rules question regarding trample
MatMan
and it blocks a larger trampling creature, do you still take trample damage?
For instance, I have a 2/2 Whatever with Gasseous Form on it, and I block a
6/6 trampler. Do I take 4 points of damage?
Thanks.
Parallax
wrote:
Good news, you don't take 4 points of damage.
Bad news, you take 6.
Trampling creatures assign lethal damage to all creatures blocking
them, that they can legally assign damage to, and THEN, if there is
any damage left over, they assign it to the player.
Gaseous form says that damage cannot even be assigned to the creature,
so it's not legal to do so. Therefore, all damage tramples through and
smacks you.
--Parallax
ps, this was the ruling a few months ago, Not 100% sure if it's true
for 6th-edition or not, but I am 99% sure it is.
Sweeping generalizations always have exceptions, even this one.
MatMan
combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by creatures you control.").
Same thing?
(Gaseous Form reads: "Target creature neither receives nor deals damage
during combat.")
David Weinlick
> >If you have a creature that neither takes nor recieves damage during combat,
> >and it blocks a larger trampling creature, do you still take trample damage?
> >
> >For instance, I have a 2/2 Whatever with Gasseous Form on it, and I block a
> >6/6 trampler. Do I take 4 points of damage?
>
> Good news, you don't take 4 points of damage.
> Bad news, you take 6.
This is wrong. You will take 4 at most. If the attacking player, for some
unknown reason wants to assign more damage to the gaseous blocker, he or she can
do so. You will take whatever portion of the damage is assigned to you. The
most the player can assign is 4, because 2 must first be assigned to the
blocker.
> Trampling creatures assign lethal damage to all creatures blocking
> them, that they can legally assign damage to, and THEN, if there is
> any damage left over, they assign it to the player.
This is correct.
>
> Gaseous form says that damage cannot even be assigned to the creature,
> so it's not legal to do so. Therefore, all damage tramples through and
> smacks you.
Gaseous Form prevents damage from being dealt, but it does not prevent it from
being assigned. In fact, the attacking player MUST assign at least two points
of damage to the gaseous blocker before assigning any trample damage.
--
David Weinlick
<da...@tcinternet.net>--<fus...@tcinternet.net>
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2383/
Michael Kastberg
>OK then, suppose I had the enchantment Statecraft in play ("Prevent
all
combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by creatures you
control.").
Same thing?<
Yes, its the exact same thing.
>(Gaseous Form reads: "Target creature neither receives nor deals
damage
during combat.")<
No, you have an outdated spoiler list. The new wording is:"Prevent all
damage that would be dealt to enchanted creature".
--
Take care,
Michael Kastberg
Law Student, University of Copenhagen
Kast...@vip.cybercity.dk
Parallax
<fus...@tcinternet.net> wrote:
>Parallax wrote:
>
>> >If you have a creature that neither takes nor recieves damage during combat,
>> >and it blocks a larger trampling creature, do you still take trample damage?
>> >
>> >For instance, I have a 2/2 Whatever with Gasseous Form on it, and I block a
>> >6/6 trampler. Do I take 4 points of damage?
>>
>> Good news, you don't take 4 points of damage.
>> Bad news, you take 6.
>
>This is wrong. You will take 4 at most. If the attacking player, for some
>unknown reason wants to assign more damage to the gaseous blocker, he or she can
>do so. You will take whatever portion of the damage is assigned to you. The
>most the player can assign is 4, because 2 must first be assigned to the
>blocker.
Sorry for the misinformation. As my trailer to my post said, I've been
out of this for a bit, and leave it to them to change one of the
things I post on.
--Parallax
Parallax
wrote:
>OK then, suppose I had the enchantment Statecraft in play ("Prevent all
>combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by creatures you control.").
>Same thing?
>(Gaseous Form reads: "Target creature neither receives nor deals damage
>during combat.")
At the risk of being wrong again :), I'd say 'No.'
Statecraft allows the damage to be assigned (Like, apparently, Gaseous
Form now does) but then prevents it. Therefore, both cards would make
you have to assign lethal damage to the creatures, even though, in the
end, it would not kill them.
David Weinlick
> OK then, suppose I had the enchantment Statecraft in play ("Prevent all
> combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by creatures you control.").
> Same thing?
> (Gaseous Form reads: "Target creature neither receives nor deals damage
> during combat.")
>
Actually, Gaseous Form reads:
GASEOUS FORM
2U
Enchant Creature
Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by enchanted
creature.
Always check your Oracle text. The effects are identical. Note also that
local enchantments no longer target their enchantees, so the wording you gave
would no longer work for Gaseous Form.
MatMan
straight from the horse's mouth:
Yes, I would take 4 damage from the 6/6 creature with trampling. Despite
the fact that Statecraft prevents damage to my 2/2 creature, the attacking
6/6 still deals 2 points of damage to it (or whatever amount would normally
be necessary to kill it), and the rest tramples through to me. My creature
survives combat, however, as the 2 points of damage are negated before
damage is dealt.
There you go.
David Weinlick
You'll note that this is the answer you were given on this group, except for
one poster who was looking at an old card text. However, your opponent could
choose to assign damage differently--you will take four if no other strategic
ploy is entering into your opponent's mind. You will take NO MORE than four,
however.
MatMan
David Weinlick
> Jeez, chill out, man.
No worries...I just wouldn't want you to feel that you couldn't find
answers on this group. At times, the posts may fly and get confusing,
but the answers are here...
Dennis
getting all the nitpick rules down. As I remember from somewhere,
Protection reduces all damage to zero, doesn't prevent it (this might have
change) would that wording change affect trample because to assign lethal
damage to say a 2/2 guy it has to do assign 2 damage, but if that is reduced
to 0 it didn't really assign lethal damage and doesn't trample. This might
of changed in 6th, but last time I looked up this on the web that's what I
was told, clarification would be helpful.
Thanks
Laurie Cheers <lrc...@york.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:38182FCF...@york.ac.uk...
> sunt...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Hang on, local enchantments don't target? Does this mean I actually
> > CAN enchant my Elvish Lookout with Regeneration?
>
> No, not directly. If you cast a local enchantment spell, then it has to
> target something. However, once that spell resolves and comes into play,
> it stops being a spell and stops targetting anything.
>
> That means that if you get the Regeneration into play without casting it
> (Replenish and Flicker come to mind), you can put it onto the Lookout.
>
> > And that I can't kill a Skulking Ghost or someone with Spinal Graft by
> > enchanting them?
>
> If you cast the enchantment as a spell, you can kill the Ghost just
> fine.
>
> > Also, regarding the main topic of this thread: does protection work
> > the same way?
>
> [...as Gaseous Form or Statecraft]
>
> Yes.
>
> > Can (for example) my opponent's 10/10 Minion of the Wastes attack, be
> > blocked by a White Knight and still do 8 damage to me?
>
> Assuming it has Trample, yes that's right.
>
> The same is also true for Inviolability or Wall of Shadows.
>
> --
> Laurie Cheers (lrc...@york.ac.uk)
> Only fools can't see
> the emperor's new .sig:
sunt...@my-deja.com
fus...@tcinternet.net wrote:
> Always check your Oracle text. The effects are identical. Note also
that
> local enchantments no longer target their enchantees, so the wording
you gave
> would no longer work for Gaseous Form.
Hang on, local enchantments don't target? Does this mean I actually CAN
enchant my Elvish Lookout with Regeneration? And that I can't kill a
Skulking Ghost or someone with Spinal Graft by enchanting them?
Also, regarding the main topic of this thread: does protection work the
same way? Can (for example) my opponent's 10/10 Minion of the Wastes
attack, be blocked by a White Knight and still do 8 damage to me?
Suntiger
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David DeLaney
>OK then, suppose I had the enchantment Statecraft in play ("Prevent all
>combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by creatures you control.").
>Same thing?
Same thing as Gaseous Form, yes.
>(Gaseous Form reads: "Target creature neither receives nor deals damage
>during combat.")
However, this is a No. Gaseous Form reads "Prevent all combat damage that
would be dealt to or dealt by enchanted creature". A somewhat different
effect, which interacts -differently- with Trample than "doesn't receive
combat damage" would. But this works the same as Statecraft does.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://panacea.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>If you have a creature that neither takes nor recieves damage during combat,
Pretty much all such effects now read "Prevent all combat damage that would
be dealt to or dealt by <this>". This changes how they work.
>and it blocks a larger trampling creature, do you still take trample damage?
The Trampling attacker has to -assign- at least the blocker's toughness in
combat damage to the blocker, even if you know it'll be prevented when it
tries to get dealt. The rest is free to be assigned straight to defending
player.
(Note: if you -do- manage to get a creature that won't -receive- combat
damage - and the only way, really, to do this any more is to remove it
from combat -after- it has blocked the attacker - then the Trampler ignores
it entirely, just as if the blocker had been killed before damage-dealing,
and if there are no other blockers blocking it, assigns all its combat
damage straight to defender. Which -may- have been what you wanted to ask
about, having been Deceived by the wording on the Gaseous Form -card-,
not knowing it was Errataed in Oracle.)
>For instance, I have a 2/2 Whatever with Gasseous Form on it, and I block a
>6/6 trampler. Do I take 4 points of damage?
At most 4, yes. The 6/6 has to assign at least 2 to the blocker, and at
most 4 to you; whatever it assigns to the blocker will get -prevented-.
(If Gaseous Form -were- still worded "doesn't deal or receive combat damage",
then the 6/6 would -have to- assign all 6 damage straight to you.)
Laurie Cheers
> Hang on, local enchantments don't target? Does this mean I actually
> CAN enchant my Elvish Lookout with Regeneration?
No, not directly. If you cast a local enchantment spell, then it has to
target something. However, once that spell resolves and comes into play,
it stops being a spell and stops targetting anything.
That means that if you get the Regeneration into play without casting it
(Replenish and Flicker come to mind), you can put it onto the Lookout.
> And that I can't kill a Skulking Ghost or someone with Spinal Graft by
> enchanting them?
If you cast the enchantment as a spell, you can kill the Ghost just
fine.
> Also, regarding the main topic of this thread: does protection work
> the same way?
[...as Gaseous Form or Statecraft]
Yes.
> Can (for example) my opponent's 10/10 Minion of the Wastes attack, be
> blocked by a White Knight and still do 8 damage to me?
Assuming it has Trample, yes that's right.
Stewart Potter
Dennis <Dsp...@pitt.edu> wrote in article
<7v9c1n$6qd$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>...
: I've been playing magic for some time now, but have just gotten serios on
: getting all the nitpick rules down. As I remember from somewhere,
: Protection reduces all damage to zero, doesn't prevent it (this might
have
: change) would that wording change affect trample because to assign lethal
: damage to say a 2/2 guy it has to do assign 2 damage, but if that is
reduced
: to 0 it didn't really assign lethal damage and doesn't trample. This
might
: of changed in 6th, but last time I looked up this on the web that's what
I
: was told, clarification would be helpful.
reducing damage to zero IS preventing it. That is to say, that things that
trigger on dealing damage WILL NOT trigger if the damage is "reduced to
zero".
This doesn't affect trample, the mistake here is this statement ... "to
assign lethal damage to say a 2/2 guy it has to do assign 2 damage".
Assigning damage IS NOT doing damage. The post Urza Saga trample rules
require the trampler to ASSIGN damage. The rules don't care what WILL
happen to the damage As long as the trampler meets the ASSIGNMENT
requirement. This is the reason why if a trampler can not ASSIGN damage to
a blocker (old Gaseous Form wording) it can ignore the blocker for the
purpose of Trample.
So, if the trampler is blocked by a 2/2 protected creature, the trampler
can assign 2 damage to the creature and 2 damage to the player just fine.
The trampler doesn't know or care that the protection will reduce the
damage to 0 later in the step.
:
: Thanks
:
-------
Stu
David DeLaney
> fus...@tcinternet.net wrote:
>> Always check your Oracle text. The effects are identical. Note also that
>> local enchantments no longer target their enchantees, so the wording you gave
>> would no longer work for Gaseous Form.
>
>enchant my Elvish Lookout with Regeneration?
Sure ... provided you get it -on- there without using a -spell or ability-
that targets the lookout. And fusili was talking specifically about
local enchantment -permanents-.
Local enchantment -spells- still target what they will be placed on; you
can't -cast- a Regeneration on your Elvish Lookout. But you can Replenish
one onto it, or Show and Tell it there, etc.
>And that I can't kill a
>Skulking Ghost or someone with Spinal Graft by enchanting them?
You can, as long as you're -casting the spell- to enchant them. If you
get a local enchantment onto your SG without -targetting- it with a spell
or ability, the enchantment stays there fine.
(This has _not_ changed from 5th Edition; what changed is the -words to
describe what's happening-. In 5E rules, a local enchantment permanent
'targetted' what it was sitting on ... but this wasn't a spell targetting
anything, or an ability targetting anything - it was one permanent directly
targetting another. Under 6E rules, this is instead referred to as the
local enchantment 'enchanting' what it sits on, and 'being attached to' it.)
>Also, regarding the main topic of this thread: does protection work the
>same way? Can (for example) my opponent's 10/10 Minion of the Wastes
>attack, be blocked by a White Knight and still do 8 damage to me?
Protection works the same as it used to also. (But _Trample_ changed, before
6E, when Urza's Saga first appeared.) The Minion tramples; thus, when combat
damage gets put -onto- the stack, the Minion must assign at least lethal
damage to the Knight - 2 (if the Knight's undamaged). The rest of its 10
combat damage may be assigned to the Knight or to you as opponent wishes;
usually he'll assign the other 8 all to you, since the 2 assigned to the
Knight will get prevented when it tries to resolve -off- the stack and be
-dealt to- the Knight.
David DeLaney
>I've been playing magic for some time now, but have just gotten serios on
>getting all the nitpick rules down. As I remember from somewhere,
>Protection reduces all damage to zero, doesn't prevent it (this might have
>change)
This changed; under 6E rules anything that used to 'reduce damage to zero'
now just plain prevents it. Including protection-from.
>would that wording change affect trample
Nope.
>because to assign lethal
>damage to say a 2/2 guy it has to do assign 2 damage, but if that is reduced
>to 0 it didn't really assign lethal damage and doesn't trample.
No, that's not the case. The damage is -assigned- when it gets put -onto-
the stack; it gets prevented when it resolves -off- the stack and tries to
get dealt. (That's also when it would get reduced to zero.) When you're
assigning Trample damage onto the stac, you totally ignore anything that
-will- happen later when the damage resolves off the stack - you just
check the toughness of the blocker(s) minus how much damage is already
on them, and what's left is "lethal damage" for that blocker and is how
much you have to assign to that blocker for any Trample to be assigned
also to defender.
Daniel W. Johnson
> Hang on, local enchantments don't target?
Right, they simply enchant. Of course, a local enchantment *spell* does
target the intended enchantee, the same as ever.
214.8d When playing a local enchantment spell, the player announces
the spell's target. The local enchantment comes into play attached to
the target permanent. If a local enchantment is coming into play
through any other means, its controller chooses a permanent when it
attempts to enter play. If no legal permanent is available, the
enchantment remains in the zone that it attempted to move from.
> Does this mean I actually CAN
> enchant my Elvish Lookout with Regeneration?
Not by casting Regeneration as a spell with Elvish Lookout as its
target, but other techniques (such as Enchantment Alteration) will work
to get it there.
> And that I can't kill a
> Skulking Ghost or someone with Spinal Graft by enchanting them?
Casting a local enchantment spell with one of those as its target will
still trigger the relevant ability. Other means of getting a local
enchantment on to one of them will still have no particular consequence.
> Also, regarding the main topic of this thread: does protection work the
> same way? Can (for example) my opponent's 10/10 Minion of the Wastes
> attack, be blocked by a White Knight and still do 8 damage to me?
Yes, your opponent can (and probably will) assign 2 damage to the White
Knight and 8 to you, regardless of the White Knight's protection.
502.9b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first
assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. If all those blocking
creatures receive lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as
its controller chooses among the blocking creatures and the defending
player. The controller need not assign lethal damage to all blocking
creatures but can't assign any damage to the defending player in this
case.
502.9e Assigning damage from a creature with trample considers only
the actual toughness of a blocking creature, not any abilities or
effects that might change the final amount of damage dealt.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
pano...@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W