.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?conf=DCConfID19)
Proud member of the Casual Player's Alliance
(http://www.casualplayers.org)

Erich Leibrock

unread,
May 12, 2002, 11:43:57 AM5/12/02
to
"Oscar Tan" <ra...@impactnet.com> wrote in message
news:2ec48ae2.02051...@posting.google.com...

> This is actually the topic of my article on Monday. It's been ready in
> Star City for several days, but I was hoping to stir up some
> discussion and get people to voice their opinions _before_ the article
> comes out (so I can compare my thoughts to other people's independent
> musings).
>
> Obviously, they're less useful in aggro decks, so most initial
> discussion has been on control and combo, and which might get
> restricted.
>
> So... what do you think?

I think the black one is most likely to be used. Three mana to get any card
that's not in the game is great. But you have to be careful how you play it,
because it also costs half your life total. If a deck can handle Infernal
Contract, Murderous Betrayal, Doomsday, or Lurking Evil, and is able to
handle those or even Necropotence, then running Death Wish should not be
that difficult. Death Grasp and Zuran Orb will help a lot, suggesting
perhaps a B/w deck. Zuran Orb and the white splash suggest to me Balance and
Vindicate. I wouldn't run more than two (Death Wishes) in a deck initially,
however, as they're main job for me is to grab something from sideboard, and
they will be sided out in Games 2 and 3 for whatever you took from the
'board.

Red, however, will find the Burning Wish very useful, as it will grab any
sorcery, from Pyroclasm to Boil. I would suggest that after Death Wish, this
is most likely to be used. The White one is only really good IMO to grab
Circles of Protection or Spheres, and five mana is a lot to grab a card
(compared to two for Red's or three for Black's). As for Blue and Green: are
there any good playable Type 1 Instants, Lands, or Creatures that typically
make sideboard? The only Land I can come up with is Tabernacle at Pendrell
Vale, and the creatures are typically maindecked. As for instants, that's
usually the job of Diabolic Edict, Terminate, and the like, which too are
usually maindecked. Perhaps Blue Elemental Blast or Gainsay, but that's
about it typically.

Here's a deck to start with:

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Rancid Earth
4 Black Knight
3 Juzam Djinn
1 Mind Twist
3 Vindicate
3 Death's Grasp
3 Disenchant
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Balance
2 Death Wish
1 Zuran Orb
1 Library of Alexandria

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Strip Mine
4 Scrubland (B/W)
4 Tainted Peak
8 Swamp

Sideboard:
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spectral Lynx
1 Disenchant
1 Vindicate
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Purify
2 Sacred Ground

I can't make a sideboard for Type 1 to save my life, because I don't know
the Type 1 deck types by name, just by style - eg land destruction, discard,
and so forth. But this is a start.

Erich


Massimo Sabbadini

unread,
May 12, 2002, 2:31:17 PM5/12/02
to
On Sun, 12 May 2002 11:43:57 -0400, "Erich Leibrock"
<elei...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>As for Blue and Green: are
>there any good playable Type 1 Instants, Lands, or Creatures that typically
>make sideboard?

I think this is not the right question. The Wishes could change the
deckbuilding strategy, for example you can side your only Tolarian
Academy (restricted) and maindeck 4 Living Wishes. It is the same
thing as you were running 4 Academies.
The green Wish can also be useful to fetch a sideboarded Negator,
Masticore or Morphling. I think this will be the first one to be
restricted.
The black Wish is versatile but has a major drawback. The white one
costs too much. The blue one can see competitive play as an instant
Merchant Scroll. The red one is my favourite: it can fetch an
Obliterate, Boil or Pyroclasm; it lets you re-use a Will, Restock or
Time Spiral. And these are only the first things that came to my head.


--
Massimo Sabbadini (sesa...@tin.it) - ICQ 14270380
Universita` degli Studi di Verona
Corso di laurea in Informatica - Matricola IN000435

"NON FATEVI PRENDERE DAL PANICO!" (D. Adams)

David Seiler

unread,
May 12, 2002, 6:11:20 PM5/12/02
to
On 12 May 2002, Oscar Tan wrote:
> Obviously, they're less useful in aggro decks, so most initial
> discussion has been on control and combo, and which might get
> restricted.
>
> So... what do you think?

I like Living Wish in Academy...keep your Academy and some nasty aggro
creatures in your board, and then go balls-to-the-wall with whichever one
will work better. It's a great deal more limited in control since it's a
sorcery...I keep thinking "but you could fetch Gorilla Shaman, Wasteland,
Dwarven Miner, Morphling, whatever you neeeded..." Then I take a few deep
breaths and put down the crack pipe. Sorcery-speed tutoring is not what
Type I control needs.

Living Wish is also lots of fun for Enchantress decks, fetching
enchantress, Serra's Sanctum, Gaea's Cradle, or a quick beatdown creature
as needed.

Death Wish is another card that seems destined for combo decks. It does
everything that Living Wish does, and the life loss is often trivial.
Thing is, I can't imagine the combo deck that runs enough black to support
it. PandeBurst maybe? Bargain and Trix and such have enough black, but
can't suck up the life loss.

Golden Wish just sucks. Even in Parfait.

Cunning Wish is interesting. The price is a little high, but it seems
like an excellent card for control even so, since it's blue and functions
at instant speed. But...what instants do you want to tutor for? Fact or
Fiction? Keep it in your board, and you can't draw it or tutor for it
with anything except Cunning Wish. Same goes for all of the other cool
restricted instants. You don't want to replace Plow with it...when you
need those, you often don't have time to spend three mana to find it.
Ditto Fire/Ice.

So what's left? Misdirection, Diabloic Edict, Pyroblast? All good cards,
but what are you going to take out to make room? Any instant that you
move to the board can *only* be tutored for with Cunning Wish. I'd rather
keep my good instants in my deck, where Demonic and Vampiric can find
them.

Burning Wish is sorcery-speed, making is inflexible for control, and there
aren't any sorceries that a combo deck would really want to fetch. There
are lots of powerful sorceries in Type One...but again, I'd rather have
them in my deck than in my sideboard.

So to sum up, Cunning Wish is the most interesting of the lot for control,
and Living Wish has a bright, if short, future in a variety of combo
decks. The thing that holds the wishes back most in Type I, IMHO, is that
you can't make them fetch restricted stuff without making that stuff
unavailable to all of your other tutoring and card drawing.

...ebius sig. This is a moebius sig. This is a mo...

Tim Lammarsch

unread,
May 12, 2002, 6:21:43 PM5/12/02
to
Massimo Sabbadini wrote:

> I think this is not the right question. The Wishes could change the
> deckbuilding strategy, for example you can side your only Tolarian
> Academy (restricted) and maindeck 4 Living Wishes. It is the same
> thing as you were running 4 Academies.

Not exactly. The classic Academy combo deck that killed in turn 1 won't be
possible. But this plan should indeed make very strong decks.

> The green Wish can also be useful to fetch a sideboarded Negator,
> Masticore or Morphling. I think this will be the first one to be
> restricted.

Agreed.

> The black Wish is versatile but has a major drawback. The white one

The black one could rule if somebody finds a way to make a direct win with
it. If you've won, your life is meaningless. (Almost reads like a flavor
text... :-) )

> costs too much. The blue one can see competitive play as an instant

R&D feared combos based on Enchantments. Golden Wish might rule casual play,
but you're right, too much mana for tournament play.

The blue one, seems very interesting. Not only it's an instant - perhaps a
combo piece for a new Academy deck (fetching a Stroke from sideboard)?

> Merchant Scroll. The red one is my favourite: it can fetch an
> Obliterate, Boil or Pyroclasm; it lets you re-use a Will, Restock or
> Time Spiral. And these are only the first things that came to my head.

We'll see. Judgment is coming soon - and I'm looking forward to it more than
any other expansion since Invasion.
--
Tim AKA Commander
<commander AT holycows.de>

Erich Leibrock

unread,
May 12, 2002, 11:13:43 PM5/12/02
to
"Massimo Sabbadini" <sesa...@tin.it> wrote in message
news:1u8tducm04kjrq2ch...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 12 May 2002 11:43:57 -0400, "Erich Leibrock"
> <elei...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >As for Blue and Green: are
> >there any good playable Type 1 Instants, Lands, or Creatures that
typically
> >make sideboard?
>
> I think this is not the right question. The Wishes could change the
> deckbuilding strategy, for example you can side your only Tolarian
> Academy (restricted) and maindeck 4 Living Wishes. It is the same
> thing as you were running 4 Academies.

No it isn't. Though you get the same odds to fetch one, you can only have
the one in play. Running two Academy's in Type 1 would be obscenely broken
to say the least.

> The green Wish can also be useful to fetch a sideboarded Negator,
> Masticore or Morphling. I think this will be the first one to be
> restricted.

Typically, creatures like this will be maindecked instead of sideboarded. As
a Type 2 example, I originally had three FTK's in main in my B/R land
destruction deck and the fourth in the side. That one has since left
altogether to make a home for a graveyard removal spell. Type 1 will
typically do similar. The three you mention are generally too powerful to
leave out of the maindeck.

> The black Wish is versatile but has a major drawback. The white one
> costs too much. The blue one can see competitive play as an instant
> Merchant Scroll. The red one is my favourite: it can fetch an
> Obliterate, Boil or Pyroclasm; it lets you re-use a Will, Restock or
> Time Spiral. And these are only the first things that came to my head.

The life loss from the Death Wish can be worked around, even if simply with
Zuran Orb. I agree with Golden Wish - costs too much for what it does.
Comparing the Blue one to Merchant Scroll is fair, though there aren't many
playable Instants I find that go in sideboards. I agree on the Red one as
well. Well at least we can agree there :)

Erich


Massimo Sabbadini

unread,
May 13, 2002, 2:00:41 PM5/13/02
to
On Sun, 12 May 2002 23:13:43 -0400, "Erich Leibrock"
<elei...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>> Academy (restricted) and maindeck 4 Living Wishes. It is the same
>> thing as you were running 4 Academies.
>
>No it isn't. Though you get the same odds to fetch one, you can only have
>the one in play. Running two Academy's in Type 1 would be obscenely broken
>to say the least.

This was not possible even before restriction, because Academy is a
Legendary Land (ok, it was possible with some type-changing effects,
but not so easy).

>> The green Wish can also be useful to fetch a sideboarded Negator,
>> Masticore or Morphling.

>Typically, creatures like this will be maindecked instead of sideboarded.

I have seen a lot of decks which maindeck 1-2 Morphlings and side
another one (or a Masticore for creature kill). Trix sideboards 4
Negators for game 2.

>> The red one is my favourite: it can fetch an
>> Obliterate, Boil or Pyroclasm

Errata Corrige: Boil is an instant.

Massimo Sabbadini

unread,
May 13, 2002, 2:00:42 PM5/13/02
to
On Mon, 13 May 2002 00:21:43 +0200, Tim Lammarsch <nu...@holycows.de>
wrote:

>> Academy (restricted) and maindeck 4 Living Wishes. It is the same
>> thing as you were running 4 Academies.
>
>Not exactly. The classic Academy combo deck that killed in turn 1 won't be
>possible.

For God's sake...
But a turn 3 kill is possible.

>> The black Wish is versatile but has a major drawback.
>

>The black one could rule if somebody finds a way to make a direct win with
>it. If you've won, your life is meaningless.

I can't see how this could be better than a Demonic Tutor.
If you run a combo deck, you usually place 4 pieces of the combo in
the main deck.

Tim Lammarsch

unread,
May 13, 2002, 7:49:52 PM5/13/02
to
Massimo Sabbadini wrote:

>>The black one could rule if somebody finds a way to make a direct win with
>>it. If you've won, your life is meaningless.
>
> I can't see how this could be better than a Demonic Tutor.

By being not restricted.

> If you run a combo deck, you usually place 4 pieces of the combo in
> the main deck.

Perhaps this will change, perhaps it won't - on thing is for sure: Many
people will playtest to find out.

Tim Lammarsch

unread,
May 13, 2002, 7:52:01 PM5/13/02
to
Massimo Sabbadini wrote:

>>No it isn't. Though you get the same odds to fetch one, you can only have
>>the one in play. Running two Academy's in Type 1 would be obscenely broken
>>to say the least.
>
> This was not possible even before restriction, because Academy is a
> Legendary Land (ok, it was possible with some type-changing effects,
> but not so easy).
>

I don't know how it might have worked with Academies, but perhaps something
similar to the old "tap Cradle, sac Cradle for Crop Rotation for Cradle,
tap Cradle" combo green has.

Erich Leibrock

unread,
May 13, 2002, 8:19:42 PM5/13/02
to
"Massimo Sabbadini" <sesa...@tin.it> wrote in message
news:tvrvdusi11fqn5ag8...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 12 May 2002 23:13:43 -0400, "Erich Leibrock"
> <elei...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >> Academy (restricted) and maindeck 4 Living Wishes. It is the same
> >> thing as you were running 4 Academies.
> >
> >No it isn't. Though you get the same odds to fetch one, you can only have
> >the one in play. Running two Academy's in Type 1 would be obscenely
broken
> >to say the least.
>
> This was not possible even before restriction, because Academy is a
> Legendary Land (ok, it was possible with some type-changing effects,
> but not so easy).

You Wasteland my Academy, I drop another. Just like running four Braids in a
Type 2 deck nowadays. Having four Braids means not only a better chance of
drawing it but dropping another as soon as one dies.

Be VERY CAREFUL when counting tutor-type spells. For search purposes ONLY
you may be able to count them as another copy of Spell X, but not for
playability.

And why would you run the Academy in the Side instead of main?

> >> The green Wish can also be useful to fetch a sideboarded Negator,
> >> Masticore or Morphling.
>
> >Typically, creatures like this will be maindecked instead of sideboarded.
>
> I have seen a lot of decks which maindeck 1-2 Morphlings and side
> another one (or a Masticore for creature kill). Trix sideboards 4
> Negators for game 2.

*shrugs* Why not just maindeck them then? Side them out in game 2 if you
need to.

> >> The red one is my favourite: it can fetch an
> >> Obliterate, Boil or Pyroclasm
>
> Errata Corrige: Boil is an instant.

You sure? I thought it was a sorcery.. let me check..

Boil
{3}{R}
Instant
Destroy all islands.

Sorry about that, you're right. It's a rare land destruction spell that's
actually an instant - most of them are sorceries. I think the last instant
one that I can REMEMBER was Fissure. My bad.

Erich


Oscar Tan

unread,
May 14, 2002, 8:33:17 AM5/14/02
to
> >>No it isn't. Though you get the same odds to fetch one, you can only have
> >>the one in play. Running two Academy's in Type 1 would be obscenely broken
> >>to say the least.
> >
> > This was not possible even before restriction, because Academy is a
> > Legendary Land (ok, it was possible with some type-changing effects,
> > but not so easy).
> >
>
> I don't know how it might have worked with Academies, but perhaps something
> similar to the old "tap Cradle, sac Cradle for Crop Rotation for Cradle,
> tap Cradle" combo green has.

No real need to do that, though. When Academy was unrestricted,
dropping one with all those other unrestricted artifacts was enough of
a mana boost and you could go infinite.

Having 4 copies, of course, means you can find one earlier and go
infinite earlier.

Massimo Sabbadini

unread,
May 15, 2002, 12:11:40 PM5/15/02
to
On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:19:42 -0400, "Erich Leibrock"
<elei...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Be VERY CAREFUL when counting tutor-type spells. For search purposes ONLY
>you may be able to count them as another copy of Spell X, but not for
>playability.
>
>And why would you run the Academy in the Side instead of main?

To increase the odds.

>> I have seen a lot of decks which maindeck 1-2 Morphlings and side
>> another one (or a Masticore for creature kill).
>

>*shrugs* Why not just maindeck them then? Side them out in game 2 if you
>need to.

It depends on the metagame.

>> Errata Corrige: Boil is an instant.
>

>Sorry about that, you're right.

You don't need to apologize. At first I also misremembered.

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages