Swamp Mosquito + Fireshrieker
Chuck Whitby
Swamp Mosquito
Creature - Mosquito
1B
Flying
Whenever Swamp Mosquito attacks and isn't blocked, defending player gets a
poison counter. A player with ten or more poison counters loses the game.
0/1
Fireshrieker
Artifact - Equipment
3
Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both first-strike and
regular combat damage.)
Equip 2 (2: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.
This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the creature
leaves play.)
Will a Fireshrieker equiped Swamp Mosquito deal two points of poison? Or
is the fact that it's giving poison because it's not blocked the reason the
opponent gets a poison counter?
--
___
Chuck Whitby - Founder
}> - - - East Coast Gaming Expo - - - <{
The Con By The Collectors For The Collectors
http://www.ecgx.com
Lee Sharpe
> I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but since I'm not 100% positive I'll ask.
>
> Swamp Mosquito
> Creature - Mosquito
> 1B
> Flying
> Whenever Swamp Mosquito attacks and isn't blocked, defending player gets a
> poison counter. A player with ten or more poison counters loses the game.
> 0/1
>
> Fireshrieker
> Artifact - Equipment
> 3
> Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both first-strike and
> regular combat damage.)
> Equip 2 (2: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.
>
> This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the creature
> leaves play.)
>
> Will a Fireshrieker equiped Swamp Mosquito deal two points of poison? Or
> is the fact that it's giving poison because it's not blocked the reason the
> opponent gets a poison counter?
The Swamp Mosquito triggers on attacking and not blocked. Double strike
doesn't change when creatures are assigned as attackers and blockers, so this
event only occurs once. Thus, it will only produce one poison counter.
--
Lee Sharpe, sha...@uiuc.edu
DCI Level 2 Judge
Jeff Heikkinen
> I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but since I'm not 100% positive I'll ask.
>
> Swamp Mosquito
> Creature - Mosquito
> 1B
> Flying
> Whenever Swamp Mosquito attacks and isn't blocked, defending player gets a
> poison counter. A player with ten or more poison counters loses the game.
> 0/1
>
> Fireshrieker
> Artifact - Equipment
> 3
> Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both first-strike and
> regular combat damage.)
> Equip 2 (2: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.
> This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the creature
> leaves play.)
>
> Will a Fireshrieker equiped Swamp Mosquito deal two points of poison? Or
> is the fact that it's giving poison because it's not blocked the reason the
> opponent gets a poison counter?
The Swamp Mosquito's ability is a triggered ability whose triggering
condition is "Swamp Mosquito attacks and isn't blocked". That happens,
at most, once on any turn (barring cards like Relentless Assault), just
after the declare blockers step. This happens way before first strike
or double strike can affect anything. So it will only deal out one
poison counter.
Some of the poison creatures, however, trigger on dealing combat damage,
if I remember correctly. Let's see... (a quick search of Oracle later)
Ah, yes:
Marsh Viper
{3}{G}
Creature -- Viper
1/2
Whenever Marsh Viper deals damage to an opponent, that player gets two
poison counters. (A player with ten or more poison counters loses the
game.)
Notice the difference - "whenever Marsh Viper deals damage to an
opponent". In this case it doesn't even have to be combat damage; go
ahead and enchant Marsh Viper with a Fire Whip. More relevantly to your
question, though, Marsh Viper would deal out four poison counters,
rather than two, if it went unblocked while equipped with Fireshrieker.
(How would Swamp Mosquito have to be worded for this to happen? Given
its zero power, it would be difficult to word properly. I'm not sure
even the following would work, due to how the rules treat zero damage -
Dave?
Improved Swamp Mosquito
Creature -- Mosquito
0/1
Flying
Whenever Swamp Mosquito would deal combat damage, you may prevent that
damage. If you do, the defending player gets a poison counter. (A
player with ten or more poison counters loses the game.)
)
Chuck Whitby
they still would get the poison counter because a blocker was never
declared, correct?
David DeLaney
>I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but since I'm not 100% positive I'll ask.
>
>Swamp Mosquito >Creature - Mosquito >1B
>
Okay, Before looking further down: Having double strike doesn't change when
or how many times Swamp Mosquito's triggered ability triggers. It doesn't
depend on whether or when the SM actually deals (combat) damage, only on
whether the SM attacks and doesn't get blocked as blockers are declared.
>Will a Fireshrieker equiped Swamp Mosquito deal two points of poison? Or
>is the fact that it's giving poison because it's not blocked the reason the
>opponent gets a poison counter?
The ability says it triggers when SM attacks-and-isn't-blocked, which has
little or nothing to do with whether it has first strike, double strike,
double first strike, etc. So your second question is the one that gets a "Yes".
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>(How would Swamp Mosquito have to be worded for this to happen? Given
>its zero power, it would be difficult to word properly. I'm not sure
>even the following would work, due to how the rules treat zero damage -
>Dave?
Well, iff'n it _were_ one of the ones that strewed around poison counters
triggering off of damage, probably they would have made it a 1/1 flier...
>Improved Swamp Mosquito >Creature -- Mosquito
>0/1 Flying Whenever ~ would deal combat damage, you may prevent that
>damage. If you do, the defending player gets a poison counter. (*)
Interesting, though this wouldn't be a triggered ability - a triggered ability
would resolve way too late to actually prevent the damage. You'd want to word
it "If ~ would deal ..." rather than what you've got. Interesting concept.
David DeLaney
>Okay, so then if I attacked with my Swamp Mosquito and they Maze of Ith it,
>they still would get the poison counter because a blocker was never
>declared, correct?
Right. Mazing it does NOT block it, and if they don't -also- block it its
triggered ability will trigger normally. Same for things like Bone Dancer,
Crypt Cobra, Floral Spuzzem, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Lim-Dul's Paladin (which
also has a triggered ability that triggers when it -does- get blocked, you
can't win either way against it...), etc.
Jeff Heikkinen
> Jeff Heikkinen <o...@s.if> wrote:
> >(How would Swamp Mosquito have to be worded for this to happen? Given
> >its zero power, it would be difficult to word properly. I'm not sure
> >even the following would work, due to how the rules treat zero damage -
> >Dave?
>
> Well, iff'n it _were_ one of the ones that strewed around poison counters
> triggering off of damage, probably they would have made it a 1/1 flier...
>
> >Improved Swamp Mosquito >Creature -- Mosquito
> >0/1 Flying Whenever ~ would deal combat damage, you may prevent that
> >damage. If you do, the defending player gets a poison counter. (*)
>
> Interesting, though this wouldn't be a triggered ability - a triggered ability
> would resolve way too late to actually prevent the damage. You'd want to word
> it "If ~ would deal ..." rather than what you've got. Interesting concept.
You're right about needing to say "if", sorry.
My question is, would this work? Under the rules as presently written,
and assuming nothing is raising ISM's power, does the condition the
replacement effect is replacing even occur?
Jeff Heikkinen
> Jeff Heikkinen <o...@s.if> wrote:
> >(How would Swamp Mosquito have to be worded for this to happen? Given
> >its zero power, it would be difficult to word properly. I'm not sure
> >even the following would work, due to how the rules treat zero damage -
> >Dave?
>
> Well, iff'n it _were_ one of the ones that strewed around poison counters
> triggering off of damage, probably they would have made it a 1/1 flier...
>
> >Improved Swamp Mosquito >Creature -- Mosquito
> >0/1 Flying Whenever ~ would deal combat damage, you may prevent that
> >damage. If you do, the defending player gets a poison counter. (*)
>
> Interesting, though this wouldn't be a triggered ability - a triggered ability
> would resolve way too late to actually prevent the damage. You'd want to word
> it "If ~ would deal ..." rather than what you've got. Interesting concept.
Just noticed that my wording is sloppy on two other fronts as well.
First of all it allows the ISM to deal out a poison counter even if it's
blocked, similarly to Lone Wolf's ability. Come to think of it, that
isn't necessarily a bad idea, but was not my intention. Secondly, it
lets you prevent its combat damage when you're *blocking* with it and
give yourself a poison counter. Why you would want to do that in any
situation that would plausibly come up in a real game is beyond me
(though I can think of two hypotheticals where it could happen), so in a
sense that problem is self-correcting, but it's very weird to allow it.
David de Kloet
> Chuck Whitby <intv...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >Okay, so then if I attacked with my Swamp Mosquito and they Maze of Ith it,
> >they still would get the poison counter because a blocker was never
> >declared, correct?
>
> Right. Mazing it does NOT block it, and if they don't -also- block it its
> triggered ability will trigger normally. Same for things like Bone Dancer,
> Crypt Cobra, Floral Spuzzem, Keeper of Tresserhorn, Lim-Dul's Paladin (which
> also has a triggered ability that triggers when it -does- get blocked, you
> can't win either way against it...), etc.
Do they also work if they're removed from combat before defending
player even got the chance to block them? (Note that Maze of Ith
doesn't remove the creature from combat.)
David
Daniel W. Johnson
> Okay, so then if I attacked with my Swamp Mosquito and they Maze of Ith it,
> they still would get the poison counter because a blocker was never
> declared, correct?
Maze of Ith
Land
{T}: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that
would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn.
Maze of Ith doesn't interact with the declaration of blockers. If the
Maze of Ith is used during the declare attackers step, the Swamp
Mosquito can still be blocked, preventing its ability from triggering.
If the Maze of Ith is used during or after the declare blockers step, it
won't touch whether the Swamp Mosquito ability already triggered.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
pano...@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
Andy Jakcsy
<<
>I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but since I'm not 100% positive I'll ask.
>
>Swamp Mosquito
>Creature - Mosquito
>1B
>Flying
>Whenever Swamp Mosquito attacks and isn't blocked, defending player gets a
>poison counter. A player with ten or more poison counters loses the game.
>0/1
>
>Fireshrieker
>Artifact - Equipment
3
>Equipped creature has double strike. (It deals both first-strike and
regular combat damage.)
>Equip 2 (2: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.
>This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the creature
leaves play.)
>
>Will a Fireshrieker equiped Swamp Mosquito deal two points of poison? Or
>is the fact that it's giving poison because it's not blocked the reason the
>opponent gets a poison counter?
>
>>
The latter. The player only gets one poison counter. Swamp Mosquito is the
"special poison case": It can't deal damage, but its makers wanted it to have
poison anyway. So it uses "attacks and isn't blocked" instead of "deals combat
damage to a player" for the poison trigger. This makes its interaction with
stuff like Fireshrieker different. Everything else with poison would give
double poison counters with Fireshrieker, while the Mosquito only gives single
poison counters...
----
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
--Sigmund Freud
"Sometimes a cake is just a cake."
--Deanna Troi, Star Trek: TNG: "Phantasms"
Chris Mattern
No. The ability triggers in the Declare Blockers step, and is placed
on the stack immediately after the defender declares his blockers
(assuming he in fact did not declare a blocker for the Mosquito).
If the Mosquito has been removed from combat before this, it does
not trigger. Note that removing it from combat *after* this doesn't
stop the poison, even if you do it before damage dealing.
--
Christopher Mattern
"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
David DeLaney
Nope. "When ~ attacks and is not blocked" specifically triggers only while
blockers are being declared; if the attacker with such an ability gets
removed from combat before that point, the ability doesn't trigger. (To
put it another way, it doesn't "trigger when ~ attacks, then wait around to
see if it doesn't get blocked, then go on the stack"...)
>(Note that Maze of Ith doesn't remove the creature from combat.)
Right. [Also a big FAQ for that card...]
David DeLaney
>David DeLaney, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>>would resolve way too late to actually prevent the damage. You'd want to word
>>it "If ~ would deal ..." rather than what you've got. Interesting concept.
>
>You're right about needing to say "if", sorry.
>
>My question is, would this work? Under the rules as presently written,
>and assuming nothing is raising ISM's power, does the condition the
>replacement effect is replacing even occur?
Oh right. No, if its power is 0, it's not actually gonna be dealing combat
damage either - 0 damage is no damage is "damage wasn't dealt". So you get
put back to still having to raise its power to at least 1, for the effect
to have something to replace. (It could still -have- the replacement ability
and zero power, it would just be a -far- more confusing card, and would lead
to repeated appearance of the "does it deal damage at all?" question...)