Explanation of why MIND TWIST was banned
Paul Pantera
I have been leading an argument for months on the mtg-strategy-l mailing list
about why I thought Mind Twist should be banned. I thought I'd post a collection
of the emails I wrote because it seems like most people have no idea why it was
banned. Personally, it rejuvinates my faith in the DC and the Magic tourney
system, and I am glad to see it go.
For reference in these emails, Brian Weissman (mentioned repeatedly) is the
local shark who wins most of the Type I tournaments around here. His deck,
"The Deck" is a defense fortress permission deck built around Mind Twist.
From paul Fri Aug 18 16:23:47 1995
To: LIST...@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
I am now going to tell you the secret of success in Type I. Remember
where you heard this. The secret to winning in Type I is CARD
DOMINATION. The player who gets to draw, keep, and use the most cards
wins.
To illustrate this, here's a statement: whichever player gets the
Library of Alexandria or Mind Twist on the draw, wins. When I first
heard Brian say this I said "yeah, right" then I started noting the
draws in type I tournaments, and he was right 10 out of 10. It's
amazing the power of those two cards. I can't believe they didn't
remove Mind Twist, but it's less important without Moxes and Lotus.
> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 10:25:48 EDT
> From: Jeff Boes <J.B...@ZDS.COM>
> Subject: Discard Decks considered harmful? (to future of MtG)
>
>
> Earth to WotC? Come in, WotC? If this is the future of Type II play, then
> I'm not having any, thanks. I thought the core of MtG's design was to
> encourage multi-color, versatile deck design, always changing in response
> to new cards and strategies. The ultimate rock-paper-scissors, everyone
> has said. Type I is dead, since all The Decks look The Same... 40-card
> "original" deck rules are dead, since no one likes to face a Lightning Bolt
> every turn.
Brian Weisman agrees with you. He thinks that Mind Twist should be
banned and Hymn to Tourach should be restricted. You should have seen
him yelling at Tom Wylie after the tournament (the most convenient
WoC representative in the vicinity). The problem is that you never
get a chance. If the discard deck gets lucky you never get a chance
to play your deck at all, and it's simple to make and simple to play.
It's almost like getting Channel-Fireball'ed.
> From t...@nwlink.com Sun Nov 26 01:08:10 1995
>
> pa...@Eng.Sun.COM (Paul Pantera) wrote:
>
> >OK I read the entire thread and now I have to insert my two cents.
> >What I see is some of the best players in the World, who've won
> >hundreds of tournaments each, saying it should be banned. And I see a
> >bunch of RANK BEGINNERS saying it's not that great (see above).
>
> You can't often tell this from a Usenet post; this is a straw man.
> By the way, I am a consistent tournament winner who has no more problem
> with Mind Twist than with Balance, for example.
Balance can be very powerful early in the game, but Mind Twist is the
middle-game spoiler. If it's close and we both have a couple creatures
and 4-5 cards, and we're both waiting to make our move, Mind Twist
is a game ender. Balance is less powerful in this situation.
> > I know
> >Christian Pantages and Brian Weissman, I've heard the arguments, and I
> >agree that it should be banned.
>
> Gratuitous name-dropping will get you nowhere if you can't support
> your assertions.
This isn't gratuitous name dropping. Brian made the original argument
and Chris made the original post. If you'd read the entire thread like
I did, you'd know that. I'm basically saying "I agree with previous
posters."
> >One of you tools said "I've seen Serra Angel win more games than Mind
> >Twist." That's the whole point! When you're a beginner you don't have
> >the insight to go back and analyze why you lost a game. Sure, it was
> >the Serra that killed you, but the Mind Twist seven turns ago made you
> >discard two disenchants, two swords, and two counterspells, leaving you
> >defenseless. It was the Mind Twist that killed you, not the Serra.
>
> Completely fictional argument. Anybody would see the Mind Twist win
> in this case. Give us all a break.
You'd be surprised. Some beginning Magic players have a hard time figuring
out cause and effect.
> Paul, Mind Twist is a great card. It's just not irretrievably broken
> like you think it is. If you are really the Magic player you think you
> are, you would know that the speed of most tournament decks empties
> hands quickly anyway, and that first or second Mind Twist plays that are
> really damaging are rare (especially considering its restricted status).
>
> Balance in particular is equally dangerous, as well as the Lotus -
> will you ban these too? Where does it stop?
You are a tool. Good tournament decks don't empty their hands quickly.
Good tournament decks use the Library of Alexandria. Besides, as I
said above, I'm not talking about a first turn Mind Twist (although
that's bad too) but more of a middle-game twist.
-Paul
> From mse...@madison.k12.wi.us Sun Nov 26 10:51:36 1995
>
> pa...@Eng.Sun.COM (Paul Pantera) wrote:
>
> >OK I read the entire thread and now I have to insert my two cents.
> >What I see is some of the best players in the World, who've won
> >hundreds of tournaments each, saying it should be banned. And I see a
> >bunch of RANK BEGINNERS saying it's not that great (see above). I know
> >Christian Pantages and Brian Weissman, I've heard the arguments, and I
> >agree that it should be banned.
>
> So basically, since I think that Mind Twist should stay, that means I'm
> a rank beginner?
Hm. Look again at what I wrote. That's not what I said. I was referring
specifically to the people that had responded to Chris' post about Mind
Twist. If you are one of the people who said "I've only ever seen it
played once" or "I've been killed more times with a Serra Angel" then
yes, you are a rank beginner.
> And you think it should be banned because...Brian and
> Christian say so?
Hm. Look again at what I wrote. That's not what I said. I'm just saying
that I agree with them.
> Well, I know they're your role models and everything,
> but they are wrong. Mind Twist might decide a lot of games, but it is
> not an auto-win. It is not powerful enough to ban, although it may be
> good.
If your opponent is holding three counterspells, you're at twelve life,
your opponent has a Disrupting Scepter and a Serra out, and you are
Mind Twister for all of your cards, then it's an auto win (unless you
have multiple-card drawing effects like the Tome). But in too many
cases it's the deciding factor of the game.
> >Around here, our pet name for Mind Twist is "Destroy Fun." As in "I
> >cast Destroy Fun for Three." It should be banned. Now let's talk
> >about the Library.
>
> Destroy fun? So ban it in your own playing group, and don't ruin it for
> all the other real Magic players out there.
My playing group usually consists of whoever shows up for the Type I
tournaments, so I can't really ban it there (well actually, I'm trying).
-Paul
From paul Thu Nov 30 12:28:24 1995
To: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu
Subject: Mind Twist
I wonder if WoTC is watching the Mind Twist discussion on mtg-strategy-l?
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 13:00:00 PST
> From: Scott Burke <sc...@SPARCOM.COM>
> Subject: Re: Mind Twist
>
> Hi Chuck:
>
> > It seems to me that whoever this 'Paul' person is (and
> >the fact that I have NO idea who this person is should prove that
> >I care more about my point than I do about any personal insult)
> >has probvably gotten beat by Mind Twist more often than any other
> >spell and, because he undoubtedly feels is he the best Magic
> >player around, any card good enough to beat him MUST be too
> >powerful.
> >
> > Yes, Mind Twist can win you the game at a certain time.
> >So can ANY of the cards on the limited list - that is why they
> >are on the limited list.
>
> This is a more reasonable counter-argument, and in the absence of further
> evidence, I would agree completely with you. However, the call by Paul is
> only the latest in a long string of top players who consistently and
> unanimously agree that Mind Twist has no place in this game. Let me make a
> couple of points:
>
> 1. If you think of cards in terms of their Counterspell equivalents, look
> at these four cards:
>
> Counterspell = 1 Counterspell
> Hymn to Tourach = 2 Counterspells
> Jester's Cap = 3 Counterspells
> Mind Twist = up to 7 Counterspells
>
> You could also think of them in terms of how many cards they "net" you, and
> throw in cards like Ancestral Recall, which nets 3, etc.
>
> Granted, that's a simplification, but the multiplicative factor is probably
> enhanced by the fact that these cards only take up a single slot in your
> deck. Is there any doubt that the Cap will hit the restricted list at some
> point? I have no doubt, but right now, I have Type 1, Type 1.5, and Type 2
> decks designed around the use of 4 Jester's Caps. One follows the abusive
> cards until they go away.
>
> 2. Let's think back to the 1994 U.S. Nationals, won by Bo Bell. Do you
> know what Bo's deck was focused on? 4 Mind Twists. He was one of only a
> handful of players to recognize the power of that card at that time. Soon
> after, it was restricted.
>
> What about the World Championship? In the semifinal match, Alexander
> Blumke used Mind Twist on Mark Justice in 3 separate duels, winning all 3
> of them. Here we have 2 of the best 4 players in the world tournament, and
> their entire match was decided by a mid-game Mind Twist in each case. What
> does that have to do with? Luck, not skill.
>
> The players that are against Mind Twist include nearly the entire Top 25 in
> the U.S.--I spoke to many of them at Origins. Mark Justice hates the card.
> Henry Stern, Mario Robaina, Adam Maysonet, Brian Weissman--all of us
> understand how abusive the card is.
>
> 3. My final point is based on Chuck's commentary. Chuck is right on when
> he says that it's all based on your perception of which card beats you.
> And many various catastrophes befall the average Magic player: they get
> beat by Control Magic, by Armageddon, by Time Walk, by Mind Twist... it's
> an endless litany of catastrophes, no one greater than the rest, because
> they all result in losses. In the final rounds of any large tournament, do
> you see Control Magics winning games? Sure, but rarely. Armageddons?
> Sure, but rarely. Mind Twist? Nearly every single time it comes out. I
> am not alone in the Type 1 ranks to say that the vast majority of my losses
> is due to that single card. Long, drawn-out, Type 1 finals matches often
> come down to who gets the Mind Twist through first.
>
> So... sure, it's our perception, and sure, it's because the card beats us.
> But when the top-ranked players in the U.S. and the World unanimously
> agree on it, it carries more weight. DESPITE the fact that WotC continues
> to ignore the problem. I believe that at some point they will ban it.
>
> Ah well, just another $0.02 to this constantly recurring discussion. :-)
>
>
> Scott.
>
>
> ...................................................................
> Scott Burke . Director, Prod. Dev. . Phone (541) 757-8416
> sc...@sparcom.com . Sparcom Corporation . Fax (541) 753-7821
From paul Thu Nov 30 14:20:44 1995
To: MTG-STR...@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: MTG-STRATEGY-L Digest - 29 Nov 1995 to 30 Nov 1995
Bcc: tgoo...@netcom.com, bri...@netcom.com, john...@xstor.com
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 19:02:43 -0500
> From: Dan Lewis <dle...@EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Mind twist. Don't ban it, hose it.
>
> Mind Twist is very powerful.
> Mind Twist is a game breaker.
> Mind Twist can be counterspelled.
>
> Ok, I know, you can't counterspell EVERYTHING. But the fact is that
> making a card that will hose card denial will just take one more strategy
> and through it out the window. I say stop printing it, thus making
> discard less viable in type II, and make another Psychic Purge type card
> but maybe in a different color (like white or green, seeing as discard is
> primarily black).
Yes, it can be counterspelled. That's part of the problem - if you're
going to make a Type I deck that's competitive you almost have to have
permission just because you have to deal with that one card. I made
a new deck last night and I put in Lifeforce just for that reason.
And when you're playing The Deck vs. The Deck, this is what happens.
Whoever draws Mind Twist first (middle game) plays it. Then it's
"whoever has more counterspells wins" time. Often I draw it but I
don't play it until I have more counters to back it up. It's quite
complex.
That's also where Strip Mines come in handy. I've seen a (Type I
sanctioned tournament winning) deck based on Power Sink and Amnesia.
If you try to cast something on your turn he'll power sink you for
a few. You have to pay it, leaving you all but tapped out. Then he
casts Amnesia on his turn, with a Counter to back it up.
But Amnesia isn't as powerful as Mind Twist because it's not as
Versatile. Mind Twist can be played first turn, and the regrown and
played again middle game (I've done it). Versatility is one of
the most important things to consider when you're deciding whether
or not to use a certain card.
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:05:33 PST
> From: Bruce Norbeck <bruce....@ETAK.COM>
> Subject: Re: Mind twist. Don't ban it, hose it.
>
> Fellow magi:
> I admit it -- I'm dense. While I can
> understand why being forced to discard all of your cards is, indeed,
> irritating, I'm failing to understand why Mind Twist is so awesomely
> powerful that all of the best players in the world want it banned. I
> will concede that, if all of these players think there's something
> really wrong with the card, then there must be -- I'm not going to
> argue that point. I'm just confused -- what is it about Mind Twist
> that makes it so abusable? My fellow duelists & I are somewhat mysti-
> fied; being relatively intelligent people, we can't see what the big
> deal is.
> Someone, please enlighten me!
Look at it this way. These people almost never lose. I've never
beaten my friend Brian and I've never seen him beaten in Type I
except by his friend Chris, who is similarly talented. If you won
95%+ of your games, you'd start to notice patterns in the games you
did lose. It doesn't matter how good you are, or how good your deck
is designed, if someone can get lucky with Mind Twist, you'll lose.
This would start to upset you. And you can't design your deck to
deal with it, you can't play a certain way. If the Mind Twist
player gets lucky, they win. This is no big deal in a local
tournament, but when the World Championship is won by a guy who
draws Mind Twist three games in a row, it becomes ridiculous.
Therefore, I'd say it's in a class with Channel and Time Vault,
and it should be banned.
Sure, luck does play a part. But good Magic players build extremely
reliable decks which play the same every time (it's the only way to
win truly consistently). So whatever their opening draw, they can
play a good game. If the Mind Twist player gets lucky, they win.
If they don't they lose. Decks like this shouldn't be taking out
world-champion class players.
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 18:20:33 -0600
> From: "Alex S. Kallend" <kal...@XTREME2.ACC.IIT.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Mind Twist
>
> amnesia: even more conterspells ???? (assuming yer opponent has library
> of leng
See above.
> very bad analogy. if mind twist gave options (say like mind warp) then
> yes, i might consider it countering something. It doesn't. I don't.
> I don't know how many times i've hit someone with a twist, only to have
> them lose crap cards. I'd have rather countered one specific spell than
> twisted the 4 that i did.
I'd say this is quite rare. And if they were holding "crap" cards, you
probably would have won anyway.
> so why is no one else using stunted growth. talk about abusive. not only
> nets you 3 cards, but makes your opponent spend another three draws to
> get them.
Same as Amnesia - it's not as versatile. Stunted Growth is also not
as powerful - I've played it. If you play it early in the game (first
3 rounds), right after a Timetwister or Wheel, or right after the
person just drew several cards, then they have several less useful
cards in their hand anyway, and don't mind waiting to get them. For
example, if I just played Timetwister and then you play Stunted Growth,
I'll probably have 3 land in my hand. Since I can only pay one a
round anyway I'm not going to need them, so I'll just put them on
top of my library. It's onther great reason to hold land in your
hand until you need it.
Once I stunded growthed someone and they said "un-stunted growth" and
showed me Ancestral Recall. Look at the casting costs on these two
cards and compare their power.
> I think mind twist is the sort of card that deserves to STAY in magic. If
> you want a game without luck involved, go play chess or checkers. playing
> with cards indicates luck will be a factor. DEAL. there are other cards
> that when gotten early mean a quick win. should be ban library of
> alexandria? I've seen more early devastation with that than with the
> twist.
Yes, we also believe Library of Alexandria should be banned for the
same reason. Around here, the card's known as "I win." Everyone
plays with at least two Strip Mines just for the Library. Starting
last night, I'm now playing with Consecrate Land to counter the
Strip Mines. It's an overly powerful card.
> A mid-game twist is only devastating to those playing permission. It hardly
> affects land destruction, weenies, djinns... play a different deck type.
Those deck types are fun, and we've tried them. But you're not going to
achieve a 95% win ratio against seasoned players with these decks because
they're too unpredictable. And they have weaknesses against certain
popular deck types.
> top ranked because you have the time, money, and inclination to go to
> lots of sanctioned tournaments. Are you really discrediting the rest of
> us, who play at store tournaments, and can't afford to travel to regional
> magic tournaments.
I don't know about "ranking" decause the DC sucks and doesn't sanction
enough tournaments and doesn't publish rankings often enough. But I
know who's good and who's just lucky.
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 17:33:35 +1000
> From: Stuart Dimock <sdi...@ISISPH.COM>
> Subject: Re: Mind twist. Don't ban it, hose it.
>
> And the people that live by "counter and out-draw" are doing most of the
> whining. They happen to be good at that. Look what happened to Channel
> and Balance. Same whiners, similar results. End product: things like THE
> DECK and the Cookbook dominating regional play. This game turns on
> *fashion* and right now permission is in vogue. This worm may yet turn
> again...
Look. No one seems to be noticing this, but we're not only whining
because we lose to Mind Twist too much, we're whining because we WIN
WITH IT TOO MUCH! It's just not fun any more. You people don't
realize that The Deck is based around Mind Twist. The Deck has defense
to wait until middle game. Then, when you have the Twist and counters
to back it up, Twist them. Keep them defenseless with the Scepter and
then bludgeon them to death with a Serra. It works. It's too good.
Mind Twist (and Library of Alexandria) should be banned so we can start
playing some other decks. We've tried, but we always lose, and it's no
fun trying new decks when you always lose.
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 19:07:46 MST
> From: Charles Raymond Mousseau <crmo...@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
> Subject: More Twisted Minds...
>
> "Man, I can't believe they haven't limited Hurkyl's
> Recall yet - it's *STUPIDLY* huge!"
Well, if everyone in your area is playing all artifact decks and
Black Vise, then yes, Hurkyl's Recall is a good card. Personally
I wouldn't rely on it because discard decks and weenie decks rely
on very few artifacts, and I see those decks sometimes.
But I'm pretty sure that all of the people I play will be using
CARDS, so I think Mind Twist should be banned.
-Paul
Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo,
flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a
beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful
painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.
- Deep Thoughts (by Jack Handey)
David Choi
> I have been leading an argument for months on the mtg-strategy-l mailing list
> about why I thought Mind Twist should be banned. I thought I'd post a
collection
> of the emails I wrote because it seems like most people have no idea why
it was
> banned. Personally, it rejuvinates my faith in the DC and the Magic tourney
> system, and I am glad to see it go.
>
> For reference in these emails, Brian Weissman (mentioned repeatedly) is the
> local shark who wins most of the Type I tournaments around here. His deck,
> "The Deck" is a defense fortress permission deck built around Mind Twist.
*much deleted*
I have now read this entire post which attempts to explain why
Mind Twist was banned (presuming it was banned because of this
discussion).
Though I will concede to the "experts" who consistently play
type I that Mind Twist might be the single most frequent cause
of their losses I would like to point a couple things out:
1) Near the end of the post, someone mentions that Mind Twist
does not affect many other deck strategies (e.g. Weenie,
land destruction, Juzum, etc.)
To this the response was, "Well, maybe, but those aren't
winning decks."
So what you are really talking about is that Mind Twist
hoses the current deck favored by type I players.
2) What is that deck favored by type I players? Basically,
permission. (Is there any wonder why Black Vise was also
restricted at the same time?)
3) Has anyone considered, that maybe, it's not Mind Twist which
is broken, but the type I environment?
Type I is so full of broken cards, that there is little
choice in the matter of selecting cards. If you don't play
with the same set of spoilers, you can't really compete
consistently.
This being the case; that is, that most of your cards are
predetermined, then, it would follow, that certain cards or
strategies will hose this deck (Magic, being the way that it
is).
Since the dominant set of spoilers happens to predetermine
a permission type deck, it makes some sense that cards like
Mind Twist and Black Vise might hose it.
4) What this ruling does is to concede to the dominant deck
idea. Effectively, it says, "Oh, yes, we must reassert the
current dominant deck and get rid of cards that challenge
it's dominance."
5) What is the effect if this ruling? Permission gets even
stronger. Hurrah.
David Choi
boils down to:
A rather powerful and obnoxious card, Mind Twist, is being
unfairly blamed for the problems of a broken environment
created by much more powerful and obnoxious cards.
Mind Twist did not create the problems of type I. It happens
to be the card that hoses the dominant strategy.
Ban Moxes, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Timewalk and Recall,
and restrict Mana Drain while you're at it, and I betcha that
people will start forgetting about Mind Twist and some other
card will be the bane of type I.
Why? Because the dominant deck will change and some other card
will hose it.
Robert S. Hahn
[A good deal of well thought out and interesting arguments deleted]
I'm ready to be convinced about the power of Mind Twist and the Library of
Alexandria.
However, what I can't figure out is this. Since I posted my Schools of
Magic v.4.0 which lamented the loss of Mind Twist as it was the card around
which the Weissman deck was built, Brian Weissman wrote me and said that it
wasn't as crucial. Amnesia will do the job fine (and it's not restricted).
As for the Library of Alexandria, as wonderful as the card is, it is suited
to a slower defensive style (again, a la Weissman) which doesn't mind
holding 6-7 cards in hand all the time.
So I'm failing to see the correspondence in the arguments here. On the one
hand, Paul's collected arguments suggest that the MindTwist and Library of
Alexandria are the game winner cards. On the other hand, the creator of
the ultimate Mind Twist/Library of Alexandria strategy says they can be
easily replaced.
What's going on here? Someone please explain this dichotomy. I still live
under the impression that the Mind Twist is a game winner only in a deck
which is built to support it (i.e., Disrupting Sceptres), and that for this
reason, its banning was improper.
Cheers,
-rsh
Matthew Mason
It seems obvious to me that the root of this is the question "what is
the process by which cards get banned or restricted?". For instance,
if it were merely due to player complaints, then your answer would be
there - the recent banning would be a case of the squeaky wheel
getting the grease. But that's just an example.
I think most players such as myself have no idea how D.C. goes about
deciding which cards are restricted or banned. If someone could
enlighten us, I'm sure it would shed a lot of light on this whole Mind
Twist mess.
I see two main possibilities. Either the banning of Mind Twist was
just a misguided attempt to fix something that wasn't broken, or it is
evidence of a flaw in the way that D.C. bans cards.
Matt
Charles T. Schwope
>Also sprach Paul Pantera (pa...@Eng.Sun.COM):
>[A good deal of well thought out and interesting arguments deleted]
>I'm ready to be convinced about the power of Mind Twist and the Library of
>Alexandria.
>However, what I can't figure out is this. Since I posted my Schools of
>Magic v.4.0 which lamented the loss of Mind Twist as it was the card around
>which the Weissman deck was built, Brian Weissman wrote me and said that it
>wasn't as crucial. Amnesia will do the job fine (and it's not restricted).
>As for the Library of Alexandria, as wonderful as the card is, it is suited
>to a slower defensive style (again, a la Weissman) which doesn't mind
>holding 6-7 cards in hand all the time.
>So I'm failing to see the correspondence in the arguments here. On the one
>hand, Paul's collected arguments suggest that the MindTwist and Library of
>Alexandria are the game winner cards. On the other hand, the creator of
>the ultimate Mind Twist/Library of Alexandria strategy says they can be
>easily replaced.
Oh... this is rich... the most important (in many peoples eyes) person
to want the Twist restricted says it can easily be replaced by an
unrestricted card. And that the other "I win" card (according to
certain people) is not that importnat?
>What's going on here? Someone please explain this dichotomy. I still live
>under the impression that the Mind Twist is a game winner only in a deck
>which is built to support it (i.e., Disrupting Sceptres), and that for this
>reason, its banning was improper.
I agree.
However, I do have a question. You (meaning Robert) seem to be the
most interested in testing the various Type I decks against each other
(as opposed to the Weissman ppl, who have basicly said "This is the
best deck around... screw ya'll"): Have you found the Weissman deck
as good as reported? Is it that dominant? Just as a comparison, have
you tried it against Chip Hogan's deck? (Though the banning of the
Orb hrt that a _lot_. Btw, mail me if you don't know about Chip's
deck, while I haven't looked through the whole thing, I could
probably come up with a close estimate.)
-CT
--
Charles T. Schwope | Every man is a spark in the darkness. By the
aka CT | time he is noticed, he is gone forever, a
sch...@infrared.csc.ti.com | retinal afterimage that fades, and is obscured
c-sc...@ti.com | by newer, brighter lights.
do...@netcom.com
: >I'm ready to be convinced about the power of Mind Twist and the Library of
: >Alexandria.
: >However, what I can't figure out is this. Since I posted my Schools of
: >Magic v.4.0 which lamented the loss of Mind Twist as it was the card around
: >which the Weissman deck was built, Brian Weissman wrote me and said that it
: >wasn't as crucial. Amnesia will do the job fine (and it's not restricted).
: >As for the Library of Alexandria, as wonderful as the card is, it is suited
: >to a slower defensive style (again, a la Weissman) which doesn't mind
: >holding 6-7 cards in hand all the time.
: >So I'm failing to see the correspondence in the arguments here. On the one
: >hand, Paul's collected arguments suggest that the MindTwist and Library of
: >Alexandria are the game winner cards. On the other hand, the creator of
: >the ultimate Mind Twist/Library of Alexandria strategy says they can be
: >easily replaced.
: Oh... this is rich... the most important (in many peoples eyes) person
: to want the Twist restricted says it can easily be replaced by an
: unrestricted card. And that the other "I win" card (according to
: certain people) is not that importnat?
Well, I don't know if it can be 'easily' replaced, but Amnesia is almost
as powerful as Mind Twist, particularly in mid- to late-game as people
have typically played down all their land. Since decks will have one less
black spell to support, they may be able to slightly tweak their mana
ratio towards blue.
: >What's going on here? Someone please explain this dichotomy. I still live
: >under the impression that the Mind Twist is a game winner only in a deck
: >which is built to support it (i.e., Disrupting Sceptres), and that for this
: >reason, its banning was improper.
It is also arguable that Mind Twist is a card that any deck can be made
better with for a very cheap cost. Plus, even if a lock isn't in place,
Mind Twist is typically THE card that is the beginning to a short end of
most decks.
: However, I do have a question. You (meaning Robert) seem to be the
: most interested in testing the various Type I decks against each other
: (as opposed to the Weissman ppl, who have basicly said "This is the
: best deck around... screw ya'll"): Have you found the Weissman deck
: as good as reported? Is it that dominant? Just as a comparison, have
: you tried it against Chip Hogan's deck? (Though the banning of the
: Orb hrt that a _lot_. Btw, mail me if you don't know about Chip's
: deck, while I haven't looked through the whole thing, I could
: probably come up with a close estimate.)
I've never personally seen Chip's deck, but I found out that he got
_SMOKED_ at a major Type I tourney down in North Carolina for a Beta Set.
I got that analysis first-hand from the player who beat him and he wasn't
overly impressed (btw, he played a permission/control type deck against
Chip's Winter Orb/Ernham thing).
From my vantage in the SF Bay Area, it has been shown time and time again
that Weissman control decks ARE the dominant deck in tourney settings. A
guy from Texas was running some comparisons for a while and his results
showed that the Weissman deck was as good as reported, even taking the
vaunted Kim deck to school. It doesn't take independent
testing to necessarily determine what is the 'best' deck. Usually
tournament results are good enough, since that is the best arena for
comparision. The Deck has won nearly every major tourney here for over a
year. That's pretty robust testing I'd say.
There has also been some discussion of a deck that is quite successful
against the Weissman deck, one containing many protection from White
creatures (Ebon Hand, Knight of Stromgald), and a good dose of permission
and card denial (Mana Drain, Hypnotic Spectres), coupled with standard
defensive measures (StoP, Disenchant). This could work well, but with
such tiny creatures, this deck would seem vulnerable to Djinn decks or
blaster decks with Pyroclasm/Earthquake.
--
Check out my Magic Tournament Calendar at
http://www.music.uiowa.edu/~jezebel/dolor.html
Paul Pantera
>Also sprach Paul Pantera (pa...@Eng.Sun.COM):
>
>
>Alexandria.
>
>However, what I can't figure out is this. Since I posted my Schools of
>Magic v.4.0 which lamented the loss of Mind Twist as it was the card around
>which the Weissman deck was built, Brian Weissman wrote me and said that it
>wasn't as crucial. Amnesia will do the job fine (and it's not restricted).
>As for the Library of Alexandria, as wonderful as the card is, it is suited
>to a slower defensive style (again, a la Weissman) which doesn't mind
>holding 6-7 cards in hand all the time.
>
>So I'm failing to see the correspondence in the arguments here. On the one
>hand, Paul's collected arguments suggest that the MindTwist and Library of
>Alexandria are the game winner cards. On the other hand, the creator of
>the ultimate Mind Twist/Library of Alexandria strategy says they can be
>easily replaced.
>
>under the impression that the Mind Twist is a game winner only in a deck
>which is built to support it (i.e., Disrupting Sceptres), and that for this
>reason, its banning was improper.
Amnesia is the best replacement for Mind Twist in The Deck, that's
true. If you're willing to use Merchant Scroll instead of Demonic
Tutor, then you can lose a whole color. The problem is the way in
which the Scepter and Mind Twist interast - Brian will tell you this
too.
When you're under the scepter, you only get to play a few more spells.
If you have 3 cards in your hand, then you get three more spells until
you can get rid of the Scepter. This is because the Scepter each turn
is cancelling out your draw.
Let's say I have three cards in my hand - 2 counterspells and an
Island, and my opponent has the Scepter. I draw a Swords. My
opponent, on his turn, uses the scepter. I discard the Island. I draw
another Island. My opponent uses the scepter again, I discard the
Island.
This is the way it goes. If my opponent casts a creature and I Swords
it, then I've only got two slots in my hand to fill, and no matter how
many turns I get, this isn't going to change (unless I draw a spoiler
like Ancestral of Braingeyser). This is what it's like to play The
Deck - you just keep using the Scepter until you draw the Mind Twist.
Then you Mind Twist them for all of thier cards and voila - no slots
left to hold cards, you're defenseless! This especially hurts
Permission decks because you can't ever use a counterspell, but it will
kill almost any deck.
Now consider Amnesia. If you have land in your hand when you get
Amnesia'd, you still have slots left, and the The Deck player still has
some work to do before he can safely kill you.
-Paul
mark balabon
: In article <4csjpu$c...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, pa...@Eng.Sun.COM wrote:
: > I have been leading an argument for months on the mtg-strategy-l mailing list
: > about why I thought Mind Twist should be banned. I thought I'd post a
: collection
: > of the emails I wrote because it seems like most people have no idea why
: it was
: > banned. Personally, it rejuvinates my faith in the DC and the Magic tourney
: > system, and I am glad to see it go.
: >
: > For reference in these emails, Brian Weissman (mentioned repeatedly) is the
: > local shark who wins most of the Type I tournaments around here. His deck,
: > "The Deck" is a defense fortress permission deck built around Mind Twist.
: *much deleted*
: I have now read this entire post which attempts to explain why
: Mind Twist was banned (presuming it was banned because of this
: discussion).
: Though I will concede to the "experts" who consistently play
: type I that Mind Twist might be the single most frequent cause
: of their losses I would like to point a couple things out:
: 1) Near the end of the post, someone mentions that Mind Twist
: does not affect many other deck strategies (e.g. Weenie,
: land destruction, Juzum, etc.)
: To this the response was, "Well, maybe, but those aren't
: winning decks."
: So what you are really talking about is that Mind Twist
: hoses the current deck favored by type I players.
Not even. MT hoses the current deck favored by *some* players in *one* part
of the country (all hail the LA scene and bow to the MtG God Brian Weissman -
we're not worthy, we're not worhty). I am tired of people talking about how
because one deck type built by one player is winning all of the tournaments.
People in this area play that deck, but it just doesn't win. MT does not win
games without the cards to support it (scepters). The one thing that banning
MT does is make it a *lot* easier to play slow blue decks.
: 2) What is that deck favored by type I players? Basically,
: permission. (Is there any wonder why Black Vise was also
: restricted at the same time?)
See above.
: 3) Has anyone considered, that maybe, it's not Mind Twist which
: is broken, but the type I environment?
: Type I is so full of broken cards, that there is little
: choice in the matter of selecting cards. If you don't play
: with the same set of spoilers, you can't really compete
: consistently.
: This being the case; that is, that most of your cards are
: predetermined, then, it would follow, that certain cards or
: strategies will hose this deck (Magic, being the way that it
: is).
: Since the dominant set of spoilers happens to predetermine
: a permission type deck, it makes some sense that cards like
: Mind Twist and Black Vise might hose it.
: 4) What this ruling does is to concede to the dominant deck
: idea. Effectively, it says, "Oh, yes, we must reassert the
: current dominant deck and get rid of cards that challenge
: it's dominance."
: 5) What is the effect if this ruling? Permission gets even
: stronger. Hurrah.
EXACTLY.
: Sam
: sc...@ccat.sas.upenn.edu
Craig Sivils
>In summary of my earlier points, I think my argument eventually
>boils down to:
>A rather powerful and obnoxious card, Mind Twist, is being
>unfairly blamed for the problems of a broken environment
>created by much more powerful and obnoxious cards.
It was the most powerful and most obnoxious card of the lot by far.
>Mind Twist did not create the problems of type I. It happens
>to be the card that hoses the dominant strategy.
Actually since almost all strategies include it I don't see how this
statement is anything except self-defeating.
>Ban Moxes, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Timewalk and Recall,
>and restrict Mana Drain while you're at it, and I betcha that
>people will start forgetting about Mind Twist and some other
>card will be the bane of type I.
None of these are in the league of mind twist, if you had listed
library of alexandria I might have to agree somewhat although its
still not in the league of mind twist. None of the above provide the
90+ chance of victory that mind twist does.
Craig
Dennis F. Hefferman
|What's going on here? Someone please explain this dichotomy. I still live
|under the impression that the Mind Twist is a game winner only in a deck
|which is built to support it (i.e., Disrupting Sceptres), and that for this
|reason, its banning was improper.
It had to go because it was a no-brainer. "Uhm, one of my cards for as
many as you have in your hand? Oh, gee, lemee think...." Of course, it also
had to go because the entire idea of restriction is brain-dead and every
restricted card we can get on the banned list is a good thing.
But it's certainly not an auto-death card, Weismann decks
nowithstanding (and yes, I've played against them and slapped them around), and
neither is the Library of Alexandria, which is still legal in my group.
--
Dennis Francis Heffernan IRC: Macavity heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu
Montclair State University #include <disclaim.h> Computer Science/Philosophy
"You bitch about the present and blame it on the past/I'd like to find your
inner child and kick its little ass!" -- Don Henley/Glenn Fry, "Get Over It"
Paul Pantera
is providing some insight to people as to why Mind Twist was finally
banned. I thought I'd take some time to collect all of the articles I
posted about Mind Twist - what I posted before were just a select few.
This article also contains some background info which I sometimes send
people as an intro to the Strategy list, including a listing of Brian
Weisman's "The Deck". Happy reading!
From paul Fri Aug 18 16:26:08 1995
To: MTG-STR...@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
I am now going to tell you the secret of success in Type I. Remember
where you heard this. The secret to winning in Type I is CARD
DOMINATION. The player who gets to draw, keep, and use the most cards
wins. I didn't make this up - it came from Brian Weissman, the best
player in my area. More about him later.
To illustrate this, here's a statement: whichever player gets the
Library of Alexandria or Mind Twist on the draw, wins. When I first
heard Brian say this I said "yeah, right" then I started noting the
draws in type I tournaments, and he was right 10 out of 10. It's
amazing the power of those two cards. I can't believe they didn't
remove Mind Twist, but it's less important without Moxes and Lotus.
Based on this concept, here is the tournament deck which Brian built.
Did anyone read Zak Dolan's article in the last Duelist? He describes
a deck that's so defensive that the only source of damage is two
Serras. This is it.
It has won pretty much every tournament in this area in the last six
months. Around here, it's known as "The Deck." No one has been able
to make a deck which consistently beats it and can still hold its own.
4 Mana Drain
3 Counterspell
1 Braingeyser
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Recall
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant
2 Serra Angel
2 Moat
3 Disrupting Scepter
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Chaos Orb
1 Sol Ring
5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Strip Mine
3 City of Brass
4 Tundra
2 Plains
4 Islands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Plateau
Sideboard:
3 Blood Moon
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Dust to Dust
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Moat
2 CoP: Red
1 Counterspell
1 Control Magic
1 Balance
Some people play different variations. I think Brian is playing 28
land (plus Sol Ring) right now. This deck is 34/26. You do this
because you almost never get a bad draw. I can't believe the
people on this list saying "I don't understand how I got a bad
draw - I had all 20 land in my deck!"
It's much easier to get a good draw with a Permission deck anyway.
That's the problem playing direct damage or Land Destruction -
sometimes you don't draw any of the right cards, and you lose. That's
why permission is so much better - as long as you get two blue, you're
set for a while.
You'll notice first off that this is a permission deck. Nine
counterspells in all (some people replace a counterspell with
Deflection.) The main cards in the deck are the Disrupting Scepters
and the Moats.
I don't know where to start. This is a lock deck - it wins by putting
your opponent in a position where they're helpless. At the end of the
game, you've got a handful of counterspells and a Serra Angel, your
opponent has no creatures and no cards, and he's taking 4 points a
round. Even if he draws something good, you just counter it.
The point of the deck is to get your opponent with no cards. DON'T
CAST A SERRA UNLESS YOUR OPPONENT HAS NO CARDS AND YOU HAVE A
COUNTERSPELL TO BACK IT UP. This is NOT a fast deck.
The secret to winning in Magic, and the thing that separates good Magic
players from the not-so-good is:
1) Knowing which spells to counter
2) Knowing what to disenchant and when
3) Knowing which creatures to Swords
4) Knowing where to aim the Orb
5) Knowing what to Tutor for
6) Knowing what to Regrowth/Recall
You'll notice that this deck is chock-full of these cards, which makes
it hard to play. If you give a beginner this deck, they'll lose. The
guy who designed it, Brian, can beat just about anyone, any time, even
if they're playing the same deck. Here are a few pointers:
1) Don't counter creatures, especially non-flying ones. Let the
Swords and Moats take care of them.
2) Counter card drawing and discarding effects like
Hymn to Tourach and Mind Twist.
3) Don't counter artifacts inless you absolutely have to. I'd counter
a Scepter if I didn't have a disenchant because it is the enemy of
permission decks.
4) Don't disenchant moxes (unless you have Blood Moon out). Save your
disenchants for important stuff.
5) Always counter Ancestral Recall, even if it's your last counterspell
and you'll be tapped out.
6) Your opponent will try to bait you with spoilers. For example, he
may play Time Walk hoping you'll counter it, so he can cast
something really important. Don't be fooled.
7) If you draw good cards like Time Walk or Chaos Orb, don't cast them
right away. Save them to bait your opponent later.
8) Save Strip Mines to strip islands to keep your opponent from
countering. Strip mines are great because they can't be
countered. ALWAYS use it to get rid of Library of Alexandria.
You'll want to get rid of Mazes too. Remember to use them
before you Timetwister, because then you can get them back.
9) Don't play too much land - hold it in your hand. It will help
alleviate the effects of Mind Twist or Disrupting Scepter.
Or Balance.
10) DON'T TAP OUT! It sounds corny to leave two islands untapped so
your opponent will think you have a counterspell. IT WORKS! If
you want to cast a Tome or a Scepter, wait until you counter
something with Mana Drain, and use that extra mana to cast it.
You'll still have plenty of untapped lands for countering (and
bluffing).
11) If you're using the Library early in the game, you may have to
discard. If you have a Serra, discard it. You won't need it
until later.
12) Don't counter life-gaining effects. This is a lock deck - even
if you're opponent has 100 life it doesn't matter - he's going
to take 4 a round and there's nothing he can do.
13) If you have the Library, don't lose the use of it! It's the
"I Win" card. Don't play stupid cards to get less than 7.
Draw a card during your opponent's upkeep. This way, even
if you have to counter 2 spells during your opponent's turn,
your next draw will bring you back up to 7.
14) Don't just leave 2 blue untapped. Your opponent could have a
Strip Mine and then you're helpless. Leave as much blue
untapped as possible. Discard cards instead of playing them
if you have to.
A lot of these tips can be used with any deck, and others are more
specific to The Deck. But remember, you're purpose at the beginning
of the game is to rid your opponent of cards. Don't worry about
anything else. Then, when he has no cards, get the Serra out. It
works every time.
The other important skill is knowing how to sideboard. You don't
sideboard against a certain color, you sideboard against certain
kinds of decks.
Land Destruction - You rarely see good land destruction decks in type
I any more because it's hard with moxes and stuff. The best
way to beat land destruction is to sideboard extra land. He
will run out of cards, and he'll be helpless.
Creatureless - You rarely see true creatureless decks in Type I
because they're so easy to sideboard against. Pull out the
Moats and Swords, and replace with 6 useful cards!
Direct Damage - Put in the CoP: Red. If you get the Tutor, get the
Ivory Tower (also called the Ivory Plower). Another good
Sideboard card against Direct Damage is Zuran Orb.
No blue- Take out the REB and at least one Scepter. The Scepters
work best against permission decks. They're less effective
against Weenie and Direct Damage decks.
R/G Weenie - Take out at least one disenchant (these decks rarely
use any good artifacts or enchantments). Put in the extra
moat, and Balance.
White Weenie - Extra Moat. Ouch. and Balance.
Big Creature (Juzam, Juggernaut) - Control Magic
Juzam - I love watching the Juzam player's face when I put down a
Moat. It's great watching someone's creature kill them.
Permission - Put in the extra Tome against any slow deck, including
permission decks. This will give you card advantage.
Discard - There are lots of card you can take out (usually Moat, Ivory
Tower, Scepter, etc.) Put in the Tome and the counterpell.
Balance also works well against these decks.
Of course decks with no basic land are victims. Sideboard in the Blood
Moons instead of the Regrowth, Mind Twist, and Tutor (or something else
that's less useful against that particular deck). Use the Strip Mines
to get rid of any Bsic Land they do have before the Blood Moon comes
out. Use the Dust to Dust and Disenchants to get rid of on-color
moxes.
OK now that I've handed you a viable Type I deck, I need your help to
try and beat it. The best I have done so far is basically the same
deck, but I've taken out the Blood Moon sideboard effect and replaced
it with the anti-Deck sideboard:
Sideboard out:
2 Moats
4 Swords
1 Ivory Tower
Sideboard in:
2 Island of Wak-Wak
1 Maze of Ith
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Jayemdae Tome
I take out the Ivory Tower because all it does is give lives. You
don't need lives against this deck - you need cards. If you're
playing against the deck, as soon as you take damage, you're dead
meat. You're in a lock.
Tormod's Crypt works well against the deck because it effectively
counter's the Time Walk/Regrowth/Recall combo. Plus, if you can
remove both Serras from the game then you've probably won. So
what I'm doing here is removing his ability to do damage. But
if I'm not careful he'll run me out of cards. I'm thinking about
adding a cane (I already have the Timetwister, but that's not too
good because it puts him back up to 7 cards).
Other cards that work well against The Deck:
Jester's Cap - remove 2 Serras and they have no way to do damage. Might
also want to remove Braingeyser to keep him from running
you out of cards.
Black Knight
Order of the Ebon Hand - Protection from White (can't be Swordsed)
Mountain Yeti
Homarid Warrior - Can't be Swordsed (if you're careful)
Scavenger Folk - It can destroy artifacts and it can do a point of
damage
Eternal Flame - This is my new favorite card. Since this is a slow
deck, I think you could make a deck where you could
get out 10-15 mountains (maybe with Blood Moon) and
use Eternal Flame to do a bunch of damage, leaving
lots of mountains untapped for REB/Pyroblast.
Abyss/Preacher/Seasinger - All of these need to be dealt with
before he can cast a Serra, but it's
usually not a problem because the Deck
can win a waiting game.
Chains of Mephistophles - Shut down the card drawing ability of the
deck.
Black Vise - Terrible against permission decks like this. It's
always the first thing to get Disenchanted
Monsoon - Expensive but good. It makes him think twice about
sideboarding his disenchants for Dust to Dust. Only
problem is, how are you going to play Type I without
Blue? You'd have to use all IA multilands I guess
(don't count as Islands).
Amnesia - I once got beaten by a deck exactly like this except
that it had Sedge Trolls instead of Moats and Amnesia/
Mana Short combo instead of Scepters. You cast
something and leave 2 blue untapped. During your
discard phase, he Mana Shorts you. Now you're
tapped out and he casts Amnesia. Game over.
Psychic Purge - You can choose to discard the Psychic Purge when
he uses the Scepter on you - ouch for him. You
don't see it very often though because it's such
a weak card on its own. It's good combined with
Library of Leng too, but you'll never see that
in Type I.
All of the creatures have the problem that they don't fly, and
are therefore shut down by Moat.
Let me know if you think of any other good cards to help me beat The
Deck, or if you have a good deck concept which you think can win.
In the future I'll talk about deck building strategy, because most of
what I've talked about here is playing strategy.
Also, if I go to a tournament, I like to jot down a few notes about
some of the winning decks, and post a "tournament report." These
were very popular. It'd be good if other people started doing this
as well.
-Paul
From paul Tue Nov 21 16:49:42 1995
To: MTG-STR...@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 17:08:54 +1000
> From: Stuart Dimock <sdi...@ISISPH.COM>
> Subject: Re: Spoilers over all?
>
> This is why I like a really finely tuned discard deck against type I
> opponents. It is hard to use an Ancestral Recall after it gets pulled by a
> Mind Twist and removed from the game by a Tormod's Crypt! I've seen it
> happen and I have never seen a big money player pray so hard for the Ring
> of Ma'Ruff in all of my life! : ) I have beaten my share of type I decks
> with a card stripper as well.
Stuart's right - the easiest way to beat a Type I "Mox Deck" (I hate that
term) with cheap cards is with a discard deck and luck. Just watch your
back as you're leaving.
> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 10:25:48 EDT
> From: Jeff Boes <J.B...@ZDS.COM>
> Subject: Discard Decks considered harmful? (to future of MtG)
>
>
> Earth to WotC? Come in, WotC? If this is the future of Type II play, then
> I'm not having any, thanks. I thought the core of MtG's design was to
> encourage multi-color, versatile deck design, always changing in response
> to new cards and strategies. The ultimate rock-paper-scissors, everyone
> has said. Type I is dead, since all The Decks look The Same... 40-card
> "original" deck rules are dead, since no one likes to face a Lightning Bolt
> every turn.
Brian Weisman agrees with you. He thinks that Mind Twist should be
banned and Hymn to Tourach should be restricted. You should have seen
him yelling at Tom Wylie after the tournament (the most convenient
WoC representative in the vicinity). The problem is that you never
get a chance. If the discard deck gets lucky you never get a chance
to play your deck at all, and it's simple to make and simple to play.
It's almost like getting Channel-Fireball'ed.
The counter to that argument is that, against Brian's decks, you never
have a chance either, it just takes a bit longer. I think Mana Drain
should be restricted, but it's not as obviously abusive as Channel or
Ancestral Recall or Time Walk.
Anyway, I had no problem against discard decks with my Red/Green hoser
deck because I sideboarded out the Primal Orders and put in four
Lifeforce. Once I got one out it was curtains because he had no way to
get rid of it. But it's hard to make a reliable viable Type I deck with
heavy green.
From paul Wed Nov 22 16:40:04 1995
To: MTG-STR...@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> if you restrict or ban every card that has power, we might as well play
> go fish. A good discard deck doesn't rely on luck to beat you, and
> although a big mind twist early in the game is detrimental, it usually
> costs the twister a number of cards also. land destruction is easy to
> play also.. do you bad it? white weenie is easy to play, lets ban white.
Whatever. But the point is that, if the discard player gets lucky, you
never have a chance. You can build your deck to deal with land destruction,
but there's little you can do against discard. Why do you think Brian's
deck has 29 mana sources and no spells with >1 colored mana cost?
> a good draw and energy flux will cripple a lot of mox players. All of a
> sudden you've lost 5 mana source (6 if you include sol ring) from your
> deck, and have to start worrying about things like using your jayemdae's
> and paying for them.
I've tried it - it doesn't work. If you don't play with artifacts in
Type I then you are going to lose to someone's fifty cent discard deck,
or a buck fifty white weenie. You can't sacrifice speed just to hose
someone deck. I'll say it again - if the cards weren't that good, then
they wouldn't cost so much (the exception is Juzam Djinn). On the
other hand, the people with Moxes win all the tournaments because the
best players have all the moxes. What I do is make proxies. A few
weeks ago I made 350 proxies of 5 Moxes, Lotus, blue power, Moat, Mana
Drain, etc. I've been distributing them. Proxies are easy to make if
you're trying to make a proxy and not a counterfeit card. I just color
photocopy the cards, just out the picture, and stick it on a real
card.
> psychic purge is a good sideboard card against the deck. You can usually
> hit it for 10-15 damage before it starts locking you out. The threat of
> psychic purges weaken the lock a lot.
If I'm playing The Deck I don't worry about Psychic Purge unles I have <5
life. If your deck is set up like that, then it's a good sideboard card.
I'd probably just Tutor for the Ivory Tower, but you can try if you want.
> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 12:00:30 -0500
> From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eac...@SPECTRE.MITRE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: Discard Decks considered harmful? (to future of MtG)
>
> Hymns are very powerful in type I, but not as great in type II.
Robert - I disagree completely. If you can Hymn of the first turn
(Dark Ritual) and the second turn you've made your opponent discard
four of his initial 7 cards. Depending on who went first he hasn't
had a chance to play even the cheapest spells yet. Even worse, he's
made you discard land, so you can't cast the things left in your
hand, and they are sitting prey. Later in the game you can hold
less important cards in you hand to decrease the chance of discarding
good stuff, but early in the game you are a sittling duck.
I do agree that Racks aren't the way to go though.
Everyone have a great Thanksgiving.
Top Umpteen Resons why Derelor is Better than Juzam Djinn
18. Spirit Link
17. Minion of Leshrac, White Knight, Whirling Dervish, Order of Leitbur,
Order of the White Shield, Wall of Light, etc.
16. City in a Bottle
15. King Suleiman
14. Wall of Shadows
13. Uncle Istvan
12. Greater Realm of Preservation
11. Circle of Protection: Black
10. Moat
9. Demonic Torment
8. Maze of Ith
7. Imprison
6. Ice Floe
5. Island Sanctuary
4. Serra Bestiary
3. Gaseous Form
2. Stasis
1. Icy Manipulator
-Paul
From paul Thu Nov 30 14:20:44 1995
To: MTG-STR...@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 19:02:43 -0500
See above.
CARDS, so I think Mind Twist should be banned.
> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:08:00 -0600
> From: Davide Manzella <romelfs!om...@IHIADM.ATT.COM>
> Subject: AARRGGHH!
>
> Hey, WAKE UP!
> Hadn't you guessed already? This game *IS* centered on luck, no matter
> how good you are at minimizing the impact of it in your decks.
Not really. I covered this above.
> Also, assuming that you are ranking people by their tournament status,
> I would say that the majority of those same people keep winning with
> the help of Black Lotus, Moxes and the remaining restricted Power cards...
> Would they start bitching about banning the Lotus? Or the Twister?
> Of course not! It gives them the Elite status...
> Sure, go ahead... Keep banning the $1 range nasty cards (too many around),
> and protect those $100 range Power cards (only the Best deserve them)!
Well, we're not winning games with Black Lotus and Moxes, we're winning
them with Library of Alexandria and Mind Twist.
> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:09:29 -0400
> From: Moz <s00...@GROG.RIC.EDU>
> Subject: Re: MTG-STRATEGY-L Digest - 28 Nov 1995 to 29 Nov 1995
>
> Is the cap not something you generally counter or is it really dependant
> on where the serras are or in the times that youve been capped and didnt
> counter was it due to lack of counters?
If both Serras are still in my Library I'd counter it (if I could). It
really depends on what's in your graveyard and your hand. When I play
the cap sometimes I take out 3 Disenchants. That hurts.
Craig Sivils
>There has also been some discussion of a deck that is quite successful
>against the Weissman deck, one containing many protection from White
>creatures (Ebon Hand, Knight of Stromgald), and a good dose of permission
>and card denial (Mana Drain, Hypnotic Spectres), coupled with standard
>defensive measures (StoP, Disenchant). This could work well, but with
>such tiny creatures, this deck would seem vulnerable to Djinn decks or
>blaster decks with Pyroclasm/Earthquake.
I've considered that, but the problem is that there is now talk of a
weissman offshoot which would use abyss. In Big Blue (Weissman
schoold deck shared by my wife and I) we even added two fireballs for
more off white anti-creature/offense.
To be successful against the weissman school (as opposed to deck) you
need to find a way to combat the principals, not just the cards. If
you rely on facing the cards then you will get hosed with moat vs
abyss, or fireball&swords vs straight swords, etc.
Craig
Tim Luptak
(Many wonderful but oft-spoken comments deleted)
>
>What's going on here? Someone please explain this dichotomy. I still live
>under the impression that the Mind Twist is a game winner only in a deck
>which is built to support it (i.e., Disrupting Sceptres), and that for this
>reason, its banning was improper.
>
I believe it was banned because of the ability to strip too many
counterspells out of the opponent's hand. I've heard the argument that if
you have them in your hand, then you ought to be using them, but I guess the
Twist, being black, was too fast in the opening stages (when used with
Rituals).
Discard does suffer a lot with the banning, but then it was always such a
superior strategy anyways, maybe this will even things up a bit...
--
"Curiosity killed the cat;
loathsome rituals BROUGHT IT BACK."
-Anonymous, KC MO
Bennett
it able to ber extrem,ely powerful for it's cost. Aside from being amazing
against those decks that hold cards for Ivory Tower and Library of Leng,
Blue has spells like Hurky'ls Recall, Boomerang, Unsummon, and Time elemental
to make it even more pwoerful. The only solace against it is that it is a
sorcery that costs UUU, so permisison players likely won't play it until they
have at least 4 islands, and I have personally held it until 6 sometimes.
>: >What's going on here? Someone please explain this dichotomy. I still live
>: >under the impression that the Mind Twist is a game winner only in a deck
>: >which is built to support it (i.e., Disrupting Sceptres), and that for this
>: >reason, its banning was improper.
>
>It is also arguable that Mind Twist is a card that any deck can be made
>better with for a very cheap cost. Plus, even if a lock isn't in place,
>Mind Twist is typically THE card that is the beginning to a short end of
>most decks.
>
using Celetsial Prisms. I found a good meduim with Red and Black, using
3-4 Fireballs and Disintegrates (for late game damage, when you need 8 or so
more damage to finish them) plus a Mind Twist. The mind twist always helped.
Craig Sivils
>> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 12:00:30 -0500
>> From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eac...@SPECTRE.MITRE.ORG>
>> Subject: Re: Discard Decks considered harmful? (to future of MtG)
>>
>> Hymns are very powerful in type I, but not as great in type II.
>Robert - I disagree completely. If you can Hymn of the first turn
>(Dark Ritual) and the second turn you've made your opponent discard
>four of his initial 7 cards. Depending on who went first he hasn't
>had a chance to play even the cheapest spells yet. Even worse, he's
>made you discard land, so you can't cast the things left in your
>hand, and they are sitting prey. Later in the game you can hold
>less important cards in you hand to decrease the chance of discarding
>good stuff, but early in the game you are a sittling duck.
First off, Excellent article, thank you.
But I'm going to have to side with Robert on this one, here is why.
In the example you gave, the black player used 3 cards to get rid of
4. Plus the black player devoted a significant amount of their first
and second turn mana as well. Type two due to the cards allows for a
more diverse variety of colors. IE: They won't all play blue. I
wouldn't consider taking a white weenie to a large type I. But id
consider it as a good possibility in a type II. If I'm playing white
weenie and have a land tax out, I'll shrug a hymn off and be thankful
it wasn't a gloom/pro white critter. There are other decks in type II
that are robust enough that the hymns don't cripple em. These
"robust" decks get hosed in type I since there are over-powered
defensive cards against them.
Craig
Michael Patrick Lynch
: >better with for a very cheap cost. Plus, even if a lock isn't in place,
: >Mind Twist is typically THE card that is the beginning to a short end of
: >most decks.
This is the pt of Mind Twist that I can understand and accept.
MT does make a deck better, and is often 90%+ a useful card.
HOWEVER MT does nothing to stem a tide or save a person.
ex. drawing MT will not help you from a Shivan Dragon when you have
no flying blockers.
ex. MT will not help you if your opponent just Armegedeoned all your land
away (even if you have maybe 1-3 artifact mana)
ex. has a Whirling Dervish with a blue ward when you are only palying B/U
So on and So forth.
MT is most effective IF you have the advantage(mana/creatures etc) in
PERMANENTS to keep your opponent from coming back.
HOWEVER there are other ways of doing this Zur's Weirdling will do the
samething though in a different manner.
MT is also effective if the game is even in term of permanents and your
opponent has a lot of cards left in hand. HOWEVER, in this case
these cards shouldn't be essential permanents or they should be in play
(turns 5+) or they should be instants, interupts that can be used in respone
to the twise.
I won't deny that MT can win games, but you usually need to be winning
or at least close to even in game terms for it to be effective.
It is not like a balance, Wrath of God, Armegedon, Earthquake, Control
Magic (stretching), Hurricane, or other spellls that can radically
shift the game balance. Time Walk (I'm tired :( referring to spell
gaining extra turn) is worse in my opinion as you can attack and be ready to
block or do things that you wouldn't afford resourace wise without
the extra turn to untap.
Plus I have used MT at times to no benefit. I have MT and found my
opponent with only a couple of lands in his hand or spells that
aren't useful against the colors I am playing. MT's early
when powered by permanents rather than D.R. are harsh, but unless
they force the opponent to be mana shy most decks have that 1
card like balance, etc that can turn the game back around they might
draw as well as Demonic Tutor to get it. (I know I am assuming no
counterspells against the card, but I am granting that I don't counter
the MT *fairs fair*) Hell a simple Land Tax elimates the mana shortage
threat which I think is the worse threat MT poses.
Anyway enough for now
Brent Burkholder
>
>Alexandria.
>
>However, what I can't figure out is this. Since I posted my Schools of
>Magic v.4.0 which lamented the loss of Mind Twist as it was the card around
>which the Weissman deck was built, Brian Weissman wrote me and said that it
>wasn't as crucial. Amnesia will do the job fine (and it's not restricted).
>As for the Library of Alexandria, as wonderful as the card is, it is suited
>to a slower defensive style (again, a la Weissman) which doesn't mind
>holding 6-7 cards in hand all the time.
>
>So I'm failing to see the correspondence in the arguments here. On the one
>hand, Paul's collected arguments suggest that the MindTwist and Library of
>Alexandria are the game winner cards. On the other hand, the creator of
>the ultimate Mind Twist/Library of Alexandria strategy says they can be
>easily replaced.
>
>under the impression that the Mind Twist is a game winner only in a deck
>which is built to support it (i.e., Disrupting Sceptres), and that for this
>reason, its banning was improper.
Ok, the reason? Amnesia can easily replace Mind Twist ONLY IN DECKS CONTAINING
A GREAT DEAL OF BLUE. There... simple enough. Brian's deck has blue mana
coming out its ears, so in fact it's easier to use for him than most
generic decks. One Black mana makes it easy to add to most decks, 3 blue
mana makes it nearly impossible to add to most decks. Ergo discard decks
(all black) can't use Amnesia at all. :) If MindTwist were BBBX I don't
think you'd hear anyone complaining much about it.
--
---------------------- -------------------------------------------------
Brent Burkholder < < "To coerce God is to coerce reality and answer
br...@beast.amd.com > > your own prayers." - Diamond Mask, Julian May
----------------------- -------------------------------------------------
Daniel Brickwell
>
>I won't deny that MT can win games, but you usually need to be winning
>or at least close to even in game terms for it to be effective.
>It is not like a balance, Wrath of God, Armegedon, Earthquake, Control
>Magic (stretching), Hurricane, or other spellls that can radically
>shift the game balance.
That is exactly what it does best. It radically shifts the game balance.
Or how do you explain, that people who have watched a lot of high level
games like Tom Wylie or Brian Weissman report, that the player who gets
his twist through in high level games wins 100%. Why?
Because an advanced tournament deck will not have useless cards on hand.
In fact I can report that the hand size is an extremely good indicator
how much pressure is being put on a tournament deck. A good
tournament deck will respond to pressure by playing spells, thereby emptying
his hand.
Also a lot of spells will be traded one to one making each
favorable trade like with hymn and mindtwist much more devestating.
If he mind twists you for three cards, that will be 2 cards you
will not be able to do anything against, ceteris paribus (all else
remaining the same).
Only a bad deck will have a hand full of useless spells and
quickly succumb.
>Plus I have used MT at times to no benefit. I have MT and found my
>opponent with only a couple of lands in his hand or spells that
>aren't useful against the colors I am playing.
Then the opponent had already lost, mindtwist just made sure of it.
Howver in toplevel games you will seldom find useless cards on the
opponents hand.
After the twist he will have to wait as many rounds to regain his
original hand size as you twisted him fore, while you draw additional
cards to finish him off. In this way a 5 point mind twist is like
a 4 round time walk.
How is that for power. Only the Libary of Alexandria comes close.
Friendly Greetings,
Daniel
Christopher H. Klaus
>I've never personally seen Chip's deck, but I found out that he got
>_SMOKED_ at a major Type I tourney down in North Carolina for a Beta Set.
>I got that analysis first-hand from the player who beat him and he wasn't
>overly impressed (btw, he played a permission/control type deck against
>Chip's Winter Orb/Ernham thing).
>
entire decks and Chip forgot to change his back to its standard form
after some experimenting. He was forced to concede the first game
because of it.