Prison vs. Turbo Stasis
Justin Schuetz
I hate Turbo Stasis.
I was playing in my local type II tourney, and I swept my first round
opponent who was playing a titania's song deck (i was playing prison).
Second round: Turbo Stasis. I lost. I lost badly. If I hadn't of drawn
an armageddon in the second game I would have been swept. What prison
strategy beats turbo stasis? the only one that worked for me is play
nothing until i have 4 lands out and he has stasis in play (with lots o
land as well) i cast armageddon praying he has no counterspell (i don't
care too much for force of will) and then put a land down and play a vise
if i have one. this is the only way i can conceive of beating turbo
stasis with prison. any ideas? other than that the prison is great, it
made the titania's song weep instead of sing, the land destruction deck i
played was outclassed by my minor land destruction strategy. necropotence
didn't know what to do with just 1 swamp per turn. willowgeddon? please
that is such a poor deck against prison. well it was fun though, i was
playing without millstones, so the games were quite long...........
Justin Schuetz
thor...@zianet.com
Hmmm... I might be able to help: But I need to know one thing
first: What is The Prison?!? Everyone seems to post about it,
but no one posts a listing, or at least a description, of what
it is. I would guess its a WOrb/Geddon deck from the
descriptions of games, but I really can't know. Would someone
please post a listing of a "normal" Prison deck?
Thanks,
*2MuchTime*
unity
You could just email Chris Cade. He'll respond w/ a copy of The Prison.
His variant is pretty decent.
> Thanks,
> *2MuchTime*
Winter Orbit : A Prison-Style Deck
4 Disenchant
4 STP
4 Icy Manip
4 Fellwar Stone
4 Armageddon
3 Winter Orb
2 Wrath of God
2 Meekstone
2 Millstone
2 Serrated Arrows
1 Sol Grail
1 Ivory Tower
1 Zuran Orb
1 Land Tax
1 Black Vise
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Recall
1 Strip Mine
1 Balance
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Island
3 Adarkar Wastes
12 Plains
O.K... The Prison is an Armageddon/Winter Orb/Icy deck that is based
around the idea of mana control. It wins via decking the opponent, vising
the opponent, or pummelling the opponent w/ factories.
My current variant, Winter Orbit, is sort of creature-paranoid -- but
otherwise it is very much standard "Prison". My sideboard also reflects
this. Certain people will tell you that there is not a lot of room for
varying the contents of the Prison-style because it is so difficult to
play correctly. In my experience this isn't true - there is a LOT of room
to adjust the specifics to better match your local play environment. In
fact, if you don't do that then you are making a pretty serious error.
Lazarus
Justin Schuetz (EFT...@prodigy.com) wrote:
: I hate Turbo Stasis.
The key to beating TStasis is the Winter Orb -- the Worb renders the
Boomerangs and Despotic Scepters practically useless in continuing the
Stasis lock. And considering that the TStasis player usually has a
bunch of land in play, getting an Armageddon through is always a
plus. Arcane Denials help, as dso Serra Angels if you can find space
for them in your sideboard.
And always, always kill the Howling Mines...
_____
/ /*\ \
-al |---------
(|()-()|)
+=-=-=-=-=+OOOOo-=-U-=-oOOOO-=-=-=-=-=-=+
|Al Tran |Lazarus Wombat Alpo Messiah |
+=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
|e-mail |<alt...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu>|
| |<lazar...@aol.com> |
+=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
Belfrazz
To beat Turbo Stasis, you must understand one thing... The Mines are
the key to winning. Board in your anti-artifact stuff, and toast the
mines. Play agressive Armageddons, and try to prevent from tapping
yourself out (and strips, until Oct 1st). Also, if you board in the extra
W ORbs, it makes the stasis/boomerang combo really useless... It's tough,
but with a little practice, it will be a bit easier. Also, if you play a
Cap, or in your sideboard, CAP THE STASISs!!! Without this, they can't
win.
Chrys
"If I can't have everything well then it just gives me a taste"
NIN - Sin - Pretty Hate Machine
Albert Ko
On 14 Sep 1996, Justin Schuetz wrote:
> I hate Turbo Stasis.
> I was playing in my local type II tourney, and I swept my first round
> opponent who was playing a titania's song deck (i was playing prison).
> Second round: Turbo Stasis. I lost. I lost badly. If I hadn't of drawn
> an armageddon in the second game I would have been swept. What prison
> strategy beats turbo stasis? the only one that worked for me is play
> nothing until i have 4 lands out and he has stasis in play (with lots o
> land as well) i cast armageddon praying he has no counterspell (i don't
> care too much for force of will) and then put a land down and play a vise
> if i have one. this is the only way i can conceive of beating turbo
> stasis with prison. any ideas?
Well, the key to Turbostasis's lock ability lies mainly within the
Howling Mines. Since the archetype Prison Chris Cade posted carries 5
anti-artifact spells standard, go after the damn Mines or tap em with
your Icies. After sideboard you can probably throw in some more
anti-artifact spells to make it even more overwhelming. As Chris said,
it's the combo of all the threats the Prison puts forth that allows it to
win. Turbostasis may counter that first Disenchant but they'll have to
Boomerang/counter the Icy and counter the Geddon also to win.
> other than that the prison is great, it
> made the titania's song weep instead of sing, the land destruction deck i
> played was outclassed by my minor land destruction strategy. necropotence
> didn't know what to do with just 1 swamp per turn. willowgeddon? please
> that is such a poor deck against prison. well it was fun though, i was
> playing without millstones, so the games were quite long...........
I'm curious as to the possibilty of Ivory Gargoyles in the sideboard of
the Prison for those decks that don't carry plows. I remember that Chris
said that he was using Blinkies originally. With the modification of
Strip restricted and Mishras in, would Blinky work instead of Mills?
And will the deck still be reasonably fast?
Albert
thor...@zianet.com
Thanks to the person who replied w/ a Prison deck listing. Now
I see why T-Stasis thrashed it. Answer: Sideboard Arenson's
Aura. That's right, SB one of the crappiest cards ever. It
will, however allow you to have more than 4 encantment removal
cards in U/W. The only other solution I see: Countermagic.
If you add Arcane Denails/Force of Will/Powersink to The Prison
(there may not be room, I haven't tried to come up w/ a deck
listing for this), then I think it could be T-Stasis. These
are the only solutions I see. Now I'll go look at what the
other Netizens outhere wrote, and see what I didn't think of.
*2MuchTime*
Shaw
Have you thought about using Kismet to make a more lethal lock?
unity
Hmmm... Thats funny. So far, my Winter Orbit deck has yet to lose a match
versus Turbo Stasis. I don't really consider it a totally viable theme (I
know I'll get flamed for that one), especially against Prison-style decks.
-tom
JOSHUA TIMBERMAN
unity (un...@printnet.com) wrote:
: You could just email Chris Cade. He'll respond w/ a copy of The Prison.
: His variant is pretty decent.
i believe that he was the original poster of "the prison". not to say
that he is the original player of white control, as there have been many
people that have been playing white control decks of the prison variety
for a long time now (myself included). didn't marc hernandez of france
play a "prison" deck in worlds of 1995? :)
--
ej3...@goodnet.com. aka jetfish/hazewire/bandwidth nazi.
"you dont realize what you have till you lose it" - unknown.
Tim Sparrow
-tom
Tom:
I am currently playing a Red/White Prison Deck with no millstones.
It is more aggressive than your average Worb deck because the
tournaments I play in are all timed so I need to assure victory
quickly. I do this with direct damage, Mishra's and Serra Angel's.
If you could list the contents of your deck I would like to get your
feedback on mine...
LAND
4 Strip Mines (Until Oct.1)
` 4 Mishra's Factory
2 City of Brass
2 Ruins of Trokair
5 Plain
1 Dwarven Ruins
4 Mountain
Artifacts
4 Icy manipulator
3 Winter orb
4 Fellwar Stone
2 Sol Grail
1 Ivory Tower
1 Zuran Orb
1 Black Vise
White
3 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
3 Kismet
2 Swords to plowshares
1 Balance
1 Land Tax
2 Serra Angel
1 Blinking Spirit
Red
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Incinerate
1 Fireball
1 Gorilla Shamen
Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blasts
4 Pyro Blasts
2 Order of the Sacred Torch
1 Wrath of God
1 Kismet
1 Jesters Cap
1 Feldons Cane
1 Disenchant
The Turbo Stasis deck has become very popular around these parts as
you can probably tell by the skewed sidebar. It is my contention that
the Weakness of it is in the destruction of the Howling Mines and the
playing of a Kismet against him/her. In your experience what other
weakness's can be exploited.
If you or anyone else cares to critique my deck please feel free
too, all coments would be welcome. Or if you will E-Mail me and we
can talk about it.
Erik Mooney
> Well, the key to Turbostasis's lock ability lies mainly within the
> Howling Mines. Since the archetype Prison Chris Cade posted carries 5
> anti-artifact spells standard, go after the damn Mines or tap em with
Yes, 5. And how many of those are going to come out before TS gets its
Kismet/Stasis lock? One or two, and TS will likely draw that many FoW
if not standard counters anyway.
> your Icies. After sideboard you can probably throw in some more
> anti-artifact spells to make it even more overwhelming. As Chris said,
> it's the combo of all the threats the Prison puts forth that allows it to
> win. Turbostasis may counter that first Disenchant but they'll have to
> Boomerang/counter the Icy and counter the Geddon also to win.
How does an Icy hurt TStasis? It taps one land, great for the Prison,
but if TStasis has the Stasis out, that Icy isn't gonna untap. Besides,
the Icy takes 4 mana to play, which is an ideal time to play Stasis when
the opponent has that much land tapped.
Also, don't forget the premise of TStasis - to lay down the lock BEFORE
the opponent can do anything, then maintain the lock the entire game.
Sure, Energy Flux kills TStasis, but as long as I can counter your first
one or get the lock down before you can cast it, you'll never have 3
mana again. If I go first and lay my Stasis on turn 4, you're never
going to have 4 mana the entire game to cast your Armageddon or Icy.
And if you hoard your land until you've got 4 untapped, that's plenty of
time for me to draw a Force of Will. And even if the 'geddon does hit,
how does the Prison recover before TStasis can reestablish the lock? It
effectively starts the game completely over, except for the Despotic
Scepter and Howlings already on the table - giving the advantage to the
TStasis player.
AND, if each player's Black Vise gets countered or Disenchanted or
neutralized by Ivory Tower (a likely enough situation), the only way to
end the game is deck depletion.. both decks will have a Cane.. if one
gets countered, the other player will win, but if both go through or
both get countered, the library sizes are effectively identical, giving
the advantage to TStasis again, because Howling Mines affect the
opponent first, the Prison will be one card short for each HMine played,
*even if the Mine is later disenchanted.* Once TStasis gets ahead on
cards, it doesn't matter if the Prison establishes control.
Prison's only got two / sometimes three finishers - Black Vise,
neutralized by FoW or Disenchant or Ivory Tower - Feldon's Cane,
neutralized by FoW or Disenchant or an opposing Cane - and sometimes a
Millstone, neutralized by FoW or Disenchant (even if Prison gets one use
out of the Millstone in response to the Disenchant, four HMines will
still leave TStasis two cards ahead.)
Of course, an uncountered Island Sanctuary will easily win the game for
either. (uh oh, what happens if all the HMines get killed and each
player has a Sanctuary? "I'm done" "I'm done" "I'm done" "I'm done"
"I'm done" =) )
Albert Ko
On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Erik Mooney wrote:
> > Well, the key to Turbostasis's lock ability lies mainly within the
> > Howling Mines. Since the archetype Prison Chris Cade posted carries 5
> > anti-artifact spells standard, go after the damn Mines or tap em with
>
> Yes, 5. And how many of those are going to come out before TS gets its
> Kismet/Stasis lock? One or two, and TS will likely draw that many FoW
> if not standard counters anyway.
>
> > your Icies. After sideboard you can probably throw in some more
> > anti-artifact spells to make it even more overwhelming. As Chris said,
> > it's the combo of all the threats the Prison puts forth that allows it to
> > win. Turbostasis may counter that first Disenchant but they'll have to
> > Boomerang/counter the Icy and counter the Geddon also to win.
>
> How does an Icy hurt TStasis? It taps one land, great for the Prison,
> but if TStasis has the Stasis out, that Icy isn't gonna untap. Besides,
> the Icy takes 4 mana to play, which is an ideal time to play Stasis when
> the opponent has that much land tapped.
Tap the Mines so TStasis never gets the card draw it needs to keep/get a
lock.
> Also, don't forget the premise of TStasis - to lay down the lock BEFORE
> the opponent can do anything, then maintain the lock the entire game.
True, but considering that even if you get the combo cards neccessary in
your intial hand, you still have to play them effectively. 8
counterspells to stop potentially 8 antiartifact sounds good in theory
but the Prison has other threats. Are you going to allow the Prison to
Armageddon and stop TStasis's setup? Winter Orb? I've played a TStasis
with my pre-Mirage WWeenie and packing 6 artifact dest worked great cause
they also had to worry about armageddon also. It was basically whoever
controlled the Mines won. I experimented with Kismet against him in a
couple of games. If I could ever get it out (packed 2), he was meat with
a Boomerang or counter in hand.
> Sure, Energy Flux kills TStasis, but as long as I can counter your first
> one or get the lock down before you can cast it, you'll never have 3
> mana again. If I go first and lay my Stasis on turn 4, you're never
> going to have 4 mana the entire game to cast your Armageddon or Icy.
That's why the Prison uses 4 Fellwars to speed mana development. Also,
that scenario is only possible if you go first.
> And if you hoard your land until you've got 4 untapped, that's plenty of
> time for me to draw a Force of Will. And even if the 'geddon does hit,
> how does the Prison recover before TStasis can reestablish the lock? It
> effectively starts the game completely over, except for the Despotic
> Scepter and Howlings already on the table - giving the advantage to the
> TStasis player.
Not really, the Prison will probably have a Fellwar or a couple of artifacts.
Who says that you will still have your Mines out? I'd nuke the Mines
immediately and probably Geddon or drop the Orb.
> AND, if each player's Black Vise gets countered or Disenchanted or
> neutralized by Ivory Tower (a likely enough situation), the only way to
> end the game is deck depletion.. both decks will have a Cane.. if one
> gets countered, the other player will win, but if both go through or
> both get countered, the library sizes are effectively identical, giving
> the advantage to TStasis again, because Howling Mines affect the
> opponent first, the Prison will be one card short for each HMine played,
> *even if the Mine is later disenchanted.
Ithink you may have to look at Chris Cade's "The Prison" archetype again.
It packs 2 Millstones. Personally, I have a variant that uses Lodestone
Bauble.
> Once TStasis gets ahead on
> cards, it doesn't matter if the Prison establishes control.
How so?
> Prison's only got two / sometimes three finishers - Black Vise,
> neutralized by FoW or Disenchant or Ivory Tower - Feldon's Cane,
> neutralized by FoW or Disenchant or an opposing Cane - and sometimes a
> Millstone, neutralized by FoW or Disenchant (even if Prison gets one use
> out of the Millstone in response to the Disenchant, four HMines will
> still leave TStasis two cards ahead.)
Archetype TStasis doesn't have room for Disenchant. It's only permanent
defense is Boomerang, Force of Will, and Arcane Denials.
> Of course, an uncountered Island Sanctuary will easily win the game for
> either. (uh oh, what happens if all the HMines get killed and each
> player has a Sanctuary? "I'm done" "I'm done" "I'm done" "I'm done"
> "I'm done" =) )
Hmm, whenever people think Prison they think U/W control. That's not right.
Whenever people think TStasis they think U/W control with Stasis & Vault,
that's wrong too. The Prison would never even consider Sanctuary,
TStasis doesn't have room (or it would be diluted above 60 cards).
TStasis is a strong deck type but decks packing artifact control will
give it fits by messing with their Mines. Especially the W/R/g
OrbHowlingBind decks, they have access to Primitive Justice, Shatter,
Disenchant, DOffering, Detonate, . . .etc. . .
TStasis works great against Necro especially and other antiarifact weak
decks.
unity
I have said, for a LONG time, that _the_ anti T-Stasis card was Kismet.
Again, I'll probably get flamed and told that I "know nothing about the
game" for saying that. I used to play w/ two Kismets in my deck, then one,
and now none :( sadly. I love Kismet. I wish it worked better in the play
environment around here.
Where I play, R/G Big Creature Speed decks and G/W
Ernie-willow-insectageddon are the two big themes. Necro is also around,
but disappearing already. I think the card that handles big gun decks
really well is Meekstone.
The blue component of my deck is really essential only for the
sideboard I play with, which has some blue cards in it. My deck is
actually a mono-white deck w/ a blue potential.
> If you or anyone else cares to critique my deck please feel free
> too, all coments would be welcome. Or if you will E-Mail me and we
> can talk about it.
I like your deck a lot. Kismet is a great card, I'm glad someone out
there realizes it. Just out of curiousity, if you were playing yourself
and got a Cap off, what three cards would you remove from your deck to
most hurt it. Ask yourself, "Can I still win easily enough w/o those three
cards?"
Personally, I'd make the Cane standard. But again, thats just me. :)
I'm also curious how well your deck has done so far locally.
Here's my deck:
>>Winter Orbit
>>
>>4 Disenchant
>>4 STP
>>4 Icy Manip
>>4 Fellwar Stone
>>4 Armageddon
>>3 Winter Orb
>>2 Wrath of God
>>2 Meekstone
>>2 Millstone
>>2 Serrated Arrows
>>1 Sol Grail
>>1 Ivory Tower
>>1 Zuran Orb
>>1 Land Tax
>>1 Black Vise
>>1 Feldon's Cane
>>1 Recall
>>1 Strip Mine
>>1 Balance
>>
>>4 Mishra's Factory
>>1 Island
>>4 Adarkar Wastes
>>11 Plains
The sideboard of this deck depends on what the locals are playing any
given month. Right now, its:
4 Arcane Denial
2 Sleight of Mind
2 COP: Red
1 Meekstone
1 Wrath of God
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Karma
2 Divine Offering
...But it changes to suit taste, as I said.
-tom
Alan Cade
un...@printnet.com (unity) wrote:
>In article <323b1...@nova.zianet.com>, thor...@zianet.com wrote:
>
>> Thanks to the person who replied w/ a Prison deck listing. Now
>> I see why T-Stasis thrashed it. Answer: Sideboard Arenson's
>> Aura. That's right, SB one of the crappiest cards ever. It
>> will, however allow you to have more than 4 encantment removal
>> cards in U/W. The only other solution I see: Countermagic.
>> If you add Arcane Denails/Force of Will/Powersink to The Prison
>> (there may not be room, I haven't tried to come up w/ a deck
>> listing for this), then I think it could be T-Stasis. These
>> are the only solutions I see. Now I'll go look at what the
>> other Netizens outhere wrote, and see what I didn't think of.
>>
>> *2MuchTime*
>
>
>versus Turbo Stasis. I don't really consider it a totally viable theme (I
>know I'll get flamed for that one), especially against Prison-style decks.
>
>-tom
To be honest... a good player playing a good version of "The Prison" will
massacre TurboStasis every time. I have yet to lost to TurboStasis.
TStasis isn't even a challenge for "The Prison."
-Chris Cade
"Better Lucky Than Good!"
Albert Ko
On 16 Sep 1996, JOSHUA TIMBERMAN wrote:
> unity (un...@printnet.com) wrote:
> : You could just email Chris Cade. He'll respond w/ a copy of The Prison.
> : His variant is pretty decent.
>
> i believe that he was the original poster of "the prison". not to say
> that he is the original player of white control, as there have been many
> people that have been playing white control decks of the prison variety
> for a long time now (myself included). didn't marc hernandez of france
> play a "prison" deck in worlds of 1995? :)
Nope, the Prison is not what most people think it is. It is exactly
white control in the traditional sense. Just ask the originator, Chris
Cade. He'll tell you the real deal on what "the Prison" is really about.
Chris also uses variations to throw people off so they can't presideboard
correctly.
Albert
Eric Taylor
Erik Mooney (emo...@attila.stevens-tech.edu) wrote:
: How does an Icy hurt TStasis? It taps one land, great for the Prison,
: but if TStasis has the Stasis out, that Icy isn't gonna untap. Besides,
: the Icy takes 4 mana to play, which is an ideal time to play Stasis when
: the opponent has that much land tapped.
If you manage somehow to play out an icy it's great. You keep your icy
around, wait around until stasis comes out. Then you tap the howling
mine with the icy. Mine never untaps. Stasis dies unless he manages to
play and keep alive a second howling mine.
: the advantage to TStasis again, because Howling Mines affect the
: opponent first, the Prison will be one card short for each HMine played,
: *even if the Mine is later disenchanted.* Once TStasis gets ahead on
: cards, it doesn't matter if the Prison establishes control.
The playpen oh yeah, I mean the "prison", it eats the turbostasis for
lunch. You got 4 divine offerings, 4 disenchants. It's impossible for
turbostasis to keep the howling mines alive. Remember, the key to
turbo stasis is not keep stasis alive, because if stasis gets
disenchanted that's ok, you can still draw a bunch of cards from the
mines, recall a stasis or play the second stasis you had in your hand.
The key is keeping the howling mines alive, because without the mines,
the turbostasis engine runs out of fuel.
Turbostasis is wonderful only if the tournament field is unprepared.
When Necrodecks all have four ghost hounds or four yotian soldiers in
their sideboard, blue has engery flux and white has 4 divine offerings
in the sideboard, tstasis can't win. Nobody expected tstasis at the
nationals. It's a wonderful solid tournament winning deck, but you
have to catch people unprepared. In that respect it's in fact somewhat
like a goblin deck. If blue/white control for some reason believes the
goblin threat is dead and takes out all of his circle of protection
red's from his sideboard, puts in a bunch of divine offerings (against
the turbo stasis deck) then the goblin decks will bomb the crap out of
him, because while blue/white has only 8-12 counters, red goblin fire
is at around 24 which means you can't go one for one countering the
fire, you need the cop red.
I think turbostasis can win in the tremendous fashion it did at
nationals again, it just has to lay low a little while. You only get
15 cards in the sideboard so if tstasis loses popularity people will
quit preparing for it.
--- edt
Riku Niittym{ki
Alan Cade <Alan...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
>-Chris Cade
>"Better Lucky Than Good!"
Really?
4 FOW
4 ADenial
4 Counterspell
4 Stasis
4 Boomerang
4 LD's Vault
4 Howling mines
2 Despotic
1 Cane
1 ZOrb
1 ITower
1 Vice
2 Kismet
1 Balance
3 Disenchant
+land
The stasis+mines will come fast, real fast. your 1st disenchant will
get countered and you wont get a second one. WOrb will hit a disnchant, Icys
wont be a prob: they wont be untapping anytime soon...
No, I'm not saying TStasis will sweep the prison, I'm saying it defenetly
has a fighting chance vs prison. Maybe even more than that, even have an
edge on prison? Hard to say...maybe you should put some FOWs in your
sideboard?
Riksa
--
"Everybody dies, but only a few ever truly lives."
Alan Cade
Riksa,
Apparently you are unfamiliar with "The Prison" and the way it works.
TStasis is no challenge for "The Prison," and if you believe that one
Disenchant/Offering is all I'll ever get to cast- you are a moron. No
TStasis deck is lucky enough to get the Stasis lock that quickly with the
Kismet as well. I think you need to rethink your strategies on beating
"The Prison" and switch to a deck that doesn't allow "The Prison" to
capitalize upon your deck's weaknesses.
David Field
EFT...@prodigy.com (Justin Schuetz) wrote:
>
> I hate Turbo Stasis.
> I was playing in my local type II tourney, and I swept my first round
> opponent who was playing a titania's song deck (i was playing prison).
> Second round: Turbo Stasis. I lost. I lost badly. If I hadn't of drawn
> an armageddon in the second game I would have been swept. What prison
> strategy beats turbo stasis? the only one that worked for me is play
> nothing until i have 4 lands out and he has stasis in play (with lots o
> land as well) i cast armageddon praying he has no counterspell (i don't
> care too much for force of will) and then put a land down and play a vise
> if i have one. this is the only way i can conceive of beating turbo
> played was outclassed by my minor land destruction strategy. necropotence
> didn't know what to do with just 1 swamp per turn. willowgeddon? please
> that is such a poor deck against prison. well it was fun though, i was
> playing without millstones, so the games were quite long...........
>
>
Excuse me for being stupid but what is a prison deck?
Michael J Flores
Riku Niittym{ki (rn5...@uta.fi) wrote:
: Really?
: 4 FOW
: 4 ADenial
: 4 Counterspell
: 4 Stasis
: 4 Boomerang
: 4 LD's Vault
: 4 Howling mines
: 2 Despotic
: 1 Cane
: 1 ZOrb
: 1 ITower
: 1 Vice
: 2 Kismet
: 1 Balance
: 3 Disenchant
: +land
: The stasis+mines will come fast, real fast. your 1st disenchant will
: get countered and you wont get a second one. WOrb will hit a disnchant, Icys
: wont be a prob: they wont be untapping anytime soon...
That's really nice in theory, but in practice, the white mana control
decks (both the Prison and Song Deck) are more than capable of crushing
Turbo Stasis. Almost every non creature control card in these decks is a
threat to Turbo Stasis. You had better have a counterspell for every
Winter Orb, Armageddon, Black Vise, and Icy Manipulator, because you had
better believe that the White control player will have a Disenchant or
Divine Offering ready for your control cards--remember, he is drawing
plenty from your Howling Mines.
: No, I'm not saying TStasis will sweep the prison, I'm saying it defenetly
: has a fighting chance vs prison. Maybe even more than that, even have an
: edge on prison? Hard to say...maybe you should put some FOWs in your
: sideboard?
Turbo Stasis might take the first game, as it very often does against
most decks. After the sideboard, though, when the Prison player can yank
all of his wasted creature control (Wraths, Swords, etc) and fill those
slots with more Winter Orb, Divine Offering, and in some cases Serra
Angel, the Turbo Stasis player had better watch out. There is just not
enough reaction in the deck for all of that. One Winter Orb will beat
him. One Black Vise will beat him. One Serra surely will...
How can you guarantee counterspells ready for all of this especially when
one of the key cards (Force of Will) usually Mind Twists away a second
counterspell for a most un-economical exchange? Worst of all for the
Turbo Stasis player, the ability to untap only one land will almost
completely stop the ability to maintain the Stasis lock, let alone allow
for counterspell ability.
Mike Flores
: Riksa
Riku Niittym{ki
Alan Cade <Alan...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Riksa,
> Apparently you are unfamiliar with "The Prison" and the way it works.
>TStasis is no challenge for "The Prison," and if you believe that one
>Disenchant/Offering is all I'll ever get to cast- you are a moron. No
>TStasis deck is lucky enough to get the Stasis lock that quickly with the
>Kismet as well. I think you need to rethink your strategies on beating
>"The Prison" and switch to a deck that doesn't allow "The Prison" to
>capitalize upon your deck's weaknesses.
>-Chris Cade
Bleah. Apparently you are unfamiliar with turbostasis ;)
Or you've played vs poor TS players.
TStasis works extremely well vs all(most all) non-blue control decks (R/W
being exception), why? I'll tell you why.
If you are not killing TS extremely fast (ie. forcing him into premature
stasis), there will be no stasis. There will be no mines. There will be no
kismet. Nothing. Absolutely TS player will refuse to play a permanent.
(Other than land)
Armageddon will be countered by TS player at this point, vice will too or
then it'll just be disenchanted, nothing else will. nothing. (Okay, 3rd icy
with WOrb would, but that's extreme luck if you manage to draw that much icys)
Then, after enough sitting back, it will hit you. Starting with manashort, on
your upkeep or after you play a land, depending on TS players tastes. Then
stasis and kismet. turn goes, you do nothing. boomerang+mine+stasis and you're
locked.
And TS has time to wait for the cards he needs.
The point is, TS player doesnt give you a chance to use those disenchants
and offerings. Prisons threats are just the 'geddons (And the vice).
That's the way TS wins most low damage decks (That cant match TS's countering
ability)
Absolutely a TS player who brings his mines in open field for destruction
is a moron who deserves to be squished :)
Riksa
P.S. TS is very boring.
Craig Sivils
rn5...@uta.fi (Riku Niittym{ki) wrote:
>Alan Cade <Alan...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>-Chris Cade
Oh Really? While I don't think TS just rolls over and dies, neither
does the prison. Did it occur to you that your much beloved mana
short won't tap their felwars? Good thing a felwar can only produce
white if you have a white mana land, ooops :) And if your going to
save counters for the geddons, then I suppose you'll let the winter
orbs and icy's through? I suppose your also playing against a
non-mishra factory version of the prison, as well as a version that
doesn't have any arcane denials.
And your going to play stasis+kismet+have at least two blue for the
boomerang? Turn 8 if you drew enough land? And hope your opponent
didn't use a strip mine. Without any howlers out, those 8 counters
are going to be spread awfully thin by the time turn 8 gets around.
I agree there are times when going slow with TS is strategic, but
prison decks aren't always slow to get a threat out.
Craig
ja...@jove.acs.unt.edu
> rn5...@uta.fi (Riku Niittym{ki) wrote:
> > Bleah. Apparently you are unfamiliar with turbostasis ;)
> >Or you've played vs poor TS players.
> >TStasis works extremely well vs all(most all) non-blue control decks (R/W
> >being exception), why? I'll tell you why.
> >
> > If you are not killing TS extremely fast (ie. forcing him into premature
> >stasis), there will be no stasis. There will be no mines. There will be no
> >kismet. Nothing. Absolutely TS player will refuse to play a permanent.
> >(Other than land)
> >Armageddon will be countered by TS player at this point, vice will too or
If you havn't done *anything*, and are still countering my threats, then
the
vise isn't going down. Maybe it will go down after you empty your hand
for
the lock. [mana short, boomerang, karma, stasis, mine, land - with some
quick
odds calculations based on how many counters you've cast - I'd probably
feel comfortable casting it.]
> >then it'll just be disenchanted, nothing else will. nothing. (Okay, 3rd icy
> >with WOrb would, but that's extreme luck if you manage to draw that much icys)
I've been playing a "prison-like" deck ever since IceAge came out (so
don't
believe me), and I don't see how this could happen. Cards is my deck
(*before
sideboarding*) that can be problematic to TS include:
* 3 winter orbs (early)
* 2 Ankh of Mishra
* 4 geddon
* 1 Balance
* 5 Artifact Killers
* 1 Feldon's cane (nice bait - can make the difference)
* 1 Black Vice (more coming with Mirage)
* 5 Artifact mana (more on this later)
That's 22 cards, not counting Icies. 17 if you let the artifact mana
and icies
hit the board.
A word on the feldon's threat:
If put out early, and you allow me to put out my icies and artifact
mana, then
I can deck *you* even if I wind up locked (by tapping mines at the
proper time).
This would "never happen" - but if it comes down to the wire it's enough
to win
the game. The point is most players would spend a counter/disenchant on
it (if
they noticed that fellwar stone standing untapped).
> >Then, after enough sitting back, it will hit you. Starting with manashort, on
> >your upkeep or after you play a land, depending on TS players tastes. Then
> >stasis and kismet. turn goes, you do nothing. boomerang+mine+stasis and you're
> >locked.
> >And TS has time to wait for the cards he needs.
If you let me get the artifact mana out then I still have a shot here,
which
means you better have some FoWs left. I'd say that you don't have any
FoWs
left if we've reached this point - since you had *a lot* of stuff to
counter.
I'll disenchant the kismit, and now we're back to the question of how
many
FoWs can you draw in one game.
> >The point is, TS player doesnt give you a chance to use those disenchants
> >and offerings. Prisons threats are just the 'geddons (And the vice).
Winter orb, artifact mana, balance, and disenchants (due to artifact
mana) are
all a threat to the "wait and lock" plan you outlined above. The Ankhs
of Mishra
don't exactly make it fun to draw the land to keep the stasis going, so
I'd
say you need to get rid of them too. After sideboarding I think TS
really crashes
and burns.
elihu feustel
I have played against Turbo-stasis, and even tried to run one before Lim-dul's vault
was available. The problem is Turbo-Stasis MUST have a howling mine in play
to have a chance. If you are running any kind of balanced deck, you have at LEAST
4-5 ways to kill artifacts.
Never played with a prison deck either, but it seems like an Icey could
really shut down t-stasis by tapping the mines every chance they get.
Ever see t-stasis beat land destruction? didn't think so...
Or how about t-stasis versus a strong counter deck?
Most turbo-stasis decks are a "one-shot pony". If it is not possible for your deck to
win a match after being capped twice, it is too narrow.
Elihu
Erik Mooney
I love TStasis... gotta leap to its defense here =)
> You are still unfamiliar with The Prison. If that is your strategy-
> massacred you will be. :) With 4 Icys, 4 Worbs (after sideboarding), 8
> Artifact Defense, 4 'Geddons, Balance, and 4 Countermagic- TStasis will be
> forced to counter spells almost every turn if it doesn't cast Stasis. And
> if it prematurely casts Stasis- it will get massacred. I've played
> against good and bad TStasis, and many other players of The Prison have as
> well. We are mostly (to my knowledge) of the consensus that TStasis
> doesn't just lose to The Prison- it gets massacred. I haven't lost to
> TStasis yet- and those Prison players who have lost to TStasis asked for
> my advice. Now they don't lose to TStasis either.
A lone Icy isn't a threat at all.. it ties up one of the Prison's lands,
and all it does is cancel one of TStasis' lands if TStasis doesn't play
any permanents, which it shouldn't against the Prison (I'd likely play a
Kismet as long as I had mana for counters to back it up, and maybe a
Despotic Scepter, but nothing else - those are both essentially
unaffected by Icies.) Icies are meaningless without something to back
it up.
WOrbs are a threat, but TStasis (at least my version of it - its
somewhat different from the archetype) has 10 counters, 2 Disenchants
(+2 in sideboard - I side out Wraths of God and Glacial Chasms against
Prison) and 2 Boomerangs to deal with it.. also remember that a
Boomerang or Disenchant will likely be done at the end of Prison's turn,
allowing TStasis to untap fully. A Mana Short to go along with that
Boomerang or Disenchant allows Stasis to be cast easily and locks it for
TStasis. Granted, any of these could be countered, but you mentioned
only 4 countermagic in your deck.. my TStasis has 8, so it should
usually win a counter war.
Armageddon? Affects both players equally unless Prison's got Fellwars
out.. in that case, it takes 4 mana to cast Armageddon, so TStasis will
either have the mana to win a counter war, or have been hoarding lands
in hand to rebuild quickly.
Balance isn't too important - only one in the deck, and if its not
countered, TStasis will lose at most a couple lands and one or two cards
in hand (same as Force of Willing it. - TStasis can easily discard
HMines against Prison.)
Same with Black Vise - easily countered, disenchanted, or neutralized
with Ivory Tower.
The Prison can, admittedly, neutralize just about every threat TStasis
has as well, though, so stalemate ensues. I think my TStasis has more
to break that stalemate than Prison does, though.. Feldon's Cane will
help me more than you because I'm not playing any permanents, so my
graveyard will be thicker than yours. I also have one Soldevi Digger
that, if I can play and protect, will keep me from running out of cards
forever.. I also have a Recall to get me back the Digger and/or
Disenchants if I need, or counters.
> Every TStasis deck I have played, I have massacred. I have no reason to
> believe that many TStasis decks will even be a slight challenge.
Every Prison deck I have played, I have massacred (of course, I've only
played one match against Prison with my TStasis) =)
Cool Hands
Pardon me, could someone please explain to me in brief what you mean
by a 'Prison' deck? I know what Turbo Stasis is, but I have no idea
what a 'Prison' deck is.
Cliff Wallach
In article <324C2D...@attila.stevens-tech.edu>,
With one exception, I've always defeated artifact control decks with
TStasis. The key card is Hurkyls Recall. Let them play their Felwars,
Winter Orbs, Icies. A timely Hurkyls Recall followed by Howling mine
& Stasis locks the game.
Cliff Wallach
elihu feustel
> My current type II deck has 3 Hypnotic Specter's and if they get capped
> or otherwise destroyed I have only Tormod's Crypt-Feldon's Cane to win.
>
> Just because my deck is vulnerable to a successful cap doesn't mean
> playing with 4 caps is a sure way to beat me.
The point wasn't so much that I might cap you twice. Rather, if the removal,
destruction, or countering of 6 cards can beat a deck, it is too narrow.
Elihu
Bryan Petersen
elihu feustel wrote:
[Snip]
>
> Most turbo-stasis decks are a "one-shot pony". If it is not possible for your deck to
>
> Elihu
A deck that cannot win after being capped twice is NOT necessarily too
narrow. The trick is to not get capped twice.
My current type II deck has 3 Hypnotic Specter's and if they get capped
or otherwise destroyed I have only Tormod's Crypt-Feldon's Cane to win.
Just because my deck is vulnerable to a successful cap doesn't mean
playing with 4 caps is a sure way to beat me.
--
#include <signature.h>
+--------------------+---------------------------------------+
| Bryan Petersen | "Then what can I say? How can I |
| bry...@halcyon.com | disprove lies that are stamped with |
| Seattle, WA | an official seal of the truth?" |
| Green Day, Garbage | Special Agent Fox Mulder, FBI |
+--------------------+---------------------------------------+
ja...@jove.acs.unt.edu
elihu feustel wrote:
> The point wasn't so much that I might cap you twice. Rather, if the removal,
> destruction, or countering of 6 cards can beat a deck, it is too narrow.
I'm no advocate of TS (as I think it is too narrow) - but I have to
disagree.
If you only have 6 cards that "directly" beat your opponent, but the
rest of your
cards ensure that one of those 6 is succesful (The Deck), then I think
your
deck is focused and proactive - as opposed to "too narrow."
OTOH, if your deck only has 6 cards that are winners - and much of your
deck
is to *get those cards* (TS) then I think your deck is too narrow. That
is a
major distinction. IMO, offensive speed does not equal effective
disruption.
Ciao...
ja...@jove.acs.unt.edu
Cliff Wallach wrote:
> With one exception, I've always defeated artifact control decks with
> TStasis. The key card is Hurkyls Recall. Let them play their Felwars,
> Winter Orbs, Icies. A timely Hurkyls Recall followed by Howling mine
> & Stasis locks the game.
Hehehehe! that's funny. My "Torture Chamber" (prison-like) deck uses
Hurkyls Recall in much the same way. Let them play their fellwars,
mines,
whatever. A timely Hurkyls Recall, followed by a vise/worb wins the
game. (Icies, as always, are already in play)
Ciao...
Elliot C Fertik
elihu feustel (el...@mixi.net) wrote:
: I have played against Turbo-stasis, and even tried to run one before Lim-dul's vault
: was available. The problem is Turbo-Stasis MUST have a howling mine in play
: to have a chance. If you are running any kind of balanced deck, you have at LEAST
: 4-5 ways to kill artifacts.
: Never played with a prison deck either, but it seems like an Icey could
: really shut down t-stasis by tapping the mines every chance they get.
: Ever see t-stasis beat land destruction? didn't think so...
: Or how about t-stasis versus a strong counter deck?
: Most turbo-stasis decks are a "one-shot pony". If it is not possible for your deck to
: win a match after being capped twice, it is too narrow.
: Elihu
Well, I was skeptical about T-stasis until I played it yesterday at the
New Jersey tourney. Folks, the damn thing DOES WORK. You are absolutely
right of course - the howling Mines are the key - but you have enough
counterspells to protect them from disenchants and shatters.
Also, with T-stasis, you have to be willing to statis even if you know
you can't support it for more then a few turns. Particularly if you have
a Disposic Sceptre out, you will be able to get a huge advantage over
your opponent.
Counterspell decks are a pain, however - IF THEY PACK FORCE OF WILL.
Otherwise, they will run out of mana rather rapidly.
Still, I went 4-1 with the T-stasis deck at the tourney (it was single
elim, a cheesy red LD/DD deck eventually beat me.
-Elliot Fertik
Vincent Saldell
rn5...@uta.fi (Riku Niittym{ki) writes:
>Alan Cade <Alan...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>Riksa,
>> Apparently you are unfamiliar with "The Prison" and the way it works.
>>TStasis is no challenge for "The Prison," and if you believe that one
>>Disenchant/Offering is all I'll ever get to cast- you are a moron. No
>>TStasis deck is lucky enough to get the Stasis lock that quickly with the
>>Kismet as well. I think you need to rethink your strategies on beating
>>"The Prison" and switch to a deck that doesn't allow "The Prison" to
>>capitalize upon your deck's weaknesses.
>>-Chris Cade
> Bleah. Apparently you are unfamiliar with turbostasis ;)
>Or you've played vs poor TS players.
>TStasis works extremely well vs all(most all) non-blue control decks (R/W
>being exception), why? I'll tell you why.
> If you are not killing TS extremely fast (ie. forcing him into premature
>stasis), there will be no stasis. There will be no mines. There will be no
>kismet. Nothing. Absolutely TS player will refuse to play a permanent.
>(Other than land)
>Armageddon will be countered by TS player at this point, vice will too or
>then it'll just be disenchanted, nothing else will. nothing. (Okay, 3rd icy
>with WOrb would, but that's extreme luck if you manage to draw that much icys)
>Then, after enough sitting back, it will hit you. Starting with manashort, on
>your upkeep or after you play a land, depending on TS players tastes. Then
>stasis and kismet. turn goes, you do nothing. boomerang+mine+stasis and you're
>locked.
>And TS has time to wait for the cards he needs.
>The point is, TS player doesnt give you a chance to use those disenchants
>and offerings. Prisons threats are just the 'geddons (And the vice).
> That's the way TS wins most low damage decks (That cant match TS's countering
>ability)
>Absolutely a TS player who brings his mines in open field for destruction
>is a moron who deserves to be squished :)
>Riksa
>P.S. TS is very boring.
Uh?
The Prison has before sideboarding 4 disenchant, 1 divine offering,
4 armageddon & 3 winter orbs that are good business cards vs turbo-
stasis. After sideboarding he will have 2 more divine offerings and
also 2 arcane denials. That is 16 cards against turbostasis, turbo-
stasis has 7-8 counterspells - there is no way he can stop a prison-
player with those - also some prisonplayers use kismet as well, and
that is the best cards ever made vs turbostasis :-)
If you play turbostasis vs a normal orbdeck it has a good chance,
but both orbs and armageddon will annihilate a turbostasis deck.
Oh I forgot to include a black vise as well... (neutralized by
ivory tower though - if turboguy draws it - and it doesnt get
disenchanted)
-Vincent
Elliot C Fertik
Vincent Saldell (ro...@lysator.liu.se) wrote:
: >Alan Cade <Alan...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
: >>-Chris Cade
: >Riksa
: Uh?
: -Vincent
Turbostasis has a good sideboard cards against the Prison as well -
Hurkyl's Recall! I play it during my opponent's discard phase, and
suddenly all those lovely orbs, icies and feldwar stones go back to his
hand. Gee, looks like your're going to have to discard even more then
you thought won't you?!
However, I will agree that a winter orb is one of the deadlier things to
put in against turbostasis. However, I still have my counterspells, and
usually I only need to counterspell one or two cards before the stasis
lock comes down. The real problem for Turbo-stasis is a a serious
counterdeck with Force of Wills. The Force can counter your crucial
cards, and you may not always be able to win the counterspell war. (BTW,
I've thought of adding some more counterspells to the sideboard of my
Turbo deck - but I'm not sure they would work..
-Elliot Fertik
Craig Sivils
elt...@pl.jaring.my (Cool Hands) wrote:
Mostly white with winter orb's, felwars and icy's.
Lock their mana down with orb lock/geddons and do mean things to them.
Craig
Riku Niittymäki
ja...@jove.acs.unt.edu writes:
>> rn5...@uta.fi (Riku Niittym{ki) wrote:
>> > Bleah. Apparently you are unfamiliar with turbostasis ;)
>> >Or you've played vs poor TS players.
>> >TStasis works extremely well vs all(most all) non-blue control decks (R/W
>> >being exception), why? I'll tell you why.
>> >
>> > If you are not killing TS extremely fast (ie. forcing him into premature
>> >stasis), there will be no stasis. There will be no mines. There will be no
>> >kismet. Nothing. Absolutely TS player will refuse to play a permanent.
>> >(Other than land)
>> >Armageddon will be countered by TS player at this point, vice will too or
>If you havn't done *anything*, and are still countering my threats, then
>the
>vise isn't going down. Maybe it will go down after you empty your hand
>for
>the lock. [mana short, boomerang, karma, stasis, mine, land - with some
>quick
After the lock, you wont be casting anything.
>odds calculations based on how many counters you've cast - I'd probably
>feel comfortable casting it.]
And that's the whole quetion: How many counters can you force TS player
to use before the lock (Which is almost inevitable).
>> >then it'll just be disenchanted, nothing else will. nothing. (Okay, 3rd icy
>> >with WOrb would, but that's extreme luck if you manage to draw that much icys)
>I've been playing a "prison-like" deck ever since IceAge came out (so
>don't
>believe me), and I don't see how this could happen. Cards is my deck
I do believe you, many have played "Prison style", but most played
less white and more Blue.
>(*before
>sideboarding*) that can be problematic to TS include:
>* 3 winter orbs (early)
Not a prob. There's no hurry in disenchanting them.
>* 2 Ankh of Mishra
These are _really_ a problem for TS. If you play with these,
you might have a slight edge.
>* 4 geddon
I thought "standard" prison plays 3.
>* 1 Balance
Only if you got a Zorb.
>* 5 Artifact Killers
Not a prob: Artifacts wont be played 'till you're locked.
>* 1 Feldon's cane (nice bait - can make the difference)
Not a prob. Can be disenchanted/Boomeranged after you're locked.
>* 1 Black Vice (more coming with Mirage)
A prob.
>* 5 Artifact mana (more on this later)
Not a serious prob. If you got 3 or less artifact mana, you'll cast
(Likely) just one threat. Just keep a FOW in hand when you're locking.
If you have that vice in hand (With disenchant or something), tough.
>That's 22 cards, not counting Icies. 17 if you let the artifact mana
>and icies
>hit the board.
Now, that's a bit much. 7 threats+the artifact mana. Absolutely
counterable amount for TS with 12 counters.
>A word on the feldon's threat:
>If put out early, and you allow me to put out my icies and artifact
>mana, then
>I can deck *you* even if I wind up locked (by tapping mines at the
>proper time).
>This would "never happen" - but if it comes down to the wire it's enough
>to win
>the game. The point is most players would spend a counter/disenchant on
>it (if
>they noticed that fellwar stone standing untapped).
Kinda unlikely.
>> >Then, after enough sitting back, it will hit you. Starting with manashort, on
>> >your upkeep or after you play a land, depending on TS players tastes. Then
>> >stasis and kismet. turn goes, you do nothing. boomerang+mine+stasis and you're
>> >locked.
>> >And TS has time to wait for the cards he needs.
>If you let me get the artifact mana out then I still have a shot here,
>which
>means you better have some FoWs left. I'd say that you don't have any
>FoWs
>left if we've reached this point - since you had *a lot* of stuff to
>counter.
The question is: How many counters can you force out of TS. Good TS
player will save as many as he can and react only to "must counters"
like armageddon.
>I'll disenchant the kismit, and now we're back to the question of how
>many
>FoWs can you draw in one game.
Heh heh. 12 counters...
>> >The point is, TS player doesnt give you a chance to use those disenchants
>> >and offerings. Prisons threats are just the 'geddons (And the vice).
>Winter orb, artifact mana, balance, and disenchants (due to artifact
>mana) are
>all a threat to the "wait and lock" plan you outlined above. The Ankhs
>of Mishra
>don't exactly make it fun to draw the land to keep the stasis going, so
>I'd
>say you need to get rid of them too. After sideboarding I think TS
>really crashes
>and burns.
Ankhs are a terrible threat, I agree. But what will you side?
Artifact destruction isnt good, 'cause you wont be able to use it. Counter
spells would certainly rock (If you can handle UU, or just FOW) ankhs
naturally, but they are not that good vs many other decktypes. A serra
could be a nasty surprise after TS sides his SToPs away...
Riksa
Jeff Donais
I don't know why Chris, maybe it's because the prison is getting popular
in your area, and you are credited with using it most vocally in your
area - but you seem to be quickly reaching asshole status. Your statements
are just way too sweeping and arrogant. Why don't you take a break from
the newsgroups for awhile and go to the beach or something?
Take Care,
Jeff
On 27 Sep 1996, Alan Cade wrote:
> >>Riksa,
> >> Apparently you are unfamiliar with "The Prison" and the way it works.
> >>TStasis is no challenge for "The Prison," and if you believe that one
> >>Disenchant/Offering is all I'll ever get to cast- you are a moron. No
> >>TStasis deck is lucky enough to get the Stasis lock that quickly with the
> >>Kismet as well. I think you need to rethink your strategies on beating
> >>"The Prison" and switch to a deck that doesn't allow "The Prison" to
> >>capitalize upon your deck's weaknesses.
> >
> >>-Chris Cade
> You are still unfamiliar with The Prison. If that is your strategy-
> massacred you will be. :) With 4 Icys, 4 Worbs (after sideboarding), 8
> Artifact Defense, 4 'Geddons, Balance, and 4 Countermagic- TStasis will be
> forced to counter spells almost every turn if it doesn't cast Stasis. And
> if it prematurely casts Stasis- it will get massacred. I've played
> against good and bad TStasis, and many other players of The Prison have as
> well. We are mostly (to my knowledge) of the consensus that TStasis
> doesn't just lose to The Prison- it gets massacred. I haven't lost to
> TStasis yet- and those Prison players who have lost to TStasis asked for
> my advice. Now they don't lose to TStasis either.
>
> Every TStasis deck I have played, I have massacred. I have no reason to
> believe that many TStasis decks will even be a slight challenge.
>
Malkav IV
You lost to the guy who beat me the third round at edison? All red,
erons, ld, dd,etc? That deck was so bad, I lost because drawing I drew
one land the first game, and the second game he drew 3 fireballs in a row
(as in, no hand, drew 3 fireballs). Regarding t-stasis...you and Steve O
were the only ones who played it, and went a combined 7-2. Not too bad,
especially when you consider Steve beat Dave B. 1st round. THere's a deck
that sideboards up to 8 artifact destruction, but he's lost to TS two
tourneys in a row. At Philly Grey Matter, when I lost in final 4 type II,
a t-stasis made sealed finals. Despite the fact that yes, the deck is
narrow, and yes, if your opponent manages to pull most of their artifact
destruction you'll lose, the deck is still effective. The key is the
mines...remember, this is a deck with 8 counters, PLUS 4 boomerangs which
can also save mines, PLUS recalls which can bring the back. Stasis is
going to be very big starting tomorrow. Remember all you t-stasis
players...beat prison with hyrkll's recall! Later...
Matt Elias
PS Elliot, I know you by name, if you saw me you'd know who I am (i've
seen you at Edison, the Gamer's Edge $1000 on Aug. 17th, etc)
Sean C. O'Brien
>I don't know why Chris, maybe it's because the prison is getting popular
>in your area, and you are credited with using it most vocally in your
>area - but you seem to be quickly reaching asshole status. Your statements
>are just way too sweeping and arrogant. Why don't you take a break from
>the newsgroups for awhile and go to the beach or something?
Seems somebody else has noticed as well, i remember him as being a
pleasant, informative poster a while back . Now his replies are mostly
arrogant spew ... He just needs to relax a little, somebody mentions a
possible weakness for his deck and it's like they just beat his mother
...
<much hostile big-headed banter snipped>
>> -Chris Cade
>>
>> "Better Lucky Than Good!"
"Better Arrogant than Humble"
GzzzzzzzzUzzzzzzzzzNNzzzzzzzzzzAzzzzzSMzzzzzzzAzzzzz
SzzzzzzzzzzzHzzzMzzzzzzzzYzzzzzzzSEzzzzzzzzzzzzzLzzF
zzzzzTzzzzzzOzzzzzPzzzzzzIEzzzzzzzzzCzzzzEzzzzzzzzSz
IzzzzzzzzzDzzzzzzzzzONzzzzzzzzzTzzzzzKzzNzzzzzzOWzzz
zzzzzzWHzzzAzzTzzzzEzzzzzLzzzSzzzzzzzzzzzzzETzzzzzOzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzDzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzOzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
Malkav IV
Regarding counterspells in the T-stasis sideboard, I think they are a good
idea against slower decks. I was wondering what those of you who have ran
the deck in several tourneys sideboard out against Prison decks for the
shorts and hyrkll's.
Matt Elias
Alan Cade
Jeff Donais <don...@server.uwindsor.ca> wrote:
>
>
>I don't know why Chris, maybe it's because the prison is getting popular
>in your area, and you are credited with using it most vocally in your
>area - but you seem to be quickly reaching asshole status. Your statements
>are just way too sweeping and arrogant. Why don't you take a break from
>the newsgroups for awhile and go to the beach or something?
>
>
>Jeff
Thank you. :) I seem to come across as an asshole quite easily. Also, I
have taken a break from the newsgroups as some have noticed. To be honest
though- I think I'm just tired of hearing about everyone and their miracle
deck/miracle strategies to beat "The Prison" which simply aren't
miraculously as effective as people think they are. Most of these players
neglect to realize that The Prison isn't an easy deck to play correctly.
Actually, it is difficult to play- but when played well, it will not have
a problem with many of the strategies people think will beat The Prison.
However, in the hands of an unskilled user, The Prison will not win- no
matter what type of deck you play it against. The Prison isn't mindless-
so in order to win, you really have to know what you're doing; and if you
know what you're doing- most of these 'miracle' decks/strategies will
prove ineffective. I'm not saying that The Prison is invincible- I'm just
saying that most people are too caught up in trying to prove me wrong
about everything, that they fail to take a significant look at the deck
and find out what makes it win against so many different decks. A simple
example of the cause of my frustration is when people like Steve Liu are
absolutely positive that The Prison will lose to decks such as white
weenie- which is completely false.
Perhaps it isn't the deck, but the player. I don't know. All I do know,
is that in the hands of a skilled player, The Prison will beat most decks,
and not have a significantly difficult time with the 'miracle'
decks/strategies that some seem to think are so great.
-Chris Cade
"Better Lucky Than Good!"
>On 27 Sep 1996, Alan Cade wrote:
>
>> >>Riksa,
>> >> Apparently you are unfamiliar with "The Prison" and the way it works.
>> >>TStasis is no challenge for "The Prison," and if you believe that one
>> >>Disenchant/Offering is all I'll ever get to cast- you are a moron. No
>> >>TStasis deck is lucky enough to get the Stasis lock that quickly with the
>> >>Kismet as well. I think you need to rethink your strategies on beating
>> >>"The Prison" and switch to a deck that doesn't allow "The Prison" to
>> >>capitalize upon your deck's weaknesses.
>> >
>> >>-Chris Cade
>
>> You are still unfamiliar with The Prison. If that is your strategy-
>> massacred you will be. :) With 4 Icys, 4 Worbs (after sideboarding), 8
>> Artifact Defense, 4 'Geddons, Balance, and 4 Countermagic- TStasis will be
>> forced to counter spells almost every turn if it doesn't cast Stasis. And
>> if it prematurely casts Stasis- it will get massacred. I've played
>> against good and bad TStasis, and many other players of The Prison have as
>> well. We are mostly (to my knowledge) of the consensus that TStasis
>> doesn't just lose to The Prison- it gets massacred. I haven't lost to
>> TStasis yet- and those Prison players who have lost to TStasis asked for
>> my advice. Now they don't lose to TStasis either.
>>
>> Every TStasis deck I have played, I have massacred. I have no reason to
>> believe that many TStasis decks will even be a slight challenge.
>>
Eu Gene
Cool Hands wrote:
>
> Pardon me, could someone please explain to me in brief what you mean
> by a 'Prison' deck? I know what Turbo Stasis is, but I have no idea
> what a 'Prison' deck is.
Prison .. 4 wraths, 4 swords, 4 disenchants, 1 balance, black vice.
Usually millstones. Add 4 Fellwars / diamonds, 4 Winter Orbs and 4
Armageddon for mana control. You get the idea. Basically you wipe out
everything on board and kill him with the vise or deck him with the
mills.
P.S. For experienced MtG players only. Make it now at your nearest card
shop while stocks last.
Eu Gene,
Malaysia
--
"I hope if dogs ever take over the world, and they chose a
king, they don't just go by size, because I bet there are
some Chihuahuas with some good ideas."
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/4050/
Riku Niittym{ki
elihu feustel <el...@mixi.net> writes:
>I have played against Turbo-stasis, and even tried to run one before Lim-dul's vault
>was available. The problem is Turbo-Stasis MUST have a howling mine in play
>to have a chance. If you are running any kind of balanced deck, you have at LEAST
>4-5 ways to kill artifacts.
>Never played with a prison deck either, but it seems like an Icey could
>really shut down t-stasis by tapping the mines every chance they get.
Nononono. TS _never_ plays his artifacts to open destruction unless
you force him to do something (=You are killing him _fast_). Check the
other posts "The prison vs Turbostasis" for all the fighting&arguments.
>Ever see t-stasis beat land destruction? didn't think so...
Yes, absolutely have. The trick: Play stasis even if you cant
support it. You'll be drawing&playing land while stasis stays.
>Or how about t-stasis versus a strong counter deck?
FOWs are bad, but it'll all come down to the crusial manashort: Who
wins the counterspell war and TS gets to choose the time he casts it.
>Most turbo-stasis decks are a "one-shot pony". If it is not possible for your deck to
>win a match after being capped twice, it is too narrow.
A lot of control decks cant win after being capped twice.
And if you get capped twice while playing TS, your deck has already failed:
capping is just like a fireball then(=Either can kill at that point).
Riksa
Vincent Saldell
ri...@joensuu.fi (Riku Niittymaki) writes:
>ja...@jove.acs.unt.edu writes:
>>* 4 geddon
>>* 1 Balance
>>* 5 Artifact Killers
> A prob.
> Kinda unlikely.
> Heh heh. 12 counters...
>Riksa
Ok, sorry for not cutting anything, but Im too lazy :-)
I've been trying turbostasis vs the prison for a couple of days
now (also testing out different sideboard cards) and found out
(to my surprise actually) that they are pretty even.
And that is both before and after sideboarding. I thought that
the prison would be superior since both armageddon and winter
orb are good cards vs turbostasis, but since the prison only
locks and doesnt do any damage (except for an early lucky vise),
turbostasis doesnt necessary loose when a winter orb hits the
table, and an armageddon thats countered is 4 mana tapped -
making it much easier for turbostasis to lock prison in.
An armageddon that manages to slip through means advantage
prison, but not necessary victory (both decks have loadstone
baubles in sideboard - note: Vincent customization on sideboards).
A card thats good in both decks is hyrkuls recall, so both have
2 of those in sideboard, and that is the card that makes turbo-
stasis not loose vs the prison after sideboarding, rather keeping
pretty much even.
If Id put 4 hyrkuls in turbostasis sideboard I think it would win
and putting a couple of ankhs as well in the prison sideboard,
would make it win - but you have to balance vs other decks as
well so...
A card that really kills both decks is energy flux - it doesnt
just _kill_ them it ***KILLS*** them :-)
If you wanna do good vs both decks, play a merfolk deck with
4 fluxes and lots of counterspells - hehe :)
-Vincent
Alan Cade
And thus we have the beginning of the new Turbo-Merfolk deck. Howling
Mines, Lord Of Atlantis', Hurkyls Recalls, Force of Wills, Counterspells,
Arcane Denials, Boomerangs, and many many Merfolk! ;)
Michael Feuell
Alan Cade <Alan...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>ro...@lysator.liu.se (Vincent Saldell) wrote:
>>A card that really kills both decks is energy flux - it doesnt
>>just _kill_ them it ***KILLS*** them :-)
>>If you wanna do good vs both decks, play a merfolk deck with
>>4 fluxes and lots of counterspells - hehe :)
>>
>>-Vincent
>
>And thus we have the beginning of the new Turbo-Merfolk deck. Howling
>Mines, Lord Of Atlantis', Hurkyls Recalls, Force of Wills, Counterspells,
>Arcane Denials, Boomerangs, and many many Merfolk! ;)
>
>-Chris Cade
Browse, not Howling Mines.... :*)
-Michael
Vincent Saldell
e...@netmarket.com (Michael Feuell) writes:
>Alan Cade <Alan...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>ro...@lysator.liu.se (Vincent Saldell) wrote:
>>>A card that really kills both decks is energy flux - it doesnt
>>>just _kill_ them it ***KILLS*** them :-)
>>>If you wanna do good vs both decks, play a merfolk deck with
>>>4 fluxes and lots of counterspells - hehe :)
>>>
>>>-Vincent
>>
>>And thus we have the beginning of the new Turbo-Merfolk deck. Howling
>>Mines, Lord Of Atlantis', Hurkyls Recalls, Force of Wills, Counterspells,
>>Arcane Denials, Boomerangs, and many many Merfolk! ;)
Hmm.. 4 howlings, lords, hyrkuls, force, counter, arcane, boomerang
equals 28 cards, that doesnt leave many slots for lots of merfolk(?) =)
>>
>>-Chris Cade
>Browse, not Howling Mines.... :*)
>-Michael
Has anyone actually managed to place with a merfolk deck in
any tourney?
How does it fare compared to U/W 12 white knights/12 counters?
-Vincent
Alan Cade
ro...@lysator.liu.se (Vincent Saldell) wrote:
>e...@netmarket.com (Michael Feuell) writes:
>
>>Alan Cade <Alan...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>ro...@lysator.liu.se (Vincent Saldell) wrote:
>>>>just _kill_ them it ***KILLS*** them :-)
>>>>If you wanna do good vs both decks, play a merfolk deck with
>>>>4 fluxes and lots of counterspells - hehe :)
>>>>
>>>>-Vincent
>>>
>>>And thus we have the beginning of the new Turbo-Merfolk deck. Howling
>>>Mines, Lord Of Atlantis', Hurkyls Recalls, Force of Wills, Counterspells,
>>>Arcane Denials, Boomerangs, and many many Merfolk! ;)
>
>equals 28 cards, that doesnt leave many slots for lots of merfolk(?) =)
>
>>>
>>>-Chris Cade
>
>>Browse, not Howling Mines.... :*)
>
>>-Michael
>
>Has anyone actually managed to place with a merfolk deck in
>any tourney?
>How does it fare compared to U/W 12 white knights/12 counters?
>
>-Vincent
The idea for Turbo-Merfolk was actually spawned a few months ago. At
APTP, someone wanted to play his Merfolk deck in the tourney- and wanted
me to look at it first. I put in 4 Mines, and there wasn't much
countermagic- but enough for it to succeed. I don't remember how it did
though. :*(
Francis Keys
EFT...@prodigy.com (Justin Schuetz) wrote:
>I hate Turbo Stasis.
>I was playing in my local type II tourney, and I swept my first round
>opponent who was playing a titania's song deck (i was playing prison).
>Second round: Turbo Stasis. I lost. I lost badly. If I hadn't of drawn
>an armageddon in the second game I would have been swept. What prison
>strategy beats turbo stasis? the only one that worked for me is play
>nothing until i have 4 lands out and he has stasis in play (with lots o
>land as well) i cast armageddon praying he has no counterspell (i don't
>care too much for force of will) and then put a land down and play a vise
>if i have one. this is the only way i can conceive of beating turbo
>stasis with prison. any ideas? other than that the prison is great, it
>made the titania's song weep instead of sing, the land destruction deck i
>played was outclassed by my minor land destruction strategy. necropotence
>didn't know what to do with just 1 swamp per turn. willowgeddon? please
>that is such a poor deck against prison. well it was fun though, i was
>playing without millstones, so the games were quite long...........
>Justin Schuetz
You played wrong. Sideboard a couple of Divine Offering. Don't waste
your Disenchants on Stasis or Kismet. Blast the Howling Mines. Turbo
Stasis is a very fragile deck. If you shut down the flow of cards,
the lock will fall open, only to discover that your Winter Orb only
allows them one island per turn while your Fellwar Stones untap,
allowing you to cast Icy Manipulator and retap their Island during
their upkeep. Refuse the cards from Arcane Denial.
As against any permission deck, save your important spells to be cast
in groups of two or three, although a Tstasis deck without Howlers
running isn't that heavy on permission, it's heavy on land. If you're
playing with Arcane Denial yourself, counter/disenchant his
howlers/cane/vise and protect your own cane and vise.
You're on your way to decking Tstasis, as white ice decks usually do.
He can still beat you if he pulls three Howling Mines early and you
can't respond to them, but you should win most of the time. Smile at
your opponent as he plays Island after useless Island which you
happily tap with your Icy at the end of his turn. Good luck.
Alan Cade
Actually, I never refuse the cards from the Denial... simply because they
allow me to draw more artifact defense to massacre TStasis. :) I also
sideboard in the extra 2 Winter Orbs against TStasis. Usually after
sideboarding, The Prison should shut down TStasis without much difficulty.
8 Artifact defense, 4 Countermagic, 4 Winter Orbs, 4 Armageddons, 4 Icys,
and some wise playing should ensure victory more often than not.
>As against any permission deck, save your important spells to be cast
>in groups of two or three, although a Tstasis deck without Howlers
>running isn't that heavy on permission, it's heavy on land. If you're
>playing with Arcane Denial yourself, counter/disenchant his
>howlers/cane/vise and protect your own cane and vise.
>
>You're on your way to decking Tstasis, as white ice decks usually do.
>He can still beat you if he pulls three Howling Mines early and you
>can't respond to them, but you should win most of the time. Smile at
>your opponent as he plays Island after useless Island which you
>happily tap with your Icy at the end of his turn. Good luck.
-Chris Cade
"Better Lucky Than Good!"
George W. Bayles
Alan Cade (Alan...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) wrote:
[snip]
: Actually, I never refuse the cards from the Denial... simply because they
: sideboard in the extra 2 Winter Orbs against TStasis. Usually after
: sideboarding, The Prison should shut down TStasis without much difficulty.
: 8 Artifact defense, 4 Countermagic, 4 Winter Orbs, 4 Armageddons, 4 Icys,
: and some wise playing should ensure victory more often than not.
Wouldn't a Kismet played against the TStasis deck shut him down totally?
It's another "must-counter" card for him. Replace the Armageddons with
3 Kismet and a Titiana's Song, and you are very close to my "Winter Song"
deck - developed long before the Prison.
Ricky Watts
elihu feustel <el...@mixi.net> wrote:
>> My current type II deck has 3 Hypnotic Specter's and if they get capped
>> or otherwise destroyed I have only Tormod's Crypt-Feldon's Cane to win.
>>
>> Just because my deck is vulnerable to a successful cap doesn't mean
>> playing with 4 caps is a sure way to beat me.
>The point wasn't so much that I might cap you twice. Rather, if the removal,
>destruction, or countering of 6 cards can beat a deck, it is too narrow.
>Elihu
So what your saying is that control decks (The deck, Prison, and most
land destruction and the like) are to narrow allmost all of them
suffer from having only 5 or fewer cards to ensure a win. If a deck is
designed to control a game it will take 90% of the deck to effectivly
do this. I played a type 1 Land destruction with 4 vices as my only
damage. If these were (disenchanted,capped, countered) removed I lost
but the deck won several local tourneys and gathered quite a bit of
reputation.
Askarius