How to beat Necropotence decks? Consistently? (type 2)
Dan Hörning
It happened again yesterday. Local 40-man tourney. 10 Necrodecks. Quarterfinals
- seven Necro decks left. The eigth person was Leon Lindback (of pro-tour
fame - came 3rd in the New York tournament) who was playing a White Weenie
deck as a counter to the Necrodecks that he invented (be aware that Leon
and Thomas was the only people in the New York pro tourney that played
the Necro decks as they are known today and not with Land Destruction or
Sengir Vampires). I don't know how it finished - I was too disgusted. I
had played Necro as well but died to another Necro. It comes down only
to luck when Necro goes against Necro.
So how do we beat Necropotence? Consistently? Yes, I know Goblin Decks
can be difficult and that Karma kills you, but that NEVER HAPPENS. The
Necrodecks can beat any anti-necro deck I have seen. Willowgeddon is
a joke. I would ante my power cards any day against a Willowgeddon deck.
Red howling mine/stormseeker/winter orb/8 bolts also do not work. I
can't figure out why but the Necro deck just win and win. How can we
beat it?
Has anyone seriously tried out Manabarbs? Kormus Bell?
I know White Weenie with 16 protection from black creatures beats Necro
about 75% of the time. But White Weenie loses to everything else. Or is
there a WW deck out there that I have not yet seen?
I also know that Necro becomes much less dangerous when Guerilla Tactics
introduce the 12 bolts deck to type 2 (along with Diminished Returnings)
but the Swedish National is two weeks hence and there will be no Alliances
in that tournament and I have a title to defend...
Dan Horning
Type 2 Swedish National MTG Champion 1995
Charles T. Schwope
d91...@nada.kth.se (Dan Hörning) wrote:
>It happened again yesterday. Local 40-man tourney. 10 Necrodecks. Quarterfinals
>- seven Necro decks left. The eigth person was Leon Lindback (of pro-tour
>fame - came 3rd in the New York tournament) who was playing a White Weenie
>deck as a counter to the Necrodecks that he invented (be aware that Leon
>and Thomas was the only people in the New York pro tourney that played
>the Necro decks as they are known today and not with Land Destruction or
>Sengir Vampires). I don't know how it finished - I was too disgusted. I
>had played Necro as well but died to another Necro. It comes down only
>to luck when Necro goes against Necro.
This weekend's tourney was about 45 people, only 3 necro decks (one of
them mine), but all 3 made the top 8. The finals were necro on necro.
And this (of course) prompted an amusing discussion from George Baxter
on Necro (more in a bit).
>So how do we beat Necropotence? Consistently? Yes, I know Goblin Decks
>can be difficult and that Karma kills you, but that NEVER HAPPENS. The
>Necrodecks can beat any anti-necro deck I have seen. Willowgeddon is
>a joke. I would ante my power cards any day against a Willowgeddon deck.
>Red howling mine/stormseeker/winter orb/8 bolts also do not work. I
>can't figure out why but the Necro deck just win and win. How can we
>beat it?
I don't know if it is beatable in a swiss style consistently. The
main reason is the disruption. There are 12 pure disruption cards in
the deck: 4 hymns, 4 strips, 4 disks. This just about gaurantees the
deck a chance against any other deck out there. Then add in the card
drawing ability, and suddenly you have a monster.
George had put together a deck that was anti-necro, but still able to
win against other stuff. G/R with about 30 critters (including 2 or 3
dervishes) and 5 or 6 anti artifact standard in the deck. And it
still only did about 50% against necro. As he put it, in type II you
need to play either necro or anti-necro to stand a chance. And its
obvious that it isn't the lack of skill in this case, since George is
an excellent player.
Actually, one of the things that is bad about the necro decks is that
it takes very little skill to use. The difference between two necro
players will come down to skill (including sideboarding, andd the
minor deck differences)), but between a necro and a non-necro, the
nero player barely has to think and will still be able to win.
Charles
--
Charles T. Schwope | Every man is a spark in the darkness. By the
aka CT | time he is noticed, he is gone forever, a
sch...@infrared.csc.ti.com | retinal afterimage that fades, and is obscured
c-sc...@ti.com | by newer, brighter lights.
Don Carlos Perales
In article <d91-dho....@nada.kth.se>,
Dan Hörning <d91...@nada.kth.se> wrote:
>I also know that Necro becomes much less dangerous when Guerilla Tactics
>introduce the 12 bolts deck to type 2 (along with Diminished Returnings)
>but the Swedish National is two weeks hence and there will be no Alliances
>in that tournament and I have a title to defend...
>
>Dan Horning
>Type 2 Swedish National MTG Champion 1995
>
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. :) I think I've given up trying to come
up with a deck that can consistently win against it. It's pretty solid
all the way around and there is not much that the color hoser cards can
do about it.
Carly
--
------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily anyone's...
Mario Robaina
In article <4n83km$n...@superb.csc.ti.com> c-sc...@ti.com (Charles T. Schwope) writes:
>d91...@nada.kth.se (Dan Hörning) wrote:
>>It happened again yesterday. Local 40-man tourney. 10 Necrodecks. Quarterfinals
>>- seven Necro decks left. The eigth person was Leon Lindback (of pro-tour
>>fame - came 3rd in the New York tournament) who was playing a White Weenie
>>deck as a counter to the Necrodecks that he invented (be aware that Leon
>>and Thomas was the only people in the New York pro tourney that played
>>the Necro decks as they are known today and not with Land Destruction or
>>Sengir Vampires). I don't know how it finished - I was too disgusted. I
>>had played Necro as well but died to another Necro. It comes down only
>>to luck when Necro goes against Necro.
I agree. I've done everything I can think of to set up my Necro deck to
beat others and it gives me a marginal advantage at best. There's just
too much luck in what the draws yield.
> I don't know if it is beatable in a swiss style consistently. The
>main reason is the disruption. There are 12 pure disruption cards in
>the deck: 4 hymns, 4 strips, 4 disks. This just about gaurantees the
>deck a chance against any other deck out there. Then add in the card
>drawing ability, and suddenly you have a monster.
I believe the Necrodeck is the single most powerful deck around against a
general field. It is no surprise that the 3 top Type II players in the
US (according to the DC Ratings), Mark Chalice, Frank Gilson and myself
all have used the Necrodeck as their primary Type II deck.
> Actually, one of the things that is bad about the necro decks is that
>it takes very little skill to use. The difference between two necro
>players will come down to skill (including sideboarding, andd the
>minor deck differences)), but between a necro and a non-necro, the
>nero player barely has to think and will still be able to win.
I agree. After about 5 or 6 games just about anyone can get the hang of
the Necrodeck. It doesn't take a ton of skill to Hymn someones key cards
out of the game. I've played the deck enought that I can play almost
error free after a couple of days without sleep. I played it in the Long
Beach Team competition after back to back nights of no sleep and won
easily 2-0 in both my matches. This weekend I made it to the finals of a
128 man Type II tourny without losing a single game. I lost in the
finals to another Necrodeck.
Later,
Mario Robaina
#3 - DC Type II Rankings
Jon Finkel
Dan Hörning wrote:
>
> It happened again yesterday. Local 40-man tourney. 10 Necrodecks. Quarterfinals
> - seven Necro decks left. The eigth person was Leon Lindback (of pro-tour
> fame - came 3rd in the New York tournament) who was playing a White Weenie
> deck as a counter to the Necrodecks that he invented (be aware that Leon
> and Thomas was the only people in the New York pro tourney that played
> the Necro decks as they are known today and not with Land Destruction or
> Sengir Vampires). I don't know how it finished - I was too disgusted. I
> had played Necro as well but died to another Necro. It comes down only
> to luck when Necro goes against Necro.
>
> can be difficult and that Karma kills you, but that NEVER HAPPENS. The
> Necrodecks can beat any anti-necro deck I have seen. Willowgeddon is
> a joke. I would ante my power cards any day against a Willowgeddon deck.
> Red howling mine/stormseeker/winter orb/8 bolts also do not work. I
> can't figure out why but the Necro deck just win and win. How can we
> beat it?
>
>
> I know White Weenie with 16 protection from black creatures beats Necro
> about 75% of the time. But White Weenie loses to everything else. Or is
> there a WW deck out there that I have not yet seen?
>
> introduce the 12 bolts deck to type 2 (along with Diminished Returnings)
> but the Swedish National is two weeks hence and there will be no Alliances
> in that tournament and I have a title to defend...
>
> Dan Horning
> Type 2 Swedish National MTG Champion 1995
Here's my anti-necro U/W millstone(2nd in NE Regionals). I only played
2 Necrodecks(both in the final 32 elimination, and good decks), but it
seemed to work.
4 Land Tax
3 Disenchant
2 Divine Offerring
4 Plows
2 Wraths(Most necro players only play out 1 or 2 creatures at a time if
they're playing against white)
3 Arrows
2 Icys
2 Millstones
2 Caps
4 Counters
2 Sinks
1 Ivory Tower
1 Zuran Orb
1 Balance
1 Feldon's Cane
2 Recalls
2 COP:Blacks( If nothing else they're Recall Fodder)
2 Jayemdae Tomes
4 Adarkars
9 Plains
8 Islands
61 Cards
Sideboard:
2 COP:Red
2 COP:Green
1 Wrath of God
2 Sleights of Mind
2 Karmas(Replace Millstones)
2 Serras
1 Cap
1 Scepter
2 Conttol Magic
This deck also shuts down W/G, W/G/R, and G/R, even with the wasted
COP:Blacks. Unfortunately I had to beat my friend John Chinnock (who I
took this deck from and changed only about 5 cards) and his necro deck
on my way to losing to another friend and his (surprise) White Weenie
deck, Dave Bachman.
PS It usually needs it's sideboard to win
Michael John Falkner
Dan Hörning (d91...@nada.kth.se) wrote:
: So how do we beat Necropotence? Consistently? Yes, I know Goblin Decks
Land Tax/Land's Edge -- Black CAN'T deal with enchantments without blowing
up it's own Necro.
Storm Seekers on his discard phase -- make his cards cost 2.
Land Destruction -- he can't cast what he doesn't have the mana for.
: can be difficult and that Karma kills you, but that NEVER HAPPENS. The
: Necrodecks can beat any anti-necro deck I have seen. Willowgeddon is
: a joke. I would ante my power cards any day against a Willowgeddon deck.
You need a deck with few mana needed. I have a deck I'm taking to the
Chicago qualifier that works on 3 1/2 mana, as it's creator said. It works
on 3, but sometimes needs four. Given that it has some nasty side effects...
: Has anyone seriously tried out Manabarbs? Kormus Bell?
Barbs? You'd need alternative mana sources. Barbs and a SS could be very
interesting with Elves and Birds, should both survive.
: I know White Weenie with 16 protection from black creatures beats Necro
: about 75% of the time. But White Weenie loses to everything else. Or is
: there a WW deck out there that I have not yet seen?
That's the problem. White Weenie needs the help that Alliances gives it.
: I also know that Necro becomes much less dangerous when Guerilla Tactics
: introduce the 12 bolts deck to type 2 (along with Diminished Returnings)
: but the Swedish National is two weeks hence and there will be no Alliances
: in that tournament and I have a title to defend...
And I fear you may lose that title unless you think fast, to a horde of
Necro decks. Why do you think that's one of the most popular cards in
MtG tournaments??
==========================================================================
Mike Falkner, mfal...@csd.uwm.edu Milwaukee, Wisconsin
"The Electric Youth Renegade" D.G.I.F. #10769
WWW: http://www.uwm.edu/~mfalkner No quotes. (No room!! =))
==========================================================================
Michael John Falkner
Charles T. Schwope (c-sc...@ti.com) wrote:
: Actually, one of the things that is bad about the necro decks is that
: it takes very little skill to use. The difference between two necro
: players will come down to skill (including sideboarding, andd the
: minor deck differences)), but between a necro and a non-necro, the
: nero player barely has to think and will still be able to win.
Why bother trying then? I mean, let's be honest -- more often than not, I'd
disenchant the necros to be sure.
I mean, with this attitude, what's to say that the Worlds wouldn't be [if
Type II] 30% WillowGeddon and 70% Necro??
Alex Rhomberg
Michael John Falkner wrote:
>
> Dan Hörning (d91...@nada.kth.se) wrote:
>
> : So how do we beat Necropotence? Consistently? Yes, I know Goblin Decks
>
> Land Tax/Land's Edge -- Black CAN'T deal with enchantments without blowing
> up it's own Necro.
I never hesitate a second on blowing the disk if I want to, just because my necro
bites the dust. Necroing two times is much already. I like to play necro, disk,
get cards. Then in my next upkeep get more cards (if necessary), blow the disk,
get a free draw. I got two turns with a hand full of cards. You got some land on
the table and nothing in hand. Besides, before blowing the disk, I could even
throw some excess land at you, that I just drew with the necro. The Ivory
Tower/Necro combo is something I'd like to stay on the table. But if it has to go,
it has to go. remember, I'm the one with tons of useful cards in hand after the
disk.
> Storm Seekers on his discard phase -- make his cards cost 2.
these are ugly
> Land Destruction -- he can't cast what he doesn't have the mana for.
If I draw two or three cards a turn, I draw more land than you draw land
destruction.
> : can be difficult and that Karma kills you, but that NEVER HAPPENS. The
> : Necrodecks can beat any anti-necro deck I have seen. Willowgeddon is
> : a joke. I would ante my power cards any day against a Willowgeddon deck.
>
> You need a deck with few mana needed. I have a deck I'm taking to the
> Chicago qualifier that works on 3 1/2 mana, as it's creator said. It works
> on 3, but sometimes needs four. Given that it has some nasty side effects...
I'm thinking about a total cheese deck. Hurricanes hurt, as the necro looses two
life (cards) and the hyppies. Earthquake to get rid of weenies. Jokulhaups to get
rid of land. Pyroclasm against more weenies. Disks against combo freaks. And bolts
to finish him off. Some Ernies to taste (dont let him put out his creature
defense.
> : Has anyone seriously tried out Manabarbs? Kormus Bell?
>
> Barbs? You'd need alternative mana sources. Barbs and a SS could be very
> interesting with Elves and Birds, should both survive.
How interesting could an Armageddon/Manabarb/Ankh of Mishra/Mana creatures deck
be?
> And I fear you may lose that title unless you think fast, to a horde of
> Necro decks. Why do you think that's one of the most popular cards in
> MtG tournaments??
Lucky me, they were pretty easy to trade in.
--
_________________________________________________________________
/ \
| Alex Rhomberg Tel: +41 1 632 49 18 |
| Institut fuer Elektronik Fax: +41 1 632 12 10 |
| ETH Zuerich Zentrale: +41 1 632 11 11 |
| Gloriastrasse 35 |
| 8006 Zuerich email: rhom...@ife.ee.ethz.ch |
\_________________________________________________________________/
Charles T. Schwope
mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) wrote:
>Charles T. Schwope (c-sc...@ti.com) wrote:
>: Actually, one of the things that is bad about the necro decks is that
>: it takes very little skill to use. The difference between two necro
>: players will come down to skill (including sideboarding, andd the
>: minor deck differences)), but between a necro and a non-necro, the
>: nero player barely has to think and will still be able to win.
>Why bother trying then? I mean, let's be honest -- more often than not, I'd
>disenchant the necros to be sure.
Please disenchant my necros. :) I've already gotten a 5 or so card
advantage out of it, and I don't mind it going away.
The best move against necro is the disenchant whatever artifact is
being used to offset the necro: ivory tower, zuran orb, or the disk.
>I mean, with this attitude, what's to say that the Worlds wouldn't be [if
>Type II] 30% WillowGeddon and 70% Necro??
Actually, World's probably won't be. By then Alliances will be legal,
and whatever restriction is done to stop necro will be in place.
Nationals (for USA) will even have the appropriate restrictions in
place (if I'm right... restrictions come out 6/1, go into effect 7/1
nationals is 1st weekend in july) to stop necro if the DC so desires.
Which of course raises the question: were the restriction dates
choosen so that the 1st real tourneys with the new restirctions would
be US Nationals? (Kind of evil, but also very neat if the restrict the
power cards Tax and necro.)
Alan D Kohler
In article <sprmarioD...@netcom.com>, sprm...@netcom.com says...
>
>I believe the Necrodeck is the single most powerful deck around against a
>general field. It is no surprise that the 3 top Type II players in the
>US (according to the DC Ratings), Mark Chalice, Frank Gilson and myself
>all have used the Necrodeck as their primary Type II deck.
Er, I thought Adam was in the top 3 (Which doesn't dilute your point any -
he used a necrodeck to take the PT qualifier in Orlando)
--
Alan D Kohler
hwk...@poky.srv.net
"you die, she dies, everybody dies." Roy, in Heavy Metal
(Also uttered by myself whenever using a nevy's disk)
Vincent Saldell
d91...@nada.kth.se (Dan Horning) writes:
>It happened again yesterday. Local 40-man tourney. 10 Necrodecks. Quarterfinals
>- seven Necro decks left. The eigth person was Leon Lindback (of pro-tour
>fame - came 3rd in the New York tournament) who was playing a White Weenie
>deck as a counter to the Necrodecks that he invented (be aware that Leon
>and Thomas was the only people in the New York pro tourney that played
>the Necro decks as they are known today and not with Land Destruction or
>Sengir Vampires). I don't know how it finished - I was too disgusted. I
>had played Necro as well but died to another Necro. It comes down only
>to luck when Necro goes against Necro.
>So how do we beat Necropotence? Consistently? Yes, I know Goblin Decks
>can be difficult and that Karma kills you, but that NEVER HAPPENS. The
[snip]
>Dan Horning
>Type 2 Swedish National MTG Champion 1995
I think there is nothing much to do about necropotencedecks.
They are tough, consistant and very fast. Its possible to beat
them with decks that are designed to kill necrodecks, but the
hymns and spectres are really good in disrupting most decks.
Especially good to wreck havoc together with necropotence,
since they draw so many cards.
Also you cannot count on keeping cards for any combos in your
hand, and if they start good (ie. dark ritual/hymn, hymn,
spectre) they allmost allways autowin vs. any deck.
However, swedish nationals are coming up in 1.5 weeks, lets
see if we meet again there (I beat you last time we met, you
remember? Hehe) :-)
I might have a joker up my sleeve against necro, if I dont
get stomped in the qualification rounds.
I can assure you one thing though - Ill be nervous as hell! :)
What fun it would be though if everyone will play anti-necro
and noone dares to play a necrodeck - bet Leon will not play
necropotence :)
-Vincent Saldell
Mario Robaina
In article <4naa59$3...@mars.hyperk.com> hwk...@poky.srv.net (Alan D Kohler) writes:
>In article <sprmarioD...@netcom.com>, sprm...@netcom.com says...
>>
>
>>I believe the Necrodeck is the single most powerful deck around against a
>>general field. It is no surprise that the 3 top Type II players in the
>>US (according to the DC Ratings), Mark Chalice, Frank Gilson and myself
>>all have used the Necrodeck as their primary Type II deck.
>
>
>
>
>Er, I thought Adam was in the top 3 (Which doesn't dilute your point any -
>he used a necrodeck to take the PT qualifier in Orlando)
>
ratings and #2 (i think) in the combined Type II/Sealed list. Congrats
to Adam BTW for being the only non Los Angeles guy in the Top 5 (of the
Type II list. (Scott Johns is #5 BTW)
Later,
Mario.
Jacob Jost
Don Carlos Perales (dper...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu) wrote:
: In article <d91-dho....@nada.kth.se>,
: Dan Hörning <d91...@nada.kth.se> wrote:
: >I also know that Necro becomes much less dangerous when Guerilla Tactics
: >introduce the 12 bolts deck to type 2 (along with Diminished Returnings)
: >but the Swedish National is two weeks hence and there will be no Alliances
: >in that tournament and I have a title to defend...
: >Dan Horning
: >Type 2 Swedish National MTG Champion 1995
: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. :) I think I've given up trying to come
: up with a deck that can consistently win against it. It's pretty solid
: all the way around and there is not much that the color hoser cards can
: do about it.
: Carly
: --
: ------------------------------------------------------------
: The opinions expressed above are not necessarily anyone's...
DROUGHT!! I carry 1 in my main deck (WW)+ 3 Karmas and 3 COP:Blacks in my
SB. Yeah, I know, disk, disk, disk, but I pack Disenchants!
--
"Follow me," the wise man said, but he walked behind.-Leonard Cohen
Ich bin das Eiermann, sie sind die Eiermaenner, Ich bin das Walross!
A Christian Republican is a vegetarian jackal- Jacob Jost
jj...@freenet.columbus.oh.us= das Walross
Samuel Stoddard
Jacob Jost (jj...@freenet.columbus.oh.us) wrote:
: Don Carlos Perales (dper...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu) wrote:
: : In article <d91-dho....@nada.kth.se>,
: : Dan Hörning <d91...@nada.kth.se> wrote:
: : >I also know that Necro becomes much less dangerous when Guerilla Tactics
: : >introduce the 12 bolts deck to type 2 (along with Diminished Returnings)
: : >but the Swedish National is two weeks hence and there will be no Alliances
: : >in that tournament and I have a title to defend...
: : >
: : >Dan Horning
: : >Type 2 Swedish National MTG Champion 1995
: : >
: : If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. :) I think I've given up trying to come
: : up with a deck that can consistently win against it. It's pretty solid
: : all the way around and there is not much that the color hoser cards can
: : do about it.
: : Carly
: : --
: : ------------------------------------------------------------
: : The opinions expressed above are not necessarily anyone's...
Uh, no. Necro dosent have B in its casting cost, and they will have (if
the deck is worth shit) have 4 disenchants in them. The best bet is Cursed
Rack.
: DROUGHT!! I carry 1 in my main deck (WW)+ 3 Karmas and 3 COP:Blacks in my
: SB. Yeah, I know, disk, disk, disk, but I pack Disenchants!
: --
: "Follow me," the wise man said, but he walked behind.-Leonard Cohen
: Ich bin das Eiermann, sie sind die Eiermaenner, Ich bin das Walross!
: A Christian Republican is a vegetarian jackal- Jacob Jost
: jj...@freenet.columbus.oh.us= das Walross
--
"No one holds command over me. No man. No god. No Prince. What is claim of
age for ones who are immortal? What is claim of power for ones who defy
death? Call your damnable hunt. We shall se who I drag screaming to hell
with me." -Gunther Dorn, Das Ungeheur Darin. Vampire The Masquerade
alamarch
>I believe the Necrodeck is the single most powerful deck around against a
>general field. It is no surprise that the 3 top Type II players in the
>US (according to the DC Ratings), Mark Chalice, Frank Gilson and myself
>all have used the Necrodeck as their primary Type II deck.
What do people think about Thelon's chant in a GW willowgeddon side
board? The three damage or the -1/-1 counters really hurts two aspects
of a necrodeck.
art
The Truth is out there and it is knowable
EE...@aol.com
Most Necros use an artifact to offset the life loss, and there are few
things better (none in type 2) at dealing with artifacts than Energy
Flux. Overlooked, and underused because people want to be able to use
artifacts of their own.
J Dudley Hunkins
alam...@moose.uvm.edu (alamarch) writes:
>What do people think about Thelon's chant in a GW willowgeddon side
>board? The three damage or the -1/-1 counters really hurts two aspects
>of a necrodeck.
It does have its merits, I dropped it however for the simple reason that
a mono black necro probably will have a sufficient number of swamps out
by the time I get the chant in play. Granted, it might slow them down,
but I suspect a couple of creatures would bite the dust to make way for
the mana which would follow with even more creatures.
The chant is nice, but I'd rather have Karma, Freyalise's Charm, Lifeforce,
Storm Seeker, Cursed Rack, or Vice in the sideboard.
--
J "Dudley" Hunkins
PGP info available through finger or email dud...@pobox.com
Stephen Redford (student)
>> Storm Seekers on his discard phase -- make his cards cost 2.
>life (cards) and the hyppies. Earthquake to get rid of weenies. Jokulhaups to get
>rid of land. Pyroclasm against more weenies. Disks against combo freaks. And bolts
>to finish him off. Some Ernies to taste (dont let him put out his creature
>defense.
Most necro-decks rely on hordes of orders. The main principle is through
card advantage. Ah, but we all knew that...
Well, nullify that advantage. I play with two wrath of gods (1 in sideboard),
and 3 sandstorms (normally all three in sideboard unless I play against a
hoardie type deck). Seems to work.
Stephen
Alan Cade
dud...@ksu.ksu.edu (J Dudley Hunkins) wrote:
>The chant is nice, but I'd rather have Karma, Freyalise's Charm, Lifeforce,
>Storm Seeker, Cursed Rack, or Vice in the sideboard.
Cursed Rack???? Ineffective.
-Chris Cade
"Victim's, aren't we all?"
Steve Unruh
In article <4np466$s...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Let me just say at the South Central Regionals list last weekend NOBODY was
effective against Necro decks. they went #1 and #2.
--
He who laughs last thinks slowest!
Windows '95 has all of the properties of a virus, with the sole exception
being it hardly ever installs correctly or without intervention!
J.P. Alarie
In the qualifier for the pro tour this weekend in TO I was playing a
Necro deck and got slammed by a green-red which used Mana Barbs. It
almost totally shut me down! Nasty card...
J-P
Alan Cade
sun...@io.com (Steve Unruh) wrote:
>Let me just say at the South Central Regionals list last weekend NOBODY was
>effective against Necro decks. they went #1 and #2.
Yeah- I know how that is. This weekend at the San Jose Pro-Qualifier, the
top 6 of 8 final Open players were playing NecroDecks. The final 4
Juniors were all playing Necro... go figure. My deck has been fairly
effective against Necro, but I only went 5-1 with 12 game wins. I needed
14 wins to get into the final 8. Oh well... maybe next time.
Alan Cade
Of all the decks in Type 2, only 1 scares me... White Weenie. My
sideboard can deal with Necro, but white weenie is too fast. If I can
survive the initial onslaught though, white weenie goes down the tubes.
Matt Dickinson
Alan Cade wrote:
>
> dud...@ksu.ksu.edu (J Dudley Hunkins) wrote:
>
> >The chant is nice, but I'd rather have Karma, Freyalise's Charm, Lifeforce,
> >Storm Seeker, Cursed Rack, or Vice in the sideboard.
>
> Cursed Rack???? Ineffective.
>
>
> "Victim's, aren't we all?"Yup, Cursed Rack isn't very good, i've had it played against me whn i'm
using necro. All it does is slow your card drawing down a bit, it's more
annoying than anything else. My thoughts on beating a necro deck is BLUE
- you can counter the necro, controll their hippies, vampires, ishans (
contrll magic is sooo mean against necro, that is probably my biggest
fear when i play necro, more so than dervish. I find i can get rid of
dervish or stop it quite easily. But controll magic is another thing once
they controll your creature it's their's and you have to blow it up ! )
so i think a deck with blue, it would have to be backed up with red for
bolts incinerate etc and maybee a touch of green for erhnies and archers.
Here is a deck that i find to be fairly consistent against necro and also
beats all other deck types fairly consistently ( although it can have
problems with willogeddon decks.. )
4 Erhnams
4 Archers
3 Birds
4 Bolts
3 Incinerates
3 Fireballs
2 Shatter
1 Detonate
4 Counterspell
3 Powersink
3 Controll Magic
2 Nev's Disk
1 Zorb
4 Mishra's Factory
8 Islands
4 City of Brass
2 Karplusan Forests
3 Mountain
3 Forests
The Sideboard could go something like this
3 Serrated Arrows
3 Gloom ( with cities and birds ), big suprise against white players :)
2 COP red
3 REB's
1 Jesters Cap
2 Shater
1 Controll Magic
any comments on this deck would be greatly appreciated, especially for
against willowgeddon, cuz it seems to handle necro very effectively
Matt Dickinson
Remy Evard
In article <4nrji9$j...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Alan...@worldnet.att.net says...
And at the Pro-Qualifiers in Chicago, the top two were also Necro,
although one of them wasn't all black.
Of the top 8, there were the only two Necro decks. Of the top 16, there
were probably 6 or 7...
-r'm
Alan Cade
I think it is pretty easy to see where Type 2 is headed. Either Necro, or
Anti-Necro if you want to win. If you play almost anything else, you
don't really want to win, so you play a lesser deck to retain your honor.
Ayesha Tanaka
In article <4nrji9$j...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Alan Cade <Alan...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
|> Yeah- I know how that is. This weekend at the San Jose Pro-Qualifier, the
|> top 6 of 8 final Open players were playing NecroDecks. The final 4
|> Juniors were all playing Necro... go figure. My deck has been fairly
|> effective against Necro, but I only went 5-1 with 12 game wins. I needed
|> 14 wins to get into the final 8. Oh well... maybe next time.
What is the Convocation thinking? In all these years of magic, I've never
heard one card dominating more tournaments than necropotence. Like, wasn't
this their primary criterion for restriction? That fad of Balance decks
wasn't even close to this before Balance got restricted.
Of course, WotC wouldn't want to cut into their IA sales with a restriction...
Alan Cade
I found out today, that the winner's in both Juniors and Open devisions
were playing NecroDecks. I choose to play my Argageddon deck because it
is the only original deck that can win in my area. Nobody else plays it.
Nobody else wins with anything similar. Granted it can have some
problems with Necro, but for the most part, if you don't Hymn me second
turn, you lose. WOTC restricts cards when they dominate a playing
environment, or disbalance the environment. On June 1st, we'll probably
see the results of a new Type 2 restricted list. If Necropotence isn't on
there, then I'll bet a lot of people will revert back to red/green. I
recently built a red/green deck, not for tourney play, just for ante play
against Necrodecks. Its got 8 bolts, 4 ernhams, 4 Fynhorn Elves, 3 storm
seekers, 3 Uthden Trolls, 2 Eron The Relentless, 3 Nevi's Disks, and then
a couple Jalum Tomes and a few shatters. It hits hard, but not
necessarily fast. It is more of a control deck, but against Necro, the
direct damage seems to ignore their creatures for some odd reason...
People are being forced to play one of two deck types if they wish to win
tournaments, Necro, or Anti-Necro. It's a shame to see the tournament
environment dominated by such diversity in deck styles. (Great sarcasm
intended!!! :)
Matt Dickinson
Alan Cade wrote:
>
> ev...@mcs.anl.gov (Remy Evard) wrote:
> >In article <4nrji9$j...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Alan...@worldnet.att.net says...
> >>
> >>sun...@io.com (Steve Unruh) wrote:
> >>
> >>>Let me just say at the South Central Regionals list last weekend NOBODY was
> >>>effective against Necro decks. they went #1 and #2.
> >>
> >>top 6 of 8 final Open players were playing NecroDecks. The final 4
> >>Juniors were all playing Necro... go figure. My deck has been fairly
> >>effective against Necro, but I only went 5-1 with 12 game wins. I needed
> >>14 wins to get into the final 8. Oh well... maybe next time.
> >
> >although one of them wasn't all black.
> >
> >Of the top 8, there were the only two Necro decks. Of the top 16, there
> >were probably 6 or 7...
>
> I think it is pretty easy to see where Type 2 is headed. Either Necro, or
> Anti-Necro if you want to win. If you play almost anything else, you
> don't really want to win, so you play a lesser deck to retain your honor.
>
>
> "Victim's, aren't we all?"
Hey ! , how about this deck, i would hardly call it anti necro and it
fairs very well aainst most deck types.
4 Erhnams
4 Archers
3 Birds
4 Bolts
3 Incinerates
3 Fireballs
2 Shatter
1 Detonate
4 Counterspell
3 Powersink
3 Controll Magic
2 Nev's Disk
1 Zorb
4 Mishra's Factory
8 Islands
4 City of Brass
2 Karplusan Forests
3 Mountain
3 Forests
Sideboard ( very unstable, but can lok something like this )
3 BeB's
1 Controll Magic
1 Tranquility
2 Cop Red
3 Gloom
3 serrated arrows
2 Icy's
so what do ya's all think of it ? any comments would be great !
thanks
Matt Dickinson
STEVEN L FORSYTHE
>contrll magic is sooo mean against necro, that is probably my biggest
>fear when i play necro, more so than dervish. ....
I thought that a Blue Tim (don't laugh), control deck might do quite well
against necro decks. It might look something like:
4 Control Magic
2 Binding Grasps
7 Tim's
4 Counter Spells
1 Flood
2 boomerang
1 Disk
3 unsummon
1 gassious form
1 Deflection
1 walking Wall
1 Air Elementals (or M.J)
1 library of leng
1 Juxtapose
1 IT
1 Z. O.
4 Strip Mines
4 Mishra's
20 islands/blue producing lands
possibly some cheaper defensive creatures, a Jayodome Tome, a steal artifact,
felwar stone. etc.
I haven't had a chance to test things, but I think it has a reasonable chance
to be an effective deck. What do you think?
Steve Forsythe
STEVEN L FORSYTHE
In article <31A513...@healey.com.au> Matt Dickinson <ma...@healey.com.au> writes:
>From: Matt Dickinson <ma...@healey.com.au>
>Subject: Re: How to beat Necropotence decks? Consistently? (type 2)
>Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:40:36 -0700
>Matt Dickinson
Have you considered g/u with tims for dd and unsummons to protect your
creatures and deal with 1st turn hippies?
Steve Forsyhe
Brian Wilson
Before I could do anything to stop it, Alan Cade wrote:
> I think it is pretty easy to see where Type 2 is headed. Either Necro, or
> Anti-Necro if you want to win. If you play almost anything else, you
> don't really want to win, so you play a lesser deck to retain your honor.
It used to be all I ever read about here were U/W "The Deck" clones, and
how that's all Type II was made up of. Now it's Necro. If we're all
patient, this should change over time (at the very least because Ice Age
will rotate out of Type II), and some new style of deck will move in.
Sometimes it pays to back up and look at the long view of Magic history.
Used to be, on these news groups, there was always some card that had
fallen in disfavor because it was ruining the game. These days this is
still true, but there are also deck archetypes that are in disfavor as
well. How many of the same cards and decks that were problematic six or
eight months ago are still as problematic now? Magic is a dynamic game.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
There may be no one, there may be someone, there may be anyone, but there
is no "noone."
Matt Dickinson
hmmm yeah tims are very good against necro decks, i might think about
sqeezing a couple in. But i still find that the red is great esp. for
dealing with hippies and delivering the final hammer ! . I'm not a fan of
unsummons, i don't really like them, i'd rather bolt or STP them :)...
thanks
Matt Dickinson
Alan Cade
Matt Dickinson <ma...@healey.com.au> wrote:
>Alan Cade wrote:
>>
>> ev...@mcs.anl.gov (Remy Evard) wrote:
>> >In article <4nrji9$j...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Alan...@worldnet.att.net says...
>> >>
>> >>sun...@io.com (Steve Unruh) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Let me just say at the South Central Regionals list last weekend NOBODY was
>> >>>effective against Necro decks. they went #1 and #2.
>> >>
>> >>Yeah- I know how that is. This weekend at the San Jose Pro-Qualifier, the
>> >>top 6 of 8 final Open players were playing NecroDecks. The final 4
>> >>Juniors were all playing Necro... go figure. My deck has been fairly
>> >>effective against Necro, but I only went 5-1 with 12 game wins. I needed
>> >>14 wins to get into the final 8. Oh well... maybe next time.
>> >
>> >And at the Pro-Qualifiers in Chicago, the top two were also Necro,
>> >although one of them wasn't all black.
>> >
>> >Of the top 8, there were the only two Necro decks. Of the top 16, there
>> >were probably 6 or 7...
>>
>> Anti-Necro if you want to win. If you play almost anything else, you
>> don't really want to win, so you play a lesser deck to retain your honor.
>>
>>
>> "Victim's, aren't we all?"
>
You have retained your honor, Matt-san. :)
Alan Cade
>> Anti-Necro if you want to win. If you play almost anything else, you
>> don't really want to win, so you play a lesser deck to retain your honor.
>
>how that's all Type II was made up of. Now it's Necro. If we're all
>patient, this should change over time (at the very least because Ice Age
>will rotate out of Type II), and some new style of deck will move in.
>
>Sometimes it pays to back up and look at the long view of Magic history.
>Used to be, on these news groups, there was always some card that had
>fallen in disfavor because it was ruining the game. These days this is
>still true, but there are also deck archetypes that are in disfavor as
>well. How many of the same cards and decks that were problematic six or
>eight months ago are still as problematic now? Magic is a dynamic game.
So true. So true. Just give it time. If WOTC thinks it's too powerful,
they'll restrict it. If not, the players will find a way around it. Then
the environment will change. Only time will tell...
Fred Meyerhofer
red...@egoli.min.wits.ac.za (Stephen Redford (student)) wrote:
>>> Storm Seekers on his discard phase -- make his cards cost 2.
>>> Land Destruction -- he can't cast what he doesn't have the mana for.
Staying with the Storm Seeker and LD im going to try an all Green
in the next tournement. Here are the cards I can remember.
6 Elves - fast mana
3 Erhnam - big creature
4 Thermokarst - ld
2 Forgotten Lore - regrowth
1 Stunted Growth - Just incase I actully get them to no land
3 Storm Seekers - After draw or before discard
2 Dervish - vs black
1 Elvish Archer - fs
3 Scav Folk - vs that damn disk
3 Woolly Spiders - vs flying
1 Hurricane - vs flying
1 Winter Blast - vs Flying - to tap theres and attack
2 Sand Storm - Most Necro seem to use the Knights
1 Sylvan Library - why not
2 Serrated Arrows - More for the Knights
2 Disk - just incase
1 Vise - vs necro or blue
1 Zuran orb
1 Cane
4 Strip
4 Mishras
12 Forest
Sideboard:
2 Tranquility - vs White COPs
2 Caps - vs anything
2 Dancing Scimitar - vs willogeddon
2 Lifeforce - vs black
2 Crumble
1 Cane
1 Hurricane
1 Sand Storm - vs WW or Necro knights
1 Disk
1 Concordant Crossroads - vs creatureless
Helen Childress
I modified the Necrotest deck I posted a while ago (per someone's
suggestions here -- thanks), and played it against my husband's red/white
Goblin deck. Once he got the Warrens out and disenchanted the disks, he
pretty easily won. A huge swarm of 1/1 token goblins did it for him (and
a few grenades). And an Orcish Librarian helped him pull out the bolts
after he serrated arrows my Vampire to a 3/3. The other Vampire fell to
a balloon brigade + bolt. His hand was empty on turn three, so Hymns
were just sitting in my hand. All in all, the goblin deck seemed to hold
its own against Necro.
Jacob Woltersdorf
just wait until June 1. Ice Age will supposedly be no longer
available by then anyways.
Michael Salovaara
In article <4o0emq$a...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, c...@athena.mit.edu (Ayesha Tanaka) says:
>
>In article <4nrji9$j...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Alan Cade <Alan...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>|> top 6 of 8 final Open players were playing NecroDecks. The final 4
>|> Juniors were all playing Necro... go figure. My deck has been fairly
>|> effective against Necro, but I only went 5-1 with 12 game wins. I needed
>|> 14 wins to get into the final 8. Oh well... maybe next time.
>
>heard one card dominating more tournaments than necropotence. Like, wasn't
>this their primary criterion for restriction? That fad of Balance decks
>wasn't even close to this before Balance got restricted.
>Of course, WotC wouldn't want to cut into their IA sales with a restriction...
I really dont't think the Necropotence is the biggest problem here. I
think it is the Necropotence combined with the Hymn To Tourach. I
don't mind playing against Necros as log as I don't get Hymned all
the time.
Colclusion: RESTRICT the Hymn!!!
Alan Cade
That is totally true. The Hymn is the problem, not the Potence. I think
everybody should write to d...@wizards.com, and get them to restrict the
Hymn. It is the single most devastating card in Type 2 (Besides Balance).
The Hymn is a no-skill card that anybody can use to win. If WOTC wants
Type 2 to be diverse, the Hymn has got to go. At Nationals, all WOTC will
see is NecroDecks if it doesn't get restricted. Potence isn't dominating
the tourney environment, the Hymn is. RESTRICT THE HYMN.
Alan Cade
Pillsbur...@msn.com (Jacob Woltersdorf) wrote:
>just wait until June 1. Ice Age will supposedly be no longer
>available by then anyways.
Maybe not, but I don't think they'll pull Ice Age from Type 2 for a while.
Also, it isn't the Necropotence that wins most games, it is the Hymn to
Tourach. This weekend I went 5-1 at CA Regionals, and 4-2 at PT3
Qualifer. All three matches I lost were because of lucky Hymn to
Tourachs. For example, at the PT3 Qualifier, I was 3-0. Then I had to
play 2 NecroDecks. Between those two matches, I was Hymnes twice in the
first four turns in FIVE of the six games I played against them total.
The Necro didn't kill me, the Hymn did. Potence is balanced without the
Hymn. With the Hymn, neither will ever be balanced.
Brian Kreulen
>the time.
>Colclusion: RESTRICT the Hymn!!!
Jeez, might as well just ban the card for all the worth one hymn is
gonna do in a deck......
Brian Kreulen
mar...@wilmington.net
Murphy's 2nd Law of Battle: Incoming fire ALWAYS has the right of way
Black holes are just God dividing the universe by zero
http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/b/bakreule/www/index.html
Alan Cade
mar...@wilmington.net (Brian Kreulen) wrote:
>
>>the time.
>>Colclusion: RESTRICT the Hymn!!!
>
>Jeez, might as well just ban the card for all the worth one hymn is
>gonna do in a deck......
That would be fine by me too.
Dan O'Leary
>Maybe not, but I don't think they'll pull Ice Age from Type 2 for a while.
Not for at least a year, probably more like 18 months. Just look at
FE. Just when it was supposed to roll out of Type II Wizards decided
that they had way too many on their hands and extended it
indefinitely. Hymn is still around because Wizards wants to sell the
huge backstock of FE cards. Good luck.
- Dan / n-Space, Inc.
Proth51146
How long is FE due to stay in the T2 rotation anyway? The reason Necro is
so good is that black has so many ways to get card superiority. Be it
Hymn, Necro, specters or even Consultations for any of these, Black (and
to a degree white with all its mass destruction spells and tax) needs to
be weakend(sp?) a little. Restrict the hymn, restrict potence, rotate out
FE or IA, or introduce equally effective ways to obtain card superiority
for the other colors (in mirage maybe), but WoTC has to do something about
the Type 2 environment.
-Oliver Rothschild
Alan Cade
I agree. I think the Hymn should be resticted, along with Land Tax.
Maybe even Armageddon because it is extremely abusive, and is very
prevalent among the non-Necro winning decks and often wins games when
cast.
Jim Ferraiolo
In article <4od752$2...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Alan Cade <Alan...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>mic...@goldpen.se (Michael Salovaara) wrote:
>>In article <4o0emq$a...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, c...@athena.mit.edu (Ayesha Tanaka) says:
>>>
>>>In article <4nrji9$j...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Alan Cade <Alan...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>>|> Yeah- I know how that is. This weekend at the San Jose Pro-Qualifier, the
>>>|> top 6 of 8 final Open players were playing NecroDecks. The final 4
>>>|> Juniors were all playing Necro... go figure. My deck has been fairly
>>>|> effective against Necro, but I only went 5-1 with 12 game wins. I needed
>>>|> 14 wins to get into the final 8. Oh well... maybe next time.
>>>
>>>What is the Convocation thinking? In all these years of magic, I've never
>>>heard one card dominating more tournaments than necropotence. Like, wasn't
>>>this their primary criterion for restriction? That fad of Balance decks
>>>wasn't even close to this before Balance got restricted.
>>>Of course, WotC wouldn't want to cut into their IA sales with a restriction...
>>
>>
>>I really dont't think the Necropotence is the biggest problem here. I
>>think it is the Necropotence combined with the Hymn To Tourach. I
>>don't mind playing against Necros as log as I don't get Hymned all
>>Colclusion: RESTRICT the Hymn!!!
>
>everybody should write to d...@wizards.com, and get them to restrict the
>Hymn. It is the single most devastating card in Type 2 (Besides Balance).
>The Hymn is a no-skill card that anybody can use to win. If WOTC wants
>Type 2 to be diverse, the Hymn has got to go. At Nationals, all WOTC will
>see is NecroDecks if it doesn't get restricted. Potence isn't dominating
>the tourney environment, the Hymn is. RESTRICT THE HYMN.
>
>
>"Victim's, aren't we all?"
>
I'm tired of hearing all this crap about the Hymn being an all luck, no
skill card. Also, people that play necrodecks are not 'bad' players for
doing so. I've played a number of different styles of deck, and my
necrodeck is the MOST consistent winner. In case you didn't notice,
magic is part luck and part skill. The cards you get are RANDOMLY
decided by how you shuffle your deck (unless you cheat). When you are
'lucky' enough to get one of your 4 hymns in your opening hand, you use
it. The power of the hymn is that it takes your luck and trades it into
1 card of yours for 2 cards of his. Whether you get a 'lucky' pull
doesn't matter because maybe you were lucky enough to draw your hymn, but
maybe he was lucky enough to draw his tower, balance, armageddon, etc
etc. It seems to me that you're just bitching and on this anti-hymn
crusade because you've lost to it too many times. LUCK is part of magic,
and it always will be. You can't eliminate all the random chance from
magic or else the game wouldn't be the same. All this shit about the
hymn being unbalanced is just whining because necrodecks are currently
dominating the field. I think that when alliances comes out, you'll see
a shift in deck designs. Then, when you're worried about losing your
favorite card to a hymn, put it under the fucking Gustha's scepter and
stop crying.
Jay Shergill
Alan Cade (Alan...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: I agree. I think the Hymn should be resticted, along with Land Tax.
: prevalent among the non-Necro winning decks and often wins games when
: cast.
: "Victim's, aren't we all?"
Ok, I agree with the Land Tax, and I am undecided about the Hymn. But,
come on??? Armageddon? It destroys *everyone's* land, not just yours!!!
Your opponent just makes a point of being in a better situation when it
goes off... This *is* a balanced card. So what if it is prevelant in
non-Necro decks? So is disenchant, and that is a nice card. Let the
game have a few powerful cards. I mean, not every new expansion set has
to dilute the powerful cards by making them Legends, giving them
obscene casting costs, having cumulative upkeep, or making them remove
themselves from the game. I would like to see a cheap powerful card that
I can use. Who cares if it is a "No-Brainer" Braingyser doesn't take
that much strategy either. You don't really have to think about where or
when a bolt goes off, or how to SToP a creature. So, this is my
argument: let there be strong cards in type II magic. This wasn't meant
as a flame directed at anyone, just my opinions on the matter... Anyhow...
Jay Shergill
Alan Cade
Jay-
I think you missed my point here. First of all, Armageddon was a
maybe. Simply because a good argument could be made, but I don't want
to get into that here. But my point in responding here is to point out
that it takes *great* skill often to know when to STP a creature. This is
because of the psychological tactics used to maximize your STP. Often, by
taking excess points of damage, I can lure my opponent into casting
Armageddon when they have a creature dealing damage to me. Then I STP it.
To win takes skill (unless you use the Hymn), and so does using the tools
within the deck. STP is not mindless- if you want to win with it, rather
than just kill creatures. I have had a well timed STP actually be a game
winner for me in Pro-Qualifiers. I guess it just takes the right
mentality.
Alan Cade
jfe...@mv.mv.com (Jim Ferraiolo) wrote:
>I'm tired of hearing all this crap about the Hymn being an all luck, no
>skill card.
But it is. How can you possibly argue any differently. It is all luck-
because it is random.
Also, people that play necrodecks are not 'bad' players for
>doing so.
Very true. Some of the best players in the world are playing NecroDecks.
But so are some of the worst, and it is a shame to see many unskilled
players be able to pick up a deck and win solely on luck, and be able to
beat the best players in the world.
I've played a number of different styles of deck, and my
>necrodeck is the MOST consistent winner. In case you didn't notice,
>magic is part luck and part skill.
Really?? I was totally unaware of that.
The cards you get are RANDOMLY
>decided by how you shuffle your deck (unless you cheat). When you are
>'lucky' enough to get one of your 4 hymns in your opening hand, you use
>it.
Lucky enough to get it? You have a 50% chance of drawing anything in your
opening hand if you have four of them in your sixty card deck. Drawing
the Hymn isn't that lucky.
The power of the hymn is that it takes your luck and trades it into
>1 card of yours for 2 cards of his. Whether you get a 'lucky' pull
>doesn't matter because maybe you were lucky enough to draw your hymn, but
>maybe he was lucky enough to draw his tower, balance, armageddon, etc
>etc. It seems to me that you're just bitching and on this anti-hymn
>crusade because you've lost to it too many times.
First of all, you are correct. I am tired of losing to only one card in
Type 2 for the last two months. I have watched completely unskilled
players win solely on luck with the Hymn- consistently. I have watched
some of the best players in the world be beaten by unskilled players,
solely on luck. I just want to see skill become more of a factor for much
of the people who are winning with the Hymn only.
LUCK is part of magic,
>and it always will be. You can't eliminate all the random chance from
>magic or else the game wouldn't be the same.
I don't want to eliminate all randomness- that's what makes the game fun.
I want to eliminate randomness which has become out of control in Type 2.
And it has become out of control. The Hymn does take no skill to use,
and it often devastates an opponent. Mind Twist was banned for much of
the same reasons, among others. Do you think we should bring back Mind
Twist as well? You know, I don't think so because it just isn't quite as
efficient as the Hymn (Mana per card).
All this shit about the
>hymn being unbalanced is just whining because necrodecks are currently
>dominating the field. I think that when alliances comes out, you'll see
>a shift in deck designs. Then, when you're worried about losing your
>favorite card to a hymn, put it under the fucking Gustha's scepter and
>stop crying.
How can you say it isn't unbalanced? I have written about it's
disbalancing effects on the Type 2 environment. That is disbalancing
enough. If you want to get into the physics of the card, that makes it
even more game disbalancing. First of all, anything with a one mana/one
card ratio is good. Two Mana to take two cards. That's powerful. Now
let's make the discard random. Now it's overpowering. Now, look at it as
a two for one. The Hymn takes out two cards, for it's one. And at the
least, it will *always* draw out a counterspell. Even them it is a Mind
Warp for one. All in all, I don't think that anyone can argue that the
Hymn is not a disbalanced card- and be correct. In this case, it isn't a
matter of opininion. The physics of the card are disbalancing enough.
SonicNOU1
To the moron guy who said stop whining about it, put it under a Gustha's
Scepter, whatever the hell it was...let me comment.
In case you people haven't noticed, pull your head out of your rears and
take a look at T2. Necropotence is COMPLETELY dominant. However, some may
argue, "Look at Vise Age. It wasn't as dominant, however the Vise had to
be restricted because it went in every deck." True enough. Necropotence
however, is THE DECK in T2. There are really very few decks that can stop
the Necro, because as I've said countless times, Hymnning and Disking. I
am not calling for the Disk to be restricted...while it is a wicked card,
it is not THAT unbalancing I suppose. The Hymn on the other hand, is a
pain. It has been the card causing the most trouble even before Necro
decks in black and if you play black, you use it. Will it be Restricted?
Probably not. But I think removing FE is the solution. Goodbye to 8 pump
knights of white or black, goodbye Hymn and goodbye Orgg, and GOODBYE many
stupid cards. People also said, "You hated FE when it came out, now you're
whining." I never hated FE...I thought it had some good stuff. Homelands,
on the other hand...well, than to 2? Hmm...and nothing fun either, just
dumb stuff.
I think Alliances coming in and FE going out should change a lot. I
personally think removing Ice Age wuold cause a complete restructuring,
with the Willowgeddon EASILY coming out on top...it would suddenly become
the deck, though U/W would still be prominant.
Well I'm just ramblin'.
-SONIC
ja...@jove.acs.unt.edu
Alan Cade wrote:
[snip[
> opening hand if you have four of them in your sixty card deck. Drawing
> the Hymn isn't that lucky.
Just so you know, this isn't true. I'll spare you the math and give you
the "intuitive" proof. If you had 28 mana in your deck, that leaves room
for 8 slots of 4 cards each. You get 8 cards in your opening hand (if you
go second). It is impossible for the odds to be in favor of you drawing
a card from each slot and get any mana. Just doesn't work. (Probabilities
all add to 1). The odds go something like this:
turn1: 55% chance of not drawing one
turn2: 51% chance of not drawing one
turn3: 47% chance of not drawing one
Not something you'd really want to bet on, cosidering once you draw 1 you
then you need to get lucky *again* (conditional probability). It's a stable
card by itself.
> First of all, you are correct. I am tired of losing to only one card in
> Type 2 for the last two months. I have watched completely unskilled
> players win solely on luck with the Hymn- consistently. I have watched[snip]
I just have to point out how funny this is. To say, "[they] win solely on
luck ... consistently." There is a saying about people who are
"consistently lucky."
> I don't want to eliminate all randomness- that's what makes the game fun.
> I want to eliminate randomness which has become out of control in Type 2.
> And it has become out of control. The Hymn does take no skill to use,
> and it often devastates an opponent. Mind Twist was banned for much of
> the same reasons, among others. Do you think we should bring back Mind
> Twist as well? You know, I don't think so because it just isn't quite as
> efficient as the Hymn (Mana per card).
Now you're being silly. So you lose 2 cards early in the game, it sucks.
But if you're deck is built around card advantage (as I think all good
decks should) - then you'll more than make up for it in the long run.
I really don't mind when my W/R/u deck gets hymned by a non-necro deck,
because I know I will more than make up for it when the tomes kick in. It's
the hymn/necro *combo* that really hurts - because it makes it so hard to
recover card advantage. If you're deck isn't built around card advantage
then I could see how the hymn can kill you, but that's your fault.
As far as "no skill" goes, your opponent has an Erhnam out, 4 cards in hand,
a jay tome that she's been using, and a feldon's out. You have 5 mana, a
disk, a sengir, and draw a hymn. I guess you just hymn, right? It's a
no-brainer. How many StPs are in her graveyard - hell, it doesn't matter -
just do it. I hope you see that point here...the examples are endless.
It reminds me of how poeple call "burn decks" chezzy.
> How can you say it isn't unbalanced? I have written about it's
> disbalancing effects on the Type 2 environment. That is disbalancing
> enough. If you want to get into the physics of the card, that makes it
> even more game disbalancing. First of all, anything with a one mana/one
> card ratio is good. Two Mana to take two cards. That's powerful. Now
> let's make the discard random. Now it's overpowering. Now, look at it as
> a two for one. The Hymn takes out two cards, for it's one. And at the
> least, it will *always* draw out a counterspell. Even them it is a Mind
> Warp for one. All in all, I don't think that anyone can argue that the
> Hymn is not a disbalanced card- and be correct. In this case, it isn't a
> matter of opininion. The physics of the card are disbalancing enough.
Alone it is not a unbalancing card. :) First, when it gets countered it is
not a warp for 1 - it is a card for a card (net gain, 0). The reason it
gets 2 cards is because if it only got 1 it would *suck* (net gain, 0). It
would be a black "random counterspell". Counter 1 random spell - talk about
lame and ineffective. "I'll counter your....uh...fellwar stone? Ok you're
turn." I doubt it would even be used then.
I would simply advise you to play with 4 jay tomes and laugh at hymns during
the midgame. Card advantage rocks. Oh yes, and deflecting a hymn is simply
the coolest thing! ;) (net gain, 2).
Ciao...
Jay Shergill
Alan Cade (Alan...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: ez05...@elroy.ucdavis.edu (Jay Shergill) wrote:
<My long ramblings about Hymn and other cards SNIPPED>
: Jay-
: I think you missed my point here. First of all, Armageddon was a
: maybe. Simply because a good argument could be made, but I don't want
Ah, my apologies. I must have misread your post.
: to get into that here. But my point in responding here is to point out
: that it takes *great* skill often to know when to STP a creature. This is
: because of the psychological tactics used to maximize your STP. Often, by
: taking excess points of damage, I can lure my opponent into casting
: Armageddon when they have a creature dealing damage to me. Then I STP it.
: To win takes skill (unless you use the Hymn), and so does using the tools
: within the deck. STP is not mindless- if you want to win with it, rather
: than just kill creatures. I have had a well timed STP actually be a game
: winner for me in Pro-Qualifiers. I guess it just takes the right
: mentality.
Ok, so STP is *sometimes* a skill-requireing card. So what? What if it
wasn't? Then what about my other examples? A bolt, terror, a creature,
a tinder wall, a lumberjack, a wrath. Although each of these require a
little bit of strategy and skill to use, I maintain that they don't
require much. And for the sake of argument, let us suppose that they do,
and the Hymn does not; So what? While Magic *is* a mind/strategy/luck
game, why shouldn't it have cards that don't take much brainpower to
use?
But, back to the Hymn. In my B/G deck, I play with 4 Hymns. Yes it is a
bit cheezy, but it is a really nice card. I personally don't think that
Hymns should be restricted, simply becuase while they are very
disruptive, they aren't overly disruptive. Sure I can Hymn you on the
first turn with a dark ritual, but then I can't cast a Hyppie on the next
turn. The problem with Necro decks *isn't* the Hymn. They do not kill
you with the hymn. They kill you with the creatures in the deck. If you
really want to tear a Necro deck apart you have to take out their disks
before they can use them while they have a Necro in play. The will never
draw another card as long as they have to pay life for it. And if the
post-Disk aftermath is just too much for you to handle, save some of your
cards in your hand. I mean, you could almost any color deal with a Necro
deck. I mean, all you have to do is try to either take out the disks or
their creatures. And if you can do both, then you are doing twice as
well. A deck playing the proper colors could
Wrath/Pyroclasm/Sandstorm/Inferno/and
Shatter/Disenchant/Crumble/Divine Offering/Brown Ouffe/Scavenger Folk
or even *gasp* Counterspell their way to victory against a Necro deck. The
necropotence has drawbacks besides just the pay-a-life-for-a-card-thing, it
is up to us to expliot those weaknesses.
Mr RM Burton
Alan Cade (Alan...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: jfe...@mv.mv.com (Jim Ferraiolo) wrote:
: >I'm tired of hearing all this crap about the Hymn being an all luck, no
: >skill card.
: But it is. How can you possibly argue any differently. It is all luck-
: because it is random.
: The cards you get are RANDOMLY
: >decided by how you shuffle your deck (unless you cheat). When you are
: >'lucky' enough to get one of your 4 hymns in your opening hand, you use
: >it.
: Lucky enough to get it? You have a 50% chance of drawing anything in your
: opening hand if you have four of them in your sixty card deck. Drawing
: the Hymn isn't that lucky.
I agree in that I think that the luck factor in a card game should come
from the cards you are drawing. Randow discarding is just too powerful an
effect. If you draw the 2 worst cards from your opponents hand out of say
4 or 5 it would still be a very good effect. 2 to 1 ratio for only 2 Mana.
alternatively you have a good chance producing a devastating effect, like
a disenchant and a Karma, when you have a tapped disk out. This is what makes
Necro so devastating. The counter measures normally cost more mana and are
the cards most likely to be Hymned away.
: The power of the hymn is that it takes your luck and trades it into
: >1 card of yours for 2 cards of his. Whether you get a 'lucky' pull
: >doesn't matter because maybe you were lucky enough to draw your hymn, but
: >maybe he was lucky enough to draw his tower, balance, armageddon, etc
: >etc. It seems to me that you're just bitching and on this anti-hymn
: >crusade because you've lost to it too many times.
: LUCK is part of magic,
: >and it always will be. You can't eliminate all the random chance from
: >magic or else the game wouldn't be the same.
: I don't want to eliminate all randomness- that's what makes the game fun.
: I want to eliminate randomness which has become out of control in Type 2.
: And it has become out of control. The Hymn does take no skill to use,
: and it often devastates an opponent. Mind Twist was banned for much of
: the same reasons, among others. Do you think we should bring back Mind
: Twist as well? You know, I don't think so because it just isn't quite as
: efficient as the Hymn (Mana per card).
: All this shit about the
: >hymn being unbalanced is just whining because necrodecks are currently
: >dominating the field. I think that when alliances comes out, you'll see
: >a shift in deck designs. Then, when you're worried about losing your
: >favorite card to a hymn, put it under the fucking Gustha's scepter and
: >stop crying.
: How can you say it isn't unbalanced? I have written about it's
: disbalancing effects on the Type 2 environment. That is disbalancing
: enough. If you want to get into the physics of the card, that makes it
: even more game disbalancing. First of all, anything with a one mana/one
: card ratio is good. Two Mana to take two cards. That's powerful. Now
: let's make the discard random. Now it's overpowering. Now, look at it as
: a two for one. The Hymn takes out two cards, for it's one. And at the
: least, it will *always* draw out a counterspell. Even them it is a Mind
: Warp for one. All in all, I don't think that anyone can argue that the
: Hymn is not a disbalanced card- and be correct. In this case, it isn't a
: matter of opininion. The physics of the card are disbalancing enough.
: -Chris Cade
: "Victim's, aren't we all?"
I believe that the Hymn is unbalanced and restricting it will not destroy
blacks discard ability. A Hippie is a must deal with card or it quickly
becomes a Hymn that does damage but at least you have a chance to remove it.
I also believe non random discard is a powerful effect, due to just card
advantage but is not a devastating effect
I just don't believe that a the game should rely on the luck factor of
whether it pulls out the opponents countermeasures to the Hymn casters
strategy. This is especially true of Necro decks due to there speed. If you
lose the anti artifact, anti black or anti creature cards due to a "RANDOM"
Hymn effect you have very little chance of getting back in the game...
Rob.......
Mr RM Burton
Following up on my last post, I would like to say that the main reason I think
a Hymn is too powerful is that there is no real counter to it. Cards such as
Guerilla Tactics are not entirely sucessful as the Hymn's effect is random,
and equally likely to pull the cards that you need to help you win the game.
I suppose Wotc could fix this by coming up with an even more devastating
discard hoser, but I think this will hinder too much cards which induce a
selective discarc such as Scepter and Abyssal Spectre which I feel is a
balanced effect for their cost's. You still have the Hippie for random
discard, which is a must deal with card ,and if left unchecked could be
even more devastating than the Hymn and do damage at the same time, But at
least you can do something about it ...
Unless of course your second term Hymn pulls out the opponents incinerate....
......
Rob.....
EE...@aol.com
Im becoming real fond of Cursed Rack as a guard against Necro, and it
makes my own Hymns even more useful!
Vincent Saldell
ja...@jove.acs.unt.edu writes:
>Ciao...
Bah, this necro is too good thread is pointless.
Everyone that has played willowgeddon at tournament
level knows it often eat necrodecks alive.
Of cource I could say that more skill is needed
than playing necro, but then again such a statement
is rather ridiculous since its rather easy to just
play elves, dervishes and slow opponent down with
strip mines and armageddons, while disenchanting
the disks.
Of cource the eat-necro-alive part is partly
dependant on sideboarding as well. If I have
3 cards in sideboard vs necro and a necro has 9
cards in sideboard vs willowgeddon its might
even up abit.
-Vincent Saldell
George W. Bayles
ja...@jove.acs.unt.edu wrote:
[snip - discussion of Hymn to tourach]
: Alone it is not a unbalancing card. :) First, when it gets countered it is
: not a warp for 1 - it is a card for a card (net gain, 0). The reason it
: gets 2 cards is because if it only got 1 it would *suck* (net gain, 0). It
: would be a black "random counterspell". Counter 1 random spell - talk about
: lame and ineffective. "I'll counter your....uh...fellwar stone? Ok you're
: turn." I doubt it would even be used then.
: I would simply advise you to play with 4 jay tomes and laugh at hymns during
: the midgame. Card advantage rocks. Oh yes, and deflecting a hymn is simply
: the coolest thing! ;) (net gain, 2).
Mono black would be unplayable without Hymn to Tourach. It would die rudely to
any number of enchantments and artifacts which it has no way to deal with
except the Disks - but the Disks won't survive long enough except for the
pre-emptive Hymn to Tourach. There are excellent ways around the Hymn - Library
of Leng, Sylvan Library, Icy Cauldron - and more to come. There are anti-necro
decks that reliably beat it - of course they have their own weak spots. I
don't like discard as a strategy - too much luck and not much fun - but the
Hymn or a card like the Hymn is necessary to balance the colors.
: Ciao...
J.Busby
rm...@rl.ac.uk writes:
> I suppose Wotc could fix this by coming up with an even more devastating
> discard hoser, but I think this will hinder too much cards which induce a
A simple answer would be an artifact/ench. that allowed you to draw a card for
each you dropped. If you hymn me for two I lose two at random and then draw
two more - add this to Library/Leng and you would have quite a nice defence
against discard. (Of course such a card doesn't exist yet but we can hope)
--
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
_/ _/ _/ _/ eternal life."
_/ _/_/_/ _/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Jesus Christ John 3:16
John Bischoff
Mr RM Burton wrote:
>
> Following up on my last post, I would like to say that the main reason I think
> a Hymn is too powerful is that there is no real counter to it. Cards such as
> Guerilla Tactics are not entirely sucessful as the Hymn's effect is random,
> and equally likely to pull the cards that you need to help you win the game.
What about Library of Leng--"...If a spell or effect forces you to
discard, you may discard to the top of your library rather than to your
graveyard..."? Looks like a counter to me...
>
> I suppose Wotc could fix this by coming up with an even more devastating
> discard hoser, but I think this will hinder too much cards which induce a
> selective discarc such as Scepter and Abyssal Spectre which I feel is a
> balanced effect for their cost's. You still have the Hippie for random
> discard, which is a must deal with card ,and if left unchecked could be
> even more devastating than the Hymn and do damage at the same time, But at
> least you can do something about it ...
Soul Net will get you Life for the discards-- there are plenty of
discard hosers, including the Alliances card that recycles everything
above it when in the graveyard
>
> Unless of course your second term Hymn pulls out the opponents incinerate....
LoL can be played on turn 1...
--
The preceding was worth every penny you paid for it-- since you got it
for free,
it must be priceless.<br> <a
href="http://physics.isu.edu/~bischoff/public.html">see
my home page for the boring stuff </a><br>
<a href="mailto:bisc...@physics.isu.edu">John Bischoff </a>