Mana Drain: Why?
Stephen Schwab
To all,
On WotC's home page, I found the comment that "the entire R&D team
would have to be hit by a bus before we would reprint Mana Drain."
Although I rack my brain for hours, I cannot see what is so
devastatingly unbalancing about the card, or why it is the most
expensive uncommon on the market (at @35.00; this doesn't count Arabian
Nights "uncommon" rares like Juzam Djinn). If anyone knows why Mana
Drain is so valuable, or how it was abused to elicit this comment,
please reply.
David
John D. Thomas
Stephen Schwab wrote:
(SNIP)
> If anyone knows why Mana Drain is so valuable, or how it was abused to elicit this comment,
> please reply.
Well, let's look at a cost/benefit comparison of 3 Cards.
1. Mana Drain
2. Drain Power
3. Counter Spell
A. Casting cost - All UU.
B. Mana Drain and Counter Spell - Counter Target Spell.
C. Drain Power and Mana Drain - Give you Mana essentially taken from
your opponent. (DP's is the color taken and MD is colorless.)
Okay, enough of the similarities/comparisons.
The reason that Mana Drain is so powerful is that it:
1. Denies your opponent a resource. You make a one-for-one trade to
stop their spell.
2. Takes away time from your opponent thereby giving you advantage. AKA
he wasted his time tapping the land for whatever it was and you stopped
it.
3. Gives you time/resource advantage - You don't have to tap X mana on
your next main phase to do whatever it is that you want to do.
4. Since you're playing Mana Drain anyway, this probably stands to
reason that you're playing other countermagics. Mana Drain allows you
to cast something for 'free' and use your valuable resources so that you
can back it up with countermagic or do other things.
(This also gives you more mana than you have so that you can cast
something that you would not normally be able to cast - ie: Huge
Fireball, Mirror Universe, whatever....)
Those are the basic reasons that I can think of off of the top of my
head. If anyone else has others then I would welcome comment.
Pete Thompson
Stephen Schwab <stev...@inct.net> wrote:
>Although I rack my brain for hours, I cannot see what is so
>devastatingly unbalancing about the card, or why it is the most
>expensive uncommon on the market (at @35.00; this doesn't count Arabian
To give you an idea: Mana Drain only costs UU to cast. It doesn't
even have a drawback to it to make it any worse than a
counterspell.
To take this further, the mana goes into your pool at
the start of YOUR next main phase. That means if you
cast it during an opponent's turn, you get the mana
during your upkeep before you untap anything.
(Actually a more balanced version would be if it
said "at the start of the NEXT main phase" so you'd
be more likely to take mana burn... even so it's still
unbalanced)
So you get mega mana especially if the opponent
plays an X casting spell such as fireball, etc...
Max Hufnagel
Pete Thompson <petert...@somewhere.com> wrote in article
<6i3g6c$dvv$1...@supernews.com>...
> Stephen Schwab <stev...@inct.net> wrote:
>
<snip>
> To give you an idea: Mana Drain only costs UU to cast. It doesn't
> even have a drawback to it to make it any worse than a
> counterspell.
>
> To take this further, the mana goes into your pool at
> the start of YOUR next main phase. That means if you
> cast it during an opponent's turn, you get the mana
> during your upkeep before you untap anything.
<snip>
"Start of your main phase" does not mean during your upkeep
before you untap anything. Main phase occurs right after the
draw phase.
Mana Drain is "strictly better" than a Counterspell. It costs the
same to cast, and the extra mana gained is almost always an
advantage -- it is rare to take mana burn from it (assuming you
have some kind of sink in your deck; the Book, Whispers,etc.)
Essence
Here's the situation.
You've got 5 mana down. At least three are islands.
Your opponent, with a few Llanowar Elves and such, is casting a Crash of
Rhinos.
You tap 2 islands, and Mana Drain.
On your next turn, having denied him a huge threat, you then proceed to use
his mana in conjunction with yours to cast a Polar Kraken on the sixth
turn. Two turns later, your opponent has died a horrible death, his only
threat kept at bay by the same spell that unleashed the unholy terror that
ripped him a new butthole.
It's just a smidge overpowered.
<grin>
Essence
David Sanders
I have to kind of agree with the original author. I have seen both
Mana Drain and Counterspell in action, and while Mana Drain CAN
be devastating if exploited fully, it can also often be a liability. If you
really *have* to counter that Fireball or whatever, and don't have
anything to use that colorless mana on next turn, you're taking burn.
I'd call taking damage to counter a spell a disadvantage.
Of course, more often than not, you do have *some* way of using most
of the mana you get, and often you can use it all. I would say that
Mana Drain *is* generally more powerful than Counterspell. But I
don't think it's THAT broken. There are definitely times when an
opponent announces a spell, I look at my hand and desperately wish
that the Mana Drain in my hand really *was* a Counterspell...
Dave
any...@earthlink.net
Stephen Schwab wrote:
>
> To all,
>
> On WotC's home page, I found the comment that "the entire R&D team
> would have to be hit by a bus before we would reprint Mana Drain."
> devastatingly unbalancing about the card, or why it is the most
> expensive uncommon on the market (at @35.00; this doesn't count Arabian
> Drain is so valuable, or how it was abused to elicit this comment,
> please reply.
>
I think the most famous use was to mana drain something on the third
turn and then mind twist for six cards to get a scepter lock. See the
Weissman(Did I spell it right?) deck.
--
邢 唷��
Brian Morgan
>> If anyone knows why Mana Drain is so valuable, or how it was
>> abused to elicit this comment,
>> please reply.
and heres a totally subjective story to go with all the
solid analysis:
you have an old weissman style control deck
and you're playing a newbie in the first round of
a small local type I. you wrestle around for a few
turns and just as the newbie starts to realize that
thallids arent going to work in type I, you mana drain
away his giant thallid lord or whatever. unfortunately,
the mana drain you use is the 1 *italian*
drain in your deck. he's never seen the card
before and so he asks "so whats that card do?" and
now you have to explain it to him. imagine it. theres
no way hes going to believe you when you tell him:
me: "well, you're not going to believe this, but - not
only does it counter your spell but i get all the
mana you used."
newbie: "uh, so you have to use the mana now? thats
stupid. you'll take mana burn"
me: "no, on my next turn i get the mana. to
cast a serra or a jayemdae or something."
newbie: "judge!!"
happened to me once upon a time.
- b
ps. on the flip side:
opp: "how much life?"
me: "17. and one card"
opp: "fireball you for 17?"
me: "grrr. mana drain."
opp: "go."
me: draw felwar stone.
"grrr. play stone. burn for 16. go."
opp: "hehheheh."
Glenn Olson
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:49:55 GMT, petert...@somewhere.com (Pete
Thompson) wrote:
>Stephen Schwab <stev...@inct.net> wrote:
>
>>Although I rack my brain for hours, I cannot see what is so
>>devastatingly unbalancing about the card, or why it is the most
>>expensive uncommon on the market (at @35.00; this doesn't count Arabian
>
>To give you an idea: Mana Drain only costs UU to cast. It doesn't
>even have a drawback to it to make it any worse than a
>counterspell.
Not quite accurate.
It's secondary-aspect is something that *can* be a disadvantage -
forced mana that you can't spend causes mana-burn. However, it is far
more likely to be a tremendous advantage.
>To take this further, the mana goes into your pool at
>the start of YOUR next main phase. That means if you
>cast it during an opponent's turn, you get the mana
>during your upkeep before you untap anything.
Er... no. You get it at during your main phase.
THat comes after both the upkeep, and the untap phases.
(Just a minor nit-pick.)
>(Actually a more balanced version would be if it
>said "at the start of the NEXT main phase" so you'd
>be more likely to take mana burn... even so it's still
>unbalanced)
Actually, that wording would still result in it playing the same.
MAYBE if it said "at the start of your next upkeep."
Due to Shaw's lack of policy on spam, no email
sent from that system will be read until they
review their position.
n
: On WotC's home page, I found the comment that "the entire R&D team
: would have to be hit by a bus before we would reprint Mana Drain."
: Although I rack my brain for hours, I cannot see what is so
: devastatingly unbalancing about the card, or why it is the most
: expensive uncommon on the market (at @35.00; this doesn't count Arabian
: Nights "uncommon" rares like Juzam Djinn). If anyone knows why Mana
: Drain is so valuable, or how it was abused to elicit this comment,
: please reply.
: David
Say I drain your 3rd turn Erhnam Djinn and cast my own 3rd turn Mahamoti.
When this happens I would rarely have to worry about draining a large
fireball later on.
Does anybody remember that you could nova penticle away the burn back in
the days...
Tolun
>>To take this further, the mana goes into your pool at
>>the start of YOUR next main phase. That means if you
>>cast it during an opponent's turn, you get the mana
>>during your upkeep before you untap anything.
>Er... no. You get it at during your main phase.
>THat comes after both the upkeep, and the untap phases.
>(Just a minor nit-pick.)
Thanx for picking it for me, I couldn't think of a tactful way to say
"don't you know the order of phases during a turn?" Come to think of
it, why should tact matter? :)
>>(Actually a more balanced version would be if it
>>said "at the start of the NEXT main phase" so you'd
>>be more likely to take mana burn... even so it's still
>>unbalanced)
>Actually, that wording would still result in it playing the same.
>MAYBE if it said "at the start of your next upkeep."
Well, if you were forced to use it to counter a spell during YOUR
turn, you'd then get the mana at the beginning of the next Main Phase,
which would most likely be your opponent's turn. Slightly limits the
amount of things you can sink mana into...
Tolun
Marc Sims
: To take this further, the mana goes into your pool at
: the start of YOUR next main phase. That means if you
: cast it during an opponent's turn, you get the mana
: during your upkeep before you untap anything.
: (Actually a more balanced version would be if it
: said "at the start of the NEXT main phase" so you'd
: be more likely to take mana burn... even so it's still
: unbalanced)
THis paragraph makes no sense. Somehow, the main phase got turned in to
the upkeep, which is before anything untaps???
--
Marc Sims
marc...@hwcn.org
"Follow your dreams. You can achieve your goals. I'm living proof.
Beefcake. BEEFCAKE!"
Frederick Scott
(TO REPLY VIA E-MAIL, STRIP 'XYXYX' FROM THE ADDRESS)
stev...@inct.net writes:
> On WotC's home page, I found the comment that "the entire R&D team
>would have to be hit by a bus before we would reprint Mana Drain."
>Although I rack my brain for hours, I cannot see what is so
>devastatingly unbalancing about the card, or why it is the most
>expensive uncommon on the market (at @35.00; this doesn't count Arabian
>Nights "uncommon" rares like Juzam Djinn). If anyone knows why Mana
>Drain is so valuable, or how it was abused to elicit this comment,
>please reply.
Well, some people already think Counterspell's broken: for UU counter
anything in creation (except a Karvek's Torch which you have pay 2 extra
to counter or a Scraggy) that isn't a land. At least, accept that
Counterspell is considered powerful if not broken.
(If you don't, you just don't like permission and you'll never accept
that Mana Drain is powerful anyway.)
OK, now we have Counterspell PLUS get mana back, on your ensuing main phase
when it's often useful for plopping down a Jayemdae Tomb or Disrupting
Scepter or powering something without cost to your usual mana. For
other colors, mmmmmmOK its nice, but for blue permission decks its a
godsend. "Gosh, I can play my Tome and not tap out so I can counter
your Disenchant too?!?! (has orgasm)"
It can be marginal thing or even backfire (that Fireball/mana-burn thing
someone mentioned does happen occasionally) but overall, Mana Drains are
almost inevitiably an improvement over Counterspells. They're also nice
in that if you think Counterspells useful to so many blue decks, you can
imagine how often people would use more than 4 Counterspells, if allowed.
Owning Mana Drains basically permits that.
Now, compare Mana Drains to Moxen. Moxen are just basic lands that you
play multiple of (and alongside your one land) in a single turn. They're
easier to remove than basic lands except they don't get Armageddoned.
That sounds nice but not crucial. Not $150 or $200 worth of "nice". Yet
people pay that much just to use them in the few T1 tournaments that are
still around. Why? Because it's _pure_ advantage. There's almost no
drawback to Moxen compared to their benefit. The same is true of Mana Drains.
There's a few drawbacks to them in a very technical sense, but for the most
part, they're pure advantage over an already powerful spell.
Fred
Steve Klein
was this original thread serious?
i mean, chuckle, chuckle, mana drain is too powerful, as is moat, mirror universe,
black lotus, serra angel, timewalk, the moxes, etc.