Ban Cursed Scroll at PTLA!
scott johns
[ Article crossposted from rec.games.trading-cards.magic.misc ]
[ Author was scott johns ]
[ Posted on 24 Jan 98 23:41:57 GMT ]
[The following is posted for Tom Guevin, as he cannot post to News. Though
he wrote it, I and many others agree completely with him, and hope to
generate enough support that the CS will be banned at PTLA, so that the
competitors can have the top-level competitive environment they deserve.]
Cursed scroll must be banned for The Rath Cycle (Tempest Constructed)
and this must take effect in time for Pro Tour LA 3.
The following lists the reasons this card needs to be banned.
1. It's a cheap, reusable colorless source of direct damage. It's a
reusable stormbind - stormbind won PT3 and cursed scroll is worse than
stormbind - because any deck can use it and it's colorless. It gives
both a great way to kill weenies and an easy way to win in the endgame.
It helps both weenie decks who use it to kill fast, and control decks
which use it to kill weenies and as a victory card in the endgame.
2. It's a must have 4 of in every deck card. Much like strip mine, and
balance - any player in the tempest only environment would be foolish
not to put 4 copies of this card in a deck. In this sense it makes the
environment less interesting because 4 cards in your deck are already
decided, and every deck must be prepared to face 4 of this card.
3. There are no hosers of cursed scroll that are any good. No matter
how you try, the only good way to deal with it is single card removal,
like disenchant and shatter. Unlike type 2 and extended, there is no
winter orb, geddon, uktabi orangutan, etc equivalent. Cursed scroll is
a card that must be dealt with, and must be dealt with on a 1-1 basis.
This is similar to the hypnotic specter - deal with it or lose.
4. Cursed Scroll increases the luck factor in magic. Do we want a
pro-tour decided by who can get the right card out of a 3 card hand, or
who gets the 50-50 shot to kill an opponent. Sure when you have one
card who cares? But that isn't what usually happens. There's luck in
the scroll, and not every time you can get your hand down to 1 card.
I've had 5 cards and 6 cards in hand with 2 to 3 copies of the named
card and still hit with it several turns and missed with it several
turns. This is just more coin flipping.
5. Increased likelihood of cheating. If you've ever seen people deal
off the bottom you know what I'm talking about. Sure you can roll a
dice or flip a coin for 2 cards, but what do you do for 7? The way I've
done it is to hold the cards and say 1 to 7, and then show taht card.
I've been shown by several card sharks how to hold a card at the bottom
and then show the card when the number comes up. Sure if you're looking
really close you can spot it. But what if your opponent uses the scroll
several times - you don't watch even once and you can get cheated. You
could argue that people could cheat during a hymm, but unlike hymm where
you lose the cards you palm, scroll you keep all the cards regardless.
And hymms tend to be a once or twice per game thing - scrolls are 5 to
20 times per game...
6. Cursed Scroll has potential to break the Paris Mulligan rule.
Against certain decks, a starting hand of 2 cursed scroll and 3 land or
1 scroll, 1 scalding tong and 3 land may be an advantageous thing. I
haven't seen a deck created yet to take advantage of this, but it is one
more potential problem.
Some of you may be saying, this is just Tom Guevin on one of his
Frenetic Efreet tirades. Well I'm not the only one saying that Cursed
Scroll should be banned for Tempest constructed. Here are some clipping
to what some of the top players and judges on the pro tour have been
saying about the scroll:
Erik Lauer: "The randomness of this card is one of the highest ever
(i.e. a hymn or frenetic averages two random accesses -- while the
cursed scroll sits out there for potentially many turns), the power
level is the highest. Ancient runes is not a real solution to the
problem ...", "...last constructed PT they changed the rules 3 days
before the PT ; I think they can still make a Feb 1 announcement that
"this card has to go" -- it is obviously "the card" in the set."
Darrell Breese: "As a Level 2 judge and a tourney organizer (Alaska
PTQ's, Regionals, etc.) I have to say I agree with your points regarding
the strength of Cursed Scroll in Tempest constructed play. At a recent
tourney in my shop the top 8 decks had 24 Cursed Scrolls in
them.(Tempest Constructed Tourney)."
Jeff Donais: "...it is definitely the most broken card in the
environment at this time."
John Chinnook: "...I completely agree with the majority of players who
feel it should be banned. I know that WotC generally has a policy of
banning as few cards as possible, and also waiting until a card proves
itself to be broken before taking any action. I do agree with this
policy for almost all cases, but I feel that the Scroll is an exception
... just consider how much the entire environment is opened up by
removing this one card. I know that WotC is hesitant to alter any
environment's cardset on dates other than the ones specificly announced,
yet please realize that after PTLA, nobody will ever again care about
Tempest Constucted, and the damage will have already been done. On a
final note, I have been testing for PTLA for awhile now (mostly with Jon
Finkel and the NJ guys) and we've made about 10-15 quality competitive
decks. Every one of these decks that is competitive and top-notch not
only has 4 Cursed Scrolls, but has many maindeck cards in preparation
for opponents' Scrolls. The environment should not be this warped by
one card."
Chris Bishop (Minister of Propaganda - Tongo Nation): "got a copy of
your [email about Cursed Scroll]; couldn't agree with you more. Every
deck considered for LA has four, and it's a damn shame. ...anything I
can do to help ban it, please let me know."
Alan Newman (MPA): "in the case of cards like the Frenetic and Cursed
Scroll, an inferior player with an inferior deck can easily win if
sufficiently lucky. In the case of the Scroll, this circumstance is
even worse since 4 can fit into almost *any* deck. In Tempest only, the
card clearly approaches the power of Hymn to Tourach..."
Scott Johns (in reply to should the scroll be banned): "GOD YES! I
cannot support this enough, and am very happy to see omeone already
organizing. If WotC is worth their salt, it seems impossible to not
restrict=ban this card! If ever there was an undercosted, 4 in every
deck no-brainer, this is it."
Kristopher Lohman: "...as I look at the current Tempest-only
environment, Cursed Scroll is much like Strip Mine was in Type II in
1996--pretty much a 4 in every deck card. If a card is so
powerful/game-breaking that its inclusion is deemed necessary for a deck
of any style or theme, than it does not belong in the environment."
Michael Rand: "I don't think that saying that every deck can use Scroll
is exactly the point, though it is a problem. A more descriptive
statement would say that Tempest only boils down into who can use the
Scroll the most effectiently, and that an entire play environment should
not boil down to the abuse of one card as a theme or subtheme of every
deck in it."
But what about the logistics of such a late banning. A few players,
like Peter Radjonic have expressed concern about months of playtesting
going down the drain. To these players I'd argue that if the Scroll is
banned February 1st, you will have over one month to adapt your decks to
the new balance of power. A couple players have commented that banning
scroll would make blue decks go wild. I'd argue that the environment is
balanced enough and has enough hosers that with metagame adjustments you
should be able to handle any deck.
This cursed scroll fiasco again brings into question exactly how wizards
should handle bannings and restrictions. Wizards should rework their
schedule. The fact that no one spoke up about the scroll before Jan 1
was because no one had been testing that format. This is demonstrative
of the Scroll problem in general and Wizard's ban/restricted schedule in
particular. The game is centered around
the cards, and all aspects of the game, from Pro-Tours, to
banned/restricted lists, to release dates, should center around the
environments. For example, if a set comes out in January, the next
banned restricted date should not be until March, when the environment
as had some time to settle a bit. Furthermore, there should be another
banned restricted date at least one whole month before Pro Tour events.
None of this last minute Abeyance errata.
An alternate solution was suggested by Rob Dougherty - a level 3 judge
and owner of Your Move Games in Boston. He hinted about a potential
compromise - enforcing the rulling Cursed Scroll to not be able to
target an opponent. This back door solution has merit, and would
definitely solve much of the problem. The logistics of this solution
are similar to the abeyance problem - when should the rule go into
effect, and how can you be sure all the judges and players get notified
in time.
I first emailed Skaff Elias on Decemeber 24th about my concern that
Cursed Scroll should be banned. One month later I come to you the magic
public (both pro tour and non-pro tour players) and ask for your help
and support in moving this motion forward.
On January 27th I will put together a final draft of this letter and
send it to Wizards. I hope to have them make a decision by February
1st.
-----------------
-Tom Guevin
tgu...@ctron.com
--
-Tom G.
WZElliott
I thought your rant was very well thought out and presented. I have been
playing on-line and this card is definately too prevalent. You are right in
that it totally wrecks the Tempest constructed environment, seeing as the only
deck which would NOT conceivably benefit from it would be some sort of lock
deck which would be too tight once it had the combo and whatever was necessary
to set it up - and I haven't seen anything like that posted at all for Tempest
constructed. It's a shame that Wizards doesn't restrict cards in type II
anymore; I thought it was important to have a middle ground where cards could
still be used without overwhelming the current play environment. This gives
them no middle room once they have a card like CS, which everybody wants to
use. Still, even with the choice between banning and keeping unrestricted, I
would have to go with the ban. Chinook's comments are the most damning in this
regard, where he mentions the 10-15 decks they have worked out for LA, each and
every one of them with not 2, not three, but 4 CS. When you can develop that
many approaches within a play environment and still not get away from your need
to use a single card from that environment, that card is broken in that
context.
BIGFRICK
The only reason anyone wants to ban a card now that wizards has changed the way
they playtest are little newbies that get beat by better players and pick a
card out of the good player's deck that hurt them the most and say that it
should be banned. That is the reason for this thread.
scott johns
[ Article crossposted from rec.games.trading-cards.magic.misc ]
[ Author was hbmu...@csun.edu ]
[ Posted on Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:21:38 -0600 ]
In article <ezZxqQS...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
"David Sachs" <us...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Why should this be necessary? There are enough decks around, that are fast
> enough to shrug off the damage from the Scroll.
>
> --
> *** The Klingon's favorite food was named by the first earthling to see it
> ***
> David Sachs - Fermilab - MS369 - PO Box 500 - Batavia, IL 60510
This is certainly true in any other format, but all who I have spoken to
that have tested Tempest Only for PTLA have unanimously agreed that this
is clearly not true in that format.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
scott johns
In article <6aeq3b$vb4$1...@newssvr09-int.news.prodigy.com>,
"Nicol Bolas" <NICOL...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> <<Long winded message clipped. Certain parts are pasted later as needed>>
>
> Now this is what pisses me off. You people are all supposed to be TOP LEVEL
> PLAYERS for Christ's Sake!! Can't you figure out a way to handle the Cursed
> Scroll? That's what you people are considered top-level for...you are
> supposed to be able to figure a way to handle every situation. Or is your
> way to handle the situation crying shamelessly until the DCI or whoever bans
> the stupid card for you?
>
The call to ban CS in TE is not shameless crying. It is an attempt to
prevent the stupidity of having a card in the format that everyone who is
playteesting agrees will be a 4 to a deck no-brainer in 95% of all decks.
Further, your post is childish and results to ad hominem name-calling to
support what I can only guess is a very limited amount of actual testing
in the format. All of the best players agree that the card is broken
because it is. Its that simple. The DCI criterium for restriction/banning
are well known, and the CS fits not just one but many of them in Tempest
only. Put simply, the CS in TE-Only is undercosted and overpowered in an
environment ill-eqiuped to deal with it satisfactorily.
> The reason the DCI's Banned/Restricted lists are so long are because of
> people like you guys. The time you spend crying and complaining about
> banning a card could probably be much more beneficial for you and everyone
> else involved in the game if you would spend the time trying to figure out a
> way around the card.
>
The reason the banned/restricted list is so long is because out of the
thousands of cards that have been released, a very relative few have been
deemed to powerful by the DCI, as per its criterium of
restriction/banning. It seems clear to all who have tested TE-Only that
the CS belongs to be on that list also, but has not been added yet
because the DCI usually waits until a card has been proven broken in
play. In this case however, the card seems so clearly borken that it is
ludicrous to wait until it is to late for the PTLA competitors.
> >>every deck must be prepared to face 4 of this card.
>
> As a top level player, shouldn't you be prepared to face 4 of ANY ca
> me.
>
To be honest, I never understood this line of thinking. So you think 4
ancestrals and 4 mind twists and 4 balance should be allowed, since top
players should be able to deal with it? Point is, there are formats
where certain cards are so powerful that they damage the competitive
integrity of the event. This is handled by removing the offending cards.
There is clear concencus among the top players so far that the CS is such
a card, and allowing it to have such a riddiculous influence on the
environment is bad for the competitors who spend their time, effort, and
money, and also for Wizards and DCI, who want to establish Magic as an
intellectual sport.
> >>deal with it or lose
>
> Isn't that true for every card?
>
To a certain extent the above is true, but only in a very limited
sense. Will an unchecked mons goblin raider kill you if you do nothing
about it? Yes, but only if the opponent does virtually nothing and has
almost nothing of use in play for a very long time. In the case of the
cursed sroll, it tends to have a tremendous ability to have to much swing
in the course of the game, to the point of being overpowering. Further,
due to its cost and nature, it is being seen in 4s in virtually every
competetive TE-Only deck I have seen, and all the other experienced
players I know have said the same thing.
Scott Johns
Jeff Peterson
monkey testing cards at WotC? It seems like it's one major broken card
or combo after another.
Stephen Rollins
It is noted that many want the cursed scroll banned, at most I think it
should be restricted. The card is not all powerful, in fact the most
amount of damage is not that much, the card is alot like playing uno.
That is one of the drawbacks of the scroll because you must empty your
hand and your opponent knows what is in your hand.
The major problem that the play testers should have spotted is that in
a tourney enviroment where creature decks reign, this card is a must for
any of those decks. This card proves to be too powerful because any
deck can use it, it's an artifact and artifact has not been too popular
lately, deals two damage to any target, and is much more powerful than
the overly powerful stormbind! wotc tried to remove stormbind by making
a counterpart pegasus refuge (which really sucks in compair, but hey
they tried didn't they).
Eric Taylor
> Some of you may be saying, this is just Tom Guevin on one of his
> Frenetic Efreet tirades. Well I'm not the only one saying that Cursed
A nice analysis, however, despite the length of Tom's post, in my
opinion it misses some of the key ways in which the cursed scroll is
actually overpowered, and it misses some of the implications of what
cursed scroll does to the magic environment.
First of all, I wouldn't compare it to other damage cards. Cursed
scroll should be compared to life gainers.
In type 2, an incinerate is 2 mana, healing salve (a terrible card for
constructed) only costs 1. In type 1, for 3 mana, a psionic blasts
does 4 damage, has a horrible side effect of 2 damage to yourself,
while mangara's blessing even with a great additional ability heals for
5 life. Fountain of youth costs 0 to cast, and 2 to activate, while
telim tor's darts costs 2 mana for an exactly equivalent ability. Rod
of ruin costs 4 to cast, 3 to activate while Amulet of Kroog costs only
2 to cast and 2 to activate.
Cursed scroll breaks one of the primal symmtries of the game. Its
existance is like giving white a lightning bolt for 1 mana. Because
the symmetry of the game has been broken, there is a lack of balance in
deck designs now --- too much power has been given to the side of
damage. If cursed scroll cost 4 mana to cast this symmetry would be
restored, but at 1 mana it unbalances the entire game of magic.
An interesting effect of the card is that it operates under an "UNO"
environment. Most decks with 4 cursed scrolls operate best with at
least 3 mana in play, maybe a few creatures and a cursed scroll.
Every other card in your deck with cursed scroll is merely a card to
cast so you can drop down to 1 card and use your cursed scroll. This
rewards what otherwise would have been bad play. You have a hand full
of creatures and a cursed scroll. You cast everything. Now when your
opponent kills all of your creatures with a rolling thunder or the
equivalent, you have been rewarded by your hasty play, because now your
cursed scroll is working. And even if you don't already have a cursed
scroll in play, if you have cast your entire hand out, your opponent
has killed all your creatures, he has complete control except for no
artifact destruction at the moment, if you bonk the top of your deck
with your fist, say, "Hit me cursed scroll," and then happen to top deck
a cursed scroll, you can say "UNO! I win." Your opponent normally has
just a few turns before your cursed scroll wins the game.
The problem is not that there are insufficent methods to destroy the
cursed scroll, the problem is that unlike other artifacts, if the
cursed scroll is left on the table for just a few turns, it can be game
over. In 5 turns, it does 10 damage, damage from an artifact so you
can't block it with your creatures like creature damage (creatures with
which cursed scroll is equivalent in power and reusability unlike any
other artifact damage except for T1 artifacts like black vise and
mirror universe). If you have 5-6 ways of dealing with the cursed
scroll in your deck, then the probability of drawing 1 or more of them
in 5 turns is around 50%. Because of the amount of damage and the low
resource requirement for using the cursed scroll, this means is that if
you decide to play an "anti-scroll" deck, you can't normally just go
one for one, that is 4 anti-scroll effects against someone with 4
scrolls -- what you would have to do is use quite a bit more
anti-scroll effects than you opponent has scrolls. This over-kill
leads to dead cards if your opponent doesn't have cursed scroll in play
which creates in net a large card disadvange for the anti-scroll
decks. This leads to the conclusion that the best way to deal with
your opponent's cursed scroll is to use 4 cursed scrolls yourself, and
play this new kind of magic, that like Pat Chapin says, is just another
name for "UNO!"
As to whether cursed scroll should be banned or not for LA. . . I
think it would be tremendously silly and fun to have a PT "UNO"
tournament, and only after LA is over, it should be banned from T2.
Despite the power of the cursed scroll and its dominance, I think it
will be interesting to see, however unlikely, if anyone in the PT can
beat this card. We already have Pro Tours with sealed deck, so even if
it is PT "UNO", at least it be a constructed tournament.
"The ORIGINAL UNO, AMERICA's #1 CARD GAME. OBJECT: Be the first player
to score 500 points. Points are scored by being the first to rid
yourself of all the cards in your hand. THE PLAY: Each player in
turn attempts to play one card. When you have one card let, yell
UNO!"
By the way, the UNO effect of the cursed scroll is in fact one of the
reasons that the hymn to tourach has become much more relatively weak
than tithe in the extended format.
--- edt
ka...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
BIGFRICK (bigf...@aol.com) wrote:
: The only reason anyone wants to ban a card now that wizards has changed the way
: they playtest are little newbies that get beat by better players and pick a
: card out of the good player's deck that hurt them the most and say that it
: should be banned. That is the reason for this thread.
Oh, you're back.
<plonk>
--
Randomness is not hypocrisy, if done with honesty.
In chaos, all is possible.
Jim Monk
Just a quick note to help show why CS is bad in Te Only constructed :
First off one scroll (2 dammage) can kill 63 of the tempest critters
outright (thats 63 / 120).
More than 1/2 the critters are dead from 1 scroll.
If you add a second scroll you reach the figure of 106 / 120 !
So you can see that for critter control it rocks. Reusable, and card
advantage built in.
Now lets look at cards which can deal with the scroll :
Artifact land etc. : None
Black : None
Green : One
Red : 3 (+ 1 kinda)
Blue : 1 (+ 4 kinda) + 4 counters + Meddling
White : 1
Total (including counters) 10 (+5)
They are the following power cards ! :
Green Verdigis 3cc only good vs Artifacts
Red Shatter 2cc only good vs Artifacts
Aftershock 4cc + 3 Pain More flexy but high cost + life
Starke of Rath 3cc + Summoning sick + can be killed by scroll
+ loss of resource !
Blue Legerdemain 4cc + need an artifact to swap but nick his scroll
;-)
White Disenchant 2cc Flexy and cheap
+ 4 counters
+ Kinda solutions :
Red A. Ruins Does less damage than the scroll and could hurt you too
Blue Interdict, not a long term solution
Boomerange, Bounce then counter 2 for 1 not good
Capsize, Less card loss if you can buy back, but by this point
you could have taken 8 damage.
Tradewind Rider, You need 3 critters out + a counter 4 : 1
cards. Also how have your critters survived this long ?
So from the above list I would say that only disenchant (and counters)
is a "Quality" option.
And remember the power of enchantments in Te (Propaganda et al.), those
4 disenchants could feel a little light quite quickly...
Now does every one see the power of CS in Tempest Only ?
Helpfully yours
Jim
Unknown
I seem to remember not long ago having to argue that cursed scroll was
a tourney viable card.... My how things change.
In tempest constructed, the majority of critters have a 1 toughness.
This makes scroll lock a very deadly problem. I can see your
arguments for banning it in tempest constructed.
But as far as the person who suggested banning it in t2. Get a grip.
It's nowhere near that good in t2.
Craig
Elliot Fertik
Craig Sivils (csi...@hotmail.com) (csi...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: I seem to remember not long ago having to argue that cursed scroll was
: a tourney viable card.... My how things change.
I also read this thread with a certain amount of glee. I've had endless
arguments with Mike Flores over whether Cursed Scroll is a good card or
not. I said from the very beginning that it was an incredible card in the
right deck; he said it sucked. (He made fun of me for putting in my sligh
deck. Gee, who does the world agree with, Mike!). Now, cursed scroll is
showing up in Extended, Type 2 - and people are calling for its banning in
Tempest constructed.
I will fully admit that I haven't playtested in Tempest constructed, so I
don't speak with all of the authority that others might. But I'm not so
sure that CS should be banned. Consider:
1. To use cursed scroll effective you must empty your hand. Generally,
that isn't a very good thing to do. particularly in an environment where
sweepers exist. True, there is no Armageddon in Tempest Constructed, but
there IS Winds of Wrath, so a person who plays out all of his creatures
will probably have to pay for it.
2. I don't think CS extends the luck factor too much; certainly no more
than frenetic efreet. In order to use it effectively, you need to get
down to one card, and that takes skill, not luck.
3. I'm not convinced people have been trying on hard enough to deal with
the scroll. Off the top of my head, how about static orb? It takes mana
to run the cursed scroll. (As a side note, how about a static
orb/propaganda/tong deck. Control may yet be playable).
On the other hand, I think the biggest strike against CS in the Tempest
environment is the lack of good artifact removal. Aside from disenchant,
the rest of the artifact removal really blows in Tempest (compare
Vertigris to Uktabi Oranutang, and you'll get my point). Put CS in the
Mirage Vision Weatherlight environment, on the other hand, and it wouldn't
control at all.
In sum, I'm not completely sure if CS should be banned for PT LA - and
unless I win next Sunday in Edison, it won't matter. :) But it is kinda
nice to be vindicated in saying that CS is a great card.
-Elliot Fertik
Frederick Scott
(TO REPLY VIA E-MAIL, STRIP 'XYXYX' FROM THE ADDRESS)
jef...@discover-net.net writes:
>Ban the card! It's insanely overpowerful for Tempest sealed. Who's the
>monkey testing cards at WotC? It seems like it's one major broken card
>or combo after another.
Oh, don't get on WotC's case about this matter. This is one thing - avoiding
overpowered cards - that they've done a damn good job at for the last few
releases. It's not that easy. If you're going to write interesting cards,
a few of them are going to turn out to be more powerful than you first
expected. I suspect it's even not that hard for such cards to get through
playtest, too.
One thing I defintely _don't_ want to see is for WotC to go back into cower-
behind-the-couch mode and print expansions chock full of useless cards because
they're too scared to actually print a card that _does_ somethng.
And, oh yeah, (quick soapbox) playtest cards for LONGER! Leave MORE TIME
between releases!!! (- quick soapbox)
As for Scott's/Tom's comments about Cursed Scroll, why not just be satisfied
with the unerrated version or the card - which (in a two-player game) can't
target anything but creatures? That's still pretty buff for a card but it may
be a lot more balanced in the overall environment. Especially considering
that it takes more than one of them to kill any but weenies by themselves.
Fred
Frederick Scott
(TO REPLY VIA E-MAIL, STRIP 'XYXYX' FROM THE ADDRESS)
"IBwav...@worldnet.att.net"@postoffice.worldnet.att.net writes:
>It is noted that many want the cursed scroll banned, at most I think it
>should be restricted.
There's no such thing as a "restricted" list in standard. Apart from the
questionable philosophy of merely restricting a card that's determined to
be overpowered, restricting inflates the power of cards like Tutors since
they would allow you to go fetch an overpowered card instead of just a
specific (but otherwise balanced) card.
Fred
Frederick Scott
(TO REPLY VIA E-MAIL, STRIP 'XYXYX' FROM THE ADDRESS)
The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> writes:
>
>Cursed Scroll - whether banned or not, February 1st is the day that we
>must see some action on the card. While playtesting for Tempest
>constructed has been the chore of many players, a change in cursed scroll
>after that date but before the PTLA will be devastating (it HORRIBLY hurt
>me for the PTChicago).
>
>If WotC is paying any attention, and if they even care one iota about the
>state of their games, they will have their decision finalized and
>publicized with the February 1st releases. (Don't hold your breath)
Er, remember that Febuary 1st is just the day when new ruling come out.
Banning and restrictions for April 1st don't come out until March 1st.
Fred
FrkShowBob
What I think magic needs is an expansion with a bunch of OVERPOWERED cards!!
This game has gotten to be a lame horse when compared to what it used to be.
Now we have expansions filled with overcosted, underpowered cards. Cards like
Cursed Scroll that are actually good are a breath of fresh air. We've all seen
the power cards degrade into wimpy cards that cost three times as much to cast,
or do a third of what the old ones do.
I hope this little rant has brought to your attention how serious this
degredation is becoming. I mean, what kind of set is it when the most powerful
cards are Meditate(Yeah, I want to spend 3 times as much as an Ancestral, and
skip a turn for a 1 card advantage (4 - The card itself(1) - the extra draw an
opponent takes(1) - and the draw you lose (1) = 1!!!!!)) and cursed scroll.
Cursed scroll is good, but it shouldn't be the most overpowering card in a set.
Mike
frksh...@aol.com
ODariani
i don't think any serious argument can be made for banning the scroll in type
II as there are many efficient ways to deal with it, such as winter orb,
orangutan, goblin vandal/tinkerer, builder's bane (!), and the seldom used null
rod. these global or multi use effects alone are enough to diminish the
usefulness of the scroll, not to mention disenchant, divine offering, aura of
silence, steal artifact(!) and shatter.
as for tempest only, i have to go with banning it, the argument is too
convincing. i have seen the scroll win too many games in type II and extended
to believe it less powerful in a more limited environment. the fact is: it is
cheap, colorless, reuseable damage. that is usually very powerful. take it
with some salt then try it yourself and see what we are talking about. build a
tempest deck that not only deals with scroll effectively, but can beat
creatures and do so without its own scrolls.
omeed.
JarOfDrmz
The best thing i can come up with would be propa/orb, only this would be static
orb we are talking about.
Jim
TCG
KS State Champ Standard 1997
Grifter
ODariani wrote:
> as for tempest only, i have to go with banning it, the argument is too
> convincing. i have seen the scroll win too many games in type II and extended
> to believe it less powerful in a more limited environment. the fact is: it is
> cheap, colorless, reuseable damage. that is usually very powerful. take it
> with some salt then try it yourself and see what we are talking about. build a
> tempest deck that not only deals with scroll effectively, but can beat
> creatures and do so without its own scrolls.
Fortunatly for me, the SC decks haven't hit the TE tournaments yet in my
region. But I believe that banning is to harsh. I say, restrict it first
then see what happens. For sure everyone would have a SC in their deck,
but at least it's better than having 4 SC agaisnt you...
G-MAN
ODariani
>Fortunatly for me, the SC decks haven't hit the TE tournaments yet in my
>region. But I believe that banning is to harsh. I say, restrict it first
>then see what happens. For sure everyone would have a SC in their deck,
>but at least it's better than having 4 SC agaisnt you...
to clarify, it is cursed scroll, so the abbreviation would be cs, for anyone
reading. (was a little confused at first myself then i realized it was an
honest mistake).
the dci has made it clear they don't want to restrict cards anymore as it adds
too much of a luck factor to the game. if i draw my scroll first, for example,
i should have board control. the solution is the banning of any offending
cards, such as squandered in mvwl.
omeed.
The Corrupter
On 27 Jan 1998, FrkShowBob wrote:
> I hope this little rant has brought to your attention how serious this
> degredation is becoming. I mean, what kind of set is it when the most
> powerful cards are Meditate(Yeah, I want to spend 3 times as much as an
> Ancestral, and skip a turn for a 1 card advantage (4 - The card
> itself(1) - the extra draw an opponent takes(1) - and the draw you
> lose (1) = 1!!!!!)) and cursed scroll.
Not to nitpick (even though I am), but Meditate gives you two card advantage:
4 cards - 1 from the card used - 1 from the card the opponent draws.
Counting the card for the opponent and the one you don't draw is counting
the same thing twice.
Exactingly,
Adrian Sullivan <http://upl.cs.wisc.edu/~adrian/jyhad>
@#$ The Corrupter $#@ GAT/CS/WS C(+++)$ N++ PS++@ b++ R+++* r+ z++**?
Game Theorist, Coffee Addict, Opinionated Gynophile Hedonist MHTHTS
But who needs labels? - Comments always welcome...
Adam Rettberg
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, The Corrupter wrote:
}}On 27 Jan 1998, FrkShowBob wrote:
}}
}}> I hope this little rant has brought to your attention how serious this
}}> degredation is becoming. I mean, what kind of set is it when the most
}}> powerful cards are Meditate(Yeah, I want to spend 3 times as much as an
}}> Ancestral, and skip a turn for a 1 card advantage (4 - The card
}}> itself(1) - the extra draw an opponent takes(1) - and the draw you
}}> lose (1) = 1!!!!!)) and cursed scroll.
}}
}}Not to nitpick (even though I am), but Meditate gives you two card advantage:
}}
}} 4 cards - 1 from the card used - 1 from the card the opponent draws.
}}
}}Counting the card for the opponent and the one you don't draw is counting
}}the same thing twice.
}}
Plus, this whole Meditate thing was already discussed at length and this 2
card advantage was agreed to be true.
We Are
adam
Third of Five
oeagrus
BIGFRICK wrote in message <19980125193...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>The only reason anyone wants to ban a card now that wizards has changed the
way
>they playtest are little newbies that get beat by better players and pick a
>card out of the good player's deck that hurt them the most and say that it
>should be banned. That is the reason for this thread.
Just when we thought we'd heard the last from our pompous friend,
he's here to tell us that we are all wrong, and he is right.
Bigfrick, your opinion here is worthless.
Unknown
fred_...@netcom.com (Frederick Scott) wrote:
>(TO REPLY VIA E-MAIL, STRIP 'XYXYX' FROM THE ADDRESS)
>"IBwav...@worldnet.att.net"@postoffice.worldnet.att.net writes:
>>It is noted that many want the cursed scroll banned, at most I think it
>>should be restricted.
>There's no such thing as a "restricted" list in standard. Apart from the
>questionable philosophy of merely restricting a card that's determined to
>be overpowered, restricting inflates the power of cards like Tutors since
>they would allow you to go fetch an overpowered card instead of just a
>specific (but otherwise balanced) card.
The original post was for tempest constructed, not standard.
Anyone who thinks cursed scroll is "broken" in standard is standing on
weak ground IMO.
Disks, Monkies, fat creatures, bounce.
There are many many ways to deal with the lil ole scroll, many to the
advantage of the non-scroller.
Craig
Gere Camper
Come on Jim. I know that you have come up with better lately. ;-)
Cam
TCG
JarOfDrmz <jaro...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980127063...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
Minister of Propaganda
JarOfDrmz wrote:
> The best thing i can come up with would be propa/orb, only this would be static
> orb we are talking about.
>
Unfortunately, pretty much everyone will play 4+ anti-Scroll cards along with
their 4 Scrolls, so your Orbs get popped quickly. Soon after, whatever Scrolls are
down fire right back up. Too bad Orb's not an enchantment. That'd be a real start
to balancing out the Scroll in Tempest constructed.
bishop
Mike Rose
I'm going to have to disagree with the "UNO" statement. Don't get me wrong,
I think it's undeniable that the Scroll is a great and powerful card. I
used four in my PTQ deck (didn't qualify however). I just don't think it's
this overwhelming, all powerful, game destroying card that some are making
it out to be. Both of my current Tempest only decks are hardly affected by
it.
One is my Static Orb / Propaganda deck (yes, Static Orb does kill the
Scroll) and the other is mostly Green (can it be, and environment in which
green is viable?). Canopy Spiders, Trained Armodons, and Heartwood Treefolk
pretty much laugh at the Scroll. I find it hard to believe that if I have
two decks that don't fear the Scroll at all, it is a card that needs to be
banned.
But what do I know. After all I didn't qualify for PTLA this time around
even with four Scrolls in my deck.
--
-Mike Rose
"Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try."
When responding via email, remove TRASH from the address.
Eric Taylor wrote in message <6agnma$k0c$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>...
>An interesting effect of the card is that it operates under an "UNO"
>environment. Most decks with 4 cursed scrolls operate best with at
>least 3 mana in play, maybe a few creatures and a cursed scroll.
>
>Every other card in your deck with cursed scroll is merely a card to
>cast so you can drop down to 1 card and use your cursed scroll. This
>rewards what otherwise would have been bad play. You have a hand full
>of creatures and a cursed scroll. You cast everything. Now when your
>opponent kills all of your creatures with a rolling thunder or the
>equivalent, you have been rewarded by your hasty play, because now your
>cursed scroll is working. And even if you don't already have a cursed
>scroll in play, if you have cast your entire hand out, your opponent
>has killed all your creatures, he has complete control except for no
>artifact destruction at the moment, if you bonk the top of your deck
>with your fist, say, "Hit me cursed scroll," and then happen to top deck
>a cursed scroll, you can say "UNO! I win." Your opponent normally has
>just a few turns before your cursed scroll wins the game.
>
(rest of message snipped)
Mike Rose
Samuel Stoddard
Mike Rose (mikea...@msn.trash.com) wrote:
: I'm going to have to disagree with the "UNO" statement. Don't get me wrong,
: I think it's undeniable that the Scroll is a great and powerful card. I
: used four in my PTQ deck (didn't qualify however). I just don't think it's
: this overwhelming, all powerful, game destroying card that some are making
: it out to be. Both of my current Tempest only decks are hardly affected by
: it.
: One is my Static Orb / Propaganda deck (yes, Static Orb does kill the
: Scroll) and the other is mostly Green (can it be, and environment in which
: green is viable?). Canopy Spiders, Trained Armodons, and Heartwood Treefolk
: pretty much laugh at the Scroll. I find it hard to believe that if I have
: two decks that don't fear the Scroll at all, it is a card that needs to be
: banned.
: But what do I know. After all I didn't qualify for PTLA this time around
: even with four Scrolls in my deck.
: --
Scroll isnt broken in ext. There is artifact destruction comming out of
your ass, and there are a LOT of creatures Scroll cant kill. Tempest only,
on the other hand, is full of scrollable critters, and has only 4 true
artifact destruction spells (Black and Blue have none of them).
Also, just becasue a deck with 4/ scrolls CAN be beat, dosent mean that
Scroll isnt broken.
--
{=====Sam Stoddard====================================================}
| The willow knows that the storm does not: That the power to endure|
| pain outlives the power to inflict it. -Blood of the martyr, MtG |
{============================================Lupine on IRC============}
T. Holcomb
On 25 Jan 1998, BIGFRICK wrote:
> The only reason anyone wants to ban a card now that wizards has changed the way
> they playtest are little newbies that get beat by better players and pick a
> card out of the good player's deck that hurt them the most and say that it
> should be banned. That is the reason for this thread.
>
>
Maybe they should change the name of this thread to: BigFrick is a
dumbass. Maybe you should read the article before you give a lame
criticism of it.
Ty Holcomb
T. Holcomb
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, The Corrupter wrote:
> On 27 Jan 1998, FrkShowBob wrote:
>
> > I hope this little rant has brought to your attention how serious this
> > degredation is becoming. I mean, what kind of set is it when the most
> > powerful cards are Meditate(Yeah, I want to spend 3 times as much as an
> > Ancestral, and skip a turn for a 1 card advantage (4 - The card
> > itself(1) - the extra draw an opponent takes(1) - and the draw you
> > lose (1) = 1!!!!!)) and cursed scroll.
>
> Not to nitpick (even though I am), but Meditate gives you two card advantage:
>
> 4 cards - 1 from the card used - 1 from the card the opponent draws.
>
> Counting the card for the opponent and the one you don't draw is counting
> the same thing twice.
True, which would make the card advantage earned equal to ancestral
recall. Meditate is similar to trading life for an ancestral recall.
Ty Holcomb
Darrell L. Breese
> On 25 Jan 1998, BIGFRICK wrote:
>
> > The only reason anyone wants to ban a card now that wizards has
changed the way
> > they playtest are little newbies that get beat by better players and pick a
> > card out of the good player's deck that hurt them the most and say that it
> > should be banned. That is the reason for this thread.
> >
> >
Bigfrick,
I believe this thread was started by a "better player" and not a little
newbie. At least I consider Tom Guiven (Sorry if I misspelled your last
name Tom) a better player. The push is to get this card Banned in the Rath
Cycle Constructed format, due to several key factors.
1) Lack of Artifact removal
2) being able to fit 4 Cursed Scrolls in EVERY deck
3) Being a reusable source of Damage that targeets both Creatures and Players.
4) A lack of large creatures in the format (especially without major drawbacks)
5) It being a colorless source of damage makes it difficult to get around
as well.
6) ETC. ETC.
Read the Thread, understand the Thread before criticizing the Thread.
ka...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
T. Holcomb (thol...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: On 25 Jan 1998, BIGFRICK wrote:
: > The only reason anyone wants to ban a card now that wizards has changed the way
: > they playtest are little newbies that get beat by better players and pick a
: > card out of the good player's deck that hurt them the most and say that it
: > should be banned. That is the reason for this thread.
: >
: >
: Maybe they should change the name of this thread to: BigFrick is a
: dumbass.
It's been done before. After you accept the undeniable truth of the
statement, it devolves into saying the same thing over and over.
BIGFRICK
Ok then guys, give me a good reason to ban the scroll. I have sort of revised
my opinion of it to include the veteran players that can' tget four cursed
scrolls as other people who want to ban it. Hell why not ban all cards that
let you deal two damage repeatedly, like creatures, ban all creatures. Put
very simply, so you guys can understand, only an idiot would ban this card in
consturcted play. It has no huge power potential, and it relys on cards in
hand to do anything. It is virtually useless if you have two different cards
in your hand. So just stop whining and put shatterstorm in your SB's and say
fuck the scroll I don't need it.
Simon Connell
BIGFRICK <bigf...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980131212...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> Ok then guys, give me a good reason to ban the scroll. I have sort of
revised
> my opinion of it to include the veteran players that can' tget four
cursed
> scrolls as other people who want to ban it. Hell why not ban all cards
that
> let you deal two damage repeatedly, like creatures, ban all creatures.
Put
> very simply, so you guys can understand, only an idiot would ban this
card in
> consturcted play. It has no huge power potential, and it relys on cards
in
> hand to do anything.
> It is virtually useless if you have two different cards
> in your hand.
Still a 50/50 chance, same as Frenetic Efreet or Mana Crypt, and that's
pretty good.
> So just stop whining and put shatterstorm in your SB's and say
> fuck the scroll I don't need it.
you need to know that there is more than one group out there seeking to
ban the scroll. Like many others, I believe the scroll should stay in Type
II, where it's not overpowered, and there are lots of ways to deal with it,
cards which fit the main deck as well as the sideboard.
However, in the Tempest-only constructed environment, at the moment,
there are very few ways to deal with the scroll, and it is extremely
powerful as so many creatures have 1 or 2 toughness. There have been
several other arguments to this effect posted, all more lengthy and
eloquent than mine.
Also, many players preparing for TE-constructed tourneys are finding that
4 Cursed Scroll seems to go in EVERY deck. One of the reasons the DCI ban
cards is when they start showing up in decks that have 'no business having
them there', like Black Vise, 4 of which were just chucked in most Type II
decks when it was legal. Given, CS does not fit in all decks, like
counterdecks or similar, but 4 CS seems to be a feature of most TE decks.
Perhaps your description of those who want to ban CS in Standard is close
to fair. (But not quite :). However, think about the power of CS in Tempest
where it's much harder to get rid of.
sHc
Wanderer
BIGFRICK wrote:
>
> Ok then guys, give me a good reason to ban the scroll. I have sort of revised
> my opinion of it to include the veteran players that can' tget four cursed
> scrolls as other people who want to ban it. Hell why not ban all cards that
> let you deal two damage repeatedly, like creatures, ban all creatures. Put
> very simply, so you guys can understand, only an idiot would ban this card in
> consturcted play. It has no huge power potential, and it relys on cards in
> hand to do anything. It is virtually useless if you have two different cards
> fuck the scroll I don't need it.
Second,in looking at banning Cursed Scroll,it's not reasonable in
Extended-the Extended metagame as a whole has become such that some sort
of artifact/enchantment removal is required. Winter
Orbs,Propaganda,Cursed Scroll...if you want to beat control,you gotta
have it.
In Tempest constructed,it becomes far tougher. Tempest lacks artifact
removal in a big way,making Scrolls a no-brainer. It's rarely hard to
drop to one or two cards in hand,making the Scroll potent-it's as much a
boon to active decks as it is control ones. Looking seriously at
removing it from use in Tempest constructed should wait though,at least
until we get a look at Stronghold-which IMHO should feature more methods
to kill artifacts,negating the whole argument entirely.
-Paul T.
Who has 4 scrolls,and is currently having more fun with a Bury Barney
deck instead. :)
BIGFRICK
So you are basically agreeing with me, even though you did not come right out
and admit it. Thank you friend.
>Looking seriously at removing it(cursed scroll) from use in Tempest
ODariani
there isn't time to wait for sronghold to enter the game. pt la is early
febuary (i believe) and stronghold won't appear until march, let alone be
legal. basically, the people wanting scroll banned are attempting to create
diversity in a field which does not allow it. the scroll immediatelty damns so
many deck ideas that it is a design/play constraint in the format. every who
has playtested tempest only agrees that scroll is, at the least, dominant and,
at worst, really, really broken.
while you can say, its easy to deal with, just disenchant it etc, you have to
look at the big picture. should magic be a gamesay of i have this card, do you
have counter card x? no? well, you lose. that is very impractical. it
becomes a battle of reactive cards versus active cards in an environment where
the active card (scroll) is much more powerful. that is imbalanced, which is
bad.
players, especially higher level players, easily recognize the potential to
abuse cards, for examples we only need look back to wall of boom. the cursed
scroll is too easy to cast, too hard to deal with and too powerful to ignore
in tempest only. the outcome is simple and predictable: cursed scroll and
anti scroll decks will be both prominent and dominant at pt la. cursed scroll
offers too large of an advantage in tempest's small creature oriented
enviornment to pass up. it will be the card of the tournament.
when players, especially those known for their strategic play rather than their
whining/yelling ability call attention to something like the scroll in tempest,
we need to listen. i don't know tom guevin but i have never heard a negative
remark attached to his reputation. he seems to have put a lot of thought into
his argument and backs it with cited, proven examples and common sense, as well
as magic trends from the past couple of years. i have to agree that scroll
should be banned in tempest only. perhaps with the advent of stronghold and
the next expansion, the scroll will fade into the backgroud.
to sum up.
if it cannot be controlled, it cannot be ignored. if it cannot be ignored or
controlled, it will kill you.
omeed.
Morgan Lewis
ODariani wrote:
> i have to agree that scroll
> should be banned in tempest only. perhaps with the advent of stronghold and
> the next expansion, the scroll will fade into the backgroud.
>
I haven't had enough experience in this format to say one way or the
other. Still, one could hope that the problem will be rectified with
Stronghold.
> to sum up.
> if it cannot be controlled, it cannot be ignored. if it cannot be ignored or
> controlled, it will kill you.
>
> omeed.
Well, there is another option to controlling it. Out run it. Do more
damage during a turn to your opponent than the scroll is doing to you.
Unfortunately, this isn't necessarily a very easy thing to do (except
for burn), so I'd have to agree with you for right now. Ban (or
preferably restrict--one by itself isn't game-breaking, I don't
think--let me know if I'm wrong) until Stronghold enters the scene.
Then unrestrict, and see what happens.
Morgan
ODariani
>I haven't had enough experience in this format to say one way or the
>other.
trust me, it is very powerful. tempset is dominated by the scroll.
>Well, there is another option to controlling it.
how? you can do it in type II, with geddon, orb etc. in tempest only, every
deck has 4 scrolls and 4 artifact removal cards (minimum). thus the only
methods of control are nullified. counters, in that the scroll is too fast and
static orb, in that every deck will be able to destroy it. that's the
essential problem with the card in tempest constructed.
>Out run it.
another good idea, but how, again? your only option is too play fast and
either hope your opponent isn't packing scrolls (right), doesn't draw them, or
you have your anti scroll cards in hand (which slows you down considerably).
>Do more
>damage during a turn to your opponent than the scroll is doing to you.
once again, how? you may be able to out damage your opponent for two or three
turns, but once the scroll start whittling away at your creatures, you will be
hard pressed to keep up an offense. the problem is, tempest, unlike mirage
block, is a weenie oriented enviornment. the scroll kills almost every
creature in tempest quickly and efficently. the few exceptions to this rule
are all but unplayable creatures (like magmasaur). granted, there are a few
good creatures that are out of scroll range (the angels), that does not justify
its presence in the enviornment.
>Ban (or
>preferably restrict--one by itself isn't game-breaking, I don't
>think--let me know if I'm wrong) until Stronghold enters the scene.
i don't want to see scroll restricted, then we go back to the luck factor. if
it is banned, the scroll's restriant of the enviorment will cease, allowing
more variety in the decktypes. when stronghold comes out, if it is evident
that the scroll is no longer an overpowered card (the introduction of more
efficent artifact removal/hosing), then i will be the first person calling for
its return. until then, i think it is best left to extended and type II.
thank you for taking an objective look at the problem. i hope i have addressed
all of your points in an agreeable fashion.
omeed.
Scott Thomson
While I won't be attending PTLA, after seeing what Cursed Scroll does
in extended, where there are MANY ways to deal with it, I can only
imagine how much more dominant it will be (if it can be). Today, at the
PTQ in Indy, from what I saw, at least 5 decks ran 4 CS, disenchants,
Aura of Silence, and Uktabi's, (one counter-post lost in first round of
final 8, didn't see the other 2 decks) and yet, the semi-final I watched
was won by the Cursed Scroll. So I can only imagine, aside from blue
bounce decks, most all PTLA decks will be W/R/G for the Disenchants,
Verdigris, and Aftershocks (can't remember the other anti-artifact).
IMHO it should be banned just so there's a little variety involved.
Seeing everyone playing the same basic deck is a little bit boring,
don't you think?
Rana
Wanderer
Morgan Lewis wrote:
>
> ODariani wrote:
> > i have to agree that scroll
> > should be banned in tempest only. perhaps with the advent of stronghold and
> > the next expansion, the scroll will fade into the backgroud.
> >
>
> Stronghold.
>
> > to sum up.
> > if it cannot be controlled, it cannot be ignored. if it cannot be ignored or
> > controlled, it will kill you.
> >
> > omeed.
>
> damage during a turn to your opponent than the scroll is doing to you.
> preferably restrict--one by itself isn't game-breaking, I don't
> think--let me know if I'm wrong) until Stronghold enters the scene.
>
> Morgan
getting shot by it instead. Tempest actually seems to encourage emptying
your hand-speed kills very well. The Scrolls only encourage
that,combined with the lack of "sweeper" cards.
-Paul T.
Palo0303
Random thought: Anyone **not** going to PTLA b/c of this Cursed Scroll
business? The card must cost an armannaleg by now...
Cedric.
Owen Cole
In article <34ca7...@130.166.1.64>, scott johns
<hbmu...@huey.csun.edu> writes
>
>The following lists the reasons this card needs to be banned.
>
<snipped all damn good points
>
>Some of you may be saying, this is just Tom Guevin on one of his
>Frenetic Efreet tirades. Well I'm not the only one saying that Cursed
>Scroll should be banned for Tempest constructed. Here are some clipping
>to what some of the top players and judges on the pro tour have been
>saying about the scroll:
>
>Erik Lauer: "The randomness of this card is one of the highest ever
>(i.e. a hymn or frenetic averages two random accesses -- while the
>cursed scroll sits out there for potentially many turns), the power
>level is the highest. Ancient runes is not a real solution to the
>problem ...", "...last constructed PT they changed the rules 3 days
>before the PT ; I think they can still make a Feb 1 announcement that
>"this card has to go" -- it is obviously "the card" in the set."
>
>Darrell Breese: "As a Level 2 judge and a tourney organizer (Alaska
>PTQ's, Regionals, etc.) I have to say I agree with your points regarding
>the strength of Cursed Scroll in Tempest constructed play. At a recent
>tourney in my shop the top 8 decks had 24 Cursed Scrolls in
>them.(Tempest Constructed Tourney)."
>
<snip> All valid opinions.
>But what about the logistics of such a late banning. A few players,
>like Peter Radjonic have expressed concern about months of playtesting
>going down the drain. To these players I'd argue that if the Scroll is
>banned February 1st, you will have over one month to adapt your decks to
>the new balance of power. A couple players have commented that banning
>scroll would make blue decks go wild. I'd argue that the environment is
>balanced enough and has enough hosers that with metagame adjustments you
>should be able to handle any deck.
>
>This cursed scroll fiasco again brings into question exactly how wizards
>should handle bannings and restrictions. Wizards should rework their
>schedule. The fact that no one spoke up about the scroll before Jan 1
>was because no one had been testing that format. This is demonstrative
>of the Scroll problem in general and Wizard's ban/restricted schedule in
>particular. The game is centered around
>the cards, and all aspects of the game, from Pro-Tours, to
>banned/restricted lists, to release dates, should center around the
>environments. For example, if a set comes out in January, the next
>banned restricted date should not be until March, when the environment
>as had some time to settle a bit. Furthermore, there should be another
>banned restricted date at least one whole month before Pro Tour events.
>None of this last minute Abeyance errata.
>
>An alternate solution was suggested by Rob Dougherty - a level 3 judge
>and owner of Your Move Games in Boston. He hinted about a potential
>compromise - enforcing the rulling Cursed Scroll to not be able to
>target an opponent. This back door solution has merit, and would
>definitely solve much of the problem. The logistics of this solution
>are similar to the abeyance problem - when should the rule go into
>effect, and how can you be sure all the judges and players get notified
>in time.
>-Tom Guevin
>tgu...@ctron.com
I agree entirley, as a Lvl II D.C.I. Judge, in the U.K. I recently
flunked out at the PTQ LA Qualifiers, but I Think that in Type II let
alone 'tempest Only' C.S. is BA-ROKEN, of my last 5 tournements, 4 have
been won by decks containing at least 2 cursed Scrolls.
Te one that didn't I controversially ruled as D'Angelo from 2 days
previous to the tourney date ( I read Friday night), had been errated to
say couldn't target opponent.
On speaking to Wizards day morning, I was advised that I should never
have made that judgement, and cursed scroll may target a opponent in a
duel. What the F?*K is going on with wizards, surely they can spot a
card that will dominate a format after playtesting, let alone after
several months of tourney play, and they still don't ban it, what is
going on ?!?
Every man dies, not every man truly lives
Keith Christopher
>
> I agree entirley, as a Lvl II D.C.I. Judge, in the U.K. I recently
> flunked out at the PTQ LA Qualifiers, but I Think that in Type II let
> alone 'tempest Only' C.S. is BA-ROKEN, of my last 5 tournements, 4 have
No it's not broken. It's a matter of choice, there's too much to stop
it. disenchant disempower shatter shatterstorm detonate nullrod. . . it
also takes some time to get the scroll setup. one mana to cast so on
1st turn it can take 2 more turns to activate with a 1 in 5 chance of it
hitting by turn 3 (if it's land-scroll then land land ) or a 33+1/3
chance if it's land-scroll land-mogg land-mogg ) so by then either
you've got something or mana screwed. I don't think it's broken. It's a
very nice card as was hymn, but I don't think broken. I would recommend
decks that are designed to come alive by turn 4, but then again
shouldn't they all be. (except pebbles.)
--
** Be sure and remove the _nospam_ from my
** email address before replying !
Keith Christopher
---
PHH Corp.
UNIX SYSTEMS ADMIN
---
The future masters of technology will have to be
lighthearted and intelligent. The machine easily
masters the grim and the dumb.
--- Marshall McLuhan
Wanderer
Keith Christopher wrote:
>
> >
> > I agree entirley, as a Lvl II D.C.I. Judge, in the U.K. I recently
> > flunked out at the PTQ LA Qualifiers, but I Think that in Type II let
> > alone 'tempest Only' C.S. is BA-ROKEN, of my last 5 tournements, 4 have
>
> No it's not broken. It's a matter of choice, there's too much to stop
> it. disenchant disempower shatter shatterstorm detonate nullrod. . .
II or Extended. Thanks.
-Paul T.