Library of Alexandria - Should it be banned?
bke...@mailhost.epix.net
While it hasn't been discussed here for the past couple months, alot of people
seemed to think that Library of Alexandria is the next big target for banning.
The topic interested me, and I'd like to see what most people have to say
about it now. A few thoughts:
A.Library of Alexandria is one of the most broken cards in the game.
Right up there with Ancestral Recall, followed by a few other biggies like
Time Walk (which IMHO isn't *that* bad), Twister, and maybe Moxen/Lotus.
Personally, I think the Demonic Tutor is also just as wicked a spoiler too,
but that's another story.
B.Unlike Mind Twist, which it was previously compared to during the course of
its own banning, LoA gives you a positive advantage as opposed to giving your
opponent a negative one. It's sorta like with Mind Twist, "You Lose" but with
LoA, "I Win".
C.How bad is the Library compared to the other ones and if they banned it,
wouldn't the other have to follow? It seems to me that Ancestral Recall has a
slight edge in the Brokenness department over the Library, but why has it so
seldom been suggested to ban AR? Could it be the Price Tags? (Ancestral
Recall-$92, Library of Alexandria $40)
D.I thought I heard that WoTC stated they had given up trying to fix Type I.
Further note, there will be no changes to the Type I Legal List until October
1st, which means we'd know about it in September.
Is the Library really going to get banned? Is it necessary?
Personally, I would hope not because it's one of my favorite cards in the
game, and alot of people here really love the Library, so banning it would
just piss them off. It's usually only useful in the early game, and very often
it shows up late so I have to just throw it down to use as colorless mana.
But on the first turn, it's amazing. But is it so bad that it requires
banning? True, the one with the LoA will have the resource advantage, but
isn't it the same with so many other cards? ie I have a Serra out and you
don't, therefore I have the advantage. I cast Hymn to Tourach and make you
discard, now I have the advantage.
Well, just trying to generate some thoughtful discussion. So long,
Brian
Monica Severa
>
>
>While it hasn't been discussed here for the past couple months, alot of people
>seemed to think that Library of Alexandria is the next big target for banning.
>The topic interested me, and I'd like to see what most people have to say
>about it now. A few thoughts:
Actually, I think that it would suck, but it might be a wise choice.
>A.Library of Alexandria is one of the most broken cards in the game.
>Right up there with Ancestral Recall,
AR isn't half as bad.
followed by a few other biggies like
>Time Walk (which IMHO isn't *that* bad),
It isn't.
Twister, and maybe Moxen/Lotus.
Are you going by price here? Timetwister, Moxen, and Lotus aren't nearly that bad.
>Personally, I think the Demonic Tutor is also just as wicked a spoiler too,
>but that's another story.
It's not. It doesn't give you a card advantage over your opponent, it just gives you really good luck for 2 mana.
>B.Unlike Mind Twist, which it was previously compared to during the course of
>its own banning, LoA gives you a positive advantage as opposed to giving your
>opponent a negative one. It's sorta like with Mind Twist, "You Lose" but with
>LoA, "I Win".
Except for the fact that LoA is slower, yes.
>C.How bad is the Library compared to the other ones and if they banned it,
>wouldn't the other have to follow?
LoA is the most powerful. No other spoiler comes near, and I can't really say that we should have candidates for banning at all. It =
makes no sense to ban every card that someone decides to abuse. It makes more sense to try to come up with a counter to it.
It seems to me that Ancestral Recall has a
>slight edge in the Brokenness department over the Library,
Actually, no. Sure, AR gives you a boost, but LoA has a long term effect that becomes more and more apparent over the course of the =
game. Think of AR as a Dark Ritual, and LoA as a Finhorn Elder.
but why has it so
>seldom been suggested to ban AR? Could it be the Price Tags? (Ancestral
>Recall-$92, Library of Alexandria $40)
Price tags have nothing to do with it.
>D.I thought I heard that WoTC stated they had given up trying to fix Type I.
As they should. Since fixing it totally will only make it become Type II, which a lot of people don't enjoy as much as Type I, why t=
ry? They should just unrestrict Balance and Fork, and unban Chaos Orb, Channel, Falling Star, and Mind Twist and just let people pla=
y the damn game.
>Further note, there will be no changes to the Type I Legal List until October
>1st, which means we'd know about it in September.
>Is the Library really going to get banned? Is it necessary?
No, it's not neccessary, but I can see where people might want it to happen.
>Personally, I would hope not because it's one of my favorite cards in the
>game, and alot of people here really love the Library, so banning it would
>just piss them off.
I agree.
It's usually only useful in the early game, and very often
>it shows up late so I have to just throw it down to use as colorless mana.
>But on the first turn, it's amazing. But is it so bad that it requires
>banning?
Maybe they could just add errata, like, if you draw a card, take one damage.
-Matt
Daniel Gray
>While it hasn't been discussed here for the past couple months, alot of people
>seemed to think that Library of Alexandria is the next big target for banning.
>The topic interested me, and I'd like to see what most people have to say
>about it now. A few thoughts:
>A.Library of Alexandria is one of the most broken cards in the game.
>Right up there with Ancestral Recall, followed by a few other biggies like
>Time Walk (which IMHO isn't *that* bad), Twister, and maybe Moxen/Lotus.
>Personally, I think the Demonic Tutor is also just as wicked a spoiler too,
>but that's another story.
It is broken yes, and is probably more badly broken than any of the
"major" spoilers except, perhaps, Ancestral Recall. It is not, however, an
immediate "I win" card like Channel, Mind Twist, and (until recently) Time
Vault, the only three cards thusfar banned for non-rules, non-tournament
environment reasons. Like the other major spoilers(5ML, Time Walk,
Timetwister, Ancestral, and Demonic Tutor) still allowed, the Library does not
immediately and directly win you the game, and this seems, so far, to be the
major criterion for which the DC considers banning cards other than rules or
ante. This is, at least, one good argument AGAINST banning.
>B.Unlike Mind Twist, which it was previously compared to during the course of
>its own banning, LoA gives you a positive advantage as opposed to giving your
>opponent a negative one. It's sorta like with Mind Twist, "You Lose" but with
>LoA, "I Win".
Right. However, positive card advantage, where you draw more cards, is
far less effective than negative card advantage(discard) against an opponent.
Drawing more cards simply presents the drawer with more options, which,
while certainly critical for winning games, doesn't guarantee victory. Forcing
an opponent to lose his/her own hand, however, is directly winning you the
game-- an opponent with fewer or no cards has fewer or no options, and thus
anything you do will go unchecked. Mind Twist was so bad that one card could
enable the Twister to win with a single Llanowar Elf, as the opponent really
couldn't do anything about it.
>C.How bad is the Library compared to the other ones and if they banned it,
>wouldn't the other have to follow? It seems to me that Ancestral Recall has a
>slight edge in the Brokenness department over the Library, but why has it so
>seldom been suggested to ban AR? Could it be the Price Tags? (Ancestral
>Recall-$92, Library of Alexandria $40)
I very much doubt price tags have much to do with it, especially
since, at least around here, Ancestral Recall is pretty much steady, but the
Library has begun rising in value again. Ancestral Recall, while probably
equally broken, is a one-shot 2-card advantage giver(barring graveyard
raiding, recursion, & Fork). The Library, once down, is reusable at least once
per turn, and the supposed "disadvantage" of requiring 7 cards in hand is
virtually meaningless in an environment with so many mass draw effects, and
one which is dominated by control decks, who often hold 7 cards in hand.
Of the rest of the major spoilers, none really provide such a nice,
reusable card advantage. Sure, Moxen & Sol Ring give you a nice mana
advantage, but this can be mitigated either by your not having any cards to
use the mana for, or by various other forms of fast mana(Dark Ritual,
Fastbond, and even the "slow" fast mana like Fellwar Stones, Jeweled Amulets,
and stuff like Nature's Lore). Both Demonic Tutor and Time Walk provide an
even one card for card effect, although both have significantly more useful
effects(getting the exact card you need or the extra turn). Both Timetwister
and its lesser cousin Wheel of Fortune provide absolutely no card advantage
over an opponent(although they, of course, have the added advantage of all
spells in that you get to choose the most helpful time to cast them).
It's reusability for virtually no cost is a reason FOR banning Library
of Alexandria, and it is the one I hear most often.
>D.I thought I heard that WoTC stated they had given up trying to fix Type I.
>Further note, there will be no changes to the Type I Legal List until October
>1st, which means we'd know about it in September.
>Is the Library really going to get banned? Is it necessary?
Well, they obviously haven't given up trying to tweak Type I. I very
much doubt there's a lot they can do to "fix" Type I, otherwise it becomes
Type II or Type 1.5. They've just changed the restricted list, and went out of
their way to errata Time Vault so people could use it again. There's obvious
interest on the part of the DC in improving the Type I play environment as
much as possible. There's still a great amount of player support for the
format. While Type II, at least around here, draws more players, Type I still
draws a statistically significant number of players.
Maybe the Library will be banned come September, maybe not. It
certainly hasn't endured the hue and cry on this newsgroup that preceded the
banning of Mind Twist. There are good reasons both for and against banning the
thing. I personally don't care one way or another at the moment. Since I don't
play Type I a lot anymore, it really doesn't matter to me, and when I do play,
it's been quite a long time since I was harshly wronged by the Library.
>Personally, I would hope not because it's one of my favorite cards in the
>game, and alot of people here really love the Library, so banning it would
>just piss them off. It's usually only useful in the early game, and very often
>it shows up late so I have to just throw it down to use as colorless mana.
>But on the first turn, it's amazing. But is it so bad that it requires
>banning? True, the one with the LoA will have the resource advantage, but
>isn't it the same with so many other cards? ie I have a Serra out and you
>don't, therefore I have the advantage. I cast Hymn to Tourach and make you
>discard, now I have the advantage.
It is an interesting card, especially since there's a place on one of
the mythical planes of Dominia that has the exact same name as a place on
Earth :) The Library does decrease in utilty as the game progresses assuming
one is playing an active deck. If one plays a reactive, slow, controlling
deck(like "The Deck" or one of its many friends), the Library can still be
useful in the mid- to late game. Mass draw effects like Timetwister, Wheel of
Fortune, Braingeyser, and Ancestral Recall can also augment its beyond early
game utility.
You Serra/Hymn argument is a good one, but it's important to keep in
mind that card advantage(either positive or negative) is, in virtually every
deck, the MOST important type of advantage. The other major advantages-- mana,
creatures, damage, environmental control-- can all be easily mitigated. Land
can be destroyed or messed with, creatures can be removed or rendered useless,
damage can be altered by doing more cheap damage of by life gain,
environmental control, assuming you're not locked, can be side-stepped,
ignored, or removed. Card advantage is tougher. Most card drawing effects are
either restricted, expensive(Jayemdae Tome), or restrictive(things like Jalum
Tome, Land Tax, etc.); most discard effects(except Hymn to Tourach and the now
banned Mind Twist) are expensive or inefficient(like the Specter), and
virtually none(except the Specters & Scepter) are reusable. A Serra Angel can
easily be taken care of by any competant tournament deck. An opponent's
drawing 2 cards for every 1 you draw is more difficult to get around.
>Well, just trying to generate some thoughtful discussion. So long,
I hope this gets the ball rolling.
Dan Gray
> Brian
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel M. Gray
Department of History
University of California, Santa Barbara
Patrick Martin
: You Serra/Hymn argument is a good one, but it's important to keep in
: mind that card advantage(either positive or negative) is, in virtually every
: deck, the MOST important type of advantage. The other major advantages-- mana,
: creatures, damage, environmental control-- can all be easily mitigated. Land
: can be destroyed or messed with, creatures can be removed or rendered useless,
: damage can be altered by doing more cheap damage of by life gain,
: environmental control, assuming you're not locked, can be side-stepped,
: ignored, or removed. Card advantage is tougher. Most card drawing effects are
: either restricted, expensive(Jayemdae Tome), or restrictive(things like Jalum
: Tome, Land Tax, etc.); most discard effects(except Hymn to Tourach and the now
: banned Mind Twist) are expensive or inefficient(like the Specter), and
: virtually none(except the Specters & Scepter) are reusable. A Serra Angel can
: easily be taken care of by any competant tournament deck. An opponent's
: drawing 2 cards for every 1 you draw is more difficult to get around.
I have the solution...strip mine.
Almost any deck that is able to win should have 1 or more of these little
cards in it. Against so many decks this card is very dangerous...
As for banning it...it can think of many more cards I would ban first -
of course...the power blue.
patrick
Chance Harris
: C.How bad is the Library compared to the other ones and if they banned it,
: wouldn't the other have to follow? It seems to me that Ancestral Recall has a
: slight edge in the Brokenness department over the Library, but why has it so
: seldom been suggested to ban AR? Could it be the Price Tags? (Ancestral
: Recall-$92, Library of Alexandria $40)
I think LoA is much worse than AR. Think of your winning percetnage when
LoA is in your first 8 cards ... now think of your winning percentage when
AR is in your first 8 cards. I mean, I'm still really happy to see AR in
my opening hand, but it doesn't give me that feeling of "I won".
You use your AR and its done - at least until you Regrowth/Recall/Cane it.
LoA is there turn after turn, making sure that you draw twice as much
as your opponent.
------------------------------------------------
Politics is a conflict of interests masquerading
as a conflict of ideals.
- (poorly paraphrased?) Ambrose Bierce
------------------------------------------------
Chance Harris
cha...@coyote.sps.mot.com
#include<std_disclaimer.h>
Craig Sivils
You can't defend the library against a strip mine. With all the
recursion in type I, AR isn't a one shot thing. You can disrupt the
library's strategy by either LD spells, or by putting preasure on
their deck and getting them below 6 cards.
Library is very powerful, but I'd have to put AR ahead of it.
Craig
Jeff Hagerty
Timewalk... etc... The power allowed by playing these types of cards is
what makes Type I. So what if they are a little bit broke... Have
trouble with the Library? Strip mine it. Have trouble with Ancestral
Recall? Red Blast it. You want to talk about an incredibly powerful
card... think about that nasty white beastie known a Disenchant. For 2
mana you can kill Every single artifact or enchantment in the game.
That's power. But should it be banned. No.
Jeff Hagerty
For every action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction.
Clyde H Watson
: I'd much rather play against the library than against AR.
:
The Library of Alexandria is in all ways better than the 'Recall.
It distracts those Strip Mines from colored mana production and can
replace its initial card-slot many, many times. Its uses are as
vast as your deck and it gives a strong advantage to any deck it's
in, despite the color. A player with the LoA can be considered to
have a better initial chance of victory than a player without, despite
the skill of the players involved. It has been called the most powerful
card in Magic by many, though I personally prefer Alladin's Lamp (grin).
Should it be banned? Not until Timewalk is, or Balance.
Banning is an ugly thing, but worse still is haste. I personally would
say that the LoA is about 2 or 3 times worse than Mind Twist, but it
has a subtle nature compared to MT. People look at the horrid effects
a well-timed 'Twist can have on the game and judge it worse than the
5 or 6 (or MANY more, I'm being conservative) cards that the LoA can
give. The fact is, Mind Twist (and Channel, god, what a joke ripping
poor green's only attractive power card away) just shouldn't be banned
and neither should the Library. The only change I'd make is adding
the LoA to the 'owned by me' list and let it go at that.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
C. Everett Watson, Esq. cr...@titan.oit.umass.edu
Element of Collective Awareness
Luminary
Favorite artists: Maddocks, Hoover, Kane-Ferguson, Everingham, Menges,
Tedin, Kaja Foglio, Morrissey, Venters, Alexander, Benson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Liu
: I'd much rather play against the library than against AR.
:
: You can't defend the library against a strip mine. With all the
: recursion in type I, AR isn't a one shot thing. You can disrupt the
: library's strategy by either LD spells, or by putting preasure on
: their deck and getting them below 6 cards.
:
: Library is very powerful, but I'd have to put AR ahead of it.
:
: Craig
:
The way I see it, Ancestral Recall and Library of Alexandria are on the same
level (with the commonality of Strip Mine/card-denial). LoA is more risky,
but potentially MUCH nastier. Neither is as nasty as Timetwister, which,
in turn, is not nearly as nasty as Channel. :)
--
--Steve Internet: sl7...@u.cc.utah.edu
Peter M White
>I'd much rather play against the library than against AR.
>You can't defend the library against a strip mine. With all the
>recursion in type I, AR isn't a one shot thing. You can disrupt the
>library's strategy by either LD spells, or by putting preasure on
>their deck and getting them below 6 cards.
>Library is very powerful, but I'd have to put AR ahead of it.
The LoA is only crazy when drawn in your initial hand. If it appears
later, your hand can only easily jump back up to 7 cards with AR,
Wheel, or Twister. With the two high powered card drawers, your opponent
should have a real good shot at drawing a Strip Mine.
--Peter
p-w...@uiuc.edu
Thierry Tremblay
No way.
It is true that this card is powerfull (it is restricted to one for this
very reason). But in any tournament you'll encounter (sadly) tons of
land-destruction decks. I frequent tournament very frequently, and use
the LoA all the time... Only 1 in 5 games is it not destroyed, and then again,
it makes me play slower (i want to keep 7 cards in hand you know...), although
this is not an argument at the beginning of the game (I like to play 2 cards/turn
at the beginning), you end up casting much more than 2 cards a turn and the LoA
doesn't work anymore... Now don't tell me about timetwister (which is FAR stronger
than LoA) or wheel to reput 7 cards in hands, yep, you draw another cards...
So wheel gave you 7 cards, and LoA 1, wow! LoA is WAY too strong.
If you want to banish LoA, why not all mox, timetwister, fork, ... ? You would
end up with what is called a type-II tournament.
Then ban Balance, Wrath of god, armageddon, counterspells, serra, elves, forest,...
Thierry'
Jimmy McDonald
>just piss them off. It's usually only useful in the early game, and very often
>it shows up late so I have to just throw it down to use as colorless mana.
you can ancestral recall enough cards into your hand to make it useful midgame
you can timetwister the cards into your hand
you can wheel of fortune the cards into your hand
is it possibly the most broken card in the game..
yes.. but its not worth debating... because at all times there will always be
a card that is "the most broken".. if you keep banning cards.. its gonna come down to..
basic lands are broken. they dont cost anything to cast and they give you mana.. a lot like
a mox.. lets ban basic lands.. and all lands will be pain lands.. but they will all be
single color producers.
the bottom line is this..
type I is a complete mess anyway..
fixing it at this point is probably a waste of time.
type I is basically for people who have been playing since magic came out
or have won the lottery.
as i dont fall into either category, i dont play type I.
but i understand how i would feel if i did.
the way i look at is this.. if you have the cards/money to compete in type I,
for $40, add a LoA to your deck and just play the game.
type I is already full of staple cards anyway.. the only way reasonable way to get
rid of LoA is to get rid of power blue, mox, lotus, etc..
which they have already done.. its called type II.
type I and type II are already completely different worlds..
lets keep it that way..
the cards in type I are very cool, and i know i love to play the few spoilers i have
(fork, wheel, braingeyser, demonic tutor) but i only do so in friendly games..if i compete
its type II..
magic is fine the way it is
jm
Technowiz
bke...@mailhost.epix.net says...
>
>
>
>While it hasn't been discussed here for the past couple months, alot of
people
>seemed to think that Library of Alexandria is the next big target for
banning.
>The topic interested me, and I'd like to see what most people have to say
>about it now. A few thoughts:
>
>A.Library of Alexandria is one of the most broken cards in the game.
>Right up there with Ancestral Recall, followed by a few other biggies like
>Time Walk (which IMHO isn't *that* bad), Twister, and maybe Moxen/Lotus.
>Personally, I think the Demonic Tutor is also just as wicked a spoiler too,
>but that's another story.
Ancestral Recall is bad because it is only in one color. If every color
could use it it wouldn't be so terrible. Time walk is just ugly, another
turn for 1U is just too inexpensive. Twister 5ML are probably the worst
though. This is the order of power cards that i see.
1. Lotus.
2. Mox, in any order you choose.
6. Timewalk.
7. Timetwister.
8. Library of Alex.
>B.Unlike Mind Twist, which it was previously compared to during the course
of
>its own banning, LoA gives you a positive advantage as opposed to giving
your
>opponent a negative one. It's sorta like with Mind Twist, "You Lose" but
with
>LoA, "I Win".
Same with Lotus, but we aren't seeing that banned. Sure it's a one shot
deal, but have you noticed that all the 1st turn win combo's use it? Who can
say the same thing about the library?
>
>C.How bad is the Library compared to the other ones and if they banned it,
>wouldn't the other have to follow? It seems to me that Ancestral Recall has
a
>slight edge in the Brokenness department over the Library, but why has it so
>seldom been suggested to ban AR? Could it be the Price Tags? (Ancestral
>Recall-$92, Library of Alexandria $40)
Price is relative to location, use, and who's using it. Necropotence used to
be a cheap card around here... Then i started showing people how it's used.
>
>D.I thought I heard that WoTC stated they had given up trying to fix Type I.
>Further note, there will be no changes to the Type I Legal List until
October
>1st, which means we'd know about it in September.
>Is the Library really going to get banned? Is it necessary?
Not necessary, explained below.
>
>Personally, I would hope not because it's one of my favorite cards in the
>game, and alot of people here really love the Library, so banning it would
>just piss them off. It's usually only useful in the early game, and very
often
>it shows up late so I have to just throw it down to use as colorless mana.
>But on the first turn, it's amazing. But is it so bad that it requires
>banning? True, the one with the LoA will have the resource advantage, but
>isn't it the same with so many other cards? ie I have a Serra out and you
>don't, therefore I have the advantage. I cast Hymn to Tourach and make you
>discard, now I have the advantage.
>
>Well, just trying to generate some thoughtful discussion. So long,
>
>
> Brian
As a player who gave up alot to get my Library i really don't like
the idea of it being banned but beyond that there are some pretty sane
reasons why banning the library doesn't really make much sense.
I. Type I uses the greatest variety of cards available, if you have
em use em; if you don't, make a defense for them. Include Strip mines if you
are worried. Actually with the amount of 'Special' lands in Type I every
deck should use at least one strip mine.
II. It has an advantage and a disadvantage. You have to hold your
cards to keep using it, so while it isn't a viable card for WW it works ok in
Blue Permission. Some decks which need to hold cards should get an
advantage.
III. Black vise is no longer restricted. Stormseeker is in almost
every green deck. Nuff said.
IV. In the end it's a personal howling mine. It gives you two cards
per turn, sure. But at the cost of holding cards, using a land, and quite
possbily extra discards in the early game.
V. Early game it's great, Late game it's ok, End game it's bad. Who
wants the library to come up when they have no cards in their hand?
VI. There are more 'broken' cards out there. I.E. 5ML. Right now
Type I is mostly a matter of 'Am i lucky enough to pull a few mox at the
start?' In this type of environment if EVERY player is using a mox ruby,
even when they aren't playing red it's definitely a broken card. Not
everybody uses the Library.
-Technowiz
How about just making it unrestricted and making it a legendary land?
Around here it's legendary anyway. :)
Scott L. Wilson
Technowiz <df...@orion.alaska.edu> wrote:
>In article <NEWTNews.828931...@BKELLY.epix.net>,
>bke...@mailhost.epix.net says...
>>
>>
>>
>>While it hasn't been discussed here for the past couple months, alot of
>people
>>seemed to think that Library of Alexandria is the next big target for
>banning.
>>The topic interested me, and I'd like to see what most people have to say
>>about it now. A few thoughts:
>>
>>A.Library of Alexandria is one of the most broken cards in the game.
>>Right up there with Ancestral Recall, followed by a few other biggies like
>>Time Walk (which IMHO isn't *that* bad), Twister, and maybe Moxen/Lotus.
>>Personally, I think the Demonic Tutor is also just as wicked a spoiler too,
>>but that's another story.
>
>Ancestral Recall is bad because it is only in one color. If every color
>could use it it wouldn't be so terrible. Time walk is just ugly, another
>turn for 1U is just too inexpensive. Twister 5ML are probably the worst
>though. This is the order of power cards that i see.
>
> 1. Lotus.
> 2. Mox, in any order you choose.
> 6. Timewalk.
> 7. Timetwister.
> 8. Library of Alex.
Lotus is only a pumped up Dark ritual, while a mox is only pumped up
land. While they are definitly powerful, Ancestral Recall, and Timewalk
are more powerful than any of those. Timetwister for that matter, is just
a fancy Wheel of Fortune.
Library of Alex on the other hand... is 2 cards a turn for most of the
game if not destroyed.
>>B.Unlike Mind Twist, which it was previously compared to during the course
>of
>>its own banning, LoA gives you a positive advantage as opposed to giving
>your
>>opponent a negative one. It's sorta like with Mind Twist, "You Lose" but
>with
>>LoA, "I Win".
>
>Same with Lotus, but we aren't seeing that banned. Sure it's a one shot
>deal, but have you noticed that all the 1st turn win combo's use it? Who can
>say the same thing about the library?
Most heavy hitters in the Type I tourney scene that I know whould
much rather have a Library in their opening hand than a Lotus. A lotus
may be speed, put a library is staying power, something which most
fast decks inherently lack, and slow decks need. Even with a
fast deck, it is worthwhile to go slightly slower in order to keep your
hand full. By turn 7 having a full hand with a 1st turn library is
having played as many cards as you would have if you emptied your hand by
turn 7.
>>C.How bad is the Library compared to the other ones and if they banned it,
>>wouldn't the other have to follow? It seems to me that Ancestral Recall has
>a
>>slight edge in the Brokenness department over the Library, but why has it so
>>seldom been suggested to ban AR? Could it be the Price Tags? (Ancestral
>>Recall-$92, Library of Alexandria $40)
>
>Price is relative to location, use, and who's using it. Necropotence used to
>be a cheap card around here... Then i started showing people how it's used.
>
>>
>>D.I thought I heard that WoTC stated they had given up trying to fix Type I.
>>Further note, there will be no changes to the Type I Legal List until
>October
>>1st, which means we'd know about it in September.
>>Is the Library really going to get banned? Is it necessary?
>
>Not necessary, explained below.
>
>>
>>Personally, I would hope not because it's one of my favorite cards in the
>>game, and alot of people here really love the Library, so banning it would
>>just piss them off. It's usually only useful in the early game, and very
>often
>>it shows up late so I have to just throw it down to use as colorless mana.
>>But on the first turn, it's amazing. But is it so bad that it requires
>>banning? True, the one with the LoA will have the resource advantage, but
>>isn't it the same with so many other cards? ie I have a Serra out and you
>>don't, therefore I have the advantage. I cast Hymn to Tourach and make you
>>discard, now I have the advantage.
>>
>
>
> As a player who gave up alot to get my Library i really don't like
>the idea of it being banned but beyond that there are some pretty sane
>reasons why banning the library doesn't really make much sense.
>
> I. Type I uses the greatest variety of cards available, if you have
>em use em; if you don't, make a defense for them. Include Strip mines if you
>are worried. Actually with the amount of 'Special' lands in Type I every
>deck should use at least one strip mine.
Pretty much every good type I deck I know of runs at least 2 strips actually,
many just for the Library. And while it is a decent counter, I don't like
the idea that all decks must have a certain card, just to stop another
certain card.
> II. It has an advantage and a disadvantage. You have to hold your
>cards to keep using it, so while it isn't a viable card for WW it works ok in
>Blue Permission. Some decks which need to hold cards should get an
>advantage.
Its relatively easy to keep cards in your hand, especially when you are
drawing 2 a turn, or in a deck with both a WoF and a Twister. I used
to run a big fast creature/bolt deck with which I would be quite glad
to start with a Library.
> III. Black vise is no longer restricted. Stormseeker is in almost
>every green deck. Nuff said.
I'll grant you this point. Personally I was much more in favor of
the Library's banning when the vice was restricted, now that it isn't,
its a little more acceptable.
> IV. In the end it's a personal howling mine. It gives you two cards
>per turn, sure. But at the cost of holding cards, using a land, and quite
>possbily extra discards in the early game.
What cost is there in holding cards, especially since you can play 2
a turn it really only slows down the first few, and by turn 7 you
overtake whatever could be on the table without a library, and have a
full hand to boot. And early extra discards aren't too bad either,
How many people would turn down a 1 mana Jalum Tome.
> V. Early game it's great, Late game it's ok, End game it's bad. Who
>wants the library to come up when they have no cards in their hand?
Even without 7 cards, its still a colorless mana source, and getting
back up to 7 cards with Wheel, Twister, Arecall (with Dtutor and regrowth/
recall to get to them) isnt that uncommon. Maybe, if the library could
not generate mana I'd accept this, but as it is, in late game its no
worse than any other land (you probably have all necessary color already.)
> VI. There are more 'broken' cards out there. I.E. 5ML. Right now
>Type I is mostly a matter of 'Am i lucky enough to pull a few mox at the
>start?' In this type of environment if EVERY player is using a mox ruby,
>even when they aren't playing red it's definitely a broken card. Not
>everybody uses the Library.
5ML are not nearly as broken as the libary, they are merely faster mana.
And if every player in your Type I tourney enviroment isnt playing
the library that owns one.... I seriously wonder about your enviroment.
From the Weissman deck to a total burn bolt/psiblast/Sseeker deck
it is probably the most powerful starting card.
> How about just making it unrestricted and making it a legendary land?
> Around here it's legendary anyway. :)
This way you can't even combat your opponents first turn library by laying
your own.... great idea.... Put even more luck of the draw/who goes
first in the game.
____ __ _______ "What is Best in Life?
/ __/ / / /__ __/ To Crush your Enemies, to see them driven before
\_ \ / / / / / / you, and to have really great beer, like Keystone
/___//_/ /__/ /_/ and Keystone light." EMAIL: sl...@midway.uchicago.edu
Technowiz
>>>While it hasn't been discussed here for the past couple months, alot of
>>people
>>>seemed to think that Library of Alexandria is the next big target for
>>banning. A few thoughts:
>>>
>>>A.Library of Alexandria is one of the most broken cards in the game.
>>>Right up there with Ancestral Recall, followed by a few other biggies like
>>>Time Walk (which IMHO isn't *that* bad), Twister, and maybe Moxen/Lotus.
>>>Personally, I think the Demonic Tutor is also just as wicked a spoiler
too,
>>>but that's another story.
>>
>>Ancestral Recall is bad because it is only in one color. If every color
>>could use it it wouldn't be so terrible. Time walk is just ugly, another
>>turn for 1U is just too inexpensive. Twister 5ML are probably the worst
>>though. This is the order of power cards that i see.
>>
>> 1. Lotus.
>> 2. Mox, in any order you choose.
>> 6. Timewalk.
>> 7. Timetwister.
>> 8. Library of Alex.
>
>Lotus is only a pumped up Dark ritual, while a mox is only pumped up
>land. While they are definitly powerful, Ancestral Recall, and Timewalk
>are more powerful than any of those. Timetwister for that matter, is just
>a fancy Wheel of Fortune.
>Library of Alex on the other hand... is 2 cards a turn for most of the
>game if not destroyed.
A pumped up Dark Ritual??! How about the 'ULTIMATE dark ritual for any color
at no cost' And saying that moxen are just pumped up lands means you haven't
seen enough Armageddon decks. Speed in the early game allows games to be
won. Drawing a hand full of Moxen and a lotus very few players could
complain. And those that do do so because they don't have anything to use it
on right away, but somewhere in those next few cards is a high cost spell
that they will literally drop on your head.
With your reasoning you could call Library of Alex a 'Pumped up Jayemdae
tome.'
>>>B.Unlike Mind Twist, which it was previously compared to during the course
>>of
>>>its own banning, LoA gives you a positive advantage as opposed to giving
>>your
>>>opponent a negative one. It's sorta like with Mind Twist, "You Lose" but
>>with
>>>LoA, "I Win".
>>
>>Same with Lotus, but we aren't seeing that banned. Sure it's a one shot
>>deal, but have you noticed that all the 1st turn win combo's use it? Who
can
>>say the same thing about the library?
>
>Most heavy hitters in the Type I tourney scene that I know whould
>much rather have a Library in their opening hand than a Lotus. A lotus
>may be speed, put a library is staying power, something which most
>fast decks inherently lack, and slow decks need. Even with a
>fast deck, it is worthwhile to go slightly slower in order to keep your
>hand full. By turn 7 having a full hand with a 1st turn library is
>having played as many cards as you would have if you emptied your hand by
>turn 7.
Hmm.. Interesting. I would like to know how many people that first turn
library helped when the other guy get's a first turn Lotus + Ball Lightning +
Giant Growth. Ok, you draw two cards, i deal 9 damage. Let's compare notes.
And a true speed deck will lay down half it's cards in a few turns anyway.
Even faster in a good speed deck. I've seen some decks put down their entire
first hand in one shot. (kobold deck. Gosh wasn't that a fun game. :) )
Actually i'm interested in seeing how many players out there would rather
have
A: Lotus
B: Library
C: Their choice of 2 Moxen.
Just the library? How about Mishra's Workshop/Factories, or Maze of Ith,
Glacial Chasm (Not seen much). How about just for stripping that crucial
tundra? I doubt Weissman says 'Gee i'd better put in two strip mines just in
case he gets a library of alex.'
Once again, Type I, ANY CARD. I could understand Channel. It's a card that
is screaming for an errata, but Mind Twist and Library of Alex are just fine
restricted.
>
>> II. It has an advantage and a disadvantage. You have to hold your
>>cards to keep using it, so while it isn't a viable card for WW it works ok
in
>>Blue Permission. Some decks which need to hold cards should get an
>>advantage.
>
>Its relatively easy to keep cards in your hand, especially when you are
>drawing 2 a turn, or in a deck with both a WoF and a Twister. I used
>to run a big fast creature/bolt deck with which I would be quite glad
>to start with a Library.
Would you want to start out with the library in a White Weenie deck like i
said? How about a Kobold deck. Note: Library is good in slow/medium decks.
DOES NOT WORK in a speed deck.
Even if you are holding 7 and drawing two a turn, one card you put down is
land (Hopefully) and the other is something that helps you attain your goal
(Be it lock, attack, defense.....) Now if i put down land + 2 to attain goal
then you are one behind. Better watch out.
And what if (As suggested above) i put down a Hymn to Tourach? Suddenly you
have a useless library because you are below 7 cards and you will have to
wait to be able to use it again. Unless you prefer colorless to a dual land?
>
>> III. Black vise is no longer restricted. Stormseeker is in almost
>>every green deck. Nuff said.
>
>I'll grant you this point. Personally I was much more in favor of
>the Library's banning when the vice was restricted, now that it isn't,
>its a little more acceptable.
Thank you.
>
>> IV. In the end it's a personal howling mine. It gives you two
cards
>>per turn, sure. But at the cost of holding cards, using a land, and quite
>>possbily extra discards in the early game.
>
>What cost is there in holding cards, especially since you can play 2
>a turn it really only slows down the first few, and by turn 7 you
>overtake whatever could be on the table without a library, and have a
>full hand to boot. And early extra discards aren't too bad either,
>How many people would turn down a 1 mana Jalum Tome.
Turn 7?! It goes into 7 turns with permission/slow/defense I.E. Weissman
decks. By turn seven he'd better be dead or hurting by my calculations. If
i give him 7 turns to set up whatever nastiness he wants to i'd better be
prepared with something more than a library to back me up.
And the cost in holding cards is that you are sacrificing your potential
damage/goal to gain more cards to help you acheive the above. Turn one i've
put out a lanowar elf that i didn't need for mana for a bit. By turn 5 he
had done 8-9 damage alone. I could have held him and drawn more cards (If i
would have had library) but instead he got the damage in.
>
>> V. Early game it's great, Late game it's ok, End game it's bad.
Who wants the library to come up when they have no cards in their hand?
>
>Even without 7 cards, its still a colorless mana source, and getting
>back up to 7 cards with Wheel, Twister, Arecall (with Dtutor and regrowth/
>recall to get to them) isnt that uncommon. Maybe, if the library could
>not generate mana I'd accept this, but as it is, in late game its no
>worse than any other land (you probably have all necessary color already.)
No, you missed the point. Late game i'd rather draw a card than another mana
of any type. And if you'll note i said 'When they have no cards in their
hand?' This means you don't have a tutor, or a regrowth, or a wheel... etc.
How many times have you flipped over the next card after losing a game only
to realize it is the card that would have won the game for you. If only you
would have drawn it instead of your 14th island...
>
>> VI. There are more 'broken' cards out there. I.E. 5ML. Right now
>>Type I is mostly a matter of 'Am i lucky enough to pull a few mox at the
>>start?' In this type of environment if EVERY player is using a mox ruby,
>>even when they aren't playing red it's definitely a broken card. Not
>>everybody uses the Library.
>
>5ML are not nearly as broken as the libary, they are merely faster mana.
>And if every player in your Type I tourney enviroment isnt playing
>the library that owns one.... I seriously wonder about your enviroment.
>From the Weissman deck to a total burn bolt/psiblast/Sseeker deck
>it is probably the most powerful starting card.
>
Speed = ability to play your game = win.
Drawing = ability to FIND your game = possible win.
A mix will allow for a greater possibilty for a win. But in the early game
i'd rather drop a first turn Moat than a library.
Oh, and as for my environment. We play smart. If i normally drop a
lumberjack turn one, and then i lumberjack + Tinderwall 2 ball lightnings
turn 2, i can't use a library. If i rely on that kind of speed for my deck a
library doesn't do me any good.
Also if the environment starts showing up with alot of vises i might not want
to play my library as much. Card drawing when a vise drops is not only
stupid but it's suicidal as well.
>> How about just making it unrestricted and making it a legendary
land?
>> Around here it's legendary anyway. :)
>
>This way you can't even combat your opponents first turn library by laying
>your own.... great idea.... Put even more luck of the draw/who goes
>first in the game.
>
If it's only coming down to luck we wouldn't have an entire 'Strategy'
newsgroup for it. Heck there are even strategies on how to reduce the
'Beginners luck' draw. (See Zero cost interrupts)
Oh, and that legendary land thing was a joke. ha ha?
-Technowiz
"Defender of Libraries great and small."
Scott L. Wilson
It may be the ultimate dark ritual, but it is still one shot, and it
is still fast mana.(meaning a late game lotus is not very useful)
And sure, moxen work well in Armageddon, or winter orb decks. However,
I find those decks don't work in Type I nearly as well as Type II
because moxen work so well in it. If you have moxen and your opponent
doesn't... sure an Armageddon/Winter Orb can be devastating. However,
in Type I, you have to expect your opponent to mave moxen.
Ok, lets consider the advantages that all these cards have over their
counterparts.
Lotus: Any color, gives one more mana,
However, loses supprize if used for counterspelling
(like dark ritual to powersink)
(ok, the flaw is no big deal, Lotus is far better than a dark ritual
than a long shot, but I don't consider a dark ritual that great of
a card, though its not a bad one either.)
Mox: One color (whereas alot of land in Type I is two color)
Goes into play immediatly. (this is useful in the beginning
game, but nothing later in the game.)
Basically you can get 0-3 or so more mana from a mox than
you could from a land, at the cost of color choice.
I don't consider their effectiveness against/with Armaggedon
as a plus, since your opponent gets the same thing. I find
Armaggedon/Winter Orb work much better in a non mox environ.
LoA: Costs one land to cast instead of 4 mana.
Costs "one mana" to use rather than 4 mana.
You must have 7 cards in your hand.
Considering that the LoA is "4" times as efficient as a
Jayemdae tome, (which is still a pretty good card) the
drawback seems pretty light.
Ok, you say a true speed deck will lay down half its cards anyway in
a few turns....
Lets say that a "true speed deck" has only 3 cards left in its hand
after turn 3. With a first turn active library, by turn 3 you can
play 7 cards and still have your library working. (you'll have 6
cards in hand, and can use the library after drawing every turn)
Without the library, if you play 7 cards by turn three you will have
only 3 cards left in your hand... about what you say a good
speed deck will do. (ok, maybe a little off... but do you consider
that difference worth not drawing 2 cards a turn for the rest of the
game assuming the library isnt stopped.)
>Actually i'm interested in seeing how many players out there would rather
>have
> A: Lotus
> B: Library
> C: Their choice of 2 Moxen.
Well, I doubt anyone would choose A over C, but personally I my order
is BCA.
I have 2 strips in my deck (which is a wierd Weissman style deck)
that I put in with that exact reasoning. They get used for other things,
and I even have 2 more in my sideboard for against those decks where
I think I want them (lots of mishra's/bazaars/permission decks)
but the libary is the primary reason there are 2 in the base deck.
>Once again, Type I, ANY CARD. I could understand Channel. It's a card that
>is screaming for an errata, but Mind Twist and Library of Alex are just fine
>restricted.
>
>>
>>> II. It has an advantage and a disadvantage. You have to hold your
>>>cards to keep using it, so while it isn't a viable card for WW it works ok
>in
>>>Blue Permission. Some decks which need to hold cards should get an
>>>advantage.
>>
>>Its relatively easy to keep cards in your hand, especially when you are
>>drawing 2 a turn, or in a deck with both a WoF and a Twister. I used
>>to run a big fast creature/bolt deck with which I would be quite glad
>>to start with a Library.
>
>Would you want to start out with the library in a White Weenie deck like i
>said? How about a Kobold deck. Note: Library is good in slow/medium decks.
> DOES NOT WORK in a speed deck.
>
>Even if you are holding 7 and drawing two a turn, one card you put down is
>land (Hopefully) and the other is something that helps you attain your goal
>(Be it lock, attack, defense.....) Now if i put down land + 2 to attain goal
>then you are one behind. Better watch out.
>
>And what if (As suggested above) i put down a Hymn to Tourach? Suddenly you
>have a useless library because you are below 7 cards and you will have to
>wait to be able to use it again. Unless you prefer colorless to a dual land?
As I showed above, it doesnt really slow down a speed deck much. And
even if someone does something to kill your hand size, it will sit
there and be colorless land... until you/your opponent casts Wheel
or Twister. If nothing else, it is a deterent to your opponent casting
these other cards. One of which some guy was actually calling
the most powerful card in magic...(shrug)
>>> IV. In the end it's a personal howling mine. It gives you two
>cards
>>>per turn, sure. But at the cost of holding cards, using a land, and quite
>>>possbily extra discards in the early game.
>>
>>What cost is there in holding cards, especially since you can play 2
>>a turn it really only slows down the first few, and by turn 7 you
>>overtake whatever could be on the table without a library, and have a
>>full hand to boot. And early extra discards aren't too bad either,
>>How many people would turn down a 1 mana Jalum Tome.
>
>Turn 7?! It goes into 7 turns with permission/slow/defense I.E. Weissman
>decks. By turn seven he'd better be dead or hurting by my calculations. If
>i give him 7 turns to set up whatever nastiness he wants to i'd better be
>prepared with something more than a library to back me up.
>
>And the cost in holding cards is that you are sacrificing your potential
>damage/goal to gain more cards to help you acheive the above. Turn one i've
>put out a lanowar elf that i didn't need for mana for a bit. By turn 5 he
>had done 8-9 damage alone. I could have held him and drawn more cards (If i
>would have had library) but instead he got the damage in.
See my above stuff on what can happen by turn 3. And even assuming
that the speed deck sans library will empty its hand, the library
deck can actually catch up by turn 6. (I forgot that 6 cards in
hand works too since you can just use it after you draw.)
>>> V. Early game it's great, Late game it's ok, End game it's bad.
>Who wants the library to come up when they have no cards in their hand?
>>
>>Even without 7 cards, its still a colorless mana source, and getting
>>back up to 7 cards with Wheel, Twister, Arecall (with Dtutor and regrowth/
>>recall to get to them) isnt that uncommon. Maybe, if the library could
>>not generate mana I'd accept this, but as it is, in late game its no
>>worse than any other land (you probably have all necessary color already.)
>
>No, you missed the point. Late game i'd rather draw a card than another mana
>of any type. And if you'll note i said 'When they have no cards in their
>hand?' This means you don't have a tutor, or a regrowth, or a wheel... etc.
>
>How many times have you flipped over the next card after losing a game only
>to realize it is the card that would have won the game for you. If only you
>would have drawn it instead of your 14th island...
And if you had used the library just once...you would have gotten
to that card.....
>>> VI. There are more 'broken' cards out there. I.E. 5ML. Right now
>>>Type I is mostly a matter of 'Am i lucky enough to pull a few mox at the
>>>start?' In this type of environment if EVERY player is using a mox ruby,
>>>even when they aren't playing red it's definitely a broken card. Not
>>>everybody uses the Library.
>>
>>5ML are not nearly as broken as the libary, they are merely faster mana.
>>And if every player in your Type I tourney enviroment isnt playing
>>the library that owns one.... I seriously wonder about your enviroment.
>>From the Weissman deck to a total burn bolt/psiblast/Sseeker deck
>>it is probably the most powerful starting card.
>>
>
>Speed = ability to play your game = win.
>Drawing = ability to FIND your game = possible win.
>
>A mix will allow for a greater possibilty for a win. But in the early game
>i'd rather drop a first turn Moat than a library.
>Oh, and as for my environment. We play smart. If i normally drop a
>lumberjack turn one, and then i lumberjack + Tinderwall 2 ball lightnings
>turn 2, i can't use a library. If i rely on that kind of speed for my deck a
>library doesn't do me any good.
With a first turn library, you just play your deck in a different
style. If a speed deck is drawing 2 cards a turn, it doesnt need such
a great start since it has so much staying power. Keeping your hand
at 7(or 6) cards really isn't that hard. I'd expect the library
to be destroyed by a strip mine before you get Hymmed or something.
(and even the hymn will only stop you from playing something for
1 turn if you had a 7 card hand)
Blackmage
nonsense in my opinion. There are tons of ways for an opponent to get
rid of a library. First any basic landdestruction (Strip Mine,
Thermokast, Icequake, Stone Rain, Armageddon). But second also other
cards such as the Mole Worm. A Black Vise of which you may have 4 now in
Type 1 will quickly stop your opponent using the library. A Winter Orb
makes it at least very difficult to use. And don't forget it's mostly
only useful if you get in very early game. In my opionion whoever cannot
deal with the Library in Type 1 looses by it's own fault.
Just my $.02
Blackmage.
--
****************************
* Alex Proschofsky *
* Schulerstrasse 1-3/64 *
* A-1010 Vienna *
* AUSTRIA (Europe) *
* Tel. +43 1 5137148 *
****************************
Thierry Tremblay
> at no cost' And saying that moxen are just pumped up lands means you haven't
> seen enough Armageddon decks. Speed in the early game allows games to be
> won. Drawing a hand full of Moxen and a lotus very few players could
> complain. And those that do do so because they don't have anything to use it
> on right away, but somewhere in those next few cards is a high cost spell
> that they will literally drop on your head.
>
> With your reasoning you could call Library of Alex a 'Pumped up Jayemdae
> tome.'
Yep, and an Ancestrall Recall is a "Pumped up brainstorm",
I read somewhere that timetwister was nothing more than a "fancy" wheel of fortune???
That guy knows nothing about recursion decks.
> Hmm.. Interesting. I would like to know how many people that first turn
> library helped when the other guy get's a first turn Lotus + Ball Lightning +
> Giant Growth. Ok, you draw two cards, i deal 9 damage. Let's compare notes.
You may have dealt 9 damage, but it costed you 3 cards. Maybe nice, but 3 lightning
does the same thing. It is true that black lotus is very powerfull, but your example
to demonstrate it is not very good IMO. Why not try lotus, ancestrall recall,
fastbond, lay lands, timetwister (that fancy wheel of fortune who put your lotus and ancestrall
recallin the library), lay lands (with fastbond), start your first turn with 4-5 manas,
PLUS the possibility to draw the lotus/recall again is there.
> And a true speed deck will lay down half it's cards in a few turns anyway.
yep
> Would you want to start out with the library in a White Weenie deck like i
> said? How about a Kobold deck. Note: Library is good in slow/medium decks.
> DOES NOT WORK in a speed deck.
that's true. The library doesn't work in all decks
> Even if you are holding 7 and drawing two a turn, one card you put down is
> land (Hopefully) and the other is something that helps you attain your goal
> (Be it lock, attack, defense.....) Now if i put down land + 2 to attain goal
> then you are one behind. Better watch out.
that's exactly the problem. In some deck (some being a keyword here), the library
just slow you down (you use it, or it doesn't give colors! I usually count it as
a resource provider, not a land. Sometimes, jalum or jayemdae are just better)
> And what if (As suggested above) i put down a Hymn to Tourach? Suddenly you
> have a useless library because you are below 7 cards and you will have to
> wait to be able to use it again. Unless you prefer colorless to a dual land?
Hymn to tourach or land destruction decks won't let you use the library. A black
mana with dark ritual would have been better.
Thierry
Have fun and be creative.
Vincent Saldell
>Not necessary, explained below.
>
> -Technowiz
Actually I have to agree that library isnt that awesome when black vise
is no longer unrestricted. Weissman in all honour, but Weissman decks
are good, but not the best decktype (IMHO), since there are many new
approaches in type 1 that kicks its butt.
Especially with Amnesia instead of Mindtwist its slower to get going.
Since I will get querie feedbacks about what decktypes beat The Deck,
Ill say some that plays even and some that will win.
Blue/Black Chains of Mephistopheles/Howling Mine/Rack/Permission is about even
Green/X Landdestruct/Stunted Growth/Jesters Cap wipes the floor with it
White/X Critter/Armageddon and you have to dust up the pieces
I havent tried my type 1 viseage deck versus it, but I can assure you
that the library wont be of much use with 4 vises (4 Disenchants doesnt
guarrantee 0 vises even with counterspells - since there are other
things that also has to be countered) and 2 Stormseekers.
There are lots of things that destroys land, and a first turn library
is less likely than a first turn black vise - and if you are going to
a tourney where Blue/White will rule, put in 4 Black Vise in sideboard
since Black Vise is a real pain for Blue/White (I know because I often
play UWb(g) Weissman or Millstone).
Basically one can say that there are 3 cardcategories that reduces
the power of the library: Landdestruction, Discard & Carddamagers.
Landdestruction: Stone Rain, Strip Mine, Thermokarst, Icequake,
Sinkhole, Icestorm, Armageddon are the best.
Discard: Amnesia, Disrupting Sceptre, Stunted Growth,
Hymn to Tourach, Hypnotic Spectre rules here.
Carddamagers: Black Vise, Stormseeker are the only ones.
Also, forcing opponent to counter many spells, will get his hand
below Library-range.
So, while Library was once extremely good, it is now only good.
I mean I allways put one Library in all type 1 decks, but I do
not get the feeling it is the best card in there.
The best card IMHO is Ancestral Recall, and in a late game with
many (non-mana)permanents out Timewalk rules.
But all cardgainers gets more powerful when you have moxset+lotus
and all powercards makes demonic tutor/regrowth/recall/timetwister
pretty awesome as well.
Who doesnt get a mental orgasm when they pull 4 Timewalks in a row? =)
-Vincent Saldell
Andrew Gibbs
(Chance Harris) wrote:
> bke...@mailhost.epix.net wrote:
>
> : C.How bad is the Library compared to the other ones and if they banned it,
> : wouldn't the other have to follow? It seems to me that Ancestral
Recall has a
> : slight edge in the Brokenness department over the Library, but why has
it so
> : seldom been suggested to ban AR? Could it be the Price Tags? (Ancestral
> : Recall-$92, Library of Alexandria $40)
>
> I think LoA is much worse than AR. Think of your winning percetnage when
> LoA is in your first 8 cards ... now think of your winning percentage when
> AR is in your first 8 cards. I mean, I'm still really happy to see AR in
> my opening hand, but it doesn't give me that feeling of "I won".
>
> You use your AR and its done - at least until you Regrowth/Recall/Cane it.
> LoA is there turn after turn, making sure that you draw twice as much
> as your opponent.
>
LoA is nothing a strip mine cant overcome. Also, it is not hard to
counter the ancestral. I wish people would stop whining for cards to be
banned, and start thinking about ways to deal with them. That is what
magic is about. Be creative!
--
Andrew Gibbs
rgi...@ici.net
Blackmage
> counter the ancestral. I wish people would stop whining for cards to be
> banned, and start thinking about ways to deal with them. That is what
> magic is about. Be creative!
>
> --
> Andrew Gibbs
> rgi...@ici.net
100% right. Stop this ban this/restrict that whining and start playing.
Mike Donais
> > LoA is nothing a strip mine cant overcome. Also, it is not hard to
> > counter the ancestral. I wish people would stop whining for cards to be
> > banned, and start thinking about ways to deal with them. That is what
> > magic is about. Be creative!
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Gibbs
> > rgi...@ici.net
>
> 100% right. Stop this ban this/restrict that whining and start playing.
I agree no card is too powerful because you can just counter it.
Chaos orb isn't powerful, just rust it.
Put 4 timewalks in, they can be countered anyways.
Channel about to kill you ? Nah, just counter it.
Shahrazad extending the length of the game? Just counter it.
Don't want to play for ante? Just counter all the ante cards.
Maze of Ith slowing down the game since you each have 4 out? Strip Mine it.
Drawing lots of cards with Library (or several libraries?) Strip em all.
You guys are so right, just counter or strip everything.
As a matter of fact with all these things that you must counter and strip
mine since they are unbalanced, who has room to put these restricted
cards in their deck anyways.
What a stupid thread.
--
Mike Donais. (BOFH) (don...@uwindsor.ca)
SOCR: Student Operated Computing Resources (Http://supernova.uwindsor.ca)
Travis McIntosh
Countering and Striping everyhting is not the answer.
Most of the so-called "broken" cards have a short-term usefulness. An
AR may be useful, but not enough to ban. An LoA should not even be
considered for banning. The only cards that should be banned are those
that slow down the game (Shahrazad), garantee a win (Time Vault under
the old rules with an animate artifact), or do something retarded
(Divine Intervention). A LoA doesn't garantee a win, plus it has
limited usefullness. Most decks can't use the library. The only decks
I have ever seen use the LoA are the Weisman "I control everything in
play" decks. If an LoA isn't a game winner, why should it be banned?
RAW STEAL
: On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Blackmage wrote:
: > > LoA is nothing a strip mine cant overcome. Also, it is not hard to
: > > counter the ancestral. I wish people would stop whining for cards to be
Um...yeah. I'll play with 4 LoA and you play with 4 Strip Mines and
we'll see who wins...same for the Ancestrals and Counterspells.
No, even better, you play with 4 Counterspells and I'll play with 4 Mind
Twists :)
BILL
RAW STEAL
: AR may be useful, but not enough to ban. An LoA should not even be
But LoA IS a game winner. As was Mind Twist before it. I'm not
saying every deck should have LoA or should've had Mind Twist, but the
first player to pull it almost always won. I know examples don't count
for much but I have never lost a game with LoA on the draw unless they
Stripped it their next turn. If I play a deck that I win 80%
against...15% of the time they win is when they get LoA in the first 3
turns. Same with Mind Twist before banning. I'm sure many others have
gone through this before. Oh, and by the way, most decks CAN use the
LoA. The only ones that can't are weenie decks which are
virtually non-existent in Type I. All of the resricted cards in Type I
greatly improve your chances of winning, but some are just to screwy.
Library of Alexandria is the best card in magic. (most abusive)
Someone back me up on this...
BILL
Peter C Grauer
My number one argument against the banning of the Library of
Alexandria is that it is a land. Lands can be destroyed with a single
uncounterable strip mine, of which you may have four in your deck.
Pete Grauer
Vancouver, BC
RAW STEAL
: My number one argument against the banning of the Library of
: Alexandria is that it is a land. Lands can be destroyed with a single
: uncounterable strip mine, of which you may have four in your deck.
But doesn't this bring us back to the original arguement?
Most Type I decks have AT LEAST 4 counters (Counterspell, Mana Drain, etc.)
These can stop all spells (non-land cards). So why ban anything?
Look at it this way, if LoA was banned would any Type I deck play with
Strip Mines? Probably not. Besides Land Destruction of course.
2 Strip Mines are in "The Deck" for the sole purpose of LoA.
BILL
Travis McIntosh
>
> Peter C Grauer (pgr...@Direct.CA) wrote:
> : My number one argument against the banning of the Library of
> : Alexandria is that it is a land. Lands can be destroyed with a single
> : uncounterable strip mine, of which you may have four in your deck.
>
> But doesn't this bring us back to the original arguement?
>
> Most Type I decks have AT LEAST 4 counters (Counterspell, Mana Drain, etc.)
> These can stop all spells (non-land cards). So why ban anything?
> Look at it this way, if LoA was banned would any Type I deck play with
> Strip Mines? Probably not. Besides Land Destruction of course.
Type I decks would still use strips, even were you to
ban LoA. They would be there to kill Mishra's Workshop, Maze of Ith,
and Dual lands early in the game. The LoA is not the reason that strip
mines are in T1 decks. It is one of many.
I am getting annoyed by the fact that many people seem
to think that all T1 decks that have a remote chance of winning have to
be blue. So blue has counters. Good cards, yes, but not that hard to
get around. Red has DD, White has big destruction (WoG, Armaggedon,
Balance, etc.), Green has big creature, and black has discard. These
are all main themes of the colors and all tournament decks should be
adapted to them. And before someone mails me back saying, "You must
have power cards to say that", no, I do not. I own 1 Ali from Cairo as
my most expensive card, but I do not play red. Incidently, my
non-power card deck does quite well in the local tournament (Bourbon
Street Comics - Tampa, Florida).
Rupert Alexander Lee Buttkiss III
<h895...@miraculix.wu-wien.ac.at> wrote:
> Right guys the Library is a great card but thinking of banning it is
> nonsense in my opinion. There are tons of ways for an opponent to get
> rid of a library. First any basic landdestruction (Strip Mine,
> Thermokast, Icequake, Stone Rain, Armageddon). But second also other
> cards such as the Mole Worm. A Black Vise of which you may have 4 now in
> Type 1 will quickly stop your opponent using the library. A Winter Orb
> makes it at least very difficult to use. And don't forget it's mostly
> only useful if you get in very early game. In my opionion whoever cannot
> deal with the Library in Type 1 looses by it's own fault.
>
> Just my $.02
>
> Blackmage.
> --
> ****************************
> * Alex Proschofsky *
> * Schulerstrasse 1-3/64 *
> * A-1010 Vienna *
> * AUSTRIA (Europe) *
> * Tel. +43 1 5137148 *
> ****************************
No kidding Alex, let him use the damn card, see if i care when i cast 4
storm seekers... fine by me.
Monica Severa
Alexandria:
>No kidding Alex, let him use the damn card, see if i care when i cast 4
>storm seekers... fine by me.
And I bet you'll love it when he Counters each one. He's able to, you
know, because he's drawn about 5 or 6 extra cards by the time you get 4
Storm Seekers off.
-Matt
Craig Sivils
> Type I decks would still use strips, even were you to
>ban LoA. They would be there to kill Mishra's Workshop, Maze of Ith,
>and Dual lands early in the game. The LoA is not the reason that strip
>mines are in T1 decks. It is one of many.
Strips in for all of the above PLUS
Strategic color reduction, ie: Opponent has only 2 blue untapped, one
is an island. Strip, now you have a counter free window of
opportunity. Low on life and worried about the big fireball, if
opponent only has 1-2 red and you strip em, will be a bit before you
see the fireball (assuming no mox/lotus). Strips are a very versitile
card, and are a basic staple card like disenchant.
Craig
Sean c. OBrien
Well, you all seem to neclect one thing, 4 vises are back, and if you wish
to library for 6 damage a turn, feel free...
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