Q: Riptide Mangler + Pemmin's Aura
Acherontia atropos
I use PA and make the RM a -9/13
Can I use the RM's ability targeting itself to "fix" his power, and it
become a 0/13?
Andy Jakcsy
No. If a creature's power is negative, it's counted as 0 for all purposes
except for changing its power. Mangler's ability ("Change Riptide Mangler's
power to target creature's power.") changes its power, so it takes the actual
number, leaving it at a -9/13. At end of turn, it'll become a -9/3, because
the -1/+1 effects wear off, but the Mangler's ability doesn't (and its number
is based on the number given to it at the time it resolves and doesn't re-check
after that). You'd be better off making it a 2/1, then using the RM's ability
targeting itself, then next turn, make it a 4/1, and use the Mangler's ability
targeting itself again...
----
"How are we gonna get to the island now?"
"Well, you can have a ride on my dinghy."
--Tawny Dean and Tom Gribalski, "The Even Stevens Movie"
Yes, I respond to Scally, even though he/she/it PLONKed me. So sue me!
Lee Sharpe
No. It's power is still -9, and setting it to itself just makes it -9
still. You simply treat it 0 for all purposes of assigning damage and the
like. But for calculating its power, you treat it as its actual value,
-9.
--
Lee Sharpe
DCI Level 2 Judge
http://www.uiuc.edu/ro/mtg
David DeLaney
>I have in play Riptide Mangler enchanted by Pemmin's Aura.
>I use PA and make the RM a -9/13
Er. Either -9/12, or -10/13. PA by itself can't make it -9/13, since it
is starting off 0/3. I'll assume here it's -10/13...
>Can I use the RM's ability targeting itself to "fix" his power, and it
>become a 0/13?
Unlike most of the other such tricks using Morphling/Pemmin's Aura, this
one DOES work as described. Why? Because Riptide Mangler, in order to
set its power equal to target creature's, must first ask what that power
_is_. (Things that just add to or subtract from it, etc., don't have to
ask what it is first... so see the real value.) And when it asks "What is
my power?", this isn't in itself changing that power, so it gets the answer
"-10, which works just like 0". And then it sets its power... to 0. So _now_
it's a 0/13 in fact, where before it was a -10/13 which worked just like a
0/13 except for changing the power.
RM isn't adding to the power, it's setting it directly... so its "My power
is now: 0" doesn't have a "<psst: minus ten, = -10>" floating around. So
it really does set the power to zero. Lather, rinse, repeat.
However: when Pemmin's Aura's -1/+1s wear off in Cleanup step? This does
NOT raise the RM's power up to 10 and make it a 10/3. Rather, the -1/+1s
wear off... but the "My power is 0" effect from RM -is still there- (and
is now redundant, in this case). So it's going to go from being a 0/13 to
being a 0/3 again, not to "a 10/3". What you want to do to take advantage
of this trick is use PA some MORE after setting the power to 0, giving
the RM some +1/-1s, say up to 5/8. Then use RM's ability _again_, setting
its power equal, this time, to 5. (And again, it'll stay there after the
PA effects wear off, since they're being pulled "out from under" the "my
power is now 5" effect.)
For the same amount of mana it takes to make it a 0/13 and 'fix' the zero,
assuming you have two blue available in that 12 mana, you can make it a
0/7 (-4/7), "fix" the 0 by using RM once (costs 1U), pump it up to 4/3,
then "fix" the 4 by using RM again. And after that you'll have a "my
power is 4" RM sitting there even after end of turn. Unfortunately, to
get it higher afterwards 'permanently', you have to pump it _back_ all
the way down to 0/7 and beyond, 'fix' it again, then pump it _back_ up
to power higher-than-4 and 'fix' it yet _again_. So it'll cost, not two
more mana, but 14 more mana to get it to be 'permanently power 5' after
you make it 'permanently power 4'. Each higher power step, in other
words, costs as much as just doing it from scratch...
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>Acherontia sez:
>>I have in play Riptide Mangler enchanted by Pemmin's Aura.
>>I use PA and make the RM a -9/13
>>Can I use the RM's ability targeting itself to "fix" his power, and it
>>become a 0/13?
>
>No. If a creature's power is negative, it's counted as 0 for all purposes
>except for changing its power. Mangler's ability ("Change Riptide Mangler's
>power to target creature's power.") changes its power, so it takes the actual
>number, leaving it at a -9/13.
Yes and no. It does change the power... but first it has to READ the power in.
And _that_ givs it the answer "0". Just like a Mirror Universe, used on
a player whose life total is less than 0 (Lich, Transcendence, Soul Echo),
gives the _other_ player a life total of 0 life, not "-N" life.
> At end of turn, it'll become a -9/3, because
>the -1/+1 effects wear off, but the Mangler's ability doesn't (and its number
>is based on the number given to it at the time it resolves and doesn't re-check
>after that). You'd be better off making it a 2/1, then using the RM's ability
>targeting itself, then next turn, make it a 4/1, and use the Mangler's ability
>targeting itself again...
That latter is indeed a much more efficient use of the combo.
Acherontia atropos
>No. If a creature's power is negative, it's counted as 0 for all purposes
>except for changing its power.
Mh...
"K.10.3 - A creature with negative power or toughness is considered to
have zero power/toughness for all reasons other than for changing the
power/toughness." [D'Angelo]
Ok.
It means "...for changing *this* power/toughness?" Or "...for changing
*whatever* power/toughness? O__o
- I have a -9/13 RM;
- I use the RM's ability targeting itself...
- the ability resolves: it "read" the power of target creature...
don't treat it as 0?
And if I control 2 "pemmined" RM, both -9/13, and I use ability of RM
"A" targeting "B"?
Thanks&sorry! ^__^;;;
William Goeman
> djax...@aol.commentary (Andy Jakcsy) ha scritto:
>
>
>>No. If a creature's power is negative, it's counted as 0 for all purposes
>>except for changing its power.
>
>
> Mh...
> "K.10.3 - A creature with negative power or toughness is considered to
> have zero power/toughness for all reasons other than for changing the
> power/toughness." [D'Angelo]
>
> Ok.
> It means "...for changing *this* power/toughness?" Or "...for changing
> *whatever* power/toughness? O__o
Well, what other power/toughness are we talking about? It basically
means "Unless you're thinking about changing the power/toughness of this
creature, and the fact that this creature's power is currently negative
is actually relevant, consider it to be 0."
> - I have a -9/13 RM;
> - I use the RM's ability targeting itself...
> - the ability resolves: it "read" the power of target creature...
> don't treat it as 0?
No, it doesn't - because you're changing the P/T of the creature. So,
because of the D'Angelo ruling you cited above, we actually take note of
the fact that the power is _actually_ -9.
> And if I control 2 "pemmined" RM, both -9/13, and I use ability of RM
> "A" targeting "B"?
I'd agree that the wording here is a little bit poor. Barring word from
DDL or another Power That Be, I'd say that since you're changing the P/T
of 'a creature,' the fact that RM B's power is negative should still be
relevant, and A's power would get set to -9 by its own ability.
-Bill Goeman
Zoe Stephenson
> Acherontia atropos wrote:
>> djax...@aol.commentary (Andy Jakcsy) ha scritto:
>>
>>
>>>No. If a creature's power is negative, it's counted as 0 for all purposes
>>>except for changing its power.
The relevant part, as far as I can tell, is in the Glossary:
Number
[...] If a creature's power or toughness [...] would be less than zero,
it's treated as zero for all purposes except adding to or subtracting
from that total.
There is a rule that says that setting a life total is equivalent to
an appropriate gain or loss, ISTR, but no equivalent for setting power
or toughness. So, setting the power or toughness isn't the same as
adding to or substracting from it, and effects that set power or
toughness will not see a negative total, just the zero.
>> Mh...
>> "K.10.3 - A creature with negative power or toughness is considered to
>> have zero power/toughness for all reasons other than for changing the
>> power/toughness." [D'Angelo]
>>
>> Ok.
>> It means "...for changing *this* power/toughness?" Or "...for changing
>> *whatever* power/toughness? O__o
> Well, what other power/toughness are we talking about? It basically
> means "Unless you're thinking about changing the power/toughness of this
> creature, and the fact that this creature's power is currently negative
> is actually relevant, consider it to be 0."
"Unless you're thinking about adding to or subtracting from..."
>> - I have a -9/13 RM;
>> - I use the RM's ability targeting itself...
>> - the ability resolves: it "read" the power of target creature...
>> don't treat it as 0?
> No, it doesn't - because you're changing the P/T of the creature. So,
> because of the D'Angelo ruling you cited above, we actually take note of
> the fact that the power is _actually_ -9.
>> And if I control 2 "pemmined" RM, both -9/13, and I use ability of RM
>> "A" targeting "B"?
> I'd agree that the wording here is a little bit poor. Barring word from
> DDL or another Power That Be, I'd say that since you're changing the P/T
> of 'a creature,' the fact that RM B's power is negative should still be
> relevant, and A's power would get set to -9 by its own ability.
I suspect the answer is simpler than this: if you're making an adjustment
relative to the current power or toughness, then you see the real value
when negative. If you're doing something else, like setting one power
or toughness to the value of another, or otherwise doing something based
on the power or toughness, negative values will look like zero.
Perhaps K.10.3 is badly worded in this regard? Or have I missed the
point completely?
--
-- zoe
Massimo Sabbadini
wrote:
>then "fix" the 4 by using RM again. And after that you'll have a "my
>power is 4" RM sitting there even after end of turn. Unfortunately, to
>get it higher afterwards 'permanently', you have to pump it _back_ all
>the way down to 0/7 and beyond, 'fix' it again, then pump it _back_ up
>to power higher-than-4 and 'fix' it yet _again_.
Why? Can't you just pump it to 5/2 or 6/1 and then fix _that_ power
permanently?
Lee Sharpe
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, William Goeman wrote:
>
I think I have to disagree with you here. For reference, we'll quote the
D'Angelo rule again.
"K.10.3 - A creature with negative power or toughness is considered to
have zero power/toughness for all reasons other than for changing the
power/toughness." [D'Angelo]
> It basically
> means "Unless you're thinking about changing the power/toughness of this
> creature, and the fact that this creature's power is currently negative
> is actually relevant, consider it to be 0."
Under normal circumstances, I would agree with this interpretation. But
to me this like saying that playing Shock on a 2/2 animated land will
trigger Sacred Ground "because you're thinking about destorying the
creature." Just because the result is the same, doesn't mean it's
actually *doing* that.
The end result is that it changes the power, yes (ignoring a potential
debate about whether setting a creature's power to a value it already was
is even considered a change at all). But there's a difference here.
Take an effect "Target creature gets +1/+0" until end of turn. This is
equivalent to saying "Increase your power by 1." It doesn't read the
current power, add one, and then set it to that value.
What happens here is that Riptide Mangler's effect asks Riptide Manger,
"What is your power?" The Mangler says, "Well, my power is technically
-9. But whenever I'm asked that, I'm supposed to say 0. So, 0." The
effect then says, "0? OK. Then, Riptide Mangler, your power is now 0."
(Forgive my personification of cards and effects.)
When Riptide Mangeler asked its power, it just returns a value. It has no
idea what is going to be done with this value. Then, it's told to make
its power a different number, and it happily complies. I guess the real
key here is that the reading of Riptide Mangler's power and the setting of
it must be viewed as seperate acts, which is fundamentally different from
what the D'Angelo ruling's exception, which is designed to apply to
effects which increase and decrease power and toughness by specific
amounts (such as Giant Growth).
David DeLaney
Sure - but that's a different trick than the one the person I was
answeing was trying to use (and I didn't actually see the other trick
while answering - strategy is not my strong point). Using the pump-down-to-
zero, fix, pump-up, fix, trick is a lot more expensive than the pump-up-a-
couple, fix, repeat next turn trick. But both tricks _work_ when used by RM.
David DeLaney
>Acherontia atropos wrote:
>> djax...@aol.commentary (Andy Jakcsy) ha scritto:
>>>No. If a creature's power is negative, it's counted as 0 for all purposes
>>>except for changing its power.
Right. Including asking "Hey, what _is_ the power of this creature, I need
to know for a school project?".
>> It means "...for changing *this* power/toughness?" Or "...for changing
>> *whatever* power/toughness? O__o
It means "for changing the power/toughness that's less than zero". Note
that creatures with toughness < 0 (or = 0) don't last at all long before
state-based effects whack them...
>Well, what other power/toughness are we talking about? It basically
>means "Unless you're thinking about changing the power/toughness of this
>creature, and the fact that this creature's power is currently negative
>is actually relevant, consider it to be 0."
Actually, it means "Unless you're _changing_ the power/toughness...". No
"thinking about", "comparing", etc., is in there. If you COMPARE two
negative powers, they come up equal... because they're both zero. Even
if you're doing so to increase the larger one by two, or some such.
>> - I have a -9/13 RM;
>> - I use the RM's ability targeting itself...
>> - the ability resolves: it "read" the power of target creature...
>> don't treat it as 0?
Yes, it does. (And, as before, you PROBABLY have a -10/13 or -9/12 RM;
go read Pemmin's Aura and the RM again...)
>No, it doesn't - because you're changing the P/T of the creature.
No, you're not. Not yet. First you're _finding out_ what the power is.
And the answer you get back is "zero". THEN you go to set the power
to the answer you got... and you didn't get the answer "-9", you got
the answer "0".
> So, because of the D'Angelo ruling you cited above, we actually take note of
>the fact that the power is _actually_ -9.
Nope. Because we weren't _changing_ the power yet, we were just asking what
it in fact was.
>> And if I control 2 "pemmined" RM, both -9/13, and I use ability of RM
>> "A" targeting "B"?
>
>I'd agree that the wording here is a little bit poor. Barring word from
>DDL or another Power That Be, I'd say that since you're changing the P/T
>of 'a creature,' the fact that RM B's power is negative should still be
>relevant, and A's power would get set to -9 by its own ability.
Again, here, it gets set to 0. Not "-9 masquerading as 0", because that's
not the answer it got when it asked "What's the power of that target
creature anyway?".
(And again this overwrites the -1/+1s from Pemmin's Aura, and sticks
around after those wear off, so after end of turn the RM is just 0/3
again, not "10/3".)
David DeLaney
>I think I have to disagree with you here. For reference, we'll quote the
>D'Angelo rule again.
>
>"K.10.3 - A creature with negative power or toughness is considered to
>have zero power/toughness for all reasons other than for changing the
>power/toughness." [D'Angelo]
Right. (The rulebook's actually slightly less accurate; this does apply
to doubling, halving, etc., the p/t as well as to adding to or subtracting
from it, so "changing" is the right verb here.)
>What happens here is that Riptide Mangler's effect asks Riptide Manger,
>"What is your power?" The Mangler says, "Well, my power is technically
>-9. But whenever I'm asked that, I'm supposed to say 0. So, 0." The
>effect then says, "0? OK. Then, Riptide Mangler, your power is now 0."
>(Forgive my personification of cards and effects.)
Right.
Acherontia atropos
>Yes, it does. (And, as before, you PROBABLY have a -10/13 or -9/12 RM;
>go read Pemmin's Aura and the RM again...)
Oooops! ;)
Acherontia atropos
>Yes, it does. (And, as before, you PROBABLY have a -10/13 or -9/12 RM;
>go read Pemmin's Aura and the RM again...)
Sorry, a little mistake!!! ^_^;;;;
David DeLaney
Lee:
>No. It's power is still -9, and setting it to itself just makes it -9
>still. You simply treat it 0 for all purposes of assigning damage and the
>like. But for calculating its power, you treat it as its actual value, -9.
Its power is indeed -9. But setting its power to the power of "target
creature which happens to be itself" does have two pieces, not one. The
second bit is setting RM's power to the indicated number, yes ... but the
first part involves finding what that number, in fact, _is_. And here is
where the "it's read as 0 if it's less than 0 and you're not changing it"
steps in - when RM asks "what is my power? I'm not changing it right now,
just asking" it gets the answer "0, in that case". So it then sets its
power to ... 0. Not "to -9 which is treated like 0 except for changing it",
because that's not the answer it actually got when it asked... because
it wasn't saying "What is my power, I need to add three to it" or the like.